1000 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Sukin, Good to hear from you and welcome to the list! Yes, I find having dhamma friends is invaluable....we can give each other reminders, disagree, share knowledge and sometimes have a good laugh! (I laughed when I read how Robert was sleeping peacefully while others were traching down the earthquake and then the 'What khun Sujin Would Say comments with Alex!) It seems that the regular English discussions in Bangkok and this list have started up at just the right time for you and it's good that you're not feeling too overwhelmed by all the terminology and detail. Don't hesitate to ask basic questions or make simple comments (often the best!). If you'd like to elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been binding me and of which I had not been aware' and what exactly has helped, that would be interesting. Yes, we never know when it'll be time for rebirth as a 'hungry ghost'...let's keep studying!! Sarah p.s. Is Sukin or Sukinder a male or female name? Jonothan and I'll be in Bkk for 2 days before and 2 days after the Cambodia trip (I forget the dates). Robert, sorry we'll be missing AGAIN. The only good thing is that at least you'll be around for the list when we're in Cambodia...not sure that internet cafes have hit Angkor Wat yet... > >Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, >I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in >buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a >little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I >attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been >looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize >how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the >mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion >group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence >I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person, >and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious >students of abhidhamma. >I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks, >my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to >say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more >knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and >now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here >have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been >binding me and of which I had not been aware. >Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your >knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my >kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' >again. Just kidding! >May panna abound, >Sukin. > > 1001 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 8:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Jonothan and Betty, I've been under the impression that, after nibbana, khandhas (sankhata) continue to arise, but are no longer subject to upaadaana. Am I wrong about this? Is it even pertinent to the original question? Thanks, mn --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Betty > > Have you had a chance to follow-up on this question? > I would be interestd > to hear more. Does the answer have to do with > nibbana being experienced > only as the object of citta, whereas other namas can > appear as object of > citta or can themselves be the citta/cetasika that > experiences an object? > > Jonothan > > > > > though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, > it does not > > > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned > realities, arising during it. > > > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises > at/after (?) attaining > >Nibbana. > > > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me > next week. For, how can > >panna > > > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if > panna IS a conditioned > >cetasika? > > > 1002 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 8:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Sukin, I'm in the same boat! I also came to this group by way of Robert's brilliant posts on another list, and I'm also pretty new to abhidhamma. I'm quite determined to learn it, though! I'm planning to go to Bangkok to this end next June. Hope to meet you then. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from you on the list. Anumodanaa, mn --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been > interested in > buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more > than read a > little bit here and a little there,up until six > months ago when I > attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time > on, I had been > looking for dhamma friends to associate with having > come to realize > how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at > least for the > mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on > another e-discussion > group and he introduced me to this group. I live in > Bangkok and hence > I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun > Sujin in person, > and to take part in the weekly discussion held here > with some serious > students of abhidhamma. > I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this > past four weeks, > my understanding hence is so little that I literally > had nothing to > say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is > so much more > knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can > say here and > now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of > the posts here > have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs > that have been > binding me and of which I had not been aware. > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make > best use of your > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know > if and when my > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a > 'hungry ghost' > again. Just kidding! > May panna abound, > Sukin. > > > 1003 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English too. > Our group should be in BKK on December 1st. > Are you going to be there as well? > It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna > intellectually in both languages. Dear O, Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are also many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can ask Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you get to Bangkok. I think you must have had a part in getting the tape copying machine for the foundation? I would recommend the tapes when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present date, starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us deeper and deeper. (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find, besides being very profound) For me it started out as a review, then I found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new things. By the way the young men who look after the taping get the casettes at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for only 20 bht.s apiece. I highly recommend them, just write to Khun Pracheun whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the foundation. Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to Thailand also, Amara 1004 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:21pm Subject: Re: Hello! > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' > again. Just kidding! > May panna abound, > Sukin. Hello! I'm glad you joined the discussions, you and Betty are the brightest new students of the DSSFBED group! I'm sure you will have many interesting questions and comments to contribute, and look forward to reading them soon, Amara 1005 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:36pm Subject: DSSFBEDG announcement Dear DG, Khun Sujin just called me to announce the cancellation of next Sarurday's class (Oct. 14), so please tell your friends, See you the weekend after, Amara 1006 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 11:29pm Subject: Re: Hello! Dear Sukin, Hello, Sukin. I'm new here, too. I'm looking forward to "see" you more in the forum. We're very fortunate that we're born as humans and as Buddhists, aren't we? Metta, Alex Tran ==================== --- "Sukinder Narula" wrote: > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. 1007 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > In the passage quoted, the Buddha is describing his > experience at a time before his enlightenment. Interesting and pertinent point! Of course, this sort of exercise would not have been necessary after nibbana. > It is > essentially, I believe, a description of samatha > bhavana. As we have discussed earlier, in order to > develop samatha, there must be the panna that knows > the difference between the cittas that are kusala > and > those that are akusala (the ‘twofold’ of the title). Understood... > So that when a ‘thought of > sense-pleasure/malevolence’ > (ie. akusala citta) arises, the panna can know it as > reality which ‘conduces to self-hurt and … to the > hurt > of others’ (ie. as akusala). understood... > At the moment that panna arises (‘while > reflecting’), > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > ‘subsides’). None at all? This is such a pleasant state that I'd begun (thanks to Robert's lucid comments on the subject) to think that I'm really only driving out a coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is clearly to be preferred over the former, I think this could be quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) conjecture is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it could become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have been happening for a long time... > But this is only momentary. The > akusala > citta keeps arising again and again (‘constantly’), > in > accordance with one’s accumulations, each time > becoming momentarily the object of the developed > panna. So the Buddha ‘kept on getting rid of the > thought, … driving it out, … making and end of it’. Understood. By the way, I've noticed that the term 'accumulations' is often used in the group's correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? Sankhaara? Both? Neither? > The important thing to notice is that the driving > out/subsiding is only momentary, and only occurs at > all if the requisite level of panna has been > developed > already. The question of how that panna is to be > developed is worthy of further study, I believe. I agree and intend to forge ahead with just this intention. > Jonothan > > PS If you are finding the list discussions useful, This list is the most useful thing I've found since first stumbling onto the buddhadhamma, twenty-nine years ago... > you may like to consider allowing some time on your > forthcoming stay in Thailand to visit Khun Sujin and > other friends in Bangkok for some live chat. Consider? At this point, it's the very reason I'm going. Now I'm just figuring out the logistics... Thanks again for your instruction! mn 1008 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!(welcome to our group) Swad dee ka khun Sukin Welcome to our group, like myself, I just joined the egroup last month,thanks to khun Amara :-)) The information from our group is enormous just like having the class in English every day. ( beside Thai classes that we have twice a week) as we're progressing in dhamma,we probably be even more hungry (like hungry ghost) than before : -)) (as least for me) cause we would definitely find out how much ignorance we have accumulated. anumodana and welcome aboard, O 1009 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!(welcome to our group) --- protectID wrote: > we're progressing in dhamma,we probably be even > more > hungry (like hungry ghost) than before : -)) (as > least for me) ...for me too! Dhammachanda, no? And thanks so much for feeding me the three books! I can't wait to get started... Anumodanaa, mn 1010 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Free Dhamma tapes Yes, thanks in advance! Mike Neae 2100 Third Avenue, #704 Seattle, WA 98121 --- Robert Kirkpatrick > If anyone > would like copies of these just send me a private > mail > and I will send them when I have time to record > them. > Robert 1011 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear K. Sukin, A big welcome to the group. It has been a wonderful experience for me to have you with us. For, when Achaan asked me to explain the basics to you, it was a terrific experience for me to test my own understanding. Do not feel intimidated: we are all learners and come to the group with thousands upon thousands of lifetimes of accumulations of vipaka to unfold. Therefore, while one of us might understand A, B,C, another might understand D, E, F which is not understood by the first person. So, we can each reinforce the others along the path as Robert so brilliantly does each time he sends out an e-mail. By the way, kusala kamma (do you mean vipaka?) will not run out unless you no longer perform wholesome actions (sobhana hetus), which is highly unlikely if you are making the effort to study Dhamma! See you when next we all meet. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! > Dear Sukin, > > I'm in the same boat! I also came to this group by > way of Robert's brilliant posts on another list, and > I'm also pretty new to abhidhamma. I'm quite > determined to learn it, though! I'm planning to go to > Bangkok to this end next June. Hope to meet you then. > In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from you > on the list. > > Anumodanaa, > > mn > --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been > > interested in > > buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more > > than read a > > little bit here and a little there,up until six > > months ago when I > > attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time > > on, I had been > > looking for dhamma friends to associate with having > > come to realize > > how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at > > least for the > > mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on > > another e-discussion > > group and he introduced me to this group. I live in > > Bangkok and hence > > I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun > > Sujin in person, > > and to take part in the weekly discussion held here > > with some serious > > students of abhidhamma. > > I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this > > past four weeks, > > my understanding hence is so little that I literally > > had nothing to > > say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is > > so much more > > knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can > > say here and > > now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of > > the posts here > > have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs > > that have been > > binding me and of which I had not been aware. > > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make > > best use of your > > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know > > if and when my > > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a > > 'hungry ghost' > > again. Just kidding! > > May panna abound, > > Sukin. > > > > 1012 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:12am Subject: Books Dear Robert, I`m back, the ' weekend member ' :-) Few days ago I received the books you sent me. I`m very thankful to your goodwill and interest in giving me the opportunity to improve my knowledge in the Dhamma. Thank you once more, Metta, Leonardo 1013 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Robert, > Dear leonardo, > I want to stress again how much I appreciate your > questions and comments and especially your careful > study of everyones comments. Your participation in > this forum is highly beneficial for all of us. Thank you > I guess my replies, which place so much stress on > anatta and uncontrollability, must seem to minimize > the importance of other aspects of the Buddha's > teaching, such as sila. A major reason for this is > because of my own experience and particular > predilictions for this aspect. If you go to Thailand > and meet with other members of the foundation you will > see that they stress sila much more. Speakers such as > Khun Tanit talk mainly about the different refinements > of sila and it is very beneficial to listen; one > leaves the hall so aware of the dangers of sense > desire; it can really condition "guarding the sense > doors". Khun sujin too often goes into the details of > sila - it really is a most important subject. I think we have the tendency most of the time to consider sila as a minor and preliminary step of the Path. In the first contact with Buddhism, usually thought that morality was some cultural and religious stuff. Nowdays, I think of those who understand sila are the ones who have more panna. Why ? Because as I have read, there are a mundane Right View and a Supra mundane Right-View. We have to begin our journey from where we are, and not where we think we are. There is a strong correlation between panna and sila. Even sila keeps itself in the mundane 'side' of the practice, it is the very foundation for panna arises. And there is no sila without some amount of understanding. > I see you have many works by bhikku bodhi (I had a > brief correspondence with him last month as I sent him > 150 copies of realities and concepts by sujin > boriharnwanaket which he requested)so I will refer to > a translation he made of the cariyapitaka (Net of > views p 300) "esteeming virtue as the foundation of > all achievements, as the soil for the origination of > all the Buddha qualities, the beginning, footing, head > and chief of all the dhammas issuing in buddhahood.". > Sila IS that important. However, I notice that > some/many people misunderstand about sila. They work > so hard at it but with an idea that "they" are keeping > sila. I know people who live a life of austerity, > celibacy and non-harming; much more than I even aspire > to, and yet even after many years they cling to wrong > practice. I like to point out these matters as I know > silabata upadana - clinging to sila and ritual - is a > great obstacle on the path. When we have this aspect > of wrong view it is hard to give it up. It feels right > because we change our life. Before learning about > Dhamma we were maybe careless, led a reckless life, or > had no real aim in life? Now we have rules to follow > and special difficult practices to try and master. Our > life has changed so much and we can see the difference > it makes- we are calmer and think more clearly. We > take these things as signposts that wisdom is also > growing but this may not be so. The Visuddhimagga > Xvii63 "his non-abandonment of that ignorance about > the four noble truths in particular prevents him from > recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called > the fruit of merit". And the samyutta nikaya ii 82 > "not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms the > formation of merit, forms the formation of demirit, > forms the formation of the imperturbable". Sila and > samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to > samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada > spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to > pleasant result, but is it not better to have > understanding as well. At every moment satipatthana is > being correctly developed there is a level of sila > that is higher than if sila is developed without > wisdom. Robert, the big problem I see is that every teaching is directed to a particular kind of individual. If it is not the case, the Budhha didn`t preach on a great variety of aspects, one time stressing very basic things - for example, what an husband/wife should do in relation to hi/her partner, etc.. There are many, many levels of understanding of the Dhamma. Some people will never grasp the more profound aspects of the Dhamma. So, sila is in itself a very good tool to 'survive' in samsara and more important to create more suitable conditions for panna arises. you`ve said: > " Sila and samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to > samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada > spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to > pleasant result, but is it not better to have > understanding as well." In a ultimate sense of the Dhamma you are correct, but what about the millions of men and women now around the world not having the opportunity to study the Dhamma i a right way ? For those people sila and also samatha will be of a great value. > On Bhikkhu Bodhis book "Nourishing the roots". I think > I emphasize different factors to Bodhi. He sees the > value of sila- good. I see the danger of clinging to > it. We need to be exposed to different > interpretations. I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of what sila means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give us some better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be ever better then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon our strong unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept or practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is panna itself isn`t it ? I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the real sila is conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our big ego - this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing annata. > He writes about cetana, volition. "This redirecting of > volition is initiated by voluntarily > undertaking the observance of principles of conduct > belonging to a > righteous order -- > by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the > good." > I would perhaps remind that cetana is part of > sankharakkhandha, that it "is not-self because > uncontrollable"Visuddhimagga xiv224. Although Cetana is a sankharakkhanda and of course not-self, I think the right conditions must be created - kusala cetanas is the aim. Do you think that there are conditions to a more profound understanding without sila ? Robert, I never put too much emphasis in any kond of morality :-) so for me it is alomost funny this conversation. > The next part of the sutta depends very much on the > understanding or misunderstanding of the reader. For > example the phrase > "For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition > need be exerted: "May I know and > see things as they really are." This is the natural > law, bhikkhus, that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really > are." > What type of concentration is this? It is the type of > concentration that arises with sammaditthi and that > takes a paramattha dhamma as object. And yes, exactly, > no need for 'deliberate volition", it all happens by > natural law. If we don't know the subtleties of the > path we can so easily construe this passage to mean > "get concentrated; become wise" but be unaware of the > different types of concentration. Excelent remark ... but for me "get concentrated with the right understanding and become wise" Thanks :-)) > The suttas I read 10 years past look different to me > now. The Atthasalini (translated as the expositor > p31)"the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets > a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view" > . This tends to happen with those who only study > sutta. Studying Abhidhamma has potential problems too- > a wrong grasp can lead even to madness if "he makes > his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions". > And if we don't study and develop at all then we will > go down to apaya anyway. Nothing is easy! > Robert Yes, unfortunately nothing is really easy .... thank you, Leonardo 1014 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the highlight of my day! Dear Sarah, Thank all of you to be conditions to my understanding. For sure I`m loving these discussions. I`m rooting my panna seeds here and you are helping me some much watering them ! Thank you, Metta, Leonardo Weekends` pupil :-] > Dear Leonardo, > > It's great when someone comes along like yourself who can really appreciate > and benefit from this list....we have certainly benefited enormously > ourselves. The highlight of my day is checking out the list in the evening > after I finish work! > > Robert and Amara also helped us a lot in getting the group started and as > you can see, continue to make great contributions... > > Thank you for taking part and for your great support and nice words....We > all appreciate your keen interest and study. It'll take me a little time to > catch up with your wonderful weekend posts! > > Sarah > > > > > > > Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this > > > group partly so that we could all have easy contact > > > since we live in many different countries. And also in > > > the hope of benefitting those who have the > > > accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep > > > into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than > > > the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this > > > confusing mass we call life. > > > > Thank you, Sarah and Jon ! > > > > > The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ? > > > >Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of > >it ! > > > >Mudita, > >Leonardo > > > 1015 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Alex, Thank you for your kind words and instructions ... > Even with the knowledge that everything happens because of > conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to plant some seeds in > the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because whatever I plant > and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, and will give me > other conditions to move on the Path. You write like a poet ! Metta, Leonardo 1016 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Robert, > Dear Leonardo, > Regarding the relationship of sila and wisdom I saw > something by Nina VG which might be of interest. > She writes in the "Perfections leading to > enlightenment": her wonderful book on the parami > "Khun sujin reminded us that when there is the > development of satipatthana there is no attachement to > the result of kusala, no clinging to an idea of : "i > should have more dana, I should have more sila, I > should have more calm"....If there is no development > of satipatthana we are actually in a dangerous > situation. there may be conditons for kusala citta > which observes sila, perhaps for a very long time, but > who knows his accumulations of akusala?.....We may > think we " I can observe the precepts" and delude > ourselves into thinking that we are so good, but not > notice the countless moments of akusala citta." How do you develop satipatthana ? (sorry for the basic question ) Metta, Leonardo 1017 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Robert, Very, very good ! Compassion springs in your mail ! Metta, Leonardo > Dear Leonardo, > I wrote > "we must remember that > > hatred > > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > > investigated." > > > > .You replied "Yes, but I have some > problems in facing > > that. Sometimes it is easy to me, > > but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in > > the mud ...." > > This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage > and search for ways other than the direct > understanding of paramattha dhammas. > The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is > the real one, can never make our life more difficult. > When I was practising wrongly- trying to bring up > sati, trying to control, I got very uptight - it > seemed that I was better off before I learnt about > Buddhism. I had a lot of pain but at least that showed > me I was on the wrong path. > > I really think I was so fortunate that things went > that way. It could have been worse - I might have been > a real success at the techniques I was trying- and > then, would I have been able to give them up? It is > more difficult to see the wrong path if it is > associated with lobha because this comes with pleasant > feeling; one is so happy about their "progress". > > Leonardo, I would say be glad when things get hard, > when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when > adhittha parami and patience parami can arise. They > can support panna and then you may be able to see that > akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely > dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be > understood. > > This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be > crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful > emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas > they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them > with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do > this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.) > > If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we > should know that this is only suppression . Even if we > succeed we have missed the chance to really understand > them. The other ways- even correct development of > samattha- can only suppress at best. Vis XV163 "The > perfect ones behave like lions. When they make > suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation > of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. > But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make > suffering cease and when ythey teach the cessation of > suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification > etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause." > There are so many different ways to avoid > understanding this moment. Go to the movies, walk in > the park, inject heroin, argue with our spouse, sit > and concentrate on the breath, whatever. (And yet all > during all these activities there are only namas and > rupas arising - they can be understood at those > moments too). > > In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the > Bodhisatta thought "why do I always dwell expecting > fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread > while keeping the same posture that I am in when it > comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came > upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had > subdued that fear and dread.While I lay down that fear > and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor > sat down til I ad subdued that fear and dread" > > Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do > bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it > really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not > "my anger, my hate". Satipatthana protects - it shows > us the difference between concept and reality. It is > because we take concepts such as people for real > things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a > story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha > dhamma. > The path is simple and direct - the understanding of > whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but > of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and > wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden > attachment to self that thinks "I am understanding, > this is my understanding': easy not to see this. And > hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to > understand. > Robert > > > 1018 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Dear Jonothan, > > Yes, there are many people > > that have understood the Dhamma > > spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged. > > Many of them were not 'meditating'... > > If all of this practice is wrong, how it > > comes to life? Why for many > > centuries monks as well lay people put too much > > emphasis in meditation? There are > > many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers, > > meditation classes and as far as > > I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some > > explanation on this? Any references? > > Just to clarify. I have not said that the things you > have mentioned are necessarily indicative of wrong > view. We cannot know the views of others unless we > have an opportunity to discuss those views with them. > > But to answer your question, there has always been and > will always be wrong practice, conditioned by wrong > view, among the followers of Buddhism. (Even at the > time of the Buddha this was so.) We cannot take > generally accepted views as being necessarily correct. > We need to check for ourselves whether what others do > or say is in accordance with the teachings as found in > the Tripitaka. I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule here but I would like to post a Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle. He has translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta (AN VI.46) about the dhamma-practitioners and meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is really an old one :-) Mahacunda Sutta Mahacunda AN 6.46 Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was living in Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable Mahacunda addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, friend." "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma that harass and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: 'Those meditators, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate[2]. Of what do they meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? What is their motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma, nor the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that harass and disparage the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: 'Those monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and unsteady, talkative and scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, with minds wandering and faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma for? On account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? What is their motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, nor the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the Dhamma speak delightful only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do not speak delightful to the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation monks, nor the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak delightful only to other meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the monks dedicated to the Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma, nor the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the Dhamma should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful manner to the meditation monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an extraordinary person who dwells having personally attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, friends, the meditation monks should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful manner to the monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should train yourself. For what reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an extraordinary person who has come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial sayings and truly sees." Notes: 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to the Dhamma are called this because they expound the teachings, and the monks who are meditators are called this simply because they meditate(or dwell in mental absorption). 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: This is a passage which is meant to be a disparaging description of one's meditation practice. It appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a remark to cause virtuous monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an opportunity, and in sutta 108 as a description of one's mental absorption while being obsessed by the five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is unknown to me, I have followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in rendering these with their literal meanings. 3. nibbana Sean > > For me, there is only the practice. > > Some people don't need anymore the > > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in > > my case I still need ... > > If it is the correct practice, we will never reach a > stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you mean > that although your practice will remain the same, you > hope to be able to carry it through into your daily > life, so that in that sense there would no longer be a > formal practice. This suggests the idea of changing > one's life from what it is now to what we think it > should be. This could be just another instance of > 'taking the outer aspect of the religion to the core > message of the teaching'! You too play chess, isn`t it ? :-) Leonardo 1019 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Thanks, Robert Leonardo > ---Dear Leonardo, > I think it was in the Jatakas where the Bodhisatta > deliberately stole. I think he was the advisor to a > king and highly respected. He wanted to see whether > people respected his wisdom more than sila. He found > out soon enough after they were dragging him to the > execution pit. He told his reasons and was released - > If I see it sometime I will give the reference. > > > > > Sometimes I`ve tried to > > do 'invite' hatred to come to > > my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having > > some anguish, I do sit to meditate > > in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of > > time I tried the same strategy > > without sitting, I couldn`t have the same > > understanding. > > Refer to my posting today under this heading- > especially the section where the bodhisatta overcame > fear and dread in whatever posture he was in. > > > > How is the > > difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do > > not how to express better ! > > What are the differences among yoniso > > manasikara x sati x simple bare > > attention ? > > > Good questions!! This is dhammavicaya, investigation > of Dhamma. At this level no one can tell us exactly > the difference. But the difference becomes clearer as > panna and sati progress. Sati of satipatthana only > arises in conjunction with a level of panna. Simple > bare attention can easily be a subtle type of > akusala- it is still "us" who is having bare > attention. > > > > What are > > the conditions to move to an thinking way of > > understanding to 'see things as really > > are' ? > > There are many levels of understanding; the foundation > of them all is correct intellectual understanding of > the Buddha's teaching. For that we need careful and > wide study and repeated consideration. And as Alex > noted discussing and questioning about difficult > points with the right people is also needed. There is > no other way. > This is just the beginning, but if it is done properly > it is right. It is far better than racing along > following the wrong path. > > > I said "No sati ? Then > > there > > > are other namas arising. > > Their characteristic can't be changed." > > > > You wrote "This last sentence puzzled > me. > " > Even when we experience something directly it has gone > already, forever, never to arise again. How can we > change something that has already disappeared. Why do > we worry about it? It is because of clinging. > > > > > > How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha > > ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to > > put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as > > you said, it is very much due to > > miccha ditti until we reach some more deep > > understanding, what should the correct > > approach ? - this is a koan ! > > See the comments Alex made and also where I said the > best efforts are those when we try and understand what > it was that he Buddha really taught and what the path > is and is not. > Robert > > > > > 1020 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Thank you Jonothan Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation > Leonardo, > > Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments. > > > I agree with you in part. I didn't mention > > this sutta for the sake of answer > > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to > > vipassana. My intention was only to > > put in reference that samatha is not out of > > Dhamma-Vinaya. > > Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is > certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be > studied). > > > ..... There are most authors > > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be > > incomplete without Samma-samadhi > > Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold > path. This means it is present at every moment of > path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is a > cetasika that arises at the moment of > path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika > ekaggata). > > > and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! > > This is where it gets interesting! My understanding > (although I have not looked at the relevant texts for > some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the > basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the texts > clearly indicate that the path can be realised without > attaining the jhanas (there are many references to > followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this > category). So that brings us to the crucial question- > > > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > > vipassana? What you have to > > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > > concentration that supports and > > conditions your Dhamma understanding? > > Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is > accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to > that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika, > the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6 > path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak > satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the > accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level. > The important thing to realise here is that there is > no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that > we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi > before there can be any satipatthana. > > > What does > >Khun Sujin teach about this? > > I hope that what I have said in this post reflects > what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a > translation of one of her talks on this subject I will > let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will > add to my comments. > > Jonothan > 1021 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Leonardo and Alex, I thought you might appreciate this parallel to Alex's good words: Venerable Ajahn Chah said... "Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass away, you can just be aware and let them run their course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise and water one and do not take care of the other, there is no question which one will grow and which one will die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Thank you for your kind words and instructions ... > > > Even with the knowledge that everything happens > because of > > conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to > plant some seeds in > > the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because > whatever I plant > > and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, > and will give me > > other conditions to move on the Path. > > You write like a poet ! > > Metta, > Leonardo > > 1022 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Free Dhamma tapes Dear Amara Thanks so much for the information can I order the tapes through pe Ell (Ivan's wife)? I think that was I did last time, I shall email her and have her take care it for me. Amara, again thanks for all your hard work and getting all of us working together without your creativity, hard work, and devotion in dhamma.we would not have been here:-)) with sincerely anumodana, O 1023 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:26pm Subject: Intro Hello Everyone, After having posted without introducing myself, I would like to introduce myself here (long---it may be enough for some of you to read this paragraph). My name is Kom Tukovinit, a highly mangled name from my original Thai name. I am also known as C, the third English alphabet, fashioned in a typical Thai nickname, although I normally sign my email as kom. I began taking some interests in Buddhism in 1994, after some stressful college years, but my interest level didn't really pick up until 1997, when I first met Khun Jack (and Khun O, Khun Oy, and other students in the San Francisco bay area). My meeting Khun Jack was a coincidental but fateful one: I was in a food expedition to the Thai temple in Fremont, and thereby ran into Khun Jack who was very eagar to start a studying group after a very successful visit from A. Sujin. If I hadn't met Khun Jack on that day, I wouldn't have been studying Dhamma now, as my connection to the Thai community was and still is quite low. My first 6-mth of studying Abhidhamma was trying at best. Despite my background as a Buddhist, Abhidhamma was new to me, it didn't make sense to me, and I just didn't make the connection of how it connected to everyday life. The inconsistent attendance of the studying group at the time didn't help either: I got behind and generally felt bad in joining the group as I was afraid of slowing people down. I started to lose interest, then came my 5-mth extended stay in Thailand, during which time I contemplated of becoming a monk (in the traditional 3-mth stay) in hope of maybe learning some insights. After some exploration of the different books that my parents had, a 7-day stay at Suan Mok, I decided a life of a monk was beyond my nature at this point. I appreciated the dhamma conversations immensely (at one point I experienced intense Piti, be it with Kusala or Akusala), but didn't appreciate the meditation sessions particularly as I didn't feel like I was learning anything in the sessions except that mosquitoes can be quite big and they could bite through multiple layers of clothing. Then came the three different sessions of "Vipassana" meditation: 2 7-day session, and another 10-day session. I had some bizzarre experience through the first 7-day session, and frankly, I was enjoying the attention and was interested in seeing where that would take me, and hence, the second 7-day session. During the second session, things became "normal" and I didn't learn much through sitting and walking, but did appreciate the lectures. However, I did decide to see if a third session, in a more "intense" environment, would yield other insights. The third session was a mixed-blessing. My 6 mth of studying Abhidhamma didn't do much improving my confidence about Buddha and his teachings. However, some of the thoughts and "considering the present dhamma" that went through my mind mostly in walking sessions did markly improve my confidence that such a person who taught such refined realities must be of a unique quality. I began making some intellectual (thinking) connections why it was important to study Abhidhamma. On the other hands, the session also increased my attachment to such a practice. After coming back to the bay area, I started studying with Khun Jack's group again with an increased level of intensity for my confidence in Buddha's teaching had improved. (Also, new members in the group also improved the interaction within the group). My understanding of how things worked was also at odd with A. Sujin's teachings and Suan Mok's teachings. I actually became somewhat angry about how things turned out: one way of reaching Nibhanna, and three different teachers teaching different things. Teachers' "special" qualities (including sign of Metta, Karuna, panna, jhana) don't count, as all the teachers' students claim that their teachers have some of them. Size of followings and who are the followers don't count, as there are too many of different people believing in quite unbelieveable (to me) things. Listening to A. Sujin and some of the discussions led by Khun Jack was hard at times, as it was against my guts feelings. However, I determined to press on with studying for three simple reasons: the tipitakas are as close as you can get to listening from the Buddha himself, present realities are provable (to oneself), and I was not such a person to say what I believe must be right. Since then (1 year later, with 2 weeks spent with A. Sujin and A. Santi), my understanding of how things work have changed (truly, it is changing day by day, possibly moment by moment). I have more (hopefully more correct) understanding of why A. Sujin teaches what she teaches. It is now more urgent than ever to understand dhamma as it truly is, to remind myself in so many different ways that life is short and precious: it is important to listen/consider about dhamma now---who knows when I might be able to do this again in the future. I appreciate the enthusiastic contribution from the people in this group. I am looking forward to hearing more about the questions/answers from everybody. 1024 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 3:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Accumulations means many different things to me. Somewhere, citta is explained to: 1) accumulate karma and kilesa: it accumulates Anusaya Kilesa (fine kilesa) regardless if it results in deed (by speech or body) 2) accumulate karma and vipaka: karma, except for specific circumstances, will certainly results in vipaka, and therefore, citta is the element that accumulates karma and vipaka 3) accumulate "Vasana" (habits ???): what you are accustomed to do, you will keep doing, throughout lifetimes (Paccatunissaya Pacaya???) When one says, one has the accumulation to study dhamma, it may mean: Because of the karma that was completed, one is: a) born in a happy plane, capable of understanding dhamma b) born at a time and place where there are dhamma friends, capable of clarifying dhamma Because of the accumulation to study dhamma, one will more likely to: a) stay in a place where there are dhamma friends b) associate oneself with the dhamma friends c) listen to and consider what the dhamma friends speak about dhamma d) does not have accumulation to believe in what would prevent further accumulations. --- "m. nease" wrote: Understood. By the way, I've noticed that the term 'accumulations' is often used in the group's correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? Sankhaara? Both? Neither? 1026 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:26pm Subject: Re: samattha, was meditation etc. Dear mn, Your reply to jonothons excellent post said " --- "> > > Jonothon wrote "At the moment that panna arises (‘while > > reflecting’), > > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > > ‘subsides’)". > >MN wrote " I'd > begun to think that I'm really only driving out a > coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala > dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is > clearly > to be preferred over the former, I think this could > be > quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) > conjecture > is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I > fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it > could > become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, > micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have > been > happening for a long time... > YES. Well put. Samattha is not the easy thing it is sometimes thought to be. It seems that we have reduced lobha. We no longer indulge in woman, wine and song. A new BMW is not even on our list of wants. We eat less frequently, watch minimal TV and so and so on. Maybe we even live in a cave in the jungle. Surely we must be reducing desire with all this? However, desire finds other objects, it becomes hidden (like a dangerous snake), or it clings to view, or it takes up wrong practice. If we want to correctly develop samattha it is most useful to know about all this so that we can detect lobha in all its forms. Robert 1027 From: shinlin Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear K.Sukin, Anumodana to your kusula vipaka on hearing the dhamma. Dear K. Robert, Anumodana to your kusula kamma in giving the dhamma to a friend. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinder Narula Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! | Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, | I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in | buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a | little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I | attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been | looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize | how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the | mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion | group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence | I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person, | and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious | students of abhidhamma. | I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks, | my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to | say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more | knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and | now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here | have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been | binding me and of which I had not been aware. | Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your | knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my | kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' | again. Just kidding! | May panna abound, | Sukin. | 1028 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study --- > leonardo wrote "I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule > here but I would like to post a > Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle." Post as much as you like, no rules. I was looking over some of my correspondence with Nina van Gorkom. By the way in case any of you feel that you are putting the egroup to an imposition by writing detailed comments this might put you at ease. I see one of my early letters (june 1991) ran to 21 A4 pages( handwritten). And was all questions! Her reply was just as long. Leornardo wrote "He has > translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta > (AN VI.46) about > the dhamma-practitioners and > meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is > really > an old one :-) > > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about this sutta. The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles translation of this term to one I read that had Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would be good to ask him to translate this also rather than just give a very brief note as he did. We are painfully short of commentarial translations whereas this sutta has been translated several times already. Nina translated part of it: The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas) The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > Mahacunda was living in > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > Mahacunda addressed the > monks: "Monks!" > > "Yes, friend." > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > the Dhamma that harass > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > 'Those meditators, they > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice for > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > the welfare, the good, and > the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > harass and disparage the > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > 'Those monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > unsteady, talkative and > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > with minds wandering and > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > to the Dhamma for? On > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > nor the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > for the welfare, the good, > and the well-being of gods and men. > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma speak delightful > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > not speak delightful to > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > monks, nor the monks who > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > Moreover, they do not > practice for the good and well-being of the > multitude, nor for the welfare, > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > delightful only to other > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > monks dedicated to the > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > to the Dhamma, nor the > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > do not practice for the > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > welfare, the good, and the > well-being of gods and men. > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma should train > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > manner to the meditation > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > dwells having personally > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > friends, the meditation monks > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > delightful manner to the > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees." > > Notes: > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > the Dhamma are called > this because they expound the teachings, and the > monks who are meditators > are called this simply because they meditate(or > dwell in mental absorption). > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > This is a passage which is > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > meditation practice. It > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > remark to cause virtuous > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > opportunity, and in sutta > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > while being obsessed by the > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > unknown to me, I have > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > rendering these with > their literal meanings. > > 3. nibbana > Sean > > > > > For me, there is only the practice. > > > Some people don't need anymore the > > > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, > in > > > my case I still need ... > > > > If it is the correct practice, we will never reach > a > > stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you > mean > > that although your practice will remain the same, > you > > hope to be able to carry it through into your > daily > > life, so that in that sense there would no longer > be a > > formal practice. This suggests the idea of > changing > > one's life from what it is now to what we think it > > should be. This could be just another instance of > > 'taking the outer aspect of the religion to the > core > > message of the teaching'! > > You too play chess, isn`t it ? :-) > Leonardo > > 1030 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 3:57am Subject: sila as foundation Dear Leonardo & friends, I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation of sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be limited by the level of sila established too. 1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. 2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change this good behaviour. 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the wholesome tendencies to grow. 4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can be very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa and moha? 5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation or a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations it shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no situations. 6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all have different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. 7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's understanding had to develop to this high level. Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without comprehending that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated with wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we give money, time or possessions? Thanks! Sarah > >We think "I will help them... I helped them." >We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like >"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little >Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- >but how well is this understood. > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not >self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the >aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and >unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes >volition. The moments of giving are conditioned >phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may >seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition >arose because of a complex interjunction of >conditions. >It needed accumulations of kusala from the past >otherwise such a volition could not arise. >We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will >just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not >to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can >we understand it is not us? >Giving is hindered when we live in the world of >concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; >lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there >is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The >sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the >idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong >practice and at the same time he eradicates >stinginess. >Robert > > 1031 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:57pm Subject: Thanks. Dear group members, Thanks for your warm welcome. I will send questions when the time comes, but for now I will try to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been...." which Sarah asked about. I do not know if I will be able to express myself well enough, since I do know for sure that I am most of the time very muddled and inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had always thought that 'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. Not only did I think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka for example, and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to the understanding of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a person *intent* on understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' method of meditation, but then would step by step correct him/herself and one day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she was looking in the right direction ie., inwards. I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss this moment with the aim of understanding future moments, I am conditioning myself to *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would be a time *arrived* and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* on understanding 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what citta & cetasikas will arise causing the mind to be diverted from *seeking* truth, and what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further diversions.' As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than not to know" and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you free', free from knots that have many faces. Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, to stop drinking alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was obviously necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because I was tired of my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order to be able to move on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the *end* of whatever activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order so that I may not be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking that it was more 'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and Mahayanists. I even told myself that it was alright for monks to eat meat, because they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had the freedom to choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in abundance. I realized and did expect of becoming attached to certain vegetarian foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four different kinds of cheese in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in which I was bound. Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the first day of my visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai called,when translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took a small piece of chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't like it but I didn't dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, but I take a small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel *free*. This is how I think,I have benefited from this group, and from this I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. What do you think? Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukin 1032 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:14am Subject: Somanassa vedana Dear Kom, I was considering your excellent qu about somanassa vedana which Robert has already given a good answer to. (Actually I'm beginning to realise by the good questions recently on the list that when people say they have only studied for a short time or are beginners that often they are just being modest!) Anyway just a couple of extra comments which anyone is welcome to comment on: Just as all visible objects are different from each other, appear differently but share certain characteristics, so it is with somanassa vedana (pleasant feeling) or and other realities. All kusala somanassa vedanas are different from each other but share certain characteristics which differentiate them from akusala somanassa vedanas. For example, kusala somanassa vedana is calm and not restless whereas akusala somanassa vedana is agitated and not truly calm. When the former appears, understanding understands its kusala nature at that moment. They may follow each other very closely but of course the latter are a lot more frequent! As understanding grows, it penetrates the characteristic appearing more 'deeply', recognizing the finer details more. It's not a matter of understanding somanassa vedana one minute and then understanding kusala or akusala the next. It's a matter of understanding the reality precisely as it is at that moment. Of course it's intellectual and blurry in the beginning, but gradually amongst those intellectual and blurry understandings a little more understanding grows that is a little more refined and understands a little more precisely for an instant only. This is the way that panna (wisdom) develops. In between there is thinking (not necessarily in words) and wondering and doubting, but these are all realities which can be known too. Then we may just get lost in the world of concepts and that's fine.....It's conditioned to be so at that time... Of course, as we have been discussing, if there is a 'selecting of the object' or wanting to DO something to develop more understanding of somanassa vedana or any other reality, it will be lobha and not panna at that moment. So we need to consider the details of many, many realities... Look forward to hearing more of your interesting comments/questions/replies! Sarah > How > > about experiencing the Somanassa Vetana in Kusala > > and Akusala cittas? > > > > Since the citta can experience only one element at a > > time, then the > > citta > > that experiences somanassa vetana cannot know if the > > citta with > > Somanassa Vetana is kusala or akusala? > >The cittas are arising and passing away so fast that >in the beginning we cannot at all distinguish just one >element(even though we know this from theory). However >there can be consideration in the present moment that >understands, just a very little, of different >characteristics. Thinking about experiencing just one >element and whether we can know it as kusala or >akusala is just that- thinking. > > >Or as I > > remember from one of > > Nina's books (can't do exact quote), that even > > Somanassa Vetana in > > Kusala and Akusala cittas have different > > characteristics? > > Yes, they are different. And this is importanat to >know. Thank you for reminding me. > 1033 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Intro Thanks for the outstanding intro, C--I'm glad to be associated with you and look forward to hearing more. mn 1034 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks./intro/practice Dear Sukin, So, since you met Khun Sujin and the others what you have learned is to nibble on chicken? (I am joking.) Seriously, wrong view and right view are such subtle matters - there may not be much outward change if someone develops right view,. However, as Sukinder indicates right view is freeing. There is less clinging to how we perceive 'we" should act. We learn to know our own accumulations as to how to live. Some may live austere lives - others not- but both can develop understanding. On the question of the other practices and teachers; it is not that everything they teach is wrong- some of what they say may be useful. Some teachers explain satipatthana wrongly but are good on metta perhaps. I have found passages in the Tibetan texts on contemplating death quite good. The more understanding grows the more clear it becomes what is right and what is wrong- and then one just leaves the wrong aside. It is good to understand the moment and see that there is no teacher in the ultimate sense. When we listen to someone we don't have to think "this is my teacher", or "this is not my teacher". Listen and consider. Do the words condition understanding of this moment with detachment from the idea of self? Do they emphasize that sati and panna are uncontrollable? Do they clearly explain the difference between concept and reality? Do their words lessen our clinging to getting quick results? Sukin, I was really surprised by the depth of the following: "I also had the firm belief that a > person *intent* on > understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' > method of > meditation, but then would step by step correct > him/herself and one > day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she > was looking in > the right direction ie., inwards. > I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss > this moment with > the aim of understanding future moments, I am > conditioning myself to > *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would > be a time *arrived* > and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* > on understanding > 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what > citta & cetasikas > will arise causing the mind to be diverted from > *seeking* truth, and > what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further > diversions.'" These are things that many never understand- it is most hard to see this. Anomodana. Robert --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > Dear group members, > Thanks for your warm welcome. > I will send questions when the time comes, but for > now I will try > to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have > been...." which Sarah > asked about. > I do not know if I will be able to express myself > well enough, since > I do know for sure that I am most of the time very > muddled and > inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; > Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had > always thought that > 'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. > Not only did I > think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by > S.N.Goenka for example, > and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to > the understanding > of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a > person *intent* on > understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' > method of > meditation, but then would step by step correct > him/herself and one > day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she > was looking in > the right direction ie., inwards. > I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss > this moment with > the aim of understanding future moments, I am > conditioning myself to > *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would > be a time *arrived* > and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* > on understanding > 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what > citta & cetasikas > will arise causing the mind to be diverted from > *seeking* truth, and > what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further > diversions.' > As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than > not to know" > and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you > free', free from > knots that have many faces. > Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, > to stop drinking > alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was > obviously > necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because > I was tired of > my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order > to be able to move > on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the > *end* of whatever > activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order > so that I may > not > be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking > that it was more > 'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and > Mahayanists. > I even told myself that it was alright for monks to > eat meat, because > they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had > the freedom to > choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in > abundance. > I realized and did expect of becoming attached to > certain vegetarian > foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four > different kinds of cheese > in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in > which I was bound. > Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the > first day of my > visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai > called,when > translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. > After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took > a small piece of > chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't > like it but I didn't > dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, > but I take a > small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel > *free*. > This is how I think,I have benefited from this > group, and from this > I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. > What do you think? > Sorry for the long post. > Metta, > > Sukin > > 1035 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear friends, Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of giving. Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good deeds with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha dhammas? With Metta, Alex >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 19:57:36 CST > >Dear Leonardo & friends, > >I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation >of >sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the >articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be limited >by the level of sila established too. > >1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. >first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. > >2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are >very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they >respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change >this good behaviour. > >3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the >wholesome tendencies to grow. > >4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any >knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments >of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can >be >very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely >attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of >what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, >how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa >and >moha? > >5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation >or >a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations >it >shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't >talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no >situations. > >6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all >have >different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the >term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember >stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when >they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. > >7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's >understanding had to develop to this high level. > > >Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without >comprehending >that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. > >Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated with >wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we give >money, time or possessions? Thanks! > >Sarah > > > > >We think "I will help them... I helped them." > >We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like > >"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little > >Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- > >but how well is this understood. > > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > > formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not > >self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the > >aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and > >unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes > >volition. The moments of giving are conditioned > >phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may > >seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition > >arose because of a complex interjunction of > >conditions. > >It needed accumulations of kusala from the past > >otherwise such a volition could not arise. > >We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will > >just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not > >to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can > >we understand it is not us? > >Giving is hindered when we live in the world of > >concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; > >lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there > >is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The > >sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the > >idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong > >practice and at the same time he eradicates > >stinginess. > >Robert > > 1036 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Intro Thanks Kom for all the interesting info. and background. If any of the more long-term members lurking quietly would like to (or are willing to!) give a short or long intro, I'm sure it would be appreciated by all! Sarah > >Hello Everyone, > >After having posted without introducing myself, I would like to >introduce >myself here (long---it may be enough for some of you to read this >paragraph). My name is Kom Tukovinit, a highly mangled name from my >original Thai name. I am also known as C, the third English >alphabet, >fashioned in a typical Thai nickname, although I normally sign my >email as >kom. > 1037 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Alex, That is a good example and great question. Do you have any ideas yourself? Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming > against the current. > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents > used to force her > siblings and herself to give so that they might > develop the habit of giving. > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks > like doing a good deeds > with the help from others. In the above case, it > seems that the children > may develop resentment, more attachment to the given > away objects, conceit, > etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > What should we do to educate a child in the light > of paramattha dhammas? > > With Metta, > Alex > > 1038 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Robert, No, I don't. ;-) I heard from the archive that you have some wonderful children and that you are a fabulous father. Please share your experience with us. Thank you. AT =========== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Alex, >That is a good example and great question. Do you have >any ideas yourself? >Robert >--- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming > > against the current. > > > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents > > used to force her > > siblings and herself to give so that they might > > develop the habit of giving. > > > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks > > like doing a good deeds > > with the help from others. In the above case, it > > seems that the children > > may develop resentment, more attachment to the given > > away objects, conceit, > > etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > > > What should we do to educate a child in the light > > of paramattha dhammas? > > > > With Metta, > > Alex > > > > 1039 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > Thanks so much for the information > can I order the tapes through pe Ell (Ivan's wife)? Dear O, Please do, I think she will be very happy to do it, actually Ivan is on this very list, although I think he usually prefers live arguments in the English discussion group at the foundation!!! Khun Ell controls the tape machine for us sometimes as well as takes care of everyone plus the floral arragements for the whole foundation- I call her the bearer of fragrances personally. I would like also to anumodana with all your kusala cetana and for the handsome clocks as well as the tape copying machines your group sent to the foundation, the latter has been most useful and fast, about three minutes to copy a one hour tape, as I understand! Many people have benefited from both the Thai and English cassettes, this is indeed great kusala! Amara 1040 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:48pm Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear > 3) accumulate "Vasana" (habits ???): what you are accustomed to do, you > will keep doing, throughout lifetimes (Paccatunissaya Pacaya???) Dear Kom, First, it's great to hear from you! If I remember correctly "Vasana" according to the book 'Summary' is improper behavioral and verbal habits (including facial tics, unintentional exclamations, and things like leaping over ditches because of a former lifetime as a monkey of a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka) which can be eradicated by none but the Sammasambuddha. Hope this helps, Amara 1041 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:00pm Subject: satipatthana, how to? Leornardo asked "How do you develop satipatthana ? (sorry for the basic question )" Dear leonardo, Most definitely not a basic question and thanks for asking - I think a few of the group will be interested in this topic. Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. It can only be heard about during the rare times of a Buddha sasana. To understand its development we need to hear many details of the teachings; even then no guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to properly develop it (in this life). In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says “In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc.” We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw that the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try to concentrate on some of these : focus attention on body or feelings or whatever. However, as the quote from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to certain objects does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just a cetasika - so ephemeral. If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know that each moment is conditioned by so many different conditions and that not even one of those conditions is controllable even for an instant. You might think “ but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can decide to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;” No this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a Buddhist – can you stop believing in Buddhism. Only if there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- can you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, that are also conditioned. Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes so well about this: “Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions” He earlier explains that the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. These are the perception of seeing the ugly as beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). Satipatthana sees realities as they really are – ugly, dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana – long, long time development) is investigating and learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as they are. Does this sound easy? Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are we not sure what type of citta experienced it? Do we think it is “us” who is experiencing feeling? Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana – that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle aspects of vipallasa. Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after that moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just so many different types of citta. Now I am typing, the cittas that condition the movement of the hand are not vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching and smelling. These are all realities they are happening now again and again. How much do we know about them? They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone already. The development of satipatthana is about seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is short- we are not in the meditation center now but namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas – but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we need volition. Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce yourself into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert or leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the rapid change and the different elements doing their functions. It is like a movie - merely different frames joined together and giving the appearance of life. None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. I know the more I learn about these things the more I see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not feel that they can be quickly erased - the path seems much longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely I feel happier and more relaxed about it all. Understanding works its way once "we" get out of the way. No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. That is satipatthana. If there are not the conditions then listen more, consider more- this is essential. Learn about seeing and color- do you think this computer is real, or is there a level of panna that knows only color and hardness? This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the only time that the the deep teachings on khandas, dhatus, ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya etc. can be heard. It would be regretable not to listen. Thank you again for giving me the chance to reflect on all this. Robert 1042 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 0:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert, Leonardo and friends, Like usual, this post from Robert is very helpful: "... The development of satipatthana is about seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is short- we are not in the meditation center now but namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas – but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we need volition. Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say 'reduce yourself into one moment'." ... "None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. I know the more I learn about these things the more I see that lobha and moha are very common." ... "Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. That is satipatthana." Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, and then dies out. When a certain of conditions are met, the corresponding cetasika will appear, just like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. That's why it's not a technique that we can learn at a meditation center. A few days ago, I noticed that my reaction to some abusive words from another driver on the road. I realized that it was only the cetasika of anger because my ear registered the sound, my hearing consciousness cognizes them as abusive words, and they were directed to me. It was amazing to see how the mind and the cetasika reacted. Perhaps, at that moment, lurking in the background, I still had some subtle thought that it was this I who saw the nama and rupa. With Metta, AT 1043 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks. Sawad dee ka khun Sukin your post is very very interesting.... As we know food is the most attachment to many people compare with the others substances such as alcohol, drugs and tabacco.it is the most difficult thing to be detaching from. There's always controversy between vegetarians and meat eaters As we progress in dhamma,(when panna is develop) one will know within oneself that "taste" is also arises and fall away rapidly as well as the other object through the other door ways:-)) uncontrollable condition whether we accepted or not.. There for, It isn't our job to try to detached from... I want to refer to the kammasakata panna (the knowledge of one's own kamma) humans and all animals has it's own kamma, whether we eat meat or vegetable should only strictly be for our health, not because we're clinging to the "taste" well I wonder how many people can do that? We all know the different from good and bad, healthy and unhealthy but how many can control our desired from arising??? Yet, the only way out is "to study" as one's progressing in develop panna, panna shall take care of everything. I hop this is not offending your point of view anumodana and again welcome aboard, O 1044 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:05:48 -0700 (PDT) > >Venerable Ajahn Chah said... > >"Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to >wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass >away, you can just be aware and let them run their >course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise >and water one and do not take care of the other, there >is no question which one will grow and which one will >die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) A wonderful parable. Thank you. Metta, AT 1045 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- > > Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, > and then dies out. When a > certain of conditions are met, the corresponding > cetasika will appear, just > like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. Very good Alex> > > That's why it's not a technique that we can learn > at a meditation center. > A few days ago, I noticed that my reaction to some > abusive words from > another driver on the road. I realized that it was > only the cetasika of > anger because my ear registered the sound, my > hearing consciousness cognizes > them as abusive words, and they were directed to me. > It was amazing to see > how the mind and the cetasika reacted. Perhaps, at > that moment, lurking in > the background, I still had some subtle thought that > it was this I who saw > the nama and rupa. This is the sort of investigation that needs to be done over and over. And without any hope of having a quick result. Just a small correction:hearing consciousness only hears, the later minddoor processes understand the meaning. > 1046 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > > Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, > > and then dies out. When a > > certain of conditions are met, the corresponding > > cetasika will appear, just > > like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. > > Very good Alex> ... > This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > done over and over. And without any hope of having a > quick result. Robert, doesn't this 'hope' (bhava tanha, maybe?) also arise and subside uncontrollably, according to conditions? 1047 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:50am Subject: Venerable Ajahn Chah Thank you m. nease ! Leonardo > Dear Leonardo and Alex, > > I thought you might appreciate this parallel to Alex's > good words: > > Venerable Ajahn Chah said... > > "Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to > wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass > away, you can just be aware and let them run their > course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise > and water one and do not take care of the other, there > is no question which one will grow and which one will > die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) 1048 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear Robert, > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about > this sutta. > The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the > translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles > translation of this term to one I read that had > Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of > monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus > had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have > been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. > > The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga > bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary > person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because > they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > > I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would > be good to ask him to translate this also rather than > just give a very brief note as he did. We are > painfully short of commentarial translations whereas > this sutta has been translated several times already. > > Nina translated part of it: > The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are > often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. > Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless > (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body > i.e.cetasikas) > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) > penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas > (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas > (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta > (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with > vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which > penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level > of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. Thank you for posting these explanations ! Leonardo > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > > Mahacunda was living in > > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > > Mahacunda addressed the > > monks: "Monks!" > > > > "Yes, friend." > > > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > > the Dhamma that harass > > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > > 'Those meditators, they > > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice for > > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > > the welfare, the good, and > > the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > > harass and disparage the > > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > > 'Those monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > > unsteady, talkative and > > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > > with minds wandering and > > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > > to the Dhamma for? On > > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > > nor the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice > > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > > for the welfare, the good, > > and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma speak delightful > > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > > not speak delightful to > > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > > monks, nor the monks who > > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > > Moreover, they do not > > practice for the good and well-being of the > > multitude, nor for the welfare, > > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > > delightful only to other > > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > > monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > > to the Dhamma, nor the > > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > > do not practice for the > > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > > welfare, the good, and the > > well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma should train > > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > > manner to the meditation > > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is > > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > > dwells having personally > > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > > friends, the meditation monks > > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > > delightful manner to the > > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > > train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > > extraordinary person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees." > > > > Notes: > > > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > > the Dhamma are called > > this because they expound the teachings, and the > > monks who are meditators > > are called this simply because they meditate(or > > dwell in mental absorption). > > > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > > This is a passage which is > > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > > meditation practice. It > > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > > remark to cause virtuous > > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > > opportunity, and in sutta > > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > > while being obsessed by the > > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > > unknown to me, I have > > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > > rendering these with > > their literal meanings. > > > > 3. nibbana > > Sean > > > > 1049 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear Leonardo, Thought you might also appreciate this look at the way different 'types' got along in the Buddha's day--if you haven't read it before--Sean's great translation reminded me of it. It's from Sanghadisesa (pardon my spelling!) VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, translated by I.B. Horner: "Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those monks who belonged to the same company. For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma with one another." For those monks who were musers he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will not disturb one another." For those monks who lived indulging in low talk and who were athletic he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These reverend ones will live according to their pleasure." Pretty smart seven-year old! How often do we see this kind of equanimity towards those of a different bent today? --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in > 1992)about > > this sutta. > > The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the > > translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer > Whittles > > translation of this term to one I read that had > > Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups > of > > monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana > Bhikkhus > > had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot > have > > been Arahant though or they would not have > disputed. > > > > The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga > > bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as > "extraordinary > > person who has > > > come to know and pierced the profound and > beneficial > > > sayings and truly > > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous > because > > they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > > > > I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It > would > > be good to ask him to translate this also rather > than > > just give a very brief note as he did. We are > > painfully short of commentarial translations > whereas > > this sutta has been translated several times > already. > > > > Nina translated part of it: > > The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they > are > > often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. > > Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the > deathless > > (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body > > i.e.cetasikas) > > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to > Dhamma) > > penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas > > (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas > > (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta > > (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together > with > > vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which > > penetrates by considering, and also panna on the > level > > of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > > > Thank you for posting these explanations > ! > Leonardo > > > === message truncated === 1050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > ... > > Robertt wrote:> This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > > done over and over. And without any hope of having > a > > quick result." > > Mike wrote "Robert, doesn't this 'hope' (bhava tanha, maybe?) > also > arise and subside uncontrollably, according to > conditions? " Yes it does . What happens is that as panna understands that hope (tanha) for quick result is counterproductive the tendency for it(this type of tanha) to arise gradually subsides . The conditions for it are no longer so prevalent. This is a more gross example. Supposes someone thought that if they went down to the river and put their head under the water ten times a day that this would lead to nibbana. They do this for many years until they hear that this is wrong practice. They understand and stop doing it. No conditions any more for the type of akusala cetana that conditions such behaviour. > > Robert > 1051 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Robert, Your writings are so impressive. Thanks once more, Metta, Leonardo > Leornardo asked "How do you develop satipatthana ? > (sorry for the basic question )" > > Dear leonardo, > Most definitely not a basic question and thanks for > asking - I think a few of the group will be interested > in this topic. > Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. It > can only be heard about during the rare times of a > Buddha sasana. To understand its development we need > to hear many details of the teachings; even then no > guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to properly > develop it (in this life). > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of the > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw that > the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, > citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try > to concentrate on some of these : focus attention on > body or feelings or whatever. However, as the quote > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > certain objects does not lead to detachment from the > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just > a cetasika - so ephemeral. > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know > that each moment is conditioned by so many different > conditions and that not even one of those conditions > is controllable even for an instant. You might think " > but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can decide > to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;" No > this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a > Buddhist - can you stop believing in Buddhism. Only if > there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- can > you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex > conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . > Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, that > are also conditioned. > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > xxvii writes so well about this: "Because the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions" He earlier explains that > the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. > > In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) > p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. > These are the perception of seeing the ugly as > beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as > permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa > are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro > satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). > Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - ugly, > dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual > seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana - > long, long time development) is investigating and > learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as > they are. Does this sound easy? > Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of > feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It > is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day > long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? > Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it > experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are > we not sure what type of citta experienced it? > > Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing feeling? > Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - > that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think > I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we > bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these > strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle > aspects of vipallasa. > > Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after that > moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just so > many different types of citta. Now I am typing, the > cittas that condition the movement of the hand are not > vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka > cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching and > smelling. These are all realities they are happening > now again and again. How much do we know about them? > They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone > already. The development of satipatthana is about > seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is > short- we are not in the meditation center now but > namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this > moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and > considering conditions are built up to gradually let > go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have > accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for > sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. > Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the > meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas - > but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we > need volition. > > Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce yourself > into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert or > leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the rapid > change and the different elements doing their > functions. It is like a movie - merely different > frames joined together and giving the appearance of > life. None of the elements, the different cetasikas > and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do > this or that. They are merely carrying out there > function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or > to crave and so many other elements with different > functions. > > I know the more I learn about these things the more I > see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not feel > that they can be quickly erased - the path seems much > longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely I > feel happier and more relaxed about it all. > Understanding works its way once "we" get out of the > way. > No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. > Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there > are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in > conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other > kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. > That is satipatthana. > If there are not the conditions then listen more, > consider more- this is essential. Learn about seeing > and color- do you think this computer is real, or is > there a level of panna that knows only color and > hardness? > This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the only > time that the the deep teachings on khandas, dhatus, > ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya etc. > can be heard. It would be regretable not to listen. > > Thank you again for giving me the chance to reflect on > all this. > Robert > > 1052 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:04pm Subject: Re: satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert, > This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > done over and over. And without any hope of having a > quick result. Thanks for your encouragement. And oh yes, without any hope or expectation. That's the key for me. > Just a small correction:hearing consciousness only > hears, the later minddoor processes understand the > meaning. Thank you again. With Metta and fun, AT 1053 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear leornardo, My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. My understanding is almost all at the theoretical level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms writings and letters - but how well I really understand them is another matter. So many levels of understanding even at the theoretical level. Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is dangerous. Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. Robert --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > Your writings are so impressive. > > Thanks once more, > Metta, > Leonardo > > > > > Leornardo asked "How do you develop > satipatthana ? > > (sorry for the basic question )" > > > > Dear leonardo, > > Most definitely not a basic question and thanks > for > > asking - I think a few of the group will be > interested > > in this topic. > > Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. > It > > can only be heard about during the rare times of a > > Buddha sasana. To understand its development we > need > > to hear many details of the teachings; even then > no > > guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to > properly > > develop it (in this life). > > > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 > paragraph > > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of > the > > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes > place > > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage > (prior to > > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with > one > > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > > We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw > that > > the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, > feelings, > > citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to > try > > to concentrate on some of these : focus attention > on > > body or feelings or whatever. However, as the > quote > > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. > We > > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > > certain objects does not lead to detachment from > the > > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is > just > > a cetasika - so ephemeral. > > > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we > know > > that each moment is conditioned by so many > different > > conditions and that not even one of those > conditions > > is controllable even for an instant. You might > think " > > but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can > decide > > to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;" > No > > this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a > > Buddhist - can you stop believing in Buddhism. > Only if > > there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- > can > > you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex > > conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . > > Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, > that > > are also conditioned. > > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > > xxvii writes so well about this: "Because the > > functions of the elements give rise to the > concepts of > > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that > has > > to be taken while the deed is being performed to > its > > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these > four > > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their > existence. > > But the elements have not the time or span of > duration > > to carry out such functions" He earlier explains > that > > the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. > > > > In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, > PTS) > > p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of > view. > > These are the perception of seeing the ugly as > > beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent > as > > permanent and the not self as self. These > vipallasa > > are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro > > satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). > > Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - > ugly, > > dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a > gradual > > seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana > - > > long, long time development) is investigating and > > learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas > as > > they are. Does this sound easy? > > Perhaps we think we already know the > characteristic of > > feeling. After all feeling arises with every > citta. It > > is arising now. All of us experience it almost all > day > > long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? > > Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but > is it > > experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or > are > > we not sure what type of citta experienced it? > > > > Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing > feeling? > > Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - > > that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we > think > > I am having insight? Do we think sati is something > we > > bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these > > strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle > > aspects of vipallasa. > > > > Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after > that > > moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just > so > > many different types of citta. Now I am typing, > the > > cittas that condition the movement of the hand are > not > > vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka > > cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching > and > > smelling. These are all realities they are > happening > > now again and again. How much do we know about > them? > > They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone > > already. The development of satipatthana is about > > seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is > > short- we are not in the meditation center now but > > namas and rupas are arising and passing away at > this > > moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough > and > > considering conditions are built up to gradually > let > > go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have > > accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for > > sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are > now. > > Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the > > meditation center there can be awareness of > dhammas - > > but not by clinging and trying and thinking that > we > > need volition. > > > > Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce > yourself > > into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert > or > > leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the > rapid > > change and the different elements doing their > > functions. It is like a movie - merely different > > frames joined together and giving the appearance > of > > life. None of the elements, the different > cetasikas > > and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to > do > > this or that. They are merely carrying out there > > function - which is to know, or to hear, or to > see, or > > to crave and so many other elements with different > > functions. > > > > I know the more I learn about these things the > more I > > see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not > feel > > that they can be quickly erased - the path seems > much > > longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely > I > > feel happier and more relaxed about it all. > > Understanding works its way once "we" get out of > the > > way. > > No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. > > Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If > there > > are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in > > conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the > other > > kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it > is. > > That is satipatthana. > > If there are not the conditions then listen more, > > consider more- this is essential. Learn about > seeing > > and color- do you think this computer is real, or > is > > there a level of panna that knows only color and > > hardness? > > This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the > only > > time that the the deep teachings on khandas, > dhatus, > > ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya > etc. > > can be heard. It would be regretable not to > listen. > > > > Thank you again for giving me the chance to > reflect on > > all this. > > Robert > > 1054 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert: I agree that sometimes we're overestimating our ability in many ways, but when it comes to dhamma it's hard (at least for me) to think that someone who respond spontaneously and thoroughly with their explanations would not we wise as we assume. in any way, I do appreciated your contributions,comment,etc.. and especially your knowledge in dhamma. keep up with your kusala jitta and panna jatasika:-)) Sincerely, O 1055 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:52pm Subject: Traps along the way Dear Robert, sounds like a game my students play on the computer trying to avoid the obstacles in the water on a trip down the Amazon...and yes it is like that...mana one minute, then lobha, then micha ditthi, moha, issa etc etc....all popping up ready to attack the blind...! Sarah >Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is >dangerous. >Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. >Robert 1056 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear leornardo, > My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. Dear Robert, As I understand it, panna is just panna--not yours, or Acharn Sujin's, or Leonardo's, certainly not 'mine'--not even the Buddha's. Paticcasamupada is just the way things are, even when a Buddha doesn't arise in the world to discover it. However, most of us, most of the time, have no choice but to deal with the world on a conventional level. Isn't in better, even necessary, to entertain the illusion of 'a good teacher's' panna on the way to the experience of deeply penetrated panna? That is, isn't it necessary (for most of us, most of the time), to continually exchange coarser avijjaa for more refined avijjaa? Maybe I'm wrong in this. If not then, within certain limits, isn't it OK to venerate 'supatipanno, ujuptipanno, nayapatipanno, saamiicipatipanno bhagavato saavaka sangho'? If so, then I'll continue to be impressed with 'your' and 'Acharn Sujin's', and so many 'others'' in 'this group's' panna--and thanks again to you all... mn 1057 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks. Dear Sukin, This is interesting...'free from the knots that have many faces'..a good expression. When I first met Khun Sujin, I was strictly vegetarian (and had been for years) and as we went out to different houses for lunches in Sri Lanka, I would be asking what the soup stock was and whether I could have some simple vegetables. After a couple of days, Khun Sujin just served me a little of the dishes already presented and told me (in her pleasant way ) something to the effect that consideration to the hostess and being easy to please was more important than my other concerns. I was shocked, but just ate and was no longer vegetarian! Maybe this is like the example of 'forcing' the kid to be generous. Sometimes it's the best way! Unfortunately she's never been able to help me get over my allergy to chillis..... I just feel I'm dying when I eat a chilli and no amount of consideration for the hostess helps! Thanks again, Sarah >Dear group members, >Thanks for your warm welcome. >I will send questions when the time comes, but for now I will try >to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been...." which Sarah >asked about. >I do not know if I will be able to express myself well enough, since >I do know for sure that I am most of the time very muddled and >inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; >Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had always thought that >'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. Not only did I >think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka for example, >and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to the understanding >of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a person *intent* on >understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' method of >meditation, but then would step by step correct him/herself and one >day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she was looking in >the right direction ie., inwards. >I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss this moment with >the aim of understanding future moments, I am conditioning myself to >*not look now*.Any formal meditation session would be a time *arrived* >and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* on understanding >'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what citta & cetasikas >will arise causing the mind to be diverted from *seeking* truth, and >what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further diversions.' >As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than not to know" >and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you free', free from >knots that have many faces. >Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, to stop drinking >alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was obviously >necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because I was tired of >my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order to be able to move >on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the *end* of whatever >activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order so that I may >not >be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking that it was more >'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and Mahayanists. >I even told myself that it was alright for monks to eat meat, because >they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had the freedom to >choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in abundance. >I realized and did expect of becoming attached to certain vegetarian >foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four different kinds of cheese >in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in which I was bound. >Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the first day of my >visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai called,when >translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. >After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took a small piece of >chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't like it but I didn't >dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, but I take a >small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel *free*. >This is how I think,I have benefited from this group, and from this >I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. >What do you think? >Sorry for the long post. > Metta, > >Sukin > > > > > 1058 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 3:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Alex, With small children, I find, often you have to just give strict rules, 'don't touch the heater, do this, do that, share the sweets etc'. As they get older, they tend to question the rules if they don't make sense and one can begin to include more explanation. Some children readily appreciate that it's good to give and share, others resent it and don't agree. Sometimes it's still appropriate to 'force' them. I have a rule in my classrom that anything edible has to be shared around. Some children just don't like it, but they all understand the rules. Each child is different, some will respond well to being 'forced' to give when they are young and establish good habits. Some will truly resent it and make it an excuse not to give in adult life. I have twins in one class and no one here will be surprised to read they are opposites in this regard. Ken just gives without being asked and looks for opportunities to help others. Villy, the twin brother pulls a face no matter what explanation I give. I believe kids need, respect and like rules, but as they get older it's good to give whatever dhamma explanation at whatever level they can appreciate. They can learn to be considerate, polite and treat others as they would like. They can be nurtured in an environment where dhamma books and talks are the norm and slowly (like us) may begin to understand a little more about realities and the value of developing all kinds of kusala. Sometimes they need to hear it from someone other than the parent too! Some kids have the opposite problem: they are inclined to share but are discouraged by their parents! I don't know if this helps at all... Sarah p.s I teach children from 6 yrs - 19 yrs old, 6 days a week, 11 months a year and have done so for decades! (I'm an English teacher and psychologist)....fitting in this list is my challenge right now! >Dear friends, > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her >siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of >giving. > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good >deeds >with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children >may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, >etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha >dhammas? > >With Metta, >Alex > > > >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation > >Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 19:57:36 CST > > > >Dear Leonardo & friends, > > > >I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation > >of > >sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in >the > >articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be >limited > >by the level of sila established too. > > > >1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice >i.e. > >first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of >self. > > > >2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or >are > >very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they > >respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may >change > >this good behaviour. > > > >3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the > >wholesome tendencies to grow. > > > >4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any > >knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the >moments > >of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can > >be > >very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more >finely > >attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much >of > >what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a >friend, > >how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa > >and > >moha? > > > >5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation > >or > >a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations > >it > >shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we >don't > >talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no > >situations. > > > >6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all > >have > >different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use >the > >term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember > >stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when > >they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. > > > >7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's > >understanding had to develop to this high level. > > > > > >Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without > >comprehending > >that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer >actions. > > > >Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated >with > >wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we >give > >money, time or possessions? Thanks! > > > >Sarah > > 1059 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:30pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation > p.s I teach children from 6 yrs - 19 yrs old, 6 days a week, 11 months a > year and have done so for decades! (I'm an English teacher and > psychologist)....fitting in this list is my challenge right now! Dear Sarah, I have often wondered how a psychologist would view Buddhism, in fact I think within the Sankha there is the rule that any bhikkhu who has transgressed the vinaya has to proclaim it to his group or something like that which sounded to me much like modern group therapy or whatever. What are your views on this? Thanks in advance, Amara 1060 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu --- "m. nease" wrote: > I've been under the impression that, after nibbana, > khandhas (sankhata) continue to arise, but are no > longer subject to upaadaana. Am I wrong about this? Mike As we know, citta experiences nibbana (momentarily) at each of the stages of enlightenment. Clinging to sensous objects (kamupadana) is eradicted only at the stage of anagami. So I suppose this means that the kkhandas continue to be the object of clinging for the sotapanna. Jonothan 1061 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:59pm Subject: Re: Thanks. --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > ...Khun Sujin just served me a little of the dishes already > presented and told me (in her pleasant way)something to the effect > that consideration to the hostess and being easy to please was more > important than my other concerns Dear Sarah, Sukinder, et al., I don't want to stir up a vegetarianism controversey (they can be extraordinarily passionate and long-lived!), but I'd like to recommend Dr. Viktor Gunasekara's superb article @ http://members.nbci.com/budtoday/english/veg/009-budveg.htm 1062 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Mike > By the way, I've noticed that the term > 'accumulations' is often used in the group's > correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? > Sankhaara? Both? Neither? Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so long that we forget they are not standard use! Thanks for raising this. "Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various tendencies we all have that make up the distinct personality and character by which we are conventionally known. For example, our preferences for particular tastes or colours, our good and bad qualities, the way we walk and talk and so on. Being easily angered or being interested in the dhamma would be other examples. They are called accumulations because, of course, they have been accumulated during the past. The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala inclinations we have accumulated. They come in different strengths, the subtle ones being the latent tendencies referred to in Kom’s post. Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among other ways) by the citta which immediately precedes it, each citta contains the sum of all previous cittas. So in fact there is much more that is accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to. I hope this makes sense. Jonothan 1063 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:52pm Subject: Re: satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear leornardo, > My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. > My understanding is almost all at the theoretical > level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I > paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms > writings and letters - but how well I really > understand them is another matter. > So many levels of understanding even at the > theoretical level. > Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is > dangerous. > Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. > Robert > --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > > > Your writings are so impressive. > > > > Thanks once more, > > Metta, > > Leonardo Dear Robert, I agree with Leonardo that you write very well. It's because you understand the subject well. Otherwise, there's no way that you can express yourself with so much conviction and so well articulation. A trick that someone can talk in the public without shyness is because the speaker understands the subject well, and he feels that he must share it with the audience. Please continue to guide us. This group is interesting and educating thanks to a lot of contributors, and the main one is you. That's how I understood what Leonardo meant, anyway. With appreciation, Alex Tran 1064 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > "Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various > tendencies we all have that make up the distinct > personality and character by which we are > conventionally known. I'm in the habit of thinking of this as the sankhaara aggregate, usually (or sometimes) translated as 'mental formations'. Am I off the beam here? I'm not trying to split hairs--just want to make sure of my nomenclature... > For example, our preferences > for particular tastes or colours, our good and bad > qualities, the way we walk and talk and so on. > Being > easily angered or being interested in the dhamma > would > be other examples. This touches on another habit--I think of the present results of past kamma as 'vipaka'--Robert responded to this question in a previous post, but I'm still not clear on it. Isn't kamma just 'action' (mental, verbal and physical) and vipaka the result of the action? If so, I'm still not clear on the relationship between vipaka and sankhaara. Or am I totally off base on both of these terms? > They are called accumulations > because, of course, they have been accumulated > during > the past. ...understood... > The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala > inclinations we have accumulated. They come in > different strengths, the subtle ones being the > latent > tendencies referred to in Kom’s post. ...also understood... > Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among > other ways) by the citta which immediately precedes > it, each citta contains the sum of all previous > cittas. So in fact there is much more that is > accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to. ...also understood. > I hope this makes sense. It does. If I understand you correctly, pretty much any past conditioning affecting the present falls under the heading 'accumulations'. So it could refer to any of a number of different Pali terms...? Thank you for the help with this. I'd also like to express my gratitude to everyone in this group. I feel like I've been wandering in the wilderness for about thirty years, sometimes in the right direction, sometimes (more often!) not, and have suddenly stumbled upon a group of intrepid scouts who not only know exactly where they're going, but have a detailed map! What a relief... mn 1065 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:17pm Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thank you for the help with this. I'd also like to > express my gratitude to everyone in this group. I > feel like I've been wandering in the wilderness for > about thirty years, sometimes in the right direction, > sometimes (more often!) not, and have suddenly > stumbled upon a group of intrepid scouts who not only > know exactly where they're going, but have a detailed > map! What a relief... > > mn Dear Mike and friends, Me, too. I've been wandering around for awhile. Last year, finally, a visiting monk came to teach us Abhidhamma for a month and a half due to his compassion to help us understand Buddhism more. This year, we just have a new resident monk from Thailand teaching us Abhidhamma again. This new monk knew Khun Sujin and admired her very much. I feel that my accumulations must be good! With Metta, AT 1066 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Somanassa vedana Dear Sarah, Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this topic again. I am wondering how to rationalize/understand why the element such as Vedana has different chracteristics one moment to antother. Could it be: 1) As they arise and fall in different moments: by being not the same, they are different. 2) They are conditioned by the other paramatha dhammas arising and falling at the same time. Kusala somanassa vedana is more calm than akusala somanassa vedana because kusala somassa is conditioned by Cittapassati and Kayapassati, whereas akuasla somassa is conditioned by Uddhaca. Kusala somanassa is more similar to other kusala somanassa because of the different sadharrana cetasikas: one kusala, and the other akusala. 3) They have differences based on the sense doors (eye, ear, nose, tounge, body, and mind), time (past, present, future). How is Vedana 108 classified? (based on 3 vedana x 6 sense door x 3 time x 2 something ???) 4) They have differences because they expierence differnt aramanas 5) In short (consolidating some of the above), they are conditioned by the different pacaya. This where the appreciation of Buddha's panna comes in: being able to explain such refined realities. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Just as all visible objects are different from each other, appear > differently but share certain characteristics, so it is with > somanassa > vedana (pleasant feeling) or and other realities. All kusala > somanassa > vedanas are different from each other but share certain > characteristics > which differentiate them from akusala somanassa vedanas. > 1067 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:30pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation Dear Sarah, Thank you for the wonderful answer. It explains very well. With Metta, AT -- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > With small children, I find, often you have to just give strict rules, > 'don't touch the heater, do this, do that, share the sweets etc'. As they > get older, they tend to question the rules if they don't make sense and one > can begin to include more explanation. Some children readily appreciate that > it's good to give and share, others resent it and don't agree. Sometimes > it's still appropriate to 'force' them. I have a rule in my classrom that > anything edible has to be shared around. Some children just don't like it, > but they all understand the rules. > > Each child is different, some will respond well to being 'forced' to give > when they are young and establish good habits. Some will truly resent it and > make it an excuse not to give in adult life. I have twins in one class and > no one here will be surprised to read they are opposites in this regard. Ken > just gives without being asked and looks for opportunities to help others. > Villy, the twin brother pulls a face no matter what explanation I give. > > I believe kids need, respect and like rules, but as they get older it's good > to give whatever dhamma explanation at whatever level they can appreciate. > They can learn to be considerate, polite and treat others as they would > like. They can be nurtured in an environment where dhamma books and talks > are the norm and slowly (like us) may begin to understand a little more > about realities and the value of developing all kinds of kusala. Sometimes > they need to hear it from someone other than the parent too! > > Some kids have the opposite problem: they are inclined to share but are > discouraged by their parents! > > I don't know if this helps at all... > > Sarah > > p.s I teach children from 6 yrs - 19 yrs old, 6 days a week, 11 months a > year and have done so for decades! (I'm an English teacher and > psychologist)....fitting in this list is my challenge right now! > > > >Dear friends, > > > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. > > > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her > >siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of > >giving. > > > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good > >deeds > >with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children > >may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, > >etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > > > What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha > >dhammas? > > > >With Metta, > >Alex 1068 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 0:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear group, More on sila. Most of us think that we are keeping sila whenever we are not breaking the precepts. However, sila ( a type of cetasika ) - arises only for an extremely short moment and then falls away. When we are not doing anything bad , for example sitting cross-legged watching the breath is there sila? It depends. Moha is not sila, nor is lobha. If we are concentrated on the breath with subtle attachment then there is no sila. When a mosquito comes and we deliberately don’t kill it then those moments of abstaining from killing are sila. But are they kusala with panna or kusala without panna?. If we heard from our teacher that we shouldn’t kill them (and follow simply because we think that the practice depends on it we are doing it without wisdom). If we abstain because we have heard about the teachings of kamma (for example) then there is a level of wisdom that is higher. There are higher levels again if there has been penetration at the level of satipatthana. Or if there is understanding at the level of sammattha one will see that killing is rooted in dosa, or that it is conditioned by attachment to self. There are so many ways that sila can be kept. Someone might not kill because they think god will punish them. Or someone might not kill because it is a bad omen. In these examples the condition for abstaining from killing was miccha-ditthi, wrong view. Does it surprise us that miccha-ditthi can condition kusala? This has all been explained in intricate detail in the Patthana - and we can see that it is just like this in daily life. For what reasons do we keep the precepts? We should examine carefully and learn about our motivations - who knows what reasons we will find. In the visudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as restraint and one of the ways is restraint by mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says "he guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. And later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on and then repeats for the other doorways. This is sila at the level of satipatthana. When we are lost in the world of concept then the "eyefaculty is unguarded" Note that these quotes all come from the beginning of the section about sila in the visuddhimagga (the Visuddhimagga is divided into three sections -sila, samadhi and panna). It might seem when we see this division and hear that sila is the foundation that first we perfect sila, then samattha and later panna. However, as we see, right at the beginning of sila we have satipatthana explained. What does it mean "On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade ". This is our normal life - after seeing immediately concepts are formed up of people and things. It is avijja - no sila. But when there is the satipatthana, even at the very beginning level, there is some understanding of the visible object as merely visible object, colours (no being, no object). And that is sila of a high degree. When can we have this type of sila? Whenever there is this level of understanding. Once I was speaking to some friends in thailand about aspects of the Dhamma. When it was time to leave one of them asked me what I was doing that evening. I knew she had a certain conception of how a "Dhamma" person should act so I said "I might go to a karaoke". She thought I was joking but I said I was certainly serious. She said she was very disapointed.(I should add that karaoke in thailand tend to be rather salacious -with most of the videos having bikini clad woman) I said nothing then but the next time we met I talked a little more about the nature of satipatthana. That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) and that is more valuable than any outward appearance of sila. Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana arise in a karaoke? It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? see you tommorow Robert 1069 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Now, to conclude this long story, how can > satipatthana > arise in a karaoke? In the same way that it can arise in a sala: By way of appamada and sampajanna. In my case, under those circumstances, via dhammanupassana, specifically of the nivaranas! 1070 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Suppose someone thought that if they went down to > the river and put their head under the water ten > times a day that this would lead to nibbana. They do > this for many years until they hear that this is > wrong practice. They understand and stop doing it. > No conditions any more for the type of akusala > cetana that conditions such behaviour. Ha! Not so far-fetched...I've come close myself... Thanks again... mn 1071 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:55am Subject: Re: sila as foundation Dear Robert, Thanks for posting this message. You don't know how much I appreciate (this is lobha, mind you...) the detailed and precise discussion about the poramatha dhamma in this group. And here is something to remind myself. Satipatthana can arise anywhere when there are conditions for it to arise. This can be during speaking, talking, eating, walking, sitting, lying down, sitting cross-legged or not, being angry, being sad, being eaten (there is a suttra about a Bikkhu being enlightened as being eaten by a tiger), being hurt (there is more than one sutra about Bikkhus being englightened as being killed by pregnant? cows), sleeping, and even in a "Vipassana" sala. In a karaoke, there are plenty of poramatha dhammas arising and falling: sound, sight, hotness, coldness, hardness, softness, lobha, mana, etc. Scantily-cladded women (also a story about Bikkhu being enlightened while being apporached by a seducer) and even hearing akusala-vipaka (come to the bay area study group's Karaoke session sometimes!!!) is not enough to prevent Satipathana from arising. I believe (what I believe is often wrong) it is possible for Satipathana citta to occasionally arise in a "Vipassana" sala. However, because of the refined kilesa, as Robert kept reminding us, and not so refined kilesa, there may not be panna arising knowing what the true characteristic of Sati is and knowing that the self is accumulating lobha of wanting to know, and possibly accumulating wrong-practice, ultimately preventing nibbhana. If that is the case, then further development of Sati in such a state is close to impossible. I am sorry I have not been able to quote so precisely from the sources, as I am quite lacking in English materials. Is there a web site publishing the English version of the tipitikas? There is one in Thai... kom --- Robert Kirkpatrick > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana > arise in a karaoke? > 1072 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance >of sila. >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana >arise in a karaoke? > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? >see you tommorow >Robert > With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is very strong at that moment. Now, I have a question. I know a cult whose leader teaches to a large crowd of believers. He often goes to Las Vegas to "save lost souls" there. Those "souls" are the ones who killed themselves after a big loss, or the "evil" spririts hanging around those casinos. His believers say that their teacher is working very hard while losing/gaining money at the roulette table, for example. I believe that somehow, we have to set limit to ourselves so that those cultists can see the differences between Buddhists and those cult leaders. After all, it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to separate the true ones from the cons. With Metta, AT 1073 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation --- protectID wrote: > I believe (what I believe is often wrong) ...ditto... > it is > possible for > Satipathana > citta to occasionally arise in a "Vipassana" sala. ...sure... > However, because > of > the refined kilesa, as Robert kept reminding us, and > not so refined > kilesa, there may not be panna arising knowing what > the true > characteristic of Sati is and knowing that the self > is accumulating > lobha > of wanting to know, and possibly accumulating > wrong-practice, > ultimately preventing nibbhana. If that is the > case, then further > development of Sati in such a state is close to > impossible. ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer. Because in the sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe... How interesting. 1074 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation That is IT. These are not easy points to see.I think I see early retirement coming on. Keep it up. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- protectID wrote: > > > I believe (what I believe is often wrong) > > ...ditto... > > > it is > > possible for > > Satipathana > > citta to occasionally arise in a "Vipassana" sala. > > > ...sure... > > > However, because > > of > > the refined kilesa, as Robert kept reminding us, > and > > not so refined > > kilesa, there may not be panna arising knowing > what > > the true > > characteristic of Sati is and knowing that the > self > > is accumulating > > lobha > > of wanting to know, and possibly accumulating > > wrong-practice, > > ultimately preventing nibbhana. If that is the > > case, then further > > development of Sati in such a state is close to > > impossible. > > ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer. Because in the > sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe... > > How interesting. > 1075 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear group, Thank you for the fine answers to my question (about how satipatthana can occur at a karoke)from Alex, mn, and Kom. Kom you explain things very, very well. I was interested in this from Alex: "we should not be fooled by the look of a karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is very strong at that moment." This is indeed possible. The fact that you understand this Alex is rather wonderful. As we have mentioned a few times (repeatedly?) on this list, cittas are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality. And we cannot tell by looking at someone whether this is occuring. In the visuddhimagga they give an example of the type of monk who has very strong tendencies towords lobha (desire, attachment). This type of monk walks very carefully and studiously. He moves beautifully and his robe is always kept properly and so on. As I read it this monk has all the outer appearance that we might expect of an arahant. We can see that we can't know about people by outer behaviour. We can only know ourselves- and in the begginning the moments of sati may be so few and so weak that it is not clear even to ourselves. Which is better: 1. a few moments of true sati and sampajanna (even if only very weak) coming in at a time when we are highly agitated and seemingly distracted, or 2.a whole year of calm and serenity but with no real sati and panna? Robert (If you went for the serenity take off three marks.) --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > > More on sila. Most of us think that we are keeping > sila whenever we are not breaking the precepts. > However, sila ( a type of cetasika ) - arises only > for > an extremely short moment and then falls away. When > we > are not doing anything bad , for example sitting > cross-legged watching the breath is there sila? It > depends. Moha is not sila, nor is lobha. If we are > concentrated on the breath with subtle attachment > then > there is no sila. > When a mosquito comes and we deliberately don’t kill > it then those moments of abstaining from killing are > sila. But are they kusala with panna or kusala > without > panna?. If we heard from our teacher that we > shouldn’t > kill them (and follow simply because we think that > the > practice depends on it we are doing it without > wisdom). > > If we abstain because we have heard about the > teachings of kamma (for example) then there is a > level > of wisdom that is higher. There are higher levels > again if there has been penetration at the level of > satipatthana. Or if there is understanding at the > level of sammattha one will see that killing is > rooted > in dosa, or that it is conditioned by attachment to > self. > > There are so many ways that sila can be kept. > Someone might not kill because they think god will > punish them. Or someone might not kill because it is > a > bad omen. In these examples the condition for > abstaining from killing was miccha-ditthi, wrong > view. > Does it surprise us that miccha-ditthi can condition > kusala? This has all been explained in intricate > detail in the Patthana - and we can see that it is > just like this in daily life. For what reasons do we > keep the precepts? We should examine carefully and > learn about our motivations - who knows what reasons > we will find. > > In the visudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as > restraint and one of the ways is restraint by > mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says "he > guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the > eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. > And > later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with > the > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > particulars through which , if he left the eye > faculty > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters > upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on and > then repeats for the other doorways. > This is sila at the level of satipatthana. When we > are > lost in the world of concept then the "eyefaculty is > unguarded" Note that these quotes all come from the > beginning of the section about sila in the > visuddhimagga (the Visuddhimagga is divided into > three > sections -sila, samadhi and panna). It might seem > when > we see this division and hear that sila is the > foundation that first we perfect sila, then samattha > and later panna. However, as we see, right at the > beginning of sila we have satipatthana explained. > > What does it mean "On seeing a visible object with > the > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > particulars through which , if he left the eye > faculty > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > covetnousness and grief might invade ". This is our > normal life - after seeing immediately concepts are > formed up of people and things. It is avijja - no > sila. But when there is the satipatthana, even at > the > very beginning level, there is some understanding of > the visible object as merely visible object, colours > (no being, no object). And that is sila of a high > degree. > > When can we have this type of sila? Whenever there > is > this level of understanding. > Once I was speaking to some friends in thailand > about > aspects of the Dhamma. When it was time to leave one > of them asked me what I was doing that evening. I > knew > she had a certain conception of how a "Dhamma" > person > should act so I said "I might go to a karaoke". She > thought I was joking but I said I was certainly > serious. She said she was very disapointed.(I > should > add that karaoke in thailand tend to be rather > salacious -with most of the videos having bikini > clad > woman) I said nothing then but the next time we met > I > talked a little more about the nature of > satipatthana. > That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a > karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher > sila) > and that is more valuable than any outward > appearance > of sila. > Now, to conclude this long story, how can > satipatthana > arise in a karaoke? > > It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to > give > an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? > see you tommorow > Robert 1076 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear AT, Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak the truth and lies: Don't be "attached" to: 1) what you have heard 2) the saying being passed down 3) the news 4) what is in the book 5) your own guessing 6) your own thinking 7) your logics 8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own thinking/liking?) 9) what the "believeable" source is saying 10) what your teacher is saying The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala Dhamma which has no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and knowing Kusla dhamma which has benefits and "developing" it. A. Sujin: 1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam buddha, etc.) 2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of venaya sattre, etc.) 3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is true. (poramattha dhamma, etc.) --- A T wrote: > I believe that somehow, we have to set limit to ourselves so that > those > cultists can see the differences between Buddhists and those cult > leaders. > After all, it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to separate the true > ones > from the cons. 1077 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 6:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Thanks, Alex, Kom, Here's anothr tool: The Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Maha-Parinibbana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear AT, > > Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak > the truth and lies: > Don't be "attached" to: > 1) what you have heard > 2) the saying being passed down > 3) the news > 4) what is in the book > 5) your own guessing > 6) your own thinking > 7) your logics > 8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own > thinking/liking?) > 9) what the "believeable" source is saying > 10) what your teacher is saying > > The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala > Dhamma which has > no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and > knowing Kusla dhamma > which has benefits and "developing" it. > > A. Sujin: > 1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam > buddha, etc.) > 2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of > venaya sattre, etc.) > 3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is > true. (poramattha > dhamma, etc.) > > --- A T wrote: > > I believe that somehow, we have to set limit to > ourselves so that > > those > > cultists can see the differences between Buddhists > and those cult > > leaders. > > After all, it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to > separate the true > > ones > > from the cons. > 1078 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 4:12am Subject: The veggie issue Der Mike, You're most welcome to stir up anything you like! you'll notice we like 'stirrers' on the list and vegetarian ones are fine too! I really appreciate it when you and Leonardo and anyone else sends us off to relevant articles or suttas or posts them here...it's a condition for me to read more. There's plenty of 'meat' in the article in more ways than one and I found plenty of interesting points. As we know when we study more about realities, it's the citta at this moment, the cetana now, that is important. Many may think we are splitting hairs when we follow the 'Three fold rule' (unseen, unheard and unsuspected to have been killed specially for oneself), but these are like reminders to avoid any intention to harm. Thanks, Mike.....keep stirring! Sarah> >Dear Sarah, Sukinder, et al., > >I don't want to stir up a vegetarianism controversey (they can be >extraordinarily passionate and long-lived!), but I'd like to >recommend Dr. Viktor Gunasekara's superb article @ > >http://members.nbci.com/budtoday/english/veg/009-budveg.htm > > 1079 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 4:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear Amara, Well, personally, when I came across Buddhism and especially the abhidhamma, straight away it gave me all the answers I had hoped but failed to find in my psychology studies. Psychology follows scientific empirical principles and carries all the same limitations....starting with the assumption that it's all nature or nurture, nurture starting from when the baby is born and nature following the parents' genes. We know how very limited this view is and how little is understood by western science and psychology about conditions. Enough! On a more practical level, the main difference is in the encouragement of kusala....we have confidence (in your example below or the one recently quoted about the different dwellings for different kinds of monks) that these are introduced for harmony and the development of kusala. In other psychological, Life Dynamics, or Cultural revolution confession type settings, it may sound similar, but the motivation is different and the results are very different. I work in areas of language related problems and don't have any conflicts.... Thanks for the interest...I don't know that I've really answered you! Sarah > > >Dear Sarah, > >I have often wondered how a psychologist would view Buddhism, in >fact I think within the Sankha there is the rule that any bhikkhu >who has transgressed the vinaya has to proclaim it to his group or >something like that which sounded to me much like modern group >therapy or whatever. What are your views on this? > >Thanks in advance, > >Amara > 1080 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 4:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Somanassa vedana Dear Kom, Your comments sound spot on! The complete answer of course lies in the complexity of the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. Only the Buddha could know exactly all the different conditons working together to form up somanassa vedana or any other reality at this moment. Khun Sujin likes to give the example of all the ingredients in the cooking pot. Given these particular ingredients in these particular quantities at any given time, how could the broth or dish be any other? Even the order we put the ingredients in, what has just preceded the one we put in now, what will follow, what accompanies it at the same time....so many variables affecting the final taste! Keep up your good insights! Sarah >Dear Sarah, > >Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this topic again. > > >I am wondering how to rationalize/understand why the element such as >Vedana has different chracteristics one moment to antother. Could it >be: >1) As they arise and fall in different moments: by being not the same, >they are different. >2) They are conditioned by the other paramatha dhammas arising and >falling at the same time. Kusala somanassa vedana is more calm than >akusala somanassa vedana because kusala somassa is conditioned by >Cittapassati and Kayapassati, whereas akuasla somassa is conditioned by >Uddhaca. Kusala somanassa is more similar to other kusala somanassa >because of the different sadharrana cetasikas: one kusala, and the >other akusala. >3) They have differences based on the sense doors (eye, ear, nose, >tounge, body, and mind), time (past, present, future). How is Vedana >108 classified? (based on 3 vedana x 6 sense door x 3 time x 2 >something ???) >4) They have differences because they expierence differnt aramanas >5) In short (consolidating some of the above), they are conditioned by >the different pacaya. > >This where the appreciation of Buddha's panna comes in: being able to >explain such refined realities. > >kom 1081 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:00pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation > Psychology follows scientific empirical principles and carries all the same > limitations....starting with the assumption that it's all nature or nurture, > nurture starting from when the baby is born and nature following the > parents' genes. We know how very limited this view is and how little is > understood by western science and psychology about conditions. Enough! Dear Sarah, Thanks, it just reconfirms how little men can comprehend compared to the Buddha's enlightenment of all things, we could never really know the realities of nama and rupa without the Buddha's teachings. Even though we think we have come a long way with the rupa part, we depend on tools and machinery built by men whereas in those days they transcended all that. I keep marveling that the Buddha talked about other worlds and planets over 2,500 yrs before Hubble and other telescopes were able to 'discover' them, only a few years ago! And since tools are not applicable, men do not know how to deal with the citta, which can not be measured by any machinery since it has no form or physical existence whatever, not even as empty space! It is really unbelieveable that he has taught the way for each to prove for themselves how life comes about and even more amazing that he taught the way to end it all, despite all the accumulations of an eternity. We're really lucky to have his teachings available, Amara 1082 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear group What a wonderful topic "karaoke" we used to do a lot of that (kom, I, Jack and Oii) now that we're studying dhamma, often we discuss dhamma and identify what's going on while we are singing (what a wonderful way of learning dhamma) agree? Kom. at least I myself, can reinforce what Robert said satti can arise anywhere, even in the karaoke bar. Of course satti may arise momentary along with loppa. It's only natural that we live the normal life, and be aware of what's going on in our normal daily life. as supposed to try to avoid normal routine by going to quieted place, cross the leg, and concentrate on the breathing, etc.what do we gain from doing that? how can sila be recognize if there is no satti at that moment? not only that, sila is the last 3 of the 8 folds path that take place when the highest panna arises. any feed back? group. with metta, O 1083 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 10:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Mike > I'm in the habit of thinking of this as the > sankhaara > aggregate, usually (or sometimes) translated as > 'mental formations'. Am I off the beam here? I'm > not > trying to split hairs--just want to make sure of my > nomenclature... There is no need to worry about splitting hairs. When we get down to abhidhamma terms, precision is essential! The subject of accumulations can be a difficult one to come to grips with. Accumulations are not absolute realities (paramattha dhammas), but they pertain to realities. For example, at every moment of citta with lobha, lobha is accumulated, and so our accumulations for lobha change. Put simply, it means that the tendency for lobha to arise again increases. This tendency is not itself a reality to be known by direct experience. But when strong lobha arises, it is because just such a tendency has been accumulated, so to that extent it can be experienced. When we talk about accumulations we are usually referring to accumulations in relation to cetasikas that fall within sankhara kkhanda (ie all cetasikas except vedana and sanna). So this is perhaps the connection you had in mind. > This touches on another habit--I think of the > present > results of past kamma as 'vipaka'--Robert responded > to > this question in a previous post, but I'm still not > clear on it. Isn't kamma just 'action' (mental, > verbal and physical) and vipaka the result of the > action? If so, I'm still not clear on the > relationship between vipaka and sankhaara. Or am I > totally off base on both of these terms? Kamma is even more difficult to come to terms with. I can remember that it took me some time to realise that kamma is used in different senses. Kamma can refer, for example, to: - in a general sense, an action/cause that produces a later experience/result - even more generally, the store of such actions that we have accumulated (!) in the past - in terms of absolute realities, the cetana cetasika (mental factor of volition) accompanying such action - one of the 24 conditions (paccaya), ie describing the relationship between 2 realities (kamma paccaya) (There may be other meanings too). Correspondingly, vipaka can mean: - the objects, pleasant or unpleasant, that we experience through our sense-doors - our general lot in life - the citta that experiences an object through one of the sense doors (vipaka citta) - vipaka paccaya Of these various references, only cetana cetasika (sankhara kkhanda) and vipaka citta (vinnana kkhanda) are stated in terms of paramattha dhammas. Confused? It goes with the job! > Thank you for the help with this. I'd also like to > express my gratitude to everyone in this group. I > feel like I've been wandering in the wilderness for > about thirty years, sometimes in the right > direction, > sometimes (more often!) not, and have suddenly > stumbled upon a group of intrepid scouts who not > only > know exactly where they're going, but have a > detailed > map! What a relief... We are all learning from and benefiting from the discussions that are taking place. In my own case, having lived in the virtual Dhamma desert of Hong Kong for many years, this list comes as a great blessing. Thanks for your part in making it what it is. Jonothan 1084 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule > here but I would like to post a > Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle. He has > translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta > (AN VI.46) about > the dhamma-practitioners and > meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is > really > an old one :-) Leonardo This is an interesting sutta. 2 sets of monks, both having attained levels of enlightenment (and in one case having also developed samatha to a high degree) disparaging each other. What I am not clear about is whether that they are disparaging each other’s behaviour/lifestyle or each other’s presumed wrong practice (I think the former). I suppose the commentary would shed some light on this. Of course, no kusala or practice of the dhamma should be disparaged. All forms of kusala are worthy of our study. At the same time, lack of developed sila or samatha should not deter us from making a start with satipatthana. Thanks for posting the translation and useful commentarial notes. Jonothan > Mahacunda Sutta > Mahacunda > AN 6.46 > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > Mahacunda was living in > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > Mahacunda addressed the > monks: "Monks!" > > "Yes, friend." > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > the Dhamma that harass > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > 'Those meditators, they > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice for > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > the welfare, the good, and > the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > harass and disparage the > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > 'Those monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > unsteady, talkative and > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > with minds wandering and > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > to the Dhamma for? On > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > nor the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > for the welfare, the good, > and the well-being of gods and men. > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma speak delightful > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > not speak delightful to > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > monks, nor the monks who > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > Moreover, they do not > practice for the good and well-being of the > multitude, nor for the welfare, > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > delightful only to other > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > monks dedicated to the > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > to the Dhamma, nor the > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > do not practice for the > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > welfare, the good, and the > well-being of gods and men. > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma should train > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > manner to the meditation > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > dwells having personally > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > friends, the meditation monks > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > delightful manner to the > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees." > > Notes: > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > the Dhamma are called > this because they expound the teachings, and the > monks who are meditators > are called this simply because they meditate(or > dwell in mental absorption). > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > This is a passage which is > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > meditation practice. It > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > remark to cause virtuous > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > opportunity, and in sutta > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > while being obsessed by the > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > unknown to me, I have > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > rendering these with > their literal meanings. > > 3. nibbana > Sean 1085 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Kom, Wonderful answer with details, and very logical. Thank you, Kom. You're very wise. Metta, Alex Tran =========== >From: Kom Tukovinit >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:40:52 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear AT, > >Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak the truth and lies: >Don't be "attached" to: >1) what you have heard >2) the saying being passed down >3) the news >4) what is in the book >5) your own guessing >6) your own thinking >7) your logics >8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own thinking/liking?) >9) what the "believeable" source is saying >10) what your teacher is saying > >The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala Dhamma which has >no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and knowing Kusla dhamma >which has benefits and "developing" it. > >A. Sujin: >1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam buddha, etc.) >2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of venaya sattre, etc.) >3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is true. (poramattha >dhamma, etc.) 1086 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Mike, "But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Thank you for reminding me of this Discourse. Yes, we must use the Teachings of the Buddha as the measure to see if anyone's claims are trustworthy. Metta, Alex Tran ======= >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:47:30 -0700 (PDT) > >Thanks, Alex, Kom, > >Here's anothr tool: > >The Four Great References >>Maha-Parinibbana Sutta >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > >--- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > Dear AT, > > > > Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak > > the truth and lies: > > Don't be "attached" to: > > 1) what you have heard > > 2) the saying being passed down > > 3) the news > > 4) what is in the book > > 5) your own guessing > > 6) your own thinking > > 7) your logics > > 8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own > > thinking/liking?) > > 9) what the "believeable" source is saying > > 10) what your teacher is saying > > > > The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala > > Dhamma which has > > no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and > > knowing Kusla dhamma > > which has benefits and "developing" it. > > > > A. Sujin: > > 1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam > > buddha, etc.) > > 2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of > > venaya sattre, etc.) > > 3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is > > true. (poramattha > > dhamma, etc.) > > 1087 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear group, Some more details about sila and satipatthana. We all see that satipatthana can even arise in such licentious locations as karaoke parlors. Mike gave an example of the nivaranas (the hindrances ,), and as he noted these are paramattha dhammas (realities). They are classified under mental objects in the satipatthana sutta and are a fine object to understand as anatta, not-self. What are some of the conditions for the hindrances. One of the most important is accumulations from the past. However, these are hard to see . What are the conditions at the present? Well one of them is object condition (arammana paccaya). Let us investigate this paccaya (condition) a little. In the karaoke place what objects are present? These include any object that arises at any of the six doors. Taking the eye-door as an example the visible object might be one of kusala vipaka (pleasant result) if the video happened to include a highly beautiful woman. Now if there no "guarding of the sense doors" what process will happen? Just to refresh on what the scriptures say: > > In the visudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as > > restraint and one of the ways is restraint by > > mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says > "he > > guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of > the > > eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. > > And > > later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with > > the > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > particulars through which , if he left the eye > > faculty > > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > enters > > upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on > and > > then repeats for the other doorways. > > This is sila at the level of satipatthana. When we > > are > > lost in the world of concept then the "eyefaculty > is > > unguarded" Thus the process that occurs is that seeing experiences visible object and if there is no comprehension of reality as reality then avijja "darts among what is non-existent" (remember the quote from the udana commenatary). It takes what is only concept(beautiful woman)- for something that exists and co-arising with this is lobha (lust) a nivarana. This is paticusamupada - the wheel is spinning. It can be cut(that might be poor terminolgy) at this time (as Mike said) , momentarily if sati and sampajanna arise to understand a moment of lust as simply paramattha dhamma, not "us". Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise before the nivarana of sense desire arises. Panna can understand visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : "On seeing a visible object with > > the > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > faculty > > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > enters > > upon the way of its restraint..".. This is sila at the level of satipatthana. Can it be done? We have to find that out for ourself. If we can see this directly much doubt will be erased. If sati and panna arise at this level then there is direct understanding of color as color - the javanna cittas are mahakusala associated with panna. Then "he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states..." However, impossible to hold on to such moments,. If we try to make them stay we are going against their nature. They arise according to complex conditions. This type of trying is actually upadana (grasping) of the type that clings to wrong practice. It is a subtle point: don't misunderstand. It is not that we just do nothing and somehow everything works out - that is one extreme. But so, so easy to do "something" with attachment. Only we ourselves can learn what the middle way is. So much to say about this, so much more to do. Robert 1088 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 0:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke --- protectID wrote: > Dear group > > What a wonderful topic "karaoke" > we used to do a lot of that (kom, I, Jack and Oii) > now that we're studying dhamma, > often we discuss dhamma and identify > what's going on while we are singing > (what a wonderful way of learning dhamma) > agree? Kom. > at least I myself, can reinforce what Robert said > satti can arise anywhere, even in the karaoke bar. > Dear o and others, And I see Kom mentioned it too! Wow, I thought I was avant-garde. A short story: Khun sujin listened while I was telling someone about going to karaoke and how understanding could arise in such places. She nodded (possibly) but when I asked her later what she thought she said that she gave up music and singing (at a young age) when she read the text where the Buddha says, talking to the Bhikkhus, that "singing and dancing are considered as madness in this Dhammavinaya". This made me wonder a little. A few weeks later I went with khun sujin and her sisters to a memorial service for her grendmother (I think) upcountry (I forget where- someplace with ricefields and many wats). We had a great day of discussions, going to temples, talking with monks, dana, and ceremonies. That evening we met with about 15 members of the extended family for dinner at a restaurant. I was sitting by Khun Sujin when two young relatives (around 20 years old) approached her and paid respects. After polite conversation the topic of Dhamma study came up and the boys admitted that they had little interest in it. They frankly said that they were worried that if they got involved in Dhamma that that would mean the end of all fun and frolics of the type that young men enjoy. Khun Sujin said that they misunderstood Buddhism; she said that "Robert studies and understands Dhamma but he still goes to karaoke" (I nodded sagely)....End of story. A final point: none of what we have been saying about this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke (or worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or someone who lives life fully endowed with the five strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can develop in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find that karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest after sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I mean, not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a rather simple life (no details).But the only reply she gives, if I ask why abstains from this or that is "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can tell us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but by developing understanding our own unique accumulations are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself what is suitable (for us) and what is not. Robert 1089 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 7:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke wrote: > Thus the process that occurs is that seeing > experiences visible object and if there is no > comprehension of reality as reality then avijja > "darts > among what is non-existent" (remember the quote from > the udana commenatary). It takes what is only > concept(beautiful woman)- for something that exists > and co-arising with this is lobha (lust) a nivarana. > This is paticusamupada - the wheel is spinning. ...as I understand it, this could be paraphrased, 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa), pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact, desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling, clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right? > It > can > be cut(that might be poor terminolgy) at this time > (as > Mike said) , momentarily if sati and sampajanna > arise > to understand a moment of lust as simply paramattha > dhamma, not "us". ...or, again in other words, 'if vipassanaa (conditioned by sati--or appamatta) arises instead of 'clinging', then becoming can't arise depending on (nonarisen) clinging.'--does this sound about right? > Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise before the > nivarana of sense desire arises. > Panna can > understand > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : > "On > seeing a visible object with > > > the > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > > faculty > > > unguarded, [...by appamatta, I think...] > > > evil an unprofitable states of > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > > > enters > > > upon the way of its restraint..." Yes. If sampajanna arises after 'feeling' before 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no becoming.'--? > This is sila at the level of satipatthana. Can it be > done? 'Done', yes, in the sense that the conditions can be cultivated for the arising of sampajanna, (appamatta) sati and vipassanaa. Everyone, please correct me if I bungled this piece of paticcasamuppada. Robert, thanks as always...mn 1090 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Robert wrote "Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise before the > > nivarana of sense desire arises. > > Panna can > > understand > > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : > > "On > > seeing a visible object with > > > > the > > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > > > faculty > > > > unguarded, > > [...by appamatta, I think...] > > > > > evil an unprofitable states of > > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > > > > enters > > > > upon the way of its restraint..." > > Mike wrote "Yes. If sampajanna arises after 'feeling' before > 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no > becoming.'--?" Dear Mike, You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding of paticusamupada into the actual experience. Nothing wrong with that - we can see this to some extent. However, remember that sati does not have to take feeling as an object. It could have taken rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment. At the moment of seeing there always only neutral feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises later. You said "arises after feeling before desire" (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise before the > > nivarana of sense desire arises ")but in reality it is happening so fast that any idea of time sequence is just an idea, a concept based on what we have heard. We can understand someting of this process but it may be counterproductive if we try to force the the theory into the actual moments. Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be paraphrased, 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa), pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact, desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling, clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right?" It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty woman- only colors ).Just for those who might think this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't think this mm!) we should understand that these processes are being repeated billions of times a second. How much we really see of it all (directly) depends on the level of panna that has acumulated. Still the more we learn about the theory of paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation into it in daily life- and that can't be bad. Robert (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha) 1091 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Dear Shin, Am just trying to get through all the e-mails and finally came across this plea for help. Unfortunately, despite the terrible emotional situation it describes, the person/persons who start these things are really sick. They play on the sympathy of others to fill up web space and the actions they perform are really evil. It is, unfortunately, a chain letter HOAX. Think about it: why should a company only finance this anguished father based on how many people send e-mails? Why don't they just finance the kid's operation if there really is such a case? They cannot put a link on how many e-mails are sent because there is no address to which all of them can be returned! Furthermore, the e-mails sent give absolutely no benefit to the company, either. If there really is such a father out there, and the daughter is indeed in serious condition in a hospital, think of the cruelty of the perpetrators of these hoaxes by putting false hopes in the mind of a frightened, vulnerable parent who cannot afford medical care! How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by such people. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:02 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA > I believe we can help this dad just by emailing. 1092 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Mike Some further thoughts on this (Twofold Thought) sutta. Although the panna being described in the sutta is of the kind that accompanies samatha, it is nonetheless of an extremely high level, being the culmination of all the Buddha’s lives as a Bodhisattva. At this level it is indeed appropriate to describe it as a tool. But until our panna is well developed, any attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable to our own situation will surely result in the kind of wrong practice that you so well describe here and in your comments on Kom’s posting. If and when panna is well developed, it arises and performs its function (in this case, seeing the danger in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course, without having to be called upon to do so. So that brings us back to developing understanding of the reality of the present moment, regardless of the uwholesome (and unpleasant) states we may be experiencing. On the other point you mentioned, the citta arising with panna is of course a kusala citta and so there can be no akusala whatsoever at that particular moment. Jonothan > > At the moment that panna arises (‘while > > reflecting’), > > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > > ‘subsides’). > > None at all? This is such a pleasant state that I'd > begun (thanks to Robert's lucid comments on the > subject) to think that I'm really only driving out a > coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala > dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is > clearly > to be preferred over the former, I think this could > be > quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) > conjecture > is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I > fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it > could > become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, > micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have > been > happening for a long time... > 1093 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hoaxes, etc [Was:Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA] Dear Betty, Shin, and friends, I agree with you entirely, Betty. Whenever in doubt, we can check from the internet by searching "urban legends" in any searching engines. One of the sources I usually refer to is the following webpage: http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm With Metta, Alex Tran ================================ >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:33:46 +0700 > >Dear Shin, >Am just trying to get through all the e-mails and finally came across this >plea for help. Unfortunately, despite the terrible emotional situation it >describes, the person/persons who start these things are really sick. They >play on the sympathy of others to fill up web space and the actions they >perform are really evil. It is, unfortunately, a chain letter HOAX. Think >about it: why should a company only finance this anguished father based on >how many people send e-mails? Why don't they just finance the kid's >operation if there really is such a case? They cannot put a link on how >many >e-mails are sent because there is no address to which all of them can be >returned! Furthermore, the e-mails sent give absolutely no benefit to the >company, either. If there really is such a father out there, and the >daughter is indeed in serious condition in a hospital, think of the cruelty >of the perpetrators of these hoaxes by putting false hopes in the mind of a >frightened, vulnerable parent who cannot afford medical care! > >How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, >to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the >opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger >cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by >such >people. > > >With metta, >Betty > > >__________________________ >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road >Bangkok 10900, Thailand >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 >protectID 1094 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Shin, > How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these > phony messages perform, > to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be > interested in hearing the > opinions of group members. For me, it served as a > condition for anger > cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the > akusala kamma created by such > people. Betty, There is not much we can do about the akusala cetana (deceit, greed, etc, the usual cacktail) of the senders of such messages, so the best we could hope for on our part is a bit of equanimity. But I suspect we all reacted with dosa of some type or another. Jonothan 1095 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 11:36pm Subject: Re: Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA > How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, > to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the > opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger > cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by such > people. Dear Betty, We cannot really know the state of the citta of the persons who perform such deeds, perhaps they did not realize the harm the letters might be doing, perhaps they realized what they put people through and did it anyway, enjoying others' sufferings. Then again they might know it's wrong but did it to try out something, but in all cases what we can be sure of is that it is 'musa', lying, using words, actions or other means to conveying false messages. The results depend on the strength of the citta that did the deed, more specifically the cetana cetasika the intended the harm, and the viriya that went into it. As always, nothing is lost, everything is accumulated in the citta until the opportunity arises for the corresponding vipaka to bring results. Others could probably help to explain, Amara 1096 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) --- amara chay wrote: > As always, nothing is > lost, everything is > accumulated in the citta until the opportunity > arises for the > corresponding vipaka to bring results. ________________________________________ Thanks, Amara, For some reason, something 'clicked' for me that hadn't before--though I knew (theoretically) that each citta bears all the conditions of all previous cittas (right?), I hadn't put it together that each citta is the bearer of all 'accumulations'. If this is correct: In sankhaarupaadaana, with what does grasping (or identification) identify? Is this just a single citta (or series of cittas) that has the characteristic of identifying with previous cittas? Also: If it is true that only one citta can arise at a time, doesn't each citta, bearing all the conditions of all previous cittas, have both kusala and akusala characteristics? If so, than can kusala and akusala arise simultaneously? Finally: Occuring for such an infinitesimally brief period, does all of this really matter, for practical purposes? Or is this only of theoretical importance? Thank you, ma'am...mn 1097 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Sarah, Sorry for my late comments ... > Dear Leonardo & friends, > I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation of > sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the > articles by B.Bodhi ..... In my mail answering Robert`s remarks, I`ve posted: "I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of what sila means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give us some better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be ever better then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon our strong unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept or practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is panna itself isn`t it ? I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the real sila is conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our big ego - this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing annata". I didn`t understand Bhikkhu Bodhi`s emphasis in first undertaking sila and then go ahead on panna for every people. Otherwise, for a great number of people it would be like this. Only to keep the precepts as external is somehow silly, but this stage should be undertaken because for people without grasping the more profound Dhamma it is a Dhamma 'practice' in itself. There should be a very initial mundane panna to keep the precepts - even for someone who practices them out of fear to rebirth in an unfortunate realm ! We have to bear in mind that perhaps Bodhi`s articles don`t address to Roberts, Sarahs, Jonothans, Amaras, Alexs :-) ... but for a different kind of people. You have to use different approach to comunicate to people with different degree of understanding. You`ve wrote: > He suggests the level of understanding will be limited > by the level of sila established too. For me these two are very much connected. Perhaps here the word 'understand' has different meanings for us - Sila, as I see, is connected with the word 'wise' and not necessarily with the word 'understand'. We can understand theoretically many teachings but what is really a wise person ? - Please, here I'm not trying to say that we should meditate more than study ! Sarah and friends, what is a wise person ? What caracterize the four stages of sainthood ? Bhikkhu Bodhi is stressing the real value of sila in cleansing the 'house'. Why would he did that ? (english is correct ?) I think it fits with a particular kind of people from west, usually with a great amount of aversion on the religious aspects. It seems to someone that Buddhism is best considered a mental science, a philosophy and NOT a religion. Because of our conditional view of religion with dogmas and obligations, we tend "only to meditate, to study and put in the garbage all these silly exterior religious matter - let it for the use of the less inteligent people". Sarah, unfortunately this was the way I' ve begun my 'Dhamma practice' . So, BB's articles are very compassionate in the way they try to shed light in this important matter. > 1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. > first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. Yes and no ! I think there will be some 'choices' - not personal choices, in ultimate sense.There is 'choices' to study the Dhamma, 'choices' to participate in this wonderful list, 'choices' to practice the precepts, etc.. Perhaps the word zeal (chanda) is more technical to express what I want to mean. Chanda is not the same as lobha as we can read in chapter 12 - NVG's - Cetacikas: " ... Whenever we perform kusala, the kusala citta is accompained by chanda wich is zeal for kusala, wich desires to act in the wholesome way..... If there were no wholesome zeal, ' wish to act', we could not perform such acts of mettă and karuna ... But Sarah I also can see what you are trying to teach me - there is dangers also ... So, if we continue, we can read in the same chapter: "...How do we know when chanda is kusala or akusala ? For instance, when we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment ? We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often attchment than kusala chanda. We are attached to a concept of sati [as if these words were Robert`s ! ] and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is different the moment sati arises [ great ! ] ... When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala chanda wich performs its functions .... > 2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are > very generous. What do you mean with 'naturally' ? Every situation is due to conditions. What were the conditions to they can have good accumulations of sila ? > However if there is no understanding and a teacher they > respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change > this good behaviour. This is the case where there are a silly student and a also a deluded teacher ... > 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the > wholesome tendencies to grow. I think we are stressing the same point. There is only a mature sila when understanding is present. But for me, there isn`t a wise man only if there is understanding without sila, both internal and external as Bhikkhu Bodhi stresses. > 4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any > knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments > of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can be > very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely > attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of > what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, > how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa and > moha ? Sometimes, the outer behavior conditions the inner one, particularly in the very start of the path - like as we were as educated children in our first yoars in school. > 5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation or > a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations it > shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't > talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no > situations. Sarah, for me sila is very much concerned with its volitional aspect. In thinking in this direction, I guess I'm focusing on the many moments of sila and non-sila, the former is more frequent than the second, but both of them are anatta and anicca. > 6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. I would say not only to hear but to understand sila as kusala in the way you in this group try to understand ! > We all have different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the > term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember > stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when > they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. Yes, but who knows they didn`t have sila accumulations in the past. I guess if someone is fortunate enough to share an existence with a Buddha, there will be a extremely strong wholesome accumulations on his/her past - both sila and understanding accumulations ! > 7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's > understanding had to develop to this high level. But not because only a sotapanna can keep rightly the precepts, ' we' wouldn't try to make some effort in the right direction. Understanding the necessity of practising sila is also Right View and it drives our usual deluded and poluted mind to a right course of action - both internal (volitional) and external (acting in the world). If we will wait until we become a sotapanna do practice sila, i guess it will never come to life. Sila, as I understand, is a condition for sotapanna attainment. Am I wrong here ? > Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without comprehending > that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. See again Bodhi's differentiation on internal x external behavior and its implicit relation with correct understanding. Thank you very much Sarah, Ps: This wonderful group is certainly 'my ticket' to somehow one day I could "know and see" Metta, Leonardo 1098 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:37am Subject: Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) > For some reason, something 'clicked' for me that > hadn't before--though I knew (theoretically) that each > citta bears all the conditions of all previous cittas > (right?), I hadn't put it together that each citta is > the bearer of all 'accumulations'. Dear Mike, YESS! > If this is correct: In sankhaarupaadaana, with what > does grasping (or identification) identify? Is this > just a single citta (or series of cittas) that has the > characteristic of identifying with previous cittas? When the citta falls away it becomes the anantara paccaya (immediate cause) for the next citta to arise, passing onto the new citta all the accumulations in it. > Also: If it is true that only one citta can arise at > a time, doesn't each citta, bearing all the conditions > of all previous cittas, have both kusala and akusala > characteristics? If so, than can kusala and akusala > arise simultaneously? Kusala and akusala can never arise together to do their functions, which does not mean that one is temporarily not there, they are, if panna has not eradicated them completely yet (as in the respective levels of ariya puggala) but as latent tendencies, until the right conditions cause them to arise to do their function. Which is why there are three levels or strengths to the cetasikas, I quote from Khun Sujin's 'Summary' (in the advanced section of ) There are 3 levels of kilesa namely, anusaya-kilesa, pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa. Vitikkakama-kilesa is the coarse kilesa, causing one to break the sila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong action) physically or verbally. To virati is to refrain from Vitikkakama-kilesa with sila. Pariyutthana-kilesa is the medium kind of kilesa that arises with akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the sila and performing duccarita kamma. To refrain from pariyutthana-kilesa momentarily is called vikkhambhana-pahana with jhana-kusala-citta. Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa. When kilesa has not been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like sediment in the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise. All kilesa would be completely eradicated, never to arise again, when the lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the ariya-sacca-dhamma by experiencing the characteristics of nibbana according to the levels of the magga-citta, which completely eradicates kilesa according to the levels of the specific magga-citta. Before the enlightenment of the Buddha there were people who observed the precepts, abstaining from wrong doing and developing samatha-bhavana unto the arupa-jhana of the highest level, the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and temporarily suppressed kilesa as vikkhambhana-pahana. But none were able to eradicate anusaya-kilesa. When the Buddha had accumulated his parami for four asankheyya and a hundred thousand kappa, he became enlightened of the anuttarasammasambodhinana (the supreme omniscient self-enlightenment) as the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta. He manifested the way to practice towards the realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma so that there were many ariya-sankha-savaka (disciples) who attained the ariya-sacca-dhamma, eradicating kilesa. As long as there are those who study and practice the dhamma according to what he became enlightened with and manifested in detail all through 45 years, they continue to do so. The dhamma manifested by the Buddha is refined, intricate, and profound because he manifested the characteristics of realities with which he became enlightened by having fully realized the truth about the specific realities. Any who do not conscientiously study the dhamma he manifested to rightly understand it, would not be able to develop panna to fully realize the characteristics of realities and be able to eradicate kilesa. For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly are. The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and know that they still have all the kilesa. They must not desire to eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because they must first eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to realities that arise concurrently as the selves, entities and people. Only then would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, respectively. Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects? The same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense contact. Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way to practice to develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is kayanupassana-satipatthana. 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is vedananupassana-satipatthana. 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is cittanupassana-satipatthana. 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is dhammanupassana-satipatthana. The word satipatthana has 3 meanings: 1) Satipatthana is the paramattha-arammana or nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that sati is mindful of (the 4 satipatthana). 2) Satipatthana is the sati-cetasika that arises with kamavacara-nanasampayutta-citta that is mindful of the arammana that are satipatthana. 3) Satipatthana is the path taken by the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta and the ariya-savanna. It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, even including this lifetime each day since our birth. Those who understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are would therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and examining the dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to compose satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take note, examine and study the characteristics of the realities appearing according to what one has heard and understood. All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya or when the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. (End quote.) > Finally: Occuring for such an infinitesimally brief > period, does all of this really matter, for practical > purposes? Or is this only of theoretical importance? It is essential if one wants to know the truth about things, which for an eternity has never been taught. Again, nothing is lost, so in fact these tiny instants can actually eradicate an eternity of wrong view when accumulated to certain level, which is a wonderous discovery, because there is no other way at all! For me personally I prefer to live with knowledge of things as they really are, even if it is only in tiny instants, rather than in complete ignorance and illusion. I do not expect immediate results, but at least there is a glimmer of light in that direction and if we walk one step at a time we are sure to reach it one day, and I am secure in the knowledge that this path leads me to selflessness, and any freedom from the self is always kusala both for myself and for other people. Reading this now with the self may be discouraging, 'when am I ever going to reach this or that impossibly far off goal, what are my accumulations exactly, what if all my efforts are in vain?' But in reality whether we know it or not, they are all thoughts arising from seeing for passing instants 'vanno' through the eyes, followed by long trains of thoughts interposed by bhavanga, more sight, plus other nama and rupa arising. These are all real and we do not know their true nature without studying them, and studying them is the only way, according to the Buddha, to accumulate knowledge about them to such a degree that it could free you from all ignorance and kilesa. It may seem an impossibly difficult and long term project, but one must start somewhere and why not know that it can arise at any time and place and study as often as sati can arise? The Buddha spent impossibly long eons studying also, ever since he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to be a future Buddha four assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ago. The dhamma is not easy, in fact Khun Sujin said to say that it is hard is to appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha. This is why he exhorted us to be brave and cheerful, and have viriya or perseverence against all odds, so that we live in knowledge of things as they really are and could reach the ultimate knowledge one day, after all we must all have very good accumulations to have found his teachings and kalayanamitta along the way. It is an ultimately lonely path that each must walk alone, but while we are in such company it is both beneficial and encouraging, after all the sasana is still there to lead us to the truth and freedom, Sorry for the endless essay, hope you find something useful, Amara PS. When you address me as ma'am I couldn't help wondering if I sounded overly pedantic, sir! 1099 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert, I am sure 'you are' a complex and keen mix of aggregates, functioning as a wonderful Dhamma-friend :-) Mettta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > Dear leornardo, > My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. > My understanding is almost all at the theoretical > level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I > paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms > writings and letters - but how well I really > understand them is another matter. > So many levels of understanding even at the > theoretical level. > Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is > dangerous. > Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. > Robert > --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > > > Your writings are so impressive. > > > > Thanks once more, > > Metta, > > Leonardo > > > > > > 1100 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear m .nease, Thank you very much ! Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "m. nease" Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study > Dear Leonardo, > > Thought you might also appreciate this look at the way > different 'types' got along in the Buddha's day--if > you haven't read it before--Sean's great translation > reminded me of it. It's from Sanghadisesa (pardon my > spelling!) VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, > translated by I.B. Horner: > > "Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so > chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for > those monks who belonged to the same company. For > those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a > lodging in the same place, saying: "These will be > able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For > those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a > lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide > upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks > teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same > place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma with one > another." For those monks who were musers he assigned > a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will not > disturb one another." For those monks who lived > indulging in low talk and who were athletic he > assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These > reverend ones will live according to their pleasure." > > Pretty smart seven-year old! How often do we see this > kind of equanimity towards those of a different bent > today? > 1101 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) Amara, this is excellent--thank you! Pedantic? Hardly: Main Entry: pe·dan·tic Pronunciation: pi-'dan-tik Function: adjective Date: circa 1600 1 : of, relating to, or being a pedant 2 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned 3 : UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN - pe·dan·ti·cal·ly /-'dan-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb (From World Wide Webster, at http://www.m-w.com/) Learned, definitely! Narrow, stodgy, or ostentatious--never! UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN? NOPE. Using 'ma'am' and 'sir' are just habits of speech that were common where I grew up. But now, I appreciate the somewhat quaint formality of them in a time and place of such pervasive informality...and especially in addressing those who are worthy of respect. Sadhu, Ma'am! 1102 From: protectID=Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 6:34am Subject: Re: sila as foundation --- "Leonardo Neves" wrote: > We have to bear in mind that perhaps Bodhi`s articles don`t address to > Roberts, Sarahs, Jonothans, Amaras, Alexs :-) ... but for a different kind of people. Dear Leonardo, I'm sure that you made a typing mistake here because whatever Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, he must have included Alexs in the group of "different kind of people." :-))) I'll study everyone's today posts more carefully tonight. Thank you. Metta, AT 1103 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 8:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > The subject of accumulations can be a difficult one > to > come to grips with. Accumulations are not absolute > realities (paramattha dhammas), but they pertain to > realities. Thanks (VERY much) to Amara, I think I'm beginning to get a handle on this. As I now understand, it (I hope), since each citta bears all the conditions of all previous cittas, it is in each citta that accumulations reside. > For example, at every moment of citta with lobha, > lobha is accumulated, and so our accumulations for > lobha change. Put simply, it means that the > tendency > for lobha to arise again increases. This tendency > is > not itself a reality to be known by direct > experience. > But when strong lobha arises, it is because just > such > a tendency has been accumulated, so to that extent > it > can be experienced. This makes perfect sense now. > When we talk about accumulations we are usually > referring to accumulations in relation to cetasikas > that fall within sankhara kkhanda (ie all cetasikas > except vedana and sanna). So this is perhaps the > connection you had in mind. Yes, it is. But my model of sankhara was way off! The cittas arising today have quite a different character than those arising day before yesterday. I have to say, thanks AGAIN to Amara! And, incidentally, to the person who passed along that chain letter hoax, as it was Amara's response that 'clicked' for me. Interesting case of kusala arising (albeit indirectly!) from akusala... > > This touches on another habit--I think of the > > present > > results of past kamma as 'vipaka'--Robert > responded > > to > > this question in a previous post, but I'm still > not > > clear on it. Isn't kamma just 'action' (mental, > > verbal and physical) and vipaka the result of the > > action? If so, I'm still not clear on the > > relationship between vipaka and sankhaara. Or am > I > > totally off base on both of these terms? > > Kamma is even more difficult to come to terms with. > I > can remember that it took me some time to realise > that > kamma is used in various senses. > > Kamma can refer, for example, to: > - in a general sense, an action/cause that produces > a > later experience/result > - even more generally, the store of such actions > that > we have accumulated (!) in the past > - in terms of absolute realities, the cetana > cetasika > (mental factor of volition) accompanying such action > - one of the 24 conditions (paccaya), ie describing > the relationship between 2 realities (kamma paccaya) > (There may be other meanings too). > > Correspondingly, vipaka can mean: > - the objects, pleasant or unpleasant, that we > experience through our sense-doors ...this one's still beyond me... > - our general lot in life > - the citta that experiences an object through one > of > the sense doors (vipaka citta) > - vipaka paccaya ...these also... > Of these various references, only cetana cetasika > (sankhara kkhanda) and vipaka citta (vinnana > kkhanda) > are stated in terms of paramattha dhammas. Well, I've still got a lot of homework to do. However, > kamma is used in various senses. ...does help. Vipaka is too, I guess. I think I've been taking these to be much more specific terms than they rightly are. > Confused? It goes with the job! Of course! But less so than yesterday (I THINK)... > We are all learning from and benefiting from the > discussions that are taking place. In my own case, > having lived in the virtual Dhamma desert of Hong > Kong > for many years, this list comes as a great blessing. Yep--very great indeed. Thanks again for your priceless roadside assistance... mn 1104 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:39am Subject: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear friends, Could you please clarify to me the differences between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara ? Thanks, Leonardo 1105 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear Robert, You've wrote: > ... However, impossible to hold on to such moments. If we > try to make them stay we are going against their > nature. They arise according to complex conditions. > This type of trying is actually upadana (grasping) of > the type that clings to wrong practice. It is a subtle > point: don't misunderstand. It is not that we just do > nothing and somehow everything works out - that is one > extreme. But so, so easy to do "something" with > attachment. Only we ourselves can learn what the > middle way is. > So much to say about this, so much more to do. > Robert A very profound remark .... Thanks, Leonardo 1106 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Leonardo, I was asking myself EXACTLY this question not two hours ago. Quite uncanny. mn --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear friends, > > Could you please clarify to me the differences > between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara > ? > > Thanks, > Leonardo > 1107 From: shinlin Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Dear M. Betty, Thankyou for your advise. Actually at the time, I was unable to determine whether it was real or not. All I thought of, was that if it is true, that was the least I could do to help. At the same time, I sort of analysized that if I sent this mail to the dhamma friends, it would not be of any lost to them because it is only a mail. That is why, I sent it. If there is anything, which I have caused to make the akusula citta to arise, I sincerely apologize for this matter and to the arising of akusula citta. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA | Dear Shin, | Am just trying to get through all the e-mails and finally came across this | plea for help. Unfortunately, despite the terrible emotional situation it | describes, the person/persons who start these things are really sick. They | play on the sympathy of others to fill up web space and the actions they | perform are really evil. It is, unfortunately, a chain letter HOAX. Think | about it: why should a company only finance this anguished father based on | how many people send e-mails? Why don't they just finance the kid's | operation if there really is such a case? They cannot put a link on how many | e-mails are sent because there is no address to which all of them can be | returned! Furthermore, the e-mails sent give absolutely no benefit to the | company, either. If there really is such a father out there, and the | daughter is indeed in serious condition in a hospital, think of the cruelty | of the perpetrators of these hoaxes by putting false hopes in the mind of a | frightened, vulnerable parent who cannot afford medical care! | | How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, | to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the | opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger | cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by such | people. | | | With metta, | Betty | | | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| 1108 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear friends, > > Could you please clarify to me the differences > between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara > ? > > Thanks, > Leonardo > Dear Leonardo and Mike, probably Amara or kom or jonothon will give the best answer to this but I will try a little from memory (be careful my memory is often wrong). This is the sort of question that comes up often at the large meetings when they have a panel discussion. When they used to meet at Wat Bovornivit every Sunday i went along sometimes. It was all in thai though so I got limited translations. This sort of question could last all day (9am -4pm) and possibly even until the next week. someone would have done research and have references to whereever the terms came up in the suttas, and someone else would know the commentarial and subcommentarial expalnations. Acharn somporn could explain subtle nuances and why sometimes the term meant this and sometimes it meant that. And many others would help out too. In view of this my brief explanation is going to be far too short and even possibly wrong in places. I will still give it in the hope that it will be improved. Yoniso manisikara means correct or wise attention; when there is wise attention to an object there are kusala cittas arising. Sampajana: clear comprehension. There are four types: from the satipatthana sutta commenatary; "1What takes place together with the aim called growth according to the Dhamma is purpose. The clear comprehension of purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear comprehension of purpose. 2The clear comprehension of what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear comprehension of suitability. 3The clear comprehension of the (mental) resort which is called the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, in going backwards and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is the clear comprehension of resort. 4Clear comprehension of NON_DELUSION is non-delusion that is clearly comprehending and is called non-stupefaction" When we talk about satipatthana we mean only the fourth type of sampajanna- NON DELUSION. And this is decribed in the commentary as follows "Further, non-confusion in going forwards and so forth is the clear comprehension of non-delusion. That should be understood in the following way: -- In this Dispensation, a monk, without confusing himself, like a blinded worldling who, while going forwards or backwards, becomes muddle-headed, and believes thus: "The soul (or self) goes forward" or "The act of going forwards is produced by the soul," or "I go forwards" or "The act of going forwards is produced by me," and the like, thinks: "When there is the arising in one of the thought 'I am going forwards,' just with that thought, appears the process of oscillation originating from mind which brings to birth bodily expression (or intimation). Thus by the way of the diffusion of the process of oscillation due to mental activity, this skeleton called the body goes forward." As we can see whenever there is sampajanna there must be wise attention. It seems to me that these two words are synonyms with perhaps subtle differences in meaning making one term suitable at times and another suitable at other times. Panna is also a synonym as is amoha. Ok that is my expanation. Please correct and improve. Robert > > 1109 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Could you please clarify to me the differences between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara Dear friends, As Robert explained, both has to do with wisdom and studying. As Khun Sujin explained and if I remember correctly, sampajanna precedes as well as supports satipatthana, while yoniso manasikara accompanies it. Sampajanna means not only clear but thorough and in all areas, for example sapaya sampajanna means to know what is convenient and benificient: does one have to wait for the evening to go to a Karaoke to see if one can have sati there or can we just be where we are, right now there are conditions for us to be here in front of the computer screen and study realities as they appear? And I was once in a nightclub in Paris with some friends and I could not stop some fleeting awareness from arising even if I had wanted to. Does location really matter? In one of the commentaries, seeing the chedi of a temple (in India) had been conditions for thousands of bhikkhus to attain stages of enlightenment, on hearing this many would try to rush there and try it out. They forget the bhikkhus LIVE where they see it daily. The commentary also says that when there are festivals when the towns people flock there it might not be the sapaya for some. Another is gojara sampajanna. Gojara is the place one travels to which is the place one is in or the path one takes. The places sati arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to continue to arise. There are, as Robert says, two other sampajanna which escape me at the moment, but as Khun Sujin recently explained them to Betty (who has great memory and a scholarly habit of taking notes) we might ask her to help explain them. Yoniso manasikara is manasikara that arises with satipatthana, the cetasika itself is one of the annasamana cetasika that are 'universal cetasika' that accompanies all citta. Its function is to be 'attentive, interested in the arammana. The interest in the arammana would be paccaya for the cetasika to think of the arammana and compose it into intricacies, infinite sciences in worldly matters. While in dhamma matters, it is to the contrary.' it studies realities as they really are, as nama and rupa, as the four paramatthadhamma. One ground rule for all is that the sati patthana can only have the paramattha dhamma as aramana, while the mind can have anything as aramana, whereas the five other dvara can only have their specific rupa as aramana. I think this is why intellectual understanding and sampajanna must precede any level of knowledge particularly satipatthana, from then on the individual accumulation proceeds to accumulate understanding of the realities as they really are at their own speed and depth, with or without further intelledtual or book study. In other words, so long as you study realities, whether or not you know the Pali term to designate them is a matter of communication. And since what you know do not depend on whether you can describe it or on a teacher to confirm the knowledge, nothing but the true experiences really count. Of course it is often a lot more fun to be studying even the Pali terms than the different species of prankton in the ocean, as well as infinitely more useful, I think! (I know, lobha!) I hope Betty sees this message soon and obliges us with the other two sampajanna, Amara 1110 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:58pm Subject: Re: Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Actually at the time, I was unable to > determine whether it was real or not. All I thought of, was that if it is > true, that was the least I could do to help. At the same time, I sort of > analysized that if I sent this mail to the dhamma friends, it would not be > of any lost to them because it is only a mail. That is why, I sent it. > If there is anything, which I have caused to make the akusula citta to > arise, I sincerely apologize for this matter and to the arising of akusula > citta. Dear Shin, I loved what Sotujana said when you first posted it, 'Hey, we've all fallen for things like this before because we are all trying to be good people.' We can all learn from it, and who would have thought it would have actually done some good for Mike in the end! Amara 1111 From: A T Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Robert, Leonardo, Mike and friends, Thank you for bringing up the definitions of these terms. When reading your posts, I did try to look them up in the Glossary last night, but could not understand them very well. Now, I begin to have some "intellectual" glimpse! I'm glad that we have the archive so that from time to time, we can go back to re-read these good articles. Thank you, my friends. Metta, Alex 1112 From: Mary Reinard Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:14pm Subject: Hello from Mary Hello everyone, I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging me to get on board and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very informative and well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not sure I'll have much to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest will be pee-qued just enough to push me out in the open. I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. Much Metta, Mary 1113 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:32pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara >The places sati arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in >the bhavanga, for example) Dear friends, Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the unique function of life continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and rupa) alive during that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of the kamma they have done. It does not accumulate anything further, it just passes on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, although all the cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything further, not even if they arise then. Amara 1114 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:45pm Subject: Re: Hello from Mary > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. Hello, Mary, Welcome and looking foreward to welcoming you back in a week! Have a nice time in the meantime, Amara 1115 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Welcome mary and thank you Mike for giving the invite. Anything you have to say will be most appreciated. (Don't feel offended if it sometimes gets dissected - or even diced, sliced and shred- we all put our comments out with the hope that others can see errors or improve what we say). robert --- Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging > me to get on board > and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very > informative and > well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not > sure I'll have much > to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest > will be pee-qued > just enough to push me out in the open. > > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello > just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this > group. > > Much Metta, > Mary > > 1116 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- > Dear friends, > > Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the unique > function of life > continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and > rupa) alive during > that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of > the kamma they > have done. It does not accumulate anything further, > it just passes > on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, > although all the > cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything > further, not > even if they arise then. > > Amara > > Dear Amara, You write "all the cetasika are there". I wondered a little about this. Bhavanga is a citta and it is not the same as cetasika. Cetasikas are not "inside" bhavanga although they arise at the same time. I know the anusaya (latent tendencies) are passed on from citta to citta but does accumulations mean exactly the same thing as cetasika? Lobha is a cetasika and a latent tendency but when we talk about it as cetasika do we not usually mean at the level of pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa rather than anusaya? Perhaps not- maybe you can clarify or ask Santi or Khun pracheun. Robert 1117 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:02pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > > Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the unique > > function of life > > continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and > > rupa) alive during > > that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of > > the kamma they > > have done. It does not accumulate anything further, > > it just passes > > on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, > > although all the > > cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything > > further, not > > even if they arise then. > > > > Amara > > > > Dear Amara, > You write "all the cetasika are there". I wondered a > little about this. Bhavanga is a citta and it is not > the same as cetasika. Cetasikas are not "inside" > bhavanga although they arise at the same time. > I know the anusaya (latent tendencies) are passed on > from citta to citta but does accumulations mean > exactly the same thing as cetasika? Lobha is a > cetasika and a latent tendency but when we talk about > it as cetasika do we not usually mean at the level of > pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa rather than > anusaya? Dear Robert, I am sure you did not expect an explanation, you know yourself that all realities in the world or out of it, no matter how intricate or immaterial, are classifiable as one of the four paramatthadhamma, and what are the realities you speak of classified as? We've been through more difficult tests than this one, by Khun Sujin, haven't we, Betty, Sukin et al? Amara 1118 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Actually, at the risk of seeming dense, I was looking for an explanation. Take the example of a moment with kusala citta associated with panna . Now the citta at that moment is has no akusala cetasikas accompanying it (at least this is my understanding) however at the anusaya level there is still much lobha ,moha and dosa. But usually we do not say that lobha, moha and dosa cetasikas are accompanying the citta at that time. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > > Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the > unique > > > function of life > > > continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika > and > > > rupa) alive during > > > that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka > they of > > > the kamma they > > > have done. It does not accumulate anything > further, > > > it just passes > > > on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, > > > although all the > > > cetasika are there, none of them accumulate > anything > > > further, not > > > even if they arise then. > > > > > > Amara > > > > > > Dear Amara, > > You write "all the cetasika are there". I wondered > a > > little about this. Bhavanga is a citta and it is > not > > the same as cetasika. Cetasikas are not "inside" > > bhavanga although they arise at the same time. > > I know the anusaya (latent tendencies) are passed > on > > from citta to citta but does accumulations mean > > exactly the same thing as cetasika? Lobha is a > > cetasika and a latent tendency but when we talk > about > > it as cetasika do we not usually mean at the level > of > > pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa rather > than > > anusaya? > > > Dear Robert, > > I am sure you did not expect an explanation, you > know yourself that > all realities in the world or out of it, no matter > how intricate or > immaterial, are classifiable as one of the four > paramatthadhamma, > and what are the realities you speak of classified > as? > > We've been through more difficult tests than this > one, by Khun > Sujin, haven't we, Betty, Sukin et al? > > Amara > > 1119 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:14pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Take the example of a moment with kusala citta > associated with panna . Now the citta at that moment > is has no akusala cetasikas accompanying it (at least > this is my understanding) however at the anusaya level > there is still much lobha ,moha and dosa. But usually > we do not say that lobha, moha and dosa cetasikas are > accompanying the citta at that time. > Robert Dear Robert, So they never arise to function together, and when we describe the citta through their function, we must say that this one does the function of bhavanga, that of seeing, those of kusala and akusala, and describe the cetasika that accompany them in their function, we do not speak of the anusaya because they are inoperative at the time, but lay dormant, because we are not the arahanta or any level of ariya puggala it is the same for all, one does not need to describe all 52 minus whatever is in operation for all the types of citta, do we? So generally what we describe are those that are conditioned to arise at that time to do their function. We just mention the 'active' ones and even so the finer points and combinations yeild at least 89-121 kinds in very general categories already, do you need more? In fact there are as many different citta as there are living things because no two are exactly the same, at each moment, even when you and I are seeing the same things. No matter the classifications, so long as we know they are nama and rupa and not the self. Amara 1120 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Mary Hello and welcome from me. We look forward to having you in our discussions. Do you have time to tell us something about yourself before going off for the week? (Not obligatory - we're just curious!) Jonothan --- Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging > me to get on board > and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very > informative and > well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not > sure I'll have much > to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest > will be pee-qued > just enough to push me out in the open. > > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello > just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this > group. > > Much Metta, > Mary > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1121 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear leonardo, I was reading over your comments on Sarahs remarks about sila. Once again I am impressed by the careful consideration you give to what we all say. One point "Sila, as I understand, is a condition for sotapanna attainment. Am I wrong here ?." All kusala, no matter of what level, must be helpful. But how much does the type of sila that is conditioned by wrong view help? Muslims do not drink alcohol and this is good, but the reason for it is because they think it is ordained by God. Will that lead them to understand dhammas deeply? What leads to becoming a sotapanna is above all panna, wisdom, that penetrates the true nature of dhammas. At those moments there is sila of the highest degree, it is not taken for self. Remember that silabata upadana -clinging to sila, obstructs the path. Thanks for noticing my comments on another post: "However, impossible to hold on to such moments. If we > try to make them stay we are going against their > nature. They arise according to complex conditions. > This type of trying is actually upadana (grasping) of > the type that clings to wrong practice. It is a subtle > point: don't misunderstand. It is not that we just do > nothing and somehow everything works out - that is one > extreme. But so, so easy to do "something" with > attachment. Only we ourselves can learn what the > middle way is. " Robert 1122 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Thanks for giving the extra details. I am really quite weak in some of the finer details of Abhidhamma (lazy to learn)so all of this is most useful. It makes me think and even if I don't get the full meaning now it makes it easier next time conditions arise to contemplate it. Thanks Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Take the example of a moment with kusala citta > > associated with panna . Now the citta at that > moment > > is has no akusala cetasikas accompanying it (at > least > > this is my understanding) however at the anusaya > level > > there is still much lobha ,moha and dosa. But > usually > > we do not say that lobha, moha and dosa cetasikas > are > > accompanying the citta at that time. > > Robert > > > Dear Robert, > > So they never arise to function together, and when > we describe the > citta through their function, we must say that this > one does the > function of bhavanga, that of seeing, those of > kusala and akusala, > and describe the cetasika that accompany them in > their function, we > do not speak of the anusaya because they are > inoperative at the > time, but lay dormant, because we are not the > arahanta or any level > of ariya puggala it is the same for all, one does > not need to > describe all 52 minus whatever is in operation for > all the types of > citta, do we? So generally what we describe are > those that are > conditioned to arise at that time to do their > function. We just > mention the 'active' ones and even so the finer > points and > combinations yeild at least 89-121 kinds in very > general categories > already, do you need more? In fact there are as > many different > citta as there are living things because no two are > exactly the > same, at each moment, even when you and I are seeing > the same > things. No matter the classifications, so long as > we know they are > nama and rupa and not the self. > > Amara > > 1123 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:46pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara It makes > me think and even if I don't get the full meaning now > it makes it easier next time conditions arise to > contemplate it. Dear Robert, You are so well read, much more so than I am, and help us so much to find the right books and detailed studies. Sometimes you forget the simple basics, that is all. (Are you sure this is not another test?) Amara 1124 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:10pm Subject: [Fwd: About.com Link] The following link was forwarded to you by a visitor to About, http://home.about.com./ Betty Yugala thought that you would be interested in http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blfatima.htm from Urban Legends and Folklore, an About Site. If you haven't heard any strange stories lately, check here. Plus, examine how false legends often paint a true cultural picture. From about.com. Please note the this email was initiated by Betty, not by personnel at About or the Urban Legends and Folklore Site. About does not monitor these emails, nor can we be responsible for any comments or contents forwarded by the sender. We hope you enjoy the recommended page and remind you that you can always access About directly at http://home.about.com./ 1125 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hoaxes, etc [Was:Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA] Dear Alex, Many thanks for your helpful info. I mailed a copy of the page with that letter to our dhammastudy group. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hoaxes, etc [Was:Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA] > Dear Betty, Shin, and friends, > > I agree with you entirely, Betty. Whenever in doubt, we can check from > the internet by searching "urban legends" in any searching engines. One of > the sources I usually refer to is the following webpage: > > http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm > > With Metta, > Alex Tran 1126 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) Dear amara, thank you for this excellent and detailed reply which I found very useful Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > For some reason, something 'clicked' for me that > > hadn't before--though I knew (theoretically) that > each > > citta bears all the conditions of all previous > cittas > > (right?), I hadn't put it together that each citta > is > > the bearer of all 'accumulations'. > > > Dear Mike, > > YESS! > > > > If this is correct: In sankhaarupaadaana, with > what > > does grasping (or identification) identify? Is > this > > just a single citta (or series of cittas) that has > the > > characteristic of identifying with previous > cittas? > > > When the citta falls away it becomes the anantara > paccaya (immediate > cause) for the next citta to arise, passing onto the > new citta all > the accumulations in it. > > > > Also: If it is true that only one citta can arise > at > > a time, doesn't each citta, bearing all the > conditions > > of all previous cittas, have both kusala and > akusala > > characteristics? If so, than can kusala and > akusala > > arise simultaneously? > > > Kusala and akusala can never arise together to do > their functions, > which does not mean that one is temporarily not > there, they are, if > panna has not eradicated them completely yet (as in > the respective > levels of ariya puggala) but as latent tendencies, > until the right > conditions cause them to arise to do their function. > Which is why > there are three levels or strengths to the > cetasikas, I quote from > Khun Sujin's 'Summary' (in the advanced section of > ) > There are 3 levels of kilesa namely, > anusaya-kilesa, > pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa. > > Vitikkakama-kilesa is the coarse kilesa, causing > one to break the > sila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong > action) > physically or verbally. To virati is to refrain > from > Vitikkakama-kilesa with sila. > > Pariyutthana-kilesa is the medium kind of kilesa > that arises with > akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the > sila and > performing duccarita kamma. To refrain from > pariyutthana-kilesa > momentarily is called vikkhambhana-pahana with > jhana-kusala-citta. > > Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa. When kilesa > has not been > eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like > sediment in the > cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, > like a seed, a > paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise. All > kilesa would be > completely eradicated, never to arise again, when > the > lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the > ariya-sacca-dhamma by > experiencing the characteristics of nibbana > according to the levels > of the magga-citta, which completely eradicates > kilesa according to > the levels of the specific magga-citta. > > Before the enlightenment of the Buddha there were > people who > observed the precepts, abstaining from wrong doing > and developing > samatha-bhavana unto the arupa-jhana of the highest > level, the > nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and temporarily > suppressed kilesa as > vikkhambhana-pahana. But none were able to > eradicate > anusaya-kilesa. > > When the Buddha had accumulated his parami for four > asankheyya and > a hundred thousand kappa, he became enlightened of > the > anuttarasammasambodhinana (the supreme omniscient > self-enlightenment) as the Sammasambuddha the > Arahanta. > > He manifested the way to practice towards the > realization of the > ariya-sacca-dhamma so that there were many > ariya-sankha-savaka > (disciples) who attained the ariya-sacca-dhamma, > eradicating kilesa. > As long as there are those who study and practice > the dhamma > according to what he became enlightened with and > manifested in > detail all through 45 years, they continue to do so. > The dhamma > manifested by the Buddha is refined, intricate, and > profound > because he manifested the characteristics of > realities with which > he became enlightened by having fully realized the > truth about the > specific realities. Any who do not conscientiously > study the dhamma > he manifested to rightly understand it, would not be > able to develop > panna to fully realize the characteristics of > realities and be able > to eradicate kilesa. > > For panna to be able to fully realize the > characteristics of > realities as they really are, there must be right > understanding > from the start what are the realities that panna > would fully realize > the truth about: which is all that are real, that > are appearing > through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and > mind at this > very > moment. > > It means that when there is seeing, hearing, > smelling, tasting, > knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no > knowledge of the > true characteristics of realities as they truly are. > The Buddha > manifested the realities that arise, appear and > evolve through the > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every > day at each > instant in detail, so one might see the harm of > akusala-dhamma and > samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one > would not > endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which > is the panna > that fully realizes the characteristics of realities > appearing as > they truly are normally until kilesa can be > eradicated. > > The development of samatha-bhavana and that of > vipassana-bhavana > differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The > former has > aramana which render the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful > upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely > based on a > unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has > paramattha-aramana, namely > nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and > fall away as > aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta > begin to take > note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, > constantly until > it knows that they are realities that are not > entities, persons, or > the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be > born a > brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of > vipassana-bhavana > is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of > realities as > they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely > according to the > level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as > arammana unto the > level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely > eradicates all > kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more > rebirth. > > Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be > straight and true and > know that they still have all the kilesa. They must > not desire to > eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person > cannot > precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because > they must first > eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, > that clings to > realities that arise concurrently as the selves, > entities and > people. Only then would other kilesa be eradicated > in sequence, > respectively. > > Since one does not know that the instant of seeing > is not the self, > entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its > effects? The > same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and > knowing bodysense > contact. > > Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing > completely very > rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way > to practice to > develop panna to realize the truth about realities: > that there is > only one way, the development of the eightfold > ariya-magga namely > samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa > (vitaka-cetasika), > samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta > (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva > (samma-ajiva-cetasika), > samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati > (sati-cetasika) > samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). > > At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the > fivefold path > (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a > time, the 3 > virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the > lokuttara-citta) > would arise and perform their functions together in > the instant that > sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities > that are either > nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, > nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that > arises concurrently > with samma-sati at that instant would start to take > note, examine > and know the characteristics of the specific > nama-dhamma or > rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and > constantly until there > is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or > rupa-dhamma. > > Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, > bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 > sati-patthana. When > sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of > distinct > realities as > > 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises > to be mindful > of the characteristics of rupa through the > bodysense, it is > kayanupassana-satipatthana. > > 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati > arises to be mindful > of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it > is > vedananupassana-satipatthana. > > 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises > to be mindful > of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, > it is > cittanupassana-satipatthana. > > 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati > arises to be mindful > of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or > nama-dhamma, it is > dhammanupassana-satipatthana. > > The word satipatthana has 3 meanings: > > 1) Satipatthana is the paramattha-arammana or > nama-dhamma and > rupa-dhamma that sati is mindful of (the 4 > satipatthana). > > 2) Satipatthana is the sati-cetasika that arises > with > kamavacara-nanasampayutta-citta that is mindful of > the arammana that > are satipatthana. > > 3) Satipatthana is the path taken by the > Sammasambuddha the Arahanta > and the ariya-savanna. > > It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the > eight ariya-magga > or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be > mindful of the > characteristics of each reality that arises and > appears through > the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind > each day to arise, > according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the > akusala-dhamma > accumulated over such a long period of time in the > samsara-vatta, > even including this lifetime each day since our > birth. Those who > understand the causes and results of realities as > they truly are > would therefore be persistent in listening to, > studying and > examining the dhamma to understand about realities > through the > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until > it becomes > paccaya to compose satipatthana to arise and to be > correctly > mindful, take note, examine and study the > characteristics of the > realities appearing according to what one has heard > and understood. > All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold > ariya-magga, > are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya > or when the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently > accumulated, there > would be no more turning towards other practices > than mindfulness, > noting and examining nama-dhamma and > rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, > ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense and mind. (End quote.) > > > > Finally: Occuring for such an infinitesimally > brief > > period, does all of this really matter, for > practical > > purposes? Or is this only of theoretical > importance? > > > It is essential if one wants to know the truth about > things, which > for an eternity has never been taught. Again, > nothing is lost, so > in fact these tiny instants can actually eradicate > an eternity of > wrong view when accumulated to certain level, which > is a wonderous > discovery, because there is no other way at all! > For me personally > I prefer to live with knowledge of things as they > really are, even > if it is only in tiny instants, rather than in > complete ignorance > and illusion. I do not expect immediate results, > but at least there > is a glimmer of light in that direction and if we > walk one step at > a time we are sure to reach it one day, and I am > secure in the > knowledge that this path leads me to selflessness, > and any freedom > from the self is always kusala both for myself and > for other people. > Reading this now with the self may be discouraging, > 'when am I ever > going to reach this or that impossibly far off goal, > what are my > accumulations exactly, what if all my efforts are in > vain?' > > But in reality whether we know it or not, they are > all thoughts > arising from seeing for passing instants 'vanno' > through the eyes, > followed by long trains of thoughts interposed by > bhavanga, more > sight, plus other nama and rupa arising. These are > all real and we > do not know their true nature without studying them, > and studying > them is the only way, according to the Buddha, to > accumulate > knowledge about them to such a degree that it could > free you from > all ignorance and kilesa. It may seem an impossibly > difficult and > long term project, but one must start somewhere and > why not know > that it can arise at any time and place and study as > often as sati > can arise? The Buddha spent impossibly long eons > studying also, > ever since he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara > to be a future > Buddha four assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa > ago. The dhamma > is not easy, in fact Khun Sujin said to say that it > is hard is to > appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha. > > This is why he exhorted us to be brave and cheerful, > and have viriya > or perseverence against all odds, so that we live in > knowledge of > things as they really are and could reach the > ultimate knowledge one > day, after all we must all have very good > accumulations to have > found his teachings and kalayanamitta along the way. > It is an > ultimately lonely path that each must walk alone, > but while we are > in such company it is both beneficial and > encouraging, after all the > sasana is still there to lead us to the truth and > freedom, > > Sorry for the endless essay, hope you find something > useful, > > Amara > > PS. When you address me as ma'am I couldn't help > wondering if I > sounded overly pedantic, sir! > > 1127 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Dear Shin, No, you did not cause akusala cittas to arise because you sincerely thought that you were helping a terribly injured child. The people that began it, thought it up, they have created akusala kamma for themselves. Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA > Dear M. Betty, > Thankyou for your advise. Actually at the time, I was unable to > determine whether it was real or not. All I thought of, was that if it is > true, that was the least I could do to help. At the same time, I sort of > analysized that if I sent this mail to the dhamma friends, it would not be > of any lost to them because it is only a mail. That is why, I sent it. > If there is anything, which I have caused to make the akusula citta to > arise, I sincerely apologize for this matter and to the arising of akusula > citta. > with metta, > Shin 1128 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 8:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Robert et al., Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair to say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna usually refers to understanding, and that yoniso manasikara refers to 'attending', in the sense of deliberately taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks to Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection refers specifically to samatha bhavana: Sabbasava Sutta: "...When attending unwisely non-arisen desires arise and arisen desires grow. When attending wisely non-arisen desires do not arise and arisen desires fade. Bhikkhus, there are desires to be turned out reflecting wisely..." http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/002-sabbasava-sutta-e1.htm Vitakka-santhana Sutta "...When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Like an experienced carpenter or carpenter's apprentice, striking hard at, pushing out, and getting rid of a coarse peg with a fine one, should the bhikkhu in order to get rid of the adventitious object, reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)." http://www.geocities.com/~wtwilson3/removal.htm My Pali is nearly non-existent, so I'm not sure that yoniso manasikara is what's being referred to in these discourses. They, do reflect, though, what I took this to mean in the past--before I found this group. Please advise! Thanks...mn wrote: > Yoniso manisikara means correct or wise attention; > when there is wise attention to an object there are > kusala cittas arising. > > Sampajana: clear comprehension. There are four > types: > from the satipatthana sutta commenatary; "1What > takes > place together with the aim called growth according > to > the Dhamma is purpose. The clear comprehension of > purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear > comprehension of purpose. 2The clear comprehension > of > what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear > comprehension of suitability. 3The clear > comprehension > of the (mental) resort which is called the subject > of > meditation that is unrelinquished, in going > backwards > and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is > the > clear comprehension of resort. 4Clear comprehension > of > NON_DELUSION is non-delusion that is clearly > comprehending and is called non-stupefaction" > > When we talk about satipatthana we mean only the > fourth type of sampajanna- NON DELUSION. > > And this is decribed in the commentary as follows > "Further, non-confusion in going forwards and so > forth > is the clear comprehension of non-delusion. That > should be understood in the following way: -- In > this > Dispensation, a monk, without confusing himself, > like > a blinded worldling who, while going forwards or > backwards, becomes muddle-headed, and believes thus: > "The soul (or self) goes forward" or "The act of > going > forwards is produced by the soul," or "I go > forwards" > or "The act of going forwards is produced by me," > and > the like, thinks: "When there is the arising in one > of > the thought 'I am going forwards,' just with that > thought, appears the process of oscillation > originating from mind which brings to birth bodily > expression (or intimation). Thus by the way of the > diffusion of the process of oscillation due to > mental > activity, this skeleton called the body goes > forward." > As we can see whenever there is sampajanna there > must > be wise attention. It seems to me that these two > words > are synonyms with perhaps subtle differences in > meaning making one term suitable at times and > another > suitable at other times. Panna is also a synonym as > is amoha. 1129 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 4:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Dear Mary, I'm so glad to see that Mike's got to the bugging others stage! (that's our 2nd level, Mike!) Yes, hope there's plenty to push you in the open (1st level!) and as Jonothan said, if you feel like filling in any background, it helps us understand 'where you come from' so to speak. Hope you find the posts as useful as the rest of us, Thanks for mentioning your presence. You may get a shock when you see what a week's worth of mail amounts to these days...we've broken all records and we're not even half way through the month. Some members like Leonardo and myself are always trying to catch up! Best wishes, Sarah >Hello everyone, > >I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging me to get on board >and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very informative and >well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not sure I'll have much >to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest will be pee-qued >just enough to push me out in the open. > >I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. > >Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. > >Much Metta, >Mary > 1130 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear friends , A little more on sila and wisdom. The Buddha said that of all evil the worst is miccha-ditthi. Does that surprise? Which is worst, killing your mother and father, causing a schism in the sangha, killing an arahant or miccha-ditthi of the type that denies causality and kamma? According to buddhist teachings the very worst crime which if clung to must lead to immediate rebirth in hell (at death) is this type of miccha-ditthi! And all extreme types of miccha-ditthi are spring from, are rooted in sakkya ditthi- the belief that the five khandas (which are only ephemeral phenomena) are self. If someone holds only sakkya ditthi - but it has not blossomed into strong miccha-ditthi (he still believes in kamma and result)then he can still do samattha bhavana. But who knows when the one with sakkya ditthi will do some evil. Devadatta had full mastery of mundane jhanas - an impressive accomplishment- but because of sakkya ditthi, self view, he later commited extreme akusala. Sakkya ditthi causes us enormous conflict in life . We think "sons have I, wealth have I" and thus when sons and wealth perish we suffer greatly. In truth there is no I, - what to speak of sons and wealth " (I paraphrase a sutta here.) In short sila and samattha can take us to the highest realms of existence but it is ditthi, view, that keeps us in samsara. We can accomplish sila and samattha even outside a Buddha's dispensation but we can only develop wisdom that breaks up the causes for samsara by hearing, considering and applying the deep teachings to do with the void, anatta, the pancakhanda, dhatus, ayatanas, paticcusamupada, 24 paccaya. Robert 1131 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert et al., > > Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair to > say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna usually > refers to understanding, and that yoniso manasikara > refers to 'attending', in the sense of deliberately > taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks to > Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection refers > specifically to samatha bhavana: > This made me think a bit more (thanks Mike).Yoniso maniskara is present during moments of vipassana as well as during moments of samattha. However it is true that the type of sampajana that is called non-delusion arises only during satipatthana-(and yoniso manisikara is there too). Manisikara, attention, is a cetasika that arises with every citta. When it arises with samattha its object is one of the 40 objects that condition calm. When it arises with vipassana its object is a paramattha dhamma. When manisikara arise with akusala citta it is not yoniso. I said earler that it seems like yoniso manisikara and sampajana are synonyms but this shows they may be different although they arise together. Robert > 1132 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:22pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear friends , > A little more on sila and wisdom. > The Buddha said that of all > evil the worst is miccha-ditthi. Dear Robert and friends, Yes, it is. Ditthi is the foundation of everything we act, say, and think. If we have wrong view, how unfortunate we are. With right view, everything is falling into its place. However, to have right view, we must have panna. Only panna may eradicate avijja. And only at the level of sotapanna, we can have samma ditthi. For most of us, we just have to continue studying. Gradually, when conditions are right, panna will be there. Thank you, Robert. Metta, Alex 1133 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Robert et. al, Manasikara cetaskia arises with every citta, be it Kusala, Akusala, Vipaka, and Kiriya. Yoniso manaskira, as discussed by the bay area studying group, arises with only Kusala citta (also Kiriya citta???). When the citta is Kusala, the companying manasikara is considered yoniso regardless if panna arises along with it. Yoniso manaskira therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's not considered as samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana. Sampajanya is panna. The question is what level of panna is Sampajanya. Since I don't remember ever seeing it being used outside of Satipatthana, I am inclined to think that it is at the level of Satipatthana. I remember the short thai translation of "Sati Sampajanya" as knowing thoroughly, knowing completely. My understanding of these definitions are murky at best, as it is remembering something that somebody has said. Hope this doesn't add to the confusion. Besides as a cetasika, manasikara is also used to describe cittas: Dhavaravajanna citta opens the way to "vidhi" cittas. Potappana citta opens the way to Jhavana cittas. In a sense, then manasikara opens the way to whether the Jhavana citta is kusala or akusala. Yoniso manasikara opens the way for the jhavana citta for being kusala. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Manisikara, attention, is a cetasika that arises > with every citta. When it arises with samattha its > object is one of the 40 objects that condition calm. > When it arises with vipassana its object is a > paramattha dhamma. When manisikara arise with akusala > citta it is not yoniso. 1134 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Hi Alex, My understanding of the term samma ditthi is that it is panna knowing the realities as they are. Lay people who "develop" satipatthana may also have samma ditthi; however, only sotapanna can eradicate micha-ditthi permanently. --- protectID wrote: > However, to have right view, we must have panna. Only panna may > eradicate avijja. And only at the level of sotapanna, we can have > samma ditthi. > > For most of us, we just have to continue studying. Gradually, > when conditions are right, panna will be there. > > Thank you, Robert. > > Metta, > Alex 1135 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Robert, sorry for the late response.... I found yr notes with Nina's partial translation of the commentary v.helpful. When it's appropriate & you feel so inclined, do pls add any other parts from yr correspondence with her and discussion on any particular suttas, commentary notes she has made... thanks to Leonardo for the original dhamma list mail from Sean Whittle too.... Sarah >I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about >this sutta. >The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the >translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles >translation of this term to one I read that had >Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of >monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus >had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have >been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. > >The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga >bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary >person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because >they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > >I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would >be good to ask him to translate this also rather than >just give a very brief note as he did. We are >painfully short of commentarial translations whereas >this sutta has been translated several times already. > > Nina translated part of it: >The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are >often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. >Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless >(amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body >i.e.cetasikas) >The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) >penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas >(aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas >(sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta >(i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with >vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which >penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level >of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > > > > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > > Mahacunda was living in > > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > > Mahacunda addressed the > > monks: "Monks!" > > > > "Yes, friend." > > > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > > the Dhamma that harass > > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > > 'Those meditators, they > > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice for > > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > > the welfare, the good, and > > the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > > harass and disparage the > > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > > 'Those monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > > unsteady, talkative and > > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > > with minds wandering and > > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > > to the Dhamma for? On > > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > > nor the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice > > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > > for the welfare, the good, > > and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma speak delightful > > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > > not speak delightful to > > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > > monks, nor the monks who > > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > > Moreover, they do not > > practice for the good and well-being of the > > multitude, nor for the welfare, > > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > > delightful only to other > > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > > monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > > to the Dhamma, nor the > > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > > do not practice for the > > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > > welfare, the good, and the > > well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma should train > > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > > manner to the meditation > > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is > > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > > dwells having personally > > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > > friends, the meditation monks > > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > > delightful manner to the > > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > > train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > > extraordinary person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees." > > > > Notes: > > > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > > the Dhamma are called > > this because they expound the teachings, and the > > monks who are meditators > > are called this simply because they meditate(or > > dwell in mental absorption). > > > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > > This is a passage which is > > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > > meditation practice. It > > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > > remark to cause virtuous > > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > > opportunity, and in sutta > > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > > while being obsessed by the > > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > > unknown to me, I have > > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > > rendering these with > > their literal meanings. > > > > 3. nibbana > > Sean > > > > 1136 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Robert, Thanks for expanding on this area. I suppose Miccha-ditthi is the worst of all evil because it prevents nibbhana. Most other kinds of evil, except for the ones you mentioned here, don't prevent nibbhana. Even killing, a karma that seems pretty bad to me, doesn't prevent nibbhana. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear friends , > A little more on sila and wisdom. > The Buddha said that of all > evil the worst is miccha-ditthi. Does that surprise? > Which is worst, killing your mother and father, > causing a schism in the sangha, killing an arahant or > miccha-ditthi of the type that denies causality and > kamma? According to buddhist teachings the very worst > crime which if clung to must lead to immediate rebirth > in hell (at death) is this type of miccha-ditthi! And > all extreme types of miccha-ditthi are spring from, > are rooted in sakkya ditthi- the belief that the five > khandas (which are only ephemeral phenomena) are self. > 1138 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation/wisdom Ditthi is the foundation of > everything we act, say, > and think. If we have wrong view, how unfortunate > we are. With > right view, everything is falling into its place. > > However, to have right view, we must have panna. > Only panna may > eradicate avijja. And only at the level of > sotapanna, we can have > samma ditthi. > Thanks for the post Alex. You really see how dangerous ditthi is. While only the sotapanna has eliminated miccha-ditthi and sakkya ditthi I think we can still say that when there is true awareness of the characteristic of a dhamma that there is a moment of samma-ditthi. If one is not yet a sotapanna then it is true that lying latent there will be miccha-ditthi. However, the moments of satipatthana are actually digging away, rubbing away, grinding away that miccha-ditthi. When we listen to a little of the deep teaching of abhidhamma or anything about anatta or khandas etc. this is a time when we are clearing the garden for direct understanding of realities (as you encouraged us ). If there has been prior development that lsitening could condition direct understanding immediately and if panna is sufficiently accumulated nibbana could be experienced. Even considering now while we are reading(and writing) this could condition deep insight. In the commentary to the Abhidhamma it gives the story of the 500 extremely wise arahant disciples of sariputta. Remember it was sariputta who received the outline to all the Abhidhamma from the Buddha and passed it on to his students. These men had all been in a long past life bats in a cave at the time of kassapa Buddha (see p21 of the atthasalini). They listened to two monks who used to recite Abhidhamma and although unable to understand the words knew that this is the law. After death they were all born in the deva world until the time of our Buddha when they became monks and arahants. Does this seem implausible? Not when we see realize the extraordinary power of the Dhamma. The Dhamma - the Buddha's teaching - is the condition for overcoming all defilements. The benefits of listening to Abhidhamma are immeasurable - let alone considering and applying it. Of course this cannot have been the first time these monks had listened to Abhidhamma. They had the vipaka to listen because of past merit and they also must have accumlated wisdom before this. How about us now? We are human, we can understand the deep meaning - to varying degrees- of the Abhidhamma. We can distinguish infinitely more than those bats. We can ask questions, consider and perhaps have direct awareness of parammttha dhammas, even at this moment. Surely we are in a fortunate position! Even if we get just one little instant of trifling understanding this is accumulated and passed on( as Amara said so well today). 1139 From: A T Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear Kom, You are correct. I need to be more precise when posting. Otherwise, there may be misunderstanding. Thank you, Kom. Metta, Alex =========== >From: Kom Tukovinit >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:47:43 -0700 (PDT) > >Hi Alex, > >My understanding of the term samma ditthi is that it is panna knowing >the realities as they are. Lay people who "develop" satipatthana may >also have samma ditthi; however, only sotapanna can eradicate >micha-ditthi permanently. > >--- protectID wrote: > > However, to have right view, we must have panna. Only panna may > > eradicate avijja. And only at the level of sotapanna, we can have > > samma ditthi. > > > > For most of us, we just have to continue studying. Gradually, > > when conditions are right, panna will be there. > > > > Thank you, Robert. > > > > Metta, > > Alex 1140 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear alex, Thank you for your humility! Such an asset when we study Dhamma - one like you is always happy to be corrected. Rahula was like that. Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear Kom, > > You are correct. I need to be more precise when > posting. Otherwise, > there may be misunderstanding. > > Thank you, Kom. > > Metta, > Alex > =========== > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as > foundation > >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:47:43 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Hi Alex, > > > >My understanding of the term samma ditthi is that > it is panna knowing > >the realities as they are. Lay people who > "develop" satipatthana may > >also have samma ditthi; however, only sotapanna can > eradicate > >micha-ditthi permanently. > > 1141 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:28pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Manasikara cetaskia arises with every citta, be it Kusala, Akusala, > Vipaka, and Kiriya. Yoniso manaskira, as discussed by the bay area > studying group, arises with only Kusala citta (also Kiriya citta???). > When the citta is Kusala, the companying manasikara is considered > yoniso regardless if panna arises along with it. Yoniso manaskira > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's not considered as > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana. Dear friends, I agree with Kom for the first half of this paragraph, the part about the kiriya citta referred to is probably the kiriya citta of the arahanta which replaces the kusala and akusala citta after their attainment. I have to disagree withe the second part since in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana bhavana, page 519, Khun Sujin answered a question: Q: Supposing after paying respect to the Buddha and reciting the mantra, we think of doing kammatthana (meditation), how should one "yonisomanasikara" so that there is no abhijjha and domanassa in the arammana? A: For to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati in the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position one is in. (End quote.) This is also in the website of course, , advanced section, 'Summary' Part IX (Guidelines), in English and Thai. Amara 1142 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:39pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for the correction and quoting from A. Sujin. Now, there will be more than just my fuzzy memory to help define Yoniso Manasikara!!! kom --- "amara chay": A: For to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati in > the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore > one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because > one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on > schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying > respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does > not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the > realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are > paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does > not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one > would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and > experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is > performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position > one is in. > > (End quote.) > 1143 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Thanks (VERY much) to Amara, I think I'm beginning > to > get a handle on this. As I now understand, it (I > hope), since each citta bears all the conditions of > all previous cittas, it is in each citta that > accumulations reside... Mike As you will have realised by now, Amara is a living encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to match (you’d be surprised how many abhidhamma scholars there are who lack that quality!). We are very fortunate to have her on the list, and to have access to the materials on her website. I am glad that your patient consideration has borne fruit. Saddhu. Jonothan 1144 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 0:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear C and Robert, Thanks for these clarifications. My old views need a LOT of refining... mn --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert et. al, > > Manasikara cetaskia arises with every citta, be it > Kusala, Akusala, > Vipaka, and Kiriya. Yoniso manaskira, as discussed > by the bay area > studying group, arises with only Kusala citta (also > Kiriya citta???). > When the citta is Kusala, the companying manasikara > is considered > yoniso regardless if panna arises along with it. > Yoniso manaskira > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > not considered as > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana. > > Sampajanya is panna. The question is what level of > panna is > Sampajanya. Since I don't remember ever seeing it > being used outside > of Satipatthana, I am inclined to think that it is > at the level of > Satipatthana. I remember the short thai translation > of "Sati > Sampajanya" as knowing thoroughly, knowing > completely. > > My understanding of these definitions are murky at > best, as it is > remembering something that somebody has said. Hope > this doesn't add to > the confusion. > > Besides as a cetasika, manasikara is also used to > describe cittas: > > Dhavaravajanna citta opens the way to "vidhi" > cittas. > Potappana citta opens the way to Jhavana cittas. > In a sense, then manasikara opens the way to whether > the Jhavana citta > is kusala or akusala. Yoniso manasikara opens the > way for the jhavana > citta for being kusala. > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Manisikara, attention, is a cetasika that arises > > with every citta. When it arises with samattha its > > object is one of the 40 objects that condition > calm. > > When it arises with vipassana its object is a > > paramattha dhamma. When manisikara arise with > akusala > > citta it is not yoniso. > > 1145 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 0:46am Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair to > say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna usually > refers to understanding, and that yoniso manasikara > refers to 'attending', in the sense of deliberately > taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks to > Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection refers > specifically to samatha bhavana: Dear Mike, I have been thinking about your question, and I think we may safely say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to know what is good for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what is less suitable for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, asammoha sampajanna is also to know the difference between ignorance and right understanding, an essential prerequisite for panna that sees things as they really are. Sati sampajanna on the other hand is to be aware through all the dvara without prejudices or preferences. The first comes before the latter begins, and continues to support its future arising. Yoniso manasikara is right attention, instead of thinking of the object in terms of theories and attachments, it studies the characteristics of the realities that appear as aramana at that instant, as they really are. There is seeing now, the characteristics of seeing is vastly different from hearing, or tasting or the body sense, or thinking. Their objects or aramana are completely distinct. They are paramatthadhamma which none can change, arising and falling away according to conditions, uncontrolable. This is the truth, right before your eyes, so to speak. There is such an infinity of things to study in the dhamma, if you have awareness, and begin to see things you were never aware of before, in fact you will find it very interesting, to say the least. So, we must, as the Buddha taught us, be brave and cheerful and keep studying! (Which is why the arahanta are the only people who do not need to study any more, they have full knowledge of things as they really are.) Anumodana in your keen interest, Amara 1147 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:02am Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Amara is a living > encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to > match (you'd be surprised how many abhidhamma scholars > there are who lack that quality Dear mike, Jonothan is too kind, I wish what he said were true but it is not, I just know where to look for the real encyclopedia! Glad to have helped in any way, Amara 1148 From: A T Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear Robert, Thank you for the compliment. I'm humble to be compared to Ven. Rahula. Mettta, Alex Tran ============================ >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear alex, >Thank you for your humility! Such an asset when we >study Dhamma - one like you is always happy to be >corrected. Rahula was like that. >Robert >--- A T wrote: > Dear Kom, > > > > You are correct. I need to be more precise when > > posting. Otherwise, > > there may be misunderstanding. > > > > Thank you, Kom. > > > > Metta, > > Alex > > =========== 1149 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 4:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Amara, this is excellent. Thanks, everyone for the many insightful clarifications...mn --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair > to > > say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna > usually > > refers to understanding, and that yoniso > manasikara > > refers to 'attending', in the sense of > deliberately > > taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks > to > > Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection > refers > > specifically to samatha bhavana: > > > Dear Mike, > > I have been thinking about your question, and I > think we may safely > say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to > know what is good > for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what > is less suitable > for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, > asammoha sampajanna is > also to know the difference between ignorance and > right > understanding, an essential prerequisite for panna > that sees things > as they really are. Sati sampajanna on the other > hand is to be > aware through all the dvara without prejudices or > preferences. The > first comes before the latter begins, and continues > to support its > future arising. > > Yoniso manasikara is right attention, instead of > thinking of the > object in terms of theories and attachments, it > studies the > characteristics of the realities that appear as > aramana at that > instant, as they really are. There is seeing now, > the > characteristics of seeing is vastly different from > hearing, or > tasting or the body sense, or thinking. Their > objects or aramana > are completely distinct. They are paramatthadhamma > which none can > change, arising and falling away according to > conditions, > uncontrolable. This is the truth, right before your > eyes, so to > speak. > > There is such an infinity of things to study in the > dhamma, if you > have awareness, and begin to see things you were > never aware of > before, in fact you will find it very interesting, > to say the least. > So, we must, as the Buddha taught us, be brave and > cheerful and keep > studying! (Which is why the arahanta are the only > people who do not > need to study any more, they have full knowledge of > things as they > really are.) > > Anumodana in your keen interest, > > Amara > > > 1150 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 7:31am Subject: Ajahn Chah I just ran across this at Dhamma-List, also at Egroups. As an erstwhile student of Ajahn Chah's descendants, I've admired him for a long time. But sometimes I forget (and he often doesn't get credit for) his solid (I think!) grasp of abhidhamma. This is pretty simple stuff for the members of this group, but I wanted to share it with you anyway. I think this group is well equipped to appreciate it... As Ajahn Chah wrote in A Taste for Freedom: There are two kinds of peace -- the coarse and the refined. The peace which comes from samadhi is the coarse type. When the mind is peaceful there is happiness. The mind then takes this happiness to be peace. But happiness and unhappiness are becoming and birth. There is no escape from samsara here because we still cling to them. So happiness is not peace, peace is not happiness. The other type of peace is that which comes from wisdom. Here we don't confuse peace with happiness; we know the mind which contemplates and knows happiness and unhappiness as peace. The peace which arises from wisdom is not happiness, but is that which sees the truth of both happiness and unhappiness. Clinging to those states does not arise, the mind rises above them. This is the true goal of all Buddhist practice. (thanks to Greg Bester) 1151 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:29am Subject: Re: Ajahn Chah Robert, thanks for your kindness in replying off-list. In retrospect, I've been totally off-base about this, haven't I... Oh well! Back to the old drawing board... mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > Is there a mind? > Robert --- protectID wrote: > I just ran across this at Dhamma-List, also at Egroups. As an > erstwhile student of Ajahn Chah's descendants, I've admired him for > a long time. But sometimes I forget (and he often doesn't get > credit for) his solid (I think!) grasp of abhidhamma. > > This is pretty simple stuff for the members of this group, but I > wanted to share it with you anyway. I think this group is well > equipped to appreciate it... > > As Ajahn Chah wrote in A Taste for Freedom: > > There are two kinds of peace -- the coarse and the refined. The > peace which comes from samadhi is the coarse type. When the mind is > peaceful there is happiness. The mind then takes this happiness to > be peace. But happiness and unhappiness are becoming and birth. > There is no escape from samsara here because we still cling to > them. So happiness is not peace, peace is not happiness. > > The other type of peace is that which comes from wisdom. Here we > don't confuse peace with happiness; we know the mind which > contemplates and knows happiness and unhappiness as peace. The > peace which arises from wisdom is not happiness, but is that which > sees the truth of both happiness and unhappiness. Clinging to those > states does not arise, the mind rises above them. This is the true > goal of all Buddhist practice. > > (thanks to Greg Bester) 1152 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Hi Mary Welcome to our group, I'm sure you'll find so much information like myself, I've found this is another class of dhamma (beside Thai classes we have twice a week) only this one give me an opportunity to learn dhamma in English.espeacially the interaction between our members are very beneficial to all of us. Thanks to all, with metta, O 1153 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Chah --- Dear Mike, You are very quick to see considering you only had four words to work with (Is there a mind?)! We can see how ones like sariputta could become enlightened after a couple of sentences provided they had already accumulated much panna. Just for those of us who like/need details and repetition (please tell me if I sound like a stuck record sometimes) here is some more. I do appreciate that aacharn Cha was pointing out the clinging that we have to happy states and how real understanding sees all states as just dhammas- no preference. That is very helpful. Putting things simply is fine. However, Dhamma is deep - yet too many people think that because they understand simple aphorisms that they are really getting to the heart of Buddhism. Why do we have such a tendency to cling to pleasant states? The reason is because of vipallasa, perversions of view, that thinks such states last. We really believe that there is a mind that exists. Everyone, even from other religions or no religion, knows that mind changes rapidly, this is obvious even to citta with lobha or moha; but everyone (except the wise) still think it is "my mind" that is changing. If someone reads the passage by Cha and they have not properly understood Abhidhamma then it is inevitable that they will think it is "my mind" that clings or doesn't cling. However it is a cetasika, lobha, that clings; that is its function, when it arises it carries out its function, it is not our lobha, it is merely paramattha dhamma. If someone reads the passage and doesn't realize that there is no mind, that a trillion cittas, all different from the preceeding ones, arose and passed away just while they were reading it, then they might misunderstand. This is not to criticize Cha: you only cited a short piece, the very next paragraph may have explained this and the rest of the article/book may well have given innumerable details that make this point much clearer than I can. In the begining we - us serious Buddhsits that is- are very concerned with pleasant and unpleasant mindstates and later we are pleased when we develop equanamity about all these. This equanamity can be taken for a sign that progress in insight has occured. However it can all still be taken for self. We have to comprehend that all dhammas that occur in daily life must be treated as object for insight. Seeing is a nama, it arises again and again. Is there any understanding of it at this instant or are we intent on "balancing the faculties" or "not having clinging"? The citta that sees at this moment is a different citta from a second ago - and now that one has gone, forever; no man, no god can bring it back. This is theory- only by investigating, patiently, correctly, wisely, again and again, life after life can it be fully known. Robert > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > Is there a mind? > > Robert > > --- protectID > wrote: > > I just ran across this at Dhamma-List, also at > Egroups. As an > > erstwhile student of Ajahn Chah's descendants, > I've admired him for > > a long time. But sometimes I forget (and he often > doesn't get > > credit for) his solid (I think!) grasp of > abhidhamma. > > > > This is pretty simple stuff for the members of > this group, but I > > wanted to share it with you anyway. I think this > group is well > > equipped to appreciate it... > > > > As Ajahn Chah wrote in A Taste for Freedom: > > > > There are two kinds of peace -- the coarse and the > refined. The > > peace which comes from samadhi is the coarse type. > When the mind is > > peaceful there is happiness. The mind then takes > this happiness to > > be peace. But happiness and unhappiness are > becoming and birth. > > There is no escape from samsara here because we > still cling to > > them. So happiness is not peace, peace is not > happiness. > > > > The other type of peace is that which comes from > wisdom. Here we > > don't confuse peace with happiness; we know the > mind which > > contemplates and knows happiness and unhappiness > as peace. The > > peace which arises from wisdom is not happiness, > but is that which > > sees the truth of both happiness and unhappiness. > Clinging to those > > states does not arise, the mind rises above them. > This is the true > > goal of all Buddhist practice. > > > > (thanks to Greg Bester) > > 1154 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, kom wrote > "Yoniso manaskira > > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > not considered as > > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana."' And you replied "I have to disagree withe the second part since in > the book 'Summary > of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana > bhavana, page 519,.....' And you said or implied that yoniso arises only with satipatthana and ceratianly not with kusala citta unasscociated with panna. I wasn't sure about this. Since manisikara is one of the seven universals (sabbacittasadharana) that arises with every citta it is of the four jatis of akusala, kusala, vipaka and kiriya. We are taking about only the jati of kusala and for this reason I thought they might call any kusala manisikara - yoniso. I saw the folowing in the atthasalini (I Part ii chapter 1 63) taking about kusala " its proximate cause is wise attention" - asuming wise attention is yoniso manisikara (sorry no pali) this seems to support Kom's idea that all kusala maisikara is yoniso. Of course if this were true the yoniso manisikara of samattha, vipassana and kusal without panna would all be different but still possibly classified under yoniso. I have never given any of this much thought before - I may be completely wrong. Robert 1155 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:25pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Amara, > kom wrote > > "Yoniso manaskira > > > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > > not considered as > > > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana."' > > And you replied > "I have to disagree withe the second part since in > > the book 'Summary > > of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana > > bhavana, page 519,.....' And you said or implied > that yoniso arises only with satipatthana and > ceratianly not with kusala citta unasscociated with > panna. Dear Robert, I was quoting from her book, if you looked again, I said, I have to disagree withe the second part since in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana bhavana, page 519, Khun Sujin answered a question: Q: Supposing after paying respect to the Buddha and reciting the mantra, we think of doing kammatthana (meditation), how should one "yonisomanasikara" so that there is no abhijjha and domanassa in the arammana? A: For there to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati in the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position one is in. (End quote.) This is also in the website of course, advanced section, 'Summary' Part IX (Guidelines), in English and Thai. > I wasn't sure about this. Since manisikara is one of > the seven universals (sabbacittasadharana) that arises > with every citta it is of the four jatis of akusala, > kusala, vipaka and kiriya. We are taking about only > the jati of kusala and for this reason I thought they > might call any kusala manisikara - yoniso. I saw the > folowing in the atthasalini (I Part ii chapter 1 63) > taking about kusala "its proximate cause is wise > attention" - asuming wise attention is yoniso > manisikara (sorry no pali) this seems to support Kom's > idea that all kusala maisikara is yoniso. Of course if > this were true the yoniso manisikara of samattha, > vipassana and kusal without panna would all be > different but still possibly classified under yoniso. > I have never given any of this much thought before - I > may be completely wrong. > Robert Thanks for the analysis, it sounds like solid reasoning. Perhaps here she was talking about the person's wrong practice? I will ask her if you wish, Amara 1156 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- > > Robert > > Thanks for the analysis, it sounds like solid > reasoning. Perhaps > here she was talking about the person's wrong > practice? I will ask > her if you wish, > > Amara Dear amara, It is an extremely small point - howver since we have discussed it at length it would be good to get a final conclusion. Robert > > > > > 1157 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:28pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > It is an extremely small point - howver since we have > discussed it at length it would be good to get a final > conclusion. Dear Robert, Kom and friends, I'm very glad that Robert commented on this, and that Kom brought it up: I just asked Khun Sujin about this and she said that what Kom and Robert said about this was right, there can be only two kinds of manasikara, ayoniso and yoniso, and when the citta is kusala it is always yoniso. The quotation I posted was about a question about samatha bhavana, which was why she answered about samatha practice and miccha samadhi. I'm glad we didn't let that one pass, which shows how much we, especially I, still have to learn, Khun Sujin said herself that it is impossible for only one person to know all that is in the Tipitaka (although she herself has never been unable to answer any question of mine). Amara 1158 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:19am Subject: Re: Ajahn Chah --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > (Is there a mind?) Dear Robert and Friends, That reminds me of a question: On page 44 of 'Buddhism in Daily Life', Nina writes, "Samatha can purify the mind, but it cannot eradicate unwholesome latent tendencies." I do understand about the anusaya. But in her use (here) of 'mind', is she referring to citta? i.e., that samatha can condition the arising of (grossly) kusala citta, but without eradicating the present anusaya? Thanks in advance, mn 1159 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Chah Dear Mike, Yes. Well put. Robert --- Robert > Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > (Is there a mind?) > > Dear Robert and Friends, > > That reminds me of a question: On page 44 of > 'Buddhism in Daily > Life', Nina writes, "Samatha can purify the mind, > but it cannot > eradicate unwholesome latent tendencies." I do > understand about the > anusaya. But in her use (here) of 'mind', is she > referring to > citta? i.e., that samatha can condition the > arising of (grossly) > kusala citta, but without eradicating the present > anusaya? > > Thanks in advance, > > mn > > 1160 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 2:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for posting the original quote and thanks again for following up with A. Sujin on the question. You wouldn't know many times the bay area studying group ends up with a question like this and ends up at a loss of how to answer it. You are very fortunate to be so close to such a knowledgeable dhamma friend. kom --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > It is an extremely small point - howver since we have > > discussed it at length it would be good to get a final > > conclusion. > > > Dear Robert, Kom and friends, > > I'm very glad that Robert commented on this, and that Kom brought it > up: I just asked Khun Sujin about this and she said that what Kom > and Robert said about this was right, there can be only two kinds of > manasikara, ayoniso and yoniso, and when the citta is kusala it is > always yoniso. > > The quotation I posted was about a question about samatha bhavana, > which was why she answered about samatha practice and miccha > samadhi. > > I'm glad we didn't let that one pass, which shows how much we, > especially I, still have to learn, Khun Sujin said herself that it > is impossible for only one person to know all that is in the > Tipitaka (although she herself has never been unable to answer any > question of mine). > > Amara 1161 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 3:28am Subject: Re: Hello from Mary Dear Mary, I'm glad that Mike introduced you to this group. I'm new here, too. I'm looking forward to see you in the discussion. There's a lot to learn. Be sure to drop by www.dhammastudy.www, the excellent website maintained by Khun Amara. It has a lot of materials for us to learn right there. If you have any questions, please post them here so that others and ... I :-))) may benefit from them, too. With the metta from Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, Kom, O, Mike, Leonardo, Khun, Sujin, ... plus the answers from Khun Sujin, I'm sure that there will be no doubt left. Metta, Alex Tran ================================ --- "Mary Reinard" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging me to get on board > and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very informative and > well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not sure I'll have much > to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest will be pee-qued > just enough to push me out in the open. > > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. > > Much Metta, > Mary 1162 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 4:13am Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Thanks for posting the original quote and thanks again for following up > with A. Sujin on the question. You wouldn't know many times the bay > area studying group ends up with a question like this and ends up at a > loss of how to answer it. You are very fortunate to be so close to > such a knowledgeable dhamma friend. Dear Khun Kom and group, Please let me know if you have any more of this kind of questions, I would be more than happy to find out for you. Tan Achaan is never happier than when there are questions, as you know. When she is in town, she is always accessible, otherwise there are the English discussion groups where we can ask anything, since it is relatively small. We are indeed lucky to have such a kalayanamitta, so I hope you will allow me to forward your questions to her so that we can all learn from both them and her answers, Amara 1163 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 4:29am Subject: Re: Hello from Mary > I'm sure > that there will be no doubt left. Dear Alex, I'm glad you are a real optimist, you know that the person who has no more 'doubts' in the dhamma are the sotapanna? =^_^= (Personally I would prefer to translate vicikiccha as uncertainty though). Just kidding, =^_^= =^_^= Amara 1164 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 0:58pm Subject: Re: Hello from Mary --- "amara chay" wrote: > > I'm sure > > that there will be no doubt left. > > > Dear Alex, > > I'm glad you are a real optimist, you know that the person who has no > more 'doubts' in the dhamma are the sotapanna? =^_^= Dear Amara, How are you? The list is quiet tonight. So, here I am to stir up the peace. After the question answered clearly by Robert, Amara, Sarah, Jonothan, Kom, Mike, Leonardo, O, ... there will be no doubt left in the mind of the questioner for that question alone. He/She then may go to the next question because he/she is not a sotapanna yet! This process will continue until he/she reaches the level of a sotapanna. =^_^= By the way, I like this cute smiling face of yours. Is it copyrighted? And who knows, with the help from this dhammastudy group, one may attain sotapanna because once the conditions are fulfilled, it may happen at any time. >(Personally I > would prefer to translate vicikiccha as uncertainty though). Just > kidding, =^_^= =^_^= (a smiling face here) Just in case =^_^= is copyrighted by our dear Amara. > Amara AT 1165 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight Dear Alex, I was thinking the same thing - about the list been quiet. It has been a month to remember - so many excellent posts. Hard work for all of us; reading, considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition kusala citta? I have hardly had time to glance at a pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about paramattha dhammas. Say what you will about the internet - but it has its uses. Robert > Dear Amara, > > How are you? The list is quiet tonight. So, here > I am to stir up > the peace. > Alex 1166 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:46pm Subject: Re: Hello from Mary > > How are you? The list is quiet tonight. So, here I am to stir up > the peace. > =^_^= By the way, I like this cute smiling face of yours. Is it > copyrighted? > > And who knows, with the help from this dhammastudy group, one may > attain sotapanna because once the conditions are fulfilled, it may > happen at any time. > (a smiling face here) Just in case =^_^= is copyrighted by our > dear Amara. Hi! Busy translating an article (a little long, but very good) Khun Sujin wanted me to put on the web, but not and then taking a peek at the list! You'll like it, Alex though this one IS copywrited by the author and you need her permission to print it, unlike my smiling face which I learned thanks to one of the friends who taught me to use the computer. And opened www communication for me so that I've found new friends like you and the whole list, in fact! Amara 1167 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation --- protectID wrote: > I am sorry I have not been able to quote so precisely from the > sources, > as I am quite lacking in English materials. Is there a web site > publishing > the English version of the tipitikas? There is one in Thai... Kom I'm sure someone must have replied to your question, but in case they haven't here are the websites that I know of which publish English versions of the Tipitaka- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/index.html If anyone knows of others, feel free to post. Jonothan 1168 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 5:52pm Subject: Kamma (was: Accumulations) --- "m. nease" wrote: > > kamma is used in various senses. > > ...does help. Vipaka is too, I guess. I think I've > been taking these to be much more specific terms than > they rightly are. Mike On reading over my original answer I realise that it was less than clear. Please allow me to try again. Kamma is any wholesome or unwholesome deed that brings a result in the form of vipaka. Vipaka is the result of kamma and is experienced as pleasant or unpleasant object through the sense-doors. (This may seem somewhat circular, but please read on.) An example of kamma. If a person intentionally kills another being, that is akusala kamma. It will bring a result in the future in the form of unpleasant experiences through one or more of the sense-doors. An example of vipaka. When a person hears an unpleasant sound, that is vipaka, the result of some previous akusala kamma. (The same applies as regards pleasant/unpleasant visible object, bodily pain etc, the experiences through the 5 sense-doors.) Actually, every experience through a sense door is the result of past kamma (including this moment of seeing). This is the meaning of kamma and vipaka as expressed in conventional terms. But in terms of the moment to moment realities discussed in the abhidhamma, greater precision is possible. In abhidhamma terms, kamma is specifically the cetana cetasika that arises with the citta that performs the wholesome or unwholesome deed. Thus it is sankhara kkhanda. Vipaka is the citta that experiences the sense-door object at the moment of contact (eg the moment of seeing-consciousness etc – the dvi-panca-vinnana cittas). Thus it is vinnana kkhanda. So these are 2 senses in which the terms kamma and vipaka are used (the general and the abhidhamma senses). There is a third and broader/looser sense in which the terms are also often used. Everyone has committed kamma which has yet to bring its result. This accumulated store of kamma waiting to come to fruition is sometimes collectively referred to as a person's kamma. (Here we are referring to an accumulation which, as previously discusssed, is not regarded as a paramattha dhamma as such.) Also, everyone is born into different circumstances in life and achieves different things – different family circumstances, degrees of success in business, popularity etc. These things are dependent on past deeds, and are sometimes referred to as vipaka (or even by some as kamma!). But note that a person could have good fortune in all these respects but nonetheless have a lot of unpleasant sense-door experiences in their life eg pain from illness (akusala vipaka through the body), have to hear a lot of harsh and unpleasant speech; or vice versa for that matter. So although these things are conditioned by kamma they are not vipaka in the strict sense of the term. There is much more to this topic (eg there are other cittas in our lives apart from the dvi-panca-vinnana cittas that are vipaka cittas), but I hope this helps explain the different contexts in which the terms are found. Jonothan 1169 From: A T Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:00pm Subject: New article >From: "amara chay" >Hi! > >Busy translating an article (a little long, but very good) Khun >Sujin wanted me to put on the web, but not and then taking a peek at >the list! You'll like it, Alex though this one IS copywrited by the >author and you need her permission to print it, I know that I'll like it. Please include with the article how to get in touch with her. >unlike my smiling >face which I learned thanks to one of the friends who taught me to >use the computer. It means I can use the smiling face, too. =^_^= >And opened www communication for me so that I've >found new friends like you and the whole list, in fact! Robert just mentioned how good internet is. I agree. Without internet, I wouldn't be able to know how wonderful this group and its related websites. Thank you for your hard work. Alex 1170 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:47pm Subject: Re: New article > I know that I'll like it. Please include with the article how to get in > touch with her. Dear Alex, You don't mean you want to print it in book form! =^_^= Sorry I wasn't clear, you can print out anything from the website, of course, it's just that publication in book form needs to be granted case by case. Actually we're quite easy, so even copyright is mainly a formality for the records! Amara 1171 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 6:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Robert, Amara & Mike, I'm just looking in a copy of pali Lang Dict by Childers which suggests that s'times yonisomanisakara is used in a more general sense to mean 'philosophic attention or devotion of the mind' as in Dhammapada but in the Abhidhamma 'yoniso manisakara is given as a synonym of panna, vijja, nana etc.. Actually i wrote this before i saw KS's reply...so often it depends on the context..I u'stand it arises with all kusala cittas but may be used specifically to refer to panna. On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about the 4 kinds. Specifically I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, sapaya sampajanna..knowing what is suitable. I used to think in terms of 'situation' such as a quiet place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise reflection etc or that given my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke bars are definitely not conducive for the development of any kusala on my part! However, now I realize that what is suitable is referring to the present realities...but...? Perhaps Amara or Robert or anyone else might like to give me some insight! We can hardly say that visible object is suitable if it appears now and there is study of its characteristic! Perhaps Amara & Betty can test their memories and u'standing by filling us in on the recent discussions with K.Sujin! Thanks, Sarah as in > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > > Dear Amara, > > kom wrote > > > "Yoniso manaskira > > > > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > > > not considered as > > > > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana."' > > > > And you replied > > "I have to disagree withe the second part since in > > > the book 'Summary > > > of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana > > > bhavana, page 519,.....' And you said or implied > > that yoniso arises only with satipatthana and > > ceratianly not with kusala citta unasscociated with > > panna. > > >Dear Robert, > >I was quoting from her book, if you looked again, I said, > >I have to disagree withe the second part since in the book 'Summary >of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana bhavana, page 519, >Khun Sujin answered a question: > >Q: Supposing after paying respect to the Buddha and reciting the >mantra, we think of doing kammatthana (meditation), how should one >"yonisomanasikara" so that there is no abhijjha and domanassa in the >arammana? > >A: For there to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati >in >the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore >one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because >one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on >schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying >respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does >not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the >realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are >paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does >not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one >would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and >experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is >performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position >one is in. >(End quote.) > >This is also in the website of course, >advanced section, 'Summary' Part IX (Guidelines), in English and Thai. > > > > I wasn't sure about this. Since manisikara is one of > > the seven universals (sabbacittasadharana) that arises > > with every citta it is of the four jatis of akusala, > > kusala, vipaka and kiriya. We are taking about only > > the jati of kusala and for this reason I thought they > > might call any kusala manisikara - yoniso. I saw the > > folowing in the atthasalini (I Part ii chapter 1 63) > > taking about kusala "its proximate cause is wise > > attention" - asuming wise attention is yoniso > > manisikara (sorry no pali) this seems to support Kom's > > idea that all kusala maisikara is yoniso. Of course if > > this were true the yoniso manisikara of samattha, > > vipassana and kusal without panna would all be > > different but still possibly classified under yoniso. > > I have never given any of this much thought before - I > > may be completely wrong. > > Robert > >Thanks for the analysis, it sounds like solid reasoning. Perhaps >here she was talking about the person's wrong practice? I will ask >her if you wish, > >Amara > 1172 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 6:31am Subject: Nina Van Gorkom's letters Dear Amara, Pinna and Alan, the latest from Nina VG on her letters (just came in while i was sending the last message!): "I sorted out all (my) letters, two were beyond copying, (it was) a lot of work. I (will bring all (the) copies to Thailand, but where is Pinna living now? I do appreciate her offer very much. She has such a good judgement, everything is in the best hands. She can also revise if she likes, I have no time. Survey (of Paramatha Dhammas) is a lot of work. I gave Amara Alan's booklets, where he printed some letters (Perfections, Holland Letters etc). Now I would like to know whether Amara can use these, or do I still have to copy those articles also? There are also my revised Vipassana Letters on Alan's (website). My feeling is that she has enough. I am not sure she needs all those letters. I cannot contact her by fax. Thailand is very difficult! Robert sent me some of your group's discussions. Very useful, how nice so many people and groups are reached...." Pinna, you may like to contact Nina directly to follow up...let me know if you need her fax no (off list perhaps). My own feeling is that it would be good to have ALL Nina's writings, inc. all her old letters, in print form on either Amara's or Alan's websites, so that anyone can have access. Amara & Alan, I think you need to liaise together about this (off list, perhaps). Regards, Sarah Robert, thanks for sending discussion messages to Nina. I did so at the very beginning, but it's gone from strength to strength since then! 1173 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 11:04pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Actually i wrote this before i saw KS's reply...so often it depends on the > context..I u'stand it arises with all kusala cittas but may be used > specifically to refer to panna. Dear Sarah, Actually manasikara and panna are two different cetasika but since all kusala citta are accompanied by yoniso manasikara, panna and nana and all the jhana and maggacitta would be accompanied by different degrees of this cetasika, I think. > On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about the 4 kinds. Specifically > I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, sapaya sampajanna..knowing > what is suitable. I used to think in terms of 'situation' such as a quiet > place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise reflection etc or that given > my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke bars are definitely not > conducive for the development of any kusala on my part! However, now I > realize that what is suitable is referring to the present > realities...but...? I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations and level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the streets. The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where he was. The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his level also. The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern streets? But now that I think about it, how would one know if it hasn't happened? That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied, therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right understanding. Does this make any sense? Amara By the way the word sapaya is the origin of the word sabaii in Thai, which means comfortable, at ease, happy. (and the slang for 'that's easy!') 1174 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 11:18pm Subject: Re: Nina Van Gorkom's letters My feeling is that she has enough. I am not sure she > needs all those letters. I cannot contact her by fax. Thailand is very > difficult! Dear Sarah, I would rather she be the judge about this, we would be very happy to have more of her works in DS, but we can all read them on Alan's site very well, there is also a convenient link from DS to his. Perhaps when Alan puts something new in his site he could also announce it in DS, so we could all find it, just a note here on the list will be fine, I will add it to the update page on DS also. I still wish Nina were on line so she could help us on this list too, Amara 1175 From: A T Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Dear Alex, >I was thinking the same thing - about the list been >quiet. It has been a month to remember - so many >excellent posts. Hard work for all of us; reading, >considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition >kusala citta? Dear Robert, It has been a lot of studying for me too. It's wonderful. >I have hardly had time to glance at a >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about >paramattha dhammas. =^_^= I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet. The conditions are not yet there. =^_^= Seriously, I think that you are a wonderful dhamma teacher. Thank you for your knowledge and your sharing spirit. >Say what you will about the >internet - but it has its uses. Yes, I agree. Last Friday, I thought the same thing, too. Have a good weekend. Metta, Alex Tran 1176 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (was: Accumulations) --- protectID wrote: > I hope this helps explain the different > contexts in > which the terms are found. Definitely, thanks again. Mainly, for the present, I think I need to study up on cetasika. My reading is piling up and I'm still at the beginning. A long way to go yet (and I'm enjoying it immensely). Anumodana, mn 1177 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke --- > > On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about > the 4 kinds. Specifically > I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, > sapaya sampajanna..knowing > what is suitable. I used to think in terms of > 'situation' such as a quiet > place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise > reflection etc or that given > my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke > bars are definitely not > conducive for the development of any kusala on my > part! However, now I > realize that what is suitable is referring to the > present > realities...but Dear sarah, A very, very, useful question. How we understand this will have real bearing on our daily life and practice. In fact the second type of sampajanna may well, at times, be of the sort of thinking that says "No, a karaoke is not suitable for me -I would be better staying home and reading a Dhamma book". When I wrote about how satipatthana can arise in a karaoke this was referring to the 4th type of sampajanna- that of amoha, non-delusion. This is the type of sampajanna that specificially applies to satipatthana and can arise anywhere. However, we misunderstand (and ignore the other types) if we think this means "great I can live a life of hedonism and debauchery - it doesn't matter because sati can arise at any time". The middle path is deep - we have to examine so many aspects of Dhamma. I think it is a good topic for further discussion. Robert 1178 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Leonardo, > >Dear Sarah, > >Sorry for my late comments ... I'm also slow, very slow....anyone can pick up any point from even the earliest archives, it doesn't matter....we can't all be as quick as Robert, Alex & Amara! > > In my mail answering Robert`s remarks, I`ve posted: > > "I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of >what sila >means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give >us some >better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be >ever better >then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon >our strong >unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept >or >practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is >panna itself >isn`t it ? > I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the >real sila is >conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our >big ego - >this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing >annata". > I didn`t understand Bhikkhu Bodhi`s emphasis in first >undertaking sila >and then go ahead on panna for every people. Otherwise, for a great number >of people >it would be like this. Only to keep the precepts as external is somehow >silly, but >this stage should be undertaken because for people without grasping the >more profound >Dhamma it is a Dhamma 'practice' in itself. There should be a very initial >mundane >panna to keep the precepts - even for someone who practices them out of >fear to >rebirth in an unfortunate realm ! > We have to bear in mind that perhaps Bodhi`s articles don`t >address to >Roberts, Sarahs, Jonothans, Amaras, Alexs :-) ... but for a different kind >of people. >You have to use different approach to comunicate to people with different >degree of >understanding. Some teachers say that understanding paramattha dhammas is fine for a few but for most they need some other way, some other method first, then they can begin the understanding. This sounds like saying if route A seems pretty difficult, start along route B and hope you'll fin yourself on route A later. We would say, if route A is the right route, start on route A from the beginning, no matter how difficult and slow it is. The path has to start with right understanding. This doesn't mean don't encourage oneself and others to give, to show metta, to obstain from breaking precepts, even to read a dhamma book instead of going off to karoke for the night! The point is though,that firstly without real understanding and confidence in kusala, how well will we and others follow the advice and secondly, what are the cittas while seeming to follow the advice? If you'll excuse a diversion, when I first knew Khun Sujin, her sister used to regularly visit with food and other presents (lots of generosity), but she'd swat mosquitoes whenever she noticed them. I'd try to encourage her to abstain from this habit to little avail. She really couldn't see the harm in it even though she knew that as a Buddhist she shouldn't do this. Later she started listening to her sister teach dhamma and on one visit told me that she was no longer killing insects and they'd stopped bothering her so much. Someone else might 'naturally' abstain from killing but not be generous at all. By 'naturally' I mean needing little instruction and doing what comes easily to one (in this case kusala). When we first went on the internet, it wasn't 'natural' for us to read a lot of dhamma here and now it is! I also don't agree that by practising generosity or abstaining regularly from killing, for example, we willlose our 'self identity'. It's true that at any moment of kusala, there is no clinging to self and at these moments we have the other's welfare at heart. it's good and to be encouraged. However, the wrong view of self and self identity is so deep-rooted and tenacious that only right understanding of realites has any effect on reducing its tencacity. I totally agree with you that very few of us are able (even for a few moments!) to appreciate the value of the abhidhamma and particularly the truth about anatta. I also agree that it's very useful to encourage everyone to have more kusala at any level. Other religions also encourage dana and sila as we know. We have to learn what is appropriate for our audience. With the children I teach, I often teach them to share and be considerate. I seldom mention realities! > > You`ve wrote: > > > He suggests the level of understanding will be limited > > by the level of sila established too. > > For me these two are very much connected. Perhaps here the >word >'understand' has different meanings for us - Sila, as I see, is connected >with the >word 'wise' and not necessarily with the word 'understand'. We can >understand >theoretically many teachings but what is really a wise person ? - Please, >here I'm >not trying to say that we should meditate more than study ! > > Sarah and friends, what is a wise person ? What caracterize >the four >stages of sainthood ? > > Bhikkhu Bodhi is stressing the real value of sila in >cleansing the >'house'. Why would he did that ? (english is correct ?) I think it fits >with a >particular kind of people from west, usually with a great amount of >aversion on the >religious aspects. It seems to someone that Buddhism is best considered a >mental >science, a philosophy and NOT a religion. Because of our conditional view >of religion >with dogmas and obligations, we tend "only to meditate, to study and put in >the >garbage all these silly exterior religious matter - let it for the use of >the less >inteligent people". Sarah, unfortunately this was the way I' ve begun my >'Dhamma >practice' . So, BB's articles are very compassionate in the way they try to >shed >light in this important matter. > A wise person has to be one who has developed wisdom or panna and the stages of sainthood are the higher stages of highly developed panna. These people may be very 'unwise' in a conventional sense and their wisdom may not be recognised or appreciated at all. Leonardo, I may not fully understand all your comments. With this great emphasis on developing understanding, I don't mean to suggest, don't follow other skillful actions. Like Robert said, knowing sati can arise in a karaoke bar, doesn't mean going there is good! It depends on one's accumulations. If one lives in Sri lanka and is inclined on Full Moon day to dress in white, go to the temple and follow the 8 precepts for a day, I'd encourage it. It may be (but not necessarily so) a condition for a lot of wise reflection. In the same way, I'd always encourage a child or friend to abstain from breaking the other precepts as they arise in daily life. Without any considering and developing of understanding of realities, it won't however directly lead to more right understanding of the eightfold path arising in the future. It can be support condition though. I think there will be some 'choices' - not personal >choices, in ultimate sense.There is 'choices' to study the Dhamma, >'choices' to >participate in this wonderful list, 'choices' to practice the precepts, >etc.. Perhaps >the word zeal (chanda) is more technical to express what I want to mean. >Chanda is >not the same as lobha as we can read in chapter 12 - NVG's - Cetacikas: > > " ... Whenever we perform kusala, the kusala citta is >accompained by >chanda wich is zeal for kusala, wich desires to act in the wholesome >way..... If >there were no wholesome zeal, ' wish to act', we could not perform such >acts of mettă >and karuna ... > It seems like we have choices, but do we really? We may decide to abstain from swatting the mosquito and then swat it anyway. Of course there can be chanda, there can be kusala cetana (good intention) and many other useful cetasikas (mental factors). These arise for a moment only and are then (usually) followed by many not so useful ones. So, yes, let's learn to distinguish them better, understand them more as I can see you're doing with your studies and appreciate the value of those moments of abstaining from harm or the moments of sense door restraint Robert has been talking about. They're very precious and can arise whenever there are opportunities to do harm (kill, lie etc) or in terms of the sense restraint whenever we open our eyes, hear or experience objects through the other doorways. > But Sarah I also can see what you are trying to teach me - >there is >dangers also ... So, if we continue, we can read in the same chapter: > > "...How do we know when chanda is kusala or akusala ? For >instance, when >we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment ? We have >accumulated a >great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often >attchment than >kusala chanda. We are attached to a concept of sati [as if these words were >Robert`s >! ] and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is >different >the moment sati arises [ great ! ] ... When sati arises it is accompanied >by kusala >chanda wich performs its functions .... good reminders! > > > What do you mean with 'naturally' ? Every situation is due to >conditions. What were the conditions to they can have good accumulations of >sila ? > > > However if there is no understanding and a teacher they > > respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may >change > > this good behaviour. > > This is the case where there are a silly student and a also a >deluded >teacher ... I think it can be more subtle...give this way and not that, give to the monks but not to the beggars....sometimes there many be wrong understanding of metta taught for example... > > > 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for >the > > wholesome tendencies to grow. > > I think we are stressing the same point. There is only a mature >sila when >understanding is present. But for me, there isn`t a wise man only if there >is >understanding without sila, both internal and external as Bhikkhu Bodhi >stresses. The more understanding develops, the more sila will develop for sure, the more the ugliness of all kinds of kusala will become apparent and the danger of not developing more understanding and other kinds of kusala. I might stress here that for the most part I agree with BB's excellent writings and really appreciate his wonderful translation work. I believe it's healthy to question the content of whatever anyone writes and this is one of the functions of this list that is working very well! I'm planning to send a note to BB soon to invite him or any of his students or colleagues to join or 'drop in' here. He joined some of the seminars with Khun Sujin in Sri Lanka and we all appreciate any discussions with him. He will not be expecting us to agree with everything he writes! > > Sometimes, the outer behavior conditions the inner one, >particularly in >the very start of the path - like as we were as educated children in our >first yoars >in school. good point...but more as condition for the same tendency. Before the Buddha's time there was lots of development of sila, dana, samatha but still no conditions for the development of vipassana without hearing the Buddha's teachings. (see Robert's more recent post) > > Sarah, for me sila is very much concerned with its volitional >aspect. In >thinking in this direction, I guess I'm focusing on the many moments of >sila and >non-sila, the former is more frequent than the second, but both of them are >anatta >and anicca. So it shows that you're developing your understanding or I should say it's developing itself.... as a result of reading, considering and hearing about realities rather than just from your many good acts of generosity I suspect! > > > > Yes, but who knows they didn`t have sila accumulations in the >past. I >guess if someone is fortunate enough to share an existence with a Buddha, >there will >be a extremely strong wholesome accumulations on his/her past - both sila >and >understanding accumulations ! > o.k. but when you're arguing for the sila as foundation 1st, aren't you saying that sila has to be developed in this life before understanding can develop or are you now saying, well as long as it was developed in a previous life, never mind if it's pretty wobbly now?! > But not because only a sotapanna can keep rightly the precepts, ' >we' >wouldn't try to make some effort in the right direction. Understanding the >necessity >of practising sila is also Right View and it drives our usual deluded and >poluted >mind to a right course of action - both internal (volitional) and external >(acting in >the world). If we will wait until we become a sotapanna do practice sila, i >guess it >will never come to life. Sila, as I understand, is a condition for >sotapanna >attainment. Am I wrong here ? > well, actually it's not a question of keeping the precepts now or of waiting til we become a sotapanna... firstly, as we know, there's no self to direct the views and intentions and timing of sila secondly, the more we hear and consider the value of the precepts, the dangers and ugly nature of the akusala cittas and cetanas when they are not kept, the more inclined are we to be reminded and to abstain from killing, stealing etc without some special effort. In other words, understanding knows more about the realities, understands the difference between kusala and akusala moments and is bent on developing more wholesomeoness of all lkinds in our lives. thirdly, iw we do swat the mosquito or tell a lie, what should we do? The answer is that understanding can know it's anatta...there are bound to be many, many moments of akusala cetana in a day and as Alex reminded us in an earlier post, regret is so useless... understanding and the development of kusala have to develop very slowly. Everyone has different accumulations and 'weaknesses'....some of us may be distracted by the pretty girls (!), others like me, by speaking harshly at times etc etc...We don't need to change anything and in fact WE can't....just develop understanding slowly and patiently! > > See again Bodhi's differentiation on internal x external >behavior and its >implicit relation with correct understanding. Thank you, yes. I no longer have the article in front of me, but will look at this part again. I also liked Robert's recent post about the monk that looks so calm and clean and pleasant but who may be developing lots of lobha. I also remember (sorry, forget the name) the arahat who was scorned because of the way he walks...we really only know for ourselves what the citta is (and seldom only!) > >Thank you very much Sarah, > > Ps: This wonderful group is certainly 'my ticket' to somehow one >day I could >"know and see" > >Metta, >Leonardo > Leonardo, I must say you and the other 'new recruits' are a real joy to correspond with and a condition for a lot of useful reflection on my part....I hope I don't sound like i know all the answers, because i certainly don't. Mike made a comment about having been lost or off track for a long time and now finding some good sign posts. I've had good sign posts for many, many years but have still managed to spend plenty of time wandering around getting lost, getting burnt by the midday sun, forgetting the important ingredients for the picnic, leaving the compass at home, being bitten by all the insects around. The tendencies for lobha, dosa, moha and wrong view are so strong that it's not easy, even with the best sign posts... Yr w'end will be starting as ours finishes...hope it's a good one with lots of wise reflection! Sorry, this is so long..hope there's something useful. At least Alex won't be bored tonight! Sarah> > 1180 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 0:57pm Subject: Maggha citta Dear Friends, We (the bay area studying group) had a discussion today about a Thai Dhamma book (Manual for Studying Abhidhamma, Parichet I, Citta Poramattha), and we came up with a question that wasn't quite satisfactorily answered, so I am wondering if anyone could clarify. The book mentioned that Maggha Citta (not with Jhana citta) may arise with either Somanassa Vedana or Upecha Vedana, corresponding directly to the vedana arising with the maha-kusala citta that precedes it. For example, if maha-kusala citta preceding it arises with Somanassa, the Maggha citta also arises with Somanassa. The book then proceeds to say that even when the Maggha citta can be classified as either as being ajhana, or jhana. If it is classified as jhana, then it is in the same category as the meggha citta following the first rupa jhana citta. However, the Maggha citta that follows the first rupa jhana citta will certainly have Somanassa vedana and piti as jhana factors, whereas Maggha citta following the maha-kusala citta with Upecha will have Upecha as vedana, and will have no piti as a factor. How do you reconcile these two seemingly inconsistent statements? kom 1181 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 2:22pm Subject: Accumulations-continued Dear Friends, This is another question resulting from studying the book mentioned in the previous message, Manual for Studying Abhidhamma. The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot "normally" be detected by anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???). We know that Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated. Now, this begs the question, how and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated? Since Anusaya kilesa is not detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own characteristics? Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of Accumulations (kamma accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.) As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong), all the accumulations are carried on in citta. All the cittas and cetasikas in the past all contribute to the characteristic of the citta in the present. As Khun Amara has mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are alike because of the different accumulations. In fact, the cittas of the same being are in fact different from one moment to another as the previous citta conditions the next citta and one of the condition is to pass along all the accumulations (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are different from one moment to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas perspectivies). Yet this accumulation is not detectable even by satipatthana: it may have its own characteristic, but is too refined to be detected. However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any moment, although all the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along with a citta, they "are there" in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the conditions are ripe, and passing on the accumulations to the next citta. This is the first time I have heard of this explanation, and am in need of further explanations, and pointers to the text sources related to this area. Although I understand roughly about what gets accumulated, 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does the accumulation, 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause (and what are the characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cuase) 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such accumulation. kom 1182 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, Actually when I first read your post about sattipathana in a karaoke, I thought to myself about duality being present only in the mind, and that there was infact only 'one boat' and 'one rower'.And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in a meditation retreat, I thought,"and now what?"After realizing this, perhaps now it would be easier to have sati in a meditation retreat. For a moment it looked like that there was a tendency to put the 'meditation retreat' and the act of 'formal sitting' into 'forbidden territory', but that did not happen. It was only an attempt to show some of us that paramathadhamma was the only 'worthy' object of consideration, and since this is present everywhere in every thing, it would be missing the point to look for it in any particular place. It is better to visit the karaoke with sammaditthi(more or less)than to sit down to meditate with wrong view. But as I wrote to you earlier, I am open to both, 'formal sitting' as well as 'consideration of paramatthadhammas', I do not see it as being opposed to one another,I am not putting one foot in one boat, and the other in another.There is only one boat and one rower. In following the path of buddhadhamma, there are moments in which one may consider the nama & rupa of that moment, but at other times I think many of us are satisfied with following 'unconsidered' cettasikas and yet feel at the end of the day, that we are on the 'right track'.And all this is in fact only very little compared the larger part of our day,(at least for me) when more gross manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate karaoke bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa causes this body to move away before it can come into contact with objects which would have aroused lobha). My view of the sapaya sampajanna hence, is like the act of walking the tight-rope: Fall off, get on again. Either end of the balancing pole swaying in big arcs, gradually getting smaller and smaller with practise, and even then, may fall again.Or because long time no practice, may need to start from the basic. Is anything in my control? No. Is there any point in making any special effort in doing, or going to a place to create conditions which my desperate state envisage? I don't think so. What is sapaya then, I often feel very fortunate to have found this group and to have met Acharn Sujin, but even this is fleeting. Any benifit I gain from this group is not entirely up to me. Am I clear? I don't know. Expressing myself anyway. Anumodana, Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > --- > > > On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about > > the 4 kinds. Specifically > > I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, > > sapaya sampajanna..knowing > > what is suitable. I used to think in terms of > > 'situation' such as a quiet > > place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise > > reflection etc or that given > > my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke > > bars are definitely not > > conducive for the development of any kusala on my > > part! However, now I > > realize that what is suitable is referring to the > > present > > realities...but > > Dear sarah, > A very, very, useful question. How we understand this > will have real bearing on our daily life and practice. > In fact the second type of sampajanna may well, at > times, be of the sort of thinking that says "No, a > karaoke is not suitable for me -I would be better > staying home and reading a Dhamma book". When I wrote > about how satipatthana can arise in a karaoke this was > referring to the 4th type of sampajanna- that of > amoha, non-delusion. This is the type of sampajanna > that specificially applies to satipatthana and can > arise anywhere. > However, we misunderstand (and ignore the other types) > if we think this means "great I can live a life of > hedonism and debauchery - it doesn't matter because > sati can arise at any time". The middle path is deep - > we have to examine so many aspects of Dhamma. > I think it is a good topic for further discussion. > Robert > 1183 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 6:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin, What is "formal sitting"? how do you do it? what do you observe? what happens? Robert It was only an > attempt to show > some of us that paramathadhamma was the only > 'worthy' object > of consideration, and since this is present > everywhere in every thing, > it would be missing the point to look for it in any > particular place. > It is better to visit the karaoke with > sammaditthi(more or less)than > to sit down to meditate with wrong view. > But as I wrote to you earlier, I am open to both, > 'formal sitting' as > well as 'consideration of paramatthadhammas', I do > not see it as > being opposed to one another,I am not putting one > foot in one boat, > and the other in another.There is only one boat and > one rower. 1184 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Jonathan, Thank you for reminding me of that question again. Having been away on holiday in France, I was not able to ask Achaan that question. But will do so this Saturday and let you know the answer via the group. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu > Betty > > Have you had a chance to follow-up on this question? I would be interestd > to hear more. Does the answer have to do with nibbana being experienced > only as the object of citta, whereas other namas can appear as object of > citta or can themselves be the citta/cetasika that experiences an object? > > Jonothan > > > > > though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, it does not > > > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned realities, arising during it. > > > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises at/after (?) attaining > >Nibbana. > > > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me next week. For, how can > >panna > > > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if panna IS a conditioned > >cetasika? > > 1185 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, First I want to point out that, since I joined this group my sitting schedule has been more relaxed, meaning I don't force myself to do it as much as I used to. It has become more an activity I undertake not only because it calms me down but also because at that time I have nothing better to do. However since I do it anyway in opposition to any other possible act, it still is a deliberate action. And also what I do while I sit is watch the vedana, or the breath or get lost(which happens most of the time), but I also note, if it happens, the paramatthadhammas. The major view I do not hold on to with regard to the activity, is that 'it will get me somewhere' in the distant future. But the "I" still persists with a change of objective you might say. To this I must admit that this to me is an easier way to have some calm than consideration of paramatthadhammas, eventhough on a couple of occasions there have been more calm by means of consideration of realities. Yet I speak as though it were an integral part of my dhamma practice, to this I'll have to say that my knowledge of abhidhamma and its application is not strong enough to overturn the practical effect that 'meditation' practise has had on me so far. Besides, the intellect may be convinced, but do I need to listen to any other aspect of my being? Please clear up my muddled self some more. Thanks in advance. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Sukin, > What is "formal sitting"? how do you do it? what do > you observe? what happens? > Robert > It was only an > > attempt to show > > some of us that paramathadhamma was the only > > 'worthy' object > > of consideration, and since this is present > > everywhere in every thing, > > it would be missing the point to look for it in any > > particular place. > > It is better to visit the karaoke with > > sammaditthi(more or less)than > > to sit down to meditate with wrong view. > > But as I wrote to you earlier, I am open to both, > > 'formal sitting' as > > well as 'consideration of paramatthadhammas', I do > > not see it as > > being opposed to one another,I am not putting one > > foot in one boat, > > and the other in another.There is only one boat and > > one rower. > 1186 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Yes, what I realise is that even tho' this thick Childers pali dict. which we seem to have inherited from Dhammadharo is probably the most extensive pali-Eng dict, still the content will depend on the abhid knowledge of the authors....it doesn't make sense, as you say, to talk about panna and yoniso manis being used interchangeably in the abhid when the abhid is so precise....I've learnt a lesson here! thanks, S.> > >Dear Sarah, > >Actually manasikara and panna are two different cetasika but since >all kusala citta are accompanied by yoniso manasikara, panna and >nana and all the jhana and maggacitta would be accompanied by >different degrees of this cetasika, I think. > 1187 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:34pm Subject: Re: Maggha citta Dear Kom, I just got off the phone with Tan Achaan, I had faxed her your question and you might have found some complicated stuff here since she said it's a long story and since my mother is having lunch with her on Wednesday, she would explain it then. I'll get back to you then, please be patient, Amara 1188 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina Van Gorkom's letters Dear Amara & Alan, Anyway, we can talk to Nina in Bkk...It's good she's happy for Pinna to revise & help (SLOWLY, Pinna!). We can also encourage her to go 'on line' then....but she's very busy with her books I know... I think it's great that you can put the letters on yr site and don't see 'too many' as an issue! Alan, a comment pls! Sarah > > >Dear Sarah, > >I would rather she be the judge about this, we would be very happy >to have more of her works in DS, but we can all read them on Alan's >site very well, there is also a convenient link from DS to his. >Perhaps when Alan puts something new in his site he could also >announce it in DS, so we could all find it, just a note here on the >list will be fine, I will add it to the update page on DS also. > >I still wish Nina were on line so she could help us on this list >too, > >Amara > 1189 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Sarah, Leonardo, and friends, >Everyone has different accumulations and >'weaknesses'....some of us may be distracted by the pretty girls (!), At least this distraction has some sense of beauty in it. :-))) >others >like me, by speaking harshly at times etc etc... This is my weak point, too. I think that by studying Dhamma seriously, when dosa starting to show up, I could see that the conditions of dosa are there. Therefore, it somehow gets reduced to a much less degree. >I also liked Robert's recent post about the monk that >looks so calm and clean and pleasant but who may be developing lots of >lobha. This post of Robert surprises me very much at first. I could see well some crooks pretend to be good, but with someone walking on the Path! What Robert said makes a lot of sense. >I also remember (sorry, forget the name) the arahat who was scorned >because of the way he walks... Was he Sariputta? He had the habit of jumping across the water because in one of his previous life time, he had been born as a monkey. >we really only know for ourselves what the >citta is (and seldom only!) How true! > > Ps: This wonderful group is certainly 'my ticket' to somehow >one > >day I could > >"know and see" I agree with you, Leonardo. Thank you for being here. I've learned a lot in the last few weeks. >Sorry, this is so long..hope there's something useful. >At least Alex won't be bored tonight! Dear Sarah, thank you for thinking of me. Recently, with so much of learning from this group, I realize that I have to study the books, and Abhidhamma carefully, so that I can understand what we're discussing about in the list. If only we have more than 24 hours per day! Thank you, Sarah, for a good post. Metta, AT 1190 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 9:49pm Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued > The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot "normally" be detected > by > anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???). We know that > Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated. Now, this begs the question, how > and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated? Dear Khun Kom, Let us go back to the fact that all dhamma in the world or outside it would have to be one of the four paramatthadhamma, namely citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Rupa and nibbana aside, the 'intelligence or the dhatu that knows and experiences' in other words the nama, can be classified as citta or cetasika. The citta is the principle faculty of experience, from the most minute details in human sight to the deepest thoughts, from mixed aromas to the tiniest vibrations. The cetasika do all the other functions: like or dislike, remember, study. Citta and cetasika must always arise together, inseparably. The citta is a constant, its characteristic of all experiencing is the same no matter the kind of cetasika accompanies it, which is why, when one studies the ayatana it is considered the inner one, and the cetasika the outer. But in most places although both elements are without shape and form of any kind, the cetasika is refered to as 'born in the citta', which is to say again it never arises with anything else, ever. If it were to have some sort of shape, however, one might think of a big pot with the 52 cetasika like 'sediment' at the bottom until some condition makes some rise up in a bubble, big or small, when the pot boils or cools. Say we have gas pellets of different kinds and colors and they react differently to just water, cold or hot, others that react to heat, and still others that react to the cold , so different sets will combine to make different bubbles. Some of the 52 cetasika that accompanies the citta will accompany all citta, some cannot arise together in the same citta, because they are opposed (lobha and dosa for example) always when it is hot or cold some will remain inactive since they only react to one or the other, never to both. Whatever rises to the surface can be detected, while the rest lie 'dormant' until the conditions are right for them to rise too. (This is my very own invention and my responsibility if anyone gets even more confused- but the word 'sediment' in the quotation about the anusaya kilesa gave me the idea.) My point is that the citta holds the 'seeds' of all 52 cetasika and when there are conditions, certain sets would arise and do their duty while others settle like 'sediment' at the bottom, and when the citta falls away and conditions the next citta to arise, with all the accumulations of the past, in the different combinations as well as the strengths and weaknesses of the cetasika passed on. Of course not all cetasika are anusaya or even kilesa, some are just operational, such as passa or jivitindriya and arise with all citta, even when all kilesa has been eradicated, as in the arahanta. For example as we said elsewhere for the vipaka and its condition, the computer is composed of 1 and 0 in eight positions, and the possibility of these two numbers in only eight positions yeilds over 10 million posibilities. Just think of the possible combinations of the 52 cetasika in at least 7 positions, each with different strength (since the 7 annasamana arise for all). Indeed we might say that the citta is the most powerful computer in the world, nothing is ever lost, they just wait their turn when the right conditions come. The only exception of course is when panna is strong enough to end it all. If you understood what I tried to explain, could you please try to answer your own questions below? >Since Anusaya kilesa is not > detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own characteristics? > Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of Accumulations > (kamma > accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.) > > As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong), all the > accumulations are > carried on in citta. All the cittas and cetasikas in the past all > contribute to > the characteristic of the citta in the present. As Khun Amara has > mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are alike because of the > different accumulations. In fact, the cittas of the same being are > in fact > different from one moment to another as the previous citta conditions > the > next citta and one of the condition is to pass along all the > accumulations > (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are different from one > moment > to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas perspectivies). Yet > this > accumulation is not detectable even by satipatthana: it may have its > own > characteristic, but is too refined to be detected. > > However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any moment, although > all > the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along with a citta, they > "are there" > in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the conditions are ripe, > and > passing on the accumulations to the next citta. This is the first > time I > have heard of this explanation, and am in need of further > explanations, > and pointers to the text sources related to this area. > > Although I understand roughly about what gets accumulated, > 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does the accumulation, > 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic, function, > manifestation, > and proximate cause (and what are the characteristic, function, > manifestation, and proximate cuase) > 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such accumulation. > > kom 1191 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 10:12pm Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued Dear Khun Kom and friends, My usual corrigenda- sorry to have confused you even further, in the last post I said >Just think of the possible combinations of the 52 cetasika in at >least 7 positions, each with different strength (since the 7 >annasamana arise for all). when it should have been the 7 sappacittasataranacetasika of the 13 annasamana, Then the akusala citta would have the 13 + the akusalas And the kusala 13+???? (how many, Shin, do you remember?) Any way I am sure Khun Kom has no problems with the precise numbers! Amara 1192 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 10:22pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Yes, what I realise is that even tho' this thick Childers pali dict. which > we seem to have inherited from Dhammadharo is probably the most extensive > pali-Eng dict, still the content will depend on the abhid knowledge of the > authors....it doesn't make sense, as you say, to talk about panna and yoniso > manis being used interchangeably in the abhid when the abhid is so > precise....I've learnt a lesson here! > thanks, S.> Dear Sarah, That's what Khun Sujin has been saying all along, about translations in the traditional way, some may have perfect knowledge of the language and some the dhamma, but there are few like Khun Sujin so I think we should alway try to make the most we can of her teachings! Amara 1193 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 10:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin, >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in >a meditation retreat, I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can rise anywhere since it's uncontrollable. Therefore, I went to archive to check what I said. What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer Robert's question: >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance >of sila. >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana >arise in a karaoke? > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? >see you tommorow >Robert > My answer: With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is very strong at that moment. With Metta, Alex 1194 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear sukin, I find as the years go by that the sort of dilemmas you bring up seem not so bothersome to me (I don't mean as questions, I mean personally) as they once were. In fact whole days do go past, even weeks, where little panna or sati or reflection arises. I don’t mind this; I think because Dhamma seems so inseparable from life that even periods without kusala teach me something. Something about accumulations and anattaness and akusala. This is hard to explain. Do you still think that 'we' are on the path or trying to find it? Do you think 'we' will live for a short time or long time and then die? Samasara vata -(called the round of birth and deaths) is deeper than that. The real samsara is concealed by avijja (ignorance). The paticcasamupada is only khandas arising and passing away - it is simply dukkha- but we can't see it because avijja always darts among things that are not real such as people, cars, money, and can't penetrate things that are real such as colour, sound, citta, cetasika. When we die it will all carry on just like now. Each moment, right now, is a new life - every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional death happens it will be just like this. Without even a split second gap the new life will occur and the same processes- vitthi cittas and so on will occur. This arising and passing of khandas has been going on since ....no beginning. Can we expect to quickly stop it or even to understand how to stop it? Patience is needed and patience develops by understanding this moment; that there is only this moment, that it is only paramattha dhamma, no self.Then samasara loses some of its sting because very slowly an inkling of what it is all about grows- and with that comes sadda, confidence. Namas and rupas are gone even before we think about them. What, truly, is there to cling to? It is only because we don't see that we try to hold on. It often happens that when people learn about anatta and Abhidhamma they feel that it is so right but then not so long after a dilemma sets in. "If everything is anatta what can be done?" Before, they had practices such as watching the breath or concentrating on subtle rupas in the body. They walked, perhaps, slowly with great concentration, or tried to always stay in the present moment. Now, they wonder, if understanding is not some technique, just what should I do? When I first met Sujin I thought I would continue to meditate; and at the same time develop understanding of paramattha dhammas in daily life; and also study. I thought this three-pronged approach, taking the best of everything, had to be the way. You could try this: in fact I think you are trying this. What happened with me is the more that I saw dhammas in everyday life the less I could see the point of sitting in one spot not moving with my eyes closed. I found out that that by and large there were other things I preferred to do and could better be doing; such as considering the Dhamma. Until recently, when I got busy with a career, I used to go off for a few days by myself and stay at a hut in the forest. But I would take some Dhamma books (usually something by NinaVG and an abhidhamma book) and contemplate them. Sometimes I guess I hardly moved for hours just considering dhamma – in the book and as they appear directly. Then I would walk in the forest for hours with the thought of Dhamma uppermost. But I wasn’t thinking of this as formal meditation – it just happened. The posture, time etc was not really considered; simply what was most convenient and comfortable. Life now seems to unfold in its own way. Sometimes career is uppermost in my mind; sometimes family; sometimes Dhamma; sometimes akusala; sometimes kusala. I think it must be like this for us all. When we try to resist nature, even in refined ways, we move away from the present moment. We all want to have a happy life; but if we do not understand Dhamma we do things that lead away from happiness. The first javanna citta in every mind-door process can give its results in this life. The others, except for the seventh, can give results in future lives even 100,000aeons from now (or more). I used to worry about making decisions; should I do this or do that, what will give the best advantage; and this whether to do with daily life or things to do with “my” Dhamma practice. I find I hardly worry about making decisions about almost anything now. Deep-down I know happiness only comes from kusala citta (past and present) and whether things go right or wrong is not dependent much on “my” decisions. Nonetheless maybe in the future this will change and I will worry more- defilements run deep- who knows what will come. . You wrote "this is in fact only very little compared the larger part of our day,(at least for me) when more gross manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate karaoke bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa causes this body to move away before it can come into contact with objects which would have aroused lobha)". Do you think “gross manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha” are worse than refined ones? I don’t. The strong ones taught me a lot and still do. They show me what I really am – a skinbag full of defilements. Moreover when they arise it is actually the latent tendencies showing themselves – they are not us, they are dhammas. Lobha is lobha whether in the Brahma realm or the animal world. Khun Sujin asked me last time I was in Bangkok that: if a Brahma god (who is in a different bhumi (plane) from us has lobha is the lobha of the kama loka (the bhumi we and animals etc are in) or the Brahma loka. It is simply lobha and it is of the kama loka – the same bhumi as us. I used to feel nervous (very) when flying but fear helped me learn about the characteristic of sati. We have fear because of clinging to self. Sati and sampajanna, of satipatthana, see dhammas as merely dhammas. How can there be fear with such understanding. When moments of sati come in between the moments of fear, or anger or lobha much can be learnt. It is like you said ” on a couple of occasions there have been more calm by means of consideration of realities.” . It is more than simply study Abhidhamma, listen to khun sujin, understand anatta and everything will be OK. I think some do have the idea that that is all it takes. However this path does need effort, lots of it; but effort so profound that only wisdom really knows what it is. All we can learn from others is the details of the Tipitika and then by discussion with the right people we can see some of our attachments to wrong view, to self, to wrong practice. Beyond that I think only panna that arises dependent on hearing, considering, direct study of dhammas, and past accumulations can distinguish what the way is. Don't take my word for it though - please comment more- if you or anyone can explain other ways I will certainly consider them. You wrote ".Or because long time no practice, may need to start from the basic." We need to start from the basic at every moment. Check to see whether you have desire to understand? can you see that desire will hinder understanding? Chanda is not desire and right effort is not desire but if desire is present there cannot be panna at the same time. You wrote "Is anything in my control? No. Is there any point in making any special effort in doing, or going to a place to create conditions which my desperate state envisage? I don't think so. What is sapaya then, I often feel very fortunate to have found this group and to have met Acharn Sujin, but even this is fleeting. Any benifit I gain from this group is not entirely up to me. Am I clear? I don't know. Expressing myself anyway." This is the way it has to go Sukin, for all of us. Sometimes confidence is strong, at other times not. Sometimes it feels like we have confidence but it is just attachment; at other times we feel like there is no progress but in refined ways understanding is growing. It is good to have doubts actually because these can spur us to understand more. It can be dangerous if we think we have it all sorted out. We can't so often have satipatthana - conditions don't work like that. Sometimes we need other aspects- I like to read the jatakas for example. Once the bodhisatta wanted to give to a paccekka-buddha . Mara wanted to hinder the giving so he opened up the earth down to avicci hell. The flames and stench came up between the PaccekkaBuddha and the bodhisatta. His wife and servants jumped back in fear and horror but the bodhisatta had such sadda, confidence, that he walked straight across the chasm. At that moment from out of the depths a lotus plant shot up and supported him so that he was able to give food to the paccekkabuddha. This was in the time when no teaching of anatta, of satipatthana, was available and yet he had such confidence in kusala. I asked someone in Bangkok if they would be happy to be confused and worried for twenty years if after that time they managed to have a little understanding. They said "no". This is the wrong answer. We have to be ready to walk across a world of sharp spears if that's what it takes to get to the bottom of it all. Every prick can teach something if is investigated in light of Dhamma. (Note: I am encouraging myself here) Robert 1195 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:09am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Alex, Sorry for the misunderstanding, it happens with me a lot. Metta, Sukin. --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented > >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in > >a meditation retreat, > > I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can rise > anywhere since it's uncontrollable. Therefore, I went to archive to check > what I said. What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer Robert's > question: > > >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a > >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) > >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance > >of sila. > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana > >arise in a karaoke? > > > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give > >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? > >see you tommorow > >Robert > > > > My answer: > > With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a > karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is > very strong at that moment. > > With Metta, > Alex > > 1196 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin and Alex, I think it might have been Kom who was making the point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place such as a meditation center one might have wrong practice whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual" significance might not catch us in this same subtle way. On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I would repost this: A final point: none of what we have been saying about this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke (or worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or someone who lives life fully endowed with the five strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can develop in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find that karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest after sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I mean, not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a rather simple life (no details).But the only reply she gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that is "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can tell us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but by developing understanding our own unique accumulations are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself what is suitable (for us) and what is not. There was a joke on another list that made me laugh: The reporter asks the very successful businessman “how did you do it?” Businessman: two words: right decisions. Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions? Businessman: One word: experience. Reporter: how did you get experience? Businessman: two words: wrong decisions. Robert 1197 From: protectID=Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:29am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke --- "Sukinder Narula" wrote: > Dear Alex, > Sorry for the misunderstanding, it happens with me a lot. > Metta, > > Sukin. Dear Sukin, It's fine. I've done it many times, too. Thank you for the post. Like you, I get less and less formal when meditating. Metta, Alex 1198 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:36am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Sukin and Alex, > I think it might have been Kom who was making the > point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place such > as a meditation center one might have wrong practice > whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual" > significance might not catch us in this same subtle > way. > > On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I > would repost this: > A final point: none of what we have been saying about > this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke (or > worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our > own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead > one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or > someone who lives life fully endowed with the five > strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can develop > in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find that > karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest after > sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, > or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I mean, > not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a > rather simple life (no details).But the only reply she > gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that is > "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can tell > us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but by > developing understanding our own unique accumulations > are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself > what is suitable (for us) and what is not. > > There was a joke on another list that made me laugh: > The reporter asks the very successful businessman "how > did you do it?" > Businessman: two words: right decisions. > Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions? > Businessman: One word: experience. > Reporter: how did you get experience? > Businessman: two words: wrong decisions. > Robert Dear Robert, I like the joke, too. I think that Khun Sujin is very wise. "Don't copy!". Thank you for reposting the above part. Metta, AT 1199 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:46am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, Thanks for so patiently explaining to me in much detail how and where I could be stuck. Actually I am up at this time only because while lying in bed I thought I found the answer to my own statement in the last post, namely; "Besides, the intellect may be convinced,but do I need to listen to any other aspect of my being?" I thought "what is this 'other aspect of my being?'" I've got only this six sense doors,the workings of which is probably explained in the abhidhamma.The whole world is known through these sense doors.How else can I know the world? Am I right Robert? Thanks very much for showing me this; > We need to start from the basic at every moment. Check > to see whether you have desire to understand? can you > see that desire will hinder understanding? Chanda is > not desire and right effort is not desire but if > desire is present there cannot be panna at the same > time. And this; > Sometimes confidence is strong, at other times not. > Sometimes it feels like we have confidence but it is > just attachment; at other times we feel like there is > no progress but in refined ways understanding is > growing. It is good to have doubts actually because > these can spur us to understand more. It can be > dangerous if we think we have it all sorted out. And this, eventhough lobha would say otherwise; > I asked someone in Bangkok if they would be happy to > be confused and worried for twenty years if after that > time they managed to have a little understanding. They > said "no". This is the wrong answer. We have to be > ready to walk across a world of sharp spears if that's > what it takes to get to the bottom of it all. Every > prick can teach something if is investigated in light > of Dhamma. (Note: I am encouraging myself here) > Robert Thanks for everything again.I hope your patience manifests everytime I open my mouth.One thing I do see is that this bag of kilesa is ready to spill out anytime. Sukin. 1200 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations-continued Dear Amara, So: The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or conditioned (in the same sense that the citta are)--they become active dependent on the accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this right? Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something obvious. This is all pretty new to me, and it helps if I can simplify it a little. I liked the citta/computer analogy. There's also something in it that reminds me of genetics, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Thanks, C, for your excellent questions, Amara, for your excellent answer. mn --- amara chay wrote: > > > > The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot > "normally" be detected > > by > > anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???). We > know that > > Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated. Now, this > begs the question, > how > > and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated? > > > Dear Khun Kom, > > Let us go back to the fact that all dhamma in the > world or outside > it would have to be one of the four > paramatthadhamma, namely citta, > cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Rupa and nibbana aside, > the > 'intelligence or the dhatu that knows and > experiences' in other > words the nama, can be classified as citta or > cetasika. > > The citta is the principle faculty of experience, > from the most > minute details in human sight to the deepest > thoughts, from mixed > aromas to the tiniest vibrations. The cetasika do > all the other > functions: like or dislike, remember, study. Citta > and cetasika > must always arise together, inseparably. The citta > is a constant, > its characteristic of all experiencing is the same > no matter the > kind of cetasika accompanies it, which is why, when > one studies the > ayatana it is considered the inner one, and the > cetasika the outer. > But in most places although both elements are > without shape and form > of any kind, the cetasika is refered to as 'born in > the citta', > which is to say again it never arises with anything > else, ever. > > If it were to have some sort of shape, however, one > might think of a > big pot with the 52 cetasika like 'sediment' at the > bottom until > some condition makes some rise up in a bubble, big > or small, when > the pot boils or cools. Say we have gas pellets of > different kinds > and colors and they react differently to just water, > cold or hot, > others that react to heat, and still others that > react to the cold , > so different sets will combine to make different > bubbles. Some of > the 52 cetasika that accompanies the citta will > accompany all citta, > some cannot arise together in the same citta, > because they are > opposed (lobha and dosa for example) always when it > is hot or cold > some will remain inactive since they only react to > one or the other, > never to both. Whatever rises to the surface can be > detected, while > the rest lie 'dormant' until the conditions are > right for them to > rise too. (This is my very own invention and my > responsibility if > anyone gets even more confused- but the word > 'sediment' in the > quotation about the anusaya kilesa gave me the > idea.) > > My point is that the citta holds the 'seeds' of all > 52 cetasika and > when there are conditions, certain sets would arise > and do their duty > while others settle like 'sediment' at the bottom, > and when the citta > falls away and conditions the next citta to arise, > with all the > accumulations of the past, in the different > combinations as well as > the strengths and weaknesses of the cetasika passed > on. Of course > not all cetasika are anusaya or even kilesa, some > are just > operational, such as passa or jivitindriya and arise > with all citta, > even when all kilesa has been eradicated, as in the > arahanta. > > For example as we said elsewhere for the vipaka and > its condition, > the computer is composed of 1 and 0 in eight > positions, and the > possibility of these two numbers in only eight > positions yeilds over > 10 million posibilities. Just think of the possible > combinations of > the 52 cetasika in at least 7 positions, each with > different strength > (since the 7 annasamana arise for all). Indeed we > might say that > the citta is the most powerful computer in the > world, nothing is ever > lost, they just wait their turn when the right > conditions come. The > only exception of course is when panna is strong > enough to end it all. > > If you understood what I tried to explain, could you > please try to > answer your own questions below? > > > > > >Since Anusaya kilesa is not > > detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own > characteristics? > > Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of > Accumulations > > (kamma > > accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.) > > > > As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong), > all the > > accumulations are > > carried on in citta. All the cittas and cetasikas > in the past all > > contribute to > > the characteristic of the citta in the present. > As Khun Amara has > > mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are > alike because of > the > > different accumulations. In fact, the cittas of > the same being are > > in fact > > different from one moment to another as the > previous citta > conditions > > the > > next citta and one of the condition is to pass > along all the > > accumulations > > (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are > different from one > > moment > > to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas > perspectivies). Yet > > this > > accumulation is not detectable even by > satipatthana: it may have its > > own > > characteristic, but is too refined to be detected. > > > > However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any > moment, although > > all > > the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along > with a citta, they > > "are there" > > in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the > conditions are ripe, > > and > > passing on the accumulations to the next citta. > This is the first > > time I > > have heard of this explanation, and am in need of > further > > explanations, > > and pointers to the text sources related to this > area. > > > > Although I understand roughly about what gets > accumulated, > > 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does > the accumulation, > > 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic, > function, > > manifestation, > > and proximate cause (and what are the > characteristic, function, > > manifestation, and proximate cuase) > > 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such > accumulation. > > > > kom > > === message truncated === 1201 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:07am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin and Alex, Alex, I think you might have got the 'credit' for my not-terribly skilful reply, > ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer. Because in the > sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe... Your answer was much better! Thanks to you all for your patience. mn --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented > >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in > >a meditation retreat, > > I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can rise > anywhere since it's uncontrollable. Therefore, I went to archive to check > what I said. What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer Robert's > question: > > >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a > >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) > >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance > >of sila. > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana > >arise in a karaoke? > > > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give > >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? > >see you tommorow > >Robert > > > > My answer: > > With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a > karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is > very strong at that moment. > > With Metta, > Alex 1202 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Thanks, Robert, Your posts remain both instructive and inspiring. Very. mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sukin, > I find as the years go by that the sort of dilemmas > you bring up seem not so bothersome to me (I don't > mean as questions, I mean personally) as they once > were. In fact whole days do go past, even weeks, > where > little panna or sati or reflection arises. I don’t > mind this; I think because Dhamma seems so > inseparable > from life that even periods without kusala teach me > something. Something about accumulations and > anattaness and akusala. This is hard to explain. > > Do you still think that 'we' are on the path or > trying > to find it? Do you think 'we' will live for a short > time or long time and then die? Samasara vata > -(called > the round of birth and deaths) is deeper than that. > The real samsara is concealed by avijja (ignorance). > The paticcasamupada is only khandas arising and > passing away - it is simply dukkha- but we can't see > it because avijja always darts among things that are > not real such as people, cars, money, and can't > penetrate things that are real such as colour, > sound, > citta, cetasika. When we die it will all carry on > just > like now. Each moment, right now, is a new life - > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional > death happens it will be just like this. Without > even > a split second gap the new life will occur and the > same processes- vitthi cittas and so on will occur. > This arising and passing of khandas has been going > on > since ....no beginning. > Can we expect to quickly stop it or even to > understand how to stop it? Patience is needed and > patience develops by understanding this moment; that > there is only this moment, that it is only > paramattha > dhamma, no self.Then samasara loses some of its > sting > because very slowly an inkling of what it is all > about > grows- and with that comes sadda, confidence. > Namas and rupas are gone even before we think about > them. What, truly, is there to cling to? It is only > because we don't see that we try to hold on. > > It often happens that when people learn about anatta > and Abhidhamma they feel that it is so right but > then > not so long after a dilemma sets in. "If everything > is > anatta what can be done?" Before, they had practices > such as watching the breath or concentrating on > subtle > rupas in the body. They walked, perhaps, slowly with > great concentration, or tried to always stay in the > present moment. Now, they wonder, if understanding > is > not some technique, just what should I do? > When I first met Sujin I thought I would continue to > meditate; and at the same time develop understanding > of paramattha dhammas in daily life; and also study. > I > thought this three-pronged approach, taking the best > of everything, had to be the way. You could try > this: > in fact I think you are trying this. What happened > with me is the more that I saw dhammas in everyday > life the less I could see the point of sitting in > one > spot not moving with my eyes closed. I found out > that > that by and large there were other things I > preferred > to do and could better be doing; such as considering > the Dhamma. > Until recently, when I got busy with a career, I > used > to go off for a few days by myself and stay at a hut > in the forest. But I would take some Dhamma books > (usually something by NinaVG and an abhidhamma book) > and contemplate them. Sometimes I guess I hardly > moved > for hours just considering dhamma – in the book and > as > they appear directly. Then I would walk in the > forest > for hours with the thought of Dhamma uppermost. But > I > wasn’t thinking of this as formal meditation – it > just > happened. The posture, time etc was not really > considered; simply what was most convenient and > comfortable. > Life now seems to unfold in its own way. Sometimes > career is uppermost in my mind; sometimes family; > sometimes Dhamma; sometimes akusala; sometimes > kusala. > I think it must be like this for us all. When we try > to resist nature, even in refined ways, we move > away > from the present moment. > We all want to have a happy life; but if we do not > understand Dhamma we do things that lead away from > happiness. The first javanna citta in every > mind-door > process can give its results in this life. The > others, > except for the seventh, can give results in future > lives even 100,000aeons from now (or more). I used > to > worry about making decisions; should I do this or do > that, what will give the best advantage; and this > whether to do with daily life or things to do with > “my” Dhamma practice. I find I hardly worry about > making decisions about almost anything now. > Deep-down > I know happiness only comes from kusala citta (past > and present) and whether things go right or wrong is > not dependent much on “my” decisions. Nonetheless > maybe in the future this will change and I will > worry > more- defilements run deep- who knows what will > come. > . > > You wrote "this is in fact only very little > compared the larger part of our day,(at least for > me) > when more gross > manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate > karaoke > bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa > causes this > body to move away before it can come into contact > with > objects > which would have aroused lobha)". > > Do you think “gross manifestations of lobha, dosa > and > moha” are worse than refined ones? I don’t. The > strong ones taught me a lot and still do. They show > me > what I really am – a skinbag full of defilements. > Moreover when they arise it is actually the latent > tendencies showing themselves – they are not us, > they > are dhammas. Lobha is lobha whether in the Brahma > realm or the animal world. Khun Sujin asked me last > time I was in Bangkok that: if a Brahma god (who is > in > a different bhumi (plane) from us has lobha is the > lobha of the kama loka (the bhumi we and animals etc > are in) or the Brahma loka. It is simply lobha and > it > is of the kama loka – the same bhumi as us. > I used to feel nervous (very) when flying but fear > helped me learn about the characteristic of sati. We > have fear because of clinging to self. Sati and > sampajanna, of satipatthana, see dhammas as merely > dhammas. How can there be fear with such > understanding. When moments of sati come in between > the moments of fear, or anger or lobha much can be > learnt. It is like you said > ” on a couple of occasions there have been more > calm by means of consideration of realities.” > . > It is more than simply study Abhidhamma, listen to > khun sujin, understand anatta and everything will be > OK. I think some do have the idea that that is all > it > takes. However this path does need effort, lots of > it; > but effort so profound that only wisdom really knows > what it is. > All we can learn from others is the details of the > Tipitika and then by discussion with the right > people > we can see some of our attachments to wrong view, to > self, to wrong practice. Beyond that I think only > panna that arises dependent on hearing, considering, > direct study of dhammas, and past accumulations can > distinguish what the way is. Don't take my word for > it > though - please comment more- if you or anyone can > explain other ways I will certainly consider them. > > You wrote > ".Or because long time no practice, may > need to start from the basic." > > We need to start from the basic at every moment. > Check > to see whether you have desire to understand? can > you > === message truncated === 1203 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Friends, That reminds me of another joke that reminded me of how I have to look at 'taking in' wise counsel: A skeleton walks into a bar, and says, "Gimme a beer. And a mop." mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Sukin and Alex, > I think it might have been Kom who was making the > point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place > such > as a meditation center one might have wrong practice > whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual" > significance might not catch us in this same subtle > way. > > On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I > would repost this: > A final point: none of what we have been saying > about > this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke > (or > worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our > own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead > one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or > someone who lives life fully endowed with the five > strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can > develop > in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find > that > karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest > after > sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, > or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I > mean, > not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a > rather simple life (no details).But the only reply > she > gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that > is > "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can > tell > us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but > by > developing understanding our own unique > accumulations > are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself > what is suitable (for us) and what is not. > > There was a joke on another list that made me laugh: > The reporter asks the very successful businessman > “how > did you do it?” > Businessman: two words: right decisions. > Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions? > Businessman: One word: experience. > Reporter: how did you get experience? > Businessman: two words: wrong decisions. > Robert > > 1204 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight wrote: > Hard work for all of us; reading, > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition > kusala citta? It sure does--I THINK. Lately, I've become a little suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around reflections on dhamma. Despite these reservations, however, I've been walking around smiling like an idiot ever since I found this group. And, whether these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle akusala, I thank you all for them just the same! mn 1205 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear Robert, Thanks for the thoughtful reply! Sorry for the lateness of this response. wrote: > You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding > of > paticusamupada into the actual experience. Exactly--though on a very coarse level, I know. > Nothing > wrong with that - we can see this to some extent. > However, remember that sati does not have to take > feeling as an object. It could have taken > rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment. > At > the moment of seeing there always only neutral > feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises > later. Thanks--I didn't know that. > You said "arises after feeling before desire" > (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise before > the > nivarana of sense desire arises ") but in reality > it is happening so fast that any idea of time > sequence > is just an idea, a concept based on what we have > heard. Understood. > We can understand someting of this process > but > it may be counterproductive if we try to force the > the theory into the actual moments. Actually, trying to match the memory of experience with the theory (retropsectively). If paticcasamuppada doesn't operate on this (coarse) level or in this way, definitely counterproductive. > Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be > paraphrased, > 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact > between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa), > pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact, > desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant > feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling, > clinging (identification with desire) arises > dependent > on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I > desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the > contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of > paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right?" > It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty > woman- only colors ). Right--shouldn't it just be, 'only light'? > Just for those who might think > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't > think > this mm!) we should understand that these processes > are being repeated billions of times a second. I do. But had/have an idea that they also occur on a more observable scale--no? > How > much we really see of it all (directly) depends on > the > level of panna that has acumulated. Yes--or rather, 'how much understanding arises depends on the accumulations?' > Still the more we learn about the theory of > paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation > into it in daily life- and that can't be bad. > Robert > (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha) At this address, it's still 'being done' with lobha. I hope that it's moving in the direction of 'being done' without it... Thanks again, mn 1206 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin, --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > I thought I > found > the answer to my own statement in the last post, > namely; > "Besides, the intellect may be convinced,but do I > need > to listen to any other aspect of my being?" > I thought "what is this 'other aspect of my being?'" > I've got only this six sense doors,the workings of > which > is probably explained in the abhidhamma.The whole > world > is known through these sense doors.How else can I > know > the world? Yes, indeed. It is so hard because it is always "self" trying to understand "self". That is why the first step (a long, long step) is to remove the idea of self. Robert 1207 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > But until our panna is well developed, any > attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable to > our own situation will surely result in the kind of > wrong practice that you so well describe here and in > your comments on Kom’s posting. > > If and when panna is well developed, it arises and > performs its function (in this case, seeing the > danger > in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course, > without > having to be called upon to do so. So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the difference? Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and 'the real deal'? > So that brings us back to developing understanding > of > the reality of the present moment, regardless of the > uwholesome (and unpleasant) states we may be > experiencing. Understood... > On the other point you mentioned, the citta arising > with panna is of course a kusala citta and so there > can be no akusala whatsoever at that particular > moment. Thanks again, Jonothan... mn 1208 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > As you will have realised by now, Amara is a living > encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to > match Yes! As well as I'm able to realize it... > (you’d be surprised how many abhidhamma > scholars > there are who lack that quality!). Not at all! That's exactly what has kept me away from abhidhamma for all these years--until finding this list. > We are very > fortunate to have her on the list, and to have > access > to the materials on her website. Very fortunate, to say the least. I would go as far as to say that this list, because of Amara and so many others of you, is about the most fortunate thing that's ever happened to me--except, I suppose, hearing of the buddhadhamma in the first place... Thanks again, Saadhu! mn 1209 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'. Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'. Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'? Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of a vague understanding and seeming logical inference? Sukin. PS: I liked your; > Each moment, right now, is a new life - > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional > death happens it will be just like this. 'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks. 1210 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:29pm Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued > So: The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or > conditioned (in the same sense that the citta > are)--they become active dependent on the > accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this > right? Dear Mike, Some of the cetasika function at all times, to use a medical analogy, like your heart and lungs. Other organs may have periods of rest, but the moment these two stop altogether it is the end of that lifetime. The sappa citta satarana cetasika (cetasika common to all citta) and the citta is even more continuously arising and falling away, through samsara, until panna is able to stop them forever. The cutti citta or the citta that performs the function of passing on to the next life passes on all the accumulations to the next citta or the patisandhi citta (birth citta) which is a vipaka citta since at that time it is the result of some former kamma, no new ones are possible yet. But all the accumulations of endless lifetimes that has not resulted yet or has not finished yeilding results and that are ready to do so will function to determine from the color of your hair to the shape of your toenails (you're right, it is reminiscent of genes or even DNA) to whether you will live an eternity (like the Brahma) or the lifespan of a fruitfly. Or whether you will hear the dhamma or not (think of the Buddha's teachers Aralatapas and Utakatapas!) in that lifetime. One of the 'sappa' is cetana cetasika (intention or volition) which is the main cause of accumulations. It functions at different levels of strength, much like the kilesa, for example when it arises with vipaka (which arises to receive the result of past kamma), it is imperceptible, just helping the citta to experience the vipaka arising. It does not accumulate anything further. Its characteristics show when there is intention to do something and the attempt to do it. An extreme example is when Devadata tried to assasinate the Buddha and the monstruosity of the cetana was such that even though the Buddha had no accumulations to die that way, the vipaka of the cetana was immediate and resulted in his death and sufferings in hell right then. Khun sujin says that whatever you intend for other people is accumulated for you yourself in your own citta, whether the other people had the accumulation to suffer from your intentions or not. This is indeed feeding the gass pellets in enormous quantities. In between there are the normal daily accumulation, usually lobha, such as liking a pretty flower (or girls?), you may not even want it but it is like a pianist who practices, you could get better or remain the same, depending. But it is also impossible to live without lobha (except for the arahanta, and then they no longer come back to be), can you give up your eyes and ears now, never to read or hear about even the dhamma again? It is also one of the reasons for your smile, although the other reasons for it, for example piti in learning the truth, could lead you to another sort of smile, unique to the arahanta! Have fun figuring it all out, anumodana, Amara > Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something > obvious. This is all pretty new to me, and it helps > if I can simplify it a little. Just a note: oversimplifiaction could lead to misconception later on so please take your time, after all the Buddha spent 45 years teaching it so the least we can do is to consider it carefully, we are lucky to have any access to it at all these days! 1211 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:42pm Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear friends, I remember Khun Sujin remarking that one sure way of spoiling someone and making them so inflated they burst completely is praising them! Amara 1212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin, No musts or shoulds, I think. No rules. Sit until you want to sit no more. Understanding and awareness can come while sitting quietly. Have you looked at the Meghiya sutta- it might be relevant here. Nina van gorkom's book 'world in the buddhist sense" gives a profound examination of wrong practice- available from amazon.uk. I thought some more about sadda, confidence and how it waxes and wanes. It has to be this way because only the sotapanna has eradicated doubt forever. We are not enlightened yet. We still have doubt, from time to time, about the Dhamma, doubt about the path, about our progress, about our abilities and accumulations. Doubt won't throw us so much if we have investigated its patterns and currents. Doubt conditions anxiety because we resist it. We want(lobha) to be sure about our understanding; but lobha can never show us the path. The way out is to understand these moments too, as they arise; then they help us by becoming objects for awareness. We can ride out the waves of doubt and confusion with understanding. And if we can't that is dhamma too. Doubt arises because it has to be arise. And wide knowledge of the texts is invaluable. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'. > Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my > feet > in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I > may be > actually hindering the possibility of understanding. > The > activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'. > Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong > view'? > Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for > panna > to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis > of > a vague understanding and seeming logical inference? > > Sukin. > PS: I liked your; > > > Each moment, right now, is a new life - > > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional > > death happens it will be just like this. > > 'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is > relatively easy > to view everything else in terms of 'convetional > reality' as > opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death > is so much > taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. > Thanks. > > 1213 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 5:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada > > > It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty > > woman- only colors ). > > Right--shouldn't it just be, 'only light'? Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing consciousness) to arise. These are the cakkhupasasada (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention or contact (I forget which) and light. Some people wonder about this because we are used to scientific explanations that classify colour as part of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the eight inseparable rupas that make up even the tiniest atom. It is a complex subject even in the fundamental terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks about visible object because this is just what appears to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or light or whatever. It is useful to know details of this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller had a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he may have some useful observations. > > > Just for those who might think > > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't > > think > > this mm!) we should understand that these > processes > > are being repeated billions of times a second. > > I do. But had/have an idea that they also occur on > a > more observable scale--no? Yes they do. But when we see it on this scale it is still a type of thinking. I call it "considering in the present moment" - many levels of this too. It can be very helpful but it is only at the moments of vipassana nana, the more advanced ones, that actual direct understanding of paticcasmupada is gained. > > > > Robert 1214 From: Joe Cummings Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:14pm Subject: pali question Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the meantime the heaps have experienced several other teachers and approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real duration). Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just want to get the right one. The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one example I could use. Thanks very much. metta, Joe 1215 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question Dear Joe, Welcome to the group! We are expecially glad to have someone who studied with Khun Sujin in the past. Your pali questions are way beyond me but I found your reasoning sound (if it is right I don't know). . > I'm guessing > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, > meaning worldly > goals/concerns). . paramattha is carefully defined in the ancient commentaries and it means ultimate or fundamental. I guess Amara might have some ideas on this. It is often compared with pannati, concept and samutti, conventional. Only citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. Robert > > The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a > discussion with > an editor about the proper translation of > Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The > modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation > of Siddhartha > is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his > goal'. However I > think a better translation might be one that makes > it clear that > attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than > spiritual, goals (such > as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). > The latter > interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' > alleged wishes > for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context > of the times in > with Siddhartha was born, when artha or > wealth/property was > considered one of the four main human objectives > mandated by the > Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim > that attha/artha > specifically refers to material or worldly issues, > but my editor, who > is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, > would like to see > another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if > paramattha is one > example I could use. > > Thanks very much. > > metta, Joe > > > > > > 1216 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:02pm Subject: Re: pali question > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology > of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, > but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly > goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just > want to get the right one. Hi! Parama means great, supreme, thorough, and attha, as you know may mean several things: the meaning, the essence, the goal, as you said, so in fact paramatthadhamma means the ultimate essence of the truth, in other words 'absolute reality', as we say in our classes. I would suspect that the use of the word attha here would be different from the use in the name Siddhattha because here attha is obviously the goal, and the name would be more or less one who attains his goal, as your editor says, without necessarily specifying whether it is material or not. Not that I'm Pali knowledgeable or anything, I just have a friend who is! I rather think I agree with your editor, because when the brahmins predicted his future at his birth, they all said he would rule the world (or something to that effect) either in the worldly or the religious sense, except for the last branmin who specified uniquely the religious. In this light I think his parents would have named him auspiciously to succeed in either of his goals, no matter which he happened to choose. But that is my personal opinion which in no way reflect that of this group, hope it was of some use, Amara > The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with > an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The > modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha > is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I > think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that > attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such > as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter > interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes > for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in > with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was > considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the > Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha > specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who > is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see > another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one > example I could use. 1217 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations-continued --- amara chay wrote: > Just a note: oversimplifiaction could lead to > misconception later on > so please take your time, after all the Buddha spent > 45 years > teaching it so the least we can do is to consider it > carefully, we > are lucky to have any access to it at all these > days! Amara, thanks for the excellent and detailed clarifications and corrections. And your caution is well taken. An old habit I'd do well to break. I will have fun figuring it all out--thank you again for all the help. Anumodana, mn 1218 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing > consciousness) to arise. These are the > cakkhupasasada > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention > or contact (I forget which) and light. > Some people wonder about this because we are used to > scientific explanations that classify colour as part > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > tiniest > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > fundamental > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks > about visible object because this is just what > appears > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or > light or whatever. It is useful to know details of > this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller > had > a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he > may have some useful observations. Interesting--much, much more homework... > > > Just for those who might think > > > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't > > > think > > > this mm!) we should understand that these > > > processes > > > are being repeated billions of times a second. > > > > I do. But had/have an idea that they also occur > > on > > a > > more observable scale--no? > Yes they do. But when we see it on this scale it is > still a type of thinking. I call it "considering in > the present moment" - many levels of this too. It > can > be very helpful but it is only at the moments of > vipassana nana, the more advanced ones, that actual > direct understanding of paticcasmupada is gained. Understood--thanks again. mn 1219 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:20am Subject: to be or not to be a monk? Dear Alex, I know you were just kidding and we all need a bit of ribbing but actually there is a good point behind it which I'm prompted to raise. What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to meditate more? Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without having to worry about livelihood issues? Should it be because we will realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle with few possessions? Of course there are any number of reasons why someone may become a monk (or nun). It's important to be honest about the motive. With the development of right understanding, we begin to learn that understanding can develop in daily life and we don't have to cut ourselves off or avoid our unwholesome tendencies in order to know more about the realities appearing. Furthermore the understanding doesn't depend on how much free time we have to study or how calm we are. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there is that the lifestyle at the present moment is just fine and conditioned already and knowing the realities is all that matters. It's not the outer appearance or situation that counts. So what should the reason for becoming a monk be? Khun Sujin has said to me more than once that the ONLY reason to become a monk should be that this is what comes naturally for one. That one is following one's natural accumulations and doing what comes easily. This means it's easy for one to give up home, possessions, city life, family too. It doesn't mean one will develop more understanding. We have to be honest with ourselves and this is why perhaps Alex's ribbing is useful! Sarah > >I have hardly had time to glance at a > >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about > >paramattha dhammas. > > =^_^= I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet. The conditions >are not yet there. =^_^= > 1221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:32am Subject: Sapaya Sampajanna Dear Amara, yes, it's interesting....in the beginning one thinks of sapaya in terms os 'situation', then as understanding grows it begins to know that when we think in terms of suitable situation it can be an aspect of clinging to self. >I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations >and level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a >bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some >reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and >he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the >streets. The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and >the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him >and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where >he was. The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his >level also. The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of >thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern >streets? But now that I think about it, how would one know if it >hasn't happened? like you write below, in the end with more understanding any visible object or reality anywhere can be sapaya if conditions are right! That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't >have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied, >therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right >understanding. > >Does this make any sense? yes, it's a bit of a riddle depending on the understanding at the time. If it comes down to the visible object being sapaya, then how is it different to the 4th sampajanna at that moment?! > >Amara > >By the way the word sapaya is the origin of the word sabaii in Thai, >which means comfortable, at ease, happy. (and the slang for 'that's >easy!') This is interesting, I hadn't make the connection... usually when Thais talk about sabaii and mai sabaii, it seems to mean the situation is not an object of lobha at that time! Not quite the same meaning! On one visit, khun Sujin asked me to teach her some yoga exercises. After 2 minutes, it was 'mai sabaii'. Of course in her case it may have not been sapaya.....> 1222 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:44am Subject: welcome joe Dear Joe, welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like an exotic buffet at the moment... Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There are a few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be interesting to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'? I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did encourage me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you! Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime! Sarah > >Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my >question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or >anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a >very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the >meantime the heaps have experienced several other teachers and >approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was >accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional >language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real >duration). > >Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology >of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, >but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing >it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly >goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just >want to get the right one. > >The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with >an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The >modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha >is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I >think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that >attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such >as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter >interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes >for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in >with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was >considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the >Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha >specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who >is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see >another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one >example I could use. > >Thanks very much. > >metta, Joe 1223 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: Sapaya Sampajanna > yes, it's a bit of a riddle depending on the understanding at the time. If > it comes down to the visible object being sapaya, then how is it different > to the 4th sampajanna at that moment?! Dear Sarah, Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on the other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, whatever comes could be studied. Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- with-moha or wrong understanding). I think all four help each other and awareness to arise, Amara 1224 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Mike and friends, Thank you for giving me the 'credit'. I think the credit should go to Amara, Jonothan, Sarah, Robert, Kom, you, Leonardo, ... And above all, Khun Sujin as well as Nina VG. And I think that we were saying the same thing. I begin to relax and observe with understanding the gross emotion more. Metta, AT ============== >From: protectID >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:07:35 -0000 > >Dear Sukin and Alex, > >Alex, I think you might have got the 'credit' for my not-terribly >skilful reply, > > > ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer. Because in the > > sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe... > >Your answer was much better! > >Thanks to you all for your patience. > >mn > >--- "A T" wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > > > > >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented > > >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in > > >a meditation retreat, > > > > I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can >rise > > anywhere since it's uncontrollable. Therefore, I went to archive >to check > > what I said. What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer >Robert's > > question: > > > > >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a > > >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) > > >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance > > >of sila. > > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana > > >arise in a karaoke? > > > > > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give > > >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? > > >see you tommorow > > >Robert > > > > > > > My answer: > > > > With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of >a > > karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his >sati is > > very strong at that moment. > > > > With Metta, > > Alex > > 1225 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight Dear Mike, I admire your panna. :-))) Metta, AT ============= >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT) > > > wrote: > > > Hard work for all of us; reading, > > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition > > kusala citta? > >It sure does--I THINK. Lately, I've become a little >suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around >reflections on dhamma. Despite these reservations, >however, I've been walking around smiling like an >idiot ever since I found this group. And, whether >these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle >akusala, I thank you all for them just the same! > >mn > 1226 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Amara, That's why I try to be honest and objective when saying something positive to someone. If I contribute lobha to others' life, I feel that it's an akusala action. Metta, AT =============== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and >fear) >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 05:42:18 -0000 > >Dear friends, > >I remember Khun Sujin remarking that one sure way of spoiling someone >and making them so inflated they burst completely is praising them! > >Amara > 1227 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight Thanks, Alex, Thank you, Ma'am, you're lightyears ahead of me. By the way, when I said 'credit', I was being a little facetious. I don't think my post was particularly credit-worthy--yours was much better-informed. Mettaa back at you, mn --- A T wrote: > Dear Mike, > > I admire your panna. :-))) > > Metta, > AT > ============= > >From: "m. nease" > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight > >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hard work for all of us; reading, > > > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it > condition > > > kusala citta? > > > >It sure does--I THINK. Lately, I've become a > little > >suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around > >reflections on dhamma. Despite these reservations, > >however, I've been walking around smiling like an > >idiot ever since I found this group. And, whether > >these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle > >akusala, I thank you all for them just the same! > > > >mn > > 1228 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to be or not to be a monk? Dear Sarah and friends, Thank you for your excellent explanation. I know that if the conditions to be a monk are not there, sooner or later, he'll disrobe. What Sarah said in this post reminds me of the title of a book "The Path of Least Resistant". Metta, Alex >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] to be or not to be a monk? >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:20:30 CST > >Dear Alex, > >I know you were just kidding and we all need a bit of ribbing but actually >there is a good point behind it which I'm prompted to raise. > >What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to >meditate more? Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without >having to worry about livelihood issues? Should it be because we will >realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter >lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle >with few possessions? > >Of course there are any number of reasons why someone may become a monk (or >nun). It's important to be honest about the motive. With the development >of >right understanding, we begin to learn that understanding can develop in >daily life and we don't have to cut ourselves off or avoid our unwholesome >tendencies in order to know more about the realities appearing. Furthermore >the understanding doesn't depend on how much free time we have to study or >how calm we are. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there >is that the lifestyle at the present moment is just fine and conditioned >already and knowing the realities is all that matters. It's not the outer >appearance or situation that counts. > >So what should the reason for becoming a monk be? Khun Sujin has said to >me >more than once that the ONLY reason to become a monk should be that this is >what comes naturally for one. That one is following one's natural >accumulations and doing what comes easily. This means it's easy for one to >give up home, possessions, city life, family too. It doesn't mean one will >develop more understanding. We have to be honest with ourselves and this is >why perhaps Alex's ribbing is useful! > >Sarah > > > > >I have hardly had time to glance at a > > >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about > > >paramattha dhammas. > > > > =^_^= I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet. The >conditions > >are not yet there. =^_^= > > > 1230 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:08pm Subject: Re: to be or not to be a monk? --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to > meditate more? Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without > having to worry about livelihood issues? Should it be because we will > realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter > lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle > with few possessions? Excellent questions, Sarah, and of considerable practical interest to me, as I've been planning to ordain for some time. In fact, and for reasons pertinent to your questions, that intention has faded considerably since meeting you all. There is little doubt 'in my mind' that the instruction I can receive via this list is more valuable than that which I would have received (and experienced) had I gone ahead with my previous plans. You're probably familar with the Samannaphalasutta, wherein the Buddha discusses 'the fruits of the life of a recluse'. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html) It was with these 'fruits' in mind (in my usual vague sort of way) that I first ordained, and intended to ordain again. All of your questions are clearly addressed there (as I recall!). Though I'd still very much like to ordain again somtime, my reasons now are somewhat different. Robert (I think) mentioned in passing, not long ago, that in this era, (I'm paraphrasing), the only approach available to advanced states is vipassanaa. If that is true, it changes the picture considerably. In this discourse as well as in many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I THINK) clearly on approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas. If this is no longer an option (or not at present), then seeking an environment conducive to that kind of bhavana is no longer a good reason to ordain (though I do think there are still other good reasons). This same reasoning has had quite an effect on all my cherished micchaditthi. I have been, for a long time, employing samatha techniques for protection from the dukkhavedanaa attendant on the kilesas, moreover taking these 'practices' to be satipatthana and the resultant sukkha and pithi to be vipassanaa. Ha! The joke's on me. This is a little like suddenly being relieved of all my clothes, outdoors, on a cold day. Chilling, embarrassing and liberating all at once. No wonder I want robes! (That's a joke). Thanks as always, Sarah, for your thoughtful post (and Alex for your thoughtful ribbing!) mn 1231 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:49pm Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) > That's why I try to be honest and objective when saying something > positive to someone. If I contribute lobha to others' life, I feel that > it's an akusala action. Dear Alex, Thank you for your sincerity, I sometimes wonder about the difference between saying kind things when it is true which should be kusala, and encouraging lobha. Although lobha, as Varee wrote in Q&A3 in our website, 'Any unpleasant or undesirable feeling is dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want. But a closer enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha. Generally overlooked because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy that pleases with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to overcome.' Of course we can't encourage it in someone who doesn't have the lobha cetasika any more, or has one that is greatly reduced. But don't we try to be pleasant and make people happy rather than give them dosa? In fact the sila describes musavada in the finer points as, besides lying, to speak words that are like putting a lotus stem in the other's ears. Ouch! Perhaps it is the intention that counts, was it to hurt or to say the truth when appropriate? I don't think there is any mention of saying nice true things being against a sila unless there is the intention to spoil the person. I think Khun Sujin meant most people do lose sight of their limits when there is too much praise some begin to believe they are really great and become over confident. In fact we should learn to endure both blame and praise, I think, like the Ven. Sariputta who said he was like the earth that did not react to all the dirt cast on it or the precious things placed on it, or something to that effect. Which shows how much further we have to go to be really steadfast in the dhamma, since we lose our equanimity over both! Amara 1232 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk? --- protectID wrote: > --- In > You're probably familar with the Samannaphalasutta, > wherein the > Buddha discusses 'the fruits of the life of a > recluse'. > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html) > It was with > these 'fruits' in mind (in my usual vague sort of > way) that I first > ordained, and intended to ordain again. > > Though I'd still very much like to ordain again > somtime, my reasons > now are somewhat different. Robert (I think) > mentioned in passing, > not long ago, that in this era, (I'm paraphrasing), > the only approach > available to advanced states is vipassanaa. All paths need vipassana but it is said that now only the path of pure vipassana is available, not the "freed in both ways" types who were so skilled in (had mastery - it was 'daily life' for them) jhana that they could use jhana as the basis for vipassana. If that > is true, it > changes the picture considerably. In this discourse > as well as in > many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I THINK) > clearly on > approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas. Actually, I think this sutta is very comprehensive and includes all ways. The Buddha, by showing the "freed in both ways", that most comprehensive of paths, also includes the slightly inferior sukka-vippasaka types. By the way an excellent translation with commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "the discourse on the fruits of recluseship" I think we can't be absolutely certain who is suited for the monks life. Some had great hardship and pain as monks and nuns but still attained. If one becomes a monk accumulations are needed for certain lifestyles. Not all monks went into the forest. Upali, the vinaya expert wanted to but the Buddha told him to stay in the vihara so that he could learn more- he became arahant. On the other hand, the milinda-panha says that the dhutanga have so many manifold benefits - it almost sounds like it is a requirement. I think the milinda-panha indicates that laypeople who attain as laypeople must have been, or usually would have been, monks or nuns under previous Buddha -sasanas so that they accumulated the wisdom to be enlightened now. Then again the vissudhimagga notes that some go to the forest through delusion etc. Another complication is modern times- many problems with the sangha as a whole. Ultimately a moment of satipatthana is a moment of the deepest type of renunciation - the renunciation of self, and that applies whether one is a layperson or a monk. robert 1233 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk? Dear friends, After reading near the end of the Sutta at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html 'Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father -- that righteous man, that righteous king -- the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat." ' I feel that most of us are wounded, and incapacitated. Otherwise, with the available materials in the internet and books, "the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen" to us already. It seems I'm a little pessimistic. Back to the drawing board! Metta, AT P.S.: Dear Mike, you're very humble and very knowledgeable. And you're welome. 1234 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question Dear Joe, Just got a copy of the Pali Text Society's Pali dictionary. On page420 it gives the following definition for paramattha:". . .the highest good, ideal; truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth. . ." Hope this is of some help. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Cummings Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question > Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my > question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or > anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a > very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the > meantime the heaps have experienced several other teachers and > approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was > accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional > language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real > duration). > > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology > of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, > but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly > goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just > want to get the right one. > > The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with > an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The > modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha > is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I > think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that > attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such > as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter > interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes > for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in > with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was > considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the > Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha > specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who > is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see > another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one > example I could use. > > Thanks very much. > > metta, Joe > > 1235 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk? Dear Alex, I believe the suttra is mentioning the fact that the king killed his father, one of the kamma that surely prevents nibbhana in that life. One of the interpretation of Buddha's word would be, the king had accumulated enough panna through his countless previous lives, that had he not killed his father in that life, and hence preventing nibbhana, he would have attained enlightenment after hearing what Buddha had taught him. For us, venyasatta (those who need to study, most likely for a long long time), it is just a matter of attaining panna, knowing realities as they are, moment by moment, until one day, the condition is ripe (and perhaps while hearing the words from another sammasam buddha!!!), we will attain enlightenment. Anumodhana for your continued interest. kom --- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > After reading near the end of the Sutta at: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html > > 'Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed > the > monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he > not > killed his father -- that righteous man, that righteous king -- the > dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in > this > very seat." ' > > I feel that most of us are wounded, and incapacitated. Otherwise, > with the > available materials in the internet and books, "the dustless, > stainless > Dhamma eye would have arisen" to us already. > > It seems I'm a little pessimistic. Back to the drawing board! > > Metta, > AT > > P.S.: Dear Mike, you're very humble and very knowledgeable. And > you're > welome. > 1236 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:17am Subject: Re: to be or not to be a monk? If this is no longer an > option (or not at present), then seeking an environment conducive to > that kind of bhavana is no longer a good reason to ordain (though I > do think there are still other good reasons). > > This same reasoning has had quite an effect on all my cherished > micchaditthi. Dear Mike, Anumodana, I am so happy for you! By the way, tomorrow I might be quite late to get on line if at all, and the next day probably not: I'll be off to the seaside with my mother, so I'll sign off for awhile, and see everyone on the list again soon! Amara 1237 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk? Dear Kom, >For us, venyasatta (those who need to study, most likely for a long >long time), it is just a matter of attaining panna, knowing realities >as they are, moment by moment, until one day, the condition is ripe >(and perhaps while hearing the words from another sammasam buddha!!!), >we will attain enlightenment. Thank you for the encouragement. Metta, AT 1238 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- amara chay wrote: Dear Amara and Alex, Thanks for the good words. As a glutton for praise myself, this is valuable advice. Two points: (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance) is only khanti if it arises in reaction to something that might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not lobha. If that is so, is there another parami--maybe upekkha, or sacca--maybe just panna--that might arise similarly in reaction to something that might otherwise cause the arising of lobha? (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving for the arising of either of these parami? If there is, I'd very much like to know how to go about it. But in fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in the present citta (and other conditions) allow them to arise? Thanks again, mn > > That's why I try to be honest and objective > when saying > something > > positive to someone. If I contribute lobha to > others' life, I feel > that > > it's an akusala action. > > > Dear Alex, > > Thank you for your sincerity, I sometimes wonder > about the > difference between saying kind things when it is > true which should > be kusala, and encouraging lobha. Although lobha, > as Varee wrote in > Q&A3 in our website, 'Any unpleasant or undesirable > feeling is > dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want. > But a closer > enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha. Generally > overlooked > because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy > that pleases > with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to > overcome.' Of course > we can't encourage it in someone who doesn't have > the lobha cetasika > any more, or has one that is greatly reduced. But > don't we try to > be pleasant and make people happy rather than give > them dosa? In > fact the sila describes musavada in the finer points > as, besides > lying, to speak words that are like putting a lotus > stem in the > other's ears. Ouch! Perhaps it is the intention > that counts, was > it to hurt or to say the truth when appropriate? I > don't think > there is any mention of saying nice true things > being against a sila > unless there is the intention to spoil the person. > I think Khun > Sujin meant most people do lose sight of their > limits when there is > too much praise some begin to believe they are > really great and > become over confident. In fact we should learn to > endure both blame > and praise, I think, like the Ven. Sariputta who > said he was like > the earth that did not react to all the dirt cast on > it or the > precious things placed on it, or something to that > effect. Which > shows how much further we have to go to be really > steadfast in the > dhamma, since we lose our equanimity over both! > > Amara > > 1239 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > All paths need vipassana but it is said that now > only > the path of pure vipassana is available, not the > "freed in both ways" types who were so skilled in > (had > mastery - it was 'daily life' for them) jhana that > they could use jhana as the basis for vipassana. Thanks for the clarification, and my apologies for the crude paraphrase of your previous remarks. > > If that > > is true, it > > changes the picture considerably. In this > > discourse > > as well as in > > many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I > > THINK) > > clearly on > > approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas. > Actually, I think this sutta is very comprehensive > and > includes all ways. The Buddha, by showing the "freed > in both ways", that most comprehensive of paths, > also > includes the slightly inferior sukka-vippasaka > types. > By the way an excellent translation with commentary > by > Bhikkhu Bodhi: "the discourse on the fruits of > recluseship" ...again, thanks for the clarification/correction... > Not all monks went into the forest. > Upali, > the vinaya expert wanted to but the Buddha told him > to > stay in the vihara so that he could learn more- he > became arahant. If I knew that, I'd forgotten. Quite encouraging! Where can I read more? > On the other hand, the milinda-panha says that the > dhutanga have so many manifold benefits - it almost > sounds like it is a requirement. I think the > milinda-panha indicates that laypeople who attain > as > laypeople must have been, or usually would have > been, > monks or nuns under previous Buddha -sasanas so that > they accumulated the wisdom to be enlightened now. > > Then again the vissudhimagga notes that some go to > the > forest through delusion etc. > Another complication is modern times- many problems > with the sangha as a whole. And not just modern times--a good portion of the vinayapitaka is a history of deluded monks, who had often had the benefit of the Buddha's direct teaching... > Ultimately a moment of satipatthana is a moment of > the > deepest type of renunciation - the renunciation of > self, and that applies whether one is a layperson or > a > monk. Well put, and thanks again... mn 1240 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- > > (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance) > is > only khanti if it arises in reaction to something > that > might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not > lobha. Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be developed toward pleasant things too. This is often overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when we are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors ae guarded. > > > (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving > for > the arising of either of these parami? If there is, > I'd very much like to know how to go about it. But > in > fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in > the > present citta (and other conditions) allow them to > arise? Nina van gorkom has wriiten a book on the parami - I think amara will put it on the web one day. > > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from heaven". The Buddha said gains and praise are so dire so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who was overcome by them. However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of it this is not our concern really. It is like giving- if you are so worried that the person you give to might not use the gift in the right way you might never give. Of course if you know that praise will definitely spoil the person then don't praise. If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them to like you. It can be done from wrong view- example some people praise their deluded teachers so much(think of cults). robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > 1241 From: Joe Cummings Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:11pm Subject: paramattha Dear Robert & Amara Thanks very much for your feedback on "paramattha". It sounds like the 'attha' in this term is not related to the 'attha/artha' meaning 'goal' or 'wealth'. It's a little difficult to tell without a dictionary since Pali, in simplifying Sanskrit's consonant clusters, created a whole new class of homonyms. I would still like to go further with this term, to get at its exact historical meaning, as opposed to simpler (but not necessarily 'fundamental') definitions provided by the commentaries. For personal edification only ... Just as abhidhamma scrutinises 'seeing' or 'touching', I do think every word in the Pali texts needs unpacking at some point, to really get at the kernel meanings. I don't see how it's possible to really understand the tripitaka without studying Pali and Sanskrit, just as you can't really understand the Christian Bible without knowing Hebrew (and arguably Greek), or understand the Koran without a thorough knowledge of classical Arabic. Otherwise you're always trusting someone else's interpretation of the text, no? This is really a wonderful discussion group. The exchange on sabaya/sabaai reminded me of the literal meaning of sawatdii in Thai, loosely 'well-being' (literally 'it is well' -- 'su + asti' -- a Vedic 'power phrase' or affirmation). The same PS word appears in that much maligned -- since WWII -- term 'swastika' ('mark of well-being''). metta, Joe ________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:34:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: pali question > >Dear Joe, >Welcome to the group! We are expecially glad to have >someone who studied with Khun Sujin in the past. Your >pali questions are way beyond me but I found your >reasoning sound (if it is right I don't know). . > > I'm guessing > > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, > > meaning worldly > > goals/concerns). . > >paramattha is carefully defined in the ancient >commentaries and it means ultimate or fundamental. >I guess Amara might have some ideas on this. It is >often compared with pannati, concept and samutti, >conventional. Only citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana >are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. >Robert > > > > > > > > The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a > > discussion with > > an editor about the proper translation of > > Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The > > modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation > > of Siddhartha > > is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his > > goal'. However I > > think a better translation might be one that makes > > it clear that > > attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than > > spiritual, goals (such > > as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). > > The latter > > interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' > > alleged wishes > > for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context > > of the times in > > with Siddhartha was born, when artha or > > wealth/property was > > considered one of the four main human objectives > > mandated by the > > Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim > > that attha/artha > > specifically refers to material or worldly issues, > > but my editor, who > > is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, > > would like to see > > another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if > > paramattha is one > > example I could use. > > > > Thanks very much. > > > > metta, Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message: 17 > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:02:44 -0000 > From: "amara chay" >Subject: Re: pali question > > > > > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology > > of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, > > but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing > > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly > > goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just > > want to get the right one. > > >Hi! > >Parama means great, supreme, thorough, and attha, as you know may >mean several things: the meaning, the essence, the goal, as you said, >so in fact paramatthadhamma means the ultimate essence of the truth, >in other words 'absolute reality', as we say in our classes. > >I would suspect that the use of the word attha here would be >different from the use in the name Siddhattha because here attha is >obviously the goal, and the name would be more or less one who >attains his goal, as your editor says, without necessarily >specifying whether it is material or not. Not that I'm Pali >knowledgeable or anything, I just have a friend who is! > >I rather think I agree with your editor, because when the brahmins >predicted his future at his birth, they all said he would rule the >world (or something to that effect) either in the worldly or the >religious sense, except for the last branmin who specified uniquely >the religious. In this light I think his parents would have named >him auspiciously to succeed in either of his goals, no matter which >he happened to choose. > >But that is my personal opinion which in no way reflect that of this >group, hope it was of some use, > >Amara 1242 From: Joe Cummings Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:14pm Subject: time & path Hi Sarah Nice to be back in touch with the Dhamma Study Group. You've asked for a little history, so here goes. I made the initial decision to visit Thailand after reading Towards The Truth by Aj. Buddhadasa in 1970. I must have re-read that book 15 times that year. After I finished college and worked for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall correctly) lived. I didn't really socialise with anyone in the DSG, or even speak with them much outside the discussions, and unfortunately can't remember anyone's names (though Jonothan Abbot sure rings a bell -- could he have been the ex-monk?). I sometimes rode to the meetings with an American woman named Nina, and sometimes with farang monks from Wat Bowon. That same year I was participating in weekly meditation practice with Phra Khantipalo and the Rawng Sangkharaat at Wat Bowon, altogether quite a commute for a young man living near Wong Wian Yai in Thonburi and teaching English at King Mongkut's Institute of Technology in Bang Mot Monday through Friday! I returned to the US in 1978 to pursue an MA at the University of California, focusing on Thai language and Buddhism. For my final thesis I returned to Thailand in early 1981 and translated two of Aj. Buddhadasa's books, Emptiness-Empty Mind and Nibbanna: Life's Destination. I started sitting in Mahasi Sayadaw-style retreats that same year and found myself, for lack of a better way to describe it, 'nailed to the path'. I must confess that despite attending Ajahn Sujin's (I can't help but address her as 'ajahn', per Thai custom) discussions in 1977 and meditating at Wat Bowon, the apprehension of 'nama - rupa' remained largely academic for me until I participated in my first intensive retreat, under Sayadaw U Silananda, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw's, in Monte Rio, California. I'm not saying the practice or the retreats precipitated the arising of sati; obviously the accumulations were ripe at that particular time. But it felt like a very natural sequence of events. It was also in 1981 that I found a livelihood that has allowed me to travel extensively in Buddhist lands, which seems to have been a necessity (for me) in shoring up saddha. From 1981 forwards I spent four to eight months a year in Thailand and Burma, and, beginning in 1989, I added Laos to the circuit. Along the way I met and accepted teachings from a number of monks and meditation teachers in each of these countries. I find it difficult to talk about the experiences that have occurred during this wandering phase (which is far from over!). Of course there's not really much to say that's relevant to anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further away). Thailand is my home base, though I continue to travel a lot and have a house in Mexico, where Theravada has been taking root only over the last decade. This past year the path has felt firmer, perhaps because I spent much of it writing a book about Buddhist stupas, and have been considering the role of architecture in the preservation of dhamma (if that sounds weird you'll just have to read the book for an explanation!). Reading and writing about Buddhism -- however misguided the writing may sometimes be -- helps with attention to the path. And this year I've rediscovered your dhamma study group. I'm extremely impressed by the facility with which you all can discuss the dhammas. I find myself nodding my head in experiential confirmation, while knowing I couldn't begin to explain many of these things myself. I haven't been the most diligent or efficient dhamma student, but if there's a pace to it all it seems natural. I don't know what the Abhidhamma has to say about it, but I concluded a while back that a certain measure of nibbida must continually occur to keep one moving along the path, and it ebbs and flows. One forgets to learn, and ignores many opportunities for understanding, until nibbida brings one back. Stay tuned as the accumulations deal further with the entanglements. Sorry if this is more than you wanted to know, Sarah! I don't know if any of it's relevant to anyone else, but I'd be interested to hear your story-in-progress, and everyone else's, as time and will permits. metta, Joe Message: 23 > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:44:16 CST > From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: welcome joe > >Dear Joe, > >welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any >protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like an >exotic buffet at the moment... > >Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There are a >few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be interesting >to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you >feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'? > >I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did encourage >me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you! > >Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime! > >Sarah 1243 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Robert, Another wonderful post! This one explains very clearly how to give praises and how to accept them. Thank you for your compassion when explaining and analysing in our discussions. Anumodana, Alex ==================================== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and >fear) >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Mike, >--- "m. nease" wrote: > > > --- > > > (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance) > > is > > only khanti if it arises in reaction to something > > that > > might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not > > lobha. > >Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be >developed toward pleasant things too. This is often >overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when we >are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors >ae guarded. > > > > > > > (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving > > for > > the arising of either of these parami? If there is, > > I'd very much like to know how to go about it. But > > in > > fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in > > the > > present citta (and other conditions) allow them to > > arise? > >Nina van gorkom has wriiten a book on the parami - I >think amara will put it on the web one day. > > > > > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from >heaven". The Buddha said gains and praise are so dire >so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who was >overcome by them. >However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy >of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of it >this is not our concern really. It is like giving- if >you are so worried that the person you give to might >not use the gift in the right way you might never >give. >Of course if you know that praise will definitely >spoil the person then don't praise. >If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is >akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them to >like you. It can be done from wrong view- example some >people praise their deluded teachers so much(think of >cults). >robert 1244 From: Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:57am Subject: Re: time & path Dear Joe, Wow, I'm very impressed with your experience and knowledge. I'm looking forward to learn a lot from you. Was your Master degree related to linguistics? The way you analyze words reminds me of that field. Thank you for being with us, Alex Tran 1245 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) wrote: > Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be > developed toward pleasant things too. This is often > overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when > we > are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors > are guarded. Dear Robert, Thanks for this excellent response. It occurred to me this morning that the desire for praise is a particularly unwholesome one, since gratification of that desire directly conditions or strengthens sakkayaditthi--the worst thing that can happen! I wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more likely, for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa than moha... > > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from > heaven". What a great expression! > The Buddha said gains and praise are so > dire > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who > was > overcome by them. So, presumably, the important thing is to try to clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or frustration when they arise (if possible), or to understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect? > However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy > of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of > it > this is not our concern really. It is like giving- Of course... > if > you are so worried that the person you give to might > not use the gift in the right way you might never > give. Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana, or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four quarters, for example, has on the external world, but rather the the result of that intention and effort, internally, on subsequently arising citta. > Of course if you know that praise will definitely > spoil the person then don't praise. Clearly, intention is the issue. > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them > to > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example > some > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think > of > cults). Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the (unintentional) delusion. Well, sorry if I keep 'praising' your posts...! But as you said, it isn't all akusala... Thank you again, sir... mn 1247 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) sorry about the last post I inadvertently sent off before writing anything. Dear mike, --- > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for this excellent response. It occurred to me > this morning that the desire for praise is a > particularly unwholesome one, since gratification of > that desire directly conditions or strengthens > sakkayaditthi--the worst thing that can happen! sakkyaditthi supports the desire for praise so much! Praise, of itself is of so little use- you can't eat it, drink it, drive it, or kiss it but it sure makes SElf feel good. > ! > > > The Buddha said gains and praise are so > > dire > > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who > > was > > overcome by them. > > So, presumably, the important thing is to try to > clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or > frustration when they arise (if possible), or to > understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect? Yes, if we are very happy about being praised for sure it is lobha. I would guess that when khun sujin is praised she is sometimes happy if the praise shows the student is understanding some difficult dhamma point. She seems very neutral if praise is given and the understanding is absent. When we understand in retrospect it can be useful- it is understanding at the level of consideration. If we understand it as it arises so much the better. > > > > > if > > you are so worried that the person you give to might > > not use the gift in the right way you might never > > give. > > Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana, > or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four > quarters, for example, has on the external world, but > rather the the result of that intention and effort, > internally, on subsequently arising citta. Did you know that when the buddha came down the jewelled staircase from the tavitimsa deva world after having preached abhidhamma there that almost all the beings who saw his glory that day had lobha. Even the Buddha cannot so easily condition the cittas of others to be kusala. Only the Dhamma properly taught in sufficient detail can help us to understand these difficult matters. > > > Of course if you know that praise will definitely > > spoil the person then don't praise. > > Clearly, intention is the issue. > > > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is > > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them > > to > > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example > > some > > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think > > of > > cults). > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the > (unintentional) delusion. > In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but who teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your teaching about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech (vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. It may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha (always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same teacher happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him "how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may be genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana. When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life we mean any intention that wants what is good for others and ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha dhammas as they arise directly. Robert 1248 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path Dear Joe, I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really appreciate all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where people are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and experience for sure! Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who now lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was supporting most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have occasional news of many of them. Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture and teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the role of architecture in preserving dhamma with you! As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying with Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong. We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet you and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list group at the Shangrila where we'll be staying. Delighted to have you in the group, even if we can't answer all yr Pali questions fully! Sarah When I first met K.Sujin in Sri lanka, I asked her how I should address her and she said just call me Sujin or Khun Sujin so it stuck for me. Most others use the more respectful Ajahn, especially the Thais...whatever you are comfortable with... > >Hi Sarah > >Nice to be back in touch with the Dhamma Study Group. You've asked for a >little history, so here goes. I made the initial decision to visit Thailand >after reading Towards The Truth by Aj. Buddhadasa in 1970. I must have >re-read that book 15 times that year. After I finished college and worked >for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I >attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this >group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout >that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon >Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall >correctly) lived. I didn't really socialise with anyone in the DSG, or even >speak with them much outside the discussions, and unfortunately can't >remember anyone's names (though Jonothan Abbot sure rings a bell -- could >he have been the ex-monk?). I sometimes rode to the meetings with an >American woman named Nina, and sometimes with farang monks from Wat Bowon. >That same year I was participating in weekly meditation practice with Phra >Khantipalo and the Rawng Sangkharaat at Wat Bowon, altogether quite a >commute for a young man living near Wong Wian Yai in Thonburi and teaching >English at King Mongkut's Institute of Technology in Bang Mot Monday >through Friday! > >I returned to the US in 1978 to pursue an MA at the University of >California, focusing on Thai language and Buddhism. For my final thesis I >returned to Thailand in early 1981 and translated two of Aj. Buddhadasa's >books, Emptiness-Empty Mind and Nibbanna: Life's Destination. I started >sitting in Mahasi Sayadaw-style retreats that same year and found myself, >for lack of a better way to describe it, 'nailed to the path'. I must >confess that despite attending Ajahn Sujin's (I can't help but address her >as 'ajahn', per Thai custom) discussions in 1977 and meditating at Wat >Bowon, the apprehension of 'nama - rupa' remained largely academic for me >until I participated in my first intensive retreat, under Sayadaw U >Silananda, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw's, in Monte Rio, California. I'm not >saying the practice or the retreats precipitated the arising of sati; >obviously the accumulations were ripe at that particular time. But it felt >like a very natural sequence of events. It was also in 1981 that I found a >livelihood that has allowed me to travel extensively in Buddhist lands, >which seems to have been a necessity (for me) in shoring up saddha. > > From 1981 forwards I spent four to eight months a year in Thailand and >Burma, and, beginning in 1989, I added Laos to the circuit. Along the way I >met and accepted teachings from a number of monks and meditation teachers >in each of these countries. I find it difficult to talk about the >experiences that have occurred during this wandering phase (which is far >from over!). Of course there's not really much to say that's relevant to >anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told >conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of >my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I >think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further >away). Thailand is my home base, though I continue to travel a lot and have >a house in Mexico, where Theravada has been taking root only over the last >decade. > >This past year the path has felt firmer, perhaps because I spent much of it >writing a book about Buddhist stupas, and have been considering the role of >architecture in the preservation of dhamma (if that sounds weird you'll >just have to read the book for an explanation!). Reading and writing about >Buddhism -- however misguided the writing may sometimes be -- helps with >attention to the path. > >And this year I've rediscovered your dhamma study group. I'm extremely >impressed by the facility with which you all can discuss the dhammas. I >find myself nodding my head in experiential confirmation, while knowing I >couldn't begin to explain many of these things myself. I haven't been the >most diligent or efficient dhamma student, but if there's a pace to it all >it seems natural. I don't know what the Abhidhamma has to say about it, but >I concluded a while back that a certain measure of nibbida must continually >occur to keep one moving along the path, and it ebbs and flows. One forgets >to learn, and ignores many opportunities for understanding, until nibbida >brings one back. > >Stay tuned as the accumulations deal further with the entanglements. Sorry >if this is more than you wanted to know, Sarah! I don't know if any of >it's relevant to anyone else, but I'd be interested to hear your >story-in-progress, and everyone else's, as time and will permits. > >metta, Joe > > > >Message: 23 > > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:44:16 CST > > From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > >Subject: welcome joe > > > >Dear Joe, > > > >welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any > >protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like >an > >exotic buffet at the moment... > > > >Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There >are a > >few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be >interesting > >to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you > >feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'? > > > >I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did >encourage > >me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you! > > > >Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime! > > > >Sarah > 1250 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 6:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear Robert, It was so wonderful having you visit with us and even better still to read your letters. I've begun to save some of the ones I think are quite good (lobha). But why do you call Paticcasamupada a "theory" since it is reality and not a theory as such? with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 beyugala@k... ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke > Robert wrote "Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise > before the > > > nivarana of sense desire arises. > > > Panna can > > > understand > > > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : > > > "On > > > seeing a visible object with > > > > > the > > > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > > > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > > > > faculty > > > > > unguarded, > > > > [...by appamatta, I think...] > > > > > > > evil an unprofitable states of > > > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > > > > > enters > > > > > upon the way of its restraint..." > > > > Mike wrote "Yes. If sampajanna arises after > 'feeling' before > > 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no > > becoming.'--?" > Dear Mike, > You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding of > paticusamupada into the actual experience. Nothing > wrong with that - we can see this to some extent. > However, remember that sati does not have to take > feeling as an object. It could have taken > rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment. At > the moment of seeing there always only neutral > feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises > later. You said "arises after feeling before desire" > (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise before the > > > nivarana of sense desire arises ")but in reality > it is happening so fast that any idea of time sequence > is just an idea, a concept based on what we have > heard. We can understand someting of this process but > it may be counterproductive if we try to force the > the theory into the actual moments. > > Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be > paraphrased, > 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact > between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa), > pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact, > desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant > feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling, > clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent > on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I > desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the > contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of > paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right?" > > It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty > woman- only colors ).Just for those who might think > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't think > this mm!) we should understand that these processes > are being repeated billions of times a second. How > much we really see of it all (directly) depends on the > level of panna that has acumulated. > > Still the more we learn about the theory of > paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation > into it in daily life- and that can't be bad. > Robert > (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha) > > > > 1251 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Robert, Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and the receiver are worthy? I heard that it's something like: 1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy. 2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is. 3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not. 4. Less than "so so": both are not. Thanks, AT > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be > > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the > > (unintentional) delusion. > > >In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala >cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for >example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but who >teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your teaching >about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech >(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. It >may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha >(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same teacher >happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him >"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may be >genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately >after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt >almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi >always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as >do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana. >When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life we >mean any intention that wants what is good for others and >ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and >ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha dhammas >as they arise directly. >Robert > 1252 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:38am Subject: Re: Maggha citta > The book mentioned that Maggha Citta (not with Jhana citta) may arise > with either Somanassa Vedana or Upecha Vedana, corresponding directly > to the vedana arising with the maha-kusala citta that precedes it. > For > example, if maha-kusala citta preceding it arises with Somanassa, the > Maggha citta also arises with Somanassa. > > The book then proceeds to say that even when the Maggha citta can be > classified as either as being ajhana, or jhana. If it is classified > as jhana, > then it is in the same category as the meggha citta following the > first rupa > jhana citta. > > However, the Maggha citta that follows the first rupa jhana citta > will > certainly have Somanassa vedana and piti as jhana factors, whereas > Maggha citta following the maha-kusala citta with Upecha will have > Upecha as vedana, and will have no piti as a factor. How do you > reconcile > these two seemingly inconsistent statements? Dear friends, I just got back from another strange day with a lot of kusala vipaka followed by considerable akusala vipaka, in the company of Tan Achaan Sujin and her sisters, therefore it was interposed with dhamma studies throughout! (This really tested the sapaya for me!) But before I forget our rather complicated issue of the magga citta, I would like to address the problem first: As you know (and those who don't might like to read 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VII' on our site , advanced section ) there are several levels of jhana from the rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta to the nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana which is the higest level, with the sublevel defined by the 'elements of jhana'. But, as said towards the end of the chapter: Before the enlightenment of the Buddha, there were people who developed samatha-bhavana to the attainment of nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and trained the citta until they acquired supernatural powers of sight, hearing, recalling past lives and the ability to perform miracles. Still, they were unable to realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma since they had not developed the cause, namely vipassana-bhavana, to perfection to be paccaya for the realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. And some continue to have wrong view and cling to practices that do not lead to the realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma even after the Buddha had become enlightened and manifested the dhamma and among those who realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma and became the ariya-savaka, there are more who had not attained jhana-citta with the principal elements of jhana, than those who had (Samyuttanikaya Sagathavagga Vangisasamyutta Pavaranasutta 745). (End quote.) Even after the most arduous practices could not get rid of kilesa, only repress it (by developing kusala citta until the mind is so steadfast in the aramana that the jhana citta arises, with complete peace from kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha,) in other words, those with even the nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana could not attain even the lowest nana of vipassana, namely nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, the first of the 16 leading to the state of the sotapanna. Still, for those who had attained the jhana citta before vipassana attainments would experience the same jhana levels as those without vipassana, except that with nibbana as aramana, the magga citta and bala citta would have the eight cetasika of the eightfold path arising at the moment and the virati, all three at once together, (which as you know only arise with the magga citta,) would perform the function or completely eradicating the cetasika that is the kilesa completely extinguished at that level (at the sotapanna level the vicikiccha for example would be completely eradicated, no more even anusaya left, in fact we could say there would be fewer than the normal 52 left, and fewer as higher levels of attainments are reached, until at the level of the Arahanta, all kilesa are completely eradicated, never to arise again in samsara). Note: the levels of attainment do not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had attained only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and akusala could probably do it). Also: since the vipassana attainments completely eradicates respective levels of kilesa, the jhana accompanied by nana is much more peaceful than those without (tranquility exempt from kilesa momentarily vs. permanently) Then there are those (in fact the majority, since conditions required for the samatha practice are so very difficult to fulfill) who 'practice' only vipassana, but since the citta with nibbana or even the aramana of the nana citta of the lowest level of vipassana is so steadfast, and exempt from lobha, dosa and moha so completely that it reaches the same level of jhana as the first level of jhana citta without ever having to practice samatha. In other words even the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana would be as steadfast and exempt for kilesa as the first level of jhana automatically. At that moment the vedana would be as you said, somanassa or upekkha, depending. Which means although that level of nana is of peacefulness the equivalent of the jhana citta, it no longer follows the rule of the jhana citta because there is no samatha practice involved. By the way she says that the somanassa comes from the joy of reaching that level of knowledge. She and Khun Jeed are very glad that 'Nong C' is so steadfast in studying the dhamma, by the way, and remember you and your group very well, you have the reputation of serious students! Thank you for forcing me to learn about the jhana citta, something I used to think has nothing to do with vipassana and therefore uninteresting, before! Anumodana, Amara 1253 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > But why do you call Paticcasamupada a "theory" since it is > reality and not a > theory as such? > Dear betty, Great to hear from you! Even trying to understand the paticcasampuda intellectually I find most challenging. It is still a theory to the extent that we have not/do not see/seen it directly. As wisdom develops the gap between experience and theory closes. Robert 1254 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:25am Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) I > wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more likely, > for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa than > moha... Dear Mike, I would not be fair if I did not tell you what she also said that day, but I almost wish I didn't have to tell you because all this has been such interesting reading! She also said that one would know whom one might praise without spoiling, for example the Budhha and such. In fact kind and true words of sincere praise would certainly not be accompanied by akusala cetana! The person who says it would not be responsible for the receiver's akusala accumulations: that they feel elated, pleased, embarrassed, sad or angry at praise (or blame, for that matter,) is their own 'self' having a reaction, the vipaka is only through the five dvara just like anything else. It's their lobha or dosa that arises in the javana according to conditions which include their accumulations... And it is better to know this than to have delusions that we are selfless and beyond these effects, as well as to keep in mind that the axe could also come from above! Thank you for all your sincere 'ma'am's, sir! Amara > > > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from > > heaven". > > What a great expression! > > > The Buddha said gains and praise are so > > dire > > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who > > was > > overcome by them. > > So, presumably, the important thing is to try to > clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or > frustration when they arise (if possible), or to > understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect? > > > However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy > > of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of > > it > > this is not our concern really. It is like giving- > > Of course... > > > if > > you are so worried that the person you give to might > > not use the gift in the right way you might never > > give. > > Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana, > or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four > quarters, for example, has on the external world, but > rather the the result of that intention and effort, > internally, on subsequently arising citta. > > > Of course if you know that praise will definitely > > spoil the person then don't praise. > > Clearly, intention is the issue. > > > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is > > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them > > to > > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example > > some > > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think > > of > > cults). > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the > (unintentional) delusion. > > Well, sorry if I keep 'praising' your posts...! But > as you said, it isn't all akusala... > > Thank you again, sir... > > mn > > 1255 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- amara chay wrote: > I > > wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more > likely, > > for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa > than > > moha... Welcome back, Amara! What I MEANT to say above was, "...arising of dosa than LOBHA..."--not moha--in reference to my misunderstanding of the nature of khanti. My speculation has already been corrected in various ways, thank you very much for your additions. > > > Dear Mike, > > I would not be fair if I did not tell you what she > also said that > day, but I almost wish I didn't have to tell you > because all this > has been such interesting reading! She also said > that one would > know whom one might praise without spoiling, for > example the Budhha > and such. In fact kind and true words of sincere > praise would > certainly not be accompanied by akusala cetana! The > person who says > it would not be responsible for the receiver's > akusala > accumulations: that they feel elated, pleased, > embarrassed, sad or > angry at praise (or blame, for that matter,) is > their own 'self' > having a reaction, the vipaka is only through the > five dvara just > like anything else. It's their lobha or dosa that > arises in the > javana according to conditions which include their > accumulations... > And it is better to know this than to have delusions > that we are > selfless and beyond these effects, as well as to > keep in mind that > the axe could also come from above! Thank you for > all your > sincere 'ma'am's, sir! Always a pleasure, ma'am! mn 1256 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:36am Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) > Welcome back, Amara! Dear Mike, Thank you, and good bye again, I'm leaving very early tomorrow and might not be back until the day after! 'See' you all again soon, Amara 1257 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:29am Subject: Re: Maggha citta Dear Group, I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a mistake, or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence, Note: the levels of attainment do > not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had attained > only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana > but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has > the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we > remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, > so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and > akusala could probably do it). there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have the acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana. Sorry for my usual carelessness, Amara 1258 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:43pm Subject: Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise Dear Mike, I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these comments if I'm just repeating. Sometimes I start a message, get called away and find it's been answered much better by someone else before i get back to it! The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as sediment before those bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many different conditions. One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) whereby citta and cetasikas would support each other or the 4 elements would 'prop' each other up. Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). Simultaneous with one reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for instance, in one and the same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and vinnana is for the other 3 khandhas a condition by way of sahajata. So it goes on. More condtions help explain why any given reality arises at any time. Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and it's rather like asking whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes! As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the accumulation at the present moment. In other words, the more precise the understanding and awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa vedana at this moment, the more the understanding understands its anattaness, its conditioned nature. A moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another moment of somanassa vedana by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Of course, as we know, only the Buddha can fully understand all the conditions of realities. However, we shouldn't underestimate the power of panna when it begins to grow...even intellectually in the beginning. Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about paticca samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite a while, but I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as though it were an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then clinging, then feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas arising together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, ignorance with all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too! I may just be repeating the obvious in this post, but there are some good intentions! Just one comment on the praise topic. It is the intention that's important as you say. However, it can be a little like the giving thing...there's wise and unwise giving. It's not always appropriate to give a kid a lolly and so on. I notice with my students that I tend to use more praise with those lacking in confidence and struggling and less with those who are already over confident and need a bit more 'dressing down'...Only the Buddha gets it right all the time and knows what is appropriate to say to whom when....but it's useful to consider what is really in the other's best interests.... Sometimes this may be keeping quiet! If the list has brought back a smile to your face, it's serving its purpose....the dhamma should make life easier and not harder! Don't go getting a chill when you step into that snow without yr clothes on! best wishes, Sarah >Dear Amara, > >So: The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or >conditioned (in the same sense that the citta >are)--they become active dependent on the >accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this >right? > >Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something >obvious. This is all pretty new to me, and it helps >if I can simplify it a little. > >I liked the citta/computer analogy. There's also >something in it that reminds me of genetics, but I >can't quite put my finger on it. > 1259 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Maggha citta Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for following with Tan A. Sujin on the question. I will relay the information to other people in the studying group. We are still absorbing what you said about accumulations. Anumoddhana. kom --- amara chay wrote: > Dear friends, > > I just got back from another strange day with a lot of kusala vipaka > followed by considerable akusala vipaka, in the company of Tan > Achaan Sujin and her sisters, therefore it was interposed with > dhamma studies throughout! (This really tested the sapaya for me!) > But before I forget our rather complicated issue of the magga citta, > I would like to address the problem first: > > As you know (and those who don't might like to read 'Summary of > Paramatthadhamma Part VII' on our site , > advanced section ) there are several levels of jhana from the > rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta to the > nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana which is the higest level, with the > sublevel defined by the 'elements of jhana'. But, as said towards > the end of the chapter: > > Before the enlightenment of the Buddha, there were people who > developed samatha-bhavana to the attainment of > nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and trained the citta until they > acquired supernatural powers of sight, hearing, recalling past > lives and the ability to perform miracles. Still, they were unable > to realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma since they had not developed the > cause, namely vipassana-bhavana, to perfection to be paccaya for the > realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. And some continue to have > wrong view and cling to practices that do not lead to the > realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma even after the Buddha had > become enlightened and manifested the dhamma and among those who > realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma and became the ariya-savaka, there > are more who had not attained jhana-citta with the principal > elements of jhana, than those who had (Samyuttanikaya Sagathavagga > Vangisasamyutta Pavaranasutta 745). (End quote.) > > Even after the most arduous practices could not get rid of kilesa, > only repress it (by developing kusala citta until the mind is so > steadfast in the aramana that the jhana citta arises, with complete > peace from kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha,) in other words, those > with even the nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana could not attain even > the lowest nana of vipassana, namely nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, the > first of the 16 leading to the state of the sotapanna. Still, for > those who had attained the jhana citta before vipassana attainments > would experience the same jhana levels as those without vipassana, > except that with nibbana as aramana, the magga citta and bala citta > would have the eight cetasika of the eightfold path arising at the > moment and the virati, all three at once together, (which as you > know only arise with the magga citta,) would perform the function or > completely eradicating the cetasika that is the kilesa completely > extinguished at that level (at the sotapanna level the vicikiccha > for example would be completely eradicated, no more even anusaya > left, in fact we could say there would be fewer than the normal 52 > left, and fewer as higher levels of attainments are reached, until > at the level of the Arahanta, all kilesa are completely eradicated, > never to arise again in samsara). Note: the levels of attainment do > not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had attained > only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana > but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has > the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we > remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, > so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and > akusala could probably do it). Also: since the vipassana > attainments completely eradicates respective levels of kilesa, the > jhana accompanied by nana is much more peaceful than those without > (tranquility exempt from kilesa momentarily vs. permanently) > > Then there are those (in fact the majority, since conditions > required for the samatha practice are so very difficult to fulfill) > who 'practice' only vipassana, but since the citta with nibbana or > even the aramana of the nana citta of the lowest level of vipassana > is so steadfast, and exempt from lobha, dosa and moha so completely > that it reaches the same level of jhana as the first level of jhana > citta without ever having to practice samatha. In other words even > the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana would be as steadfast and exempt for > kilesa as the first level of jhana automatically. At that moment > the vedana would be as you said, somanassa or upekkha, depending. > Which means although that level of nana is of peacefulness the > equivalent of the jhana citta, it no longer follows the rule of the > jhana citta because there is no samatha practice involved. By the > way she says that the somanassa comes from the joy of reaching that > level of knowledge. > > She and Khun Jeed are very glad that 'Nong C' is so steadfast in > studying the dhamma, by the way, and remember you and your group > very well, you have the reputation of serious students! > > Thank you for forcing me to learn about the jhana citta, something I > used to think has nothing to do with vipassana and therefore > uninteresting, before! Anumodana, > > Amara > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1260 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise Dear Sarah, Thanks for bringing up the subject of paticca samuppada: it gives me another glimpse of understanding. As it is, paticca samuppada can be used to explain series of citta arising now. It can be used to explain dispersed series of citta through last life, this life, and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain just a single citta at this moment. I never could understand how it can be used to explain a single citta, as the beginning of paticca samuppada wheel is Avijja, a cetasika not arising with any other citta except Akusalas. However, with Khun Amera's recent (and repeated, at my request: anumoddhana for her patience and viriya to answer the same question over an over again) explanation about accumulations, it becomes obvious that Avijja can be the cause of arising of current citta as the latent tendencies, Anusaya kilesa. Thanks again. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike, > > I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these comments if I'm > just > repeating. Sometimes I start a message, get called away and find it's > been > answered much better by someone else before i get back to it! > > The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as sediment before > those > bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many different > conditions. > One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) whereby citta and > cetasikas > would support each other or the 4 elements would 'prop' each other > up. > Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). Simultaneous with > one > reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for instance, in one > and the > same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and vinnana is for the > other 3 > khandhas a condition by way of sahajata. So it goes on. More > condtions help > explain why any given reality arises at any time. > > Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and it's rather like > asking > whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes! > > As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the accumulation at the > > present moment. In other words, the more precise the understanding > and > awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa vedana at this > moment, the > more the understanding understands its anattaness, its conditioned > nature. A > moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another moment of somanassa > vedana > by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Of course, as we > know, > only the Buddha can fully understand all the conditions of realities. > > However, we shouldn't underestimate the power of panna when it begins > to > grow...even intellectually in the beginning. > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about paticca > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite a > while, but > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as though > it were > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then clinging, > then > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas arising > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, ignorance > with > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too! > > I may just be repeating the obvious in this post, but there are some > good > intentions! > > Just one comment on the praise topic. It is the intention that's > important > as you say. However, it can be a little like the giving > thing...there's wise > and unwise giving. It's not always appropriate to give a kid a lolly > and so > on. I notice with my students that I tend to use more praise with > those > lacking in confidence and struggling and less with those who are > already > over confident and need a bit more 'dressing down'...Only the Buddha > gets it > right all the time and knows what is appropriate to say to whom > when....but > it's useful to consider what is really in the other's best > interests.... > Sometimes this may be keeping quiet! > > > If the list has brought back a smile to your face, it's serving its > purpose....the dhamma should make life easier and not harder! Don't > go > getting a chill when you step into that snow without yr clothes on! > > best wishes, > Sarah 1261 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these > comments if I'm just > repeating. Not a chance! > The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as > sediment before those > bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many > different conditions. > One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) > whereby citta and cetasikas > would support each other or the 4 elements would > 'prop' each other up. > Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). > Simultaneous with one > reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for > instance, in one and the > same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and > vinnana is for the other 3 > khandhas a condition by way of sahajata. This is very helpful. I've been confusing citta and cetasika--must read more! So, many cetasika can (and do) arise simultaneously with each citta, but only one citta can arise at a time (everyone, please excuse the elementary questions and bumbling about). > So it goes > on. More condtions help > explain why any given reality arises at any time. > > Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and > it's rather like asking > whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes! > > As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the > accumulation at the > present moment. In other words, the more precise the > understanding and > awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa > vedana at this moment, the > more the understanding understands its anattaness, > its conditioned nature. Understood... > A > moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another > moment of somanassa vedana > by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Interesting! > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with > Robert about paticca > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had > for quite a while, but > I'm not suggesting you do! I definitely do--or did until reading this post... > I used to read about the > cycle as though it were > an order of realities taking place. 'First > ignorance, then clinging, then > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to > cetasikas arising > together at the same time. I did not know this! > Feeling arises with every > citta, ignorance with > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most > too! I have always thought of them arising in order... > I may just be repeating the obvious in this post, > but there are some good > intentions! Your good intentions have paid off! This is all new to me--thank your! > Just one comment on the praise topic. It is the > intention that's important > as you say. However, it can be a little like the > giving thing...there's wise > and unwise giving. It's not always appropriate to > give a kid a lolly and so > on. I notice with my students that I tend to use > more praise with those > lacking in confidence and struggling and less with > those who are already > over confident and need a bit more 'dressing > down'...Only the Buddha gets it > right all the time and knows what is appropriate to > say to whom when....but > it's useful to consider what is really in the > other's best interests.... > Sometimes this may be keeping quiet! Yes, I can see that... Thank you VERY much, Sarah. This post has been most helpful! I haven't really had time to absorb all the implications yet, but will try to digest it all after work today. Saadhu, Ma'am! Anumodana, mn 1262 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 7:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear . > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about > paticca > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite > a while, but > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as > though it were > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then > clinging, then > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas > arising > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, > ignorance with > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too! > > Dear sarah, Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with some links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely co-nascent) other links are more difficult to fathom. The paticcasamupadda is sublime because it is not only referring to the present moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives. Robert. 1263 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 9:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Maggha citta Just a note on this Amara, According to my reading of the vipassana nanas: at the moment that vipassana nana occurs the path factors, five at least, are present and samadhi is indeed strong. However, it might not be at the strength of jhana but rather at the the level of upacara. The brief moments when nibbana occurs are at the strength of jhana. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > Dear Group, > > I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a > mistake, > or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence, > > Note: the levels of attainment do > > not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had > attained > > only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of > jhana > > but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person > who has > > the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in > fact we > > remember that this practice comes from long befor the > Buddha's > time, > > so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala > and > > akusala could probably do it). > > there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: > or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not > even a > sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from > long > befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the > difference > between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have > the > acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana. > > Sorry for my usual carelessness, > > Amara > > > 1264 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing > consciousness) to arise. These are the > cakkhupasasada > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention > or contact (I forget which) and light. Robert Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a query on the four conditions mentioned above. I have heard of there being 3 conditions namely- cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and phassa (= contact, a cetasika) but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other sense-doors also, eg for hearing? > Some people wonder about this because we are used to > scientific explanations that classify colour as part > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > tiniest > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > fundamental > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks > about visible object because this is just what > appears > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or > light or whatever. It is useful to know details of > this topic, as seeing arises so often. It has always intrigued me that although (in English, at least) we have specific terms for the objects which are experienced through the ear and nose doors (namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding term for the object experienced through the eye door. I wonder if this is because we are so caught up in the story of the experiences throught that doorway that we never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' object as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking level, distinguish between sound experienced through the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, the meaning of words spoken and the identity of the speaker), this seems much more difficult in the case of the visible object. Even if we are given the whole of the English language to describe the v-o, it's difficult to come up with any meaningful description. This highlights the degree of ignorance we have about v-o. Jonothan 1265 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada Dear Jon, Thanks for conditioning viriya to look these matters up! (chanda is predominant (adhipatti) for some kusala; viriya for others, or citta or vimamsa (investigation-panna cetasika); When it is chanda we are keen to do it. Sometimes it takes more effort -viriya. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing > > consciousness) to arise. These are the > > cakkhupasasada > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention > > or contact (I forget which) and light. > > > Robert > > Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a query > on the four conditions mentioned above. I have heard > of there being 3 conditions namely- > > cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) > vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and > phassa (= contact, a cetasika) > > but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other > sense-doors also, eg for hearing? Yes. For example, for taste to arise wetness is an aditional factor. Usually only three are given as these are the most important, the main ones to understand. > > > Some people wonder about this because we are used to > > scientific explanations that classify colour as part > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > > tiniest > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > > fundamental > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks > > about visible object because this is just what > > appears > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details of > > this topic, as seeing arises so often. > >JON wrote " It has always intrigued me that although (in English, > at least) we have specific terms for the objects > which are experienced through the ear and nose doors > (namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding term > for the object experienced through the eye door. I > wonder if this is because we are so caught up in the > story of the experiences throught that doorway that we > never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' object > as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking > level, distinguish between sound experienced through > the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or > unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, the > meaning of words spoken and the identity of the > speaker), this seems much more difficult in the case > of the visible object. Even if we are given the whole > of the English language to describe the v-o, it's > difficult to come up with any meaningful description. > > This highlights the degree of ignorance we have about > v-o. It is vannayatana (also called rupayatana) but it is colour,only colour, myriad different colours, thus different visible objects. (altough perhaps not exactly the same as scientific concepts about colour)Some people think visible object includes form and shape but these ideas come later during the mind-door processes. seeing is occuring now, vannayatana is arising directly - can we "see" it? Although it can be harder to understand in theory, for direct awareness it is not so much a matter of difficulty as of whether sati and panna arises. Dear jon; sorry, viriya just ran out while i was trying to find a reference or two. Wait awhile - perhaps the conditions for it will arise later Robert > > > > 1266 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path Hi Joe, Praising anyone doesn't come easy to me, but this is surely due to lack of kusala citta on my part. And it is probably with akusala citta(lobha) that I write this. I see in you, another source of panna, who like Robert, would knock me into my senses(I mention only Robert and not others because the few posts that I have sent have been primarily addressed to him). 'Good medicine' tastes bitter, so please don't hesitate to speak your mind. On my part, I welcome you to the group. Anumoddhana, Sukin. 1267 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear alex, Sorry for the delay in replying. If you can see this point(and you do) you are most worthy of praise. It took me years to make this connection. You (and mike, sukin, betty, Kom, o, leonardo) have the ability to be able to search out and see how different aspects of Dhamma relate. Such abilities can't be just conjured up; this is what they call pubekkata punnata (wholesome accumulations from past lives). --- A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and > the receiver > are worthy? I heard that it's something like: > > 1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy. > 2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is. > 3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not. > 4. Less than "so so": both are not. > let us examine this - it is not spelled out in the texts but by studying the patthana and knowing how conditions work now we can come to see that it must be like this. How does kamma work? We know that if a bad deed is done it will produce its result in the future. So if I kill someone now maybe next life I die in a car crash for example. Is kamma floating around in space or the universe waiting for the right time to strike and bring its unpleasant result? i had this sort of idea about kamma. The real answer is more sophisticated and relates to citta and cetasika. . We read in the texts of someone giving to a Buddha or pacceka-buddha and it conditions enormous benefits. Is it because of the object or the citta that gave? Well the object is arammana paccaya for citta. When we give to the Buddha or his disciples it is because we have some faith in them - thus some degree of understanding. If you met the Buddha and at the same time there was a another religious leader standing next to the Buddha and you gave to both with no feeling that the buddha was teaching better - you just gave, then that citta might have little wisdom and little sadda (an inferior type). When someone who has a lot of understanding gives the kusala is even higher and they may give an even better gift- the most they can afford. Thus it must come down to the degree of kusala. We don't run out and give a whole park to the beggar on the corner- but if it was the Buddha we might because we understand his great virtue. Some people give all their possesions to cult leaders but the result of this is very poor. This is because the type of citta that gave was not conditioned by any wisdom. Robert > > > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be > > > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the > > > (unintentional) delusion. > > > > >In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala > >cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for > >example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but > who > >teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your > teaching > >about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech > >(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. > It > >may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha > >(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same > teacher > >happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him > >"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may > be > >genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately > >after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have > felt > >almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi > >always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - > as > >do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana. > >When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life > we > >mean any intention that wants what is good for others and > >ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and > >ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha > dhammas > >as they arise directly. > >Robert > > 1268 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Robert, To just add.... as an example, the scenario where 1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha 2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta (lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both instances, so the merit regarding the size or worth wont matter) the question is who will get more merit, or is it whether equal. The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he knows and understands the act of 'giving' to the maximum level. so the right understanding of the kusala act will give more merit. rgds gayan 1269 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear gayan, Welcome to the group. You have the sort of analytical mind - (conditioned by pubekkata punnata )that fits well with the discussions here. I hadn't thought about the example you gave but now that I do I guess you must be right. Considering such illustrations is very helpful in understanding delicate matters. And understanding delicate matters helps us to see dhammas as they arise. Another aspect that is worth considering. Sometimes giving to one of low merit can be highly meritorious. The bodhisatta gave his body to a tiger. The tiger is not usually a recipient that can condition high results but in this case it conditioned the types of citta that support becoming a buddha. --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > To just add.... > > as an example, the scenario where > > 1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha > 2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta > > (lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both instances, so > the merit > regarding the size or worth wont matter) > the question is who will get more merit, or is it whether > equal. > > The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he knows and > understands the act > of 'giving' to the maximum level. > > so the right understanding of the kusala act will give more > merit. > > > > rgds > gayan > > > 1270 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada Dear Jonothan, I've just looked up the information in my last year Abhidhamma notes. Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness 1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye 2. ruparammana: color as object 3. aloka: light 4. manasikara: attention Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness 1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear 2. saddarammana: sound as object 3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear 4. manasikara: attention Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness 1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose 2. gandharammana: odor as object 3. vayodhatu: wind 4. manasikara: attention Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness 1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue 2. rasarammana: taste as object 3. apodhatu: water 4. manasikara: attention Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness 1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body 2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, heat/cold, straightness/crookedness as objects. 3. thaddhapathavi: earth 4. manasikara: attention Manodhatu: mind element 1. pancadvara: 5 doors 2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and tangibility 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) 4. manasikara: attention Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element 1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga 2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and dhamma 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) 4. manasikara: attention Regards, AT ================================================= >From: Jonothan Abbott >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST) > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing > > consciousness) to arise. These are the > > cakkhupasasada > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention > > or contact (I forget which) and light. > > >Robert > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a query >on the four conditions mentioned above. I have heard >of there being 3 conditions namely- > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and >phassa (= contact, a cetasika) > >but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other >sense-doors also, eg for hearing? > > > Some people wonder about this because we are used to > > scientific explanations that classify colour as part > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > > tiniest > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > > fundamental > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks > > about visible object because this is just what > > appears > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details of > > this topic, as seeing arises so often. > >It has always intrigued me that although (in English, >at least) we have specific terms for the objects >which are experienced through the ear and nose doors >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding term >for the object experienced through the eye door. I >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in the >story of the experiences throught that doorway that we >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' object >as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking >level, distinguish between sound experienced through >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, the >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the case >of the visible object. Even if we are given the whole >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's >difficult to come up with any meaningful description. > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have about >v-o. > >Jonothan > > > 1271 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 6:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Gayan Welcome to the list, and thanks for your contribution to this discussion. If you feel like teling us something about yourself, we would love to hear it! and Group We have recently been discussing, in relation to sila and samatha, how similar considerations apply there, too. When panna is being developed, other kinds of kusala can be of a much higher level than otherwise. Jonothan --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > To just add.... > > as an example, the scenario where > > 1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha > 2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta > > (lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both > instances, so the merit > regarding the size or worth wont matter) > the question is who will get more merit, or is it > whether equal. > > The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he > knows and understands the act > of 'giving' to the maximum level. > > so the right understanding of the kusala act will > give more merit. > > > > rgds > gayan > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1272 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 6:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada Alex Thanks for this. Very comprehensive. I have a reference to the 3-fold conditions which I will look up when I get home. I believe that haddayavatthu is usually translated as heartbase (although that does not mean it is physically located at the heart). BTW, the terms straightness and crookedness are new to me in this context - would this be the same as motion and pressure? Jonothan --- A T wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > I've just looked up the information in my last > year Abhidhamma notes. > > Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness > 1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye > 2. ruparammana: color as object > 3. aloka: light > 4. manasikara: attention > > Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness > 1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear > 2. saddarammana: sound as object > 3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear > 4. manasikara: attention > > Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness > 1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose > 2. gandharammana: odor as object > 3. vayodhatu: wind > 4. manasikara: attention > > Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness > 1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue > 2. rasarammana: taste as object > 3. apodhatu: water > 4. manasikara: attention > > Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness > 1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body > 2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, > heat/cold, > straightness/crookedness as objects. > 3. thaddhapathavi: earth > 4. manasikara: attention > > Manodhatu: mind element > 1. pancadvara: 5 doors > 2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and > tangibility > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > 4. manasikara: attention > > Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element > 1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga > 2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and > dhamma > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > 4. manasikara: attention > > Regards, > AT > ================================================= > >From: Jonothan Abbott > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] > colour/paticcasamupada > >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST) > > > > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > > > > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana > (seeing > > > consciousness) to arise. These are the > > > cakkhupasasada > > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa > (colour)attention > > > or contact (I forget which) and light. > > > > > >Robert > > > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a > query > >on the four conditions mentioned above. I have > heard > >of there being 3 conditions namely- > > > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) > >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and > >phassa (= contact, a cetasika) > > > >but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other > >sense-doors also, eg for hearing? > > > > > Some people wonder about this because we are > used to > > > scientific explanations that classify colour as > part > > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of > the > > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > > > tiniest > > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > > > fundamental > > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use > and I > > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually > talks > > > about visible object because this is just what > > > appears > > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour > or > > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details > of > > > this topic, as seeing arises so often. > > > >It has always intrigued me that although (in > English, > >at least) we have specific terms for the objects > >which are experienced through the ear and nose > doors > >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding > term > >for the object experienced through the eye door. I > >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in > the > >story of the experiences throught that doorway that > we > >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' > object > >as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking > >level, distinguish between sound experienced > through > >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or > >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, > the > >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the > >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the > case > >of the visible object. Even if we are given the > whole > >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's > >difficult to come up with any meaningful > description. > > > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have > about > >v-o. > > > >Jonothan > > > > > > > 1275 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit? Dear Sukin & friends, I'm breaking out in a sweat here because TWICE the last post zapped off on its own and a longish reply I wrote got lost....now much equanimity right now! Anway, I apologise, i'm really not sure if its me or the computer playing tricks! I was really only saying that I agreed with Robert: the rules is no rules! if you want to go and 'sit' or think it's useful, that's fine. If you wonder if you're in 2 boats or not listening to your other being..it's just thinking about different stories. Not Self. Sometimes we plan to do Y and end up doing X. Like right now, I was going to spend more time researching, but as I'm feeling a little frazzled, I'm going to close up and get into a hot bath instead! let us know how you get on and how the 'sitting' goes.... Sarah 1276 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit? Dear sarah, After Buddhaghosa finished his stupendous work the vissudhimagga devas hid it to test him. He promptly repeated the whole work - they hid it again. He repeated it again and then the devas returned the first two - all were the same. Now I am not saying the devas were testing you but if....? --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Sukin & friends, > > I'm breaking out in a sweat here because TWICE the last post > zapped off on > its own and a longish reply I wrote got lost....now much > equanimity right > now! Anway, I apologise, i'm really not sure if its me or the > computer > playing tricks! > > I was really only saying that I agreed with Robert: the rules > is no rules! > if you want to go and 'sit' or think it's useful, that's fine. > If you wonder > if you're in 2 boats or not listening to your other > being..it's just > thinking about different stories. Not Self. Sometimes we plan > to do Y and > end up doing X. Like right now, I was going to spend more time > researching, > but as I'm feeling a little frazzled, I'm going to close up > and get into a > hot bath instead! > > let us know how you get on and how the 'sitting' goes.... > > Sarah > > > > > 1277 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada >From: Jonothan Abbott >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:12:07 +0800 (CST) > >Alex > >Thanks for this. Very comprehensive. I have a >reference to the 3-fold conditions which I will look >up when I get home. > >I believe that haddayavatthu is usually translated as >heartbase (although that does not mean it is >physically located at the heart). Thank you. >BTW, the terms >straightness and crookedness are new to me in this >context - would this be the same as motion and >pressure? Yes, it is. It's because photthabbarammana is for tangibility (touch?). Our body can feel earth (hardness/softness), temparature (heat/cold), and wind (motion/pressure). The wind element can straighten or bend an object. It's the relationship between rupa and nama. Without this wind, we cannot move. Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness 1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body 2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, heat/cold, straightness/crookedness as objects. 3. thaddhapathavi: earth 4. manasikara: attention Anumodana, Alex 1278 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Gayan and Robert, The actions of an Arahant will not give result because his citta is kriya. I don't think that the Buddha will get any merit. In this example, Sariputta does not get merit either if at that time, he's already enlightened; otherwise, he will. Well, perhaps I'm wrong as usual anyway. Gayan, I did not know that you're also in this group. The internet makes the world very small. :-))) Regards, AT ======================================= >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and >fear) >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:26:38 +0600 > > > > >Dear Robert, > >To just add.... > >as an example, the scenario where > >1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha >2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta > >(lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both instances, so the merit >regarding the size or worth wont matter) >the question is who will get more merit, or is it whether equal. > >The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he knows and understands >the act >of 'giving' to the maximum level. > >so the right understanding of the kusala act will give more merit. > > > >rgds >gayan > > 1279 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Robert, Thank you for the explanation. So, it all depends on citta. Therefore, if the giver offers something to the Buddha without realizing that the recipient is worthy, it's not very helpful to the giver due to his lack of wisdom. I'm going to memorize the following written by you in the previous post: " ... miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana." because a way to recognize miccha-ditthi (or anything) is to know its character. Thank you for the praise. I think that you are the one who's worthy. Your posts are very valuable to me. Anumodana, AT ===================== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and >fear) >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:04:57 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear alex, >Sorry for the delay in replying. If you can see this point(and >you do) you are most worthy of praise. It took me years to make >this connection. You (and mike, sukin, betty, Kom, o, leonardo) >have the ability to be able to search out and see how different >aspects of Dhamma relate. Such abilities can't be just conjured >up; this is what they call pubekkata punnata (wholesome >accumulations from past lives). >--- A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > > Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and > > the receiver > > are worthy? I heard that it's something like: > > > > 1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy. > > 2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is. > > 3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not. > > 4. Less than "so so": both are not. > > > > >let us examine this - it is not spelled out in the texts but by >studying the patthana and knowing how conditions work now we can >come to see that it must be like this. >How does kamma work? We know that if a bad deed is done it will >produce its result in the future. So if I kill someone now maybe >next life I die in a car crash for example. Is kamma floating >around in space or the universe waiting for the right time to >strike and bring its unpleasant result? i had this sort of idea >about kamma. The real answer is more sophisticated and relates >to citta and cetasika. >. > >We read in the texts of someone giving to a Buddha or >pacceka-buddha and it conditions enormous benefits. Is it >because of the object or the citta that gave? Well the object is >arammana paccaya for citta. When we give to the Buddha or his >disciples it is because we have some faith in them - thus some >degree of understanding. If you met the Buddha and at the same >time there was a another religious leader standing next to the >Buddha and you gave to both with no feeling that the buddha was >teaching better - you just gave, then that citta might have >little wisdom and little sadda (an inferior type). >When someone who has a lot of understanding gives the kusala is >even higher and they may give an even better gift- the most they >can afford. > Thus it must come down to the degree of kusala. We don't run >out and give a whole park to the beggar on the corner- but if it >was the Buddha we might because we understand his great virtue. >Some people give all their possesions to cult leaders but the >result of this is very poor. This is because the type of citta >that gave was not conditioned by any wisdom. > >Robert > > > > > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be > > > > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the > > > > (unintentional) delusion. > > > > > > >In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala > > >cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for > > >example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but > > who > > >teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your > > teaching > > >about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech > > >(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. > > It > > >may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha > > >(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same > > teacher > > >happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him > > >"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may > > be > > >genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately > > >after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have > > felt > > >almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi > > >always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - > > as > > >do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana. > > >When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life > > we > > >mean any intention that wants what is good for others and > > >ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and > > >ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha > > dhammas > > >as they arise directly. > > >Robert > > > 1280 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:11am Subject: to 'sit' or not to 'sit'? Dear Sukin, sorry, the last one just zapped off on its own...not only yours that do that, Robert! I was thinking back to this post of yours, Sukin, and I fully agree with what Robert replied....No rules, O.K! If you feel like 'sitting', fine! If you feel like karaoke, fine! No one is saying there can't be understanding while 'sitting'. Like Robert suggested, you may feel less bothered about it as understanding grows. Sometimes we may decide to do X and just when we're about to start, end up doing Y. It just depends on conditions again. We think WE need to make decisions, but these are conditioned too! Robert wrote a good paragraph about how whether things go right or wrong doesn't depend on 'my' decisions. Realities and results are very complex and wondering about whether your 'sitting' will hinder the development of understanding doesn't help. Just know it as another moment of thinking and leave it to conditions as to whether you 'sit' or not at any given time. I suspect that the more understanding there is of anatta, the less inclined you'll be to 'sit' for your meditation...but not by forcing a change of lifestyle. The same does not apply to karaoke because there is no idea of it helping one's practice! Let us know how it goes. If you have the idea of putting your feet in two boats, it's just that: an idea! When there is the idea of listening to another aspect of your 'being', again it's just another story or idea! Best wishes, Sarah Dear Robert, >I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'. >Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet >in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be >actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The >activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'. >Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'? >Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna >to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of >a vague understanding and seeming logical inference? > >Sukin. >PS: I liked your; > > > Each moment, right now, is a new life - > > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional > > death happens it will be just like this. > >'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy >to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as >opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much >taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks. > 1281 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 4:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dukkha Etymology --- Joe Cummings wrote: > The wheel continues to roll unevenly, > an image which I'm told > conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (I liked this image sent it off to palitrans for review) Joe, here's the first response from Sean Whittle at palitrans (thought everyone might find this interesting): (I have sent this also to the Dhamma-list because I thought you'd find it interesting.) > "The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told > conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha" > > Make sense? Thanks in advance mn, This makes sense to a certain degree and does include a matter of interpretation. Here is the background to this which includes what I think to be the derivation. This is of course up to investigation. First to explore this analogy we have to explore sukha, the earlier of the two antonyms. In the .rgveda the word sukha, which means lit. 'having a good axle hole' is used in the meaning of running swiftly or easily and is said of carriages or chariots and further has the meaning of easy. This is the prefix 'su' which means good, well, thoroughly, happily, and the word kha which means 'the hole in the center of a wheel'. By the time of the Buddha this word took on the full meaning of 'pleasant, agreeable, happy, prosperous, etc. The word dukkha(skt: du.hkha) is never(as far as I know) used in the vedas and came into common use around the time of the Buddha and had already been displaced from the original meaning of kha= 'the hole in the center of a wheel'. But the word could have been used in this sense but not recorded. The word dukkha is derived from sukha and equals du+kha. 'Du' conveying the sense of apart or away from and meaning bad, difficult, etc. and kha(as before). Its meaning is difficult, uneasy, uncomfortable, unpleasant; pain, difficulty, stress, etc. This certainly could have originally been used in the sense of the chariot with a bad axle hole. My view is that sukha had the original meaning and by the time of the common usage of dukkha, in the sense that we understand it, it was derived from sukha. The wheel analogy is a valid one and does tie in with the greater meaning of the wheel within Buddhism. There is also a derivation of su+kha, and du+kha derived from kha equaling empty space, sky, air, etc., hence 'easy space' and 'difficult space'. This is the view of ancient pali grammarians and is also valid and may have been the meaning of kha at the time of the Buddha. I see both as valid. Hope this helps, Sean 1282 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 9:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thank you for the explanation. So, it all depends on > citta. Therefore, > if the giver offers something to the Buddha without realizing > that the > recipient is worthy, it's not very helpful to the giver due to > his lack of > wisdom. Yes, I can't see how it can be any other way. There are complex ways though that citta is conditioned - as I said arammana paccaya (object condition) is alawys one condition. Someone gives to the Buddha and might not be aware that they have any special citta but that object might still have conditioned extra sadda (or maybe not) Also to see a Buddha is conditioned by kammapaccaya and vipakapaccaya of an unusually high kusala degree - when one then reponds well by giving it must be a very good type of kamma. I had to add all this just to make it clear how complicated these things are - and how complex is each moment of citta. None of it is self. A higher type of kusala than even giving to the buddha is understanding that this moment is dhamma, anatta, conditioned phenomenon, uncontrollable, alien. > Robert 1283 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight Dear MN, Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. The joy that is felt is the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko) satipatthana, and then understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when there is sati, if the conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes in my life and relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) have been detected as well, and this too is a cause for joy. But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may paraphrase, how does one tell the difference between that type of joy and that which is lobha? Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is understood, again, if the conditions are ripe for it to arise. Have been slowly going through the mound of e-mails from the group since returning from a holiday in France, only 50 to go and 10 more come each day! With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight > > wrote: > > > Hard work for all of us; reading, > > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition > > kusala citta? > > It sure does--I THINK. Lately, I've become a little > suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around > reflections on dhamma. Despite these reservations, > however, I've been walking around smiling like an > idiot ever since I found this group. And, whether > these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle > akusala, I thank you all for them just the same! > > mn > 1284 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 11:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada --- A T wrote: > > >BTW, the terms > >straightness and crookedness are new to me in this > >context - would this be the same as motion and > >pressure? > > Yes, it is. It's because photthabbarammana is > for tangibility (touch?). > Our body can feel earth (hardness/softness), > temparature (heat/cold), and > wind (motion/pressure). The wind element can > straighten or bend an object. > It's the relationship between rupa and nama. > Without this wind, we cannot > move. Alex Thank you for this explanation. It's always useful to have something explained from a different angle. Helps break down stubborn ideas! Jonothan 1285 From: Joe Cummings Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 1:04pm Subject: time & path Hi Sarah >I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really appreciate >all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where people >are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and >experience for sure! Here comes the axe ... >Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same >Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language >school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who now >lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was supporting >most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have occasional >news of many of them. Was one of the monks Phra Alan by chance? Also, do you know of a way to contact Nina? I passed through Nakhon Phanom just a few weeks ago. >Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture and >teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope >that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the role >of architecture in preserving dhamma with you! I would love to meet Pinna. >As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying with >Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married >since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong. Sathu ... >We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and >friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet you >and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin >and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list group >at the Shangrila where we'll be staying. I might be in Bangkok that second interval and would love to meet up. I'm flying to London tomorrow and will be back in Thailand from 5 Nov., so will check back then. metta, Joe 1286 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 0:48pm Subject: Thanks Hi Jonathan. Thank You for Welcoming me to the group!!! ( Oops , beep..beep a maana was detected inside - for being among knowledgable people) Robert invited me to this group and I am indebted to him. About me ( in this bhava) :o) my name is Gayan Karunaratne I live in Sri Lanka Was born there in 1974. I was born a buddhist, but as you know, it 'clicked' quite lately for me ( the true worth of what buddha said). Of course we have been brothers, sisters, parents,relations for endless number of times!!! I like to know about your'selves' too( no need to flood the group- send it to my address) :o) I like to mention just one gathaa that the Perfect One said( Otherwise this post will be quite useless) "Kim kaira udapaanena Aapace sabbada siyum?, thanhaaya mulatho cetwa kissa pariyesanam chare?" When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells? When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana), who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ? (because every satisfaction is there) so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think that it is... Rgds gayan 1287 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 0:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Axtran, Hi :o) yes world is small indeed( without the proliferations!) to that example given earlier,.. (i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the 'Link' is not there.(so they will not give result to anything) Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., and sicknesses come to 'them...' Its like when arahants 'eat' food .. "their" bodies will get nutrients. rgds gayan "A T" on 10/19/2000 02:06:29 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Gayan and Robert, The actions of an Arahant will not give result because his citta is kriya. I don't think that the Buddha will get any merit. In this example, Sariputta does not get merit either if at that time, he's already enlightened; otherwise, he will. Well, perhaps I'm wrong as usual anyway. Gayan, I did not know that you're also in this group. The internet makes the world very small. :-))) Regards, AT 1288 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 2:42pm Subject: Re: Maggha citta > According to my reading of the vipassana nanas: at the moment > that vipassana nana occurs the path factors, five at least, are > present and samadhi is indeed strong. However, it might not be > at the strength of jhana but rather at the the level of upacara. > The brief moments when nibbana occurs are at the strength of > jhana. > Robert > --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a > > mistake, > > or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence, > > > > Note: the levels of attainment do > > > not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had > > attained > > > only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of > > jhana > > > but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person > > who has > > > the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in > > fact we > > > remember that this practice comes from long befor the > > Buddha's > > time, > > > so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala > > and > > > akusala could probably do it). > > > > there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: > > or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not > > even a > > sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from > > long > > befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the > > difference > > between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have > > the > > acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana. Dear Robert, I'm sure you are right, but would love to see some of your reference material if you have time, I have never been much interested in samatha and would like to learn. Thanks in advance, Amara 1289 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:02pm Subject: Re: Thanks > "Kim kaira udapaanena > Aapace sabbada siyum?, > thanhaaya mulatho cetwa > kissa pariyesanam chare?" > > When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells? > When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana), > who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ? > (because every satisfaction is there) > > > so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think that it is... Hi and welcome from me too, This is so beautiful, thanks for quoting it for us! But perhaps the void we speak about is the ultimate absence of lobha, dosa and moha, the perfect peace beyond our imagination? Because when we think of satisfaction we think of the gratification through the six dvara, none of us can have an idea of the 'every satisfaction' that 'is there' without the six dvara could be like! Sounds sublime anyway, Thanks for sharing, Amara 1290 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Maggha citta Dear Amara, I can't remember where I saw references to this. it might not be explained in so many words. We can see that it is like this (probably) from considering and seeing how the path works. For panna to understand the brief moments - so, so brief- it has to have assistance from other cetasikas- samadhi, sati, viriya, vitaka. They help panna 'lock on' (that might be a radical way to put it) and see dhammas as they are, for a few processes, very short. It must be very vivid- vipassana nana that is. Nibbana is said to be experienced with the force of jhana. (i think atthasalini mentions this) However as the path factors aren't fully developed in vipassana nana I reasoned that they would be probably at the level of upacara (still strong samadhi) but less than jhana. Some people read about such matters and think that if they can make samadhi strong, panna will arise at the same time or after or something. But these factors are not under control of anyone. It is panna that should be developed and then the other factors follow. Trying to do it the other way around it is so easy to go wrong. Imitation awareness is likely to arise. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > According to my reading of the vipassana nanas: at the > moment > > that vipassana nana occurs the path factors, five at least, > are > > present and samadhi is indeed strong. However, it might not > be > > at the strength of jhana but rather at the the level of > upacara. > > The brief moments when nibbana occurs are at the strength of > > jhana. > > Robert > > --- > Dear Robert, > > I'm sure you are right, but would love to see some of your > reference > material if you have time, I have never been much interested > in > samatha and would like to learn. > > Thanks in advance, > > Amara > > 1291 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:12pm Subject: Re: time & path > I might be in Bangkok that second interval and would love to meet up. I'm > flying to London tomorrow and will be back in Thailand from 5 Nov., so will > check back then. > > metta, Joe Dear Joe, Bon voyage and see you back in Bangkok soon! Drop us a line from London if you have time, Amara 1292 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks Hi amara, yes of course! you said.. 'satisfaction we can think of'-- the thing is ...as buddha said every conditioned thing is 'unsatisfactory' so whatever we think of..its unsatisfactory so nibbana- the unconditioned - is 'The' satisfactory thing! :o) rgds gayan 1293 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit'? Dear Sarah, Thanks for reminding me not to get stuck in scripts and stories. As a person who doesn't wait for praise to come from outside but happily does it to himself, I've still got a lot of accumulations to sift through. I can imagine that attending to moment to moment realities will generate best course of action to be taken. But just as gold is so hard to find in the midst of so much sand, I only hope that I can stick with this group long enough to find enough gold, and then not to think about staying or leaving it....See how I like to create stories? Thanks again. My image of you is that of a wise and gentle person (another story? But it must have a good degree of truth, right?). Anumoddhana, Sukin. Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > sorry, the last one just zapped off on its own...not only yours that do > that, Robert! > > I was thinking back to this post of yours, Sukin, and I fully agree with > what Robert replied....No rules, O.K! > > If you feel like 'sitting', fine! If you feel like karaoke, fine! No one is > saying there can't be understanding while 'sitting'. Like Robert suggested, > you may feel less bothered about it as understanding grows. Sometimes we > may decide to do X and just when we're about to start, end up doing Y. It > just depends on conditions again. We think WE need to make decisions, but > these are conditioned too! Robert wrote a good paragraph about how whether > things go right or wrong doesn't depend on 'my' decisions. > > Realities and results are very complex and wondering about whether your > 'sitting' will hinder the development of understanding doesn't help. Just > know it as another moment of thinking and leave it to conditions as to > whether you 'sit' or not at any given time. I suspect that the more > understanding there is of anatta, the less inclined you'll be to 'sit' for > your meditation...but not by forcing a change of lifestyle. The same does > not apply to karaoke because there is no idea of it helping one's practice! > > Let us know how it goes. If you have the idea of putting your feet in two > boats, it's just that: an idea! When there is the idea of listening to > another aspect of your 'being', again it's just another story or idea! > > Best wishes, > Sarah > > Dear Robert, > >I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'. > >Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet > >in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be > >actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The > >activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'. > >Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'? > >Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna > >to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of > >a vague understanding and seeming logical inference? > > > >Sukin. > >PS: I liked your; > > > > > Each moment, right now, is a new life - > > > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional > > > death happens it will be just like this. > > > >'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy > >to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as > >opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much > >taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks. > > > 1294 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 7:14pm Subject: Re: quiet tonight --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear MN, > Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. The joy that is felt is > the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko) satipatthana, and then > understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when there is sati, if the > conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes in my life and > relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) have been detected as > well, and this too is a cause for joy. > > But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may paraphrase, how does > one tell the difference between that type of joy and that which is lobha? > Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is understood, again, if the > conditions are ripe for it to arise. > Dear Betty, I'm so happy to see your post on the dhamma group. Only few months ago, when we've met in the Bay Area. I notice that your poit of veiw has changed since then. (correct me if I'm wrong)I remember you comment a lot on sitting meditation. That's reinforce what you've said'panna wnows when it arises" Fortunatly, we've met the right teacher (tarn Ajarn Sujin) we all must have accumulated kussala kamma in our past. Thanks to everyone's knowledge, and sharing in dhamma. With metta, O 1295 From: A T Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 9:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >A higher type of kusala than even giving to the buddha is >understanding that this moment is dhamma, anatta, conditioned >phenomenon, uncontrollable, alien. Sadhu... Alex 1296 From: A T Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and >fear) >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:11:38 +0600 > >to that example given earlier,.. >(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the 'Link' is not >there.(so >they will not give result to anything) >Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., and >sicknesses >come to 'them...' Hi Gayan, I understand that whatever the Arahant goes through such as aging, or getting sick is due to the left over vipaka that He created before attaining Arahantship. I may be wrong again. Perhaps Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, ... can help. :-))) >Its like when arahants 'eat' food .. "their" bodies will get nutrients. Regards, Alex 1297 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear alex, As you said the arahant no longer has kusala or akusala cittas - they have kiriya. Thus they do not make any new kamma. Can what they do after they become arahants give any merit in the short time before parinibbana : if so of what type - if not why not? What are the correct terms? This is definitely answered in the texts- somewhere- I remember reading it (if only I could remember the conclusion).I am sure Kom or Amara will have the full details for us sooner or later. Robert --- A T wrote: > > > > >From: protectID > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, > hatred ,and > >fear) > >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:11:38 +0600 > > > >to that example given earlier,.. > >(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the > 'Link' is not > >there.(so > >they will not give result to anything) > >Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., > and > >sicknesses > >come to 'them...' > > Hi Gayan, > > I understand that whatever the Arahant goes through such as > aging, or > getting sick is due to the left over vipaka that He created > before attaining > Arahantship. > > I may be wrong again. Perhaps Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, > Amara, ... can > help. :-))) > > >Its like when arahants 'eat' food .. "their" bodies will get > nutrients. > > Regards, > Alex > > 1298 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 0:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path Hello, Joe, Nina is a friend of mine who had given me Achaan Sujin's name several years ago. But I guess at that time I was not yet ready to study with her. I'm sure she'd like to hear from you and would not mind me giving you her address: Nina and Charoen Wimuttikosol PO Box 13, Muang, Nakorn Phanom 48000 (street address:) 38 Moo 2, Bahn Nok Hauk, Wern Prabat, Tha Uthen, Nakorn Phanom 48000 ph: 01-220-3055, 01-670-4955 e-mail: protectID (she shares this with another and cannot always get to the computer terminal to answer mail. Therefore, she will not be able to carry on with the group's correspondence). Hope you can get in touch with her. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Cummings Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 12:04 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path > Hi Sarah > > >I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really appreciate > >all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where people > >are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and > >experience for sure! > > Here comes the axe ... > > >Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same > >Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language > >school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who now > >lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was supporting > >most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have occasional > >news of many of them. > > Was one of the monks Phra Alan by chance? Also, do you know of a way to > contact Nina? I passed through Nakhon Phanom just a few weeks ago. > > >Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture and > >teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope > >that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the role > >of architecture in preserving dhamma with you! > > I would love to meet Pinna. > > >As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying with > >Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married > >since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong. > > Sathu ... > > >We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and > >friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet you > >and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin > >and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list group > >at the Shangrila where we'll be staying. > > > I might be in Bangkok that second interval and would love to meet up. I'm > flying to London tomorrow and will be back in Thailand from 5 Nov., so will > check back then. > > metta, Joe > > > > > > > 1299 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear MN, > Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. > The joy that is felt is > the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko) ...yes, ehipassiko--just the thought conditions the arising of a smile... > satipatthana, and then > understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when > there is sati, if the > conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes > in my life and > relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) > have been detected as > well, and this too is a cause for joy. ...same here! > But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may > paraphrase, how does > one tell the difference between that type of joy and > that which is lobha? I know! Hard to wisely attend to sukkhavedana arising from 'subtle lobha'... > Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is > understood, again, if the > conditions are ripe for it to arise. Yes. A LOT of mudita for whatever kamma conditioned the coming together of this group has also been arising of late... > Have been slowly going through the mound of e-mails > from the group since > returning from a holiday in France, only 50 to go > and 10 more come each day! Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris nightclub? Just joking! So nice to meet you, Betty (my mother's name is also Betty). I look forward to doing so someday in person. mn 1300 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 9:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight Dear MN, Great to meet you too. If you are coming to Bkk with the group in December, then we will all get to meet then. France was loads of lobha, especially the chateaux and the food, but lots of dhosa when trying to get a taxi in Paris. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID --- From: m. nease Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight > > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > wrote: > > Dear MN, > > Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. > > The joy that is felt is > > the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko) > > ...yes, ehipassiko--just the thought conditions the > arising of a smile... > > > satipatthana, and then > > understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when > > there is sati, if the > > conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes > > in my life and > > relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) > > have been detected as > > well, and this too is a cause for joy. > > ...same here! > > > But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may > > paraphrase, how does > > one tell the difference between that type of joy and > > that which is lobha? > > I know! Hard to wisely attend to sukkhavedana arising > from 'subtle lobha'... > > > Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is > > understood, again, if the > > conditions are ripe for it to arise. > > Yes. A LOT of mudita for whatever kamma conditioned > the coming together of this group has also been > arising of late... > > > Have been slowly going through the mound of e-mails > > from the group since > > returning from a holiday in France, only 50 to go > > and 10 more come each day! > > Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris > nightclub? Just joking! > > So nice to meet you, Betty (my mother's name is also > Betty). I look forward to doing so someday in person. > > mn > > 1301 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 2:53pm Subject: jataka where the bodhisatta stole Dear Leonardo, I just got a note from Nina van gorkom about the example I gave you where the bodhisatta stole (I sent her some of our letters as her feedback is always accurate). She gave the name of the jataka-it is the Silavimamsa birth tale (No290). She comments that the reason he stole was to see whether people respected his lineage etc or because of sila. She notes that when we look at the context above all it "was the occasion to praise sila". My interpretation gives a different twist to this. Please take note. Robert 1302 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks Dear Gayan, yes, it's gret to have you hear. So we both visited Sri lanka for the first time in this life in the same year.... Funnily (?) I've never felt so 'at home' on arrival in any country before or since. maybe past lives, maybe just lobha and thinking..... I THINK you're our first Sri lankan in the group, certainly our first contributing Sri Lankan. Khun sujin keeps planning another trip there and then there's another outbreak of violence.... I am appreciating your posts like the good reminder about tanha (lobha) below. Keep them up! Sarah > > > >Hi Jonathan. > >Thank You for Welcoming me to the group!!! >( Oops , beep..beep a maana was detected inside - for being among >knowledgable >people) > >Robert invited me to this group and I am indebted to him. > >About me ( in this bhava) :o) > >my name is Gayan Karunaratne >I live in Sri Lanka >Was born there in 1974. >I was born a buddhist, but as you know, it 'clicked' quite lately for me ( >the >true worth of what buddha said). > >Of course we have been brothers, sisters, parents,relations for endless >number >of times!!! > >I like to know about your'selves' too( no need to flood the group- send it >to my > address) :o) > >I like to mention just one gathaa that the Perfect One said( Otherwise >this >post will be quite useless) > >"Kim kaira udapaanena >Aapace sabbada siyum?, >thanhaaya mulatho cetwa >kissa pariyesanam chare?" > >When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells? >When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana), > who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ? >(because every satisfaction is there) > > >so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think that it >is... > > > > >Rgds > >gayan > > > > > 1304 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:36am Subject: devas testing Dear Robert, I really appreciated your very prompt response and was flattered to share a paragraph with Buddhaghosa..... Unfortunately 'my' viriya and chanda have quite a lot of catching up to do...! I certainly went to bed a lot happier (!?) reflecting that the devas might be interested enough to test me rather than refelecting, as I had been, about how the computer was a real pain at times! Sarah I've also decided (for now) that it's not smart for me to post when I'm too tired! > >Dear sarah, >After Buddhaghosa finished his stupendous work the vissudhimagga >devas hid it to test him. He promptly repeated the whole work - >they hid it again. He repeated it again and then the devas >returned the first two - all were the same. Now I am not saying >the devas were testing you but if....? 1305 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada Dear Jonothan, I just translated into English what my teacher told us in Vietnamese. He just left for Burma last Sunday! I'm going to ask another teacher of mine, the one who knows Achaan Sujin, about the exact meaning of the term later. Anumodana, Alex ================== >From: Jonothan Abbott >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:12:07 +0800 (CST) > >Alex > >Thanks for this. Very comprehensive. I have a >reference to the 3-fold conditions which I will look >up when I get home. > >I believe that haddayavatthu is usually translated as >heartbase (although that does not mean it is >physically located at the heart). BTW, the terms >straightness and crookedness are new to me in this >context - would this be the same as motion and >pressure? > >Jonothan > > >--- A T wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > > > I've just looked up the information in my last > > year Abhidhamma notes. > > > > Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness > > 1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye > > 2. ruparammana: color as object > > 3. aloka: light > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness > > 1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear > > 2. saddarammana: sound as object > > 3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness > > 1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose > > 2. gandharammana: odor as object > > 3. vayodhatu: wind > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness > > 1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue > > 2. rasarammana: taste as object > > 3. apodhatu: water > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness > > 1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body > > 2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, > > heat/cold, > > straightness/crookedness as objects. > > 3. thaddhapathavi: earth > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Manodhatu: mind element > > 1. pancadvara: 5 doors > > 2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and > > tangibility > > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element > > 1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga > > 2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and > > dhamma > > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Regards, > > AT > > ================================================= > > >From: Jonothan Abbott > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] > > colour/paticcasamupada > > >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST) > > > > > > > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana > > (seeing > > > > consciousness) to arise. These are the > > > > cakkhupasasada > > > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa > > (colour)attention > > > > or contact (I forget which) and light. > > > > > > > > >Robert > > > > > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a > > query > > >on the four conditions mentioned above. I have > > heard > > >of there being 3 conditions namely- > > > > > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) > > >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and > > >phassa (= contact, a cetasika) > > > > > >but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other > > >sense-doors also, eg for hearing? > > > > > > > Some people wonder about this because we are > > used to > > > > scientific explanations that classify colour as > > part > > > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of > > the > > > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > > > > tiniest > > > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > > > > fundamental > > > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use > > and I > > > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually > > talks > > > > about visible object because this is just what > > > > appears > > > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour > > or > > > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details > > of > > > > this topic, as seeing arises so often. > > > > > >It has always intrigued me that although (in > > English, > > >at least) we have specific terms for the objects > > >which are experienced through the ear and nose > > doors > > >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding > > term > > >for the object experienced through the eye door. I > > >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in > > the > > >story of the experiences throught that doorway that > > we > > >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' > > object > > >as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking > > >level, distinguish between sound experienced > > through > > >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or > > >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, > > the > > >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the > > >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the > > case > > >of the visible object. Even if we are given the > > whole > > >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's > > >difficult to come up with any meaningful > > description. > > > > > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have > > about > > >v-o. > > > > > >Jonothan > > > 1306 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 10:37pm Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) > >to that example given earlier,.. > >(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the 'Link' is not > >there.(so > >they will not give result to anything) > >Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., and > >sicknesses > >come to 'them...' > > Hi Gayan, > > I understand that whatever the Arahant goes through such as aging, or > getting sick is due to the left over vipaka that He created before attaining > Arahantship. > > I may be wrong again. Perhaps Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, ... can > help. :-))) Dear Alex, and friends, According to Khun Sujin during today's discussion, the arahanta has eradicated all kilesa, so to continue the analogy (with my witch's brew luckily coincidental with the holiday spirit of Halloween), panna has grown so strong that it expulses all bad cetasika from the cauldron so that what remains are the good ones and the operational or automatic ones. From then on with no self to feed the gas pellets with kusala and akusala, since even mana is gone, all actions turn to kiriya which replace the kusala and akusala, and therefore all their cetana is fruitless, no matter how splendid the intention or volition. That is why where normally the last citta before the cuti citta would be kusala or akusala, which brings results as the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, for the arahanta the last citta before cutti would be kiriya that brings no results whatever. The citta has stopped passing on the contents of the pot to the next one. In the meantime, before the parinibbana occurs, there would be kiriya with sobhana or asobhana cetasika (but of course no more akusala possible) arising concurrently. Khun Sujin asked for example whether the arahanta would need panna to bathe as opposed to teaching the dhamma. (What a wonderful life it must be never to worry if what one does could be wrong, aside from the fact that one is freed from the senseless samsara forever! And most importantly from one's 'self'!!) So you were perfectly right, Alex, anumodana! =^_^= Amara 1307 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 10:55pm Subject: more on sampajanna Dear group, I was reading over the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship). Thought you might like to hear some passages related to our recent discussion. JUst to remind: there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear comprehension)1puposefulness, 2suitabilty, 3resort, and 4non-delusion. We have talked about the 4th one - amoha, panna, non-delusion. The third one is also interesting - it has one meaning as "clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for example)" but also comprehending the resort of ones meditation subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their meditation subject in mind." A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels of meaning. Two- a definite distinction made between those who are developing samattha and those who are developing only vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements or bases - paramattha dhammas). The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead' arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving more and more details about mind processes, all to show that there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned phenomena. This is comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. Does hearing this condition any understanding now? Do you still think that "you" chose to look at the email? Or does it help you to see that conditioned by the thought (which was itself conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed the hand to push the correct buttons? If it does condition understanding then is it some direct understanding of the dhammas that are arising now, or is it it at the level of thinking? Never mind - both types are needed - they support each other. On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it carefully". Robert 1308 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- amara chay wrote: > Dear amara, > I must say it is damned convenient having you in Bangkok to be able to tell us about discussions with Khun Sujin. I have never thought much about these aspects of Dhamma before and find them most interesting. Thanks Robert > According to Khun Sujin during today's discussion, the > arahanta has > eradicated all kilesa, so to continue the analogy (with my > witch's > brew luckily coincidental with the holiday spirit of > Halloween), > panna has grown so strong that it expulses all bad cetasika > from the > cauldron so that what remains are the good ones and the > operational > or automatic ones. From then on with no self to feed the gas > pellets with kusala and akusala, since even mana is gone, all > actions turn to kiriya which replace the kusala and akusala, > and > therefore all their cetana is fruitless, no matter how > splendid the > intention or volition. That is why where normally the last > citta > before the cuti citta would be kusala or akusala, which brings > > results as the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, for the > arahanta the last citta before cutti would be kiriya that > brings no > results whatever. The citta has stopped passing on the > contents of > the pot to the next one. In the meantime, before the > parinibbana > occurs, there would be kiriya with sobhana or asobhana > cetasika > (but of course no more akusala possible) arising concurrently. > Khun > Sujin asked for example whether the arahanta would need panna > to > bathe as opposed to teaching the dhamma. > > (What a wonderful life it must be never to worry if what one > does > could be wrong, aside from the fact that one is freed from the > > senseless samsara forever! And most importantly from one's > 'self'!!) > > So you were perfectly right, Alex, anumodana! > =^_^= > Amara > > 1309 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:14pm Subject: Re: quiet tonight > Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris > nightclub? Just joking! Dear Mike, Actually it wasn't my choice at the time, I was taking some friends around Paris and at the end of the day they decided to have dinner at the Lido and take in a show, I wasn't about to sit around at the hotel dining alone, my friends worrying about me and spoiling their fun (and I wasn't doing anything dishonest). But it really does show that with right understanding anything can be studied, can't it? By the way I hope Betty will write about Khun Sujin's definition and explanation of the 4 sampajanna for us, Amara 1310 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) > > I must say it is damned convenient having you in Bangkok to be > able to tell us about discussions with Khun Sujin. I have never > thought much about these aspects of Dhamma before and find them > most interesting. Dear Robert, Beats studying alone, doesn't it, which is also why this group is so great, except that in BKK there is also Khun Sujin, so you must visit us more often! Is there any chance you'd change your mind about Cambodia? Amara 1311 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 0:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight Dear Friends in Dhamma, Amara has asked me to explain what Achaan Sujin taught us concerning Sampajanna (n with Spanish tilde on top). Her translations of the terms in English are different from the ones usually found in most dhamma books and Pali dictionaries, but her explanation greatly clarified the meaning and intent of sampajanna. The following explanation is merely an intellectual understanding. It is hoped that when the conditions are right, that each of the 4 sampajanna will arise, leading to a clear understanding of this process for me (sorry one has to use that self word). The term means clear comprehension and it is one of the steps, so to speak, of satipatthana. When sati arises, it will then lead to Sampajanna. This in turn becomes the condition for panna to arise. There are 4 types or levels of sampajanna: 1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance: clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think deeply, about whatever question arises. 2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would understand whether one is ready to understand or not. 3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear comprehension of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door processes. 4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At this point, panna would then arise. Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in the process of satipatthana. Please forgive me if my understanding is a bit shaky and help correct any misunderstanding I may have of this. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:14 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight > > > > Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris > > nightclub? Just joking! > > > Dear Mike, > > Actually it wasn't my choice at the time, I was taking some friends > around Paris and at the end of the day they decided to have dinner > at the Lido and take in a show, I wasn't about to sit around at > the hotel dining alone, my friends worrying about me and spoiling > their fun (and I wasn't doing anything dishonest). But it really > does show that with right understanding anything can be studied, > can't it? By the way I hope Betty will write about Khun Sujin's > definition and explanation of the 4 sampajanna for us, > > Amara > > > > > > 1312 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Friends in Dhamma, I must add a ps and a confession: when I was in Paris, almost 2 weeks ago, my husband persuaded us all to attend the Lido show as well. It was an up to date sound and light experience of pure lobha. During the performance, therefore, no panna arose. But once the performance was over, the realization of the impermanence of the aramana coming through the sense doors hit with a bang and I was thus forcefully reminded once again that all conditioned realities are anatta, anicca and dukkha. Places like the Lido, Las Vegas (there are 2 Thai Buddhist temples there) and karaoke bars are great for panna to arise, provided sati and sampajanna arise as well. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) > > > > I must say it is damned convenient having you in Bangkok to be > > able to tell us about discussions with Khun Sujin. I have never > > thought much about these aspects of Dhamma before and find them > > most interesting. > > > Dear Robert, > > Beats studying alone, doesn't it, which is also why this group is so > great, except that in BKK there is also Khun Sujin, so you must > visit us more often! Is there any chance you'd change your mind > about Cambodia? > > Amara > > > > > > 1313 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight Dear O, Have been following your letters to the group and I too often thought about how ignorant I was when I first met you. Fortunately, I also had the chance to talk with Jack. Had I not done so, I probably would not have contacted Amara and nor begun to study with Achaan. This is just a "story" which shows how everything is conditioned (paccaya). I give thanks every day that the conditions were right for me to begin studying Abhidhamma with Achaan. And I thank you for being part of the conditions which brought me to this point. Very much looking forward to a great reunion with you, Jack and Oie when you all come in December. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:14 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > wrote: > > Dear MN, > > Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. The joy that is > felt is > > the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko) satipatthana, and > then > > understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when there is sati, if > the > > conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes in my life and > > relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) have been > detected as > > well, and this too is a cause for joy. > > > > But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may paraphrase, > how does > > one tell the difference between that type of joy and that which is > lobha? > > Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is understood, > again, if the > > conditions are ripe for it to arise. > > > > > > Dear Betty, > > I'm so happy to see your post on the dhamma group. > Only few months ago, when we've met in the Bay Area. > I notice that your poit of veiw has changed since then. > (correct me if I'm wrong)I remember you comment a lot on > sitting meditation. > > That's reinforce what you've said'panna wnows when it arises" > Fortunatly, we've met the right teacher (tarn Ajarn Sujin) > we all must have accumulated kussala kamma in our past. > > Thanks to everyone's knowledge, and sharing > in dhamma. > With metta, > O > 1314 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:34am Subject: nibbana Dear Jonathan, Yes, I finally got clarification on the question re: the nature of nibbana. When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to nibbana, and the Buddha or Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that arise after that point are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. Panna may indeed still continue to arise even though understanding is complete.. However, when such a being dies and enters Parinibbana, then the cittas and cetasikas end as well. I'm hoping this is correct understanding of that, albeit at an intellectual level only, obviously. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID 1315 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:39am Subject: Re: nibbana > When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to nibbana, and the Buddha or > Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that arise after that point > are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. Dear Betty, I'm pretty sure you made a typo here, you meant to say kiriya instead of viriya, but I'm sure we all got it! Wasn't it great today, Amara 1316 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: nibbana Wooops, sorry about that. Yeah I often do that between kiriya and viriya: type one when I mean the other and vice versa. Carelessness (there must be a cetasika for that). Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:39 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: nibbana > > > When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to nibbana, and the > Buddha or > > Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that arise after > that point > > are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. > > > Dear Betty, > > I'm pretty sure you made a typo here, you meant to say kiriya instead > of viriya, but I'm sure we all got it! > > Wasn't it great today, > > Amara 1317 From: protectID=Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 8:58am Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Amara, Thank you for checking with Achann Sujin. How wonderful and complete her answer is! We are indeed very lucky that we have you right in Thailand with good command of English and Thai. :-))) Anumodana, Alex Tran --- "amara chay" wrote: > > According to Khun Sujin during today's discussion, the arahanta has > eradicated all kilesa, so to continue the analogy (with my witch's > brew luckily coincidental with the holiday spirit of Halloween), > panna has grown so strong that it expulses all bad cetasika from the > cauldron so that what remains are the good ones and the operational > or automatic ones. From then on with no self to feed the gas > pellets with kusala and akusala, since even mana is gone, all > actions turn to kiriya which replace the kusala and akusala, and > therefore all their cetana is fruitless, no matter how splendid the > intention or volition. That is why where normally the last citta > before the cuti citta would be kusala or akusala, which brings > results as the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, for the > arahanta the last citta before cutti would be kiriya that brings no > results whatever. The citta has stopped passing on the contents of > the pot to the next one. In the meantime, before the parinibbana > occurs, there would be kiriya with sobhana or asobhana cetasika > (but of course no more akusala possible) arising concurrently. Khun > Sujin asked for example whether the arahanta would need panna to > bathe as opposed to teaching the dhamma. > > (What a wonderful life it must be never to worry if what one does > could be wrong, aside from the fact that one is freed from the > senseless samsara forever! And most importantly from one's 'self'!!) > > =^_^= > Amara 1318 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 8:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jataka where the bodhisatta stole --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Leonardo, > I just got a note from Nina van gorkom about the > example I gave > you where the bodhisatta stole (I sent her some of > our letters > as her feedback is always accurate). > She gave the name of the jataka-it is the > Silavimamsa birth tale > (No290). She comments that the reason he stole was > to see > whether people respected his lineage etc or because > of sila. She > notes that when we look at the context above all it > "was the > occasion to praise sila". My interpretation gives a > different > twist to this. Please take note. > Robert Robert I meant to respond on this when it came up earlier. I was wondering if what the Bodhisatta did was actually stealing. If it was his intention all along to return the money it may not be regarded as stealing. I raise this because it seems strange that the Bodhisatta should breach the precepts in order to develop that perfection. Jonothan 1319 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] nibbana --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > Yes, I finally got clarification on the question re: > the nature of nibbana. > When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to > nibbana, and the Buddha or > Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that > arise after that point > are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. Panna > may indeed still continue > to arise even though understanding is complete.. > However, when such a being > dies and enters Parinibbana, then the cittas and > cetasikas end as well. Betty Thanks for sharing with us some of your discussion with Khun Sujin. How fortunate you are to have such access. Yes, panna can arise with kiriya citta as well as with kusala citta. (I guess this is why such cetasikas are called sobhana cetasikas - ie. rather than kusala cetasikas.) Jonothan 1320 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jataka where the bodhisatta stole -Dear Jon, Thanks for the note. I am not as careful as Nina is when it comes to interpreting suttas(and have not a fraction of her knowledge let alone insight). I tend to jump in with an opinion - and opinions are usually wrong. Nina will examine and consider and if it is not clear she says "it is not clear". Please pick me up when I err in the future. Robert -- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- > Robert > > I meant to respond on this when it came up earlier. I > was wondering if what the Bodhisatta did was actually > stealing. If it was his intention all along to return > the money it may not be regarded as stealing. I raise > this because it seems strange that the Bodhisatta > should breach the precepts in order to develop that > perfection. > > Jonothan > > > 1321 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > But until our panna is well developed, any > > attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable > to > > our own situation will surely result in the kind > of > > wrong practice that you so well describe here and > in > > your comments on Kom’s posting. > > > > If and when panna is well developed, it arises and > > performs its function (in this case, seeing the > > danger > > in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course, > > without > > having to be called upon to do so. > > So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings > attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the > difference? Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and > 'the > real deal'? Mike It is only too easy to take for kusala/awareness/panna what is akusala/thinking/wrong view. In the end, only our own understanding can know the difference between what Robert (I think) called counterfeit awareness and the real thing. That is why we spend a lot of time talking about the function of awareness and the realities that can be the object of awareness. On a tape I was listening to recently, it was pointed out that understanding that the present moment is without awareness can be a condition for some level of awareness to arise. If the right conditions have been developed, awareness will arise naturally, without any effort or direction on our part. I find this kind of reminder useful. In another post recently you and Robert discussed the need for patience towards pleasant things, as well as for khanti (patience) in its more usual meaning of tolerance towards objects of dosa (eg. other people’s faults). I also found this helpful. When we read/hear about the attainments that understanding can bring, it is easy to forget that these can be achieved only by the gradual and step-by-step development of understanding. In our enthusiasm to put into practice things that we are able to understand and see the benefit of intellectually, it is easy to overlook the fact that our understanding is still at a more basic level. At these moments there is perhaps a lack of patience as regards the desirable object! Anyone who understands at an intellectual level about kusala and akusala can recognise akusala arising from time to time. But this of course is not what is meant by direct awareness of the object appearing at the present moment. Even less is it likely to be so if we focus on mental states with a view to observing whether the thoughts arising are kusala or akusla. (This is simply a variation on the ‘going to a meditation centre’ syndrome.) Then there is bound to be attachment – to the object, to results, to the idea of a self. There is only a kind of thinking that cannot know the difference between the subtle forms of kusala and akusala, no matter how much it might seem that it can. Mike, I’m not sure if this really touches on your point. My apologies if it is off-track. Jonothan 1322 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada Alex I've just found the passage I had in mind. It is in the Discourse on the Six Senses (Majjhima Nikaya No.148). It says- 'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and visible object, the meeting of the three is contact ...' It then goes on to explain about akusala with regard to the experiences through the eye door. And then the same for the other doorways. As you can see, the treatment here, being a sutta, is slightly different. Jonothan --- A T wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > I've just looked up the information in my last > year Abhidhamma notes. > > Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness > 1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye > 2. ruparammana: color as object > 3. aloka: light > 4. manasikara: attention > > Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness > 1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear > 2. saddarammana: sound as object > 3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear > 4. manasikara: attention > > Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness > 1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose > 2. gandharammana: odor as object > 3. vayodhatu: wind > 4. manasikara: attention > > Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness > 1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue > 2. rasarammana: taste as object > 3. apodhatu: water > 4. manasikara: attention > > Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness > 1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body > 2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, > heat/cold, > straightness/crookedness as objects. > 3. thaddhapathavi: earth > 4. manasikara: attention > > Manodhatu: mind element > 1. pancadvara: 5 doors > 2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and > tangibility > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > 4. manasikara: attention > > Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element > 1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga > 2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and > dhamma > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > 4. manasikara: attention > > Regards, > AT > ================================================= > >From: Jonothan Abbott > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] > colour/paticcasamupada > >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST) > > > > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > > > > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana > (seeing > > > consciousness) to arise. These are the > > > cakkhupasasada > > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa > (colour)attention > > > or contact (I forget which) and light. > > > > > >Robert > > > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a > query > >on the four conditions mentioned above. I have > heard > >of there being 3 conditions namely- > > > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) > >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and > >phassa (= contact, a cetasika) > > > >but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other > >sense-doors also, eg for hearing? > > > > > Some people wonder about this because we are > used to > > > scientific explanations that classify colour as > part > > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of > the > > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > > > tiniest > > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > > > fundamental > > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use > and I > > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually > talks > > > about visible object because this is just what > > > appears > > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour > or > > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details > of > > > this topic, as seeing arises so often. > > > >It has always intrigued me that although (in > English, > >at least) we have specific terms for the objects > >which are experienced through the ear and nose > doors > >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding > term > >for the object experienced through the eye door. I > >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in > the > >story of the experiences throught that doorway that > we > >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' > object > >as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking > >level, distinguish between sound experienced > through > >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or > >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, > the > >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the > >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the > case > >of the visible object. Even if we are given the > whole > >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's > >difficult to come up with any meaningful > description. > > > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have > about > >v-o. > > > >Jonothan > > > > > > > 1323 From: Mary Reinard Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:59am Subject: A bit more of an intro Hello again, Just got back from my visiting about. Caught the posts directed toward myself asking for a bit more introduction. Ok. As an artist my practice spills into action through the learning/practice of Buddhist Iconography. Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Pasanno are the teachers taken most closely to this heart for guidance. Am married, live in a white house with a picket fence, two cats and a yard, though not 64, I still feed him:) Am volunteer cordinator for a wee sitting group in Portland, OR. and recieve much joy from sharing the Buddha's teachings with my community. Can't say I'm very versed on the words and structures that seem to heavily influence the dialogue in this list, and am not sure I'll find a way to fruitfully participate, however, I'll give it a shot. My style tends to be a bit slower than what so far I've observed here. It may take me a day or two to absorb and relate back my personal understanding, in which time you will most likely all have moved on to other subjects. But, doesn't appear that this will be of any issue, just wished to warn you of what may feel like a delayed reaction on my part. I am glad to be here, and will speak to you all again. Metta, Mary 1324 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > But until our panna is well developed, any > > > attempt to make the Buddha’s experience > referable > > to > > > our own situation will surely result in the kind > > of > > > wrong practice that you so well describe here > and > > in > > > your comments on Kom’s posting. > > > > > > If and when panna is well developed, it arises > and > > > performs its function (in this case, seeing the > > > danger > > > in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course, > > > without > > > having to be called upon to do so. > > > > So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings > > attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the > > difference? Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and > > 'the > > real deal'? > > Mike > > It is only too easy to take for > kusala/awareness/panna > what is akusala/thinking/wrong view. In the end, > only > our own understanding can know the difference > between > what Robert (I think) called counterfeit awareness > and > the real thing. That is why we spend a lot of time > talking about the function of awareness and the > realities that can be the object of awareness. On a > tape I was listening to recently, it was pointed out > that understanding that the present moment is > without > awareness can be a condition for some level of > awareness to arise. If the right conditions have > been > developed, awareness will arise naturally, without > any > effort or direction on our part. I find this kind > of > reminder useful. > > In another post recently you and Robert discussed > the > need for patience towards pleasant things, as well > as > for khanti (patience) in its more usual meaning of > tolerance towards objects of dosa (eg. other > people’s > faults). I also found this helpful. When we > read/hear about the attainments that understanding > can > bring, it is easy to forget that these can be > achieved > only by the gradual and step-by-step development of > understanding. In our enthusiasm to put into > practice > things that we are able to understand and see the > benefit of intellectually, it is easy to overlook > the > fact that our understanding is still at a more basic > level. At these moments there is perhaps a lack of > patience as regards the desirable object! > > Anyone who understands at an intellectual level > about > kusala and akusala can recognise akusala arising > from > time to time. But this of course is not what is > meant > by direct awareness of the object appearing at the > present moment. Even less is it likely to be so if > we > focus on mental states with a view to observing > whether the thoughts arising are kusala or akusla. > (This is simply a variation on the ‘going to a > meditation centre’ syndrome.) Then there is bound to > be attachment – to the object, to results, to the > idea > of a self. There is only a kind of thinking that > cannot know the difference between the subtle forms > of > kusala and akusala, no matter how much it might seem > that it can. > > Mike, I’m not sure if this really touches on your > point. My apologies if it is off-track. > > Jonothan Dear Jonothan, Thanks, your reponse certainly is to the point. As is often the case, I think I'm looking for simple solutions (or answers) to complex problems (or questions). I thought this was particularly apt: > Anyone who understands at an intellectual level > about kusala and akusala can recognise akusala > arising from time to time. But this of course is > not what is meant by direct awareness of the object > appearing at the present moment. Even less is it > likely to be so if we focus on mental states with a > view to observing whether the thoughts arising are > kusala or akusla. (This is simply a variation on the > ‘going to a meditation centre’ syndrome). So I guess the answer is to continue to try to cultivate conditions, in the present, for the natural arising of panna in the future. This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma: If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to viriya or vayama, e.g., play? That is, is 'effort' as conventionally understood just an illusion? How does the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these dhammas are uncontrollable? I realize this is a different question from the original. Hope I'm not being obtuse! Thanks in advance, mn 1325 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:42am Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro > As an artist my practice spills into action through the > learning/practice of Buddhist Iconography. Wow!!! Dear Mary, Would it be possible to see some of your creations? Maybe you could attach some scanned work to your e-mails here? I have a lot of Lobha for beautiful things, but then only the anagami is no longer affected by 'beauty'! Looking forward very much and thanking you in advance, Amara 1326 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Dear Mike. > > "This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma: > If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously > due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to > viriya or vayama, e.g., play? That is, is 'effort' as > conventionally understood just an illusion? How does > the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding > of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at > the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising > with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these > dhammas are uncontrollable?" I would have a few things to say about this (and of course Jon will too, and others I hope). But in the meantime could you give us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go to the heart of how we understand the Dhamma and what right practice is. Robert > > I realize this is a different question from the > original. Hope I'm not being obtuse! > > Thanks in advance, > > mn > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1327 From: Mary Reinard Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:59am Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro Maybe you > could attach some scanned work to your e-mails here> > Amara Dear Amara, How do I attach a file? Mary 1329 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 0:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Robert, Thanks for your response. wrote: > could you give > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go > to the heart > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right > practice is. > Robert I thought so. My problem is that I don't seem to have much in the way of thoughts to offer. I really do understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the point, sammavayama), is already a kind of sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is something that 'I' can exert. And that even the effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and dependent on present accumulations. And yet everything seems to depend on this very cetana. That is, that if awareness is arising now, it is conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will have been conditioned by present cetana (among other things). I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very superficial, theoretical level. But even on this level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it. I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around in this particular cul-de-sac. Thanks for your help! Bedtime for me. I look forward to your reply. mn 1330 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A bit more of an intro DeaR mARY, Thanks for the intro. Recently a lot of our discussions have got rather technical but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate posts that use conventional terms and talk about our daily lives- whatever they might be. Dhamma is simply what is real - and to understand what is real we have to also know what is not real. It is hard for me to think of anything that can't be related to Dhamma (provided we know how to relate it). So... speak about any matter at all. And I love your lotus! I am not artistic at all (my students laugh when I try to draw something on the board). I was into science as a child, everyone has different leanings due to accumulations, but I've always admired artists. Robert 1331 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:01pm Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro Dear Mary, How wonderful, and I see that you've worked out the files thing by yourself! Have you used the design somewhere or someplace? How did you become interested in Buddhist Iconography, by the way? Thank you for sharing, Amara 1332 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:15pm Subject: Joe- time & path Dear Joe, > >Was one of the monks Phra Alan by chance? Also, do you know of a way to >contact Nina? I passed through Nakhon Phanom just a few weeks ago. > Betty's been more efficient at looking out Nina's address (thanks Betty). When you look her up at her wonderful old Thai house and orchard, you'll find she knows quite a few of us here.... We all hope in time she'll be able to join! I'm sure Phra Alan would be the same Phra Dhammadharo as he was 'around' at that time and supported by Jonothan and attending and holding discussions. Robert is compiling a mini biography of him (is that right, Robert?). He disrobed in 1980 or 81, lived in Australia and Bangkok, but was sadly killed in a car accident about 10yrs ago...(I'm a bit fuzzy on dates). Some of us here attended his funeral services and scattering of ashes in Bkk, which for me was an unforgettable experience. I arrived in tears from the airport but after a little time with Khun Sujin, who was plucking flower petals, eating, smiling and talking about the dhamma in a very natural way, there were no more tears. Who was I crying for? Myself. Sarah 1334 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 2:26pm Subject: Cheats Dear friends Robert asked me to bring this little discussion we had , to the group its about cheating ( vangchaka ) dhammas. hi robert, you can find descriptions abt cheating dhammas in some pali scripts ( visuddhimagga etc..i believe) cheating dhammas arise in minds that are trying to practise the dhamma, who are trying to do wholesome things ( with kusalacchanda- liking for doing wholesome things). Its not that the person involved is trying to cheat somebody, but the person is cheated himself by these dhammas that arise in his mind. The person, after hearing dhamma and thinking on it , develops a certain disliking towards the akusalas, so those akusala dhammas will be recognised by the person once they arise in their true nature. So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a kusala. These are the cheating dhammas. The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops kusala but what hes developing is an akusala. An example is vichikiccha(doubt).. it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and searches about facts. The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right thing ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but hes blocked by none other than the vichikiccha. the raaga cheats as metta , the remorse cheats as compassion, the maana cheats in many ways(ie mana arising due to the morals[seela])... the mere tanha cheats as 'working for the well being of others' the vyapaada cheats as 'working for the rights of the others' like this.. knowing these will give the warning signs when the mind is about to be cheated. This is as far as i can describe I will let you know where they appear in the thripitaka rgds gayan dear robert, another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' it cheats as 'panna' but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without seeing the drawbacks . for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or trying to act like no offence is done ..etc.. rgds 1335 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 2:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Mn, Many thanks for your question, for it is one we all grapple (if that's the correct word) with. How is the effort of a meditator different from that of one practicing vipassana/satipatthana? I think the answer lies in sampajanna. If sati arises in the course of pondering, not just aimless thinking, but real pondering on a particular question, text, quote, etc, and the 4 sampajanna are conditioned to arise, then panna will also arise. If panna does indeed arise, then it is like a kind of test or method of checking whether the practise is correct. If one meditates in the conventional manner and no panna seems to arise under those conditions, then the practice is not correct. But, on the other hand, if pondering does indeed become the condition for sati, then conditioning sampajanna to arise, which then conditions panna to arise, then it is correct, it is being proven. This is the way I understand it. Please comment and correct me if there is wrong view here. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear > > --- Dear Mike. > > > > "This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma: > > If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously > > due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to > > viriya or vayama, e.g., play? That is, is 'effort' as > > conventionally understood just an illusion? How does > > the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding > > of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at > > the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising > > with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these > > dhammas are uncontrollable?" > > I would have a few things to say about this (and of course Jon > will too, and others I hope). But in the meantime could you give > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go to the heart > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right practice is. > Robert > > > > I realize this is a different question from the > > original. Hope I'm not being obtuse! > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > mn > > > 1336 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca > > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about > > paticca > > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite > > a while, but > > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as > > though it were > > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then > > clinging, then > > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas > > arising > > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, > > ignorance with > > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too! > > > > Dear sarah, >Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the >paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with some >links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely co-nascent) >other links are more difficult to fathom. The paticcasamupadda >is sublime because it is not only referring to the present >moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives. >Robert. > > Robert, here goes! My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the paticca samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the conditions which 'decide' what reality will arise at what time are extremely complex. We can only get little glimpses through our studies of paccaya (conditions). One problem, as I see it, is that many people read and study the paticca samuppada with a view to first being aware of say contact, then of say feeling and then of say tanha... following the order of paticca samuppada. Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to understand these links, in practical terms, we need to understand the characteristics of these and many, many other realities more and more precisely so that awareness and understanding can do their job of being aware and knowing the realities WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order. It's also important to understand that at any given moment a citta arises with many different cetasikas (even though only one can be known at a time). So while people may think that at one moment there is phassa (contact) and the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, they misunderstand that phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. This is not to say that the phassa with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at this moment. If only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata paccaya (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd think annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but i'd need to give all this more thought! There are also many conditions which would link the phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by pacchajat (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition) conditions and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very fascinating, but I'm only a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert! Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how paticca samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta through last life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain just a single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to get a little glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the development of understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual and usually with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about avijja...(sorry, I can't add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until avijja (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with the citta from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta (when we say there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those moments as anusaya (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala citta has passed..... Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the matter and I'm not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. Pls correct any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see that some of us are a little slow.... Sarah 1337 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Mike In an earlier post you said- > Two points: > > (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance) > is > only khanti if it arises in reaction to something > that > might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not > lobha. > If that is so, is there another parami--maybe > upekkha, > or sacca--maybe just panna--that might arise > similarly > in reaction to something that might otherwise cause > the arising of lobha? > > (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving > for > the arising of either of these parami? If there is, > I'd very much like to know how to go about it. But > in > fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in > the > present citta (and other conditions) allow them to > arise? I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on your point (b), so allow me to say that, if I understand you correctly, you are spot on here. Kusala dhammas can only arise to the extent (both as to frequency and intensity) that they have been developed. There is no point in trying to 'have' any particular form of kusala or to 'use' it as a tool for whatever purpose. There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is kusala. This was so before we became interested in the dhamma, and remains so now. This is because we have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala. This is not something to be seen as a cause for regret, but simply something to accept and face up to. It takes courage to do this, since it goes against all our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to what spiritual development is all about. But once accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it means that we don't really expect anything other than akusala. And once we understand that the task is not to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties (including the akusala ones) as they are, we realise that it doesn't really matter anyway. Jonothan 1338 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Gayan This is very interesting, and I look forward to learning more about it. Just a preliminary query. Are these 'cheaters' in any way comparable to the 'near enemies'? I recall that many kusala cetasikas have a near and a far enemy. Jonothan --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Dear friends > > Robert asked me to bring this little discussion we > had , to the group > > its about cheating ( vangchaka ) dhammas. > > > > hi robert, > > > you can find descriptions abt cheating dhammas in > some pali scripts > ( visuddhimagga etc..i believe) > > cheating dhammas arise in minds that are trying to > practise the dhamma, who are > trying to do wholesome > things ( with kusalacchanda- liking for doing > wholesome things). > Its not that the person involved is trying to cheat > somebody, > but the person is cheated himself by these dhammas > that arise in his mind. > The person, after hearing dhamma and thinking on it > , develops a certain > disliking towards the akusalas, > so those akusala dhammas will be recognised by the > person once they arise in > their true nature. > So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a > kusala. > These are the cheating dhammas. > The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops > kusala but what hes > developing is an akusala. > > An example is vichikiccha(doubt).. > it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and > searches about facts. > The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right > thing > ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but > hes blocked by none other > than the vichikiccha. > > the raaga cheats as metta , > the remorse cheats as compassion, > > the maana cheats in many ways(ie mana arising due to > the morals[seela])... > > the mere tanha cheats as 'working for the well being > of others' > > the vyapaada cheats as 'working for the rights of > the others' > > like this.. > > knowing these will give the warning signs when the > mind is about to be cheated. > > > This is as far as i can describe > I will let you know where they appear in the > thripitaka > > rgds > > gayan > > dear robert, > > another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' > it cheats as 'panna' > but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill > without seeing the drawbacks > . > > for training people this may come when trying to > 'skip' or trying to act like no > offence is done ..etc.. > > > rgds > > 1339 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:53pm Subject: sampajanna >1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance: >clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this >understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think >deeply, about whatever question arises. >2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would >understand whether one is ready to understand or not. >3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear >comprehension >of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door >processes. >4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At >this >point, panna would then arise. >Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in the >process of satipatthana. > Betty, this is clear and helpful, thankyou! sappaya- 'one would understand whether one is ready to understand or not'.....very profound....Would you follow up and transcribe what K.Sujin says, if it's convenient.....I've actually had discussions before with her on the sampajanna but don't remember it being put in this way....Perhaps we could ask at this moment when we're enjoying the lobha or rather the lobha is enjoying its object, are we really interested in understanding it? Most of the time, not! Amara wrote about how wonderful life would be to be freed from samsara and 'most importantly from one's self', but are we really ready? I wonder?! What do you think, Amara? At least we know you don't mind giving up the Paris shows!! gocara- yes, this is why it's so important to hear and consider all realities, to know exactly what awareness can be aware of and what understanding can understand. best wishes, Sarah . 1340 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear mn, A similar question came up just yesterday. I was reflecting about the deliberate attempt to be aware of nama and rupa, and about how it was in fact dodging the real issue. I then reflected on the importance of cetana. I thought that the cetana should be directed towards the real issue. Say if I was looking at a beautiful woman, and suddenly I began seeing that object as being composed of parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha that initially arose? And since cetana is also not-self, what can be done? I concluded that present cetana would condition future cetana, and at this point I left it to'dhamma'. Perhaps I was and am avoiding something and would like to hear comments from group members on this.But I don't have the feeling of being caught in a vicious circle as you do. I somehow feel that eventhough my understanding is only intellectual at this point, I have no other recourse than to read, consider and discuss(this was my cetana just a moment ago, now the cetana is different, now I'm blur about intention, now I'll just finish my post and wait for a reply). Anumoddhana, Sukin. "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for your response. > > wrote: > > > could you give > > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go > > to the heart > > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right > > practice is. > > Robert > > I thought so. My problem is that I don't seem to have > much in the way of thoughts to offer. I really do > understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that > 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the > point, sammavayama), is already a kind of > sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is > something that 'I' can exert. And that even the > effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and > subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and > dependent on present accumulations. And yet > everything seems to depend on this very cetana. That > is, that if awareness is arising now, it is > conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and > that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will > have been conditioned by present cetana (among other > things). > > I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very > superficial, theoretical level. But even on this > level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it. > I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around > in this particular cul-de-sac. Thanks for your help! > > Bedtime for me. I look forward to your reply. > > mn > 1341 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear mn, ps: I also thought besides having cetana of tackling the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may be 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel stuck. But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!? What cetana has arisen and what will arise? It does seem circular now. Help someone! Sukin. "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for your response. > > wrote: > > > could you give > > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go > > to the heart > > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right > > practice is. > > Robert > > I thought so. My problem is that I don't seem to have > much in the way of thoughts to offer. I really do > understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that > 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the > point, sammavayama), is already a kind of > sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is > something that 'I' can exert. And that even the > effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and > subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and > dependent on present accumulations. And yet > everything seems to depend on this very cetana. That > is, that if awareness is arising now, it is > conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and > that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will > have been conditioned by present cetana (among other > things). > > I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very > superficial, theoretical level. But even on this > level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it. > I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around > in this particular cul-de-sac. Thanks for your help! > > Bedtime for me. I look forward to your reply. > > mn > > 1342 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:24pm Subject: Two more from Varee We have put up two more 'words' in A Few Words, a section in : Dhamma and Pannatti. They are both excerpts from the 'Summary' in the advanced section, Do have a look, (see if you remember reading them already!) Amara 1343 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:01pm Subject: Re: sampajanna Amara wrote about how wonderful life would be to be freed > from samsara and 'most importantly from one's self', but are we really > ready? I wonder?! What do you think, Amara? Dear Sarah, Actually I said how wonderful life 'must' be because we can only wonder about it! But I guess we need all our faculties to study until panna is so strong it steps in and does its duty at which point no one needs to give up anything, I think. But that is only for the arahanta, everyone else needs to keep studying, so instead of repressing the self as they do with samatha, we should face our darkest side as they arise, as well as our brightest, until we have finished studying, with perfect panna of realities as they really are. As it is, we should all keep walking step by step and not worry where we are because at least we are one step closer to the mountain top! Amara 1344 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention Dear Mike, You wrote " "So I guess the answer is to continue to try to cultivate conditions, in the present, for the natural arising of panna in the future. This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma: If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to viriya or vayama, e.g., play? That is, is 'effort' as conventionally understood just an illusion? How does the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these dhammas are uncontrollable? I really do > understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that > 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the > point, sammavayama), is already a kind of > sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is > something that 'I' can exert. And that even the > effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and > subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and > dependent on present accumulations. And yet > everything seems to depend on this very cetana. That > is, that if awareness is arising now, it is > conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and > that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will > have been conditioned by present cetana (among other > things)." These reflections of yours are indicative of a certain level of understanding. Why did this dilemma arise in the first place? Obviously because you are starting to realise that satipatthana is not such an easy path to understand and that dint of will cannot make it occur. Well, this may not please you, but I think it will seem even harder after a little more time. You write "yet everything seems to depend on this very cetana". I don't think so. Cetana is not a factor of the eight-factored path. Remember that the eight factored path is a name for the cetasikas that arise during satipatthana and that culminate in the experience of nibbana. Usually there are actually only five factors, cetasikas. Cetana is not among them. If we give preponderance to one cetasika I think this indicates an idea of control,somewhere. All cetasikas are conditioned by various factors. Cetana, volition, intention, is one of the sabbacittasadharana (universals) that arise with every citta. In other words cetana is always present - although each cetana is different from the last. Cetana can be of the 4 jatis of kusala, kusala, vipaka and kiriya. Even when we are in deep sleep there is cetana. (I can give more details along these lines if you want me to?) Perhaps what you mean by cetana is intention in the usual sense - so for example I try to be aware of seeing, try to understand its true nature. In that case there are many cetasikas involved (classified under sankhara khanda)- not just cetana- although cetana may be predominant. What is actually occuring? Let me give some scenarios as rough (very rough) illustrations: I'll use "I" a lot just to make it conversational- but remember no "I" in reality. 1. I concentrate on seeing, trying to separate the colour(rupa) from the seeing (nama) - but with a citta rooted in lobha of some degree that is hoping to really understand. (the wrong way) 2. I concentrate on seeing but with a citta rooted in lobha and ditthi - I think I can control sati, samadhi and the other cetasikas - (wrong again). 3. I do nothing and just trust that one day sati and panna will arise out of the blue. (the opposite extreme). 4. I study in a very detached way colour or seeing or any other dhamma that is predominant at any door but without any hope for result or feeling that I can bring up sati. I realise that sati arises very seldom and that even this apparently detached study is still 99.99999% done with cittas rooted in lobha and moha. If I feel that I can control anything I know this shows a weakness in theoretical understanding. I am not sure if there was any sati at all actually. I have a slight headache right now and so the tightness and vibration in that area are apparent - if there is awareness then these dhammas are seen without aversion. But how easily the idea of "my awareness" comes in. And (assuming there was awareness) awareness of these elements could have been of the type that is samattha (the elements) or of vipassana - which was it? My son was just talking to me and I was studying the doorways of ear and eye. Studying sound and colour and breaking down, dissecting the concepts of "son" and "me". Sound is not son, colour is not son. This is what I would call "considering in the present moment"- not clear understanding. Just now I looked up. But there is no "me". The commentary says (p121 Fruits of recuseship), talking about looking ahead or looking aside, "the eye is a support condition : forms are an object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive support, absence, and disapperance condition; light is a decisive support condition; feeling etc are conascence conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these conditions. Therein, who is it that looks ahead? Who looks aside?" Realities are arising at the six doors all the time. We need to learn to see that a moment at one door is different from a moment at another. There has to be study, investigation of these dhammas, but in the right way - and that is not easy, it is conditioned, it needs accumulations and study. In fact the meditation centers and the different methods, Goenka, Mahasi etc have got it right when they emphasize direct study of paramattha dhammas. The thing is, though, is that effort and intention can so easily be akusala, tied up in subtle ideas of self and achievement. You wrote "How does the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at the meditation center " Understanding of arising and ceasing is an advanced stage of vipassana that comes after the first stage where the difference betwen nama and rupa are clearly seen. Everyone can see that cittas change and that rupas change. If we make it our life study we will see this change incessantly. Nonetheless this is not what is meant by arising and ceasing at the level of vipassana . Khun sujin's descriptions of vipassana nanas make it clear that at this level there is no idea at all of anyone making it happen. In fact it happens in a flash - it cannot be controlled. the mind door is revealed and the difference between nama and rupas is clearly seen. I can write more about this if you have specific questions. Well Mike I wrote something- was it helpful? It was a little off the topic, it went here and there. Robert 1345 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear gayan, Yes i find this intriguing. If you can find refererences please tell us. There is an interesting bit in a commentary (I forget where). I might have a detail or two slightly wrong. It talks about the one who has studied and developed wisdom to some degree. This one might consider "well, merely the thought of giving is kusala" and then decide to save his time and not give! It says this one is made ill by the medicine and is almost impossible to cure. It is a good warning- sometimes we are liable to go to extremes and think 'well everything is anatta - why do anything- if it was meant to happen it will happen" and "so I abused him, its anatta, can't help it". Always ways to leave the middle path. robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Dear friends > > Robert asked me to bring this little discussion we had , to > the group > > its about cheating ( vangchaka ) dhammas. > > > > hi robert, > > > you can find descriptions abt cheating dhammas in some pali > scripts > ( visuddhimagga etc..i believe) > > cheating dhammas arise in minds that are trying to practise > the dhamma, who are > trying to do wholesome > things ( with kusalacchanda- liking for doing wholesome > things). > Its not that the person involved is trying to cheat somebody, > but the person is cheated himself by these dhammas that arise > in his mind. > The person, after hearing dhamma and thinking on it , develops > a certain > disliking towards the akusalas, > so those akusala dhammas will be recognised by the person once > they arise in > their true nature. > So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a kusala. > These are the cheating dhammas. > The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops kusala > but what hes > developing is an akusala. > > An example is vichikiccha(doubt).. > it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and searches > about facts. > The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right thing > ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but hes > blocked by none other > than the vichikiccha. > > the raaga cheats as metta , > the remorse cheats as compassion, > > the maana cheats in many ways(ie mana arising due to the > morals[seela])... > > the mere tanha cheats as 'working for the well being of > others' > > the vyapaada cheats as 'working for the rights of the others' > > like this.. > > knowing these will give the warning signs when the mind is > about to be cheated. > > > This is as far as i can describe > I will let you know where they appear in the thripitaka > > rgds > > gayan > > dear robert, > > another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' > it cheats as 'panna' > but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without > seeing the drawbacks > . > > for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or > trying to act like no > offence is done ..etc.. > > > rgds > > > > > 1346 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joe- time & path --- > > I'm sure Phra Alan would be the same Phra Dhammadharo as he > was 'around' at > that time and supported by Jonothan and attending and holding > discussions. > > Robert is compiling a mini biography of him (is that right, > Robert?). Yes sarah - only about three pages. I am so behind with so many things. One day!!! And Joe - if you have any memories that I could add (preferably a nice anecdote well crafted so I can slip it in with minimal thinking on my behalf)I much appreciate it- you too sarah if you have time. Robert 1347 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear sarah, Your post made it clear just how hard it is to understand paticcasamupada. You relate it alot to the paccaya in the Patthana and this is my approach too. Of all the aspects of Dhamma, paticcasamupada is the hardest for me to intellectually grasp. I think it is as you said that only by understandinmg realities can we begin to see it. You noted "Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until > avijja > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with > the citta > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta > (when we say > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those > moments as anusaya > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala > citta has > passed..... > Even when we have kusala - if it is not of the type that is satipatthana there is no understanding of paticasamupada and thus the wheel just gets another twist. Tough stuff. Robert Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert > about > > > paticca > > > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for > quite > > > a while, but > > > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle > as > > > though it were > > > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then > > > clinging, then > > > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to > cetasikas > > > arising > > > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every > citta, > > > ignorance with > > > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too! > > > > > > Dear sarah, > >Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the > >paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with > some > >links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely > co-nascent) > >other links are more difficult to fathom. The > paticcasamupadda > >is sublime because it is not only referring to the present > >moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives. > >Robert. > > > > > Robert, > > here goes! > > My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the > paticca > samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the > conditions which > 'decide' what reality will arise at what time are extremely > complex. We can > only get little glimpses through our studies of paccaya > (conditions). > > One problem, as I see it, is that many people read and study > the paticca > samuppada with a view to first being aware of say contact, > then of say > feeling and then of say tanha... following the order of > paticca samuppada. > Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to understand > these links, > in practical terms, we need to understand the characteristics > of these and > many, many other realities more and more precisely so that > awareness and > understanding can do their job of being aware and knowing the > realities > WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order. > > It's also important to understand that at any given moment a > citta arises > with many different cetasikas (even though only one can be > known at a time). > So while people may think that at one moment there is phassa > (contact) and > the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, they > misunderstand that > phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. This is not to say > that the phassa > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at > this moment. If > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata > paccaya > (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd > think > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but > i'd need to give > all this more thought! There are also many conditions which > would link the > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by > pacchajat > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition) > conditions > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very > fascinating, but I'm only > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert! > > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how > paticca > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta > through last > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to > explain just a > single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to > get a little > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the > development of > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual > and usually > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about > avijja...(sorry, I can't > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until > avijja > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with > the citta > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta > (when we say > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those > moments as anusaya > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala > citta has > passed..... > > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the > matter and I'm > not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. > Pls correct > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see > that some of > us are a little slow.... > > Sarah > 1348 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened? Dear Group, I was reading the commentary to Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali (the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of hindrances) 6th sutta. One interesting story about the thera Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera . He taught the Tipitaka with regard to its meaning (atthakatha) and pali. Depending on him 60,000 bhikhus attained arahatship. But one of them later wondered about his teacher's attainment and found he was not even a sotapanna. The student by hinting let the teacher know this. (the teacher later took on all 13 dhutanga(including never sitting or lying down!!) and thirty years later became enlightened.) I thought this was interesting to know about. This teacher was one who carefully taught the Buddha's words and didn't try to put in his own opinions. Robert 1349 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:18pm Subject: Re: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened? But one of them later wondered about his > teacher's attainment and found he was not even a sotapanna. The > student by hinting let the teacher know this. Dear Robert, Sorry to be a dunce, what did the student 'let the teacher know', that he 'knew this' or that 'he was not even a sotapanna', although he thought he had attained something? Just a detail but I wondered about it, Amara 1350 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Jonothan, Thank you for this useful post. It's talking directly to me. >There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is >kusala. This was so before we became interested in >the dhamma, and remains so now. This is because we >have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala. This >is not something to be seen as a cause for regret, but >simply something to accept and face up to. How true! >It takes courage to do this, since it goes against all >our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to >what spiritual development is all about. Since joining this group, most of the time that I can be aware of what's going on within me (which is rare any way), I see a lot of dosa and lobha. I even see that if the color of dosa, lobha, and avijja is dark, I'm really very dark! Then, I think that if adosa, alobha, and panna is light like the Arahant, indeed, I have a long long way to go. >But once >accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it >means that we don't really expect anything other than >akusala. And once we understand that the task is not >to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties >(including the akusala ones) as they are, we realise >that it doesn't really matter anyway. Thank you for reminding me about accepting akusala realities. > >Jonothan Alex 1351 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Sukin, Thank you for your reflections. Great to see you grappling with these profound matters that are of interest to all of us. --- "Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear mn, > A similar question came up just yesterday. I was reflecting > about the deliberate attempt to be aware of nama and rupa, > and about how it was in fact dodging the real issue. > I then reflected on the importance of cetana. > I thought that the cetana should be directed towards > the real issue. Say if I was looking at a beautiful woman, and > suddenly I began seeing that object as being composed of > parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha that > initially arose? And since cetana is also not-self, what can > be > done?" There are two groups of kammatthana (meditation subjects)of either nama and rupa (i.e the khandas, the dhatus, the ayatanas) or the forty objects of samattha. Your gocara - sampajana (resort) in this case was nama and rupa. When we look at a beautiful woman if the gocara-sampajana (resort for clear comprehension)is not abandoned then there will be a dissection of what is seen, there will be guarding of the sense doors. Seeing sees visible object - it sees only colours but so quickly afterwards minddoor processes form up the idea of shape and form and woman. If no awareness arises there is immediately the "grasping of details" such as lips, hair, smile, dress etc etc. and so lobha strongly arises (avijja darts among thingsd that are not real). (See Sujin Boriharnwanaket Realities and Concepts p27). If the kamatthana is not relinquished then there is study of namas and rupas, guarding of the doors, and an understanding of paramattha dhammas. It doesn't matter if lobha arises - it can be understood too. Or there can still be study of seeing and colour - in this way there is the gradual development of wsidom that can distingush between concept and reality. Seeing a beautiful woman is a good test - we can see the difference that distinguishing concept from reality makes. Robert I concluded that present cetana would condition future > cetana, and at this point I left it to'dhamma'. Perhaps I was > and am avoiding something and would like to hear comments > from group members on this.But I don't have the feeling of > being caught in a vicious circle as you do. I somehow feel > that eventhough my understanding is only intellectual at > this point, I have no other recourse than to read, consider > and discuss(this was my cetana just a moment ago, now > the cetana is different, now I'm blur about intention, now > I'll just finish my post and wait for a reply). > > Anumoddhana, > Sukin. > > > "m. nease" wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > > > Thanks for your response. > > > > wrote: > > > > > could you give > > > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go > > > to the heart > > > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right > > > practice is. > > > Robert > > > > I thought so. My problem is that I don't seem to have > > much in the way of thoughts to offer. I really do > > understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that > > 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the > > point, sammavayama), is already a kind of > > sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is > > something that 'I' can exert. And that even the > > effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and > > subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and > > dependent on present accumulations. And yet > > everything seems to depend on this very cetana. That > > is, that if awareness is arising now, it is > > conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and > > that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will > > have been conditioned by present cetana (among other > > things). > > > > I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very > > superficial, theoretical level. But even on this > > level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it. > > I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around > > in this particular cul-de-sac. Thanks for your help! > > > > Bedtime for me. I look forward to your reply. > > > > mn > > > > 1352 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened? It doesn't say Amara. The teacher was always busy with learning and teaching. After the student flew off in the air the teacher became alarmed and took on the dhutanga - which he steadfastly kept for 30 rains until he became arahant. --- amara chay wrote: > > But one of them later wondered about his > > teacher's attainment and found he was not even a sotapanna. > The > > student by hinting let the teacher know this. > > > Dear Robert, > > Sorry to be a dunce, what did the student 'let the teacher > know', > that he 'knew this' or that 'he was not even a sotapanna', > although > he thought he had attained something? Just a detail but I > wondered > about it, > > Amara > > 1356 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:55pm Subject: Re: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened? > The teacher was always busy with learning > and teaching. After the student flew off in the air the teacher > became alarmed and took on the dhutanga - which he steadfastly > kept for 30 rains until he became arahant. Dear Robert, Thanks for a great reminder! So often the 'fun' of learning the intricate and complex relationship of realities, especially among the namadhamma, can absorb us in another kind of attachment, and instead of realizing that realities are just that, nama and rupa, and not the self, we might think we are so great to have understood the theories- But that's what it only is, more namadhamma that organized, inderstood and remembered thoughts about realities- What about the realities that are appearing now? Are we aware of them as just thoughts, just sight, sound, touch? Otherwise the theories, no matter how profound and truthful, are absolutely useless without practical momentary testing, experiencing with all our faculties of the six dvara. Only the knowledge of the characteristics of realities that appear to us could accumulate panna as things as they really are. Thanks for the story and anumodana, Amara 1358 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:02pm Subject: Delayed Responses Dear Friends, Thank you, Jon, Sukin, Robert, Betty for your wonderful responses. I don't have time to respond this morning, which inspires a great desire to stay home from work read, ponder and reply... Gayan, thanks for your very useful post on cheaters (vanghaka)! Never heard of these before, but something tells me I know them quite well just the same (and am pleased to reflect that it's they, not I, who have been doing the cheating...!) Mary, very glad to see you here (again)--thanks for the splendid icon, and I do hope you'll hang in long enough to get over the vocabulary hump. It's more than well worth it... Anumodana, All, mn 1359 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sampajanna Dear Sarah, Great lobha feeling to know that my explanation of sampajanna was helpful to you. That is basically what Achaan said, but I will ask Amara to send you a tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your mailing address? __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:53 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sampajanna > >1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance: > >clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this > >understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think > >deeply, about whatever question arises. > >2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would > >understand whether one is ready to understand or not. > >3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear > >comprehension > >of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door > >processes. > >4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At > >this > >point, panna would then arise. > >Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in the > >process of satipatthana. > > > > Betty, > > this is clear and helpful, thankyou! > > sappaya- 'one would understand whether one is ready to understand or > not'.....very profound....Would you follow up and transcribe what K.Sujin > says, if it's convenient.....I've actually had discussions before with her > on the sampajanna but don't remember it being put in this way....Perhaps we > could ask at this moment when we're enjoying the lobha or rather the lobha > is enjoying its object, are we really interested in understanding it? Most > of the time, not! Amara wrote about how wonderful life would be to be freed > from samsara and 'most importantly from one's self', but are we really > ready? I wonder?! What do you think, Amara? At least we know you don't mind > giving up the Paris shows!! > > gocara- yes, this is why it's so important to hear and consider all > realities, to know exactly what awareness can be aware of and what > understanding can understand. > > best wishes, > Sarah > . > > 1360 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: to 'sit' or not to 'sit'? > p.s Group, for some reason, some of my posts are being put on the list in > duplicate. I hasten to add this is not because Hotmail, Egroups or I think > they warrant this special attention....And I doubt the devas do either, > Robert! if it doesn't correct soon, I'll change the server. Dear Sarah, I wouldn't worry about it, or change servers just yet, it used to happen to me a lot, I remember once I think I had about eight of mine appearing, followed by another the next day or something to that effect. I think it happened again a few days ago, in fact, so I really think it is e-group's problem, but it's nothing harmful, even if a bit embarrassing, but otherwise their service is so great, I think it more than makes up for it! Thanks again for everything and anumodana, Amara 1361 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:26pm Subject: Re: sampajanna I will ask Amara to send you a > tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your mailing address? Dear Betty and friends, I know everyone thinks I have a set of the English discussion tapes because I edit them for the foundation, but I am sorry to say I haven't kept any copies for myself, so I have none at home except for the ones I'm working on. It would be much better to ask the people at the foundation to send them to you, they have very fast copying machines sent from America by our friends of the San Francisco and Frsno areas, and the complete set of the tapes already edited, but they might have a heavy workload and might take some time send the tapes out. Having said that, especially for this group I will try to get the tapes to you myself, I might have to borrow the masters and copy them on my own inferior machine, which might get to you faster or not, but will not be as professionally done. By the way Betty, I am sending you a note off-list, so see you in a few! Amara 1362 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sampajanna Dear Amara, While we are talking about tapes. I have sent off sets to leonardo, Alex and Mike. i am going to send some to sotujanna soon. But as O is coming to Bangkok I was wondering if you had that set you mentyioned from M.P. that you were going to give to Betty and whether you could arrange for the foundation to make duplaicates for O and her group. OI chose those tapes and they have good talks by Phra Dhammadhra and Ajahn Sujin. In fact it is worth making a special set of those and distributing them from the foundation. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > I will ask Amara to > send you a > > tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your > mailing > address? > > > Dear Betty and friends, > > I know everyone thinks I have a set of the English discussion > tapes > because I edit them for the foundation, but I am sorry to say > I > haven't kept any copies for myself, so I have none at home > except > for the ones I'm working on. It would be much better to ask > the > people at the foundation to send them to you, they have very > fast > copying machines sent from America by our friends of the San > Francisco and Frsno areas, and the complete set of the tapes > already > edited, but they might have a heavy workload and might take > some > time send the tapes out. > > Having said that, especially for this group I will try to get > the > tapes to you myself, I might have to borrow the masters and > copy > them on my own inferior machine, which might get to you faster > or > not, but will not be as professionally done. By the way > Betty, I am > sending you a note off-list, so see you in a few! > > Amara > > 1363 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit'? >Dear Sarah, > >Thanks for reminding me not to get stuck in scripts and stories. >As a person who doesn't wait for praise to come from outside but >happily does it to himself, I've still got a lot of accumulations to sift >through. I can imagine that attending to moment to moment realities >will generate best course of action to be taken. But just as gold is >so hard to find in the midst of so much sand, I only hope that I can >stick with this group long enough to find enough gold, and then not >to think about staying or leaving it....See how I like to create stories? Sukin, it's good you realize they are stories...many people don't get that far and mistakes the stories for realities. It's not so much a question of sifting through accumulations as just getting to know them a little better from time to time as understanding begins to grow...If we talk about attending to 'moment to moment realities' it sounds a little like self concentrating on or trying to catch a reality. It's better not to be too 'ambitious', to study (intellectually first) about many, many realities, so they won't be confused with all those stories. Then, it's not a matter of not having the stories, but awareness can begin to be aware from time to time of a reality which is not a story. Sometimes I find "I" have been lost in a story for quite some time with no awareness and then I just laugh! >Thanks again. My image of you is that of a wise and gentle person >(another story? But it must have a good degree of truth, right?). > very occasionally to both, but thanks! (certainly not at those 'frazzled' moments!) pls do stick with this group long enough to help us all get enlightened! Sarah p.s Group, for some reason, some of my posts are being put on the list in duplicate. I hasten to add this is not because Hotmail, Egroups or I think they warrant this special attention....And I doubt the devas do either, Robert! if it doesn't correct soon, I'll change the server. meanwhile my apologies to you all. >Anumoddhana, >Sukin. > > >Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > Dear Sukin, > > > > sorry, the last one just zapped off on its own...not only yours that do > > that, Robert! > > > > I was thinking back to this post of yours, Sukin, and I fully agree with > > what Robert replied....No rules, O.K! > > > > If you feel like 'sitting', fine! If you feel like karaoke, fine! No >one is > > saying there can't be understanding while 'sitting'. Like Robert >suggested, > > you may feel less bothered about it as understanding grows. Sometimes >we > > may decide to do X and just when we're about to start, end up doing Y. >It > > just depends on conditions again. We think WE need to make decisions, >but > > these are conditioned too! Robert wrote a good paragraph about how >whether > > things go right or wrong doesn't depend on 'my' decisions. > > > > Realities and results are very complex and wondering about whether your > > 'sitting' will hinder the development of understanding doesn't help. >Just > > know it as another moment of thinking and leave it to conditions as to > > whether you 'sit' or not at any given time. I suspect that the more > > understanding there is of anatta, the less inclined you'll be to 'sit' >for > > your meditation...but not by forcing a change of lifestyle. The same >does > > not apply to karaoke because there is no idea of it helping one's >practice! > > > > Let us know how it goes. If you have the idea of putting your feet in >two > > boats, it's just that: an idea! When there is the idea of listening to > > another aspect of your 'being', again it's just another story or idea! > > > > Best wishes, > > Sarah > > > > Dear Robert, > > >I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'. > > >Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet > > >in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be > > >actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The > > >activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'. > > >Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'? > > >Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna > > >to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of > > >a vague understanding and seeming logical inference? > > > > > >Sukin. > > >PS: I liked your; > > > > > > > Each moment, right now, is a new life - > > > > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional > > > > death happens it will be just like this. > > > > > >'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy > > >to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as > > >opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much > > >taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks. > > > > > > > > 1364 From: protectID=Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:02pm Subject: Re: colour/paticcasamupada Dear Jonothan, Thank you for sharing the information. Last night, before going to bed, I opened my Majjhima Nikaya volume the first time since ordering from Amazon.com a few months ago, searching for No. 148. It's there! I will re-read it so that I can understand it better. By then, maybe I'll understand what it says better to compare it with the Abhidhamma notes. Metta, Alex --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Alex > > I've just found the passage I had in mind. It is in > the Discourse on the Six Senses (Majjhima Nikaya > No.148). It says- > > 'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and > visible object, the meeting of the three is contact > ...' > > It then goes on to explain about akusala with regard > to the experiences through the eye door. And then the > same for the other doorways. > > As you can see, the treatment here, being a sutta, is > slightly different. > > Jonothan > > > > --- A T wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > > > I've just looked up the information in my last > > year Abhidhamma notes. > > > > Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness > > 1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye > > 2. ruparammana: color as object > > 3. aloka: light > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness > > 1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear > > 2. saddarammana: sound as object > > 3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness > > 1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose > > 2. gandharammana: odor as object > > 3. vayodhatu: wind > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness > > 1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue > > 2. rasarammana: taste as object > > 3. apodhatu: water > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness > > 1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body > > 2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, > > heat/cold, > > straightness/crookedness as objects. > > 3. thaddhapathavi: earth > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Manodhatu: mind element > > 1. pancadvara: 5 doors > > 2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and > > tangibility > > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element > > 1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga > > 2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and > > dhamma > > 3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?) > > 4. manasikara: attention > > > > Regards, > > AT > > ================================================= > > >From: Jonothan Abbott > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] > > colour/paticcasamupada > > >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST) > > > > > > > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana > > (seeing > > > > consciousness) to arise. These are the > > > > cakkhupasasada > > > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa > > (colour)attention > > > > or contact (I forget which) and light. > > > > > > > > >Robert > > > > > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic. Just a > > query > > >on the four conditions mentioned above. I have > > heard > > >of there being 3 conditions namely- > > > > > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base) > > >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and > > >phassa (= contact, a cetasika) > > > > > >but not 4. Are there 4 conditions for the other > > >sense-doors also, eg for hearing? > > > > > > > Some people wonder about this because we are > > used to > > > > scientific explanations that classify colour as > > part > > > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of > > the > > > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the > > > > tiniest > > > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the > > > > fundamental > > > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use > > and I > > > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually > > talks > > > > about visible object because this is just what > > > > appears > > > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour > > or > > > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details > > of > > > > this topic, as seeing arises so often. > > > > > >It has always intrigued me that although (in > > English, > > >at least) we have specific terms for the objects > > >which are experienced through the ear and nose > > doors > > >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding > > term > > >for the object experienced through the eye door. I > > >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in > > the > > >story of the experiences throught that doorway that > > we > > >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' > > object > > >as such. So although we can, albeit at a thinking > > >level, distinguish between sound experienced > > through > > >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or > > >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, > > the > > >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the > > >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the > > case > > >of the visible object. Even if we are given the > > whole > > >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's > > >difficult to come up with any meaningful > > description. > > > > > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have > > about > > >v-o. > > > > > >Jonothan > > > > > > 1365 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:12pm Subject: Re: sampajanna > But as O is coming to Bangkok I was wondering if you had > that set you mentyioned from M.P. that you were going to give to > Betty and whether you could arrange for the foundation to make > duplaicates for O and her group. OI chose those tapes and they > have good talks by Phra Dhammadhra and Ajahn Sujin. Dear Robert, I'm sorry I don't know what set you mean in 'that set you mentioned from M.P.' > In fact it > is worth making a special set of those and distributing them > from the foundation. I think you should address the people at the foundation themselves, as I said, I only really handle the website, Amara 1366 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:24pm Subject: Re: sampajanna > Dear Robert, > > I'm sorry I don't know what set you mean in 'that set you mentioned > from M.P.' Dear Robert, I just remembered what you were talking about! I already gave Betty all of them, so if you want to send them to the foundation we can ask Betty to make copies or borrow her set and have them make copies. Amara 1367 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/paticcasamupada --- protectID wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > Thank you for sharing the information. Last > night, before going > to bed, I opened my Majjhima Nikaya volume the first > time since > ordering from Amazon.com a few months ago, searching > for No. 148. > It's there! I will re-read it so that I can > understand it better. > By then, maybe I'll understand what it says better > to compare it with > the Abhidhamma notes. Alex Good work! I am glad to have been a condition for some further reading and study. BTW, do you have Nina van Gorkom's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'? If so, the passage in question is discussed there (Chapter 16, 'Objects and Doors'). I find that Nina is able to give meaning to suttas in a way that they would never have for me by just reading the sutta on its own. Good studying! Jonothan 1368 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 0:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/paticcasamupada Dear Jonothan, Yes, I do have her Abhidhamma In Daily Life, thanks to O. I'll read Chapter 16, too. Thank you for the encouragement. Anumodanna, Alex ======= >From: Jonothan Abbott >BTW, do you have Nina van Gorkom's 'Abhidhamma in >Daily Life'? If so, the passage in question is >discussed there (Chapter 16, 'Objects and Doors'). I >find that Nina is able to give meaning to suttas in a >way that they would never have for me by just reading >the sutta on its own. > >Good studying! > >Jonothan 1369 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 0:49am Subject: tapes Dear all, I wondered what I had said to make people think I handled the tapes, and found this note to O some time ago that might have been misleading, in an earlier posting (no. 1003). I copy: From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 6:08am Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English too. > Our group should be in BKK on December 1st. > Are you going to be there as well? > It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna > intellectually in both languages. Dear O, Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are also many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can ask Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you get to Bangkok. I think you must have had a part in getting the tape copying machine for the foundation? I would recommend the tapes when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present date, starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us deeper and deeper. (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find, besides being very profound) For me it started out as a review, then I found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new things. By the way the young men who look after the taping get the casettes at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for only 20 bht.s apiece. I highly recommend them, just write to Khun Pracheun whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the foundation. Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to Thailand also, Amara As I also said somewhere, we are setting up a company to help with the foundation's shipping and handling and printing of books, but for now not the tapes, which are done separately by a group of young people, for their own profit. I have nothing to do with them except that they can't edit the tapes as they don't know much English. But as I said, if any of our friends here would like me to get copies for you, I will do so willingly, and have done, for free. Amara 1370 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 4:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sampajanna Dear Amara, I'm planning to buy a good recorder of some kind, to help out with learning pali and Thai. I don't know much about this technology, but I wonder if a digital recorder might be useful to the group? I'd be very happy to bear the expense. My idea is that, if I could somehow record the tapes digitally and save them as sound files of some kind, maybe I could FTP them to the site, and others could download them directly to their computers and eliminate the neccesity of recording more tapes and physically mailing them? If anyone knows this technology well enough to comment on this idea, please do let me know off-list. Thanks, mn --- amara chay wrote: > > > I will ask Amara to > send you a > > tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she > have your mailing > address? > > > Dear Betty and friends, > > I know everyone thinks I have a set of the English > discussion tapes > because I edit them for the foundation, but I am > sorry to say I > haven't kept any copies for myself, so I have none > at home except > for the ones I'm working on. It would be much > better to ask the > people at the foundation to send them to you, they > have very fast > copying machines sent from America by our friends of > the San > Francisco and Frsno areas, and the complete set of > the tapes already > edited, but they might have a heavy workload and > might take some > time send the tapes out. > > Having said that, especially for this group I will > try to get the > tapes to you myself, I might have to borrow the > masters and copy > them on my own inferior machine, which might get to > you faster or > not, but will not be as professionally done. By the > way Betty, I am > sending you a note off-list, so see you in a few! > > Amara > > 1371 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes Dear Amara, I know you don't handle the tapes but it is difficult for me to contact the people at the foundation whereas when you visit there you can explain directly to them what we want, if you have time. Dear Mike, I think it seems like a very good idea about a digital recorder. Let us know how it works and how to put it on the web. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear all, > > I wondered what I had said to make people think I handled the > tapes, > and found this note to O some time ago that might have been > misleading, in an earlier posting (no. 1003). I copy: > > > > > From: amara chay > Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 6:08am > Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > > > It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English > too. > > Our group should be in BKK on December 1st. > > Are you going to be there as well? > > It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna > > intellectually in both languages. > > > Dear O, > > Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are > also > many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can > ask > Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you > get to > Bangkok. I think you must have had a part in getting the tape > > copying machine for the foundation? I would recommend the > tapes > when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present > date, > starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us > deeper and > deeper. (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find, > besides > being very profound) For me it started out as a review, then > I > found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new > things. > By the way the young men who look after the taping get the > casettes > at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for > only 20 > bht.s apiece. I highly recommend them, just write to Khun > Pracheun > whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the > foundation. > > Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to > Thailand > also, > > Amara > > > > As I also said somewhere, we are setting up a company to help > with > the foundation's shipping and handling and printing of books, > but > for now not the tapes, which are done separately by a group of > young > people, for their own profit. I have nothing to do with them > > except that they can't edit the tapes as they don't know much > English. But as I said, if any of our friends here would like > me to > get copies for you, I will do so willingly, and have done, for > free. > > Amara > > 1372 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes wrote: > I think it seems like a very good idea about a > digital recorder. > Let us know how it works and how to put it on the > web. Will do. If I haven't had any technical advice by this weekend, I'll proceed on my own. I can't help thinking that all these mechanics shouldn't be necessary when all we're really dealing with is a bunch of little electromagnetic plusses and minusses--but then you know my weakness for simplicity... mn 1373 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Dear Betty, You really DID make it to Amara's satipatthana Paris nightclub! --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > But once the performance > was over, the > realization of the impermanence of the aramana > coming through the sense > doors hit with a bang (thank 'heaven' for those 'bangs'...) > and I was thus forcefully > reminded once again that all > conditioned realities are anatta, anicca and dukkha. > Places like the Lido, > Las Vegas (there are 2 Thai Buddhist temples there) > and karaoke bars are > great for panna to arise, provided sati and > sampajanna arise as well. I can only look forward to the time that sati, sampajanna and panna arise with the present moment, rather than with the retrospective 'bang'... Anumodanaa, mn 1374 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Betty, --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Mn, > Many thanks for your question, for it is one we all > grapple (if that's the > correct word) (it certainly is for me...) > with. How is the effort of a meditator > different from that of > one practicing vipassana/satipatthana? > I think the answer lies in sampajanna. If sati > arises in the course of > pondering, not just aimless thinking, but real > pondering on a particular > question, text, quote, etc, and the 4 sampajanna are > conditioned to arise, > then panna will also arise. If panna does indeed > arise, then it is like a > kind of test or method of checking whether the > practise is correct. My problem is, how will I tell panna from lobha arising with micchaditthi? This can be so strong, and SO pleasant! It's no wonder misguided monastics are willing to give up sex (etc.) for it... > If one > meditates in the conventional manner and no panna > seems to arise under those > conditions, then the practice is not correct. But, > on the other hand, if > pondering does indeed become the condition for sati, > then conditioning > sampajanna to arise, which then conditions panna to > arise, then it is > correct, it is being proven. I am EXTREMELY doubtful of 'my' ability to make that judgement, at present. > This is the way I understand it. Please comment and > correct me if there is > wrong view here. I can only hope for the day when I might be able to correct ANYONE on this list. Thanks, mn 1375 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Jonothan, Thanks for the response. Just catching up on my correspondence... --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on your point > (b), so allow me to say that, if I understand you > correctly, you are spot on here. Kusala dhammas can > only arise to the extent (both as to frequency and > intensity) that they have been developed. There is > no > point in trying to 'have' any particular form of > kusala or to 'use' it as a tool for whatever > purpose. Yes, that was my point--though 'my' grasp of it is superficial and elementary, at best. > There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is > kusala. This was so before we became interested in > the dhamma, and remains so now. This is because we > have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala. > This > is not something to be seen as a cause for regret, > but > simply something to accept and face up to. Understood... > It takes courage to do this, since it goes against > all > our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to > what spiritual development is all about. TELL me about it. I thought I had a remodel job on my hands, then discovered I had to demolish the whole house. Once I was ready to rebuild, I found I had to dynamite the foundations. Now I think I might have to move out of state... > But once > accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it > means that we don't really expect anything other > than > akusala. Yes, I did find that a liberating idea--for a while... > And once we understand that the task is > not > to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties > (including the akusala ones) as they are, we realise > that it doesn't really matter anyway. Understood. And thanks, very much. mn 1376 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > if I was looking at a beautiful > woman, and > suddenly I began seeing that object as being > composed of > parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha > that > initially arose? I THINK it depends on whether or not you were really aware of those rupa, or were TRYING to be aware of them (rather than actually being aware of the nama of trying, or whatever)... > And since cetana is also not-self, > what can be > done? I concluded that present cetana would > condition future > cetana, and at this point I left it to 'dhamma'. > Perhaps I was > and am avoiding something and would like to hear > comments > from group members on this. But I don't have the > feeling of > being caught in a vicious circle as you do. I'm glad, and I hope you're right. > I > somehow feel > that even though my understanding is only > intellectual at > this point, I have no other recourse than to read, > consider > and discuss ...that's the best conclusion I've been able to arrive at, too--but I have little faith in it, at present... Thanks so much for the thoughtful response! mn 1377 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Mike, I like this comment --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > > > if I was looking at a beautiful > > woman, and > > suddenly I began seeing that object as being > > composed of > > parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha > > that > > initially arose? > > I THINK it depends on whether or not you were really > aware of those rupa, or were TRYING to be aware of > them (rather than actually being aware of the nama of > trying, or whatever)... This is really good. I look forward to having you correct my little (or large) errors in the future - in your relaxed and friendly way. Robert 1378 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Sukin, --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > I also thought besides having cetana of tackling > the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached > to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may > be > 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel > stuck. I can only offer one reflection, one that 'I' 'used' before encountering this group. I'm pretty well convinced now that everything I ever thought before was wrong, but here it almost is, for what it's worth: There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29", but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my PTS Digha Nikaya. Anyway, in this discourse, two men are described, walking along a path. One of them (the smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to pick up something of greater value--starting, if memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and eventually to gold. The other (dumb one) sticks with his hemp (or whatever). I used to take this to mean that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent) that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then, as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes slowly a little less rotten. In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of 'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in this notion--I really just offer it here as the best I've ever been able to come up with. > But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!? > What cetana has arisen and what will arise? > It does seem circular now. > Help someone! I have no idea. Wish I could help, and sorry if my akusala musings contributed to leading you into this ugly cul-de-sac... Good luck, mate... mn 1379 From: shinlin Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:22am Subject: Bonjour !!(quoting for friends who have just came back from France) Dear Sukin, Thanks a million for your help last week during the dhamma talk. You really woke me up from this "SELF regrets of the arising of Akusula dhammas ". It is a very dangerous position to be in this Lobha Self consciousness, regreting why so much akusula and not being able to get rid of it and not wanting it to arise in the future. After what you have said, I have realized that there was just too much accumulations of Self that SELF can not help Self. AND so the best thing is to really discuss it with Dhamma Friends. Thanks alot for telling me directly... I really need it. Anumodana.. Shin 1380 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:56am Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro > Have you used the design somewhere or someplace? How did > you become interested in Buddhist Iconography, by the way? Dear Mary, The reason I asked is that I look after the website , affiliated with the foundation as well as this group, and am always looking for beautiful things to use there, and it has become a sort of habit. Sorry if I sound too inquisitive, Amara 1381 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:12am Subject: Re: sampajanna > I don't know > much about this technology, but I wonder if a digital > recorder might be useful to the group? I'd be very > happy to bear the expense. My idea is that, if I > could somehow record the tapes digitally and save them > as sound files of some kind, maybe I could FTP them to > the site, and others could download them directly to > their computers and eliminate the neccesity of > recording more tapes and physically mailing them? Dear Mike, That would be so wonderful! I don't know much about sound files except that there are MP3s and MIDIs and the former is MUCH larger (about 1,500k/song) whereas the latter is about 30k/song, but with lesser quality of course. Other than that I'm as ignorant as anything in this matter. But one person on this list who has helped me find all the right necessities on the web is Tom Westheimer, please contact him at and he most probably will be able to point you in the right direction. Please keep me posted! Amara 1382 From: shinlin Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight Thankyou for your revision. Anumodana. shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight | Dear Friends in Dhamma, | Amara has asked me to explain what Achaan Sujin taught us concerning | Sampajanna (n with Spanish tilde on top). Her translations of the terms in | English are different from the ones usually found in most dhamma books and | Pali dictionaries, but her explanation greatly clarified the meaning and | intent of sampajanna. | | The following explanation is merely an intellectual understanding. It is | hoped that when the conditions are right, that each of the 4 sampajanna will | arise, leading to a clear understanding of this process for me (sorry one | has to use that self word). | | The term means clear comprehension and it is one of the steps, so to speak, | of satipatthana. When sati arises, it will then lead to Sampajanna. This in | turn becomes the condition for panna to arise. There are 4 types or levels | of sampajanna: | 1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance: | clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this | understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think | deeply, about whatever question arises. | 2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would | understand whether one is ready to understand or not. | 3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear comprehension | of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door | processes. | 4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At this | point, panna would then arise. | Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in the | process of satipatthana. | | Please forgive me if my understanding is a bit shaky and help correct any | misunderstanding I may have of this. | | With metta, | Betty | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| | 1383 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) > TELL me about it. I thought I had a remodel job on my > hands, then discovered I had to demolish the whole > house. Once I was ready to rebuild, I found I had to > dynamite the foundations. Now I think I might have to > move out of state... Dear Mike, Don't worry, you're in good company! We'll keep one another company for quite a while yet, I think, and help each other as best we can along the way. At least we are heading in the right direction and have begun to understand realities as they really are. And we can keep studying, even as we think and plan and read and type, all the different realities that could add to your experience of the different characteristics of conditioned sankhara that appear at all times. Remember what it felt like to be completely ignorant of them? That's how far you have come in so short a time! Congratulations and anumodana, Amara 1384 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:38am Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear > There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29", > but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my > PTS Digha Nikaya. Anyway, in this discourse, two men > are described, walking along a path. One of them (the > smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to > pick up something of greater value--starting, if > memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp > thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and > eventually to gold. The other (dumb one) sticks with > his hemp (or whatever). I used to take this to mean > that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent) > that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best > of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then, > as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes > slowly a little less rotten. > > In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of > 'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in > this notion--I really just offer it here as the best > I've ever been able to come up with. Dear Mike, I think it is something like the wisdom to know the value of things and to discard whatever is necessary to take on better things, not only because one can only carry so much but because one could be so attached to whatever one lugs around: even for beings born in hell would have as first vithi citta lobha, the pleasure in being born. Of course they would not know any better, but even in this world people sometimes have a fear for the unknown and prefer to think that whatever is theirs is better than the others, especially in metaphysical matters. Anyway, it's a great reminder to me, thanks for posting it- and looking forward to corrections from you too! Anumodana, Amara 1385 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 0:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Mn, Trust your own judgement: you will know when panna arises and the difference between it and lobha. For along with the good feeling will also be a deep understanding that can only come with panna. You can't force it, it will come of its own accord and it will NOT be micchidittha. If you constantly doubt, and are not sure, then probably it is micchidittha at that moment. But later, if the conditions are right, panna will arise. Trust it to do so and relax. It will come when you least expect it. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear > Dear Betty, > > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > wrote: > > > Dear Mn, > > Many thanks for your question, for it is one we all > > grapple (if that's the > > correct word) > > (it certainly is for me...) > > > with. How is the effort of a meditator > > different from that of > > one practicing vipassana/satipatthana? > > I think the answer lies in sampajanna. If sati > > arises in the course of > > pondering, not just aimless thinking, but real > > pondering on a particular > > question, text, quote, etc, and the 4 sampajanna are > > conditioned to arise, > > then panna will also arise. If panna does indeed > > arise, then it is like a > > kind of test or method of checking whether the > > practise is correct. > > My problem is, how will I tell panna from lobha > arising with micchaditthi? This can be so strong, and > SO pleasant! It's no wonder misguided monastics are > willing to give up sex (etc.) for it... > > > If one > > meditates in the conventional manner and no panna > > seems to arise under those > > conditions, then the practice is not correct. But, > > on the other hand, if > > pondering does indeed become the condition for sati, > > then conditioning > > sampajanna to arise, which then conditions panna to > > arise, then it is > > correct, it is being proven. > > I am EXTREMELY doubtful of 'my' ability to make that > judgement, at present. > > > This is the way I understand it. Please comment and > > correct me if there is > > wrong view here. > > I can only hope for the day when I might be able to > correct ANYONE on this list. > > Thanks, > > mn > > > > 1386 From: Mary Reinard Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:16pm Subject: Amara and the Lotus Dear Amara, Absolutely not too inquisitive, see what I mean about taking my time to respond? This design is not used in this form, however I have used it on CD lables as far as the lotus only. And a version of the lotus is used as our wee Buddhist center's logo. If you'd like to use this particular lotus design, please accept this invitation to do just that. I have a Buddha you may like as well. Let me know if you'd like a peak. Or, if you would like something specific for your Dhamma page, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Metta, Mary 1387 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Amara and the Lotus >If you'd like to use this >particular lotus design, please accept this invitation to do just >that. I have a Buddha you may like as well. Let me know if you'd like >a peak. Or, if you would like something specific for your Dhamma >page, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Dear Mary, Yes, please! And thank you so much for your generous offer! I'll continue off list, so please keep an eye out for my note, Amara 1388 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Sukin and Mn, I'm not sure which one of you wrote the quote below, but could you explain it again because I don't understand what you're getting at. But, upon reading it again, if I understand what you mean, you sound like you are facing uncertainty. Just relax, keep pondering the question and, if the conditions are right, sati, sampajanna and panna will arise the the solution to the problem will become clear. Be patient and trusting. But if your mind is in turmoil (dhosa) then the conditions for panna to arise will not be there. Just "go with the flow", so to speak, and when you least expect it, understanding will occur. Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID > > --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > > > I also thought besides having cetana of tackling > > the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached > > to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may > > be > > 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel > > stuck. Betty But, below is my interpretation of the "story" in the sutta that you quoted, it may or may not be what the Buddha and the suttas intended for the interpretation. However, as I understand the sutta with the story of the 2 monks walking, one picking up a series of objects, each getting more and more valuable, while the other just stuck with one object he picked up, may be the following: The second monk, who only stuck with his hemp, is like a person with micchaditthi. When we have michaditthi, I think, we tend to stay with one train of thought and never really progress anywhere, i.e., never have panna arising with ever increasing understanding. Whereas the first monk, picking up a series of objects of ever increasing value, is like a person whose conditions are there for sati, sampajanna and panna to arise, ever increasing his understanding and changing his viewpoint. What do you think? with metta, Betty > 1389 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear Friends, I have typed some phrases which I translated from the Book (sinhalese) 'vangchaka dhamma saha cittopakkilesa dhamma' which was compassionately written by Rerukane Chandavimala MahaThera. Pls bear in mind that I am not a good translator. Dear Jonathan, about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala dhammas, can you give us more info about this? (Thanks) format [Vangchaka akusala dhamma -> cheats as #kusala dhamma] Lobha -> cheats as # paratthakamatha ( liking to serve for the welfare for others) # dathukamatha ( liking to donate) #kruthagnatha ( not forgetting the help previously got, gratitude ) #apacitikamatha ( showing gratitude for teachers...) #anukulatha ( obeying ) #nekkammatha ( getting rid of material possessions) #dhammadesanakamatha ( liking to preach ) #shikshakamatha ( liking for virtue ) #alpecchatha ( living with minimal requirements ) #vicheyyadanatha ( donating after examining the facts ) #santhuttitha ( being satisfied with what is possessed or achieved ) #paranuddayatha ( forgot this meaning) #punyakamatha ( liking to do meritorious deeds) to catch these one has to see whether they stay the same when conditions differ. ie. does the liking to donate still exist when the returns and praises are minimal.? are we showing the gratitude to expecting something in return....... Raga -> cheats as #metta ( loving kindness, amity ) #karuna( compassion) #saddha (confidence, faith) [this is regarding (confidence on) individual bhikkus or teachers] the person will give in to the disguised raga , mistaking as he's cultivating mettha etc.. Dosa -> cheats as #khanti #avihimsa #nekkammatha #mithabhanitha(talking minimally ) #paapagarahatha ( insulting the sinful deeds ) #patikkulasanna( contemplation of filthyness) #aniccasanna( contemplation on impermanence) egs- when seeing a snake attacking a pray, one feels sorry for the pray and may attack the snake thinking hes saving the pray from the violence(himsa) done by the snake. ( applies for most right-fighters) Mana -> cheats as #nihathamanatha ( modesty ) #gnana ( knowing ) the one who practices to get rid of mana , sometimes ends up in a nested mana where he takes pride in his 'less-mana' ness , and feels hostile towards people who have mana. thina middha -> cheat(s) as #samadhi #papaviramanatha #gnana #paratthakamatha #alpecchatha eg- I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others I will let others do it and get merit for themselves. Kukkucca -> cheats as #karuna #shikshakamatha #punnakamatha egs- Oh, I should have cultivated this virtue earlier. Oh, what a pity that they had to suffer like this Ditti , mana, vichikicca cheat as knowledge, everyone who has a ditthi(view) about something thinks that it is the right wisdom, right knowledge. Who has mana ( wrong measurement ) thinks it is right evaluation and wisdom. Whos in doubt , thinks this is his knowledge and this inquiring is due to his wisdom. according to Netthippakarana Atthakatha there are 38 vangchaka dhammas which trouble yogins. some of them are.. kamacchanda cheats as apatikkula sanna vyapada cheats as patikkula sanna thina midda cheats as samadhi uddhacca cheats as viriya - [ 'thinkers' are really cheated this way ] kukkuccha cheats as shikshakamatha vichikicca cheats as ubhayapakkha santhirana [as looking at 'both sides of the story' or [ie. after I really get to know what this is, I will practice dhamma] sammoha cheats as itthanittha samupekkhana [ one treats everything equally , oblivious to the nature of them] karunavirahitha cheats as viratthatha [ compassion-less ness cheats as lust-less ness] pahasa cheats as mudithavihara [ lusty-rapture cheats as muditha ] kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittha chandatha cheats as upekkhavihara [ the decreased desire for the wholesome deeds and dhamma cheats as equinamity] { Robert, this one is what you pointed out, I think} 1390 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sampajanna Betty, many thanks and yes she does.. Sarah > >Dear Sarah, >Great lobha feeling to know that my explanation of sampajanna was helpful >to >you. That is basically what Achaan said, but I will ask Amara to send you a >tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your mailing address? >__________________________ >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road >Bangkok 10900, Thailand >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 >protectID> > > > > 1391 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 2:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Sarah, Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha's panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex all the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and my understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the followings: for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta: vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways: sahajata (conascence condition) sampayutta (association) annamanna (mutuality) nisaya (support) indariya (chief in its functions?) atti (still there?) avicata (not gone yet?) possibly vipaka (results) phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways: sahajata (conascence condition) sampayutta (association) annamanna (mutuality) nisaya (support) ahara (brings forth results?) atti (still there?) avicata (not gone yet?) possibly vipaka (results) phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object) possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara) possibly asevana (repeating in javana) possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise) possibly aramana (as sense object) possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?) possibly natti (not there?) possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?) I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa in the following ways: pacchajat (postnascence), sampayitta (association) As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate? Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn more about pacaya. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: >This is not to say that the > phassa > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at this > moment. If > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata paccaya > (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd think > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but i'd need > to give > all this more thought! There are also many conditions which would > link the > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by > pacchajat > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition) > conditions > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very fascinating, but > I'm only > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert! > > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how paticca > > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta through > last > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain > just a > single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to get a > little > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the > development of > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual and > usually > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about avijja...(sorry, > I can't > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until avijja > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with the > citta > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta (when we > say > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those moments as > anusaya > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala citta has > passed..... > > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the matter and > I'm > not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. Pls > correct > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see that > some of > us are a little slow.... > > Sarah > 1392 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes DearRobert. We've also said we'd like to make a contribution to cover the cost of making English tapes, editing (if need be) and posting tapes and books from Bkk to anyone overseas, so recovering small costs etc is not a consideration...but it seems this is not simple. We cannot make a donation especially for a given purpose and there needs to be someone to do the work. It seems there is a big backlog at present. I plan to raise the subject when i'm in Bkk with Elle, Khun Douangduen and others....just takes time to get systems organised. I know Amara is fully stretched and would prefer not to get too involved in this side. Someone else may be able to coordinate it in due course. Anumodana w/regard to yr helping sending tapes out meanwhile! Personally, I find some of the early tapes with Khun Sujin, Phra D and the other monks to be some of the best (even tho' quality is not great). mike, look f/w to hearing how yr tape plans work out. Sarah > >Dear Amara, >I know you don't handle the tapes but it is difficult for me to >contact the people at the foundation whereas when you visit >there you can explain directly to them what we want, if you have >time. >Dear Mike, >I think it seems like a very good idea about a digital recorder. >Let us know how it works and how to put it on the web. >Robert 1393 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bonjour !!(quoting for friends who have just came back from France) Dear Shin, You are giving credit to me for a habitual response which has been in the past, more harmful than it has been useful(if it ever had). Why do you think for instance, Betty, or Amara, or Acharn did not respond? How many people you know in the group who would 'tell directly'? Today I told you something directly that happened not to be abusive, but tomorrow you might have to'bear some abuses'. I am not saying that I am likely to abuse you, what I want to say, is that there was no panna present at the time of making my statement. It was lobha, moha and dosa all at work. I wanted to comment but didn't get a chance to, when you stated earlier about having studied abhidhamma on your own for three years and not gaining anything from it, I wanted to say that your hard work would definitely one day bear fruit, and when that day comes I will hear many many wise words from you. Believe me, your understanding is due to your own accumulated good kamma, otherwise you might have not liked my direct response. Besides having written this post itself reflects your wholesome tendencies. Thanks anyway for giving me the credit, it came at a time when I was not feeling too good about myself. Anumoddhana, Sukin. shinlin wrote: > Dear Sukin, Thanks a million for your help last week during the > dhamma talk. You really woke me up from this "SELF regrets of the > arising of Akusula dhammas ". It is a very dangerous position to be in > this Lobha Self consciousness, regreting why so much akusula and not > being able to get rid of it and not wanting it to arise in the future. > After what you have said, I have realized that there was just too much > accumulations of Self that SELF can not help Self. AND so the best > thing is to really discuss it with Dhamma Friends. Thanks alot for > telling me directly... I really need it.Anumodana..Shin > > > eGroups Sponsor > 1394 From: shinlin Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 4:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes Dear Sarah, The problem can be solved by expanding more memory into our website. Then as for our part in Thailand, we can decode the dhamma discussion into MP3. IF anybody in abroad need to listen to the dhamma talk, they can down load the MP3 into their computer. This is the only fast and easier solution, then sending tapes. The only thing, we have to do is raise a fund to provide more memory space in the website. This we have to ask K. Amara about the matter. with metta, shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes | DearRobert. | | We've also said we'd like to make a contribution to cover the cost of making | English tapes, editing (if need be) and posting tapes and books from Bkk to | anyone overseas, so recovering small costs etc is not a consideration...but | it seems this is not simple. | | We cannot make a donation especially for a given purpose and there needs to | be someone to do the work. It seems there is a big backlog at present. I | plan to raise the subject when i'm in Bkk with Elle, Khun Douangduen and | others....just takes time to get systems organised. | | I know Amara is fully stretched and would prefer not to get too involved in | this side. Someone else may be able to coordinate it in due course. | | Anumodana w/regard to yr helping sending tapes out meanwhile! Personally, I | find some of the early tapes with Khun Sujin, Phra D and the other monks to | be some of the best (even tho' quality is not great). | | mike, look f/w to hearing how yr tape plans work out. | | Sarah | | | | | | 1395 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 5:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Mike, Thanks for your response. I need to think over what you have written and do not want to misinterpret it, but I have a feeling that it is relavent to my position. If I am unable to make a satisfactory interpretation, I will write again. Anumoddhana, Sukin. ps: don't worry about putting me in a cul-de-sac.The earlier I find myself in such a position the better, isn't it? "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > > > I also thought besides having cetana of tackling > > the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached > > to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may > > be > > 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel > > stuck. > > I can only offer one reflection, one that 'I' 'used' > before encountering this group. I'm pretty well > convinced now that everything I ever thought before > was wrong, but here it almost is, for what it's worth: > > There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29", > but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my > PTS Digha Nikaya. Anyway, in this discourse, two men > are described, walking along a path. One of them (the > smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to > pick up something of greater value--starting, if > memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp > thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and > eventually to gold. The other (dumb one) sticks with > his hemp (or whatever). I used to take this to mean > that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent) > that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best > of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then, > as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes > slowly a little less rotten. > > In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of > 'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in > this notion--I really just offer it here as the best > I've ever been able to come up with. > > > But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!? > > What cetana has arisen and what will arise? > > It does seem circular now. > > Help someone! > > I have no idea. Wish I could help, and sorry if my > akusala musings contributed to leading you into this > ugly cul-de-sac... > > Good luck, mate... > > mn > > 1396 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 5:17pm Subject: Re: to 'sit' or not to 'sit'? Dear Sarah, Thanks for your advise and your encouragement. As of now, my main problem is to tune myself into the way of thought which you and other members do so easily. I feel like a radio with a bad antenna having a hard time tuning into this frequency. Anyway I shall always keep in mind Buddhas advise about 'associating with the wise' with the hope that one day I might begin to see. Pleasure knowing you, even it be with this muddled mind. Anummodhana, Sukin. --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > >Dear Sarah, > > > >Thanks for reminding me not to get stuck in scripts and stories. > >As a person who doesn't wait for praise to come from outside but > >happily does it to himself, I've still got a lot of accumulations to sift > >through. I can imagine that attending to moment to moment realities > >will generate best course of action to be taken. But just as gold is > >so hard to find in the midst of so much sand, I only hope that I can > >stick with this group long enough to find enough gold, and then not > >to think about staying or leaving it....See how I like to create stories? > > Sukin, it's good you realize they are stories...many people don't get that > far and mistakes the stories for realities. It's not so much a question of > sifting through accumulations as just getting to know them a little better > from time to time as understanding begins to grow...If we talk about > attending to 'moment to moment realities' it sounds a little like self > concentrating on or trying to catch a reality. It's better not to be too > 'ambitious', to study (intellectually first) about many, many realities, so > they won't be confused with all those stories. Then, it's not a matter of > not having the stories, but awareness can begin to be aware from time to > time of a reality which is not a story. Sometimes I find "I" have been lost > in a story for quite some time with no awareness and then I just laugh! > > > >Thanks again. My image of you is that of a wise and gentle person > >(another story? But it must have a good degree of truth, right?). > > > > very occasionally to both, but thanks! (certainly not at those 'frazzled' > moments!) > > pls do stick with this group long enough to help us all get enlightened! > > Sarah > 1397 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 6:55pm Subject: Re: tapes > This we have to ask K. Amara about the matter. Dear Shin, If you ask me, I think we have enough space for a trial period, if Mike wants to experiment, we still have half the site empty. If we get to three quarters full we might start looking around, but as it is no need for any additional space, we also have other, older experimental sites already in our name and not in use. In short, space is not a problem at the moment, so what we need is a good program for Mike to work with, perhaps using the tapes already sent by Robert What do you think? Amara 1398 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear gayan, I am so impressed with this! It is very helpful and these matters are rarely explained. (It already helps me to see a few of those cheating dhammas in myself) Did the venerable give extra comments about these things? I have the nettipakarana but the atthakattha has yet to be translated into English (maybe you could be the one to do it..?) You have a great advantage knowing singhalese (and we have an advantage having you on this discussion list). This is the type of material that will interest Nina van Gorkom; I will send a copy of your letter to her. Thank you very much. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > I have typed some phrases which I translated from the Book > (sinhalese) > 'vangchaka dhamma saha cittopakkilesa dhamma' which was > compassionately > written by > Rerukane Chandavimala MahaThera. > > Pls bear in mind that I am not a good translator. > > Dear Jonathan, > > about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala dhammas, > can you give us more info about this? (Thanks) > > > > > format > [Vangchaka akusala dhamma -> cheats as #kusala dhamma] > > Lobha -> cheats as > > # paratthakamatha ( liking to serve for the welfare for > others) > # dathukamatha ( liking to donate) > #kruthagnatha ( not forgetting the help previously got, > gratitude ) > #apacitikamatha ( showing gratitude for teachers...) > #anukulatha ( obeying ) > #nekkammatha ( getting rid of material possessions) > #dhammadesanakamatha ( liking to preach ) > #shikshakamatha ( liking for virtue ) > #alpecchatha ( living with minimal requirements ) > #vicheyyadanatha ( donating after examining the facts ) > #santhuttitha ( being satisfied with what is possessed or > achieved ) > #paranuddayatha ( forgot this meaning) > #punyakamatha ( liking to do meritorious deeds) > > to catch these one has to see whether they stay the same when > conditions > differ. > ie. > does the liking to donate still exist when the returns and > praises are > minimal.? > are we showing the gratitude to expecting something in > return....... > > > Raga -> cheats as > > #metta ( loving kindness, amity ) > #karuna( compassion) > #saddha (confidence, faith) [this is regarding (confidence on) > individual > bhikkus or teachers] > > the person will give in to the disguised raga , mistaking as > he's > cultivating mettha etc.. > > Dosa -> cheats as > > #khanti > #avihimsa > #nekkammatha > #mithabhanitha(talking minimally ) > #paapagarahatha ( insulting the sinful deeds ) > #patikkulasanna( contemplation of filthyness) > #aniccasanna( contemplation on impermanence) > > egs- > when seeing a snake attacking a pray, one feels sorry for the > pray and may > attack the snake thinking hes saving > > the pray from the violence(himsa) done by the snake. ( applies > for most > right-fighters) > > Mana -> cheats as > > #nihathamanatha ( modesty ) > #gnana ( knowing ) > > the one who practices to get rid of mana , sometimes ends up > in a nested > mana where he takes pride in his > > 'less-mana' ness , and feels hostile towards people who have > mana. > > > thina middha -> cheat(s) as > > > #samadhi > #papaviramanatha > #gnana > #paratthakamatha > #alpecchatha > > > eg- I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others I > will let others > do it and get merit for themselves. > > > Kukkucca -> cheats as > > #karuna > #shikshakamatha > #punnakamatha > > egs- > Oh, I should have cultivated this virtue earlier. > > Oh, what a pity that they had to suffer like this > > > Ditti , mana, vichikicca cheat as knowledge, > > everyone who has a ditthi(view) about something thinks that it > is the right > wisdom, right knowledge. > Who has mana ( wrong measurement ) thinks it is right > evaluation and > wisdom. > Whos in doubt , thinks this is his knowledge and this > inquiring is due to > his wisdom. > > > > according to Netthippakarana Atthakatha there are 38 vangchaka > dhammas > which trouble yogins. > some of them are.. > > kamacchanda cheats as apatikkula sanna > vyapada cheats as patikkula sanna > thina midda cheats as samadhi > uddhacca cheats as viriya - [ 'thinkers' are really cheated > this way ] > kukkuccha cheats as shikshakamatha > vichikicca cheats as ubhayapakkha santhirana [as looking at > 'both sides of > the story' or [ie. after I really get to > > know what this is, I will practice dhamma] > sammoha cheats as itthanittha samupekkhana [ one treats > everything equally > , oblivious to the nature of them] > karunavirahitha cheats as viratthatha [ compassion-less ness > cheats as > lust-less ness] > pahasa cheats as mudithavihara [ lusty-rapture cheats as > muditha ] > kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittha chandatha cheats as upekkhavihara > [ the > decreased desire for the wholesome > > deeds and dhamma cheats as equinamity] { Robert, this one is > what you > pointed out, I think} > > > > 1399 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:14pm Subject: Re: tapes > We cannot make a donation especially for a given purpose Dear Sarah, Did Khun Sujin tell you this? Because my mother does it all the time, for example when Nina's first book was all distributed, my mother was the main person who sponsored the first reprint. You can ask Khun Sujin about this, although at that time there were no foundations. But she still did things like that even after the foundation started, in fact the reel recording machines Khun Sujin uses to edit her tapes currently are the ones my mother bought, as were the sets before that she used personally. Even now at the foundation anyone can specify how much they would like to donate towards printing books, electrical and water bills, upkeep of the grounds, etc., but without specification they go to the foundation's account. You can check with Khun Sujin whether I had asked for funds set aside, donated by ME AS A START (plus many other friends who would have joined in), for shipping and handling overseas and she said the foundation did not have a policy for that at the time, this was when the website first started. She only told me they had started the section a few days ago. Anyway I am glad you wanted to talk to the foundation people about this, things could always be improved, anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 1400 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear robert Yes, he has given explanations , descriptions and stories about the dhammas he has written in the book. here the thought arose that I should give more details about the venerable Author. The most ven. Rerukane Chandavimala , almost single-handedly made the abhidhamma popular and easy to read for the sinhala reader. He has written more than 30 invaluable books about the topics that were previously kept untouched . He wrote most of these in 1950s when the 2500th 'Buddha Jayanthi" fell, citing that firm pre-understanding is necessary for one who has 'new-found' strength, and who's trying to dig deep into the dhamma. ( thereby avoiding pitfalls). As you found this helpful , I will try to give you a broader picture of this particular book, as fully as I can . Rgds gayan 1401 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, I know very little about these most complex matters but I know they are very important. I appreciate you bringing them up with Amara and i might call on you from time to time (if you don't mind) to help out with this sort of analysis. It really is as close as one can get to dismantling the idea of self at the intellectual level. A real support for direct understanding. Anumodana Robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that > really > brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and > Buddha's > panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how > complex all > the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of > pacayas (and my > understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the > followings: > > for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta: > > vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways: > sahajata (conascence condition) > sampayutta (association) > annamanna (mutuality) > nisaya (support) > indariya (chief in its functions?) > atti (still there?) > avicata (not gone yet?) > possibly vipaka (results) > > phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways: > sahajata (conascence condition) > sampayutta (association) > annamanna (mutuality) > nisaya (support) > ahara (brings forth results?) > atti (still there?) > avicata (not gone yet?) > possibly vipaka (results) > > phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa > possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object) > possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara) > possibly asevana (repeating in javana) > possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise) > possibly aramana (as sense object) > possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?) > possibly natti (not there?) > possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?) > > I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for > vedana > arising after the phassa in the following ways: > pacchajat (postnascence), > sampayitta (association) > > As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a > rupa that > arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can > be > sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate? > > Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to > learn more > about pacaya. > > kom > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > >This is not to say that the > > phassa > > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at > this > > moment. If > > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata > paccaya > > (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also > I'd think > > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but > i'd need > > to give > > all this more thought! There are also many conditions which > would > > link the > > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) > by > > pacchajat > > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana > (repetition) > > conditions > > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very > fascinating, but > > I'm only > > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert! > > > > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about > how paticca > > > > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta > through > > last > > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used > to explain > > just a > > single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin > to get a > > little > > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is > the > > development of > > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual > and > > usually > > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about > avijja...(sorry, > > I can't > > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until > avijja > > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated > with the > > citta > > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta > (when we > > say > > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those > moments as > > anusaya > > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala > citta has > > passed..... > > > > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the > matter and > > I'm > > not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr > qu. Pls > > correct > > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will > see that > > some of > > us are a little slow.... > > > > Sarah > > > 1402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear > > Anumoddhana, > Sukin. > ps: don't worry about putting me in a cul-de-sac.The earlier I > find myself > in such a position the better, isn't it? > > Dear Sukin, That is the sort of attitude that might be classified under adittana parami and khanti parami. Your reply to Shin on the web was so nice too (as were shin's comments to you). Anumodana robert 1403 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear gayan, This has got me a little excited. If you ever did a comprehensive translation you know Amara could put it on the web page (of course it would be checked over first by a few people but based on what you have shown us it looks superb). Just an idea if you ever have time. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Dear robert > > > Yes, he has given explanations , descriptions and stories > about the dhammas he > has written in the book. > > here the thought arose that I should give more details about > the venerable > Author. > > The most ven. Rerukane Chandavimala , almost single-handedly > made the abhidhamma > popular > and easy to read for the sinhala reader. > He has written more than 30 invaluable books about the topics > that were > previously kept untouched . > He wrote most of these in 1950s when the 2500th 'Buddha > Jayanthi" fell, citing > that > firm pre-understanding is necessary for one who has > 'new-found' strength, and > who's trying to dig deep into > the dhamma. ( thereby avoiding pitfalls). > > As you found this helpful , I will try to give you a broader > picture of this > particular book, as fully as I can . > > > Rgds > gayan > > > 1405 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear Gayan, This is outstanding. It's like seeing an entire criminal gang exposed all at once--and so many shockingly familiar faces... mn --- protectID wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > I have typed some phrases which I translated from > the Book (sinhalese) > 'vangchaka dhamma saha cittopakkilesa dhamma' which > was compassionately > written by > Rerukane Chandavimala MahaThera. > > Pls bear in mind that I am not a good translator. > > Dear Jonathan, > > about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala > dhammas, > can you give us more info about this? (Thanks) > > > > > format > [Vangchaka akusala dhamma -> cheats as #kusala > dhamma] > > Lobha -> cheats as > > # paratthakamatha ( liking to serve for the welfare > for others) > # dathukamatha ( liking to donate) > #kruthagnatha ( not forgetting the help previously > got, gratitude ) > #apacitikamatha ( showing gratitude for teachers...) > #anukulatha ( obeying ) > #nekkammatha ( getting rid of material possessions) > #dhammadesanakamatha ( liking to preach ) > #shikshakamatha ( liking for virtue ) > #alpecchatha ( living with minimal requirements ) > #vicheyyadanatha ( donating after examining the > facts ) > #santhuttitha ( being satisfied with what is > possessed or achieved ) > #paranuddayatha ( forgot this meaning) > #punyakamatha ( liking to do meritorious deeds) > > to catch these one has to see whether they stay the > same when conditions > differ. > ie. > does the liking to donate still exist when the > returns and praises are > minimal.? > are we showing the gratitude to expecting something > in return....... > > > Raga -> cheats as > > #metta ( loving kindness, amity ) > #karuna( compassion) > #saddha (confidence, faith) [this is regarding > (confidence on) individual > bhikkus or teachers] > > the person will give in to the disguised raga , > mistaking as he's > cultivating mettha etc.. > > Dosa -> cheats as > > #khanti > #avihimsa > #nekkammatha > #mithabhanitha(talking minimally ) > #paapagarahatha ( insulting the sinful deeds ) > #patikkulasanna( contemplation of filthyness) > #aniccasanna( contemplation on impermanence) > > egs- > when seeing a snake attacking a pray, one feels > sorry for the pray and may > attack the snake thinking hes saving > > the pray from the violence(himsa) done by the snake. > ( applies for most > right-fighters) > > Mana -> cheats as > > #nihathamanatha ( modesty ) > #gnana ( knowing ) > > the one who practices to get rid of mana , sometimes > ends up in a nested > mana where he takes pride in his > > 'less-mana' ness , and feels hostile towards people > who have mana. > > > thina middha -> cheat(s) as > > > #samadhi > #papaviramanatha > #gnana > #paratthakamatha > #alpecchatha > > > eg- I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of > others I will let others > do it and get merit for themselves. > > > Kukkucca -> cheats as > > #karuna > #shikshakamatha > #punnakamatha > > egs- > Oh, I should have cultivated this virtue earlier. > > Oh, what a pity that they had to suffer like this > > > Ditti , mana, vichikicca cheat as knowledge, > > everyone who has a ditthi(view) about something > thinks that it is the right > wisdom, right knowledge. > Who has mana ( wrong measurement ) thinks it is > right evaluation and > wisdom. > Whos in doubt , thinks this is his knowledge and > this inquiring is due to > his wisdom. > > > > according to Netthippakarana Atthakatha there are 38 > vangchaka dhammas > which trouble yogins. > some of them are.. > > kamacchanda cheats as apatikkula sanna > vyapada cheats as patikkula sanna > thina midda cheats as samadhi > uddhacca cheats as viriya - [ 'thinkers' are really > cheated this way ] > kukkuccha cheats as shikshakamatha > vichikicca cheats as ubhayapakkha santhirana [as > looking at 'both sides of > the story' or [ie. after I really get to > > know what this is, I will practice dhamma] > sammoha cheats as itthanittha samupekkhana [ one > treats everything equally > , oblivious to the nature of them] > karunavirahitha cheats as viratthatha [ > compassion-less ness cheats as > lust-less ness] > pahasa cheats as mudithavihara [ lusty-rapture > cheats as muditha ] > kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittha chandatha cheats as > upekkhavihara [ the > decreased desire for the wholesome > > deeds and dhamma cheats as equinamity] { Robert, > this one is what you > pointed out, I think} > > 1406 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:27pm Subject: My two mothers: an improptu essay Dear all, This is not quite about the dhamma, so I appologize to those who are not interested, please don't continue, it will be a waste of time! When I was twenty I went with my mother to visit Khun Sujin, who went to one of the same schools as my mother did, but was seven years her junior, and Achaan taught me the dhamma. After which when we traveled around together, she would always continue to teach me from actual situations, and I never knew other teachers, but it was a sort of rebirth for me in another world. Until I went abroad (for my studies and later to live with my mother and sister for over ten years) she taught me, and my mother took all her extant tapes with her when we lived abroad since my sister married her university classmate and lived in Geneva, Switzerland (she and her husband still spend half the year there). Then after my mother decided to move back to Thailand, and she lunched with Khun Sujin every month, but I had always preferred to listen to her tapes and had practically never attended any of her classes. My mother was supplied with all her tapes almost as soon as they were made by the person who does most of the taping outside the foundation, a wonderful and learned gentleman, Khun Sukon, who devotes his life to the dhamma. Then one day, in September 1998 I reread the 'Summary' and asked Khun Sujin whether anyone has translated it into English because to me it is the greatest book in the world, and I was astonished that they had translated others but not this, her masterpiece (by the way the first edition bears my mother's dedication to my late father and was sent to people who attended his funeral). We were at Khun Walee's house for a dhamma discussion, (I think it was the first time she hosted one at her place which was why I went, since she and I are rather close,) during the lunch break. Khun Sujin said no, and I asked if I could do it, and she gave me permission before the whole table, including Khun Pa Nguan, and of course her sister Khun Jeed. A year later it was finished, but by April 1999 parts of it were already on the web. By then I found that others had translated it but the foundation people had misplaced the script, but no one had translated the entire book which I regard as an entity that should not be divided up, and the persons did not want to translate the complete book, for some reason. And for some reason it became my mission to share the entire book with whomever wanted to study the dhamma. This website is the product of all those who feel the same way, and is not in the least supported by the foundation, although most of the books were supplied by Tan Achaan, as were most of the dictionaries and Abhidhamma books I used for the translations. She lent me her personal copies of reference books, most of which are still here. I regard Khun Sujin as my second mother, but then I have always been a headstrong person, and I must confess that if I had been her real child, I would not have been a worse daughter, I don't really do all she wants me to, I'm much too stubborn. She told me that I should head the English section at the foundation and I refused, I only took the responsibility for the website, plenty of people wanted to be head of the English section. Which means I used to fight with her on lots of subjects, but never have I ever been angry at her, nor she at me, I don't think, come to think of it we were arguing about the best way to help people! And as Khun Jeed said, who could a child be stubborn with except with her parents! Anyway Khun Sujin couldn't know about all that goes on in the organization, she spends her time teaching and helping people and editing tapes (there are over 2000 of them! And these were only the ones from her lectures before she stopped going to Wat Boworn, there are lots others afterwards!), leaving a lot to other people (including me! Although to her I probably remained juvenile because only the other day she mused that to say that others had studied with her for ten years was already a lot, but she could not believe that I had for thirty!). Besides, as Sarah said, we need personnel to function at the foundation, although lots of improvements can still be made, and I am sure Sarah could make a difference in December! Best of luck, we all look forward to your visit! Amara 1407 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:56pm Subject: a little less frazzled! > > p.s Group, for some reason, some of my posts are being put on the >list in > > duplicate. I hasten to add this is not because Hotmail, Egroups or >I >think > > they warrant this special attention....And I doubt the devas do >either, > > Robert! if it doesn't correct soon, I'll change the server. > > >Dear Sarah, > >I wouldn't worry about it, or change servers just yet, it used to >happen to me a lot, I remember once I think I had about eight of >mine appearing, followed by another the next day or something to >that effect. I think it happened again a few days ago, in fact, so >I really think it is e-group's problem, but it's nothing harmful, >even if a bit embarrassing, but otherwise their service is so great, >I think it more than makes up for it! > >Thanks again for everything and anumodana, > >Amara > Amara, I really appreciate yr note as I am finding it embarrassing (mana, mana on the wall...) and even rather nervous to post anything...I'm rather relieved you've had the same problem but not at all sure this thought is very wholesome either!! thanks, Sarah 1408 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:45pm Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Mike This sounds like a great discourse to me. It's like, you are walking along the path, "letting go" of miccha-ditthi one moment at a time, until you arrive at the gold. Somehow I think learning about dhamma is like that, you have a lot of misconceptions at the beginning, and along the way, with the help of dhamma friends, with comparison to the discourses in the tipitika, with the comparison to the realities as they appear, panna at different levels learns moment by moment what is real and what is not. And hopefully, panna begins to let go of the "akusala" and develops more of the "kusala" as it knows the penalties and benefits of both types of dhamma. <<< mnease wrote: > There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29", but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my PTS Digha Nikaya. Anyway, in this discourse, two men are described, walking along a path. One of them (the smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to pick up something of greater value--starting, if memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and eventually to gold. The other (dumb one) sticks with his hemp (or whatever). I used to take this to mean that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent) that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then, as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes slowly a little less rotten. In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of 'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in this notion--I really just offer it here as the best I've ever been able to come up with. > But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!? > What cetana has arisen and what will arise? > It does seem circular now. > Help someone! I have no idea. Wish I could help, and sorry if my akusala musings contributed to leading you into this ugly cul-de-sac... Good luck, mate... mn 1409 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats Dear Gayan, May I join Robert in applauding your effort? I feel lucky that you are with us. With such good understanding and devoted mind, I'm sure that you'll advance far on the Path. Anumodana, Alex ====================== >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:57:35 +0600 > > > > > >Dear robert > > >Yes, he has given explanations , descriptions and stories about the dhammas >he >has written in the book. > >here the thought arose that I should give more details about the venerable >Author. > >The most ven. Rerukane Chandavimala , almost single-handedly made the >abhidhamma > popular >and easy to read for the sinhala reader. >He has written more than 30 invaluable books about the topics that were >previously kept untouched . >He wrote most of these in 1950s when the 2500th 'Buddha Jayanthi" fell, >citing >that >firm pre-understanding is necessary for one who has 'new-found' strength, >and >who's trying to dig deep into >the dhamma. ( thereby avoiding pitfalls). > >As you found this helpful , I will try to give you a broader picture of >this >particular book, as fully as I can . > > >Rgds >gayan > > 1410 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:13am Subject: Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Robert, I do not at all mind discussing the matters, as I am trying to learn more about it. It will be harder to give textual sources: all the materials I have are now 1) one book collecting A. Sujin's teachings, 2) one book as collected by A. Santi, 3) recordings of 2-year (???) worth of discussions by A. Santi, and 4) parichet discussing pacaya of which the difficulty is beyond my range. I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can discuss? kom --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Kom, > I know very little about these most complex matters but I know > they are very important. I appreciate you bringing them up with > Amara and i might call on you from time to time (if you don't > mind) to help out with this sort of analysis. It really is as > close as one can get to dismantling the idea of self at the > intellectual level. A real support for direct understanding. > Anumodana > Robert 1411 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:29am Subject: Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Dear Khun Amara, Anomudhana for your work on the website. As Khun Jack must have mentioned, he is using the materials from the website for discussions in the English class here in the bay area. From the sites, we have been able to link to many interesting links on the web, including the entire tiptika text, in Thai version. I somehow believe that choosing what you can contribute carefully is a wise thing to do. I have heard from Tan A. Sujin from somewhere, that it's good to perform sila, dana, and bhawana, as long as the cittas arising in such performance are more kusala than akusala. Maybe this would explain your "stubborness"??? Anumoddhana. kom --- "amara chay" wrote: > Dear all, > > This is not quite about the dhamma, so I appologize to those who are > not interested, please don't continue, it will be a waste of time! > > When I was twenty I went with my mother to visit Khun Sujin, who > went to one of the same schools as my mother did, but was seven > years her junior, and Achaan taught me the dhamma. After which when > we traveled around together, she would always continue to teach me > from actual situations, and I never knew other teachers, but it was > a sort of rebirth for me in another world. Until I went abroad (for > my studies and later to live with my mother and sister for over ten > years) she taught me, and my mother took all her extant tapes with > her when we lived abroad since my sister married her university > classmate and lived in Geneva, Switzerland (she and her husband > still spend half the year there). Then after my mother decided to > move back to Thailand, and she lunched with Khun Sujin every month, > but I had always preferred to listen to her tapes and had > practically never attended any of her classes. My mother was > supplied with all her tapes almost as soon as they were made by the > person who does most of the taping outside the foundation, a > wonderful and learned gentleman, Khun Sukon, who devotes his life > to the dhamma. > > Then one day, in September 1998 I reread the 'Summary' and asked > Khun Sujin whether anyone has translated it into English because to > me it is the greatest book in the world, and I was astonished that > they had translated others but not this, her masterpiece (by the > way the first edition bears my mother's dedication to my late father > and was sent to people who attended his funeral). We were at Khun > Walee's house for a dhamma discussion, (I think it was the first > time she hosted one at her place which was why I went, since she and > I are rather close,) during the lunch break. Khun Sujin said no, > and I asked if I could do it, and she gave me permission before the > whole table, including Khun Pa Nguan, and of course her sister Khun > Jeed. A year later it was finished, but by April 1999 parts of it > were already on the web. By then I found that others had translated > it but the foundation people had misplaced the script, but no one > had translated the entire book which I regard as an entity that > should not be divided up, and the persons did not want to translate > the complete book, for some reason. And for some reason it became > my mission to share the entire book with whomever wanted to study > the dhamma. > > This website is the product of all those who feel the same way, and > is not in the least supported by the foundation, although most of > the books were supplied by Tan Achaan, as were most of the > dictionaries and Abhidhamma books I used for the translations. She > lent me her personal copies of reference books, most of which are > still here. I regard Khun Sujin as my second mother, but then I > have always been a headstrong person, and I must confess that if I > had been her real child, I would not have been a worse daughter, I > don't really do all she wants me to, I'm much too stubborn. She > told me that I should head the English section at the foundation and > I refused, I only took the responsibility for the website, plenty of > people wanted to be head of the English section. Which means I used > to fight with her on lots of subjects, but never have I ever been > angry at her, nor she at me, I don't think, come to think of it we > were arguing about the best way to help people! And as Khun Jeed > said, who could a child be stubborn with except with her parents! > Anyway Khun Sujin couldn't know about all that goes on in the > organization, she spends her time teaching and helping people and > editing tapes (there are over 2000 of them! And these were only the > ones from her lectures before she stopped going to Wat Boworn, there > are lots others afterwards!), leaving a lot to other people > (including me! Although to her I probably remained juvenile because > only the other day she mused that to say that others had studied > with her for ten years was already a lot, but she could not believe > that I had for thirty!). Besides, as Sarah said, we need personnel > to function at the foundation, although lots of improvements can > still be made, and I am sure Sarah could make a difference in > December! Best of luck, we all look forward to your visit! > > Amara 1412 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:38am Subject: Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca > I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe > Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can > discuss? Dear Kom, Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat sections of the website ? There are some books and several articles by Nina, and there are at least two books not in the web that either Robert or I could send you, in fact one is in the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the site. By the way, could you comment on the 'near enemy' issue for us? I would love to hear some more details if possible, Thanks in advance, Amara 1413 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:49am Subject: Re: My two mothers: an impromptu essay > I somehow believe that choosing what you can contribute carefully is > a > wise thing to do. I have heard from Tan A. Sujin from somewhere, > that it's > good to perform sila, dana, and bhawana, as long as the cittas > arising in > such performance are more kusala than akusala. Maybe this would > explain > your "stubborness"??? Dear Khun Kom, You are much too kind! Maybe it was just laziness! Thank you any way, Amara 1414 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 4:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Dear Kom, Something in this post reminded me of another issue: --- protectID wrote: > I have heard from Tan A. Sujin > from somewhere, > that it's > good to perform sila, dana, and bhawana, as long as > the cittas > arising in > such performance are more kusala than akusala. Is this an answer to the question, 'to sit or not to sit', questions of intention, etc.? Of course, an incalculable number of citta arise and subside in the 'performance' of any act--is it skillful to assess these in retrospect, and proceed from the resultant conclusions? I do realize that this perspective still presumes 'someone' who assesses and proceeds. Still, even if that particular akusala has arisen, if other, kusala dhamma seem to have arisen with greater volume and or frequency, then is that act 'good to perform'? Or is this just more sakkyaditthi trying to rebuild its house... Thank you all for your patience, mn 1415 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 5:58am Subject: Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Khun Amara, Unfortunately, my studying in the near enemy area is virtually non- existence. I only know we are fooled easily by the similar vedana arising in both kusala and akusala, and there are warnings written in the text about "what to do" and "what not to do" when it comes to meta development because of the cheats. The posting here was the most comprehensive I have read (anumodhana). I honestly thought it was talking about me!!! I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com looking for materials specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any. Do you know of any published English texts that discusses the intricacies of the 24 pacaya (or 52, with expansions)? Thanks. kom --- "amara chay" wrote: > > > I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe > > Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can > > discuss? > > Dear Kom, > > Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat sections > of the website ? There are some books > and several articles by Nina, and there are at least two books not > in the web that either Robert or I could send you, in fact one is in > the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the site. > > By the way, could you comment on the 'near enemy' issue for us? I > would love to hear some more details if possible, 1416 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 6:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, Sorry to keep butting into your posts, but re. 'cheats', --- protectID wrote: > I honestly > thought it was > talking about me!!! I had the same feeling. And really, it WAS talking about "me", wasn't it? Anumodana, mn 1417 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- "m. nease" wrote: > > So I guess the answer is to continue to try to > cultivate conditions, in the present, for the > natural > arising of panna in the future. > > This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma: > If kusala citta arise (and subside) only > spontaneously > due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to > viriya or vayama, e.g., play? That is, is 'effort' > as > conventionally understood just an illusion? How > does > the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and > subsiding > of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator > at > the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising > with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these > dhammas are uncontrollable? > > I realize this is a different question from the > original. Hope I'm not being obtuse! Mike I don’t think you are being obtuse at all! In fact I admire the way that you continue to hone in on the important points of the messages. We are talking about something that is very difficult to convey and to grasp, because of its subtlety. The only way to grasp it properly is to keep on asking the kinds of questions you have been asking. I am conscious that my attempts at explanation are inadequate, but we all do the best we can. Yes, in a way it is all about developing the right conditions. That is as much as we can ever do anyway. What are those conditions? They may be more straightforward than we realise. There must be understanding of what can be the object of sati. These are the paramattha dhammas about which we have talked so much. They include the realities that are appearing at this very moment. There must be an understanding of the nature and function of sati. Sati if it arises studies (pays attention to) the reality now appearing. When sati does arise, nothing about the moment changes except that a level of awareness arises. It may not seem so very different from the moments that precede and follow it. Indeed, on a tape I was listening to recently, it is pointed out that in the beginning sati is weak and so the moments when sati arises may not be noticed as such. I think this is worth knowing because perhaps we are looking for something much more. Another reason why it is important to understand the nature and function of sati at an intellectual level, apart from it being a condition for the arising of sati, is so that it can be recognised when it arises. Otherwise we will take for sati what is not, or will have doubt as to whether what we experience is counterfeit sati or the real thing And there must be the repeated consideration of the teachings with a view to understanding what the Buddha was trying to convey in this regard, just as we are doing in these posts. Many people reject the need for this, saying that there is no substitute for ‘actual practice’ But this misses the point. The key to the right practice is in the teachings, not within ourselves (where wrong view reigns supreme!). I hope that tis helps to explain why we don’t have to worry about viriya, cetana and the rest. Sati is not conditioned by focusing on a particular reality, nor by any particular ‘effort’ or ‘intention’ on our part. The key that allows us to break out of the circle you describe is simply more listening to and consideration of the teachings with the right understanding at an intellectual level (initially) that helps to temporarily overcome our ever-pervasive wrong view. Jonothan 1418 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This is an intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is very readable. you can download it at www.zolag.co.uk robert > > I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com looking for > materials > specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any. Do you know of any > published > English texts that discusses the intricacies of the 24 pacaya > (or 52, > with > expansions)? > > Thanks. > > kom > --- "amara chay" > > wrote: > > > > > I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe > > > Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we > can > > > discuss? > > > > Dear Kom, > > > > Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat > sections > > of the website ? There are some > > books > > and several articles by Nina, and there are at least two > books not > > in the web that either Robert or I could send you, in fact > one is > in > > the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the site. > > > > By the way, could you comment on the 'near enemy' issue for > us? I > > would love to hear some more details if possible, > > > 1419 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:24am Subject: Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Dear Mike, I will give a 3-part answer to this question. I personally found them unsatisfactory, but I will answer, in case that you may make any sense out of it. What are my analysis of sitting/non-sitting (my opinions, be careful...): 1) Based on the experiences I have with different Buddhist groups in Thailand, who believe in different things, who claim their teachers as being a knowledgeable ones, who generally have similar comradrie as "dhamma friends", I have concluded that some of these people have to be inaccurate. Which one? I don't know. I used to analyze it comparing with what I learn in my education, my life experience, and to everyday's life situation. Unfortunately, these too are inadaquate. I have become convinced that right understandings condition the right knowledge, and therefore, it is important to first attain the right understanding. Who do you get the right understandings from? From the one whose teachings seem most profound, most matching with observable realities: the Buddha. 2) Did Buddha specifically teach the development of Vipassana by sitting down, by following a set of practices? So far, my readings show no such teaching. Knowledeable people (A. Sujin, A. Santi, people at the foundation, people in thise group) say no. 3) Was I attached to the sitting? Absolutely. Do I learn more/ understand more about realities while sitting? Absolutely not. 4) There is enough wrong view that I have. Do I need to add another one? No. What would I say to a friend trying to make up his mind/make decisions on jumbled set of information that cannot be all ascertained (in a worldly situation)? You can't forever second guess yourself: take the best set of information you have and make a decision on it, knowing that you may be wrong, and that you will have to correct the decision. What would I say to a dhamma friend trying to make such a decision? Intention (cetana) arises with all cittas, and are particularly strong in javana cittas as it contributes more than one kamma pacaya (sahajata and nanakaniga-kamma). You always have an intention, whether you like it or not. There is absolutely no-self in poramattha dhamma, even when "you" are thinking there is "self": the citta is experiencing "self" as aramana and the self is unreal. Only panna knows what is suitable for one, and not the other; the self doesn't know, as it is unreal. Panna is accumulative: as it understands more and experiences more the realities, it knows what dhamma has benefits and what dhamma has bad effects and therefore, condition other cittas and cetasikas to arise. How does panna gets accumulated? By listening, understanding, and knowing the realities as they are. Who's a good source for listening and helping to understand realities as they are? The Buddha and those who teach his teachings. I would say: look for people who teach what Buddha taught exactly without adding their own opinion. What the teacher teaches must be verifable through the tipitkas. If it cannot be verified, then it is not Buddha's teaching, and you know it. What "you" and "I" understand and know now will not be all correct: you eliminate all micha-dithi only when maggha citta arises. Therefore, "your" function (citta, cetasikas, rupa) is to find and eliminate all such wrong views. Unless you have attained, sotapanna, everyone has a wrong view: it is just a question of how many and how gross. I have warned you from the beginning: I don't know the answer... kom --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > Something in this post reminded me of another issue: > > --- protectID wrote: > > > I have heard from Tan A. Sujin > > from somewhere, > > that it's > > good to perform sila, dana, and bhawana, as long as > > the cittas > > arising in > > such performance are more kusala than akusala. > > Is this an answer to the question, 'to sit or not to > sit', questions of intention, etc.? Of course, an > incalculable number of citta arise and subside in the > 'performance' of any act--is it skillful to assess > these in retrospect, and proceed from the resultant > conclusions? > > I do realize that this perspective still presumes > 'someone' who assesses and proceeds. Still, even if > that particular akusala has arisen, if other, kusala > dhamma seem to have arisen with greater volume and or > frequency, then is that act 'good to perform'? Or is > this just more sakkyaditthi trying to rebuild its > house... > > Thank you all for your patience, > > mn > 1420 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Obviously because you are starting to realise that > satipatthana > is not such an easy path to understand and that dint > of will > cannot make it occur. Well, this may not please you, > but I think > it will seem even harder after a little more time. Oh, dear. I wouldn't have thought it could seem much harder, but I'll take your word for it. Meaning, much more lobha/dosa/lobha/dosa etc. ad infinitum... > You write > "yet everything seems to depend on this very > cetana". I don't > think so. Cetana is not a factor of the > eight-factored path. Understood. Roughly... > Remember that the eight factored path is a name for > the > cetasikas that arise during satipatthana and that > culminate in > the experience of nibbana. I didn't even know this until reading it this morning in NVG... > Usually there are > actually only five > factors, cetasikas. Cetana is not among them. If we > give > preponderance to one cetasika I think this indicates > an idea of > control,somewhere. Makes sense... > All cetasikas are conditioned by > various > factors. Cetana, volition, intention, is one of the > sabbacittasadharana (universals) that arise with > every citta. In > other words cetana is always present - although each > cetana is > different from the last. Cetana can be of the 4 > jatis of kusala, > kusala, vipaka and kiriya. Even when we are in deep > sleep there > is cetana. (I can give more details along these > lines if you > want me to?) No rush. I'm sure it will all come up in the mountain of homework ahead (but thanks)... > Perhaps what you mean by cetana is intention in the > usual sense > - so for example I try to be aware of seeing, try to > understand > its true nature. Yes, that is what I meant. > In that case there are many > cetasikas involved > (classified under sankhara khanda)- not just cetana- > although > cetana may be predominant. What is actually > occuring? Let me > give some scenarios as rough (very rough) > illustrations: I'll > use "I" a lot just to make it conversational- but > remember no > "I" in reality. (Always taken for granted). > 1. I concentrate on seeing, trying to separate the > colour(rupa) > from the seeing (nama) - but with a citta rooted in > lobha of > some degree that is hoping to really understand. > (the wrong way) Of course. > 2. I concentrate on seeing but with a citta rooted > in lobha and > ditthi - I think I can control sati, samadhi and the > other > cetasikas - (wrong again). Yes... > 3. I do nothing and just trust that one day sati and > panna will > arise out of the blue. (the opposite extreme). ...understood... > 4. I study in a very detached way colour or seeing > or any other > dhamma that is predominant at any door but without > any hope for > result or feeling that I can bring up sati. I > realise that sati > arises very seldom and that even this apparently > detached study > is still 99.99999% done with cittas rooted in lobha > and moha. If > I feel that I can control anything I know this shows > a weakness > in theoretical understanding. I am not sure if there > was any > sati at all actually. > I have a slight headache right now and so the > tightness and > vibration in that area are apparent - if there is > awareness then > these dhammas are seen without aversion. But how > easily the idea > of "my awareness" comes in. And (assuming there was > awareness) > awareness of these elements could have been of the > type that is > samattha (the elements) or of vipassana - which was > it? > My son was just talking to me and I was studying the > doorways of > ear and eye. Studying sound and colour and breaking > down, > dissecting the concepts of "son" and "me". Sound is > not son, > colour is not son. This is what I would call > "considering in the > present moment"- not clear understanding. > Just now I looked up. But there is no "me". The > commentary says > (p121 Fruits of recluseship), talking about looking > ahead or > looking aside, "the eye is a support condition: > forms are an > object condition; adverting is a proximity, > contiguity, decisive > support, absence, and disapperance condition; light > is a > decisive support condition; feeling etc. are > conascent > conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are > discerned > in the assemblage of these conditions. Therein, who > is it that > looks ahead? Who looks aside?" > Realities are arising at the six doors all the time. > We need to > learn to see that a moment at one door is different > from a > moment at another. There has to be study, > investigation of these > dhammas, but in the right way - and that is not > easy, it is > conditioned, it needs accumulations and study. In > fact the > meditation centers and the different methods, > Goenka, Mahasi etc. > have got it right when they emphasize direct study > of paramattha > dhammas. The thing is, though, that effort and > intention can > so easily be akusala, tied up in subtle ideas of > self and > achievement. Yes, I knew that before and I've learned a lot more here (in the group)... > You wrote "How does > the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and > subsiding > of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator > at > the meditation center" > Understanding of arising and ceasing is an advanced > stage of > vipassana that comes after the first stage where the > difference > betwen nama and rupa are clearly seen. Everyone can > see that > cittas change and that rupas change. If we make it > our life > study we will see this change incessantly. I'll continue to work on it as best I can. Thanks again, Robert... mn 1421 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Thanks Robert!!! http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:

Dear Kom,
have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This is an
intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is very
readable. you can download it at www.zolag.co.uk
robert
1422 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Nonetheless this is > not what is meant by arising and ceasing at the > level of > vipassana. Understood (conventionally, of course). > Khun sujin's descriptions of vipassana nanas make it > clear that > at this level there is no idea at all of anyone > making it > happen. In fact it happens in a flash - it cannot be > controlled. ...understood... > the mind door is revealed and the difference between > nama and > rupas is clearly seen. I can write more about this > if you have > specific questions. Thanks, but I'm sure it will all come up in due time... > Well Mike I wrote something- was it helpful? Always, Robert, and thanks. > It was a little off > the topic, it went here and there. No place I don't need to go, and often... Anumodana, sir, mn 1423 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) > that the paticca > samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the > conditions which > 'decide' what reality will arise at what time are > extremely complex. We can > only get little glimpses through our studies of > paccaya (conditions). > > One problem, as I see it, is that many people read > and study the paticca > samuppada with a view to first being aware of say > contact, then of say > feeling and then of say tanha... following the order > of paticca samuppada. > Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to > understand these links, > in practical terms, we need to understand the > characteristics of these and > many, many other realities more and more precisely > so that awareness and > understanding can do their job of being aware and > knowing the realities > WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order. Thanks, Sarah, understood... > It's also important to understand that at any given > moment a citta arises > with many different cetasikas (even though only one > can be known at a time). > So while people may think that at one moment there > is phassa (contact) and > the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, > they misunderstand that > phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. Don't all the links arise with every citta? > This is > not to say that the phassa > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the > vedana at this moment. If > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be > sahajata paccaya > (conascence condition) for them to arise together > and also I'd think > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) > condition...but i'd need to give > all this more thought! There are also many > conditions which would link the > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or > later) by pacchajat > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana > (repetition) conditions > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very > fascinating, but I'm only > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert! ...all extremely interesting, but WAY over my head, for now... > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject > about how paticca > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series > of citta through last > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can > be used to explain just a > single citta at this moment'. I do have an inkling of this... > I really think we only > begin to get a little > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when > there is the development of > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very > conceptual and usually > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about > avijja...(sorry, I can't > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. > Until avijja > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, > accumulated with the citta > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of > kusala citta (when we say > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at > those moments as anusaya > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the > kusala citta has > passed..... Understood! (thanks to you all)... > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or > confused the matter and I'm > not at all sure if I understood and correctly > answered yr qu. Pls correct > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary > will see that some of > us are a little slow.... Thanks, Sarah, as always, mn 1424 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sampajanna --- amara chay wrote: > > I don't know > > much about this technology, but I wonder if a > > digital > > recorder might be useful to the group? I'd be > > very > > happy to bear the expense. My idea is that, if I > > could somehow record the tapes digitally and save > > them > > as sound files of some kind, maybe I could FTP > > them to > > the site, and others could download them directly > > to > > their computers and eliminate the neccesity of > > recording more tapes and physically mailing them? > > Dear Mike, > > That would be so wonderful! I don't know much about > sound files > except that there are MP3s and MIDIs and the former > is MUCH larger > (about 1,500k/song) whereas the latter is about > 30k/song, but with > lesser quality of course. Other than that I'm as > ignorant as > anything in this matter. But one person on this > list who has helped > me find all the right necessities on the web is Tom > Westheimer, > please contact him at and he most > probably will > be able to point you in the right direction. > > Please keep me posted! > > Amara Thanks, Amara, I've cc'd this response to Tom and will keep you posted. Tom, how d'you do, can you offer any advice? Thanks in advance, mn 1425 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- amara chay wrote: > At least we are heading in the right > direction ...I think so too... > and > have begun to understand realities as they really > are. And we can > keep studying, even as we think and plan and read > and type, all the > different realities that could add to your > experience of the > different characteristics of conditioned sankhara > that appear at all > times. ...I certainly mean to do that... > Remember what it felt like to be completely > ignorant of > them? Yes--I miss it! Ignorance was bliss! (Well, at least lobha arising with sukkhavedana...) Thanks again for all your help and encouragement... Anumodana, mn 1426 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention/cheating dhammas --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > Obviously because you are starting to realise that > > satipatthana > > is not such an easy path to understand and that dint > > of will > > cannot make it occur. Well, this may not please you, > > but I think > > it will seem even harder after a little more time. > > Oh, dear. I wouldn't have thought it could seem much > harder, but I'll take your word for it. Meaning, much > more lobha/dosa/lobha/dosa etc. ad infinitum... Now for some good news! as understanding develops there is far less of the type of lobha/dosa lobha/dosa you just mentioned. The reason for this type of lobha (and thus dosa later) is that we have wrong ideas about practice. We think we have to put in effort but this effort is often of the cheating kind (thank you gayan). For example, we realise the dangers of samsara and think "I have to make great,herioc efforts to attain in this life" this is one of the cheating dhammas - it is merely tanha masqeuarading as wholesome effort, wholesome determination. Real undserstanding breaks down "this life" into just a moment, again and again- and that is the right effort. Gayans posts about this are so very helpful so that we can recognise these different aspects of wrong practice. Robert 1427 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear --- amara chay wrote: > I think it is something like the wisdom to know the > value of things > and to discard whatever is necessary to take on > better things, > not only because one can only carry so much but > because one could be > so attached to whatever one lugs around: even for > beings born in > hell would have as first vithi citta lobha, the > pleasure in being > born. Of course they would not know any better, but > even in this > world people sometimes have a fear for the unknown > and prefer to > think that whatever is theirs is better than the > others, especially > in metaphysical matters. > > Anyway, it's a great reminder to me, thanks for > posting it My pleasure--I wish I could've found the actual reference, but glad you enjoyed the paraphrase... > - and > looking forward to corrections from you too! Don't hold (or concentrate on) your breath! Anumodana, mn 1428 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Betty, Thanks for your encouragement... --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Trust your own judgement: you will know when panna > arises and the difference > between it and lobha. For along with the good > feeling will also be a deep > understanding that can only come with panna. You > can't force it, it will > come of its own accord and it will NOT be > micchidittha. I hope you're right! > If you constantly > doubt, and are not sure, then probably it is > micchidittha at that moment. ...makes sense... > But later, if the conditions are right, panna will > arise. Trust it to do so > and relax. It will come when you least expect it. Betty, thanks very much for your advice, I will take it to heart. Maybe along with Gayan's wonderful expose of the 'cheats', it will bear some good fruit in the long run... Anumodana, mn 1429 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > This sounds like a great discourse to me. It's > like, you are walking > along the path, "letting go" of miccha-ditthi one > moment at a time, > until you arrive at the gold. The part that worries me, that I think I might not understand properly, is the idea of 'deliberately' (I know!) picking up micchaditthi that's less miccha than what you just put down. But until stream entry, I don't see much choice...For example, I know I wouldn't be 'here' today (on this list, I mean), if I hadn't got lost in Zen a long time ago, and for a long time, then put Zen down and picked up something a little closer etc., etc., for years, and years (and who knows how many countless lifetimes)... > Somehow I think > learning about dhamma is > like that, you have a lot of misconceptions at the > beginning, and along > the way, with the help of dhamma friends, with > comparison to the > discourses in the tipitika, with the comparison to > the realities as > they appear, panna at different levels learns moment > by moment what is > real and what is not. And hopefully, panna begins > to let go of the > "akusala" and develops more of the "kusala" as it > knows the penalties > and benefits of both types of dhamma. Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it too. Thanks for helping me to see it more clearly (and I hope we're right!) Anumodana, mn 1430 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats --- protectID wrote: > > Dear Jonathan, > > about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala > dhammas, > can you give us more info about this? (Thanks) Gayan I must apologise for not yet having chased up the references to the near and far enemies. I recall that these terms appear particularly in relation to the brahma-viharas (metta, mudita, karuna & upekkha). For example, attachment is the near enemy of metta, and pity (with dosa) that of karuna, because the akusala one can easily be mistaken for the kusala one. I think the references are found in the Visuddhimagga, and are referred to in at least one of Nina's books. I will check it out as soon as I have time. The further details you have provided on the cheating dhammas are very interesting. Jonothan 1431 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Jonothan, Many thanks for your wonderful explanation to the question posed below and the role of sati: that is the first step of satipatthana. I had been honing in on sampajanna, but each step is just as important. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 6:28 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > > > So I guess the answer is to continue to try to > > cultivate conditions, in the present, for the > > natural > > arising of panna in the future. > > > > This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma: > > If kusala citta arise (and subside) only > > spontaneously > > due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to > > viriya or vayama, e.g., play? That is, is 'effort' > > as > > conventionally understood just an illusion? How > > does > > the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and > > subsiding > > of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator > > at > > the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising > > with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these > > dhammas are uncontrollable? > > > > I realize this is a different question from the > > original. Hope I'm not being obtuse! > > > Mike > > I don’t think you are being obtuse at all! In fact I > admire the way that you continue to hone in on the > important points of the messages. We are talking > about something that is very difficult to convey and > to grasp, because of its subtlety. The only way to > grasp it properly is to keep on asking the kinds of > questions you have been asking. I am conscious that > my attempts at explanation are inadequate, but we all > do the best we can. > > Yes, in a way it is all about developing the right > conditions. That is as much as we can ever do anyway. > What are those conditions? They may be more > straightforward than we realise. > > There must be understanding of what can be the object > of sati. These are the paramattha dhammas about which > we have talked so much. They include the realities > that are appearing at this very moment. > > There must be an understanding of the nature and > function of sati. Sati if it arises studies (pays > attention to) the reality now appearing. When sati > does arise, nothing about the moment changes except > that a level of awareness arises. It may not seem so > very different from the moments that precede and > follow it. Indeed, on a tape I was listening to > recently, it is pointed out that in the beginning sati > is weak and so the moments when sati arises may not be > noticed as such. I think this is worth knowing > because perhaps we are looking for something much > more. > > Another reason why it is important to understand the > nature and function of sati at an intellectual level, > apart from it being a condition for the arising of > sati, is so that it can be recognised when it arises. > Otherwise we will take for sati what is not, or will > have doubt as to whether what we experience is > counterfeit sati or the real thing > > And there must be the repeated consideration of the > teachings with a view to understanding what the Buddha > was trying to convey in this regard, just as we are > doing in these posts. Many people reject the need for > this, saying that there is no substitute for ‘actual > practice’ But this misses the point. The key to the > right practice is in the teachings, not within > ourselves (where wrong view reigns supreme!). > > I hope that tis helps to explain why we don’t have to > worry about viriya, cetana and the rest. Sati is not > conditioned by focusing on a particular reality, nor > by any particular ‘effort’ or ‘intention’ on our part. > The key that allows us to break out of the circle you > describe is simply more listening to and consideration > of the teachings with the right understanding at an > intellectual level (initially) that helps to > temporarily overcome our ever-pervasive wrong view. > > Jonothan > > 1432 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Jonothan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I am conscious that > my attempts at explanation are inadequate, but we > all > do the best we can. You couldn't prove it by me! > Yes, in a way it is all about developing the right > conditions. That is as much as we can ever do > anyway. > What are those conditions? They may be more > straightforward than we realise. > > There must be understanding of what can be the > object > of sati. These are the paramattha dhammas about > which > we have talked so much. They include the realities > that are appearing at this very moment. Understood... > There must be an understanding of the nature and > function of sati. Sati if it arises studies (pays > attention to) the reality now appearing. When sati > does arise, nothing about the moment changes except > that a level of awareness arises. It may not seem > so > very different from the moments that precede and > follow it. Indeed, on a tape I was listening to > recently, it is pointed out that in the beginning > sati > is weak and so the moments when sati arises may not > be > noticed as such. I think this is worth knowing > because perhaps we are looking for something much > more. ...also understood... > Another reason why it is important to understand the > nature and function of sati at an intellectual > level, > apart from it being a condition for the arising of > sati, is so that it can be recognised when it > arises. > Otherwise we will take for sati what is not, or will > have doubt as to whether what we experience is > counterfeit sati or the real thing ...also understood... > And there must be the repeated consideration of the > teachings with a view to understanding what the > Buddha > was trying to convey in this regard, just as we are > doing in these posts. ...right--my current working hypothesis... > Many people reject the need > for > this, saying that there is no substitute for ‘actual > practice’ But this misses the point. The key to > the > right practice is in the teachings, not within > ourselves (where wrong view reigns supreme!). Yes, people often talk of the danger of 'over-intellecutalization', but somehow, among Buddhists, I've seldom been warned (off THIS list, anyhow!) of the danger of UNDER-intellectualization... > I hope that this helps to explain why we don’t have > to > worry about viriya, cetana and the rest. Well--it all helps a little... > Sati is not > conditioned by focusing on a particular reality, nor > by any particular ‘effort’ or ‘intention’ on our > part. Understood. > The key that allows us to break out of the circle > you > describe is simply more listening to and > consideration > of the teachings with the right understanding at an > intellectual level (initially) that helps to > temporarily overcome our ever-pervasive wrong view. Then I will continue to do just that. Thank you again, sir... mn 1433 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Dear Kom, Thank you very much for this thoughtful and involved response. In brief, I've come to pretty much the same conclusions as yours (though yours are much better informed and more detailed). But this post deserves more consideration than 'I' have viriya right now(!), so I'll respond soon. Thanks again, very much indeed. mn --- protectID wrote: > Dear Mike, > > I will give a 3-part answer to this question. I > personally found > them unsatisfactory, but I will answer, in case that > you may make any > sense out of it. > > What are my analysis of sitting/non-sitting (my > opinions, be > careful...): > 1) Based on the experiences I have with different > Buddhist groups in > Thailand, who believe in different things, who claim > their teachers > as being a knowledgeable ones, who generally have > similar comradrie > as "dhamma friends", I have concluded that some of > these people have > to be inaccurate. Which one? I don't know. I used > to analyze it > comparing with what I learn in my education, my life > experience, and > to everyday's life situation. Unfortunately, these > too are > inadaquate. I have become convinced that right > understandings > condition the right knowledge, and therefore, it is > important to > first attain the right understanding. Who do you > get the right > understandings from? From the one whose teachings > seem most profound, > most matching with observable realities: the Buddha. > 2) Did Buddha specifically teach the development of > Vipassana by > sitting down, by following a set of practices? So > far, my readings > show no such teaching. Knowledeable people (A. > Sujin, A. Santi, > people at the foundation, people in thise group) say > no. > 3) Was I attached to the sitting? Absolutely. Do I > learn more/ > understand more about realities while sitting? > Absolutely not. > 4) There is enough wrong view that I have. Do I > need to add another > one? No. > > What would I say to a friend trying to make up his > mind/make decisions > on jumbled set of information that cannot be all > ascertained (in a > worldly situation)? > You can't forever second guess yourself: take the > best set of > information you have and make a decision on it, > knowing that you > may be wrong, and that you will have to correct the > decision. > > What would I say to a dhamma friend trying to make > such a decision? > Intention (cetana) arises with all cittas, and are > particularly > strong in javana cittas as it contributes more than > one kamma > pacaya (sahajata and nanakaniga-kamma). You always > have an intention, > whether you like it or not. There is absolutely > no-self in > poramattha dhamma, even when "you" are thinking > there is "self": the > citta is experiencing "self" as aramana and the self > is unreal. Only > panna knows what is suitable for one, and not the > other; the self > doesn't know, as it is unreal. Panna is > accumulative: as it > understands more and experiences more the realities, > it knows what > dhamma has benefits and what dhamma has bad effects > and therefore, > condition other cittas and cetasikas to arise. How > does panna gets > accumulated? By listening, understanding, and > knowing the realities > as they are. Who's a good source for listening and > helping to > understand realities as they are? The Buddha and > those who teach > his teachings. > > I would say: look for people who teach what Buddha > taught exactly > without adding their own opinion. What the teacher > teaches must be > verifable through the tipitkas. If it cannot be > verified, then it > is not Buddha's teaching, and you know it. > > What "you" and "I" understand and know now will not > be all correct: > you eliminate all micha-dithi only when maggha citta > arises. > Therefore, "your" function (citta, cetasikas, rupa) > is to find > and eliminate all such wrong views. Unless you have > attained, > sotapanna, everyone has a wrong view: it is just a > question of how > many and how gross. > > I have warned you from the beginning: I don't know > the answer... > > kom > > --- "m. nease" > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > Something in this post reminded me of another > issue: > > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > > I have heard from Tan A. Sujin > > > from somewhere, > > > that it's > > > good to perform sila, dana, and bhawana, as long > as > > > the cittas > > > arising in > > > such performance are more kusala than akusala. > > > > Is this an answer to the question, 'to sit or not > to > > sit', questions of intention, etc.? Of course, an > > incalculable number of citta arise and subside in > the > > 'performance' of any act--is it skillful to assess > > these in retrospect, and proceed from the > resultant > > conclusions? > > > > I do realize that this perspective still presumes > > 'someone' who assesses and proceeds. Still, even > if > > that particular akusala has arisen, if other, > kusala > > dhamma seem to have arisen with greater volume and > or > > frequency, then is that act 'good to perform'? Or > is > > this just more sakkyaditthi trying to rebuild its > > house... > > > > Thank you all for your patience, > > > > mn > > > > > 1434 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention/cheating dhammas --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Now for some good news! as understanding develops > there is far > less of the type of lobha/dosa lobha/dosa you just > mentioned. > The reason for this type of lobha (and thus dosa > later) is that > we have wrong ideas about practice. We think we have > to put in > effort but this effort is often of the cheating kind > (thank you > gayan). Yes! fervent thanks again to Gayan. This post was so perfectly timed to elucidate exactly the kind of debunking this group has so kindly been performing on 'my' pathetic ditthi... > For example, we realise the dangers of > samsara and think > "I have to make great,herioc efforts to attain in > this life" > this is one of the cheating dhammas - it is merely > tanha > masqeuarading as wholesome effort, wholesome > determination. 'My' practice has never even been as heroic as that--just a bunch of tricks to avoid the dukkhavedana arising around what I THINK is just my own akusala vipaka... > Real > understanding breaks down "this life" into just a > moment, again > and again-and that is the right effort. So, panna is sammavayama? > Gayan's > posts about this > are so very helpful so that we can recognise these > different > aspects of wrong practice. I know, I'm so glad to have this. I mean to try to work it into some kind of little handbook, with the pali indexed. It's so dense and over my head--seems to me to be a really great learning tool and reference. I wonder what else Ven. Rerukane Chandavimala MahaThera might have hidden away in Sinhala...and how it might be got into English! Thanks again, Robert... mn 1435 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention/cheating dhammas --- "> > Real > > understanding breaks down "this life" into just a > > moment, again > > and again-and that is the right effort. > > So, panna is sammavayama? Sorry Mike, my wording is clumsy. Panna is sammaditthi but whenever there is correct understanding of the moment sammavayama arises with it (conascent paccaya). > > Gayan's > > posts about this > > are so very helpful so that we can recognise these > > different > > aspects of wrong practice. > > I know, I'm so glad to have this. I mean to try to > work it into some kind of little handbook, with the > pali indexed. It's so dense and over my head--seems > to me to be a really great learning tool and > reference. I wonder what else Ven. Rerukane > Chandavimala MahaThera might have hidden away in > Sinhala...and how it might be got into English! > > Thanks again, Robert... > > mn > > 1436 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Robert, thanks for the tip on Zolag! I didn't know this material was out there (not like I don't have more than enough to keep me swamped...) I think I'm still pretty much the new guy, but I wonder if anyone else is unaware of this resource? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Kom, > have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This > is an > intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is > very > readable. you can download it at www.zolag.co.uk > robert > > > > I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com > looking for > > materials > > specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any. Do you > know of any > > published > > English texts that discusses the intricacies of > the 24 pacaya > > (or 52, > > with > > expansions)? > > > > Thanks. > > > > kom 1437 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Kom and Mike, I also found this section by Kom very good. So many excellent comments and letters are coming in that it is hard to keep up. (keep it up). Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > Somehow I think > > learning about dhamma is > > like that, you have a lot of misconceptions at the > > beginning, and along > > the way, with the help of dhamma friends, with > > comparison to the > > discourses in the tipitika, with the comparison to > > the realities as > > they appear, panna at different levels learns moment > > by moment what is > > real and what is not. And hopefully, panna begins > > to let go of the > > "akusala" and develops more of the "kusala" as it > > knows the penalties > > and benefits of both types of dhamma. > > Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it too. Thanks > for helping me to see it more clearly (and I hope > we're right!) > > Anumodana, > > mn 1438 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention/cheating dhammas --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Panna is > sammaditthi but > whenever there is correct understanding of the > moment > sammavayama arises with it (conascent paccaya). Interesting! Is this the only condition for the arising of sammavayama? Thanks again... mn 1439 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention/cheating dhammas --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > Panna is > > sammaditthi but > > whenever there is correct understanding of the > > moment > > sammavayama arises with it (conascent paccaya). > > Interesting! Is this the only condition for the > arising of sammavayama? > Dear Mike, Every dhamma is conditioned by many other dhammas - never just one. But sammavayama of the eightfold path, of satipatthana has to have sammaditthi as a conascent paccaya (condition) otherwise it is not effort of the eightfold path. That is why, first, foremost, above anything else, right view is the key. Sammaditthi, asammoha-sampajana, is the indispenable condition for all the other factors of the path. Robert Robert 1440 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 0:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention/cheating dhammas Dear Robert, Thanks, I won't task you any further tonight. I have more questions, but I shouldn't waste elementary questions on you that I can read about, when you're already challenged to keep up... Do NOT want to burn you out, sir... Thanks yet again... mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > > > > > Panna is > > > sammaditthi but > > > whenever there is correct understanding of the > > > moment > > > sammavayama arises with it (conascent paccaya). > > > > Interesting! Is this the only condition for the > > arising of sammavayama? > > > Dear Mike, > Every dhamma is conditioned by many other dhammas - > never just > one. > But sammavayama of the eightfold path, of > satipatthana has to > have sammaditthi as a conascent paccaya (condition) > otherwise it > is not effort of the eightfold path. That is why, > first, > foremost, above anything else, right view is the > key. > Sammaditthi, asammoha-sampajana, is the indispenable > condition > for all the other factors of the path. > Robert > Robert > > 1441 From: Mary Reinard Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 0:26pm Subject: Pali dictionary Hello to anyone, Where might I get a web-pali dictionary. It may prove useful for my struggle to follow these commentaries. Thanks, Mary 1442 From: shinlin Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 0:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: tapes Fantastic... So we can decode the tapes to MP3 right away... Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 5:55 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: tapes | | > This we have to ask K. Amara about the matter. | | | Dear Shin, | | If you ask me, I think we have enough space for a trial period, if | Mike wants to experiment, we still have half the site empty. If we | get to three quarters full we might start looking around, but as it | is no need for any additional space, we also have other, older | experimental sites already in our name and not in use. In short, | space is not a problem at the moment, so what we need is a good | program for Mike to work with, perhaps using the tapes already sent | by Robert | | What do you think? | | Amara | | | | | 1443 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary Dear Mary, there is a basic glossary at http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html that covers most of the words here. We arealways happy to (try)to define a word if you ask also. It is actualy important to get the defintions correct otherwise we can think we are talking about the same matter but be misunderstanding simply because one term was misinterpreted. Robert --- Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello to anyone, > > Where might I get a web-pali dictionary. It may prove useful > for my > struggle to follow these commentaries. > > Thanks, > Mary > > 1444 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:50pm Subject: Not Sure Dear Friends, I was reading a document on one of ven.Ajahn Chah's preachings to a group of monks. Thought this section might help somebody..., starts here ------------- Whenever something arises within the mind, whether you like it or not, whether it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this is not a sure thing." Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not sure." With just this single ax you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." For the duration of this next month that you will be staying in this forest monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You will see the truth. This "not sure" is really an important one. This one develops wisdom. The more you look the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've cut something off with "not sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. Yes, it's truly "not sure." Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it all..."not sure." You stick the sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its turn comes, it crops up again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will see this same old one who's been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year out, from the day you were born. There's only this one who's been fooling you all along. See this and realize the way things are. -------------- ( not-sure-ness might help to see things without falling to a ditthi, cos ditthi may disguise itself as gnana) rgds. 1445 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 2:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary Hello Mary, http://www.dhammanet.net/~ratthapala/lexicon.cgi Maybe simple tasks are sometimes better done by the more simplemi.... persons such as myself. And if panna is still a long way to come by, being useful might be a good alternative for creating conditions for others to develop panna. Right, no? Welcome to the group, and hope I can be of service in more ways than this. Anumoddhana, Sukin Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello to anyone, > > Where might I get a web-pali dictionary. It may prove useful for my > struggle to follow these commentaries. > > Thanks, > Mary > 1446 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:07pm Subject: Cheats & enemies Dear Gayan, Jonothan & friends, s>--- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Jonathan, > > > > about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala > > dhammas, > > can you give us more info about this? (Thanks) > >Gayan > >I must apologise for not yet having chased up the >references to the near and far enemies. > >I recall that these terms appear particularly in >relation to the brahma-viharas (metta, mudita, karuna >& upekkha). For example, attachment is the near enemy >of metta, and pity (with dosa) that of karuna, because >the akusala one can easily be mistaken for the kusala >one. > >I think the references are found in the Visuddhimagga, >and are referred to in at least one of Nina's books. >I will check it out as soon as I have time. > >The further details you have provided on the cheating >dhammas are very interesting. > >Jonothan > Yes, the 4 brahma viharas (see J's message) all have a near and far enemy. Now I'm quoting from the Atthasalini (PTS edition p.260): ..Each of them has two enemies, near and distant. To expand: of the Divine State of love the near enemy is lust, because, like love, it sees merits. It is like a foe lurking near a man. Quickly it finds access. Hence love should be well protected from lust. Ill-will is its distant enemy. From its dissimilarity in nature it is like a man's foe dwelling in a mountain fastness, etc. hence love should be cultivated secure from ill-will. It is impossible that one should cultivate love and at the same time get angry. As to pity , one who views visible objects, desirable, lovable, endearing, delightful, associated with craving, objects which have not been obtained formerly as now past, ceased, changed, is filled with the sorrow called worldly. This, because it also contemplates adversity, is the near enemy of the Divine State of pity. From its dissimilarity in nature cruelty is the distant enemy. Hence pity should be cultivated secure from cruelty. It is impossible that one should cultivate pity and at the same time strike with the hand etc. As to sympathy (mudita), one who views visible objects, desirable, etc, is filled with joy called wordly. This, because it also contemplates prosperity, is the near enemy of the Divine State of sympathy. From its dissimilarity in nature dislike is its distant enemy. Hence sympathy should be cultivated secure from it. It is impossible that one should by sympathetic and at the same time be discontented with secluded monasteries or with the higher moral states . The fool who has seen a visible object and who is deluded, an average man who has not overcome the limits of his lower nature and result of former births, who does not see the evils of all conditioned things, is unacquainted with the teaching- this average man is filled with such indifference as is not able to transcend the visible object. Hence it is called worldly, and is mere delusion. Owing to its similarity in not considering faults and merits, it is the near enemy of the Divine State of equanimity (upekkha>. From their dissimilarity in nature, both lust and aversion are its distant enemies. Hence equanimity should be cultivated secure from them. It is impossible that one should cultivate equanimity, and at the same time be enamoured with, or hurt another.... ends. hope this helps....I'm looking f/w to when I can scan in or become more user friendly with the translations on web sites....altho' I'm not sure if the abhidhamma and commentaries are on yet??? Also this translation of pali terms like metta- love etc could be a little better. I'm sure Nina used to have a summary of this in her cetasikas manuscript but I can't find it in her Cetasikas book....Like Alex and MN, (Maj Nik, not you, Mike!), at least it got me pulling out my dusty Atthasalini! Sarah Sarah 1447 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:13pm Subject: keeping up! Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > So many excellent >comments and letters are coming in that it is hard to keep up. >(keep it up). >Robert I never thought I'd haear you saying this! Sarah 1448 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:29pm Subject: viriya- effort/energy Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > Panna is > > sammaditthi but > > whenever there is correct understanding of the > > moment > > sammavayama arises with it (conascent paccaya). > >Interesting! Is this the only condition for the >arising of sammavayama? > >Thanks again... > >mn> > While flicking thr' Cetasikas by Nina VG for the brahma viharas, i started reading what she writes about viriya on p.89 My finders are not up for another long type but I'll quote a few bits: ....We are inclined to take energy for self, but energy is sankhara dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Energy is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies and thus there is a different kind of energy with different cittas...... Viriya accompanies all akusala cittas and all sobhana cittas...but it does not arise with all vipakacittas and with all kiriyacittas. Viriya does not accompany the dvi panca vinnanas, the sense cognitions. Seeing or hearing do not need viriya in order to experience their objects..... We read in the Vis. that the function of viriya is to consolidate conascent states. Viriya strengthens, supports the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies so that they can carry otut their work and do not 'collapse'. ends There's a lot more that is interesting and useful. I agree with Jonothan's (?) suggestion that whenever we have the idea of having more viriya (effort) or good cetana (intention) with regard to the dhamma, we can be pretty sure there's an idea of self lurking there! By knowing more about many realities, there wil be more understanding of these ones. BTW, i'm really enjoying your humour....and witty comments.....I can 'hear' plenty of progress going on..you're very modest about your understanding and depth of knowledge. You're a great asset to the group as are all the other prolific and not so prolific contributors AND silent members too! Sarah 1449 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, >From: protectID > >Dear Robert, > >I do not at all mind discussing the matters, as I am trying to learn >more >about it. It will be harder to give textual sources: all the >materials I have >are now 1) one book collecting A. Sujin's teachings, 2) one book as >collected by A. Santi, 3) recordings of 2-year (???) worth of >discussions >by A. Santi, and 4) parichet discussing pacaya of which the >difficulty is >beyond my range. I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe >Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can >discuss? > >kom you kindly picked me up in another message with regard to the paccaya I had mentioned (I can't find the post on the list for now). I agree with the comment about asociation (sampayutta) and just for now I forget the other but I'm sure you'd be right as you've considered this qu in far more detail than I have. Thank you very much, I may come back to it later. Yes, I think in English there is just Nina's paccaya and then back to the Patthana in the Abhid. which Robert has studied more than me for sure! (maybe in Cambodia). I also really appreciate yr very knowledgeable responses. Pls do quote from KSujin's and Santi's books and recordings in Thai as appropriate. Many thanks for yr help. Sarah 1450 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A bit more of an intro Dear Mary, >From: "Mary Reinard" >Am volunteer cordinator for a wee sitting group in Portland, OR. and >recieve much joy from sharing the Buddha's teachings with my >community. > >Can't say I'm very versed on the words and structures that seem to >heavily influence the dialogue in this list, and am not sure I'll >find a way to fruitfully participate, however, I'll give it a shot. > >My style tends to be a bit slower than what so far I've observed >here. It may take me a day or two to absorb and relate back my >personal understanding, in which time you will most likely all have >moved on to other subjects. But, doesn't appear that this will be of >any issue, just wished to warn you of what may feel like a delayed >reaction on my part. > >I am glad to be here, and will speak to you all again. >Metta, >Mary You'll have seen by now that the list is very busy this month....(whether it's a freak month or will continue like this is a matter to be seen!). You'll also have seen that some members like Robert, Mike and Amara have boundless energy and can reply within seconds. Some, like me, are usually a few days behind and that's all fine! I tend to read the shorts ones as an appetiser before or after work, the medium ones as a dessert after supper (if Jonothan hasn't pounced on the computer..and that's another story!) and the longer, meaty ones have to be printed out and wait for Sunday brunch to be read out together! You won't be surprised to learn that Sunday brunch is getting longer and longer! Seriously, don't be daunted...read what makes sense to you and is relatively easy to follow....you can always devote yr next holiday to catching up with the archives! We'd be interested to hear if you've read anything especially helpful so far or if there are any points in the discussion you disagree with or think are not helpful. If you're happier to sit back and 'absorb' that's fine too! Any time any of us start using too much Pali without enough adequate translation, pls scream....! best wishes, Sarah> 1451 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Alex > Thank you for this useful post. It's talking > directly to me. I’m glad you found something useful in the message. > >There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is > >kusala. This was so before we became interested in > >the dhamma, and remains so now. This is because we > >have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala. > This > >is not something to be seen as a cause for regret, > but > >simply something to accept and face up to. > > How true! In fact it may be even truer than we realise! Not only is there all the akusala we are conscious of, but there is all the akusala that we are not conscious of too. So even when we have a ‘good’ day (not noticeably annoyed, short-tempered, over-excited, ‘lost’ in lobha etc) there is still loads of akusala. It’s just that our ‘bad’ akusala is replaced by ‘good’ akusala. This sort of information is uesful. We won’t be always hoping to see more kusala. There is a natural tendency to expect that we should or will, as students of the dhamma intent on develping the path, have much more kusala in our lives and much less akusala. This is actually a form of wrong view. Our accumulations remain more or less the same as before, and anyway the degree of kusala or akusla that arises is quite beyound our power to influence. Realising this is progress on the path. Every instance of wrong view that is unmasked means more conditions for the arising of awarenss that studies realities as they realy are. > >It takes courage to do this, since it goes against > all > >our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to > >what spiritual development is all about. > > Since joining this group, most of the time that I > can be aware of what's > going on within me (which is rare any way), I see a > lot of dosa and lobha. > I even see that if the color of dosa, lobha, and > avijja is dark, I'm really > very dark! Then, I think that if adosa, alobha, and > panna is light like the > Arahant, indeed, I have a long long way to go. It is good to see one’s akusala. When akusala appears we get to know our latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa), since just for those moments those particular tnedencies are not latent. But it may not be useful to dwell on how far there is to go yet. Better to rejoice in the rare oppportunity we have in this lifetime to make some progress in the right direction! > >But once > >accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it > >means that we don't really expect anything other > than > >akusala. And once we understand that the task is > not > >to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties > >(including the akusala ones) as they are, we > realise > >that it doesn't really matter anyway. > > Thank you for reminding me about accepting > akusala realities. > It’s not that our day-to-day akusala actually becomes our friend, but at least it need no longer be seen as the enemy. The enemy is the wrong view (and other akusala dhammas) that are not seen. Jonothan 1452 From: SELAMAT Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 5:46pm Subject: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear all, I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me the differences between: a. chanda and cetana b. manasikara and sati And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. anumodana, selamat rodjali 1453 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 6:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca --- > >kom > > I think > in English there is just Nina's paccaya and then back to the > Patthana in the > Abhid. which Robert has studied more than me for sure! (maybe > in Cambodia). > Sarah > dear sarah, venerable narada of Burma wrote a very good intoduction to his translation of the patthana (PTS) This is called Guide to conditional Relations and is also published by the the Pali text society. There are outlines around by Mogok sayadaw and Ledi sayadaw but these are very short. Even Nina's full-length book is too brief for this deepest of the Dhamma. Studying the Patthana directly is difficult becuase there is no English translation of the commentary yet (and is not likely to be in the near future) Kom or Amara perhaps you would like to try translating khun Sujin's many talks on this topic. I will be very grateful (and would promise to help out with editing) if this was ever done. (SO much to do, so little time) robert 1454 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 6:42pm Subject: GREAT NEWS ABOUT INTERNET RADIO Dear friends in the dhamma, I just came home in time for a call from Khun Sujin, I had been telling her about the internet radio and she had said she would ask all the radio stations that are airing her programs at the moment. Today one of them said their station can be listened to at , and her program for the moment is at 8:00 BKK time. Please try this out, although it seems that today it might be out of order, I could not get the server just now. But just in case, please check if you can find anything. She is thinking of airing a half hour program in Thai and another half in English in the near future. Khuns O, Kom and Jack please look out for my note off-list, Amara 1455 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 6:46pm Subject: Re: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati --- "SELAMAT" wrote: > Dear all, > I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me the differences > between: > a. chanda and cetana > b. manasikara and sati > And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. > > anumodana, > selamat rodjali Hi! and a very warm welcome, So glad you joined us and looking forward to reading the response Robert and everyone will be sending you, Thanks for the questions, Amara 1456 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 6:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear friend, Welcome to the discussion. You are no stranger to some of us and Nina Van Gorkom has mentioned your group several times and the wonderful work you do for Buddhism. I have a strong feeling towards Indonesia that it is a place where Dhamma will develop (or redevelop -considering its ancient Buddhist heritage) and become an important part of the Buddhist world. Your questions should be answered in detail (i'll let others do that). Just some basic points now - Sati, as a cetasika, is always kusala. (occasionally the texts talk about micchasati but this really means the absence of sati). Sati is different depending on the type of kusala it is associated with. Cetana arises with all jatis (kusala, akusala, kiriya and vipaka)and every citta. When it arises during the javanna processes it is either kusala or akusala and is actually kamma. Chanda is wish to do, it can also arises with all jatis but not every citta. Chanda can arise with kusala or akusala. The difference between chanda, cetana and lobha (unwholesome desire) is so hard to see. Thus we often mistake lobha for wholesome chanda with sati (and sometimes we mistake sati with chanda for lobha). Do you have Nina van Gorkoms book cetasikas? this gives a very good outline of all this. Robert --- SELAMAT wrote: > Dear all, > I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me the > differences > between: > a. chanda and cetana > b. manasikara and sati > And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. > > anumodana, > selamat rodjali > > 1457 From: SELAMAT Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Amara, Robert, greatly appreciate your immediate respons. already have Nina's book on cetasika. as a single cetasika, I already understand the differences of the terms, but when a kusala citta arise in our daily life situation which contains chanda and cetana or manasikara and sati, how do we differentiate chanda cetasika from cetana cetasika? Manasikara from sati? or do we only know one cetasika in a moment and another cetasika in another moment? metta, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > Dear friend, > Welcome to the discussion. You are no stranger to some of us and > Nina Van Gorkom has mentioned your group several times and the > wonderful work you do for Buddhism. I have a strong feeling > towards Indonesia that it is a place where Dhamma will develop > (or redevelop -considering its ancient Buddhist heritage) and > become an important part of the Buddhist world. > Your questions should be answered in detail (i'll let others do > that). Just some basic points now - Sati, as a cetasika, is > always kusala. (occasionally the texts talk about micchasati but > this really means the absence of sati). Sati is different > depending on the type of kusala it is associated with. > Cetana arises with all jatis (kusala, akusala, kiriya and > vipaka)and every citta. When it arises during the javanna > processes it is either kusala or akusala and is actually kamma. > Chanda is wish to do, it can also arises with all jatis but not > every citta. Chanda can arise with kusala or akusala. > The difference between chanda, cetana and lobha (unwholesome > desire) is so hard to see. Thus we often mistake lobha for > wholesome chanda with sati (and sometimes we mistake sati with > chanda for lobha). Do you have Nina van Gorkoms book cetasikas? > this gives a very good outline of all this. > Robert > --- SELAMAT wrote: > Dear all, > > I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me the > > differences > > between: > > a. chanda and cetana > > b. manasikara and sati > > And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. > > > > anumodana, > > selamat rodjali > > > > > > > > > > 1458 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:07:25 CST >I'm sure Nina used to have a summary of this in her cetasikas manuscript >but >I can't find it in her Cetasikas book....Like Alex and MN, (Maj Nik, not >you, Mike!), at least it got me pulling out my dusty Atthasalini! > >Sarah Dear Sarah and friends, Is Nina VG's Cetasikas book available in the Web yet? I first heard of it from Leonardo's remarks about it a few weeks ago. It seems a very good book to study. Well, I have quite a lot of materials to digest now, but ... :-))) Anumodana, Alex Tran 1459 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Selamat, The critical point is that it is not us who does anything or understands. When conditions are right panna and sati and other kusala dhammas arise and it is the function of panna to understand. Sati can only take one dhamma at a time to be aware of; but because it is all happening so incredibly fast sati may arise again and again and know many different dhammas in a split second. It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala citta so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is not so important to be sure about the difference between all the cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification of dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this will be a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some extent but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish nama from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not necessarily clear insight into the difference between these conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this - I am far from sure about this intricate matter. Robert --- SELAMAT wrote: > Dear Amara, Robert, > greatly appreciate your immediate respons. > already have Nina's book on cetasika. > as a single cetasika, I already understand the differences of > the terms, but > when a kusala citta arise in our daily life situation which > contains chanda > and cetana or manasikara and sati, how do we differentiate > chanda cetasika > from cetana cetasika? Manasikara from sati? or do we only know > one cetasika > in a moment and another cetasika in another moment? > > metta, > selamat > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:55 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda > and cetana; > between manasikara and sati > > > > Dear friend, > > Welcome to the discussion. You are no stranger to some of us > and > > Nina Van Gorkom has mentioned your group several times and > the > > wonderful work you do for Buddhism. I have a strong feeling > > towards Indonesia that it is a place where Dhamma will > develop > > (or redevelop -considering its ancient Buddhist heritage) > and > > become an important part of the Buddhist world. > > Your questions should be answered in detail (i'll let others > do > > that). Just some basic points now - Sati, as a cetasika, is > > always kusala. (occasionally the texts talk about micchasati > but > > this really means the absence of sati). Sati is different > > depending on the type of kusala it is associated with. > > Cetana arises with all jatis (kusala, akusala, kiriya and > > vipaka)and every citta. When it arises during the javanna > > processes it is either kusala or akusala and is actually > kamma. > > Chanda is wish to do, it can also arises with all jatis but > not > > every citta. Chanda can arise with kusala or akusala. > > The difference between chanda, cetana and lobha (unwholesome > > desire) is so hard to see. Thus we often mistake lobha for > > wholesome chanda with sati (and sometimes we mistake sati > with > > chanda for lobha). Do you have Nina van Gorkoms book > cetasikas? > > this gives a very good outline of all this. > > Robert > > --- SELAMAT wrote: > Dear > all, > > > I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me > the > > > differences > > > between: > > > a. chanda and cetana > > > b. manasikara and sati > > > And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. > > > > > > anumodana, > > > selamat rodjali > > > > > > > > > > 1460 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:18pm Subject: Ceatasikas by Nina van Gorkom dear Alex, It is not distributed in the states so you have to order from England. It is a rather expensive at 24pounds but is a nice hardcover and some 400 pages. Priceless really. Try this link http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1897633181/qid=972475923/026-2848868-7647610 if that doesn't work go amazon.co.uk and search for cetasikas. If you order that book I would also get World in The Buddhist Sense same author. --- A T wrote: > > > > >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies > >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:07:25 CST > >I'm sure Nina used to have a summary of this in her cetasikas > manuscript > >but > >I can't find it in her Cetasikas book....Like Alex and MN, > (Maj Nik, not > >you, Mike!), at least it got me pulling out my dusty > Atthasalini! > > > >Sarah > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Is Nina VG's Cetasikas book available in the Web yet? I > first heard of > it from Leonardo's remarks about it a few weeks ago. It seems > a very good > book to study. Well, I have quite a lot of materials to > digest now, but ... > :-))) > > Anumodana, > Alex Tran > 1461 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:27pm Subject: IN HALF AN HOUR Dear group, The radio program is at 8pm, Khun Sujin said, so that would be in less than a half hour, and I don't know if the server is up yet, if anyone did get a result, please tell me, Amara 1462 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ceatasikas by Nina van Gorkom Dear Robert, I'll order both books along with the Path of Purification from Amazon then. Please tell me more good books so that I can order them together and ... save the postage and handling. :-))) Thank you very much. Anumodana, Alex ========================== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ceatasikas by Nina van Gorkom >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:18:10 -0700 (PDT) > >dear Alex, >It is not distributed in the states so you have to order from >England. It is a rather expensive at 24pounds but is a nice >hardcover and some 400 pages. Priceless really. Try this link >http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1897633181/qid=972475923/026-2848868-7647610 >if that doesn't work go amazon.co.uk and search for cetasikas. >If you order that book I would also get World in The Buddhist >Sense same author. > 1463 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary Here you go, Mary, http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html http://www.dhammanet.net/~ratthapala/ And last but not least, Andy Shaw's wonderful Paliwords: http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm So glad to see you here again! Anumodanaa, mn --- Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello to anyone, > > Where might I get a web-pali dictionary. It may > prove useful for my > struggle to follow these commentaries. > > Thanks, > Mary > > 1464 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Not Sure Dear Gayan, Ajahn Chah's 'Yang mai na' (or something like that--'not yet sure') is a good example of the way I looked at things for a long time. This kind of retrospective reflection seemed/seems to me the only option if sati doesn't arise strongly or frequently enough (or at all!)--that is, if the conditions just arent' there yet for the arising of real awareness of reality in the present moment. Lately, though, I've grown very uneasy about this kind of retrospection. So I'm glad you brought this up and look forward to the group's responses. So glad to continue to see you on this list, sir, mn --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Dear Friends, > > I was reading a document on one of ven.Ajahn Chah's > preachings to a group of > monks. > Thought this section might help somebody..., > > starts here > ------------- > > Whenever something arises within the mind, whether > you like it or not, whether > it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this > is not a sure thing." > Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not > sure." With just this single ax > you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." > > For the duration of this next month that you will be > staying in this forest > monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You > will see the truth. This "not > sure" is really an important one. This one develops > wisdom. The more you look > the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've > cut something off with "not > sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. > Yes, it's truly "not sure." > Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it > all..."not sure." You stick the > sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its > turn comes, it crops up > again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will > see this same old one who's > been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year > out, from the day you were > born. There's only this one who's been fooling you > all along. See this and > realize the way things are. > > -------------- > > ( not-sure-ness might help to see things without > falling to a ditthi, cos ditthi > may disguise itself as gnana) > > rgds. > > > 1465 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] IN HALF AN HOUR I got the web page but couldn't see how to get the radio station Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > Dear group, > > The radio program is at 8pm, Khun Sujin said, so that would be > in > less than a half hour, and I don't know if the server is up > yet, if > anyone did get a result, please tell me, > > Amara > > 1466 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions Dear Robert, > >dear sarah, >venerable narada of Burma wrote a very good intoduction to his >translation of the patthana (PTS) This is called Guide to >conditional Relations and is also published by the the Pali text >society. There are outlines around by Mogok sayadaw and Ledi >sayadaw but these are very short. Even Nina's full-length book >is too brief for this deepest of the Dhamma. Studying the >Patthana directly is difficult becuase there is no English >translation of the commentary yet (and is not likely to be in >the near future) Kom or Amara perhaps you would like to try >translating khun Sujin's many talks on this topic. I will be >very grateful (and would promise to help out with editing) if >this was ever done. (SO much to do, so little time) >robert > > Thanks for the prompt. Yes we have the PTS Guide to Con Rel...which I need to study! We've just put in a PTS order for the first time in ages inc Patthana itself....is it too difficult to read directly/ Should I cancel it? Space is at a premium in the tiny computer 'box' room....pls let me know asap as I'd need to send a quick line to cancel. Thanks 1468 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > We've just put in a PTS order for the first time in > ages inc > Patthana itself....is it too difficult to read directly/ > Should I cancel it? Dear sarah, The result of convincing someone not to study the Patthana would be severe. At the least after getting out of hell I would be drivelling loon(this comes from keeping someone away from the condition for wisdom). Absolutely buy it!!! It is hard but not impossible to study(I just wish PTS would translate the commentary also). The first volume has a good introduction by Narada. the second volume is a little more difficult. Robertr 1469 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 9:44pm Subject: Re: IN HALF AN HOUR > I got the web page but couldn't see how to get the radio station > Robert Dear Robert, Me neither! I tried calling the radio station but no one answered. Will try again tomorrow working hours. Thanks for the feedback, Amara 1470 From: Mary Reinard Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:13pm Subject: Taking it all in Dear Sarah, You write, "Seriously, don't be daunted...read what makes sense to you and is relatively easy to follow....you can always devote yr next holiday to catching up with the archives! I write, Oh boy, that sounds like fun:) You write, "We'd be interested to hear if you've read anything especially helpful so far or if there are any points in the discussion you disagree with or think are not helpful . . . " I write, Thank you for asking. I'm just pounding out the last of a short article about starting a sitting group in my home town, deadlines, as you might know, are not often flextible. So, I'm a bit busy at the moment but much look forward to stepping in and participating with this group. Your invitation extends a welcome feeling of support to me, and I do appreciate the inclusion. Besides that Mike has warned me . . . "Don't you dare pass up this opportunity!" . . . so ok Mike and Sarah, I'll stick around, though please do accept that I might not pop in quite as often as some:) You write, "If you're happier to sit back and 'absorb' that's fine too!" I write, Thanks again. Not a matter of 'happier' just a matter of the way this set of conditioning takes in and processes information, for now anyway. You write, "Any time any of us start using too much Pali without enough adequate translation, pls scream....!" I write, I use to try that technique with my dad, hmmmmmm . . . Think I'll just accept people's style of expression and work from there. Again Sarah, thank you for this welcome. Just as you extend through your post to me here, patience and openess, I'm happy to extend to others on this list. Most likely I won't read the bulk of the messages, but I will from time to time chime in. I do feel there is much for me to gain by doin just so. > best wishes, > Sarah Much appreciation, Mary 1471 From: SELAMAT Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Robert, of course not us who does anything or experiences something. Am always late to realize the present moment. Anumodana for the feedback. So glad to continue discuss on phenomena. metta, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > Dear Selamat, > The critical point is that it is not us who does anything or > understands. When conditions are right panna and sati and other > kusala dhammas arise and it is the function of panna to > understand. Sati can only take one dhamma at a time to be aware > of; but because it is all happening so incredibly fast sati may > arise again and again and know many different dhammas in a > split second. > It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala citta > so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is not > so important to be sure about the difference between all the > cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification of > dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , > including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as > sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this will be > a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some extent > but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish nama > from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not > necessarily clear insight into the difference between these > conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this - I > am far from sure about this intricate matter. > Robert > --- SELAMAT wrote: > Dear > Amara, Robert, > > greatly appreciate your immediate respons. > > already have Nina's book on cetasika. > > as a single cetasika, I already understand the differences of > > the terms, but > > when a kusala citta arise in our daily life situation which > > contains chanda > > and cetana or manasikara and sati, how do we differentiate > > chanda cetasika > > from cetana cetasika? Manasikara from sati? or do we only know > > one cetasika > > in a moment and another cetasika in another moment? > > > > metta, > > selamat > > 1472 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:15pm Subject: Re: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > as a single cetasika, I already understand the differences of the terms, but > when a kusala citta arise in our daily life situation which contains chanda > and cetana or manasikara and sati, how do we differentiate chanda cetasika > from cetana cetasika? Manasikara from sati? or do we only know one cetasika > in a moment and another cetasika in another moment? Dear Selamat, Because the citta and cetasika arise together so fast and fall away so rapidly, it is very difficult to distinguish them at all and especially to tell them apart when their special characteristics are not strong enough, which is most of the time. We may be easily aware of anger (usually after it has already fallen away) or other strong feelings, but it is hard to tell especially the annasamana cetasika that arise without interruption in daily life, I think. The thing is not to worry about the ones whose characteristics has not arisen yet, and study those which are before us. All studies are simply to show us that there is really no self, just different realities. Khun Sujin tells us all the time that we should learn and know in order to abandon them (not to assign them special importance and thus cling to more things than we already cling to). But since we must know them in order that panna could grow, we must realize that there is the understanding of things as they really are of the theoretic level, and the experiencing of the realities as they are, as the four paramattha dhamma. The five dvara have their specific rupa that they can experience correspondingly, and the rest, of both nama and rupa, can be experienced only through the mind dvara. Even then some knowledge could remain merely theoretical, since no one can make them arise at will to be examined and tested. And some characteristics are so close that normally only the panna of a Buddha could distinguish and describe them, so that if they only arise imperceptibly to do a 'universal' function we would never know they existed, much less their characteristics. But according to his teachings described in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part V, advanced section, as follows 4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of cetana that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya because it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is not in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. 7. Manasikara-cetasika is the cetasika that is attentive, interested in the arammana. The interest in the arammana would be paccaya for the cetasika to think of the arammana and compose it into intricacies, infinite sciences in worldly matters. While in dhamma matters, it is to the contrary. *** In other words, cetana is setting out to do something (mentally and leading to/or not, physically) and manasikara is attention studying the aramana. 6. Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform. It arises with 69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 moha-mula-citta. This is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise without hetu-cetasika simultaneously occurring. As for the moha-mula-citta, even with moha-cetasika arising together with them, but since they are without concurrent lobha-cetasika or dosa-cetasika, they do not have chanda-cetasika arising with them because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is pleased with the state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta that chanda-cetasika is arising with. 2. Sati-cetasika is the cetasika that is mindful of all kusala. When the akusala arises each day, sati would not arise to be mindful of dana, sila or bhavana. The instant kusala-citta arises and evolves in dana, sila or bhavana, the sati would arise and be mindful of the distinct kind of kusala. Chanda is to enjoy something. Can hunters enjoy killing or the hunt or whatever? Or enjoy the dhamma. Sati occurs every time the citta is not evolving with lobha, dosa or moha of any kind, at that moment it is peaceful from these things and therefore kusala, because at those moments there must be alobha, adosa or amoha, meaning it must be evolving with dana, sila or bhavana. But very weak sati could never be detected, only when there has been right understanding accumulated and the study of realities as they really are, sight as sight and sound as sound, the touch of your fingers on the keyboard or mouse is just what it is, a reality that is different that that experienced through the eyes, could sati be strong enough to be fleetingly detected, but when these tiny instants are accumulated enough, stronger levels could arise, with right understanding and knowledge that sati is also anatta, uncontrolable and can arise at any time and place, to be accumulated for further sati to arise. The aramana of sati with right understanding would be paramatthadhamma characteristics then. I hope our friends will correct me if I made a mistake, Amara 1473 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 0:57am Subject: Re: Taking it all in > I write, > Thank you for asking. I'm just pounding out the last of a > short article about starting a sitting group in my home town, > deadlines, as you might know, are not often flextible. So, I'm a bit > busy at the moment but much look forward to stepping in and > participating with this group. Your invitation extends a welcome > feeling of support to me, and I do appreciate the inclusion. Besides > that Mike has warned me . . . "Don't you dare pass up this > opportunity!" . . . so ok Mike and Sarah, I'll stick around, though > please do accept that I might not pop in quite as often as some:) Dear Mary, And you still owe us a peek at the 'Buddha'! (besides other things!) I'm having a hectic few days myself, and will be gone early tomorrow morning to get back rather late, again. Looking forward to reading everyone's post (and perhaps your creation) then, Amara 1475 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 1:15am Subject: Re: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > > when a kusala citta arise in our daily life situation which contains > chanda > > and cetana or manasikara and sati, how do we differentiate chanda > cetasika > > from cetana cetasika? Manasikara from sati? or do we only know one > cetasika > > in a moment and another cetasika in another moment? Dear everyone, Sorry for my carelessness mixing up the pairs in my last post! But the distinct differences remain the same, I should only add the omitted characteristic of sati as awareness, though! So: chanda cetasika / cetana cetasika = enjoyment (with or without lobha or attachment) / intention; manasikara / sati = attention and inspection / awareness accompanying kusala. Really have to go this time, Amara > Dear Selamat, > > Because the citta and cetasika arise together so fast and fall away > so rapidly, it is very difficult to distinguish them at all and > especially to tell them apart when their special characteristics are > not strong enough, which is most of the time. We may be easily > aware of anger (usually after it has already fallen away) or other > strong feelings, but it is hard to tell especially the annasamana > cetasika that arise without interruption in daily life, I think. > The thing is not to worry about the ones whose characteristics has > not arisen yet, and study those which are before us. All studies > are simply to show us that there is really no self, just different > realities. Khun Sujin tells us all the time that we should learn > and know in order to abandon them (not to assign them special > importance and thus cling to more things than we already cling to). > But since we must know them in order that panna could grow, we must > realize that there is the understanding of things as they really are > of the theoretic level, and the experiencing of the realities as > they are, as the four paramattha dhamma. The five dvara have their > specific rupa that they can experience correspondingly, and the > rest, of both nama and rupa, can be experienced only through the > mind dvara. Even then some knowledge could remain merely > theoretical, since no one can make them arise at will to be examined > and tested. And some characteristics are so close that normally > only the panna of a Buddha could distinguish and describe them, so > that if they only arise imperceptibly to do a 'universal' function > we would never know they existed, much less their characteristics. > But according to his teachings described in the 'Summary of > Paramatthadhamma' Part V, advanced section, > as follows > > 4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors > to perform the function according to its kind and the > sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently at that instant. The > cetana-cetasika is therefore a kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika > that arises with vipaka-citta is a sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka > because it performs the function of cetana that is vipaka > simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other vipaka-cetasika that > arise concurrently and then fall away. The cetana-cetasika, which > is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with kiriya-citta and > other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a > sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with > akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after > resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or kusala-kamma-patha and > falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya because it will cause > vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is not in > the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana > performs the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, > or cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal > akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana had fallen away, the > cetana-kamma, which is the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana, > are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. > > 7. Manasikara-cetasika is the cetasika that is attentive, interested > in the arammana. The interest in the arammana would be paccaya for > the cetasika to think of the arammana and compose it into > intricacies, infinite sciences in worldly matters. While in dhamma > matters, it is > to the contrary. > > *** > In other words, cetana is setting out to do something (mentally and > leading to/or not, physically) and manasikara is attention studying > the aramana. > > 6. Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform. It > arises with 69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 > moha-mula-citta. This is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise > without hetu-cetasika simultaneously occurring. As for the > moha-mula-citta, even with moha-cetasika arising together with them, > but since they are without concurrent lobha-cetasika or > dosa-cetasika, they do not have chanda-cetasika arising with them > because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is pleased with the > state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta > that chanda-cetasika is arising with. > > > 2. Sati-cetasika is the cetasika that is mindful of all kusala. > When the akusala arises each day, sati would not arise to be mindful > of dana, sila or bhavana. The instant kusala-citta arises and > evolves in dana, sila or bhavana, the sati would arise and be > mindful of the distinct kind of kusala. > > > Chanda is to enjoy something. Can hunters enjoy killing or the hunt > or whatever? Or enjoy the dhamma. > > Sati occurs every time the citta is not evolving with lobha, dosa or > moha of any kind, at that moment it is peaceful from these things > and therefore kusala, because at those moments there must be alobha, > adosa or amoha, meaning it must be evolving with dana, sila or > bhavana. But very weak sati could never be detected, only when > there has been right understanding accumulated and the study of > realities as they really are, sight as sight and sound as sound, the > touch of your fingers on the keyboard or mouse is just what it is, a > reality that is different that that experienced through the eyes, > could sati be strong enough to be fleetingly detected, but when > these tiny instants are accumulated enough, stronger levels could > arise, with right understanding and knowledge that sati is also > anatta, uncontrolable and can arise at any time and place, to be > accumulated for further sati to arise. The aramana of sati with > right understanding would be paramatthadhamma characteristics then. > > I hope our friends will correct me if I made a mistake, > > Amara 1476 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 1:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary Dear Mary, Welcome to the group. You might try the Pali Text Society since they have a fairly good dictionary. Am not sure of their URL so you can try to search for them on the web. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Reinard Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 11:26 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary > Hello to anyone, > > Where might I get a web-pali dictionary. It may prove useful for my > struggle to follow these commentaries. > > Thanks, > Mary > > > > > > 1477 From: Mary Reinard Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 3:52am Subject: Re: Taking it all in Dear Amara, You say, "And you still owe us a peek at the 'Buddha'!" I say, OK, OK, OK, http://www.egroups.com/files/dhammastudygroup/ You say, "(besides other things!)" I say, Oh my, what other things might you be referring too? You say, "I'm having a hectic few days myself, and will be gone early tomorrow morning to get back rather late, again. Looking forward to reading everyone's post (and perhaps your creation) then, I say, Have a wonderful couple of days, hope you catch the Buddha before long:) > Amara Mary 1478 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies Dear Alex, I'm swamped with reading too! But I've just ordered NVG's Cetasikas from Amazon UK: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/welcome/468294/026-9335237-1528457 They say it will be available in 4-6 weeks... Anumodana, mn --- A T wrote: > > > > >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies > >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:07:25 CST > >I'm sure Nina used to have a summary of this in her > cetasikas manuscript > >but > >I can't find it in her Cetasikas book....Like Alex > and MN, (Maj Nik, not > >you, Mike!), at least it got me pulling out my > dusty Atthasalini! > > > >Sarah > > Dear Sarah and friends, > > Is Nina VG's Cetasikas book available in the Web > yet? I first heard of > it from Leonardo's remarks about it a few weeks ago. > It seems a very good > book to study. Well, I have quite a lot of > materials to digest now, but ... > :-))) > > Anumodana, > Alex Tran > 1479 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > The result of convincing someone not to study the > Patthana > would be severe. At the least after getting out of > hell I would > be drivelling loon (this comes from keeping someone > away from > the condition for wisdom). ...so THAT's the old kamma I'm paying for now... 1480 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > hope this helps.... Sarah, this is great--thanks! > and MN, (Maj Nik, not > you, Mike I didn't realize there was already an MN here! Maybe I should just be 'Mike'? Thanks again, Sarah... Mike 1481 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] keeping up! Dear Sarah, Robert et al., This is a little worrisome. As a 'new guy', I wonder if there's some way I can mitigate the volume of mail--maybe be more selective in what 'I' 'choose' (heh heh) to post? Even if this isn't a serious problem now, is it not likely to become one in the future? mn --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > > So many excellent > >comments and letters are coming in that it is hard > to keep up. > >(keep it up). > >Robert > > I never thought I'd haear you saying this! > > Sarah > > > 1482 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 7:32am Subject: Re: Not Sure Gayan, Mike I read with interest the quote from Ajahn Chah. It is true that the `same' thoughts do keep arising time and again. What was not immediately clear to me, however, was the purpose of labelling thoughts in this way. Is this perhaps explained elsewhere in the passage? It is always useful to consider what someone says in terms of the teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of thinking is real (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities - they are concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object of awareness or understanding. Mike, I was impressed at your characterisation of the practice as `retrospection'. Not many people would be able to see why this is so. They would see it as catching the present moment, which of course it is not. You mention it as a practice for times when there is no sati. Is there perhaps a sense that if sati is not arising there must be something we can be doing, or that there could be more sati than there is? If so, this might be a hindrance to true sati arising, in that we do not at those moments realise that the right aramana for sati is already present (a reality appearing through any of the 6 doors). At such moments there is no gochara sampajanna. If, on the other hand, we are open to the possibility of sati arising without in any way changing the present moment, then that particular hindrance is absent. Reflection like this can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta even to the level of awareness, either now or in the future. With confidence that this is so, we can have patience towards that desirable object, attainment. This is progress on the path. Jonothan --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Gayan, > > Ajahn Chah's 'Yang mai na' (or something like > that--'not yet sure') is a good example of the way I > looked at things for a long time. This kind of > retrospective reflection seemed/seems to me the only > option if sati doesn't arise strongly or frequently > enough (or at all!)--that is, if the conditions just > arent' there yet for the arising of real awareness of > reality in the present moment. Lately, though, I've > grown very uneasy about this kind of retrospection. > So I'm glad you brought this up and look forward to > the group's responses. > > So glad to continue to see you on this list, sir, > > mn > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I was reading a document on one of ven.Ajahn Chah's > > preachings to a group of > > monks. > > Thought this section might help somebody..., > > > > starts here > > ------------- > > > > Whenever something arises within the mind, whether > > you like it or not, whether > > it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this > > is not a sure thing." > > Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not > > sure." With just this single ax > > you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." > > > > For the duration of this next month that you will be > > staying in this forest > > monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You > > will see the truth. This "not > > sure" is really an important one. This one develops > > wisdom. The more you look > > the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've > > cut something off with "not > > sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. > > Yes, it's truly "not sure." > > Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it > > all..."not sure." You stick the > > sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its > > turn comes, it crops up > > again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will > > see this same old one who's > > been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year > > out, from the day you were > > born. There's only this one who's been fooling you > > all along. See this and > > realize the way things are. > > > > -------------- > > > > ( not-sure-ness might help to see things without > > falling to a ditthi, cos ditthi > > may disguise itself as gnana) > > > > rgds. > > > > > > > > 1483 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 9:07am Subject: Re: Books ... Dear Mike, I told myself that I'm going to study all of the materials in Amara's and Alan's websites, plus all of the valuable books sent to me by O and Robert. Guess what? I spent all of my free time reading and re-reading the posts in the list. I even print some out, so that I can highlight them, study them, and file them in my notebook. And now, I'm going to order more books: 1. Metta, loving kindness by Sujin Boriharnwanaket 2. World in The Buddhist Sense by Nina Van Gorkom. 3. Cetasikas by NVG. Then, I'll join the Pali Text Society to get more ... :-))) It looks like I'll have enough books for the rest of my life with the way the posts here keep me in the internet! Or do we really need books when we have such an active list, plus the 2 websites by Amara and Alan? :-))) I'm not complaining because I'm in heavens right now. :-))) Anumodana, AT ==================== --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > I'm swamped with reading too! But I've just ordered > NVG's Cetasikas from Amazon UK: > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/- /welcome/468294/026-9335237-1528457 > > They say it will be available in 4-6 weeks... > > Anumodana, > > mn > 1484 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies Dear Sarah, Thank you very much! :o) This helps a lot chiram thitthathu saddhammo! gayan "Sarah Procter Abbott" on 10/26/2000 03:07:28 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats & enemies Dear Gayan, Jonothan & friends, s>--- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Jonathan, > > > > about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala > > dhammas, > > can you give us more info about this? (Thanks) > >Gayan > >I must apologise for not yet having chased up the >references to the near and far enemies. > >I recall that these terms appear particularly in >relation to the brahma-viharas (metta, mudita, karuna >& upekkha). For example, attachment is the near enemy >of metta, and pity (with dosa) that of karuna, because >the akusala one can easily be mistaken for the kusala >one. > >I think the references are found in the Visuddhimagga, >and are referred to in at least one of Nina's books. >I will check it out as soon as I have time. > >The further details you have provided on the cheating >dhammas are very interesting. > >Jonothan > Yes, the 4 brahma viharas (see J's message) all have a near and far enemy. Now I'm quoting from the Atthasalini (PTS edition p.260): ..Each of them has two enemies, near and distant. To expand: of the Divine State of love the near enemy is lust, because, like love, it sees merits. It is like a foe lurking near a man. Quickly it finds access. Hence love should be well protected from lust. Ill-will is its distant enemy. From its dissimilarity in nature it is like a man's foe dwelling in a mountain fastness, etc. hence love should be cultivated secure from ill-will. It is impossible that one should cultivate love and at the same time get angry. As to pity , one who views visible objects, desirable, lovable, endearing, delightful, associated with craving, objects which have not been obtained formerly as now past, ceased, changed, is filled with the sorrow called worldly. This, because it also contemplates adversity, is the near enemy of the Divine State of pity. From its dissimilarity in nature cruelty is the distant enemy. Hence pity should be cultivated secure from cruelty. It is impossible that one should cultivate pity and at the same time strike with the hand etc. As to sympathy (mudita), one who views visible objects, desirable, etc, is filled with joy called wordly. This, because it also contemplates prosperity, is the near enemy of the Divine State of sympathy. From its dissimilarity in nature dislike is its distant enemy. Hence sympathy should be cultivated secure from it. It is impossible that one should by sympathetic and at the same time be discontented with secluded monasteries or with the higher moral states . The fool who has seen a visible object and who is deluded, an average man who has not overcome the limits of his lower nature and result of former births, who does not see the evils of all conditioned things, is unacquainted with the teaching- this average man is filled with such indifference as is not able to transcend the visible object. Hence it is called worldly, and is mere delusion. Owing to its similarity in not considering faults and merits, it is the near enemy of the Divine State of equanimity (upekkha>. From their dissimilarity in nature, both lust and aversion are its distant enemies. Hence equanimity should be cultivated secure from them. It is impossible that one should cultivate equanimity, and at the same time be enamoured with, or hurt another.... ends. hope this helps....I'm looking f/w to when I can scan in or become more user friendly with the translations on web sites....altho' I'm not sure if the abhidhamma and commentaries are on yet??? Also this translation of pali terms like metta- love etc could be a little better. I'm sure Nina used to have a summary of this in her cetasikas manuscript but I can't find it in her Cetasikas book....Like Alex and MN, (Maj Nik, not you, Mike!), at least it got me pulling out my dusty Atthasalini! Sarah Sarah 1485 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 1:00pm Subject: Cheats......... Dear friends, I tried to translate several pages. My use of english words are lousy so bear with me. I have only 40% confidence about the words I use... 'develops',..'has'....'things' 'people' 'person' 'mind' 'good' 'bad' :o( Language and the usage has a Biig part in the inner development eventhough most of us dont understand that. starts here... ---------------------------------------------------- written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." " These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality. ( as the mud gets the shape of the object that pressed onto it.)" In the book , the venerable describes the dhammas namely mentioned in the atthakatha, and describes more dhammas using his knowledge in the abhidhamma. First , the ones from the atthakatha... 1. apatikkulasagnamukhena kamacchando vangcethi One develops the apatikkula sanna -> Looking at every living or non-living object in the same perspective. Whether the dhathu in his body,in an alien body, rocks , trees, young body, decayed body,... start to look the same. He has no disgust in the things that are disgusting to others.( phlegm,urine etc...) They look just collections of dhathus to him. He will attend to the ones in need of help, without disgusted of the filth. But Kamacchanda will disguise itself as apatikkulasanna. One has liking to the praise , profits etc .. gained by helping people.( But he knows this kamacchada is a bad quality in him) When theres a person in need , and others do not reach him beacause of the patikula things associated with helping ., theres a chance that in the former's mind the kamacchanda will arise , and he helps the person without feeling any disgust. But he thinks that apatikkula sanna has arose. It is indeed real hard to distinguish the kusala from the akusala. The only catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' is still there when the praises and profits are not associated with the helping. Another occasion is , a person may not feel disgust of the phlegm,urine etc ( you know the lot) of another person he has some raaga for.The person knows that raaga is 'bad' and apatikkula sanna is 'good', he tends to think that what he has is the apatikkula sanna. But what he ' gives in'( and gladly develops) is none other than kamacchanda. As above the catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' prevails with regarding a person who he has no raaga for. 2. patikkulasanna pathirupena vyapado vancethi One develops patikkula sanna with regarding to dhathus. ( this helps to fight with excessive Raga Whatever regarded beautiful in the normal sense , appears filthy to him. (eg. the glowing teeth of a pretty person will look as melon seeds glued to the mouth of an empty clay pot) But vyapada will disguise as patikkulasanna. One knows vyapada is 'bad' and knows tha theres a good thing called patikkula sanna. He will sometimes develop the raw vyapada , thinking that what he has is patikkula sanna. [ story of sour grapes..] so checking is needed. to be continued... 1486 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Dear mike and jonathan, So sorry that I put that section just out of the block..... what I understood was.... (first in the document itself , the warning is there ' this is preached for a group of monks in a forest monastery....') In the preaching what the venerable instructs is how to develop the samadhi, he just goes on simply abandoning the normal labels of ' first jhana, second jhana etc....' he goes on to describe the vitakka and vicara, and what he warns is ' not to be wanting to calm the mind' or do not have a ditthi that 'when calming the mind i should have this type of feeling..etc' What he says is when you 'want' to calm the mind according to your 'own' template,then that will be a pitfall. I will attach the full document here. (See attached file: heartfood.html) protectID on 10/26/2000 05:32:40 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Gayan, Mike I read with interest the quote from Ajahn Chah. It is true that the `same' thoughts do keep arising time and again. What was not immediately clear to me, however, was the purpose of labelling thoughts in this way. Is this perhaps explained elsewhere in the passage? It is always useful to consider what someone says in terms of the teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of thinking is real (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities - they are concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object of awareness or understanding. Mike, I was impressed at your characterisation of the practice as `retrospection'. Not many people would be able to see why this is so. They would see it as catching the present moment, which of course it is not. You mention it as a practice for times when there is no sati. Is there perhaps a sense that if sati is not arising there must be something we can be doing, or that there could be more sati than there is? If so, this might be a hindrance to true sati arising, in that we do not at those moments realise that the right aramana for sati is already present (a reality appearing through any of the 6 doors). At such moments there is no gochara sampajanna. If, on the other hand, we are open to the possibility of sati arising without in any way changing the present moment, then that particular hindrance is absent. Reflection like this can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta even to the level of awareness, either now or in the future. With confidence that this is so, we can have patience towards that desirable object, attainment. This is progress on the path. Jonothan --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Gayan, > > Ajahn Chah's 'Yang mai na' (or something like > that--'not yet sure') is a good example of the way I > looked at things for a long time. This kind of > retrospective reflection seemed/seems to me the only > option if sati doesn't arise strongly or frequently > enough (or at all!)--that is, if the conditions just > arent' there yet for the arising of real awareness of > reality in the present moment. Lately, though, I've > grown very uneasy about this kind of retrospection. > So I'm glad you brought this up and look forward to > the group's responses. > > So glad to continue to see you on this list, sir, > > mn > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I was reading a document on one of ven.Ajahn Chah's > > preachings to a group of > > monks. > > Thought this section might help somebody..., > > > > starts here > > ------------- > > > > Whenever something arises within the mind, whether > > you like it or not, whether > > it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this > > is not a sure thing." > > Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not > > sure." With just this single ax > > you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." > > > > For the duration of this next month that you will be > > staying in this forest > > monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You > > will see the truth. This "not > > sure" is really an important one. This one develops > > wisdom. The more you look > > the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've > > cut something off with "not > > sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. > > Yes, it's truly "not sure." > > Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it > > all..."not sure." You stick the > > sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its > > turn comes, it crops up > > again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will > > see this same old one who's > > been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year > > out, from the day you were > > born. There's only this one who's been fooling you > > all along. See this and > > realize the way things are. > > > > -------------- > > > > ( not-sure-ness might help to see things without > > falling to a ditthi, cos ditthi > > may disguise itself as gnana) > > > > rgds. > > > > > > > > Help | Home » Theravada Text Archives » Thai Forest Traditions » Ajaan Chah Food for the Heart by Venerable Ajahn Chah Copyright © 1992 The Sangha, Wat Pah Nanachat For free distribution only. Any reproduction, in whole or part, in any form, for sale, profit or material gain, is prohibited. However, copies of this book, or permission to reprint for free distribution, may be obtained upon notification. The Abbot Wat Pah Nanachat Bahn Bung Wai Warinchamrab Ubol Rajathani 34310 Thailand First Impression 1992. This electronic edition was transcribed from the print edition in 1994 by David Savage under the auspices of the DharmaNet Dharma Book Transcription Project, with the kind permission of the copyright holder. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contents Introduction Dhamma Fighting Understanding Vinaya Maintaining the Standard Right Practice -- Steady Practice Samma Samadhi -- Detachment Within Activity The Flood of Sensuality In the Dead of Night... Sense Contact -- the Fount of Wisdom "Not Sure!" -- The Standard of the Noble Ones Transcendence Notes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Introduction One of the most notable features of Venerable Ajahn Chah's teaching was the emphasis he gave to the Sangha, the monastic order, and its use as a vehicle for Dhamma practice. This is not to deny his unique gift for teaching lay people, which enabled him to communicate brilliantly with people from all walks of life, be they simple farmers or University professors. But the results he obtained with teaching and creating solid Sangha communities are plainly visible in the many monasteries which grew up around him, both within Thailand and, later, in England, Australia, Europe and elsewhere. Ajahn Chah foresaw the necessity of establishing the Sangha in the West if long-term results were to be realized. This book is a collection of talks he gave to the monastic communities in Thailand. They are exhortations given to the communities of bhikkhus, or Buddhist monks, at his own monastery, Wat Ba Pong, and some of its branches. This fact should be born in mind by the lay reader. These talks are not intended to, and indeed cannot, serve as an introduction to Buddhism and meditation practice. They are monastic teachings, addressed primarily to the lifestyle and problems particular to that situation. A knowledge of the basics of Buddhism on the part of the listener was assumed. Many of the talks will thus seem strange and even daunting to the lay reader, with their emphasis on conformity and renunciation. For the lay reader, then, it is essential to bear in mind the environment within which these talks were given -- the rugged, austere, poverty-stricken North-East corner of Thailand, birth place of most of Thailand's great meditation teachers and almost its entire forest monastic tradition. The people of the North-East are honed by this environment to a rugged simplicity and gentle patience which make them ideal candidates for the forest monk's lifestyle. Within this environment, in small halls dimly lit by paraffin lamps, surrounded by the assembly of monks, Ajahn Chah gave his teachings. Exhortations by the master occurred typically at the end of the fortnightly recitation of the Patimokkha, the monks' code of discipline. Their content would be decided by the current situation -- slackness in the practice, confusion about the rules, or just plain "unenlightenment." In a lifestyle characterized by simplicity and contentment with little, complacency is an ongoing tendency, so that talks for arousing diligent effort were a regular occurrence. The talks themselves are spontaneous reflections and exhortations rather than systematic teachings as most Westerners would know them. The listener was required to give full attention in the present moment and to reflect back on his own practice accordingly, rather than to memorize the teachings by rote or analyze them in terms of logic. In this way he could become aware of his own shortcomings and learn how to best put into effect the skillful means offered by the teacher. Although meant primarily for a monastic resident -- be one a monk, nun or novice -- the interested lay reader will no doubt obtain many insights into Buddhist practice from this book. At the very least there are the numerous anecdotes of the Venerable Ajahn's own practice which abound throughout the book; these can be read simply as biographical material or as instruction for mind training. From the contents of this book, it will be seen that the training of the mind is not, as many believe, simply a matter of sitting with the eyes closed or perfecting a meditation technique, but is, as Ajahn Chah would say, a great renunciation. The translator -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dhamma Fighting Fight greed, fight aversion, fight delusion...these are the enemy. In the practice of Buddhism, the path of the Buddha, we fight with Dhamma, using patient endurance. We fight by resisting our countless moods. Dhamma and the world are inter-related. Where there is Dhamma there is the world, where there is the world there is Dhamma. Where there are defilements there are those who conquer defilements, who do battle with them. This is called fighting inwardly. To fight outwardly people take hold of bombs and guns to throw and to shoot; they conquer and are conquered. Conquering others is the way of the world. In the practice of Dhamma we don't have to fight others, but instead conquer our own minds, patiently enduring and resisting all our moods. When it comes to Dhamma practice we don't harbor resentment and enmity amongst ourselves, but instead let go of all forms of ill-will in our own actions and thoughts, freeing ourselves from jealousy, aversion and resentment. Hatred can only be overcome by not harboring resentment and bearing grudges. Hurtful actions and reprisals are different but closely related. Actions once done are finished with, there's no need to answer with revenge and hostility. This is called "action" (kamma). "Reprisal" (vera) means to continue that action further with thoughts of "you did it to me so I'm going to get you back." There's no end to this. It brings about the continual seeking of revenge, and so hatred is never abandoned. As long as we behave like this the chain remains unbroken, there's no end to it. No matter where we go, the feuding continues. The Supreme Teacher [1] taught the world, he had compassion for all worldly beings. But the world nevertheless goes on like this. The wise should look into this and select those things which are of true value. The Buddha had trained in the various arts of warfare as a prince, but he saw that they weren't really useful, they are limited to the world with its fighting and aggression. Therefore, in training ourselves as those who have left the world, we must learn to give up all forms of evil, giving up all those things which are the cause for enmity. We conquer ourselves, we don't try to conquer others. We fight, but we fight only the defilements; if there is greed, we fight that; if there is aversion, we fight that; if there is delusion, we strive to give it up. This is called "Dhamma fighting." This warfare of the heart is really difficult, in fact it's the most difficult thing of all. We become monks in order to contemplate this, to learn the art of fighting greed, aversion and delusion. This is our prime responsibility. This is the inner battle, fighting with defilements. But there are very few people who fight like this. Most people fight with other things, they rarely fight defilements. They rarely even see them. The Buddha taught us to give up all forms of evil and cultivate virtue. This is the right path. Teaching in this way is like the Buddha picking us up and placing us at the beginning of the path. Having reached the path, whether we walk along it or not is up to us. The Buddha's job is finished right there. He shows the way, that which is right and that which is not right. This much is enough, the rest is up to us. Now, having reached the path we still don't know anything, we still haven't seen anything, so we must learn. To learn we must be prepared to endure some hardship, just like students in the world. It's difficult enough to obtain the knowledge and learning necessary for them to pursue their careers. They have to endure. When they think wrongly or feel averse or lazy they must force themselves before they can graduate and get a job. The practice for a monk is similar. If we determine to practice and contemplate, then we will surely see the way. Ditthimana is a harmful thing. Ditthi means "view" or "opinion." All forms of view are called ditthi: seeing good as evil, seeing evil as good...any way whatsoever that we see things. This is not the problem. The problem lies with the clinging to those views, called mana; holding on to those views as if they were the truth. This leads us to spin around from birth to death, never reaching completion, just because of that clinging. So the Buddha urged us to let go of views. If many people live together, as we do here, they can still practice comfortably if their views are in harmony. But even two or three monks would have difficulty if their views were not good or harmonious. When we humble ourselves and let go of our views, even if there are many of us, we come together at the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. [2] It's not true to say that there will be disharmony just because there are many of us. Just look at a millipede. A millipede has many legs, doesn't it? Just looking at it you'd think it would have difficulty walking, but actually it doesn't. It has its own order and rhythm. In our practice it's the same. If we practice as the Noble Sangha of the Buddha practiced, then it's easy. That is, supatipanno -- those who practice well; ujupatipanno -- those who practice straightly; ńanapatipanno -- those who practice to transcend suffering, and samicipatipanno -- those who practice properly. These four qualities, established within us, will make us true members of Sangha. Even if we number in the hundreds or thousands, no matter how many we are, we all travel the same path. We come from different backgrounds, but we are the same. Even though our views may differ, if we practice correctly there will be no friction. Just like all the rivers and streams which flow to the sea...once they enter the sea they all have the same taste and color. It's the same with people. When they enter the stream of Dhamma, it's the one Dhamma. Even though they come from different places, they harmonize, they merge. But the thinking which causes all the disputes and conflict is ditthi-mana. Therefore the Buddha taught us to let go of views. Don't allow mana to cling to those views beyond their relevance. The Buddha taught the value of constant sati, [3] recollection. Whether we are standing, walking, sitting or reclining, wherever we are, we should have this power of recollection. When we have sati we see ourselves, we see our own minds. We see the "body within the body," "the mind within the mind." If we don't have sati we don't know anything, we aren't aware of what is happening. So sati is very important. With constant sati we will listen to the Dhamma of the Buddha at all times. This is because "eye seeing forms" is Dhamma; "ear hearing sounds" is Dhamma; "nose smelling odors" is Dhamma; "tongue tasting flavors" is Dhamma; "body feeling sensations" is Dhamma; when impressions arise in the mind, that is Dhamma also. Therefore one who has constant sati always hears the Buddha's teaching. The Dhamma is always there. Why? Because of sati, because we are aware. Sati is recollection, sampajańńa is self-awareness. This awareness is the actual Buddho, the Buddha. When there is sati-sampajańńa, understanding will follow. We know what is going on. When the eye sees forms: is this proper or improper? When the ear hears sound: is this the appropriate or inappropriate? Is it harmful? Is it wrong, is it right? And so on like this with everything. If we understand we hear the Dhamma all the time. So let us all understand that right now we are learning in the midst of Dhamma. Whether we go forward or step back, we meet the Dhamma -- it's all Dhamma if we have sati? Even seeing the animals running around in the forest we can reflect, seeing that all animals are the same as us. They run away from suffering and chase after happiness, just as people do. Whatever they don't like they avoid; they are afraid of dying, just like people. If we reflect on this, we see that all beings in the world, people as well, are the same in their various instincts. Thinking like this is called "bhavana," [4] seeing according to the truth, that all beings are companions in birth, old age, sickness and death. Animals are the same as human beings and human beings are the same as animals. If we really see things the way they are our mind will give up attachment to them. Therefore it is said we must have sati. If we have sati we will see the state of our own mind. Whatever we are thinking or feeling we must know it. This knowing is called Buddho, the Buddha, the one who knows...who knows thoroughly, who knows clearly and completely. When the mind knows completely we find the right practice. So the straight way to practice is to have mindfulness, sati. If you are without sati for five minutes you are crazy for five minutes, heedless for five minutes. whenever you are lacking in sati you are crazy. Sati is essential. To have sati is to know yourself, to know the condition of your mind and your life. This is to have understanding and discernment, to listen to the Dhamma at all times. After leaving the teacher's discourse, you still hear the Dhamma, because the Dhamma is everywhere. So therefore, all of you, be sure to practice every day. Whether lazy or diligent, practice just the same. Practice of the Dhamma is not done by following your moods. If you practice following your moods then it's not Dhamma. Don't discriminate between day and night, whether the mind is peaceful or not...just practice. It's like a child who is learning to write. At first he doesn't write nicely -- big, long loops and squiggles -- he writes like a child. After a while the writing improves through practice. Practicing the Dhamma is like this. At first you are awkward...sometimes calm, sometimes not, you don't really know what's what. Some people get discouraged. Don't slacken off! You must persevere with the practice. Live with effort, just like the schoolboy: as he gets older he writes better and better. From writing badly he grows to write beautifully, all because of the practice from childhood. Our practice is like this. Try to have recollection at all times: standing, walking, sitting or reclining. When we perform our various duties smoothly and well, we feel peace of mind. When there is peace of mind in our work it's easy to have peaceful meditation, they go hand in hand. So make an effort. You should all make an effort to follow the practice. This is training. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Understanding Vinaya This practice of ours is not easy. We may know some things but there is still much that we don't know. For example, when we hear teachings such as "know the body, then know the mind within the body"; or "know the mind, then know the mind within the mind." If we haven't yet practiced these things, then we hear them we may feel baffled. The Vinaya [5] is like this. In the past I used to be a teacher, [6] but I was only a "small teacher," not a big one. Why do I say a "small teacher"? Because I didn't practice. I taught the Vinaya but I didn't practice it. This I call a small teacher, an inferior teacher. I say an "inferior teacher" because when it came to the practice I was deficient. For the most part my practice was a long way off the theory, just as if I hadn't learnt the Vinaya at all. However, I would like to state that in practical terms it's impossible to know the Vinaya completely, because some things, whether we know them or not, are still offenses. This is tricky. And yet it is stressed that if we do not yet understand any particular training rule or teaching, we must study that rule with enthusiasm and respect. If we don't know, then we should make an effort to learn. If we don't make an effort, that is in itself an offense. For example, if you doubt...suppose there is a woman and, not knowing whether she is a woman or a man, you touch her. [7] You're not sure, but still go ahead and touch...that's still wrong. I used to wonder why that should be wrong, but when I considered the practice, I realized that a meditator must have sati, he must be circumspect. Whether talking, touching or holding things, he must first thoroughly consider. The error in this case is that there is no sati, or insufficient sati, or a lack of concern at that time. Take another example: it's only eleven o'clock in the morning but at the time the sky is cloudy, we can't see the sun, and we have no clock. Now suppose we estimate that it's probably afternoon...we really feel that it's afternoon...and yet we proceed to eat something. We start eating and then the clouds part and we see from the position of the sun that it's only just past eleven. This is still an offense. [8] I used to wonder, "Eh? It's not yet past mid-day, why is this an offense?" An offense is incurred here because of negligence, carelessness, we don't thoroughly consider. There is a lack of restraint. If there is doubt and we act on the doubt, there is a dukkata [9] offense just for acting in the face of the doubt. We think that it is afternoon when in fact it isn't. The act of eating is not wrong in itself, but there is an offense here because we are careless and negligent. If it really is afternoon but we think it isn't, then it's the heavier pacittiya offense. If we act with doubt, whether the action is wrong or not, we still incur an offense. If the action is not wrong in itself it is the lesser offense; if it is wrong then the heavier offense is incurred. Therefore the Vinaya can get quite bewildering. At one time I went to see Venerable Ajahn Mun. [10] At that time I had just begun to practice. I had read the Pubbasikkha [11] and could understand that fairly well. Then I went on to read the Visuddhimagga, where the author writes of the Silanidesa (Book of Precepts), Samadhinidesa (Book of Mind-Training) and Pańńanidesa (Book of Understanding)...I felt my head was going to burst! After reading that, I felt that it was beyond the ability of a human being to practice. But then I reflected that the Buddha would not teach something that is impossible to practice. He wouldn't teach it and he wouldn't declare it, because those things would be useful neither to himself nor to others. The Silanidesa is extremely meticulous, the Samadhinidesa more so, and the Pańńanidesa even more so! I sat and thought, "Well, I can't go any further. There's no way ahead." It was as if I'd reached a dead-end. At this stage I was struggling with my practice...I was stuck. It so happened that I had a chance to go and see Venerable Ajahn Mun, so I asked him: "Venerable Ajahn, what am I to do? I've just begun to practice but I still don't know the right way. I have so many doubts I can't find any foundation at all in the practice." He asked, "What's the problem?" "In the course of my practice I picked up the Visuddhimagga and read it, but it seems impossible to put into practice. The contents of the Silanidesa, Samadhinidesa and Pańńanidesa seem to be completely impractical. I don't think there is anybody in the world who could do it, it's so detailed and meticulous. To memorize every single rule would be impossible, it's beyond me." He said to me: "Venerable...there's a lot, it's true, but it's really only a little. If we were to take account of every training rule in the Silanidesa that would be difficult...true...But actually, what we call the Silanidesa has evolved from the human mind. If we train this mind to have a sense of shame and a fear of wrong-doing, we will then be restrained, we will be cautious.... "This will condition us to be content with little, with few wishes, because we can't possibly look after a lot. When this happens our sati becomes stronger. We will be able to maintain sati at all times. Wherever we are we will make the effort to maintain thorough sati. Caution will be developed. Whatever you doubt don't say it, don't act on it. If there's anything you don't understand, ask the teacher. Trying to practice every single training rule would indeed be burdensome, but we should examine whether we are prepared to admit our faults or not. Do we accept them?" This teaching is very important. It's not so much that we must know every single training rule, if we know how to train our own minds. "All that stuff that you've been reading arises from the mind. If you still haven't trained your mind to have sensitivity and clarity you will be doubting all the time. You should try to bring the teachings of the Buddha into your mind. Be composed in mind. Whatever arises that you doubt, just give it up. If you don't really know for sure then don't say it or do it. For instance, if you wonder, "Is this wrong or not?" -- that is, you're not really sure -- then don't say it, don't act on it, don't discard your restraint." As I sat and listened, I reflected that this teaching conformed with the eight ways for measuring the true teaching of the Buddha: Any teaching that speaks of the diminishing of defilements; which leads out of suffering; which speaks of renunciation (of sensual pleasures); of contentment with little; of humility and disinterest in rank and status; of aloofness and seclusion; of diligent effort; of being easy to maintain...these eight qualities are characteristics of the true Dhamma-vinaya, the teaching of the Buddha. anything in contradiction to these is not. "If we are genuinely sincere we will have a sense of shame and a fear of wrongdoing. We will know that if there is doubt in our mind we will not act on it nor speak on it. The Silanidesa is only words. For example, hiri-ottappa [12] in the books is one thing, but in our minds it is another." Studying the Vinaya with Venerable Ajahn Mun I learnt many things. As I sat and listened, understanding arose. So, when it comes to the Vinaya I've studied considerably. Some days during the Rains Retreat I would study from six o'clock in the evening through till dawn. I understand it sufficiently. All the factors of apatti [13] which are covered in the Pubbasikkha I wrote down in a notebook and kept in my bag. I really put effort into it, but in later times I gradually let go. It was too much. I didn't know which was the essence and which was the trimming, I had just taken all of it. When I understood more fully I let it drop off because it was too heavy. I just put my attention into my own mind and gradually did away with the texts. However, when I teach the monks here I still take the Pubbasikkha as my standard. For many years here at Wat Ba Pong it was I myself who read it to the assembly. In those days I would ascend the Dhamma-seat and go on until at least eleven o'clock or midnight, some days even one or two o'clock in the morning. We were interested. And we trained. After listening to the Vinaya reading we would go and consider what we'd heard. You can't really understand the Vinaya just by listening to it. Having listened to it you must examine it and delve into it further. Even though I studied these things for many years my knowledge was still not complete, because there were so many ambiguities in the texts. Now that it's been such a long time since I looked at the books, my memory of the various training rules has faded somewhat, but within my mind there is no deficiency. There is a standard there. There is no doubt, there is understanding. I put away the books and concentrated on developing my own mind. I don't have doubts about any of the training rules. The mind has an appreciation of virtue, it won't dare do anything wrong, whether in public or in private. I do not kill animals, even small ones. If someone were to ask me to intentionally kill an ant or a termite, to squash one with my hand, for instance, I couldn't do it, even if they were to offer me thousands of baht to do so. Even one ant or termite! The ant's life would have greater value to me. However, it may be that I may cause one to die, such as when something crawls up my leg and I brush it off. Maybe it dies, but when I look into my mind there is no feeling of guilt. There is no wavering or doubt. Why? Because there was no intention. Silam vadami bhikkhave cetanaham: "Intention is the essence of moral training." Looking at it in this way I see that there was no intentional killing. Sometimes while walking I may step on an insect and kill it. In the past, before I really understood, I would really suffer over things like that. I would think I had committed an offense. "What? There was no intention." "There was no intention, but I wasn't being careful enough!" I would go on like this, fretting and worrying. So this Vinaya is something which can be disturb practicers of Dhamma, but it also has its value, in keeping with what the teachers say -- "Whatever training rules you don't yet know you should learn. If you don't know you should question those who do." They really stress this. Now if we don't know the training rules, we won't be aware of our transgressions against them. Take, for example, a Venerable Thera of the past, Ajahn Pow of Wat Kow Wong Got in Lopburi Province. One day a certain Maha, [14] a disciple of his, was sitting with him, when some women came up and asked, "Luang Por! We want to invite you to go with us on an excursion, will you go?" Luang Por Pow didn't answer. The Maha sitting near him thought that Venerable Ajahn Pow hadn't heard, so he said, "Luang Por, Luang Por! Did you hear? These women invited you to go for a trip." He said, "I heard." The women asked again, "Luang Por, are you going or not?" He just sat there without answering, and so nothing came of the invitation. When they had gone, the Maha said, "Luang Por, why didn't you answer those women?" He said, "Oh, Maha, don't you know this rule? Those people who were here just now were all women. If women invite you to travel with them you should not consent. If they make the arrangements themselves that's fine. If I want to go I can, because I didn't take part in making the arrangements." "The Maha sat and thought, "Oh, I've really made a fool of myself." The Vinaya states that to make an arrangement, and then travel together with, women, even though it isn't as a couple, is a pacittiya offense. Take another case. Lay people would bring money to offer Venerable Ajahn Pow on a tray. He would extend his receiving cloth, [15] holding it at one end. But when they brought the tray forward to lay it on the cloth he would retract his hand from the cloth. Then he would simply abandon the money where it lay. He knew it was there, but he would take no interest in it, just get up and walk away, because in the Vinaya it is said that if one doesn't consent to the money it isn't necessary to forbid laypeople from offering it. If he had desire for it, he would have to say, "Householder, this is not allowable for a monk." He would have to tell them. If you have desire for it, you must forbid them from offering that which is unallowable. However, if you really have no desire for it, it isn't necessary. You just leave it there and go. Although the Ajahn and his disciples lived together for many years, still some of his disciples didn't understand Ajahn Pow's practice. This is a poor state of affairs. As for myself, I looked into and contemplated many of Venerable Ajahn Pow's subtler points of practice. The Vinaya can even cause some people to disrobe. When they study it all the doubts come up. It goes right back into the past..."my ordination, was it proper? [16] Was my preceptor pure? None of the monks who sat in on my ordination knew anything about the Vinaya, were they sitting at the proper distance? Was the chanting correct?" The doubts come rolling on..."The hall I ordained in, was it proper? It was so small..." They doubt everything and fall into hell. So until you know how to ground your mind it's really difficult. You have to be very cool, you can't just jump into things. But to be so cool that you don't bother to look into things is wrong also. I was so confused I almost disrobed because I saw so many faults within my own practice and that of some of my teachers. I was on fire and couldn't sleep because of those doubts. The more I doubted, the more I meditated, the more I practiced. Wherever doubt arose I practiced right at that point. Wisdom arose. Things began to change. It's hard to describe the change that took place. The mind changed until there was no more doubt. I don't know how it changed, if I were to tell someone they probably wouldn't understand. So I reflected on the teaching Paccattam veditabbo vińńuhi -- the wise must know for themselves. It must be a knowing that arises through direct experience. Studying the Dhamma-vinaya is certainly correct but if it's just the study it's still lacking. If you really get down to the practice you begin to doubt everything. Before I started to practice I wasn't interested in the minor offenses, but when I started practicing, even the dukkata offenses became as important as the parajika offenses. Before, the dukkata offenses seemed like nothing, just a trifle. That's how I saw them. In the evening you could confess them and they would be done with. Then you could transgress them again. This sort of confession is impure, because you don't stop, you don't decide to change. There is no restraint, you simply do it again and again. There is no perception of the truth, no letting go. Actually, in terms of ultimate truth, it's not necessary to go through the routine of confessing offenses. If we see that our mind is pure and there is no trace of doubt, then those offenses drop off right there. That we are not yet pure is because we still doubt, we still waver. We are not really pure so we can't let go. We don't see ourselves, this is the point. This Vinaya of ours is like a fence to guard us from making mistakes, so it's something we need to be scrupulous with. If you don't see the true value of the Vinaya for yourself it's difficult. Many years before I came to Wat Ba Pong I decided I would give up money. For the greater part of a Rains Retreat I had thought about it. In the end I grabbed my wallet and walked over to a certain Maha who was living with me at the time, setting the wallet down in front of him. "Here, Maha, take this money. From today onwards, as long as I'm a monk, I will not receive or hold money. You can be my witness." "You keep it, Venerable, you may need it for your studies"...The Venerable Maha wasn't keen to take the money, he was embarrassed... "Why do you want to throw away all this money?" "You don't have to worry about me. I've made my decision. I decided last night." From the day he took that money it was as if a gap had opened between us. We could no longer understand each other. He's still my witness to this very day. Ever since that day I haven't used money or engaged in any buying or selling. I've been restrained in every way with money. I was constantly wary of wrongdoing, even though I hadn't done anything wrong. Inwardly I maintained the meditation practice. I no longer needed wealth, I saw it as a poison. Whether you give poison to a human being, a dog or anything else, it invariably causes death or suffering. If we see clearly like this we will be constantly on our guard not to take that "poison." When we clearly see the harm in it, it's not difficult to give up. Regarding food and meals brought as offerings, if I doubted them I wouldn't accept them. No matter how delicious or refined the food might be, I wouldn't eat it. Take a simple example, like raw pickled fish. Suppose you are living in a forest and you go on almsround and receive only rice and some pickled fish wrapped in leaves. When you return to your dwelling and open the packet you find that it's raw pickled fish...just throw it away! [17] Eating plain rice is better than transgressing the precepts. It has to be like this before you can say you really understand, then the Vinaya becomes simpler. If other monks wanted to give me requisites, such as bowl, razor or whatever, I wouldn't accept, unless I knew them as fellow practicers with a similar standard of Vinaya. Why not? How can you trust someone who is unrestrained? They can do all sorts of things. Unrestrained monks don't see the value of the Vinaya, so it's possible that they could have obtained those things in improper ways. I was as scrupulous as this. As a result, some of my fellow monks would look askance at me..."He doesn't socialize, he won't mix..." I was unmoved: "Sure, we can mix when we die. When it comes to death we are all in the same boat," I thought. I lived with endurance. I was one who spoke little. If others criticized my practice I was unmoved. Why? Because even if I explained to them they wouldn't understand. They knew nothing about practice. Like those times when I would be invited to a funeral ceremony and somebody would say, "...Don't listen to him! Just put the money in his bag and don't say anything about it...don't let him know." [18] I would say, "Hey, do you think I'm dead or something? Just because one calls alcohol perfume doesn't make it become perfume, you know. But you people, when you want to drink alcohol you call it perfume, then go ahead and drink. You must be crazy!". The Vinaya, then, can be difficult. You have to be content with little, aloof. You must see, and see right. Once, when I was traveling through Saraburi, my group went to stay in a village temple for a while. The Abbot there had about the same seniority as myself. In the morning, we would all go on almsround together, then come back to the monastery and put down our bowls. Presently the laypeople would bring dishes of food into the hall and set them down. Then the monks would go and pick them up, open them and lay them in a line to be formally offered. One monk would put his hand on the dish at the other end. And that was it! With that the monks would bring them over and distribute them to be eaten. About five monks were traveling with me at the time, but not one of us would touch that food. On almsround all we received was plain rice, so we sat with them and ate plain rice, none of us would dare eat the food from those dishes. This went on for quite a few days, until I began to sense that the Abbot was disturbed by our behavior. One of his monks had probably gone to him and said, "Those visiting monks won't eat any of the food. I don't know what they're up to." I had to stay there for a few days more, so I went to the Abbot to explain. I said, "Venerable Sir, may I have a moment please? At this time I have some business which means I must call on your hospitality for some days, but in doing so I'm afraid there may be one or two things which you and your fellow monks find puzzling: namely, concerning our not eating the food which has been offered by the laypeople. I'd like to clarify this with you, sir. It's really nothing, it's just that I've learned to practice like this...that is, the receiving of the offerings, sir. When the lay people lay the food down and then the monks go and open the dishes, sort them out and then have them formally offered...this is wrong. It's a dukkata offense. Specifically, to handle or touch food which hasn't yet been formally offered into a monk's hands, "ruins" that food. According to the Vinaya, any monk who eats that food incurs an offense. "It's simply this one point, sir. It's not that I'm criticizing anybody, or that I'm trying to force you or your monks to stop practicing like this...not at all. I just wanted to let you know of my good intentions, because it will be necessary for me to stay here for a few more days. He lifted his hands in ańjali, [19] "Sadhu! Excellent! I've never yet seen a monk who keeps the minor rules in Saraburi. there aren't any to be found these days. If there still are such monks they must live outside of Saraburi. May I commend you. I have no objections at all, that's very good." The next morning when we came back from almsround not one of the monks would go near those dishes. The laypeople themselves sorted them out and offered them, because they were afraid the monks wouldn't eat. From that day onwards the monks and novices there seemed really on edge, so I tried to explain things to them, to put their minds at rest. I think they were afraid of us, they just went into their rooms and closed themselves in in silence. For two or three days I tried to make them feel at ease because they were so ashamed, I really had nothing against them. I didn't say things like "There's not enough food," or "bring 'this' or 'that' food." Why not? Because I had fasted before, sometimes for seven or eight days. Here I had plain rice, I knew I wouldn't die. Where I got my strength from was the practice, from having studied and practiced accordingly. I took the Buddha as my example. Wherever I went, whatever others did, I wouldn't involve myself. I devoted myself solely to the practice, because I cared for myself, I cared for the practice. Those who don't keep the Vinaya or practice meditation and those who do practice can't live together, they must go separate ways. I didn't understand this myself in the past. As a teacher I taught others but I didn't practice. This is really bad. When I looked deeply into it, my practice and my knowledge were as far apart as earth and sky. Therefore, those who want to go and set up meditation centers in the forest...don't do it. If you don't yet really know, don't bother trying, you'll only make a mess of it. Some monks think that going to live in the forest they will find peace, but they still don't understand the essentials of practice. They cut grass for themselves, [20] do everything themselves...Those who really know the practice aren't interested in places like this, they won't prosper. Doing it like that won't lead to progress. No matter how peaceful the forest may be you can't progress if you do it wrong. They see the forest monks living in the forest and go to live in the forest like them, but it's not the same. The robes are not the same, eating habits are not the same, everything is different. Namely, they don't train themselves, they don't practice. The place is wasted, it doesn't really work. If it does work, it does so only as a venue for showing off or publicizing, just like a medicine show. It goes no further than that. Those who have only practiced a little and then go to teach others are not yet ripe, they don't really understand. In a short time they give up and it falls apart. It just brings trouble. So we must study somewhat, look at the Navakovada, [21] what does it say? Study it, memorize it, until you understand. From time to time ask your teacher concerning the finer points, he will explain them. Study like this until you really understand the Vinaya. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maintaining the Standard Today we are meeting together as we do every year after the annual Dhamma examinations. [22] At this time all of you should reflect on the importance of carrying out the various duties of the monastery, those toward the preceptor and those toward the teachers. These are what hold us together as a single group, enabling us to live in harmony and concord. They are also what lead us to have respect for each other, which in turn benefits the community. In all communities, from the time of the Buddha till the present, no matter what form they may take, if the residents have no mutual respect they cannot succeed. Whether they be secular communities or monastic ones, if they lack mutual respect they have no solidarity. If there is no mutual respect, negligence sets in and the practice eventually degenerates. Our community of Dhamma practicers has lived here for about twenty five years now, steadily growing, but it could deteriorate. We must understand this point. But if we are all heedful, have mutual respect and continue to maintain the standards of practice, I feel that our harmony will be firm. Our practice as a group will be a source of growth for Buddhism for a long time to come. Now in regard to the study and the practice, they are a pair. Buddhism has grown and flourished until the present time because of the study going hand in hand with practice. If we simply learn the scriptures in a heedless way negligence sets in...For example, in the first year here we had seven monks for the Rains Retreat. At that time, I thought to myself, "Whenever monks start studying for Dhamma Examinations the practice seems to degenerate." Considering this, I tried to determine the cause, so I began to teach the monks who were there for the Rains Retreat -- all seven of them. I taught for about forty days, from after the meal till six in the evening, every day. The monks went for the exams and it turned out there was a good result in that respect, all seven of them passed. That much was good, but there was a certain complication regarding those who were lacking in circumspection. To study, it is necessary to do a lot of reciting and repeating. Those who are unrestrained and unreserved tend to grow lax with the meditation practice and spend all their time studying, repeating and memorizing. This causes them to throw out their old abiding, their standards of practice. And this happens very often. So it was when they had finished their studies and taken their exams I could see a change in the behavior of the monks. There was no walking meditation, only a little sitting, and an increase in socializing. There was less restraint and composure. Actually, in our practice, when you do walking meditation, you should really determine to walk; when sitting in meditation, you should concentrate on doing just that. Whether you are standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you should strive to be composed. But when people do a lot of study, their minds are full of words, they get high on the books and forget themselves. They get lost in externals. Now this is so only for those who don't have wisdom, who are unrestrained and don't have steady sati. For these people studying can be a cause for decline. When such people are engaged in study they don't do any sitting or walking meditation and become less and less restrained. Their minds become more and more distracted. Aimless chatter, lack of restraint and socializing become the order of the day. This is the cause for the decline of the practice. It's not because of the study in itself, but because certain people don't make the effort, they forget themselves. Actually the scriptures are pointers along the path of practice. If we really understand the practice, then reading or studying are both further aspects of meditation. But if we study and then forget ourselves it gives rise to a lot of talking and fruitless activity. People throw out the meditation practice and soon want to disrobe. Most of those who study and fail soon disrobe. It's not that the study is not good, or that the practice is not right. It's that people fail to examine themselves. Seeing this, in the second rains retreat I stopped teaching the scriptures. Many years later more and more young men came to become monks. Some of them knew nothing about the Dhamma-Vinaya and were ignorant of the texts, so I decided to rectify the situation, asking those senior monks who had already studied to teach, and they have taught up until the present time. This is how we came to have studying here. However, every year when the exams are finished, I ask all the monks to re-establish their practice. All those scriptures which aren't directly concerned with the practice, put them away in the cupboards. Re-establish yourselves, go back to the regular standards. Re-establish the communal practices such as coming together for the daily chanting. This is our standard. Do it even if only to resist your own laziness and aversion. This encourages diligence. Don't discard your basic practices: eating little, speaking little, sleeping little; restraint and composure; aloofness; regular walking and sitting meditation; meeting together regularly at the appropriate times. Please make an effort with these, every one of you. Don't let this excellent opportunity go to waste. Do the practice. You have this chance to practice here because you live under the guidance of the teacher. He protects you on one level, so you should all devote yourselves to the practice. You've done walking meditation before, now also you should sit. In the past you've chanted together in the mornings and evenings, and now also you should make the effort. These are your specific duties, please apply yourselves to them. Those who simply "kill time" in the robes don't have any strength, you know. The ones who are floundering, homesick, confused...do you see them? These are the ones who don't put their minds into the practice. They don't have any work to do. We can't just lie around here. Being a Buddhist monk or novice you live and eat well, you shouldn't take it for granted. Kamasukhallikanuyogo [23] is a danger. Make an effort to find your own practice. Whatever is faulty, work to rectify, don't get lost in externals. One who has zeal never misses walking and sitting meditation, never lets up in the maintenance of restraint and composure. Just observe the monks here. Whoever, having finished the meal and any business there may be, having hung out his robes, walks meditation -- and when we walk past his kuti [24] we see the walking path a well-worn trail, and we see it often -- this monk is not bored with the practice. This is one who has effort, who has zeal. If all of you devote yourselves like this to the practice, then not many problems will arise. If you don't abide with the practice, the walking and sitting meditation, there's nothing more than just traveling around. Not liking it here you go traveling over there; not liking it there you come touring back here. That's all there is to it, following your noses everywhere. These people don't persevere, it's good enough. You don't have to do a lot of traveling around, just stay here and develop the practice, learn it in detail. Traveling round can wait till later, it's not difficult. Make an effort, all of you. Prosperity and decline hinge on this. If you really want to do things properly, then study and practice in proportion; use both of them together. It's like the body and the mind. If the mind is at ease and the body free of disease and healthy, then the mind becomes composed. If the mind is confused, even if the body is strong there will be difficulty, let alone when the body experiences discomfort. The study of meditation is the study of cultivation and relinquishment. What I mean by study here is: whenever the mind experiences a sensation, do we still cling to it? Do we still create problems around it? Do we still experience enjoyment or aversion over it? To put it simply: Do we still get lost in our thoughts? Yes, we do. If we don't like something we react with aversion; if we do like it we react with pleasure, the mind becomes defiled and stained. If this is the case then we must see that we still have faults, we are still imperfect, we still have work to do. There must be more relinquishing and more persistent cultivation. This is what I mean by studying. If we get stuck on anything, we recognize that we are stuck. We know what state we're in, and we work to correct ourselves. Living with the teacher or apart from the teacher should be the same. Some people are afraid. They're afraid that if they don't walk meditation the teacher will upbraid or scold them. This is good in a way, but in the true practice you don't need to be afraid of others, just be wary of faults arising within your own actions, speech or thoughts. When you see faults in your actions, speech or thoughts you must guard yourselves. Attano jodayattanam -- "you must exhort yourself," don't leave it to others to do. We must quickly improve ourselves, know ourselves. This is called "studying," cultivating and relinquishing. Look into this till you see it clearly. Living in this way we rely on endurance, persevering in face of all defilements. Although this is good, it is still on the level of "practicing the Dhamma without having seen it." If we have practiced the Dhamma and seen it, then whatever is wrong we will have already given up, whatever is useful we will have cultivated. Seeing this within ourselves, we experience a sense of well-being. No matter what others say, we know our own mind, we are not moved. We can be at peace anywhere. Now the younger monks and novices who have just begun to practice may think that the senior Ajahn doesn't seem to do much walking or sitting meditation. Don't imitate him in this. You should emulate, but not imitate. To emulate is one thing, to imitate another. The fact is that the senior Ajahn dwells within his own particular contented abiding. Even though he doesn't seem to practice externally, he practices inwardly. Whatever is in his mind cannot be seen by the eye. The practice of Buddhism is the practice of the mind. Even though the practice may not be apparent in his actions or speech, the mind is a different matter. Thus, a teacher who has practiced for a long time, who is proficient in the practice, may seem to let go of his actions and speech, but he guards his mind. He is composed. Seeing only his outer actions you may try to imitate him, letting go and saying whatever you want to say, but it's not the same thing. You're not in the same league. Think about this. There's a real difference, you are acting from different places. Although the Ajahn seems to simply sit around, he is not being careless. He lives with things but it is not confused by them. We can't see this, whatever is in his mind is invisible to us. Don't judge simply by external appearances, the mind is the important thing. When we speak, our minds follow that speech. Whatever actions we do, our minds follow, but one who has practiced already may do or say things which his mind doesn't follow, because it adheres to Dhamma and Vinaya. For example, sometimes the Ajahn may be severe with his disciples, his speech may appear to be rough and careless, his actions may seem coarse. Seeing this, all we can see are his bodily and verbal actions, but the mind which adheres to Dhamma and Vinaya can't be seen. Adhere to the Buddha's instruction: "Don't be heedless." "Heedfulness is the way to the Deathless. Heedfulness is death." Consider this. Whatever others do is not important, just don't be heedless, this is the important thing. All I have been saying here is simply to warn you that now, having completed the exams, you have a chance to travel around and do many things. May you all constantly remember yourselves as practicers of the Dhamma; a practicer must be collected, restrained and circumspect. Consider the teaching which says "Bhikkhu: one who seeks alms." If we define it this way our practice takes on one form...very coarse. If we understand this word the way the Buddha defined it, as one who sees the danger of samsara, [25] this is much more profound. One who sees the danger of samsara is one who sees the faults, the liability of this world. In this world there is so much danger, but most people don't see it, they see the pleasure and happiness of the world. Now the Buddha says that a bhikkhu is one who sees the danger of samsara. What is samsara? The suffering of samsara is overwhelming, it's intolerable. Happiness is also samsara. The Buddha taught us not to cling to them. If we don't see the danger of samsara, then when there is happiness we cling to the happiness and forget suffering. We are ignorant of it, like a child who doesn't know fire. If we understand Dhamma practice in this way..."Bhikkhu: one who sees the danger of samsara"...if we have this understanding, walking, sitting or lying down, wherever we may be, we will feel dispassion. We reflect on ourselves, heedfulness is there. Even sitting at ease, we feel this way. Whatever we do we see this danger, so we are in a very different state. This practice is called being "one who sees the danger of samsara." One who sees the danger of samsara lives within samsara and yet doesn't. That is, he understands concepts and he understands their transcendence. Whatever such a person says is not like ordinary people. Whatever he does is not the same, whatever he thinks is not the same. His behavior is much wiser. Therefore it is said: "Emulate but don't imitate." There are two ways -- emulation and imitation. One who is foolish will grab on to everything. You mustn't do that! Don't forget yourselves. As for me, this year my body is not so well. Some things I will leave to the other monks and novices to help take care of. Perhaps I will take a rest. From time immemorial it's been this way, and in the world it's the same: as long as the father and mother are still alive, the children are well and prosperous. When the parents die, the children separate. Having been rich they become poor. This is usually how it is, even in the lay life, and one can see it here as well. For example, while the Ajahn is still alive everybody is well and prosperous. As soon as he passes away decline begins to set in immediately. Why is this? Because while the teacher is still alive people become complacent and forget themselves. They don't really make an effort with the study and the practice. As in lay life, while the mother and father are still alive, the children just leave everything up to them. They lean on their parents and don't know how to look after themselves. When the parents die they become paupers. In the monkhood it's the same. If the Ajahn goes away or dies, the monks tend to socialize, break up into groups and drift into decline, almost every time. Why is this? It's because they forget themselves. Living off the merits of the teacher everything runs smoothly. When the teacher passes away, the disciples tend to split up. Their views clash. Those who think wrongly live in one place, those who think rightly live in another. Those who feel uncomfortable leave their old associates and set up new places and start new lineages with their own groups of disciples. This is how it goes. In the present it's the same. This is because we are at fault. While the teacher is still alive we are at fault, we live heedlessly. We don't take up the standards of practice taught by the Ajahn and establish them within our own hearts. We don't really follow in his footsteps. Even in the Buddha's time it was the same, remember the scriptures? That old monk, what was his name...? Subhadda Bhikkhu! When Venerable Maha Kassapa was returning from Pava he asked an ascetic on the way, "Is the Lord Buddha faring well?" The ascetic answered: "The Lord Buddha entered Parinibbana seven days ago." Those monks who were still unenlightened were grief-stricken, crying and wailing. Those who had attained the Dhamma reflected to themselves, "Ah, the Buddha has passed away. He has journeyed on." But those who were still thick with defilements, such as Venerable Subhadda, said: "What are you all crying for? The Buddha has passed away. That's good! Now we can live at ease. When the Buddha was still alive he was always bothering us with some rule or other, we couldn't do this or say that. Now the Buddha has passed away, that's fine! We can do whatever we want, say what we want...Why should you cry?" It's been so from way back then till the present day. However that may be, even though it's impossible to preserve entirely...Suppose we had a glass and we took care to preserve it. Each time we used it we cleaned it and put it away in a safe place. Being very careful with that glass we can use it for a long time, and then when we've finished with it others can also use it. Now, using glasses carelessly and breaking them every day, and using one glass for ten years before it breaks -- which is better? Our practice is like this. For instance, if out of all of us living here, practicing steadily, only ten of you practice well, then Wat Ba Pong will prosper. Just as in the villages: in the village of one hundred houses, even if there are only fifty good people that village will prosper. Actually to find even ten would be difficult. Or take a monastery like this one here: it is hard to find even five or six monks who have real commitment, who really do the practice. In any case, we don't have any responsibilyties now, other than to practice well. Think about it, what do we own here? We don't have wealth, possessions, and families any more. Even food we take only once a day. We've given up many things already, even better things than these. As monks and novices we give up everything. We own nothing. All those things people really enjoy have been discarded by us. Going forth as a Buddhist monk is in order to practice. Why then should we hanker for other things, indulging in greed, aversion or delusion? To occupy our hearts with other things is no longer appropriate. Consider: why have we gone forth? Why are we practicing? We have gone forth to practice. If we don't practice then we just lie around. If we don't practice, then we are worse off than lay people, we don't have any function. If we don't perform any function or accept our responsibilities it's a waste of the samana's [26] life. It contradicts the aims of a samana. If this is the case then we are heedless. Being heedless is like being dead. Ask yourself, will you have time to practice when you die? Constantly ask yourself, "When will I die?" If we contemplate in this way our mind will be alert every second, heedfulness will always be present. When there is no heedlessness, sati -- recollection of what is what -- will automatically follow. Wisdom will be clear, seeing all the things clearly as they are. Recollection guards the mind, knowing the arising of sensations at all times, day and night. that is to have sati. To have sati is to be composed. To be composed is to be heedful. If one is heedful then one is practicing rightly. This is our specific responsibility. So today I would like to present this to you all. If in the future you leave here for one of the branch monasteries or anywhere else, don't forget yourselves. The fact is you are still not perfect, still not completed. You still have a lot of work to do, many responsibilities to shoulder. Namely, the practices of cultivation and relinquishment. Be concerned about this, every one of you. Whether you live at this monastery or a branch monastery, preserve the standards of practice. Nowadays there are many of us, many branch temples. All the branch monasteries owe their origination to Wat Ba Pong. We could say that the branch monasteries. So, especially the teachers, monks and novices of Wat Ba Pong should try to set the example, to be the guide for all the other branch monasteries, continuing to be diligent in the practices and responsibilities of a samana. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right Practice -- Steady Practice Wat Wana Potiyahn [27] here is certainly very peaceful, but this is meaningless if our minds are not calm. All places are peaceful. That some may seem distracting is because of our minds. However, a quiet place can help to become calm, by giving one the opportunity to train and thus harmonize with its calm. You should all bear in mind that this practice is difficult. To train other things is not so difficult, it's easy, but the human mind is hard to train. The Lord Buddha trained his mind. The mind is the important thing. Everything within this body-mind system comes together at the mind. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body all receive sensations and send them into the mind, which is the supervisor of all the other sense organs. Therefore it is important to train the mind. If the mind is well trained all problems come to an end. If there are still problems it's because the mind still doubts, it doesn't know in accordance with the truth. That is why there are problems. So recognize that all of you have come fully prepared for practicing Dhamma. Whether standing, walking, sitting or reclining, the tools you need with which to practice are well-provided, wherever you are. They are there, just like the Dhamma. The Dhamma is something which abounds everywhere. Right here, on land or in water...wherever...the Dhamma is always there. The Dhamma is perfect and complete, but it's our practice that's not yet complete. The Lord, Fully Enlightened Buddha taught a means by which all of us may practice and come to know this Dhamma. It isn't a big thing, only a small thing, but it's right. For example, look at hair. If we know even one strand of hair, then we know every strand, both our own and also that of others. We know that they are all simply "hair." By knowing one strand of hair we know it all. Or consider people. If we see the true nature of conditions within ourselves then we know all the other people in the world also, because all people are the same. Dhamma is like this. It's a small thing and yet it's big. That is, to see the truth of one condition is to see the truth of them all. When we know the truth as it is all problems come to an end. Nevertheless, the training is difficult. Why is it difficult? It's difficult because of wanting, tanha. If you don't "want" then you don't practice. But if you practice out of desire you won't see the Dhamma. Think about it, all of you. If you don't want to practice you can't practice. You must first want to practice in order to actually do the practice. Whether stepping forward or stepping back you meet desire. This is why the cultivators of the past have said that this practice is something that's extremely difficult to do. You don't see Dhamma because of desire. Sometimes desire is very strong, you want to see the Dhamma immediately, but the Dhamma is not your mind -- your mind is not yet Dhamma. The Dhamma is one thing and the mind is another. It's not that whatever you like is Dhamma and whatever you don't like isn't. That's not the way it goes. Actually this mind of ours is simply a condition of Nature, like a tree in the forest. If you want a plank or a beam it must come from the tree, but the tree is still only a tree. It's not yet a beam or a plank. Before it can really be of use to us we must take that tree and saw it into beams or planks. It's the same tree but it becomes transformed into something else. Intrinsically it's just a tree, a condition of Nature. But in its raw state it isn't yet of much use to those who need timber. Our mind is like this. It is a condition of Nature. As such it perceives thoughts, it discriminates into beautiful and ugly and so on. This mind of ours must be further trained. We can't just let it be. It's a condition of Nature...train it to realize that it's a condition of Nature. Improve on Nature so that it's appropriate to our needs, which is Dhamma. Dhamma is something which must be practiced and brought within. If you don't practice you won't know. Frankly speaking, you won't know the Dhamma by just reading it or studying it. Or if you do know it your knowledge is still defective. For example, this spittoon here. Everybody knows it's a spittoon but they don't fully know the spittoon. Why don't they fully know it? If I called this spittoon a saucepan, what would you say? Suppose that every time I asked for it I said, "Please bring that saucepan over here," that would confuse you. Why so? Because you don't fully know the spittoon. If you did there would be no problem. You would simply pick up that object and hand it to me, because actually there isn't any spittoon. Do you understand? It's a spittoon due to convention. This convention is accepted all over the country, so it's spittoon. But there isn't any real "spittoon." If somebody wants to call it a saucepan it can be a saucepan. It can be whatever you call it. This is called "concept." If we fully know the spittoon, even if somebody calls it a saucepan there's no problem. Whatever others may call it we are unperturbed because we are not blind to its true nature. This is one who knows Dhamma. Now let's come back to ourselves. Suppose somebody said, "You're crazy!", or, "You're stupid," for example. Even though it may not be true, you wouldn't feel so good. Everything becomes difficult because of our ambitions to have and to achieve. Because of these desires to get and to be, because we don't know according to the truth, we have no contentment. If we know the Dhamma, are enlightened to the Dhamma, greed, aversion and delusion will disappear. When we understand the way things are there is nothing for them to rest on. Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? Because of desires. As soon as we sit down to meditate we want to become peaceful. If we didn't want to find peace we wouldn't sit, we wouldn't practice. As soon as we sit down we want peace to be right there, but wanting the mind to be calm makes for confusion, and we feel restless. This is how it goes. So the Buddha says, "Don't speak out of desire, don't sit out of desire, don't walk out of desire,...Whatever you do, don't do it with desire." Desire means wanting. If you don't want to do something you won't do it. If our practice reaches this point we can get quite discouraged. How can we practice? As soon as we sit down there is desire in the mind. It's because of this that the body and mind are difficult to observe. If they are not the self nor belonging to self then who do they belong to? It's difficult to resolve these things, we must rely on wisdom. The Buddha says we must practice with "letting go," isn't it? If we let go then we just don't practice, right?...Because we've let go. Suppose we went to buy some coconuts in the market, and while we were carrying them back someone asked: "What did you buy those coconuts for?" "I bought them to eat." "Are you going to eat the shells as well?" "No." "I don't believe you. If you're not going to eat the shells then why did you buy them also?" Well what do you say? How are you going to answer their question? We practice with desire. If we didn't have desire we wouldn't practice. Practicing with desire is tanha. Contemplating in this way can give rise to wisdom, you know. For example, those coconuts: Are you going to eat the shells as well? Of course not. Then why do you take them? Because the time hasn't yet come for you to throw them away. They're useful for wrapping up the coconut in. If, after eating the coconut, you throw the shells away, there is no problem. Our practice is like this. The Buddha said, "Don't act on desire, don't speak from desire, don't eat with desire." Standing, walking, sitting or reclining...whatever...don't do it with desire. This means to do it with detachment. It's just like buying the coconuts from the market. We're not going to eat the shells but it's not yet time to throw them away. We keep them first. This is how the practice is. Concept and Transcendence [28] are co-existent, just like a coconut. The flesh, the husk and the shell are all together. When we buy it we buy the whole lot. If somebody wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells that's their business, we know what we're doing. Wisdom is something each of us find for oneself. To see it we must go neither fast nor slow. What should we do? Go to where there is neither fast nor slow. Going fast or going slow are not the way. But we're all impatient, we're in a hurry. As soon as we begin we want to rush to the end, we don't want to be left behind. We want to succeed. When it comes to fixing their minds for meditation some people go too far...They light the incense, prostrate and make a vow, "As long as this incense is not yet completely burnt I will not rise from my sitting, even if I collapse or die, no matter what...I'll die sitting" Having made their vow they start their sitting. As soon as they start to sit Mara's [29] hordes come rushing at them from all sides. They've only sat for an instant and already they think the incense must be finished. They open their eyes for a peek..."Oh, There's still ages left!" They grit their teeth and sit some more, feeling hot, flustered, agitated and confused...Reaching the breaking point they think, "it must be finished by now."...Have another peek..."Oh, no! It's not even half-way yet!" Two or three times and it's still not finished, so they just give up, pack it in and sit there hating themselves. "I'm so stupid, I'm so hopeless!" They sit and hate themselves, feeling like a hopeless case. This just gives rise to frustration and hindrances. This is called the hindrance of ill-will. They can't blame others so they blame themselves. And why is this? It's all because of wanting. Actually it isn't necessary to go through all that. To concentrate means to concentrate with detachment, not to concentrate yourself into knots. But maybe we read the scriptures, about the life of the Buddha, how he sat under the Bodhi tree and determined to himself, "As long as I have still not attained Supreme Enlightenment I will not rise from this place, even if my blood dries up." Reading this in the books you may think of trying it yourself. You'll do it like the Buddha. But you haven't considered that your car is only a small one. The Buddha's car was a really big one, he could take it all in one go. With only your tiny, little car, how can you possibly take it all at once? It's a different story altogether. Why do we think like that? Because we're too extreme. Sometimes we go too low, sometimes we go too high. The point of balance is so hard to find. Now I'm only speaking from experience. In the past my practice was like this. Practicing in order to get beyond wanting...if we don't want, can we practice? I was stuck here. But to practice with wanting is suffering. I didn't know what to do, I was baffled. Then I realized that the practice which is steady is the important thing. One must practice consistently. They call this the practice that is "consistent in all postures." Keep refining the practice, don't let it become a disaster. Practice is one thing, disaster is another.[30] Most people usually create disaster. When they feel lazy they don't bother to practice, they only practice when they feel energetic. This is how I tended to be. All of you ask yourselves now, is this right? To practice when you feel like it, not when you don't: is that in accordance with the Dhamma? Is it straight? Is it in line with the Teaching? This is what makes practice inconsistent. Whether you feel like it or not you should practice just the same: this is how the Buddha taught. Most people wait till they're in the mood before practicing, when they don't feel like it they don't bother. This is as far as they go. This is called "disaster," it's not practice. In the true practice, whether you are happy or depressed you practice; whether it's easy or difficult you practice; whether it's hot or cold you practice. It's straight like this. In the real practice, whether standing, walking, sitting or reclining you must have the intention to continue the practice steadily, making your sati consistent in all postures. At first thought it seems as if you should stand for as long as you walk, walk for as long as you sit, sit for as long as you lie down...I've tried it but I couldn't do it. If a meditator were to make his standing, walking, sitting and lying down all equal, how many days could he keep it up for? Stand for five minutes, sit for five minutes, lie down for five minutes...I couldn't do it for very long. So I sat down and thought about it some more. "What does it all mean? People in this world can't practice like this!" Then I realized..."Oh, that's not right, it can't be right because it's impossible to do. Standing, walking, sitting, reclining...make them all consistent. To make the postures consistent the way they explain it in the books is impossible." But it is possible to do this: The mind...just consider the mind. To have sati, recollection, sampajańńa, self awareness and pańńa, all-round wisdom...this you can do. This is something that's really worth practicing. This means that while standing we have sati, while walking we have sati, while sitting we have sati, and while reclining we have sati, -- consistently. This is possible. We put awareness into our standing, walking, sitting, lying down -- into all postures. When the mind has been trained like this it will constantly recollect Buddho, Buddho, Buddho...which is knowing. Knowing what? Knowing what is right and what is wrong at all times. Yes, this is possible. This is getting down to the real practice. That is, whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down there is continuous sati. Then you should understand those conditions which should be given up and those which should be cultivated. You know happiness, you know unhappiness. When you know happiness and unhappiness your mind will settle at the point which is free of happiness and unhappiness. Happiness is the loose path, kamasukhallikanuyogo. Unhappiness is the tight path, attakilamathanuyogo. [31] If we know these two extremes, we pull it back. We know when the mind is inclining towards happiness or unhappiness and we pull it back, we don't allow it to lean over. We have this sort of awareness, we adhere to the One Path, the single Dhamma. We adhere to the awareness, not allowing the mind to follow its inclinations. But in your practice it doesn't tend to be like that, does it? You follow your inclinations. If you follow your inclinations it's easy, isn't it? But this is the ease which causes suffering, like someone who can't be bothered working. He takes it easy, but when the time comes to eat he hasn't got anything. This is how it goes. So I've contended with many aspects of the Buddha's teaching in the past, but I couldn't really beat him. Nowadays I accept it. I accept that the many teachings of the Buddha are straight down the line, so I've taken those teachings and used them to train both myself and others. The practice which is important is patipada. What is patipada? It is simply all our various activities, standing, walking, sitting, reclining and everything else. This is the patipada of the body. Now the patipada of the mind: how many times in the course of today have you felt low? How many times have you felt high? Have there been any noticeable feelings? We must know ourselves like this. Having seen those feelings can we let go? Whatever we can't yet let go of we must work with. When we see that we can't yet let go of some particular feeling we must take it and examine it with wisdom. Reason it out. Work with it. This is practice. For example when you are feeling zealous, practice, and then when you feel lazy, try to continue the practice. If you can't continue at "full speed" then at least do half as much. Don't just waste the day away by being lazy and not practicing. Doing that will lead to disaster, it's not the way of a cultivator. Now I've heard some people say, "Oh, this year I was really in a bad way." "How come?" "I was sick all year. I couldn't practice at all." Oh! If they don't practice when death is near when will they ever practice? If they're feeling well do you think they'll practice? No, they only get lost in happiness. If they're suffering they still don't practice, they get lost in that. I don't know when people think they're going to practice! They can only see that they're sick, in pain, almost dead from fever...that's right, bring it on heavy, that's where the practice is. When people are feeling happy it just goes to their heads and they get vain and conceited. We must cultivate our practice. What this means is that whether you are happy or unhappy you must practice just the same. If you are feeling well you should practice, and if you are feeling sick you should also practice. Those who think, "This year I couldn't practice at all, I was sick the whole time"...if these people are feeling well, they just walk around singing songs. This is wrong thinking, not right thinking. This is why the cultivators of the past have all maintained the steady training of the heart. If things are to go wrong, just let them be with the body, not in mind. There was a time in my practice, after I had been practicing about five years, when I felt that living with others was a hindrance. I would sit in my kuti and try to meditate and people would keep coming by for a chat and disturbing me. I ran off to live by myself. I thought I couldn't practice with those people bothering me. I was fed up, so I went to live in a small, deserted monastery in the forest, near a small village. I stayed there alone, speaking to no-one -- because there was nobody else to speak to. After I'd been there about fifteen days the thought arose, "Hmm. It would be good to have a novice or pa-kow [32] here with me. He could help me out with some small jobs." I knew it would come up, and sure enough, there it was! "Hey! You're a real character! You say you're fed up with your friends, fed up with your fellow monks and novices, and now you want a novice. What's this?" "No," it says, "I want a good novice." "There! Where are all the good people, can you find any? Where are you going to find a good person? In the whole monastery there were only no-good people. You must have been the only good person, to have run away like this!" ...You have to follow it up like this, follow up the tracks of your thoughts until you see... "Hmm. This is the important one. Where is there a good person to be found? There aren't any good people, you must find goodness anywhere else, you must look within yourself. If you are good in yourself then wherever you go will be good. Whether others criticize or praise you, you are still good. If you aren't good, then when others criticize you, you get angry, and when they praise you, you get pleased. At that time I reflected on this and have found it to be true from that day up until the present. Goodness must be found within. As soon as I saw this, that feeling of wanting to run away disappeared. In later times, whenever I had that desire arise I let it go. Whenever it arose I was aware of it and kept my awareness on that. Thus I had a solid foundation. Wherever I lived, whether people condemned me or whatever they would say, I would reflect that the point is not whether they were good or bad. Good or evil must be seen within ourselves. However other people are, that's their concern. Don't go thinking, "Oh, today is too hot," or, "Today is too cold," or, "Today is...". Whatever the day is like that's just the way it is. Really you are simply blaming the weather for your own laziness. We must see the Dhamma within ourselves, then there is a surer kind of peace. So for all of you who have come to practice here, even though it's only for a few days, still many things will arise. Many things may be arising which you're not even aware of. There is some right thinking, some wrong thinking...many, many things. So I say this practice is difficult. Even though some of you may experience some peace when you sit in meditation, don't be in a hurry to congratulate yourselves. Likewise, if there is some confusion, don't blame yourselves. If things seem to be good, don't delight in them, and if they're not good don't be averse to them. Just look at it all, look at what you have. Just look, don't bother judging. If it's good don't hold fast to it; if it's bad, don't cling to it. Good and bad can both bite, so don't hold fast to them. The practice is simply to sit, sit and watch it all. Good moods and bad moods come and go as is their nature. Don't only praise your mind or only condemn it, know the right time for these things. When it's time for congratulations then congratulate it, but just a little, don't overdo it. Just like teaching a child, sometimes you may have to spank it a little. In our practice sometimes we may have to punish ourselves, but don't punish yourself all the time. If you punish yourself all the time in a while you'll just give yourself a good time and take it easy either. That's not the way to practice. We practice according to the Middle Way. What is the Middle Way? This Middle Way is difficult to follow, you can't rely on your moods and desires. Don't think that only sitting with the eyes closed is practice. If you do think this way then quickly change your thinking! Steady practice is having the attitude of practice while standing, walking, sitting and lying down. When coming out of sitting meditation, reflect that you're simply changing postures. If you reflect in this way you will have peace. Wherever you are you will have this attitude of practice with you constantly, you will have a steady awareness within yourself. Those of you who, having finished their evening sitting, simply indulge in their moods, spending the whole day letting the mind wander where it wants, will find that the next evening when sitting meditation all they get is the "backwash" from the day's aimless thinking. There is no foundation of calm because they have let it go cold all day. If you practice like this your mind gets gradually further and further from the practice. When I ask some of my disciples, "How is your meditation going?". They say, "Oh, it's all gone now." You see? They can keep it up for a month or two but in a year or two it's all finished. Why is this? It's because they don't take this essential point into their practice. When they've finished sitting they let go of their samadhi. They start to sit for shorter and shorter periods, till they reach the point where as soon as they start to sit they want to finish. Eventually they don't even sit. It's the same with bowing to the Buddha-image. At first they make the effort to prostrate every night before going to sleep, but after a while their minds begin to stray. Soon they don't bother to prostrate at all, they just nod, till eventually it's all gone. They throw out the practice completely. Therefore, understand the importance of sati, practice constantly. Right practice is steady practice. Whether standing, walking, sitting or reclining the practice must continue. This means that practice, meditation, is done in the mind, not in the body. If our mind has zeal, is conscientious and ardent, then there will be awareness. The mind is the important thing. The mind is that which supervises everything we do. When we understand properly then we practice properly. When we practice properly we don't go astray. Even if we only do a little that is still all right. For example, when you finish sitting in meditation, remind yourselves that you are not actually finishing meditation, you are simply changing postures. Your mind is still composed. Whether standing, walking, sitting or reclining you have sati with you. If you have this kind of awareness you can maintain your internal practice. In the evening when you sit again the practice continues uninterrupted. Your effort is unbroken, allowing the mind to attain calm. This is called steady practice. Whether we are talking or doing other things we should try to make the practice continuous. If our mind has recollection and self-awareness continuously, our practice will naturally develop, it will gradually come together. The mind will find peace, because it will know what is right and what is wrong. It will see what is happening within us and realize peace. If we are to develop sila (moral restraint), or samadhi (firmness of mind) we must first have pańńa (wisdom). Some people think that they'll develop moral restraint one year, samadhi the next year and the year after that they'll develop wisdom. They think these three things are separate. They think that this year they will develop, but if the mind is not firm (samadhi), how can they do it? If there is no understanding, (pańńa) how can they do it? Without samadhi or pańńa, sila will be sloppy. In fact these three come together at the same point. When we have sila we have samadhi, when we have samadhi we have pańńa. They are all one, like a mango. Whether it's small or fully grown, it's still a mango. When it's ripe it's still the same mango. If we think in simple terms like this we can see it more easily. We don't have to learn a lot of things, just to know these things, to know our practice. When it comes to meditation some people don't get what they want, so they just give up, saying they don't yet have the merit to practice meditation. They can do bad things, they have that sort of talent, but they don't have the talent to do good. They throw it in, saying they don't have a good enough foundation. This is the way people are, they side with their defilements. Now that you have this chance to practice, please understand that whether you find it difficult or easy to develop samadhi is entirely up to you, not the samadhi. If it is difficult, it is because you are practicing wrongly. In our practice we must have "Right View" (sammaditthi). If our view is right then everything else is right: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Recollection, Right Concentration -- the Eightfold Path. When there is Right View all the other factors will follow on. Whatever happens, don't let your mind stray off the track. Look within yourself and you will see clearly. For the best practice, as I see it, it isn't necessary to read many books. Take all the books and lock them away. Just read your own mind. You have all been burying yourselves in books from the time you entered school. I think that now you have this opportunity and have the time, take the books, put them in a cupboard and lock the door. Just read your mind. Whenever something arises within the mind, whether you like it or not, whether it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this is not a sure thing." Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not sure." With just this single ax you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." For the duration of this next month that you will be staying in this forest monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You will see the truth. This "not sure" is really an important one. This one develops wisdom. The more you look the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've cut something off with "not sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. Yes, it's truly "not sure." Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it all..."not sure." You stick the sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its turn comes, it crops up again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will see this same old one who's been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year out, from the day you were born. There's only this one who's been fooling you all along. See this and realize the way things are. When your practice reaches this point you won't cling to sensations, because they are all uncertain. Have you ever noticed? Maybe you see a clock and think, "Oh, this is nice." Buy it and see...in not many days you're bored with it already. "This pen is really beautiful," so you take the trouble to buy one. In not many months you tire of it again. This is how it is. Where is there any certainty? If we see all these things as uncertain then their value fades away. All things become insignificant. Why should we hold on to things that have no value? We keep them only as we might keep an old rag to wipe our feet with. We see all sensations as equal in value because they all have the same nature. When we understand sensations we understand the world. The world is sensations and sensations are the world. If we aren't fooled by sensations we aren't fooled by the world. If we aren't fooled by the world we aren't fooled by sensations. The mind which sees this will have a firm foundation of wisdom. Such a mind will not have many problems. Any problems it does have it can solve. When there are no more problems there are no more doubts. Peace arises in their stead. This is called "Practice." If we really practice it must be like this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Samma Samadhi -- Detachment Within Activity Take a look at the example of the Buddha. Both in his own practice and in his methods for teaching the disciples he was exemplary. The Buddha taught the standards of practice as skillful means for getting rid of conceit, he couldn't do the practice for us. having heard that teaching we must further teach ourselves, practice for ourselves. The results will arise here, not at the teaching. The Buddha's teaching can only enable us to get an initial understanding of the Dhamma, but the Dhamma is not yet within our hearts. Why not? Because we haven't yet practiced, we haven't yet taught ourselves. The Dhamma arises at the practice. If you know it, you know it through the practice. If you doubt it, you doubt it at the practice. Teachings from the Masters may be true, but simply listening to Dhamma is not yet enough to enable us to realize it. The teaching simply points out the way to realize. To realize the Dhamma we must take that teaching and bring it into our hearts. That part which is for the body we apply to the body, that part which is for the speech we apply to the speech, and that part which is for the mind we apply to the mind. This means that after hearing the teaching we must further teach ourselves to know that Dhamma, to be that Dhamma. The Buddha said that those who simply believe others are not truly wise. A wise person practices until he is one with the Dhamma, until he can have confidence in himself, independent of others. On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this teaching?" Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha praised him for it. "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing." Conviction in a belief can take various forms. One form reasons according to Dhamma, while another form is contrary to the Dhamma. This second way is heedless, it is a foolhardy understanding, micchaditthi, wrong view. One doesn't listen to anybody else. Take the example of Dighanakha the Brahmin. This Brahmin only believed himself, he wouldn't believe others. At one time when the Buddha was resting at Rajagaha, Dighanakha went to listen to his teaching. Or you might say that Dighanakha went to teach the Buddha because he was intent on expounding his own views... "I am of the view that nothing suits me." This was his view. The Buddha listened to Dighanakha's view and then answered, "Brahmin, this view of yours doesn't suit you either." When the Buddha had answered in this way, Dighanakha was stumped. He didn't know what to say. The Buddha explained in many ways, till the Brahmin understood. He stopped to reflect and saw... "Hmm, this view of mine isn't right." On hearing the Buddha's answer the Brahmin abandoned his conceited views and immediately saw the truth. He changed right then and there, turning right around, just as one would invert one's hand. He praised the teaching of the Buddha thus: "Listening to the Blessed One's teaching, my mind was illumined, just as one living in darkness might perceive light. My mind is like an overturned basin which has been uprighted, like a man who has been lost and finds the way." Now at that time a certain knowledge arose within his mind, within that mind which had been uprighted. Wrong view vanished and right view took its place. Darkness disappeared and light arose. The Buddha declared that the Brahmin Dighanakha was one who had opened the Dhamma Eye. Previously Dighanakha clung to his own views and had no intention of changing them. But when he heard the Buddha's teaching his mind saw the truth, he saw that his clinging to those views was wrong. When the right understanding arose he was able to perceive his previous understanding as mistaken, so he compared his experience with a person living in darkness who had found light. This is how it is. At that time the Brahmin Dighanakha transcended his wrong view. Now we must change in this way. Before we can give up defilements we must change our perspective. We must begin to practice rightly and practice well. Previously we didn't practice rightly or well, and yet we thought we were right and good just the same. When we really look into the matter we upright ourselves, just like turning over one's hand. This means that the "One Who Knows," or wisdom, arises in the mind, so that it is able to see things anew. A new kind of awareness arises. Therefore cultivators must practice to develop this knowing, which we call Buddho, the One Who Knows, in their minds. Originally the one who knows is not there, our knowledge is not clear, true or complete. This knowledge is therefore too weak to train the mind. But then the mind changes, or inverts, as a result of this awareness, called wisdom or insight, which exceeds our previous awareness. That previous "one who knows" did not yet know fully and so was unable to bring us to our objective. The Buddha therefore taught to look within, opanayiko. Look within, don't look outwards. Or if you look outwards then look within, to see the cause and effect therein. Look for the truth in all things, because external objects and internal objects are always affecting each other. Our practice is to develop a certain type of awareness until it becomes stronger than our previous awareness. This causes wisdom and insight to arise within the mind, enabling us to clearly know the workings of the mind, the language of the mind and the ways and means of all the defilements. The Buddha, when he first left his home in search of liberation, was probably not really sure what to do, much like us. He tried many ways to develop his wisdom. He looked for teachers, such as Udaka Ramaputta, going there to practice meditation...right leg on left leg, right hand on left hand...body erect...eyes closed...letting go of everything...until he was able to attain a high level of absorption samadhi. [33] But when he came out of that samadhi his old thinking came up and he would attach to it just as before. Seeing this, he knew that wisdom had not yet arisen. His understanding had not yet penetrated to the truth, it was still incomplete, still lacking. Seeing this he nonetheless gained some understanding -- that this was not yet the summation of practice -- but he left that place to look for a new teacher. When the Buddha left his old teacher he didn't condemn him, he did as does the bee which takes nectar from the flower without damaging the petals. The Buddha then proceeded on to study with Alara Kalama and attained an even higher state of samadhi, but when he came out of that state Bimba and Rahula [34] came back into his thoughts again, the old memories and feelings came up again. He still had lust and desire. Reflecting inward he saw that he still hadn't reached his goal, so he left that teacher also. He listened to his teachers and did his best to follow their teachings. He continually surveyed the results of his practice, he didn't simply do things and then discard them for something else. Even when it came to ascetic practices, after he had tried them he realized that starving until one is almost skeleton is simply a matter for the body. The body doesn't know anything. practicing in that way was like executing an innocent person while ignoring the real thief. When the Buddha really looked into the matter he saw that practice is not a concern of the body, it is a concern of the mind. Attakilamathanuyogo (self-mortification) -- the Buddha had tried it and found that it was limited to the body. In fact, all Buddhas are enlightened in mind. Whether in regard to the body or to the mind, just throw them all together as Transient, Imperfect and Ownerless -- aniccam, dukkham and anatta. They are simply conditions of Nature. They arise depending on supporting factors, exist for a while and then cease. When there are appropriate conditions they arise again; having arisen they exist for a while, then cease once more. These things are not a "self," a "being," an "us" or a "them." There's nobody there, simply feelings. Happiness has no intrinsic self, suffering has no intrinsic self. No self can be found, there are simply elements of Nature which arise, exist and cease. They go through this constant cycle of change. All beings, including humans, tend to see the arising as themselves, the existence as themselves, and the cessation as themselves. Thus they cling to everything. They don't want things to be the way they are, they don't want them to be otherwise. For instance, having arisen they don't want things to cease; having experienced happiness, they don't want suffering. If suffering does arise they want it to go away as quickly as possible, but even better if it doesn't arise at all. This is because they see this body and mind as themselves, or belonging to themselves, and so they demand those things to follow their wishes. This sort of thinking is like building a dam or a dike without making an outlet to let the water through. The result is that the dam bursts. And so it is with this kind of thinking. The Buddha saw that thinking in this way is the cause of suffering. Seeing this cause, the Buddha gave it up. This is the Noble Truth of the Cause of Suffering. The Truths of Suffering, its Cause, its Cessation and the Way leading to that Cessation...people are stuck right here. If people are to overcome their doubts it's right at this point. Seeing that these things are simply rupa and nama, or corporeality and mentality, it becomes obvious that they are not a being, a person, an "us," or a "them." They simply follow the laws of Nature. Our practice is to know things in this way. We don't have the power to really control these things, we aren't really their owners. Trying to control them causes suffering, because they aren't really ours to control. Neither body nor mind are self or others. If we know this as it really is then we see clearly. We see the truth, we are at one with it. It's like seeing a lump of red hot iron which has been heated in a furnace. It's hot all over. Whether we touch it on top, the bottom or the sides it's hot. No matter where we touch it, it's hot. This is how you should see things. Mostly when we start to practice we want to attain, to achieve, to know and to see, but we don't yet know what it is we're going to achieve or know. There was once a disciple of mine whose practice was plagued with confusion and doubts. But he kept practicing, and I kept instructing him, till he began to find some peace. But when he eventually became a bit calm he got caught up in his doubts again, saying, "What do I do next?" There! the confusion arises again. He says he wants peace but when he gets it, he doesn't want it, he asks what he should do next! So in this practice we must do everything with detachment. How are we to detach? We detach by seeing things clearly. Know the characteristics of the body and mind as they are. We meditate in order to find peace, but in doing so we see that which is not peaceful. This is because movement is the nature of the mind. When practicing samadhi we fix our attention on the in and out-breaths at the nose tip or the upper lip. This "lifting" the mind to fix it is called vitakka, or "lifting up." When we have thus "lifted" the mind and are fixed on an object, this is called vicara, the contemplation of the breath at the nose tip. This quality of vicara will naturally mingle with other mental sensations, and we may think that our mind is not still, that it won't calm down, but actually this is simply the workings of vicara as it mingles with those sensations. Now if this goes too far in the wrong direction, our mind will lose its collectedness, so then we must set up the mind afresh, lifting it up to the object of concentration with vitakka. As soon as we have thus established our attention vicara takes over, mingling with the various mental sensations. Now when we see this happening, our lack of understanding may lead us to wonder: "Why has my mind wandered? I wanted it to be still, why isn't it still?" This is practicing with attachment. Actually the mind is simply following its nature, but we go and add on to that activity by wanting the mind to be still and thinking "Why isn't it still?" Aversion arises and so we add that on to everything else, increasing our doubts, increasing our suffering and increasing our confusion. So if there is vicara, reflecting on the various happenings within the mind in this way, we should wisely consider..."Ah, the mind is simply like this." There, that's the One Who Knows talking, telling you to see things as they are. The mind is simply like this. We let it go at that and the mind becomes peaceful. When it's no longer centered we bring up vitakka once more, and shortly there is clam again. Vitakka and vicara work together like this. We use vicara to contemplate the various sensations which arise. When vicara becomes gradually more scattered we once again "lift" our attention with vitakka. The important thing here is that our practice at this point must be done with detachment. Seeing the process of vicara interacting with the mental sensations we may think that the mind is confused and become averse to this process. This is the cause right here. We aren't happy simply because we want the mind to be still. This is the cause -- wrong view. If we correct our view just a little, seeing this activity as simply the nature of mind, just this is enough to subdue the confusion. This is called letting go. Now, if we don't attach, if we practice with "letting go"...detachment within activity and activity within detachment...if we learn to practice like this, then vicara will naturally tend to have less to work with. If our mind ceases to be disturbed, then vicara will incline to contemplating Dhamma, because if we don't contemplate Dhamma the mind returns to distraction. So there is vitakka then vicara, vitakka then vicara, vitakka then vicara and so on, until vicara becomes gradually more subtle. At first vicara goes all over the place. When we understand this as simply the natural activity of the mind, it won't bother us unless we attach to it. It's like flowing water. If we get obsessed with it, asking "Why does it flow?" then naturally we suffer. If we understand that the water simply flows because that's its nature then there's no suffering. Vicara is like this. There is vitakka, then vicara, interacting with mental sensations. We can take these sensations as our object of meditation, calming the mind by noting those sensations. If we know the nature of the mind like this then we let go, just like letting the water flow by. Vicara becomes more and more subtle. Perhaps the mind inclines to contemplating the body, or death for instance, or some other theme of Dhamma. When the theme of contemplation is right there will arise a feeling of well-being. What is that well-being? It is piti (rapture). Piti, well-being, arises. It may manifest as goose-pimples, coolness or lightness. The mind is enrapt. This is called piti. There are also pleasures, sukha, the coming and going of various sensations; and the state of ekaggatarammana, or one-pointedness. Now if we talk in terms of the first stage of concentration it must be like this: vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata. So what is the second stage like? As the mind becomes progressively more subtle, vitakka and vicara become comparatively coarser, so that they are discarded, leaving only piti, sukha, and ekaggata. This is something that the mind does of itself, we don't have to conjecture about it, just to know things as they are. As the mind becomes more refined, piti is eventually thrown off, leaving only sukha and ekaggata, and so we take note of that. Where does piti go to? It doesn't go anywhere, it's just that the mind becomes increasingly more subtle so that it throws off those qualities that are too coarse for it. Whatever's too coarse it throws out, and it keeps throwing off like this until it reaches the peak of subtlety, known in the books as the Fourth Jhana, the highest level of absorption. Here the mind has progressively discarded whatever becomes too coarse for it, until there remain only ekaggata and upekkha, equanimity. There's nothing further, this is the limit. When the mind is developing the stages of samadhi it must proceed in this way, but please let us understand the basics of practice. We want to make the mind still but it won't be still. This is practicing out of desire, but we don't realize it. We have the desire for calm. The mind is already disturbed and then we further disturb things by wanting to make it calm. This very wanting is the cause. We don't see that this wanting to calm the mind is tanha (craving). It's just like increasing the burden. The more we desire calm the more disturbed the mind becomes, until we just give up. We end up fighting all the time, sitting and struggling with ourselves. Why is this? Because we don't reflect back on how we have set up the mind. Know that the conditions of mind are simply the way they are. Whatever arises, just observe it. It is simply the nature of the mind, it isn't harmful unless we don't understand its nature. It's not dangerous if we see its activity for what it is. So we practice with vitakka and vicara until the mind begins to settle down and become less forceful. When sensations arise we contemplate them, we mingle with them and come to know them. However, usually we tend to start fighting with them, because right from the beginning we're determined to calm the mind. As soon as we sit the thoughts come to bother us. As soon as we set up our meditation object our attention wanders, the mind wanders off after all the thoughts, thinking that those thoughts have come to disturb us, but actually the problem arises right here, from the very wanting. If we see that the mind is simply behaving according to its nature, that it naturally comes and goes like this, and if we don't get over-interested in it, we can understand its ways as much the same as a child. Children don't know any better, they may say all kinds of things. If we understand them we just let them talk, children naturally talk like that. When we let go like this there is no obsession with the child. We can talk to our guests undisturbed, while the child chatters and plays around. The mind is like this. It's not harmful unless we grab on to it and get obsessed over it. That's the real cause of trouble. When piti arises one feels an indescribable pleasure, which only those who experience can appreciate. Sukha (pleasure) arises, and there is also the quality of one-pointedness. There are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata. These five qualities all converge at the one place. Even though they are different qualities they are all collected in the one place, and we can see them all there, just like seeing many different kinds of fruit in the one bowl. Vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata -- we can see them all in the one mind, all five qualities. If one were to ask, "How is there vitakka, how is there vicara, how are there piti and sukha?..." it would be difficult to answer, but when they converge in the mind we will see how it is for ourselves. At this point our practice becomes somewhat special. We must have recollection and self-awareness and not lose ourselves. Know things for what they are. These are stages of meditation, the potential of the mind. Don't doubt anything with regard to the practice. Even if you sink into the earth or fly into the air, or even "die" while sitting, don't doubt it. Whatever the qualities of the mind are, just stay with the knowing. This is our foundation: to have sati, recollection, and sampajańńa, self-awareness, whether standing, walking, sitting, or reclining. Whatever arises, just leave it be, don't cling to it. Be it like or dislike, happiness or suffering, doubt or certainty, contemplate with vicara and gauge the results of those qualities. Don't try to label everything, just know it. See that all the things that arise in the mind are simply sensations. They are transient. They arise, exist and cease. That's all there is to them, they have no self or being, they are neither "us" nor "them." They are not worthy of clinging to, any of them. When we see all rupa and nama [35] in this way with wisdom, then we will see the old tracks. We will see the transience of the mind, the transience of the body, the transience of happiness, suffering, love and hate. They are all impermanent. Seeing this, the mind becomes weary; weary of the body and mind, weary of the things that arise and cease and are transient. When the mind becomes disenchanted it will look for a way out of all those things. It no longer wants to be stuck in things, it sees the inadequacy of this world and the inadequacy of birth. When the mind sees like this, wherever we go, we see aniccam (Transience), dukkham (Imperfection) and anatta (Ownerlessness). There's nothing left to hold on to. Whether we go to sit at the foot of a tree, on a mountain top or into a valley, we can hear the Buddha's teaching. All trees will seem as one, all beings will be as one, there's nothing special about any of them. They arise, exist for a while, age and then die, all of them. We thus see the world more clearly, seeing this body and mind more clearly. They are clearer in the light of Transience, clearer in the light of Imperfection and clearer in the light of Ownerlessness. If people hold fast to things they suffer. This is how suffering arises. If we see that body and mind are simply the way they are, no suffering arises, because we don't hold fast to them. Wherever we go we will have wisdom. Even seeing a tree we can consider it with wisdom. Seeing grass and the various insects will be food for reflection. When it all comes down to it they all fall into the same boat. They are all Dhamma, they are invariably transient. This is the truth, this is the true Dhamma, this is certain. How is it certain? it is certain in that the world is that way and can never be otherwise. There's nothing more to it than this. If we can see in this way then we have finished our journey. In Buddhism, with regard to view, it is said that to feel that we are more foolish than others is not right: to feel that we are equal to others is not right; and to feel that we better than others is not right...because there isn't any "we." This is how it is, we must uproot conceit. This is called lokavidu -- knowing the world clearly as it is. If we thus see the truth, the mind will know itself completely and will sever the cause of suffering. When there is no longer any cause, the results cannot arise. This is the way our practice should proceed. The basics which we need to develop are: firstly, to be upright and honest; secondly, to be wary of wrong-doing; thirdly, to have the attribute of humility within one's heart, to be aloof and content with little. If we are content with little in regards to speech and in all other things, we will see ourselves, we won't be drawn into distractions. The mind will have a foundation of sila, samadhi, and pańńa. Therefore cultivators of the path should not be careless. Even if you are right don't be careless. And if you are wrong, don't be careless. If things are going well or you're feeling happy, don't be careless. Why do I say "don't be careless"? Because all of these things are uncertain. Note them as such. If you get peaceful just leave the peace be. You may really want to indulge in it but you should simply know the truth of it, the same as for unpleasant qualities. This practice of the mind is up to each individual. The teacher only explains the way to train the mind, because that mind is within each individual. We know what's in there, nobody else can know our mind as well as we can. The practice requires this kind of honesty. Do it properly, don't do it half-heartedly. When I say "do it properly," does that mean you have to exhaust yourselves? No, you don't have to exhaust yourselves, because the practice is done in the mind. If you know this then you will know the practice. You don't need a whole lot. Just use the standards of practice to reflect on yourself inwardly. Now the Rains Retreat is half way over. For most people it's normal to let the practice slacken off after a while. They aren't consistent from beginning to end. This shows that their practice is not yet mature. For instance, having determined a particular practice at the beginning of the retreat, whatever it may be, then we must fulfill that resolution. For these three months make the practice consistent. You must all try. Whatever you have determined to practice, consider that and reflect whether the practice has slackened off. If so, make an effort to re-establish it. Keep shaping up the practice, just the same as when we practice meditation on the breath. As the breath goes in and out the mind gets distracted. Then re-establish your attention on the breath. When your attention wanders off again bring it back once more. This is the same. In regard to both the body and the mind the practice proceeds like this. Please make an effort with it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Flood of Sensuality Kamogha...the flood of sensuality: sunk in sights, in sounds, in smells, in tastes, in bodily sensations. Sunk because we only look at externals, we don't look inwardly. People don't look at themselves, they only look at others. They can see everybody else but they can't see themselves. It's not such a difficult thing to do, but it's just that people don't really try. For example, look at a beautiful woman. What does that do to you? As soon as you see the face you see everything else. Do you see it? Just look within your mind. What is it like to see a woman? As soon as the eyes see just a little bit the mind sees all the rest. Why is it so fast? It's because you are sunk in the "water." You are sunk, you think about it, fantasize about it, are stuck in it. It's just like being a slave...somebody else has control over you. When they tell you to sit you've got to sit, when they tell you to walk you've got to walk...you can't disobey them because you're their slave. Being enslaved by the senses is the same. No matter how hard you try you can't seem to shake it off. And if you expect others to do it for you, you really get into trouble. You must shake it off for yourself. Therefore the Buddha left the practice of Dhamma, the transcendence of suffering, up to us. Take nibbana [36] for example. The Buddha was thoroughly enlightened, so why didn't he describe nibbana in detail? Why did he only say that we should practice and find out for ourselves. Why is that? Shouldn't he have explained what nibbana is like? "The Buddha practiced, developing the perfections over countless world ages for the sake of all sentient beings, so why didn't he point out nibbana so that they all could see it and go there too?" Some people think like this. "If the Buddha really knew he would tell us. Why should he keep anything hidden?" Actually this sort of thinking is wrong. We can't see the truth in that way. We must practice, we must cultivate, in order to see. The Buddha only pointed out the way to develop wisdom, that's all. He said that we ourselves must practice. Whoever practices will reach the goal. But that path which the Buddha taught goes against our habits. To be frugal, to be restrained...we don't really like these things, so we say, "Show us the way, show us the way to nibbana, so that those who like it easy like us can go there too." It's the same with wisdom. The Buddha can't show you wisdom, it's not something that can be simply handed around. The Buddha can show the way to develop wisdom, but whether you develop much or only a little depends on the individual. Merit and accumulated virtues of people naturally differ. Just look at a material object, such as the wooden lions in front of the hall here. People come and look at them and can't seem to agree: one person says, "Oh, how beautiful," while another says, "How revolting!" It's the one lion, both beautiful and ugly. Just this is enough to know how things are. Therefore the realization of Dhamma is sometimes slow, sometimes fast. The Buddha and his disciples were all alike in that they had to practice for themselves, but even so they still relied on teachers to advise them and give them techniques in the practice. Now, when we listen to Dhamma we may want to listen until all our doubts are cleared up, but they'll never be cleared up simply by listening. Doubt is not overcome simply by listening or thinking, we must first clean out the mind. To clean out the mind means to revise our practice. No matter how long we were to listen to the teacher talk about the truth we couldn't know or see that truth just from listening. If we did it would be only through guesswork or conjecture. However, even though simply listening to the Dhamma may not lead to realization, it is beneficial. There were, in the Buddha's time, those who realized the Dhamma, even realizing the highest realization -- arahantship, while listening to a discourse. But those people were already highly developed, their minds already understood to some extent. It's like a football. When a football is pumped up with air it expands. Now the air in that football is all pushing to get out, but there's no hole for it to do so. As soon as a needle punctures the football the air comes bursting out. This is the same. The minds of those disciples who were enlightened while listening to the Dhamma were like this. As long as there was no catalyst to cause the reaction this "pressure" was within them, like the football. The mind was not yet free because of this very small thing concealing the truth. As soon as they heard the Dhamma and it hit the right spot, wisdom arose. They immediately understood, immediately let go and realized the true Dhamma. That's how it was. It was easy. The mind uprighted itself. It changed, or turned, from one view to another. You could say it was far, or you could say it was very near. This is something we must do for ourselves. The Buddha was only able to give techniques on how to develop wisdom, and so with the teachers these days. They give Dhamma talks, they talk about the truth, but still we can't make that truth our own. Why not? There's a "film" obscuring it. You could say that we are sunk, sunk in the water. Kamogha -- the "flood" of sensuality. Bhavogha -- the "flood" of becoming. "Becoming" (bhava) means "the sphere of birth." Sensual desire is born at sights, sounds, tastes, smells, feelings and thoughts, identifying with these things. The mind holds fast and is stuck to sensuality. Some cultivators get bored, fed up, tired of the practice and lazy. You don't have to look very far, just look at how people can't seem to keep the Dhamma in mind, and yet if they get scolded they'll hold on to it for ages. They may get scolded at the beginning of the Rains, and even after the Rains Retreat has ended they still haven't forgotten it. Their whole lives they still won't forget it if it goes down deep enough. But when it comes to the Buddha's teaching, telling us to be moderate, to be restrained, to practice conscientiously...why don't people take these things to their hearts? Why do they keep forgetting these things? You don't have to look very far, just look at our practice here. For example, establishing standards such as: after the meal while washing your bowls, don't chatter! Even this much seems to be beyond people. Even though we know that chattering is not particularly useful and binds us to sensuality...people still like talking. Pretty soon they start to disagree and eventually get into arguments and squabbles. There's nothing more to it than this. Now this isn't anything subtle or refined, it's pretty basic, and yet people don't seem to really make much effort with it. They say they want to see the Dhamma, but they want to see it on their own terms, they don't want to follow the path of practice. That's as far as they go. All these standards of practice are skillful means for penetrating to and seeing the Dhamma, but people don't practice accordingly. To say "real practice" or "ardent practice" doesn't necessarily mean you have to expend a whole lot of energy -- just put some effort into the mind, making some effort with all the feelings that arise, especially those which are steeped in sensuality. These are our enemies. But people can't seem to do it. Every year, as the end of the Rains Retreat approaches, it gets worse and worse. Some of the monks have reached the limit of their endurance, the "end of their tether." The closer we get to the end of the Rains the worse they get, they have no consistency in their practice. I speak about this every year and yet people can't seem to remember it. We establish a certain standard and in not even a year it's fallen apart. Almost finished the Retreat and it starts -- the chatter, the socializing and everything else. It all goes to pieces. This is how it tends to be. Those who are really interested in the practice should consider why this is so. It's because people don't see the adverse results of these things. When we are accepted into the Buddhist monkhood we live simply. And yet some of them disrobe to go to the front, where the bullets fly past them every day -- they prefer it like that. They really want to go. Danger surrounds them on all sides and yet they're prepared to go. Why don't they see the danger? They're prepared to die by the gun but nobody wants to die developing virtue. Just seeing this is enough...it's because they're slaves, nothing else. See this much and you know what it's all about. People don't see the danger. This is really amazing, isn't it? You'd think they could see it but they can't. If they can't see it even then, then there's no way they can get out. They're determined to whirl around in samsara. This is how things are. Just talking about simple things like this we can begin to understand. If you were to ask them, "Why were you born?" They'd probably have a lot of trouble answering, because they can't see it. They're sunk in the world of the senses and sunk in becoming (bhava). [37] Bhava is the sphere of birth, our birthplace. To put it simply, where are beings born from? Bhava is the preliminary condition for birth. Wherever birth takes place, that's bhava. For example, suppose we had an orchard of apple trees that we were particularly fond of. That's a bhava for us if we don't reflect with wisdom. How so? Suppose our orchard contained a hundred or a thousand apple trees...it doesn't really matter what kind of trees they are, just so long as we consider them to be "our own" trees...then we are going to be "born" as a "worm" in every single one of those trees. We bore into every one, even though our human body is still back there in the house, we send out "tentacles" into every one of those trees. Now, how do we know that it's a bhava? It's a bhava (sphere of existence) because of our clinging to the idea that those trees are our own, that that orchard is our own. If someone were to take an ax and cut one of the trees down, the owner over there in the house "dies" along with the tree. He gets furious, and has to go and set things right, to fight and maybe even kill over it. That quarreling is the "birth." The "sphere of birth" is the orchard of trees that we cling to as our own. We are "born" right at the point where we consider them to be our own, born from that bhava. Even if we had a thousand apple trees, if someone were to cut down just one it'd be like cutting the owner down. Whatever we cling to we are born right there, we exist right there. We are born as soon as we "know." This is knowing through not-knowing: we know that someone has cut down one of our trees. But we don't know that those trees are not really ours. This is called "knowing through not-knowing." We are bound to be born into that bhava. Vatta the wheel of conditioned existence, operates like this. People cling to bhava, they depend on bhava. If they cherish bhava, this is birth . And if they fall into suffering over that same thing, this is also a birth. As long as we can't let go we are stuck in the rut of samsara, spinning around like a wheel. Look into this, contemplate it. Whatever we cling to as being us or ours, that is a place for birth. There must be a bhava, a sphere of birth, before birth can take place. Therefore the Buddha said, whatever you have, don't "have" it. Let it be there but don't make it yours. You must understand this "having" and "not having," know the truth of them, don't flounder in suffering. The place that we were born from; you want to go back there and be born again, don't you? All of you monks and novices, do you know where you were born from? You want to go back there, don't you? Right there, look into this. All of you getting ready. The nearer we get to the end of the retreat the more you start preparing to go back and be born there. Really, you'd think that people could appreciate what it would be like, living in a person's belly. How uncomfortable would that be? Just look, merely staying in your kuti for one day is enough. Shut all the doors and windows and you're suffocating already. How would it be to lie in a person's belly for nine or ten months? Think about it. People don't see the liability of things. Ask them why they are living, or why they are born, and they have no idea. Do you still want to get back in there? Why? It should be obvious but you don't see it. Why can't you see it? What are you stuck on, what are you holding onto? Think it out for yourself. It's because there is a cause for becoming and birth. Just take a look at the preserved baby in the main hall, have you seen it? Isn't anybody alarmed by it? No, no-one's alarmed by it. A baby lying in its mother's belly is just like that preserved baby. And yet you want to make more of those things, and even want to get back and soak in there yourself. Why don't you see the danger of it and the benefit of the practice? You see? That's bhava. The root is right there, it revolves around that. The Buddha taught to contemplate this point. People think about it but still don't see. They're all getting ready to go back there again. they know that it wouldn't be very comfortable in there, to put their necks in the noose is really uncomfortable, they still want to lay their heads in there. Why don't they understand this? This is where wisdom comes in, where we must contemplate. When I talk like this people say, "If that's the case then everybody would have to become monks...and then how would the world be able to function?" You'll never get everybody to become monks, so don't worry. The world is here because of deluded beings, so this is no trifling matter. I first became a novice at the age of nine. I started practicing from way back then. But in those days I didn't really know what it was all about. I found out when I became a monk. Once I became a monk I became so wary. The sensual pleasures people indulged in didn't seem like so much fun to me. I saw the suffering in them. It was like seeing a delicious banana which I knew was very sweet but which I also knew to be poisoned. No matter how sweet or tempting it was, if I ate it I would die. I considered in this way every time...every time I wanted to "eat a banana" I would see the "poison" steeped inside, and so eventually I could withdraw my interest from those things. Now at this age, such things are not at all tempting. Some people don't see the "poison'; some see it but still want to try their luck. "If your hand is wounded don't touch poison, it may seep into the wound." I used to consider trying it out as well. When I had lived as a monk for five or six years, I thought of the Buddha. He practiced for five or six years and was finished, but I was still interested in the worldly life, so I thought of going back to it: "Maybe I should go and "build the world" for a while, I would gain some experience and learning. Even the Buddha had his son, Rahula. Maybe I'm being too strict?..." I sat and considered this for some time, until I realized: "Yes, well, that's all very fine, but I'm just afraid that this 'Buddha' won't be like the last one," a voice in me said, "I'm afraid this 'Buddha' will just sink into the mud, not like the last one." And so I resisted those worldly thoughts. From my sixth or seventh rains retreat up until the twentieth, I really had to put up a fight. These days I seem to have run out of bullets, I've been shooting for a long time. I'm just afraid that you younger monks and novices have still got so much ammunition, you may just want to go and try out your guns. Before you do, consider carefully first. Speaking of sensual desire, it's hard to give up. It's really difficult to see it as it is. We must use skillful means. Consider sensual pleasures as like eating meat which gets stuck in your teeth. Before you finish the meal you have to find a toothpick to pry it out. When the meat comes out you feel some relief for a while, maybe you even think that you won't eat any more meat. But when you see it again you can't resist it. You eat some more and then it gets stuck again. When it gets stuck you have to pick it out again, which gives some relief once more, until you eat some more meat...That's all there is to it. Sensual pleasures are just like this, no better than this. When the meat gets stuck in your teeth there's discomfort. You take a toothpick and pick it out and experience some relief. There's nothing more to it than this sensual desire...The pressure builds up and up until you let a little bit out...Oh! That's all there is to it. I don't know what all the fuss is about. I didn't learn these things from anybody else, they occurred to me in the course of my practice. I would sit in meditation and reflect on sensual pleasure as being like a red ants' nest. [38] Someone takes a piece of wood and pokes the nest until the ants come running out, crawling down the wood and into their faces, biting their eyes and ears. And yet they still don't see the difficulty they are in. However it's not beyond our ability. In the teaching of the Buddha it is said that if we've seen the harm of something, no matter how good it may seem to be, we know that it's harmful. Whatever we haven't yet seen the harm of, we just think it's good. If we haven't yet seen the harm of anything we can't get out of it. Have you noticed? No matter how dirty it may be people like it. This kind of "work" isn't clean but you don't even have to pay people to do it, they'll gladly volunteer. With other kinds of dirty work, even if you pay a good wage people won't do it, but this kind of work they submit themselves to gladly, you don't even have to pay them. It's not that it's clean work, either, it's dirty work. Yet why do people like it? How can you say that people are intelligent when they behave like this? Think about it. Have you ever noticed the dogs in the monastery ground here? There are packs of them. They run around biting each other, some of them even getting maimed. In another month or so they'll be at it. As soon as one of the smaller ones gets into the pack the bigger ones are at him...out he comes yelping, dragging his leg behind him. But when the pack runs on he hobbles on after it. He's only a little one, but he thinks he'll get his chance one day. They bite his leg for him and that's all he gets for his trouble. For the whole of the mating season he may not even get one chance. You can see this for yourself in the monastery here. These dogs when they run around howling in packs...I figure if they were humans they'd be singing songs! They think it's such great fun they're singing songs, but they don't have a clue what it is that makes them do it, they just blindly follow their instincts. Think about this carefully. If you really want to practice you should understand your feelings. For example, among the monks, novices or laypeople, who should you socialize with? If you associate with people who talk a lot they induce you to talk a lot also. Your own share is already enough, theirs is even more...put them together and they explode! People like to socialize with those who chatter a lot and talk of frivolous things. They can sit and listen to that for hours. When it comes to listening to Dhamma, talking about practice, there isn't much of it to be heard. Like when giving a Dhamma talk: As soon as I start off..."Namo Tassa Bhagavato' [39] ...they're all sleepy already. They don't take in the talk at all. When I reach the "Evam" they all open their eyes and wake up. Every time there's a Dhamma talk people fall asleep. How are they going to get any benefit from it? Real Dhamma cultivators will come away from a talk feeling inspired and uplifted, they learn something. Every six or seven days the teacher gives another talk, constantly boosting the practice. This is your chance, now that you are ordained. There's only this one chance, so take a close look. Look at things and consider which path you will choose. You are independent now. Where are you going to go from here? You are standing at the crossroads between the worldly way and the Dhamma way. Which way will you choose? You can take either way, this is the time to decide. The choice is yours to make. If you are to be liberated it is at this point. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the Dead of Night... Take a look at your fear...One day, as it was nearing nightfall, there was nothing else for it...If I tried to reason with myself I'd never go, so I grabbed a pa-kow and just went. "If it's time for it to die then let it die. If my mind is going to be so stubborn and stupid then let it die"...that's how I thought to myself. Actually in my heart I didn't really want to go but I forced myself to. When it comes to things like this, if you wait till everything's just right you'll end up never going. When would you ever train yourself? So I just went. I'd never stayed in a charnel ground before. When I got there, words can't describe the way I felt. The pa-kow wanted to camp right next to me but I wouldn't have it. I made him stay far away. Really I wanted him to stay close to keep me company but I wouldn't have it. I made him move away, otherwise I'd have counted on him for support. "If it's going to be so afraid then let it die tonight." I was afraid, but I dared. It's not that I wasn't afraid, but I had courage. In the end you have to die anyway. Well, just as it was getting dark I had my chance, in they came carrying a corpse. Just my luck! I couldn't even feel my feet touch the ground, I wanted to get out of there so badly. They wanted me to do some funeral chants but I wouldn't get involved, I just walked away. In a few minutes, after they'd gone, I just walked back and found that they had buried the corpse right next to my spot, making the bamboo used for carrying it into a bed for me to stay on. So now what was I do? It's not that the village was nearby, either, a good two or three kilometers away. "Well, if I'm going to die, I'm going to die"...If you've never dared to do it you'll never know what it's like. It's really an experience. As it got darker and darker I wondered where there was to run to in the middle of that charnel ground. "Oh, let it die. One is born to this life only to die, anyway." As soon as the sun sank the night told me to get inside my glot. [40] I didn't want to do any walking meditation, I only wanted to get into my net. Whenever I tried to walk towards the grave it was as if something was pulling me back from behind, to stop me from walking. It was as if my feelings of fear and courage were having a tug-of-war with me. But I did it. This is the way you must train yourself. When it was dark I got into my mosquito net. It felt as if I had a seven-tiered wall all around me. Seeing my trusty alms bowl there beside me was like seeing an old friend. Even a bowl can be a friend sometimes! Its presence beside me was comforting. I had a bowl for a friend at least. I sat in my net watching over the body all night. I didn't lie down or even doze off, I just sat quietly. I couldn't be sleepy even if I wanted to, I was so scared. Yes, I was scared, and yet I did it. I sat through the night. Now who would have the guts to practice like this? Try it and see. When it comes to experiences like this who would dare to go and stay in a charnel ground? If you don't actually do it you don't get the results, you don't really practice. This time I really practiced. When day broke I felt, "Oh! I've survived!" I was so glad, I just wanted to have daytime, no night time at all. I wanted to kill off the night and leave only daylight. I felt so good, I had survived. I thought, "Oh, there's nothing to it, it's just my own fear, that's all." After almsround and eating the meal I felt good, the sunshine came out, making me feel warm and cozy. I had a rest and walked a while. I thought, "This evening I should have some good, quiet meditation, because I've already been through it all last night. There's probably nothing more to it." Then, later in the afternoon, wouldn't you know it? In comes another one, a big one this time. [41] They brought the corpse in and cremated it right beside my spot, right in front of my glot. This was even worse than last night! "Well, that's good," I thought, "bringing in this corpse to burn here is going to help my practice." But still I wouldn't go and do any rites for them, I waited for them to leave first before taking a look. Burning that body for me to sit and watch over all night, I can't tell you how it was. Words can't describe it. Nothing I could say could convey the fear I felt. In the dead of night, remember. The fire from the burning corpse flickered red and green and the flames pattered softly. I wanted to do walking meditation in front of the body but could hardly bring myself to do it. Eventually I got into my net. The stench from the burning flesh lingered all through the night. And this was before things really started to happen...As the flames flickered softly I turned my back on the fire. I forgot about sleep, I couldn't even think of it, my eyes were fixed rigid with fear. And there was nobody to turn to, there was only me. I had to rely on myself. I could think of nowhere to go, there was nowhere to run to in that pitch black night. "Well, I'll sit and die here. I'm not moving from this spot." Here, talking of the ordinary mind, would it want to do this? Would it take you to such a situation? If you tried to reason it out you'd never go. Who would want to do such a thing? If you didn't have strong faith in the teaching of the Buddha you'd never do it. Now, about 10 p.m., I was sitting with my back to the fire. I don't know what it was, but there came a sound of shuffling from the fire behind me. Had the coffin just collapsed? Or maybe a dog was getting the corpse? But no, it sounded more like a buffalo walking steadily around. "Oh, never min..." But then it started walking towards me, just like a person! It walked up behind me, the footsteps heavy, like a buffalo's, and yet not...The leaves crunched under the footsteps as it made its way round to the front. Well, I could only prepare for the worst, where else was there to go? But it didn't really come up to me, it just circled around in front and then went off in the direction of the pa-kow. Then all was quiet. I don't know what it was, but my fear made me think of many possibilities. It must have been about half-an-hour later, I think, when the footsteps started coming back from the direction of the pa-kow. Just like a person! It came right up to me, this time, heading for me as if to run me over! I closed my eyes and refused to open them. "I'll die with my eyes closed." It got closer and closer until it stopped dead in front of me and just stood stock still. I felt as if it were waving burnt hands back and forth in front of my closed eyes. Oh! This was really it! I threw out everything, forgot all about Buddho, Dhammo and Sangho. I forgot everything else, there was only the fear in me, stacked in full to the brim. My thoughts couldn't go anywhere else, there was only fear. From the day I was born I had never experienced such fear. Buddho and Dhammo had disappeared, I don't know where. There was only fear welling up inside my chest until it felt like a tightly-stretched drumskin. "Well, I'll just leave it as it is, there's nothing else to do." I sat as if I wasn't even touching the ground and simply noted what was going on. The fear was so great that it filled me, like a jar completely filled with water. If you pour water until the jar is completely full, and then pour some more, the jar will overflow. Likewise, the fear built up so much within me that it reached its peak and began to overflow. "What am I so afraid of anyway?" a voice inside me asked. "I'm afraid of death," another voice answered. "Well, then, where is this thing 'death'? Why all the panic? Look where death abides. Where is death?" "Why, death is within me!" "If death is within you, then where are you going to run to escape it? If you run away you die, if you stay here you die. Wherever you go it goes with you because death lies within you, there's nowhere you can run to. Whether you are afraid or not you die just the same, there's nowhere to escape death." As soon as I had thought this, my perception seemed to change right around. All the fear completely disappeared as easily as turning over one's own hand. It was truly amazing. So much fear and yet it could disappear just like that! Non-fear arose in its place. Now my mind rose higher and higher until I felt as if I was in the clouds. As soon as I had conquered the fear, rain began to fall. I don't know what sort of rain it was, the wind was so strong. But I wasn't afraid of dying now. I wasn't afraid that the branches of the trees might come crashing down on me. I paid it no mind. The rain thundered down like a hot-season torrent, really heavy. By the time the rain had stopped everything was soaking wet. I sat unmoving. So what did I do next, soaking wet as I was? I cried! The tears flowed down my cheeks. I cried as I thought to myself, "Why am I sitting here like some sort of orphan or abandoned child, sitting, soaking in the rain like a man who owns nothing, like an exile?" And then I thought further, "All those people sitting comfortably in their homes right now probably don't even suspect that there is a monk sitting, soaking in the rain all night like this. What's the point of it all?" Thinking like this I began to feel so thoroughly sorry for myself that the tears came gushing out. "They're not good things anyway, these tears, let them flow right on out until they're all gone." This was how I practiced. Now I don't know how I can describe the things that followed. I sat...sat and listened. After conquering my feelings I just sat and watched as all manner of things arose in me, so many things that were possible to know but impossible to describe. And I thought of the Buddha's words...Paccattam veditabbo vińńuhi [42]-- "the wise will know for themselves." That I had endured such suffering and sat through the rain like this...who was there to experience it with me? Only I could know what it was like. There was so much fear and yet the fear disappeared. Who else could witness this? The people in their homes in the town couldn't know what it was like, only I could see it. It was a personal experience. Even if I were to tell others they wouldn't really know, it was something for each individual to experience for himself. The more I contemplated this the clearer it became. I became stronger and stronger, my conviction become firmer and firmer, until daybreak. When I opened my eyes at dawn, everything was yellow. I had been wanting to urinate during the night but the feeling had eventually stopped. When I got up from my sitting in the morning everywhere I looked was yellow, just like the early morning sunlight on some days. When I went to urinate there was blood in the urine! "Eh? Is my gut torn or something?" I got a bit of fright..."Maybe it's really torn inside there." "Well, so what? If it's torn it's torn, who is there to blame?" a voice told me straight away. "If it's torn it's torn, if I die I die. I was only sitting here, I wasn't doing any harm. If it's going to burst, let it burst," the voice said. My mind was as if arguing or fighting with itself. One voice would come from one side, saying, "Hey, this is dangerous!" Another voice would counter it, challenge it and over-rule it. My urine was stained with blood. "Hmm. Where am I going to find medicine?" "I'm not going to bother with that stuff. A monk can't cut plants for medicine anyway. If I die, I die, so what? What else is there to do? If I die while practicing like this then I'm ready. if I were to die doing something bad that's no good, but to die practicing like this I'm prepared." Don't follow your moods. Train yourself. The practice involves putting your very life at stake. You must have cried at least two or three times. That's right, that's the practice. If you're sleepy and want to lie down then don't let it sleep. Make the sleepiness go away before you lie down. But look at you all, you don't know how to practice. Sometimes, when you come back from almsround and you're contemplating the food before eating, you can't settle down, your mind is like a mad dog. The saliva flows, you're so hungry. Sometimes you may not even bother to contemplate, you just dig in. That's a disaster. If the mind won't calm down and be patient then just push your bowl away and don't eat. Train yourself, drill yourself, that's practice. Don't just keep on following your mind. Push your bowl away, get up and leave, don't allow yourself to eat. If it really wants to eat so much and acts so stubborn then don't let it eat. The saliva will stop flowing. If the defilements know that they won't get anything to eat they'll get scared. They won't dare bother you next day, they'll be afraid they won't get anything to eat. Try it out if you don't believe me. People don't trust the practice, they don't dare to really do it. They're afraid they'll go hungry, afraid they'll die. If you don't try it out you won't know what it's about. Most of us don't dare to do it, don't dare to try it out, we're afraid. When it comes to eating and the like I've suffered over them for a long time now so I know what they're about. And that's only a minor thing as well. So this practice is not something one can study easily. Consider: What is the most important thing of all? There's nothing else, just death. Death is the most important thing in the world. Consider, practice, inquire...If you don't have clothing you won't die. If you don't have betel nut to chew or cigarettes to smoke you still won't die. But if you don't have rice or water, then you will die. I see only these two things as being essential in this world. You need rice and water to nourish the body. So I wasn't interested in anything else, I just contented myself with whatever was offered. As long as I had rice and water it was enough to practice with, I was content. Is that enough for you? All those other things are extras, whether you get them or not doesn't matter, the only really important things are rice and water. "If I live like this can I survive?" I asked myself, "There's enough to get by on all right. I can probably get at least rice on almsround in just about any village, a mouthful from each house. Water is usually available. Just these two are enough..." I didn't aim to be particularly rich. In regards to the practice, right and wrong are usually co-existent. You must dare to do it, dare to practice. If you've never been to a charnel ground you should train yourself to go. If you can't go at night then go during the day. Then train yourself to go later and later until you can go at dusk and stay there. Then you will see the effects of the practice, then you will understand. This mind has been deluded now for who knows how many lifetimes. Whatever we don't like or love we want to avoid, we just indulge in our fears. And then we say we're practicing. This can't be called "practice." If it's real practice you'll even risk your life. If you've really made up your mind to practice why would you take an interest in petty concerns?..."I only got a little, you got a lot." "You quarreled with me so I'm quarreling with you..." I had none of these thoughts because I wasn't looking for such things. Whatever others did was their business. Going to other monasteries I didn't get involved in such things. However high or low others practiced I wouldn't take any interest, I just looked after my own business. And so I dared to practice, and the practice gave rise to wisdom and insight. If your practice has really hit the spot then you really practice. Day or night you practice. At night, when it's quiet, I'd sit in meditation, then come down to walk, alternating back and forth like this at least two or three times a night. Walk, then sit, then walk some more...I wasn't bored, I enjoyed it. Sometimes it'd be raining softly and I'd think of the times I used to work the rice paddies. My pants would still be wet from the day before but I'd have to get up before dawn and put them on again. Then I'd have to go down to below the house to get the buffalo out of its pen. All I could see of the buffalo would be covered in buffalo shit. Then the buffalo's tail would be sore with athlete's foot and I'd walk along thinking, "Why is life so miserable?" And now here I was walking meditation...what was a little bit of rain to me? Thinking like this I encouraged myself in the practice. If the practice has entered the stream then there's nothing to compare with it. There's no suffering like the suffering of a Dhamma cultivator and there's no happiness like the happiness of one either. There's no zeal to compare with the zeal of the cultivator and there's no laziness to compare with them either. Practicers of the Dhamma are tops. That's why I say if you really practice it's a sight to see. But most of us just talk about practice without having done it or reached it. Our practice is like the man whose roof is leaking on one side so he sleeps on the other side of the house. When the sunshine comes in on that side he rolls over to the other side, all the time thinking, "When will I ever get a decent house like everyone else?" If the whole roof leaks then he just gets up and leaves. This is not the way to do things, but that's how most people are. This mind of ours, these defilements...if you follow them they'll cause trouble. The more you follow them the more the practice degenerates. With the real practice sometimes you even amaze yourself with your zeal. Whether other people practice or not, don't take any interest, simply do your own practice consistently. Whoever comes or goes it doesn't matter, just do the practice. You must look at yourself before it can be called "practice." When you really practice there are no conflicts in your mind, there is only Dhamma. Wherever you are still inept, wherever you are still lacking, that's where you must apply yourself. If you haven't yet cracked it don't give up. Having finished with one thing you get stuck on another, so persist with it until you crack it, don't let up. Don't be content until it's finished. Put all your attention on that point. While sitting, lying down or walking, watch right there. It's just like a farmer who hasn't yet finished his fields. Every year he plants rice but this year he still hasn't gotten it finished, so his mind is stuck on that, he can't rest content. His work is still unfinished. Even when he's with friends he can't relax, he's all the time nagged by his unfinished business. Or like a mother who leaves her baby upstairs in the house while she goes to feed the animals below: she's always got her baby in mind, lest it should fall from the house. Even though she may do other things, her baby is never far from her thoughts. It's just the same for us and our practice -- we never forget it. Even though we may do other things our practice is never far from our thoughts, it's constantly with us, day and night. It has to be like this if you are really going to make progress. In the beginning you must rely on a teacher to instruct and advise you. When you understand, then practice. When the teacher has instructed you follow the instructions. If you understand the practice it's no longer necessary for the teacher to teach you, just do the work yourselves. Whenever heedlessness or unwholesome qualities arise know for yourself, teach yourself. Do the practice yourself. The mind is the one who knows, the witness. The mind knows for itself if you are still very deluded or only a little deluded. Wherever you are still faulty try to practice right at that point, apply yourself to it. Practice is like that. It's almost like being crazy, or you could even say you are crazy. When you really practice you are crazy, you "flip." You have distorted perception and then you adjust your perception. If you don't adjust it, it's going to be just as troublesome and just as wretched as before. So there's a lot of suffering in the practice, but if you don't know your own suffering you won't understand the Noble Truth of Suffering. To understand suffering, to kill it off, you first have to encounter it. If you want to shoot a bird but don't go out and find it how will you ever to shoot it? Suffering, suffering...the Buddha taught about suffering: The suffering of birth, the suffering you won't see suffering. If you don't understand suffering you won't be able to get rid of suffering. Now people don't want to see suffering, they don't want to experience it. If they suffer here they run over there. You see? They're simply dragging their suffering around with them, they never kill it. They don't contemplate or investigate it. If they feel suffering here they run over there; if it arises there they run back here. They try to run away from suffering physically. As long as you are still ignorant, wherever you go you'll find suffering. Even if you boarded an airplane to get away from it, it would board the plane with you. If you dived under the water it would dive in with you, because suffering lies within us. But we don't know that. If it lies within us where can we run to escape it? People have suffering in one place so they go somewhere else. When suffering arises there they run off again. They think they're running away from suffering but they're not, suffering goes with them. They carry suffering around without knowing it. If we don't know the cause of suffering then we can't know the cessation of suffering, there's no way we can escape it. You must look into this intently until you're beyond doubt. You must dare to practice. Don't shirk it, either in a group or alone. If others are lazy it doesn't matter. Whoever does a lot of walking meditation, a lot of practice...I guarantee results. If you really practice consistently, whether others come or go or whatever, one rains retreat is enough. Do it like I've been telling you here. Listen to the teacher's words, don't quibble, don't be stubborn. Whatever he tells you to do go right ahead and do it. You needn't be timid of the practice, knowledge will surely arise from it. Practice is also patipada. What is patipada? Practice evenly, consistently. Don't practice like Old Reverend Peh. One Rains Retreat he determined to stop talking. He stopped talking all right but then he started writing notes..."Tomorrow please toast me some rice." He wanted to eat toasted rice! He stopped talking but ended up writing so many notes that he was even more scattered than before. One minute he'd write one thing, the next another, what a farce! I don't know why he bothered determining not to talk. He didn't know what practice is. Actually our practice is to be content with little, to just be natural. Don't worry whether you feel lazy or diligent. Don't even say "I'm diligent" or "I'm lazy." Most people practice only when they feel diligent, if they feel lazy they don't bother. This is how people usually are. But monks shouldn't think like that. If you are diligent you practice, when you are lazy you still practice. Don't bother with other things, cut them off, throw them out, train yourself. Practice consistently, whether day or night, this year, next year, whatever the time...don't pay attention to thoughts of diligence or laziness, don't worry whether it's hot or cold, just do it. This is called sammapatipada -- Right Practice. Some people really apply themselves to the practice for six or seven days, then, when they don't get the results they wanted, give it up and revert completely, indulging in chatter, socializing and whatever. Then they remember the practice and go at it for another six or seven days, then give it up again...It's like the way some people work. At first they throw themselves into it...then, when they stop, they don't even bother picking up their tools, they just walk off and leave them there. Later on, when the soil has all caked up, they remember their work and do a bit more, only to leave it again. Doing things this way you'll never get a decent garden or paddy. Our practice is the same. If you think this patipada is unimportant you won't get anywhere with the practice. Sammapatipada is unquestionably important. Do it constantly. Don't listen to your moods. So what if your mood is good or not? The Buddha didn't bother with those things. He had experienced all the good things and bad things, the right things and wrong things. That was his practice. Taking only what you like and discarding whatever you don't like isn't practice, it's disaster. Wherever you go you will never be satisfied, wherever you stay there will be suffering. Practicing like this is like the Brahmans making their sacrifices. Why do they do it? Because they want something in exchange. Some of us practice like this. Why do we practice? Because we seek re-birth, another state of being, we want to attain something. If we don't get what we want then we don't want to practice, just like the Brahmans making their sacrifices. They do so because of desire. The Buddha didn't teach like that. The cultivation of the practice is for giving up, for letting go, for stopping, for uprooting. You don't do it for re-birth into any particular state. There was once a Thera who had initially gone forth into the Mahanikai sect. But he found it not strict enough so he took Dhammayuttika ordination. [43] Then he started practicing. Sometimes he would fast for fifteen days, then when he ate he'd eat only leaves and grass. He thought that eating animals was bad kamma, that it would be better to eat leaves and grass. After a while..."Hmm. Being a monk is not so good, it's inconvenient. It's hard to maintain my vegetarian practice as a monk. Maybe I'll disrobe and become a pa-kow." So he disrobed and became a pa-kow so that he could gather the leaves and grass for himself and dig for roots and yams. He carried on like that for a while till in the end he didn't know what he should be doing. He gave it all up. He gave up being a monk, gave up being a pa-kow, gave up everything. These days I don't know what he's doing. Maybe he's dead, I don't know. This is because he couldn't find anything to suit his mind. He didn't realize that he was simply following defilements. The defilements were leading him on but he didn't know it. "Did the Buddha disrobe and become a pa-kow? How did the Buddha practice? What did he do?" He didn't consider this. Did the Buddha go and eat leaves and grass like a cow? Sure, if you want to eat like that go ahead, if that's all you can manage, but don't go round criticizing others. Whatever standard of practice you find suitable then persevere with that. "Don't gouge or carve too much or you won't have a decent handle." [44] You'll be left with nothing and in the end just give up. Some people are like this. When it comes to walking meditation they really go at it for fifteen days or so. They don't even bother eating, just walk. Then when they finish that they just lie around and sleep. They don't bother considering carefully before they start to practice. In the end nothing suits them. Being a monk doesn't suit them, being a pa-kow doesn't suit them...so they end up with nothing. People like this don't know practice, they don't look into the reasons for practicing. Think about what you're practicing for. They teach this practice for throwing off. The mind wants to love this person and hate that person...these things may arise but don't take them for real. So what are we practicing for? Simply so that we can give up these very things. Even if you attain peace, throw out the peace. If knowledge arises, throw out the knowledge. If you know then you know, but if you take that knowing to be your own then you think you know something. Then you think you are better than others. After a while you can't live anywhere, wherever you live problems arise. If you practice wrongly it's just as if you didn't practice at all. Practice according to your capacity. Do you sleep a lot? Then try going against the grain. Do you eat a lot? Then try eating less. Take as much practice as you need, using sila, samadhi and pańńa as your basis. Then throw in the dhutanga practices also. These dhutanga [45] practices are for digging into the defilements. You may find the basic practices still not enough to really uproot the defilements, so you have to incorporate the dhutanga practices as well. These dhutanga practices are really useful. Some people can't kill off the defilements with basic sila and samadhi, they have to bring in the dhutanga practices to help out. The dhutanga practices cut off many things. Living at the foot of a tree...Living at the foot of a tree isn't against the precepts. But if you determine the dhutanga practice of living in a charnel ground and then don't do it, that's wrong. Try it out. What's like to live in a charnel ground? Is it the same as living in a group? DHU-TAN-GA: This translates as "the practices which are hard to do." These are the practices of the Noble Ones. Whoever wants to be a Noble One must use the dhutanga practices to cut the defilements. It's difficult to observe them and it's hard to find people with the commitment to practice them, because they go against the grain. Such as with robes; they say to limit your robes to the basic three robes; to maintain yourself on almsfood; to eat only in the bowl; to eat only what you get on almsround, if anyone brings food to offer afterwards you don't accept it. Keeping this last practice in central Thailand is easy, the food is quite adequate, because there they put a lot of food in your bowl. But when you come to the Northeast here this dhutanga takes on subtle nuances -- here you get plain rice! In these parts the tradition is to put only plain rice in the almsbowl. In central Thailand they give rice and other foods also, but around these parts you get only plain rice. This dhutanga practice becomes really ascetic. You eat only plain rice, whatever is brought to offer afterwards you don't accept. Then there is eating once a day, at one sitting, from only one bowl -- when you've finished eating you get up from your seat and don't eat again that day. These are called dhutanga practices. Now who will practice them? It's hard these days to find people with enough commitment to practice them because they are demanding, but that is why they are so beneficial. What people call practice these days is not really practice. If you really practice it's no easy matter. Most people don't dare to really practice, don't dare to really go against the grain. They don't want to do anything which runs contrary to their feelings. People don't want to resist the defilements, they don't want to dig at them or get rid of them. In our practice they say not to follow your own moods. Consider: we have been fooled for countless lifetimes already into believing that the mind is our own. Actually it isn't, it's just an impostor. It drags us into greed, drags us into aversion, drags us into delusion, drags us into theft, plunder, desire and hatred. These things aren't ours. Just ask yourself right now: do you want to be good? Everybody wants to be good. Now doing all these things, is that good? There! People commit malicious acts and yet they want to be good. That's why I say these things are tricksters, that's all they are. The Buddha didn't want us to follow this mind, he wanted us to train it. If it goes one way then take cover another way. When it goes over there then take cover back here. To put it simply: whatever the mind wants, don't let it have it. It's as if we've been friends for years but we finally reach a point where our ideas are no longer the same. We split up and go our separate ways. We no longer understand each other, in fact we even argue, so we break up. That's right, don't follow your own mind. Whoever follows his own mind, follows its likes and desires and everything else, that person hasn't yet practiced at all. This is why I say that what people call practice is not really practice...it's disaster. if you don't stop and take a look, don't try the practice, you won't see, you won't attain the Dhamma. To put it straight, in our practice you have to commit your very life. It's not that it isn't difficult, this practice, it has to entail some suffering. Especially in the first year or two, there's a lot of suffering. The young monks and novices really have a hard time. I've had a lot of difficulties in the past, especially with food. What can you expect? Becoming a monk at twenty when you are just getting into your food and sleep...some days I would sit alone and just dream of food. I'd want to eat bananas in syrup, or papaya salad, and my saliva would start to run. This is part of the training. All these things are not easy. This business of food and eating can lead one into a lot of bad kamma. Take someone who's just growing up, just getting into his food and sleep, and constrain him in these robes and his feelings run amok. It's like damming a flowing torrent, sometimes the dam just breaks. If it survives that's fine, but if not it just collapses. My meditation in the first year was nothing else, just food. I was so restless...Sometimes I would sit there and it was almost as if I was actually popping bananas into my mouth. I could almost feel myself breaking the bananas into pieces and putting them in my mouth. And this is all part of the practice. So don't be afraid of it. We've all been deluded for countless lifetimes now so coming to train ourselves, to correct ourselves, is no easy matter. But if it's difficult it's worth doing. Why should we bother with easy things? So those things that are difficult, anybody can do the easy things. We should train ourselves to do that which is difficult. It must have been the same for Buddha. If he had just worried about his family and relatives, his wealth and his past sensual pleasures, he'd never have become the Buddha. These aren't trifling matters, either, they're just what most people are looking for. So going forth at an early age and giving up these things is just like dying. And yet some people come up and say, "Oh, it's easy for you, Luang Por. You never had a wife and children to worry about, so it's easier for you!" I say, "Don't get too close to me when you say that or you'll get a clout over the head!"...as if I didn't have a heart or something! When it comes to people it's no trifling matter. It's what life is all about. So we Dhamma practicers should earnestly get into the practice, really dare to do it. Don't believe others, just listen to the Buddha's teaching. Establish peace in your hearts. In time you will understand. Practice, reflect, contemplate, and the fruits of the practice will be there. The cause and the result are proportional. Don't give in to your moods. In the beginning even finding the right amount of sleep is difficult. You may determine to sleep a certain time but can't manage it. You must train yourself. Whatever time you decide to get up, then get up as soon as it comes round. Sometimes you can do it, but sometimes as soon as you awake you say to yourself "get up!" and it won't budge! You may have to say to yourself, "One...Two...if I reach the count three and still don't get up may I fall into hell!" You have to teach yourself like this. When you get to three you'll get up immediately, you'll be afraid of falling into hell. You must train yourself, you can't dispense with the training. You must train yourself from all angles. Don't just lean on your teacher, your friends or the group all the time or you'll never become wise. It's not necessary to hear so much instruction, just hear the teaching once or twice and then do it. The well trained mind won't dare cause trouble, even in private. In the mind of the adept there is no such thing as "private" or "in public." All Noble Ones have confidence in their own hearts. We should be like this. Some people become monks simply to find an easy life. Where does ease come from? What is its cause? All ease has to be preceded by suffering. In all things it's the same: you must work before you get rice. In all things you must first experience difficulty. Some people become monks in order to rest and take it easy, they say they just want to sit around and rest awhile. If you don't study the books do you expect to be able to read and write? It can't be done. This is why most people who have studied a lot and become monks never get anywhere. Their knowledge is of a different kind, on a different path. They don't train themselves, they don't look at their minds. They only stir up their minds with confusion, seeking things which are not conducive to calm and restraint. The knowledge of the Buddha is not worldly knowledge, it is supramundane knowledge, a different way altogether. This is why whoever goes forth into the Buddhist monkhood must give up whatever level or status or position they have held previously. Even when a king goes forth he must relinquish his previous status, he doesn't bring that worldly stuff into the monkhood with him to throw his weight around with. He doesn't bring his wealth, status, knowledge or power into the monkhood with him. The practice concerns giving up, letting go, uprooting, stopping. You must understand this in order to make the practice work. If you are sick and don't treat the illness with medicine do you think the illness will cure itself? Wherever you are afraid you should go. Wherever there is a cemetery or charnel ground which is particularly fearsome, go there. Put on your robes, go there and contemplate, Anicca vata sankhara... [46] Stand and walk meditation there, look inward and see where your fear lies. It will be all too obvious. Understand the truth of all conditioned things. Stay there and watch until dusk falls and it gets darker and darker, until you are even able to stay there all night. The Buddha said, "Whoever sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata. Whoever sees the Tathagata sees Nibbana." If we don't follow his example how will we see the Dhamma? If we don't see the Dhamma how will we know the Buddha? If we don't see the Buddha how will we know the qualities of the Buddha? Only if we practice in the footsteps of the Buddha will we know that what the Buddha taught is utterly certain, that the Buddha's teaching is the supreme truth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sense Contact -- the Fount of Wisdom All of us have made up our minds to become bhikkhus and samaneras [47] in the Buddhist Dispensation in order to find peace. Now what is true peace? True peace, the Buddha said, is not very far away, it lies right here within us, but we tend to continually overlook it. People have their ideas about finding peace but still tend to experience confusion and agitation, they still tend to be unsure and haven't yet found fulfillment in their practice. They haven't yet reached the goal. It's as if we have left our home to travel to many different places. Whether we get into a car or board a boat, no matter where we go, we still haven't reached our home. As long as we still haven't reached home we don't feel content, we still have some unfinished business to take care of. This is because our journey is not yet finished, we haven't reached our destination. We travel all over the place in search of liberation. All of you bhikkhus and samaneras here want peace, every one of you. Even myself, when I was younger, searched all over for peace. Wherever I went I couldn't be satisfied. Going into forests or visiting various teachers, listening to Dhamma talks, I could find no satisfaction. Why is this? We look for peace in peaceful places, where there won't be sights, or sounds, or odors, or flavors...thinking that living quietly like this is the way to find contentment, that herein lies peace. But actually, if we live very quietly in places where nothing arises, can wisdom arise? Would we be aware of anything? Think about it. If our eye didn't see sights, what would that be like? If the nose didn't experience smells, what would that be like? If the tongue didn't experience flavors what would that be like? If the body didn't experience feelings at all, what would that be like? To be like that would be like being a blind and deaf man, one whose nose and tongue had fallen off and who was completely numb with paralysis. Would there be anything there? And yet people tend to think that if they went somewhere where nothing happened they would find peace. Well, I've thought like that myself, I once thought that way... When I was a young monk just starting to practice, I'd sit in meditation and sounds would disturb me, I'd think to myself, "What can I do to make my mind peaceful?" So I took some beeswax and stuffed my ears with it so that I couldn't hear anything. All that remained was a humming sound. I thought that would be peaceful, but no, all that thinking and confusion didn't arise at the ears after all. It arose at the mind. That is the place to search for peace. To put it another way, no matter where you go to stay, you don't want to do anything because it interferes with your practice. You don't want to sweep the grounds or do any work, you just want to be still and find peace that way. The teacher asks you to help out with the chores or any of the daily duties but you don't put your heart into it because you feel it is only an external concern. I've often brought up the example of one of my disciples who was really eager to "let go" and find peace. I taught about "letting go" and he accordingly understood that to let go of everything would indeed be peaceful. Actually right from the day he had come to stay here he didn't want to do anything. Even when the wind blew half the roof off his kuti he wasn't interested. He said that that was just an external thing. So he didn't bother fixing it up. When the sunlight and rain streamed in from one side he'd move over to the other side. That wasn't any business of his. His business was to make his mind peaceful. That other stuff was a distraction, he wouldn't get involved. That was how he saw it. One day I was walking past and saw the collapsed roof. "Eh? Whose kuti is this?" Someone told me whose it was, and I thought, "Hmm. Strange..." So I had a talk with him, explaining many things, such as the duties in regard to our dwellings, the senasanavatta. "We must have a dwelling place, and we must look after it. "Letting go" isn't like this, it doesn't mean shirking our responsibilities. That's the action of a fool. The rain comes in on one side so you move over to the other side, then the sunshine comes out and you move back to that side. Why is that? Why don't you bother to let go there?" I gave him a long discourse on this; then when I'd finished, he said, "Oh, Luang Por, sometimes you teach me to cling and sometimes you teach me to let go. I don't know what you want me to do. Even when my roof collapses and I let go to this extent, still you say it's not right. And yet you teach me to let go! I don't know what more you can expect of me..." You see? People are like this. They can be as stupid as this. Are there visual objects within the eye? If there are no external visual objects would our eyes see anything? Are their sounds within our ears if external sounds don't make contact? If there are no smells outside would we experience them. Where are the causes? Think about what the Buddha said: All dhammas [48] arise because of causes. If we didn't have ears would we experience sounds? If we had no eyes would we be able to see sights? Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind -- these are the causes. It is said that all dhammas arise because of conditions, when they cease it's because the causal conditions have ceased. For resulting conditions to arise, the causal conditions must first arise. If we think that peace lies where there are no sensations would wisdom arise? Would there be causal and resultant conditions? Would we have anything to practice with? If we blame the sounds, then where there are sounds we can't be peaceful. We think that place is no good. Wherever there are sights we say that's not peaceful. If that's the case then to find peace we'd have to be one whose senses have all died, blind, and deaf. I thought about this... "Hmm. This is strange. Suffering arises because of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. So should we be blind? If we didn't see anything at all maybe that would be better. One would have no defilements arising if one were blind, or deaf. Is this the way it is?"... But, thinking about it, it wall all wrong. If that was the case then blind and deaf people would be enlightened. They would all be accomplished if defilements arose at the eyes and ears. There are the causal conditions. Where things arise, at the cause, that's where we must stop them. Where the cause arises, that's where we must contemplate. Actually, the sense bases of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are all things which can facilitate the arising of wisdom, if we know them as they are. If we don't really know them we must deny them, saying we don't want to see sights, hear sounds, and so on, because they disturb us. If we cut off the causal conditions what are we going to contemplate? Think about it. Where would there be any cause and effect? This is wrong thinking on our part. This is why we are taught to be restrained. Restraint is sila. There is the sila of sense restraint: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind: these are our sila, and they are our samadhi. Reflect on the story Sariputta. At the time before he became a bhikkhu he saw Assaji Thera going on almsround. Seeing him, Sariputta thought, "This monk is most unusual. He walks neither too fast nor too slow, his robes are neatly worn, his bearing is restrained." Sariputta was inspired by him and so approached Venerable Assaji, paid his respects and asked him, "Excuse me, sir, who are you?" "I am a samana." "Who is your teacher?" "Venerable Gotama is my teacher." "What does Venerable Gotama teach?" "He teaches that all things arise because of conditions. When they cease it's because the causal conditions have ceased." When asked about the Dhamma by Sariputta, Assaji explained only in brief, he talked about cause and effect. Dhammas arise because of causes. The cause arises first and then the result. When the result is to cease the cause must first cease. That's all he said, but it was enough for Sariputta. [49] Now this was a cause for the arising of Dhamma. At that time Sariputta had eyes, he had ears, he had a nose, a tongue, a body and a mind. All his faculties were intact. If he didn't have his faculties would there have been sufficient causes for wisdom to arise for him? Would he have been aware of anything? But most of us are afraid of contact. Either that or we like to have contact but we develop no wisdom from it: instead we repeatedly indulge through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind, delighting in and getting lost in sense objects. This is how it is. These sense bases can entice us into delight and indulgence or they can lead to knowledge and wisdom. They have both harm and benefit, depending on our wisdom. So now let us understand that, having gone forth and come to practice, we should take everything as practice. Even the bad things. We should know them all. Why? So that we may know the truth. When we talk of practice we don't simply mean those things that are good and pleasing to us. That's not how it is. In this world some things are to our liking, some are not. These things all exist in this world, nowhere else. Usually whatever we like we want, even with fellow monks and novices. Whatever monk or novice we don't like we don't want to associate with, we only want to be with those we like. You see? This is choosing according to our likes. Whatever we don't like we don't want to see or know about. Actually the Buddha wanted us to experience these things. Lokavidu -- look at this world and know it clearly. If we don't know the truth of the world clearly then we can't go anywhere. Living in the world we must understand the world. The Noble Ones of the past, including the Buddha, all lived with these things, they lived in this world, among deluded people. They attained the truth right in this very world, nowhere else. They didn't run off to some other world to find the truth. But they had wisdom. They restrained their senses, but the practice is to look into all these things and know them as they are. Therefore the Buddha taught us to know the sense bases, our points of contact. The eye contacts forms and sends them "in" to become sights. The ears make contact with sounds, the nose makes contact with odors, the tongue makes contact with tastes, the body makes contact with tactile sensations, and so awareness arises. Where awareness arises is where we should look and see things as they are. If we don;t know these things as they really are we will either fall in love with them or hate them. Where these sensations arise is where we can become enlightened, where wisdom can arise. But sometimes we don't want things to be like that. The Buddha taught restraint, but restraint doesn't mean we don't see anything, hear anything, smell, taste, feel or think anything. That's not what it means. If practicers don't understand this then as soon as they see or hear anything they cower and run away. They don't deal with things. They run away, thinking that by so doing those things will eventually lose their power over them, that they will eventually transcend them. But they won't. They won't transcend anything like that. If they run away not knowing the truth of them, later on the same stuff will pop up to be dealt with again. For example, those practicers who are never content, be they in monasteries, forests, or mountains. They wander on "dhutanga pilgrimage" looking at this, that and the other, thinking they'll find contentment that way. They go, and then they come back...didn't see anything. They try going to a mountain top..."Ah! This is the spot, now I'm right." They feel at peace for a few days and then get tired of it. "Oh, well, off to the seaside." "Ah, here it's nice and cool. This'll do me fine." After a while they get tired of the seaside as well...Tired of the forests, tired of the mountains, tired of the seaside, tired of everything. This is not being tired of things in the right sense, [50] as Right View, it's simply boredom, a kind of Wrong View. Their view is not in accordance with the way things are. When they get back to the monastery..."Now, what will I do? I've been all over and come back with nothing." So they throw away their bowls and disrobe. Why do they disrobe? Because they haven't got any grip on the practice, they don't see anything; go to the north and don't see anything; go to the seaside, to the mountains, into the forests and still don't see anything. So it's all finished...they "die." This is how it goes. It's because they're continually running away from things. Wisdom doesn't arise. Now take another example. Suppose there is one monk who determines to stay with things, not to run away. He looks after himself. He knows himself and also knows those who come to stay with him. He's continually dealing with problems. For example, the Abbot. If one is an Abbot of a monastery there are constant problems to deal with, there's a constant stream of things that demand attention. Why so? Because people are always asking questions. The questions never end, so you must be constantly on the alert. You are constantly solving problems, your own as well as other people's. That is, you must be constantly awake. Before you can doze off they wake you up again with another problem. So this causes you to contemplate and understand things. You become skillful: skillful in regard to yourself and skillful in regard to others. Skillful in many, many ways. This skill arises from contact, from confronting and dealing with things, from not running away. We don't run away physically but we "run away" in mind, using our wisdom. We understand with wisdom right here, we don't run away from anything. This is a source of wisdom. One must work, must associate with other things. For instance, living in a big monastery like this we must all help out to look after the things here. Looking at it in one way you could say that it's all defilement. Living with lots of monks and novices, with many laypeople coming and going, many defilements may arise. Yes, I admit...but we must live like this for the development of wisdom and the abandonment of foolishness. Which way are we to go? Are we going to live in order to get rid of foolishness or to increase our foolishness? We must contemplate. Whenever eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind make contact we should be collected and circumspect. When suffering arises, who is suffering? Why did this suffering arise? The Abbot of a monastery has to supervise many disciples. Now that may be suffering. We must know suffering when it arises. Know suffering. If we are afraid of suffering and don't want to face it, where are we going to do battle with it? If suffering arises and we don't know it, how are we going to deal with it? This is of utmost importance -- we must know suffering. Escaping from suffering means knowing the way out of suffering, it doesn't mean running away from wherever suffering arises. By doing that you just carry your suffering with you. When suffering arises again somewhere else you'll have to run away again. This is not transcending suffering, it's not knowing suffering. If you want to understand suffering you must look into the situation at hand. The teachings say that wherever a problem arises it must be settled right there. Where suffering lies is right where non-suffering will arise, it ceases at the place where it arises. If suffering arises you must contemplate right there, you don't have to run away. You should settle the issue right there. One who runs away from suffering out of fear is the most foolish person of all. He will simply increases his stupidity endlessly. We must understand: suffering is none other than the First Noble Truth, isn't that so? Are you going to look on it as something bad? Dukkha sacca, samudaya sacca, nirodha sacca, magga sacca... [51] Running away from these things isn't practicing according to the true Dhamma. When will you ever see the Truth of Suffering? If we keep running away from suffering we will never know it. Suffering is something we should recognize -- if you don't observe it when will you ever recognize it? Not being content here you run over there, when discontent arises there you run off again. You are always running. If that's the way you practice you'll be racing with the Devil all over the country! The Buddha taught us to "run away" using wisdom. For instance: suppose you had stepped on a thorn or splinter and it got embedded in your foot. As you walk it occasionally hurts, occasionally not. Sometimes you may step on a stone or a stump and it really hurts, so you feel around your foot. But not finding anything you shrug it off and walk on a bit more. Eventually you step on something else, and the pain arises again. Now this happens many times. What is the cause of that pain? The cause is that splinter or thorn embedded in your foot. The pain is constantly near. Whenever the pain arises you may take a look and feel around a bit, but, not seeing the splinter, you let it go. After a while it hurts again so you take another look. When suffering arises you must note it, don't just shrug it off. Whenever the pain arises..."Hmm...that splinter is still there." Whenever the pain arises there arises also the thought that that splinter has got to go. If you don't take it out there will only be more pain later on. The pain keeps recurring again and again, until the desire to take out that thorn is constantly with you. In the end it reaches a point where you make up your mind once and for all to get out that thorn -- because it hurts! Now our effort in the practice must be like this. Wherever it hurts, wherever there's friction, we must investigate. Confront the problem, head on. Take that thorn out of your foot, just pull it out. Wherever your mind gets stuck you must take note. As you look into it you will know it, see it and experience it as it is. But our practice must be unwavering and persistent. They call it viriyarambha -- putting forth constant effort. Whenever an unpleasant feeling arises in your foot, for example, you must remind yourself to get out that thorn, don't give up your resolve. Likewise, when suffering arises in our hearts we must have the unwavering resolve to try to uproot the defilements, to give them up. This resolve is constantly there, unremitting. Eventually the defilements will fall into our hands where we can finish them off. So in regard to happiness and suffering, what are we to do? If we didn't have these things what could we use as a cause to precipitate wisdom? If there is no cause how will the effect arise? All dhammas arise because of causes. When the result ceases it's because the cause has ceased. This is how it is, but most of us don't really understand. People only want to run away from suffering. This sort of knowledge is short of the mark. Actually we need to know this very world that we are living in, we don't have to run away anywhere. You should have the attitude that to stay is fine...and to go is fine. Think about this carefully. Where do happiness and suffering lie? Whatever we don't hold fast to, cling to or fix on to, as if it weren't there. Suffering doesn't arise. Suffering arises from existence (bhava). If there is existence then there is birth. Upadana -- clinging or attachment -- this is the pre-requisite which creates suffering. Wherever suffering arises look into it. Don't look too far away, look right into the present moment. Look at your own mind and body. When suffering arises..."Why is there suffering?" Look right now. When happiness arises, what is the cause of that happiness? Look right there. Wherever these things arise be aware. Both happiness and suffering arise from clinging. The cultivators of old saw their minds in this way. There is only arising and ceasing. There is no abiding entity. They contemplated from all angles and saw that there was nothing much to this mind, nothing is stable. There is only arising and ceasing, ceasing and arising, nothing is of any lasting substance. While walking or sitting they saw things in this way. Wherever they looked there was only suffering, that's all. It's just like a big iron ball which has just been blasted in a furnace. It's hot all over. If you touch the top it's hot, touch the sides and they're hot -- it's hot all over. There isn't any place on it which is cool. Now if we don't consider these things we know nothing about them. We must see clearly. Don't get "born" into things, don't fall into birth. Know the workings of birth. Such thoughts as, "Oh, I can't stand that person, he does everything wrongly," will no longer arise. Or, "I really like so and so...", these things don't arise. There remain merely the conventional worldly standards of like and dislike, but one's speech is one way, one's mind another. They are separate things. We must use the conventions of the world to communicate with each other, but inwardly we must be empty. The mind is above those things. We must bring the mind to transcendence like this. This is the abiding of the Noble Ones. We must all aim for this and practice accordingly. Don't get caught up in doubts. Before I started to practice, I thought to myself, "The Buddhist religion is here, available for all, and yet why do only some people practice while others don't? Or if they do practice, they do so only for a short while then give up. Or again those who don't give it up still don't knuckle down and do the practice? Why is this?" So I resolved to myself, "Okay...I'll give up this body and mind for this lifetime and try to follow the teaching of the Buddha down to the last detail. I'll reach understanding in this very lifetime...because if I don't I'll still be sunk in suffering. I'll let go of everything else and make a determined effort, no matter how much difficulty or suffering I have to endure, I'll persevere. If I don't do it I'll just keep on doubting." Thinking like this I got down to practice. No matter how much happiness, suffering or difficulty I had to endure I would do it. I looked on my whole life as if it was only one day and a night. I gave it up. "I'll follow the teaching of the Buddha, I'll follow the Dhamma to understanding -- Why is this world of delusion so wretched?" I wanted to know, I wanted to master the Teaching, so I turned to the practice of Dhamma. How much of the worldly life do we monastics renounce? If we have gone forth for good then it means we renounce it all, there's nothing we don't renounce. All the things of the world that people enjoy are cast off: sights, sounds, smells, tastes and feelings...we throw them all away. And yet we experience them. So Dhamma practicers must be content with little and remain detached. Whether in regard to speech, in eating or whatever, we must be easily satisfied: eat simply, sleep simply, live simply. Just like they say, "an ordinary person," one who lives simply. The more you practice the more you will be able to take satisfaction in your practice. You will see into your own heart. The Dhamma is paccattam, you must know it for yourself. To know for yourself means to practice for yourself. You can depend on a teacher only fifty percent of the way. Even the teaching I have given you today is completely useless in itself, even if it is worth hearing. But if you were to believe it all just because I said so you wouldn't be using the teaching properly. If you believed me completely then you'd be foolish. To hear the teaching, see its benefit, put it into practice for yourself, see it within yourself, do it yourself...this is much more useful. You will then know the taste of Dhamma for yourself. This is why the Buddha didn't talk about the fruits of the practice in much detail, because it's something one can't convey in words. It would be like trying to describe different colors to a person blind from birth, "Oh, it's so white," or "it's bright yellow," for instance. You couldn't convey those colors to them. You could try but it wouldn't serve much purpose. The Buddha brings it back down to the individual -- see clearly for yourself. If you see clearly for yourself you will have clear proof within yourself. Whether standing, walking, sitting or reclining you will be free of doubt. Even if someone were to say, "Your practice isn't right, it's all wrong," still you would be unmoved, because you have your own proof. A practicer of the Dhamma must be like this wherever he goes. Others can't tell you, you must know for yourself. Sammaditthi, Right View, must be there. The practice must be like this for every one of us. To do the real practice like this for even one month out of five or ten rains retreats would be rare. Our sense organs must be constantly working. Know content and discontent, be aware of like and dislike. Know appearance and know transcendence. The Apparent and the Transcendent must be realized simultaneously. Good and evil must be seen as co-existent, arising together. This is the fruit of the Dhamma practice. So whatever is useful to yourself and to others, whatever practice benefits both yourself and others, is called "following the Buddha." I've talked about this often. The things which should be done, people seem to neglect. For example, the work in the monastery, the standards of practice and so on. I've talked about them often and yet people don't seem to put their hearts into it. Some don't know, some are lazy and can't be bothered, some are simply scattered and confused. But that's a cause for wisdom to arise. If we go to places where none of these things arise, what would we see? Take food, for instance. If food doesn't have any taste is it delicious? If a person is deaf will he hear anything? If you don't perceive anything will you have anything to contemplate? If there are no problems will there be anything to solve? Think of the practice in this way. Once I went to live up north. At that time I was living with many monks, all of them elderly but newly ordained, with only two or three rains retreat. At the time I had ten rains. Living with those old monks I decided to perform the various duties -- receiving their bowls, washing their robes, emptying their spittoons and so on. I didn't think in terms of doing it for any particular individual, I simply maintained my practice. If others didn't do the duties I'd do them myself. I saw it as a good opportunity for me to gain merit. It made me feel good and gave me a sense of satisfaction. On the uposatha [52] days I knew the required duties. I'd go and clean out the uposatha hall and set out water for washing and drinking. The others didn't know anything about the duties, they just watched. I didn't criticize them, because they didn't know. I did the duties myself, and having done them I felt pleased with myself, I had inspiration and a lot of energy in my practice. Whenever I could do something in the monastery, whether in my own kuti or others," if it was dirty, I'd clean up. I didn't do it for anyone in particular, I didn't do it to impress anyone, I simply did it to maintain a good practice. Cleaning a kuti or dwelling place is just like cleaning rubbish out of your own mind. Now this is something all of you should bear in mind. You don't have to worry about harmony, it will automatically be there. Live together with Dhamma, with peace and restraint, train your mind to be like this and no problems will arise. If there is heavy work to be done everybody helps out and in no long time the work is done, it gets taken care of quite easily. That's the best way. I have come across some other types, though...although I used it as an opportunity to grow. For instance, living in a big monastery, the monks and novices may agree among themselves to wash robes on a certain day. I'd go and boil up the jackfruit wood. [53] Now there'd be some monks who'd wait for someone else to boil up the jackfruit wood and then come along and wash their robes, take them back to their kutis, hang them out and then take a nap. They didn't have to set up the fire, didn't have to clean up afterwards...they thought they were on a good thing, that they were being clever. This is the height of stupidity. These people are just increasing their own stupidity because they don't do anything, they leave all the work up to others. They wait till everything is ready then come along and make use of it, it's easy for them. This is just adding to one's foolishness. Those actions serve no useful purpose whatsoever to them. Some people think foolishly like this. They shirk the required duties and think that this is being clever, but it is actually very foolish. If we have that sort of attitude we won't last. Therefore, whether speaking, eating or doing anything whatsoever, reflect on yourself. You may want to live comfortably, eat comfortably, sleep comfortably and so on, but you can't. What have we come here for? If we regularly reflect on this we will be heedful, we won't forget, we will be constantly alert. Being alert like this you will put forth effort in all postures. If you don't put forth effort things go quite differently...Sitting, you sit like you're in the town, walking, you walk like you're in the town...you just want to go and play around in the town with the laypeople. If there is no effort in the practice the mind will tend in that direction. You don't oppose and resist your mind, you just allow it to waft along the wind of your moods. This is called following one's moods. Like a child, if we indulge all its wants will it be a good child? If the parents indulge all their child's wishes is that good? Even if they do indulge it somewhat at first, by the time it can speak they may start to occasionally spank it because they're afraid it'll end up stupid. The training of our mind must be like this. You have to know yourself and how to train yourself. If you don't know how to train your own mind, waiting around expecting someone else to train it for you, you'll end up in trouble. So don't think that you can't practice in this place. Practice has no limits. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you can always practice. Even while sweeping the monastery grounds or seeing a beam of sunlight, you can realize the Dhamma. But you must have sati at hand. Why so? Because you can realize the Dhamma at any time at all, in any place, if you ardently meditate. Don't be heedless. Be watchful, be alert. While walking on almsround there are all sorts of feelings arising, and it's all good Dhamma. When you get back to the monastery and are eating your food there's plenty of good Dhamma for you to look into. If you have constant effort all these things will be objects for contemplation, there will be wisdom, you will see the dhamma. This is called dhamma-vicaya, reflecting on Dhamma. It's one of the enlightenment factors. [54] If there is sati, recollection, there will be dhamma-vicaya as a result. These are factors of enlightenment. If we have recollection then we won't simply take it easy, there will also be inquiry into Dhamma. These things become factors for realizing the Dhamma. If we have reached this stage then our practice will know neither day or night, it will continue on regardless of the time of day. There will be nothing to taint the practice, or if there is we will immediately know it. Let there be dhamma-vicaya within our minds constantly, looking into Dhamma. If our practice has entered the flow the mind will tend to be like this. It won't go off after other things..."I think I'll go for a trip over there, or perhaps this other place...over in that province should be interesting..." That's the way of the world. Not long and the practice will die. So resolve yourselves. It's not just by sitting with your eyes closed that you develop wisdom. Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are constantly with us, so be constantly alert. Study constantly. Seeing trees or animals can all be occasions for study. Bring it all inwards. See clearly within your own heart. If some sensation makes impact on the heart, witness it clearly for yourself, don't simply disregard it. Take a simple comparison: baking bricks. have you ever seen a brick-baking oven? They build the fire up about two or three feet in front of the oven, then the smoke all gets drawn into it. Looking at this illustration you can more clearly understand the practice. Making a brick kiln in the right way you have to make the fire so that all the smoke gets drawn inside, none is left over. All the heat goes into the oven, and the job gets done quickly. We Dhamma practicers should experience things in this way. all our feelings will be drawn inwards to be turned into Right View. Seeing sights, hearing sounds, smelling odors, tasting flavors and so on, the mind draws them all inward to be converted into Right View. Those feelings thus become experiences which give rise to wisdom. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Not Sure!" -- The Standard of the Noble Ones There was once a western monk, a student of mine. Whenever he saw Thai monks and novices disrobing he would say, "Oh, what a shame! Why do they do that? Why do so many of the Thai monks and novices disrobe?" He was shocked. He would get saddened at the disrobing of the Thai monks and novices, because he had only just come into contact with Buddhism. He was inspired, he was resolute. Going forth as a monk was the only thing to do, he thought he'd never disrobe. Whoever disrobed was a fool. He'd see the Thais taking on the robes at the beginning of the Rains Retreat as monks and novices and then disrobing at the end of it..."Oh, how sad! I feel so sorry for those Thai monks and novices. How could they do such a thing?" Well, as time went by some of the western monks began to disrobe, so he came to see it as something not so important after all. At first, when he had just begun to practice, he was excited about it. He thought that it was really important thing, to become a monk. He thought it would be easy. When people are inspired it all seems to be so right and good. There's nothing there to gauge their feelings by, so they go ahead and decide for themselves. But they don't really know what practice is. Those who do know will have a thoroughly firm foundation within their hearts -- but even so they don't need to advertise it. As for myself, when I was first ordained I didn't actually do much practice, but I had a lot of faith. I don't know why, maybe it was there from birth. The monks and novices who went forth together with me, come the end of the Rains, all disrobed. I thought to myself, "Eh? What is it with these people?" However, I didn't dare say anything to them because I wasn't yet sure of my own feelings, I was too stirred up. But within me I felt that they were all foolish. "It's difficult to go forth, easy to disrobe. These guys don't have much merit, they think that the way of the world is more useful than the way of Dhamma." I thought like this but I didn't say anything, I just watched my own mind. I'd see the monks who'd gone forth with me disrobing one after the other. Sometimes they'd dress up and come back to the monastery to show off. I'd see them and think they were crazy, but they thought they looked snappy. When you disrobe you have to do this and that...I'd think to myself that that way of thinking was wrong. I wouldn't say it, though, because I myself was still an uncertain quantity. I still wasn't sure how long my faith would last. When my friends had all disrobed I dropped all concern, there was nobody left to concern myself with. I picked up the Patimokkha [55] and got stuck into learning that. There was nobody left to distract me and waste my time, so I put my heart into the practice. Still I didn't say anything because I felt that to practice all one's life, maybe seventy, eighty or even ninety years, and to keep up a persistent effort, without slackening up or losing one's resolve, seemed like an extremely difficult thing to do. Those who went forth would go forth, those who disrobed would disrobe. I'd just watch it all. I didn't concern myself whether they stayed or went. I'd watch my friends leave, but the feeling I had within me was that these people didn't see clearly. That western monk probably thought like that. he'd see people become monks for only one Rains Retreat, and get upset. Later on he reached a stage we call...bored; bored with the Holy Life. He let go of the practice and eventually disrobed. "Why are you disrobing? Before, when you saw the Thai monks disrobing you'd say, 'Oh, what a shame! How sad, how pitiful.' Now, when you yourself want to disrobe, why don't you feel sorry now?" He didn't answer. He just grinned sheepishly. When it comes to the training of the mind it isn't easy to find a good standard if you haven't yet developed a "witness" within yourself. In most external matters we can rely on others for feedback, there are standards and precedents. But when it comes to using the Dhamma as a standard...do we have the Dhamma yet? Are we thinking rightly or not? And even if it's right, do we know how to let go of rightness or are we still clinging to it? You must contemplate until you reach the point where you let go, this is the important thing...until you reach the point where there isn't anything left, where there is neither good nor bad. You throw it off. This means you throw out everything. If it's all gone then there's no remainder; if there's some remainder then it's not all gone. So in regard to this training of the mind, sometimes we may say it's easy. it's easy to say, but it's hard to do, very hard. It's hard in that it doesn't conform to our desires. Sometimes it seems almost as if the angels [56] were helping us out. Everything goes right, whatever we think or say seems to be just right. Then we go and attach to that rightness and before long we go wrong and it all turns bad. This is where it's difficult. We don't have a standard to gauge things by. People who have a lot of faith, who are endowed with confidence and belief but are lacking in wisdom, may be very good at samadhi but they may not have much insight. They see only one side of everything, and simply follow that. They don't reflect. This is blind faith. In Buddhism we call this Saddha adhimokkha, blind faith. They have faith all right but it's not born of wisdom. But they don't see this at the time, they believe they have wisdom, so they don't see where they are wrong. Therefore they teach about the Five Powers (Bala): Saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, pańńa. Saddha is conviction; viriya is diligent effort; sati is recollection; samadhi is fixedness of mind; pańńa is all-embracing knowledge. Don't say that pańńa is simply knowledge -- pańńa is all-embracing, consummate knowledge. The wise have given these five steps to us so that we can link them, firstly as an object of study, then as a gauge to compare to the state of our practice as it is. For example, saddha, conviction. Do we have conviction, have we developed it yet? Viriya: do we have diligent effort or not? Is our effort right or is it wrong? We must consider this. Everybody has some sort of effort, but does our effort contain wisdom or not? Sati is the same. Even a cat has sati. When it sees a mouse, sati is there. The cat's eyes stare fixedly at the mouse. This is the sati of a cat. Everybody has sati, animals have it, delinquents have it, sages have it. Samadhi, fixedness of mind -- everybody has this as well. A cat has it when its mind is fixed on grabbing the mouse and eating it. It has fixed intent. That sati of the cat's is sati of a sort; samadhi, fixed intent on what it is doing, is also there. Pańńa, knowledge, like that of human beings. It knows as an animal knows, it has enough knowledge to catch mice for food. These five things are called powers. Have these Five Powers arisen from Right View, sammaditthi, or not? Saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, pańńa -- have these arisen from Right View? What is Right View? What is our standard for gauging Right View? We must clearly understand this. Right View is the understanding that all these things are uncertain. Therefore the Buddha and all the Noble Ones don't hold fast to them. They hold, but not fast. They don't let that holding become an identity. The holding which doesn't lead to becoming is that which isn't tainted with desire. Without seeking to become this or that there is simply the practice itself. When you hold on to a particular thing is there enjoyment, or is there displeasure? If there is pleasure, do you hold on to that pleasure? If there is dislike, do you hold on to that dislike? Some views can be used as principles for gauging our practice more accurately. Such as knowing such views as that one is better than others, or equal to others, or more foolish than others, as all wrong views. We may feel these things but we also know them with wisdom, that they simply arise and cease. Seeing that we are better than others is not right; seeing that we are equal to others is not right; seeing that we are inferior to others is not right. The right view is the one that cuts through all of this. So where do we go to? If we think we are better than others, pride arises. It's there but we don't see it. If we think we are equal to others, we fail to show respect and humility at the proper times. If we think we are inferior to others we get depressed, thinking we are inferior, born under a bad sign and so on. We are still clinging to the Five Khandhas, [57] it's all simply becoming and birth. This is one standard for gauging ourselves by. Another one is: if we encounter a pleasant experience we feel happy, if we encounter a bad experience we are unhappy. Are we able to look at both the things we like and the things we dislike as having equal value? Measure yourself against this standard. In our everyday lives, in the various experiences we encounter, if we hear something which we like, does our mood change? If we encounter an experience which isn't to our liking, does our mood change? Or is the mind unmoved? Looking right here we have a gauge. Just know yourself, this is your witness. Don't make decisions on the strength of your desires. Desires can puff us up into thinking we are something which we're not. We must be very circumspect. There are so many angles and aspects to consider, but the right way is not to follow your desires, but the Truth. We should know both the good and the bad, and when we know them to let go of them. If we don't let go we are still there, we still "exist," we still "have." If we still "are" then there is a remainder, there are becoming and birth in store. Therefore the Buddha said to judge only yourself, don't judge others, no matter how good or evil they may be. The Buddha merely points out the way, saying "The truth is like this." Now, is our mind like that or not? For instance, suppose a monk took some things belonging to another monk, then that other monk accused him, "You stole my things." "I didn't steal them, I only took them." So we ask a third monk to adjudicate. How should he decide? He would have to ask the offending monk to appear before the convened Sangha. "Yes, I took it, but I didn't steal it." Or in regard to other rules, such as parajika or sanghadisesa offenses: "Yes, I did it, but I didn't have intention." How can you believe that? It's tricky. If you can't believe it, all you can do is leave the onus with the doer, it rests on him. But you should know that we can't hide the things that arise in our minds. You can't cover them up, either the wrongs or the good actions. Whether actions are good or evil, you can't dismiss them simply by ignoring them, because these things tend to reveal themselves. They conceal themselves, they reveal themselves, they exist in and of themselves. They are all automatic. This is how things work. Don't try to guess at or speculate about these things. As long as there is still avijja (unknowing) they are not finished with. The Chief Privy Councilor once asked me, "Luang Por, is the mind of an anagami [58] pure yet?" "It's partly pure." "Eh? An anagami has given up sensual desire, how is his mind not yet pure?" "He may have let go of sensual desire, but there is still something remaining, isn't there? There is still avijja. If there is still something left then there is still something left. It's like the bhikkhus' alms bowls. There are "a large-size large bowl; a medium-sized large bowl, a small-sized large bowl; then a large-sized medium bowl, a medium-sized medium bowl, a small-sized medium bowl; then there are a large-sized small bowl, a medium-sized small bowl and a small-sized small bowl...No matter how small it is there is still a bowl there, right? That's how it is with this...sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami... they have all given up certain defilements, but only to their respective levels. Whatever still remains, those Noble Ones don't see. If they could they would all be arahants. They still can't see all. Avijja is that which doesn't see. If the mind of the anagami was completely straightened out he wouldn't be an anagami, he would be fully accomplished. But there is still something remaining. "Is his mind purified?" "Well, it is somewhat, but not 100%." How else could I answer? He said that later on he would come and question me about it further. He can look into it, the standard is there. Don't be careless. Be alert. The Lord Buddha exhorted us to be alert. In regards to this training of the heart, I've had my moments of temptation too, you know. I've often been tempted to try many things but they've always seemed like they're going astray of the path. It's really just a sort of swaggering in one's mind, a sort of conceit. Ditthi, views, and mana, pride, are there. It's hard enough just to be aware of these two things. There was once a man who wanted to become a monk here. He carried in his robes, determined to become a monk in memory of his late mother. He came into the monastery, laid down his robes, and without so much as paying respects to the monks, started walking meditation right in front of the main hall...back and forth, back and forth, like he was really going to show his stuff. I thought, "Oh, so there are people around like this, too!" This is called saddha adhimokkha -- blind faith. He must have determined to get enlightened before sundown or something, he thought it would be so easy. He didn't look at anybody else, just put his head down and walked as if his life depended on it. I just let him carry on, but I thought, "Oh, man, you think it's that easy or something?" In the end I don't know how long he stayed, I don't even think he ordained. As soon as the mind thinks of something we send it out, send it out every time. We don't realize that it's simply the habitual proliferation of the mind. It disguises itself as wisdom and waffles off into minute detail. This mental proliferation seems very clever, if we didn't know we would mistake it for wisdom. But when it comes to the crunch it's not the real thing. When suffering arises where is that so-called wisdom then? Is it of any use? It's only proliferation after all. So stay with the Buddha. As I've said before many times, in our practice we must turn inwards and find the Buddha. Where is the Buddha? The Buddha is still alive to this very day, go in and find him. Where is he? At aniccam, go in and find him there, go and bow to him: aniccam, uncertainty. You can stop right there for starters. If the mind tries to tell you, "I'm a sotapanna now," go and bow to the sotapanna. He'll tell you himself, "It's all uncertain." If you meet a sakadagami go and pay respects to him. When he sees you he'll simply say "Not a sure thing!" If there is an anagami go and bow to him. He'll tell you only one thing..."Uncertain." If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him, he'll tell you even more firmly, "It's all even more uncertain!" You'll hear the words of the Noble Ones..."Everything is uncertain, don't cling to anything." Don't just look at the Buddha like a simpleton. Don't cling to things, holding fast to them without letting go. Look at things as functions of the Apparent and then send them on to Transcendence. That's how you must be. There must be Appearance and there must be Transcendence. So I say "Go to the Buddha." Where is the Buddha? The Buddha is the Dhamma. All the teachings in this world can be contained in this one teaching: aniccam. Think about it. I've searched for over forty years as a monk and this is all I could find. That and patient endurance. This is how to approach the Buddha's teaching... aniccam: it's all uncertain. No matter how sure the mind wants to be, just tell it "Not sure!." Whenever the mind wants to grab on to something as a sure thing, just say, "It's not sure, it's transient." Just ram it down with this. Using the Dhamma of the Buddha it all comes down to this. It's not that it's merely a momentary phenomenon. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you see everything in that way. Whether liking arises or dislike arises you see it all in the same way. This is getting close to the Buddha, close to the Dhamma. Now I feel that this is more valuable way to practice. All my practice from the early days up to the present time has been like this. I didn't actually rely on the scriptures, but then I didn't disregard them either. I didn't rely on a teacher but then I didn't exactly "go it alone." My practice was all "neither this nor that." Frankly it's a matter of "finishing off," that is, practicing to the finish by taking up the practice and then seeing it to completion, seeing the Apparent and also the Transcendent. I've already spoken of this, but some of you may be interested to hear it again: if you practice consistently and consider things thoroughly, you will eventually reach this point...At first you hurry to go forward, hurry to come back, and hurry to stop. You continue to practice like this until you reach the point where it seems that going forward is not it, coming back is not it, and stopping is not it either! It's finished. This is the finish. Don't expect anything more than this, it finishes right here. Khinasavo -- one who is completed. He doesn't go forward, doesn't retreat and doesn't stop. There's no stopping, no going forward and no coming back. It's finished. Consider this, realize it clearly in your own mind. Right there you will find that there is really nothing at all. Whether this is old or new to you depends on you, on your wisdom and discernment. One who has no wisdom or discernment won't be able to figure it out. Just take a look at trees, like mango or jackfruit trees. If they grow up in a clump, one tree may get bigger first and then the others will bend away, growing outwards from that bigger one. Why does this happen? Who tells them to do that? This is Nature. Nature contains both the good and the bad, the right and the wrong. It can either incline to the right or incline to the wrong. If we plant any kind of trees at all close together, the trees which mature later will branch away from the bigger tree. How does this happen? Who determines it thus? This is Nature, or Dhamma. Likewise, tanha, desire, leads us to suffering. Now, if we contemplate it, it will lead us out of desire, we will outgrow tanha. By investigating tanha we will shake it up, making it gradually lighter and lighter until it's all gone. The same as the trees: does anybody order them to grow the way they do? They can't talk or move around and yet they know how to grow away from obstacles. Wherever it's cramped and crowded and growing will be difficult, they bend outwards. Right here is Dhamma, we don't have to look at a whole lot. One who is astute will see the Dhamma in this. Trees by nature don't know anything, they act on natural laws, yet they do know enough to grow away from danger, to incline towards a suitable place. Reflective people are like this. We go forth into the homeless life because we want to transcend suffering. What is it that make us suffer? If we follow the trail inwards we will find out. That which we like and that which we don't like are suffering. If they are suffering then don't go so close to them. Do you want to fall in love with conditions or hate them?...they're all uncertain. When we incline towards the Buddha all this comes to an end. Don't forget this. And patient endurance. Just these two are enough. If you have this sort of understanding this is very good. Actually in my own practice I didn't have a teacher to give as much teachings as all of you get from me. I didn't have many teachers. I ordained in an ordinary village temple and lived in village temples for quite a few years. In my mind I conceived the desire to practice, I wanted to be proficient, I wanted to train. There wasn't anybody giving any teaching in those monasteries but the inspiration to practice arose. I traveled and I looked around. I had ears so I listened, I had eyes so I looked. Whatever I heard people say, I'd tell myself, "Not sure." Whatever I saw, I told myself, "Not sure," or when the tongue contacted sweet, sour, salty, pleasant or unpleasant flavors, or feelings of comfort or pain arose in the body, I'd tell myself, "This is not a sure thing"! And so I lived with Dhamma. In truth it's all uncertain, but our desires want things to be certain. what can we do? We must be patient. The most important thing is khanti, patient endurance. Don't throw out the Buddha, what I call "uncertainty" -- don't throw that away. Sometimes I'd go to see old religious sites with ancient monastic buildings, designed by architects, built by craftsmen. In some places they would be cracked. Maybe one of my friends would remark, "Such a shame, isn't it? It's cracked." I'd answer, "If that weren't the case then there'd be no such thing as the Buddha, there'd be no Dhamma. It's cracked like this because it's perfectly in line with the Buddha's teaching." Really down inside I was also sad to see those buildings cracked but I'd throw off my sentimentality and try to say something which would be of use to my friends, and to myself. Even though I also felt that it was a pity, still I tended towards the Dhamma. "If it wasn't cracked like that there wouldn't be any Buddha!" I'd say it really heavy for the benefit of my friends...or perhaps they weren't listening, but still I was listening. This is a way of considering things which is very, very useful. For instance, say someone were to rush in and say, "Luang Por! Do you know what so and so just said about you?" or, "He said such and such about you..." Maybe you even start to rage. As soon as you hear words of criticism you start getting these moods every step of the way. As soon as we hear words like this we may start getting ready to retaliate, but on looking into the truth of the matter we may find that...no, they had said something else after all. And so it's another case of "uncertainty." So why should we rush in and believe things? Why should we put our trust so much in what others say? Whatever we hear we should take note, be patient, look into the matter carefully...stay straight. It's not that whatever pops into our heads we write it all down as some sort of truth. Any speech which ignores uncertainty is not the speech of a sage. Remember this. As for being wise, we are no longer practicing. Whatever we see or hear, be it pleasant or sorrowful, just say "This is not sure!" Say it heavy to yourself, hold it all down with this. Don't build those things up into major issues, just keep them all down to this one. This point is the important one. This is the point where defilements die. Practicers shouldn't dismiss it. If you disregard this point you can expect only suffering, expect only mistakes. If you don't make this a foundation for your practice you are going to go wrong...but then you will come right again later on, because this principle is a really good one. Actually the real Dhamma, the gist of what I have been saying today, isn't so mysterious. Whatever you experience is simply form, simply feeling, simply perception, simply volition, and simply consciousness. There are only these basic qualities, where is there any certainty within them? If we come to understand the true nature of things like this, lust, infatuation and attachment fade away. why do they fade away? Because we understand, we know. We shift from ignorance to understanding. Understanding is born from ignorance, knowing is born from unknowing, purity is born from defilement. It works like this. Not discarding aniccam, the Buddha -- This is what it means to say that the Buddha is still alive. To stay that the Buddha has passed into Nibbana is not necessarily true. In a more profound sense the Buddha is still alive. It's much like how we define the word "bhikkhu." If we define it as "one who asks," [59] the meaning is very broad. We can define it this way, but to use this definition too much is not so good -- we don't know when to stop asking! If we were to define this word in a more profound way we would say: "Bhikkhu -- one who sees the danger of Samsara." Isn't this more profound? It doesn't go in the same direction as the previous definition, it runs much deeper. The practice of Dhamma is like this. If you don't fully understand it, it becomes something else again. It becomes priceless, it becomes a source of peace. When we have sati we are close to the Dhamma. If we have sati we will see aniccam, the transience of all things. We will see the Buddha and transcend the suffering of samsara, if not now then sometime in the future. If we throw away the attribute of the Noble Ones, the Buddha or the Dhamma, our practice will become barren and fruitless. We must maintain our practice constantly, whether we are working or sitting or simply lying down. When the eye sees form, the ear hears sound, the nose smells an odor, the tongue tastes a flavor or the body experiences sensation...in all things, don't throw away the Buddha, don't stray from the Buddha. This is to be one who has come close to the Buddha, who reveres the Buddha constantly. We have ceremonies for revering the Buddha, such as chanting in the morning Araham Samma Sambuddho Bhagava... This is one way of revering the Buddha but it's not revering the Buddha in such a profound way as I've described here. It's the same as with that word "bhikkhu." If we define it as "one who asks" then they keep on asking...because it's defined like that. To define it in the best way we should say "Bhikkhu -- one who sees the danger of samsara." Now revering the Buddha is the same. Revering the Buddha by merely reciting Pali phrases as a ceremony in the mornings and evenings is comparable to defining the word "bhikkhu" as "one who asks." If we incline towards annicam, dukkham and anatta [60] whenever the eye sees form, the ear hears sound, the nose smells an odor, the tongue tastes a flavor, the body experiences sensation or the mind cognizes mental impressions, at all times, this is comparable to defining the word "bhikkhu" as "one who sees the danger of samsara." It's so much more profound, cuts through so many things. If we understand this teaching we will grow in wisdom and understanding. This is called patipada. Develop this attitude in the practice and you will be on the right path. If you think and reflect in this way, even though you may be far from your teacher you will still be close to him. If you live close to the teacher physically but your mind has not yet met him you will spend your time either looking for his faults or adulating him. If he does something which suits you, you say he's no good -- and that's as far as your practice goes. You won't achieve anything by wasting your time looking at someone else. But if you understand this teaching you can become a Noble One in the present moment. That's why this year [61] I've distanced myself from my disciples, both old and new, and not given much teaching: so that you can all look into things for yourselves as much as possible. For the newer monks I've already laid down the schedule and rules of the monastery, such as: "don't talk too much." Don't transgress the existing standards, the path to realization, fruition and nibbana. Anyone who transgresses these standards is not a real practicer, not one who has with a pure intention to practice. What can such a person ever hope to see? Even if he slept near me every day he wouldn't see me. Even if he slept near the Buddha he wouldn't see the Buddha, if he didn't practice. So knowing the Dhamma or seeing the Dhamma depends on practice. Have confidence, purify your own heart. If all the monks in this monastery put awareness into their respective minds we wouldn't have to reprimand or praise anybody. We wouldn't have to be suspicious of or favor anybody. If anger or dislike arise just leave them at the mind, but see them clearly! Keep on looking at those things. As long as there is still something there it means we still have to dig and grind away right there. Some say "I can't cut it, I can't do it," -- if we start saying things like this there will only be a bunch of punks here, because nobody cuts at their own defilements. You must try. If you can't yet cut it, dig in deeper. Dig at the defilements, uproot them. Dig them out even if they seem hard and fast. The Dhamma is not something to be reached by following your desires. Your mind may be one way, the truth another. You must watch up front and keep a lookout behind as well. That's why I say, "It's all uncertain, all transient." This truth of uncertainty, this short and simple truth, at the same time so profound and faultless, people tend to ignore. They tend to see things differently. Don't cling to goodness, don't cling to badness. These are attributes of the world. We are practicing to be free of the world, so bring these things to an end. The Buddha taught to lay them down, to give them up, because they only cause suffering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Transcendence When the group of five ascetics [62] abandoned the Buddha, he saw it as a stroke of luck, because he would be able to continue his practice unhindered. With the five ascetics living with him, things weren't so peaceful, he had responsibilities. And now the five ascetics had abandoned him because they felt that he had slackened his practice and reverted to indulgence. Previously he had been intent on his ascetic practices and self-mortification. In regards to eating, sleeping and so on, he had tormented himself severely, but it came to a point where, looking into it honestly, he saw that such practices just weren't working. It was simply a matter of views, practicing out of pride and clinging. He had mistaken worldly values and mistaken himself for the truth. For example if one decides to throw oneself into ascetic practices with the intention of gaining praise -- this kind of practice is all "world-inspired," practicing for adulation and fame. Practicing with this kind of intention is called "mistaking worldly ways for truth." Another way to practice is "to mistake one's own views for truth." You only believe yourself, in your own practice. No matter what others say you stick to your own preferences. You don't carefully consider the practice. this is called "mistaking oneself for truth." Whether you take the world or take yourself to be truth, it's all simply blind attachment. The Buddha saw this, and saw that there was no "adhering to the Dhamma," practicing for the truth. So his practice had been fruitless, he still hadn't given up defilements. Then he turned around and reconsidered all the work he had put into practice right from the beginning in terms of results. What were the results of all that practice? Looking deeply into it he saw that it just wasn't right. It was full of conceit, and full of the world. There was no dhamma, no insight into anatta (not self) no emptiness or letting go. There may have been letting go of a kind, but it was the kind that still hadn't let go. Looking carefully at the situation, the Buddha saw that even if he were to explain these things to the five ascetics they wouldn't be able to understand. It wasn't something he could easily convey to them, because those ascetics were still firmly entrenched in the old way of practice and seeing things. The Buddha saw that you could practice like that until your dying day, maybe even starve to death, and achieve nothing, because such practice is inspired by worldly values and by pride. Considering deeply, he saw the right practice, samma patipada: the mind is the mind, the body is the body. The body isn't desire or defilement. Even if you were to destroy the body you wouldn't destroy defilements. That's not their source. Even fasting and going without sleep until the body was a shrivelled-up wraith wouldn't exhaust the defilements. But the belief that defilements could be dispelled in that way, the teaching of self-mortification, was deeply ingrained into the five ascetics. The Buddha then began to take more food, eating as normal, practicing in a more natural way. When the five ascetics saw the change in the Buddha's practice they figured that he had given up and reverted to sensual indulgence. One person's understanding was shifting to a higher level, transcending appearances, while the other saw that that person's view was sliding downwards, reverting to comfort. Self-mortification was deeply ingrained into the minds of the five ascetics because the Buddha had previously taught and practiced like that. Now he saw the fault in it. By seeing the fault in it clearly, he was able to let it go. When the five ascetics saw the Buddha doing this they left him, feeling that he was practicing wrongly and that they would no longer follow him. Just as birds abandon a tree which no longer offers sufficient shade, or fish leave a pool of water that is too small, too dirty or not cool, just so did the five ascetics abandon the Buddha. So now the Buddha concentrated on contemplating the Dhamma. He ate more comfortably and lived more naturally. He let the mind be simply the mind, the body simply the body. He didn't force his practice in excess, just enough to loosen the grip of greed, aversion, and delusion. Previously he had walked the two extremes: kamasukhallikanuyogo -- if happiness or love arose he would be aroused and attach to them. He would identify with them and wouldn't let go. If he encountered pleasantness he would stick to that, if he encountered suffering he would stick to that. These two extremes he called kamasukhallikanuyogo and attakilamathanuyogo. The Buddha had been stuck on conditions. He saw clearly that these two ways are not the way for a samana. Clinging to happiness, clinging to suffering: a samana is not like this. To cling to those things is not the way. Clinging to those things he was stuck in the views of self and the world. If he were to flounder in these two ways he would never become one who clearly knew the world. He would be constantly running from one extreme to the other. Now the Buddha fixed his attention on the mind itself and concerned himself with training that. All facets of nature proceed according to their supporting conditions, they aren't any problem in themselves. For instance, illnesses in the body. The body experiences pain, sickness, fever and colds and so on. These all naturally occur. Actually people worry about their bodies too much. That they worry about and cling to their bodies so much is because of wrong view, they can't let go. Look at this hall here. We build the hall and say it's ours, but lizards come and live here, rats and geckoes come and live here, and we are always driving them away, because we see that the hall belongs to us, not the rats and lizards. It's the same with illnesses in the body. We take this body to be our home, something that really belongs to us. If we happen to get a headache or stomach-ache we get upset, we don't want the pain and suffering. These legs are "our legs," we don't want them to hurt, these arms are "our arms," we don't want anything to go wrong with it. We've got to cure all pains and illnesses at all costs. This is where we are fooled and stray from the truth. We are simply visitors to this body. Just like this hall here, it's not really ours. We are simply temporary tenants, like the rats, lizards and geckoes...but we don't know this. This body is the same. Actually the Buddha taught that there is no abiding self within this body but we go and grasp on to it as being our self, as really being "us" and "them." When the body changes we don't want it to do so. No matter how much we are told we don't understand. If I say it straight you get even more fooled. "This isn't yourself," I say, and you go even more astray, you get even more confused and your practice just reinforces the self. So most people don't really see the self. One who sees the self is one who sees that "this is neither the self nor belonging to self." He sees the self as it is in Nature. Seeing the self through the power of clinging is not real seeing. Clinging interferes with the whole business. It's not easy to realize this body as it is because upadana clings fast to it all. Therefore it is said that we must investigate to clearly know with wisdom. This means to investigate the sankhara [63] according to their true nature. Use wisdom. To know the true nature of sankhara is wisdom. If you don't know the true nature of sankhara you are at odds with them, always resisting them. Now, it is better to let go of the sankhara or to try to oppose or resist them. And yet we plead with them to comply with our wishes. We look for all sorts of means to organize them or "make a deal" with them. If the body gets sick and is in pain we don't want it to be, so we look for various Suttas to chant, such as Bojjhango, the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, the Anattalakkhanasutta and so on. We don't want the body to be in pain, we want to protect it, control it. These Suttas become some form of mystical ceremony, getting us even more entangled in clinging. This is because they chant them in order to ward off illness, to prolong life and so on. Actually the Buddha gave us these teachings in order to see clearly but we end up chanting them to increase our delusion. Rupam aniccam, vedana anicca, sańńa anicca, sankhara anicca, vińńanam aniccam... [64] We don't chant these words for increasing our delusion. They are recollections to help us know the truth of the body, so that we can let it go and give up our longing. This is called chanting to cut things down, but we tend to chant in order to extend them all, or if we feel they're too long we try chanting to shorten them, to force nature to conform to our wishes. It's all delusion. All the people sitting there in the hall are deluded, every one of them. The ones chanting are deluded, the ones listening are deluded, they're all deluded! All they can think is "How can we avoid suffering?" Where are they ever going to practice? Whenever illnesses arise, those who know see nothing strange about it. Getting born into this world entails experiencing illness. However, even the Buddha and the Noble Ones, contracting illness in the course of things, would also, in the course of things, treat it with medicine. For them it was simply a matter of correcting the elements. They didn't blindly cling to the body or grasp at mystic ceremonies and such. They treated illnesses with Right View, they didn't treat them with delusion. "If it heals, it heals, if it doesn't then it doesn't" -- that's how they saw things. They say that nowadays Buddhism in Thailand is thriving, but it looks to me like it's sunk almost as far as it can go. The Dhamma Halls are full of attentive ears, but they're attending wrongly. Even the senior members of the community are like this, so everybody just leads each other into more delusion. One who sees this will know that the true practice is almost opposite from where most people are going, the two sides can barely understand each other. How are those people going to transcend suffering? They have chants for realizing the truth but they turn around and use them to increase their delusion. They turn their backs on the right path. One goes eastward, the other goes west -- how are they ever going to meet? They're not even close to each other. If you have looked into this you will see that this is the case. Most people are lost. But how can you tell them? Everything has become rites and rituals and mystic ceremonies. they chant but they chant with foolishness, they don't chant with wisdom. They study, but they study with foolishness, not with wisdom. They know, but they know foolishly, not with wisdom. So they end up going with foolishness, living with foolishness, knowing with foolishness. That's how it is. And teaching...all they do these days is teach people to be stupid. They say they're teaching people to be clever, giving them knowledge, but when you look at it in terms of truth, you see that they're really teaching people to go astray and grasp at deceptions. The real foundation of the teaching is in order to see atta, the self, as being empty, having no fixed identity. It's void of intrinsic being. But people come to the study of Dhamma to increase their self-view, so they don't want to experience suffering or difficulty. They want everything to be cozy. They may want to transcend suffering, but if there is still a self how can they ever do so? Just consider...Suppose we came to possess a very expensive object. The minute that thing comes into our possession our mind changes..."Now, where can I keep it? If I leave it there somebody might steal it"...We worry ourselves into a state, trying to find a place to keep it. And when did the mind change? It changed the minute we obtained that object -- suffering arose right then. No matter where we leave that object we can't relax, so we're left with trouble. Whether sitting, walking, or lying down, we are lost in worry. This is suffering. And when did it arise? It arose as soon as we understood that we had obtained something, that's where the suffering lies. Before we had that object there was no suffering. It hadn't yet arisen because there wasn't yet an object for it to cling to. Atta, the self, is the same. if we think in terms of "my self," then everything around us becomes "mine." Confusion follows. Why so? The cause of it all is that there is a self, we don't peel off the apparent in order to see the Transcendent. You see, the self is only an appearance. You have to peel away the appearances in order to see the heart of the matter, which is Transcendence. Upturn the apparent to find the Transcendent. You could compare it to unthreshed rice. Can unthreshed rice be eaten? Sure it can, but you must thresh it first. Get rid of the husks and you will find the grain inside. Now if we don't thresh the husks we won't find the grain. Like a dog sleeping on the pile of unthreshed grain. Its stomach is rumbling "jork-jork-jork," but all it can do is lie there, thinking "Where can I get something to eat?" When it's hungry it bounds off the pile of rice grain and runs off looking for scraps of food. Even though it's sleeping right in top of a pile of food it knows nothing of it. Why? It can't see the rice. Dogs can't eat unthreshed rice. The food is there but the dog can't eat it. We may have learning but if we don't practice accordingly we still don't really know, just as oblivious as the dog sleeping on the pile of rice grain. It's sleeping on a pile of food but it knows nothing of it. When it gets hungry it's got to jump off and go trotting around elsewhere for food. It's a shame, isn't it? Now this is the same: there is rice grain but what is hiding it? The husk hides the grain, so the dog can't eat it. And there is the Transcendent. What hides it? The Apparent conceals the Transcendent, making people simply "sit on top of the pile of rice, unable to eat it," unable to practice, unable to see the Transcendent. And so they simply get stuck in appearances time and again. If you are stuck in appearances suffering is in store, you will be beset by becoming, birth, old age, sickness and death. So there isn't anything else blocking people off, they are blocked right here. People who study the Dhamma without penetrating to its true meaning are just like the dog on the pile of unthreshed rice who doesn't know the rice. He might even starve and still find nothing to eat. A dog can't eat unthreshed rice, it doesn't even know there is food there. After a long time without food it may even die...on top of that pile of rice! People are like this. No matter how much we study the Dhamma of the Buddha we won't see it if we don't practice. If we don't see it then we don't know it. Don't go thinking that by learning a lot and knowing a lot you'll know the Buddha Dhamma. That's like saying you've seen everything there is to see just because you've got eyes, or that you've got ears. You may see but you don't see fully. You see only with the "outer eye," not with the "inner eye'; you hear with the "outer ear," not with the "inner ear." If you upturn the apparent and reveal the Transcendent you will reach the truth and see clearly. You will uproot the Apparent and uproot clinging. But this is like some sort of sweet fruit: even though the fruit is sweet we must rely on contact with and experience of that fruit before we will know what the taste is like. Now that fruit, even though no-one tastes it, is sweet all the same. But nobody knows of it. The Dhamma of the Buddha is like this. Even though it's the truth it isn't true for those who don't really know it. No matter how excellent or fine it may be it is worthless to them. So why do people grab after suffering? Who in this world wants to inflict suffering on themselves? No-one, of course. Nobody wants suffering and yet people keep creating the causes of suffering, just as if they were wandering around looking for suffering. Within their hearts people are looking for happiness, they don't want suffering. Then why is it that this mind of ours creates so much suffering? Just seeing this much is enough. We don't like suffering and yet why do we create suffering for ourselves? It's easy to see...it can only be because we don't know suffering, don't know the end of suffering. That's why people behave the way they do. How could they not suffer when they continue to behave in this way? These people have micchaditthi [65] but they don't see that it's micchaditthi. Whatever we say, believe in or do which results in suffering is all wrong view. If it wasn't wrong view it wouldn't result in suffering. We couldn't cling to suffering, nor to happiness or to any condition at all. We would leave things be their natural way, like a flowing stream of water. We don't have to dam it up, just let it flow along its natural course. The flow of Dhamma is like this, but the flow of the ignorant mind tries to resist the Dhamma in the form of wrong view. And yet it flies off everywhere else, seeing wrong view, that is, suffering is there because of wrong view -- this people don't see. This is worth looking into. Whenever we have wrong view we will experience suffering. If we don't experience it in the present it will manifest later on. People go astray right here. What is blocking them off? The Apparent blocks off the Transcendent, preventing people from seeing things clearly. People study, they learn, they practice, but they practice with ignorance, just like a person who's lost his bearings. He walks to the west but thinks he's walking east, or walks to the north thinking he's walking south. This is how far people have gone astray. This kind of practice is really only the dregs of practice, in fact it's a disaster. It's disaster because they turn around and go in the opposite direction, they fall from the objective of true Dhamma practice. This state of affairs causes suffering and yet people think that doing this, memorizing that, studying such-and-such will be a cause for the cessation of suffering. Just like a person who wants a lot of things. He tries to amass as much as possible, thinking if he gets enough his suffering will abate. This is how people think, but their thinking is astray of the true path, just like one person going northward, another going southward, and yet believing they're going the same way. Most people are still stuck in the mass of suffering, still wandering in samsara, just because they think like this. If illness or pain arise, all they can do is wonder how they can get rid of it. They want it to stop as fast as possible, they've got to cure it all costs. They don't consider that this is the normal way of sankhara. Nobody thinks like this. The body changes and people can't endure it, they can't accept it, they've got to get rid of it at all costs. However, in the end they can't win, they can't beat the truth. It all collapses. This is something people don't want to look at, they continually reinforce their wrong view. Practicing to realize the Dhamma is the most excellent of things. Why did the Buddha develop all the Perfections? [66] So that he could realize this and enable others to see the Dhamma, know the Dhamma, practice the Dhamma and be the Dhamma -- so that they could let go and not be burdened. "Don't cling to things." Or to put it another way: "Hold, but don't hold fast." This is also right. If we see something we pick it up..."Oh, it's this"...then we lay it down. We see something else, pick it up...one holds, but not fast. Hold it just long enough to consider it, to know it, then to let it go. If you hold without letting go, carry without laying down the burden, then you are going to be heavy. If you pick something up and carry it for a while, then when it gets heavy you should lay it down, throw it off. Don't make suffering for yourself. This we should know as the cause of suffering. If we know the cause of suffering, suffering cannot arise. For either happiness or suffering to arise there must be the atta, the self. There must be the "I" and "mine," there must be this appearance. If when all these things arise the mind goes straight to the Transcendent, it removes the appearances. It removes the delight, the aversion and the clinging from those things. Just as when something that we value gets lost...when we find it again our worries disappear. Even before we see that object our worries may be relieved. At first we think it's lost and suffer over it, but there comes a day when we suddenly remember, "Oh, that's right! I put it over there, now I remember!" As soon as we remember this, as soon as we see the truth, even if we haven't laid eyes on that object, we feel happy. This is called "seeing within," seeing with the mind's eye, not seeing with the outer eye. If we see with the mind's eye then even though we haven't laid eyes on that object we are already relieved. This is the same, When we cultivate Dhamma practice and attain the Dhamma, see the Dhamma, then whenever we encounter a problem we solve the problem instantly, right then and there. It disappears completely, laid down, released. Now the Buddha wanted us to contact the Dhamma, but people only contact the words, the books and the scriptures. This is contacting that which is about Dhamma, not contacting the actual Dhamma as taught by our Great Teacher. How can people say they are practicing well and properly? They are a long way off. The Buddha was known as lokavidu, having clearly realized the world. Right now we see the world all right, but not clearly. The more we know the darker the world becomes, because our knowledge is murky, it's not clear knowledge. It's faulty. This is called "knowing through darkness," lacking in light and radiance. People are only stuck here but it's no trifling matter. It's important. Most people want goodness and happiness but they just don't know what the causes for that goodness and happiness are. Whatever it may be, if we haven't yet seen the harm of it we can't give it up. No matter how bad it may be, we still can't give it up if we haven't truly seen the harm of it. However, if we really see the harm of something beyond a doubt then we can let it go. As soon as we see the harm of something, and the benefit of giving it up, there's an immediate change. Why is it we are still unattained, still cannot let go? It's because we still don't see the harm clearly, our knowledge is faulty, it's dark. that's why we can't let go. If we knew clearly like the Lord Buddha or the arahant disciples we would surely let go, our problems would dissolve completely with no difficulty at all. When your ears hear sound, then let them do their job. When your eyes perform their function with forms, then let them do so. When your nose works with smells, let it do its job. When your body experiences sensations, then let it perform its natural functions where will problems arise? There are no problems. In the same way, all those things which belong to the Apparent, leave them with the Apparent. And acknowledge that which is the Transcendent. Simply be the "One Who Knows," knowing without fixation, knowing and letting things be their natural way. All things are just as they are. All our belongings, does anybody really own them? Does our father own them, or our mother, or our relatives? Nobody really gets anything. That's why the Buddha said to let all those things be, let them go. Know them clearly. Know then by holding, but not fast. Use things in a way that is beneficial, not in a harmful way by holding fast to them until suffering arises. To know Dhamma you must know in this way. That is, to know in such a way as to transcend suffering. This sort of knowledge is important. Knowing about how to make things, to use tools, knowing all the various sciences of the world and so on, all have their place, but they are not the supreme knowledge. The Dhamma must be known as I've explained it here. You don't have to know a whole lot, just this much is enough for the Dhamma practicer -- to know and then let go. It's not that you have to die before you can transcend suffering, you know. You transcend suffering in this very life because you know how to solve problems. You know the apparent, you know the Transcendent. Do it in this lifetime, while you are here practicing. You won't find it anywhere else. Don't cling to things. Hold, but don't cling. You may wonder, "Why does the Ajahn keep saying this?" How could I teach otherwise, how could I say otherwise, when the truth is just as I've said it? Even though it's the truth don't hold fast to even that! If you cling to it blindly it becomes a falsehood. Like a dog...try grabbing its leg. If you don't let go the dog will spin around and bite you. Just try it out. All animals behave like this. If you don't let go it's got no choice but to bite. The Apparent is the same. We live in accordance with conventions, they are here for our convenience in this life, but they are not things to be clung to so hard that they cause suffering. Just let things pass. Whenever we feel that we are definitely right, so much so that we refuse to open up to anything or anybody else, right there we are wrong. It becomes wrong view. When suffering arises, where does it arise from? The cause is wrong view, the fruit of that being suffering. If it was right view it wouldn't cause suffering. So I say, "Allow space, don't cling to things." "Right" is just another supposition, just let it pass. "Wrong" is another apparent condition, just let it be that. If you feel you are right and yet others contend the issue, don't argue, just let it go. As soon as you know, let go. This is the straight way. Usually it's not like this. People don't often give in to each other. That's why some people, even Dhamma practicers who still don't know themselves, may say things that are utter foolishness and yet think they're being wise. They may say something that's so stupid that others can't even bear to listen and yet they think they are being cleverer than others. Other people can't even listen to it and yet they think they are smart, that they are right. They are simply advertising their own stupidity. That's why the wise say, "Whatever speech disregards aniccam is not the speech of a wise person, it's the speech of a fool. It's deluded speech. it's the speech of one who doesn't know that suffering is going to arise right there." For example, suppose you had decided to go to Bangkok tomorrow and someone were to ask, "Are you going to Bangkok tomorrow?" "I hope to go to Bangkok. If there are no obstacles I'll probably go." This is called speaking with the Dhamma in mind, speaking with aniccam in mind, taking into account the truth, the transient, uncertain nature of the world. You don't say, "Yes, I'm definitely going tomorrow." If it turns out you don't go what are you going to do, send news to all the people who told you were going to? You'd be just talking non-sense. There's still much more to it, the practice of Dhamma becomes more and more refined. But if you don't see it you may think you are speaking right even when you are speaking wrongly and straying from the true nature of things with every word. And yet you may think you are speaking the truth. To put it simply: anything that we say or do that causes suffering to arise should be known as micchaditthi. It's delusion and foolishness. Most practicers don't reflect in this way. Whatever they like they think is right and they just go on believing themselves. For instance, they may receive some gift or title, be it an object, rank or even words of praise, and they think it's good. They take it as some sort of permanent condition. So they get puffed up with pride and conceit, they don't consider, "Who am I? Where is this so-called "goodness"? Where did it come from? Do others have the same things?" The Buddha taught that we should conduct ourselves normally. If we don't dig in, chew over and look into this point it means it's still sunk within us. It means these conditions are still buried within our hearts -- we are still sunk in wealth, rank and praise. So we become someone else because of them. We think we are better than before, that we are something special and so all sorts of confusion arises. Actually, in truth there isn't anything to human beings. Whatever we may be it's only in the realm of appearances. If we take away the apparent and see the Transcendent we see that there isn't anything there. There are simply the universal characteristics -- birth in the beginning, change in the middle and cessation in the end. This is all there is. If we see that all things are like this then no problems arise. If we understand this we will have contentment and peace. Where trouble arises is when we think like the five ascetic disciples of the Buddha. They followed the instruction of their teacher, but when he changed his practice they couldn't understand what he thought or knew. They decided that the Buddha had given up his practice and reverted to indulgence. If we were in that position we'd probably think the same thing and there'd be no way to correct it. Holding on to the old ways, thinking in the lower way, yet believing it's higher. We'd see the Buddha and think he'd given up the practice and reverted to indulgence, just like he'd given up the practice and reverted to indulgence, just like those Five Ascetics: consider how many years they had been practicing at that time, and yet they still went astray, they still weren't proficient. So I say to practice and also to look at the results of your practice. Especially where you refuse to follow, where there is friction. Where there is no friction, there is no problem, things flow. If there is friction, they don't flow, you set up a self and things become solid, like a mass of clinging. There is no give and take. Most monks and cultivators tend to be like this. However they've thought in the past they continue to think. They refuse to change, they don't reflect. They think they are right so they can't be wrong, but actually "wrongness" is buried within "rightness," even though most people don't know that. How is it so? "This is right"...but if someone else says it's not right you won't give in, you've got to argue. What is this? Ditthi mana... Ditthi means views, mana is the attachment to those views. If we attach even to what is right, refusing to concede to anybody, then it becomes wrong. To cling fast to rightness is simply the arising of self, there is no letting go. This is a point which gives people a lot of trouble, except for those Dhamma practicers who know that this matter, this point, is a very important one. they will take not of it. If it arises while they're speaking, clinging comes racing on to the scene. Maybe it will linger for some time, perhaps one or two days, three or four months, a year or two. This is for the slow ones, that is. For the quick response is instant...they just let go. Clinging arises and immediately there is letting go, they force the mind to let go right then and there. You must see these two functions operating. Here there is clinging. Now who is the one who resists that clinging? Whenever you experience a mental impression you should observe these two functions operating. There is clinging, and there is one who prohibits the clinging. Now just watch these two things. Maybe you will cling for a long time before you let go. Reflecting and constantly practicing like this, clinging gets lighter, becomes less and less. Right view increases as wrong view gradually wanes. Clinging decreases, non-clinging arises. This is the way it is for everybody. That's why I say to consider this point. Learn to solve problems in the present moment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Notes 1. That is, the Buddha. [Go back] 2. The Triple Gem: The Buddha, the Dhamma, His teaching, and the Sangha, the Monastic Order, or those who have realized the Dhamma. [Go back] 3. Sati: Usually translated into English as mindfulness, recollection is the more accurate translation of the Thai words, "ra-luk dai." [Go back] 4. Bhavana -- means "development" or "cultivation"; but is usually used to refer to cittabhavana, mind-development, or pańńa-bhavana, wisdom-development, or contemplation. [Go back] 5. "Vinaya" is a generic name given to the code of discipline of the Buddhist Monastic Order, the rules of the monkhood. "Vinaya" literally means "leading out," because maintenance of these rules "leads out" of unskillful actions, and, by extension, unskillful states of mind; in addition it can be said to "lead out" of the household life, and, by extension, attachment to the world. [Go back] 6. This refers to the Venerable Ajahn's early years in the monkhood, before he had begun to practice in earnest. [Go back] 7. The second sanghadisesa offense, which deals with touching a woman with lustful intentions. [Go back] 8. Referring to pacittiya offense No. 36, for eating food outside of the allowed time -- dawn till noon. [Go back] 9. Dukkata -- offenses of "wrong-doing," the lightest class of offenses in the Vinaya, of which there are a great number; parajika -- offenses of defeat, of which there are four, are the most serious, involving expulsion from the Bhikkhu-Sangha. [Go back] 10. Venerable Ajahn Mun Bhuridatto, probably the most renowned and highly respected Meditation Master from the forest tradition in Thailand. He had many disciples who have been teachers in their own right, of whom Ajahn Chah is one. Venerable Ajahn Mun died in 1949. [Go back] 11. Pubbasikkha Vannana -- "The Elementary Training" -- a Thai Commentary on Dhamma-Vinaya based on the Pali Commentaries; the Visuddhimagga -- "Path to Purity" -- Acariya Buddhagosa's exhaustive commentary on Dhamma-Vinaya. [Go back] 12. Hiri -- sense of shame; Ottappa -- fear of wrong-doing. Hiri and ottappa are positive states of mind which lay a foundation for clear conscience and moral integrity. Their arising is based on a respect for oneself and for others. Restraint is natural because of a clear perception of cause and effect. [Go back] 13. Apatti: the name to the offenses of various classes for a Buddhist monk. [Go back] 14. Maha: a title given to monks who have studied Pali and completed up to the fourth year or higher. [Go back] 15. A "receiving cloth" is a cloth used by Thai monks for receiving things from women, from whom they do not receive things directly. That Venerable Ajahn Pow lifted his hand from the receiving cloth indicated that he was not actually receiving the money. [Go back] 16. There are very precise and detailed regulations governing the ordination procedure which, if not adhered to, may render the ordination invalid. [Go back] 17. The Vinaya forbids bhikkhus from eating raw meat or fish. [Go back] 18. Although it is an offense for monks to accept money, there are many who do. Some may accept it while appearing not to, which is probably how the laypeople in this instance saw the Venerable Ajahn's refusal to accept money, by thinking that he actually would accept it if they didn't overtly offer it to him, but just slipped it into his bag. [Go back] 19. Ańjali -- The traditional way of making greeting or showing respect, as with an Indian Namaste or the Thai wai. Sadhu -- "It is well" -- a way of showing appreciation or agreement. [Go back] 20. Another transgression of the precepts, a pacittiya offense. [Go back] 21. Navakovada -- A simplified synopsis of elementary Dhamma-Vinaya. [Go back] 22. Many monks undertake written examinations of their scriptural knowledge, sometimes -- as Ajahn Chah points out -- to the detriment of their application of the teachings in daily life. [Go back] 23. Indulgence in sense pleasures, indulgence in comfort. [Go back] 24. Kuti -- a bhikkhu's dwelling place, a hut. [Go back] 25. The cycle of conditioned existence, the world of delusion. [Go back] 26. Samana: a religious seeker living a renunciant life. Originating from the Sanskrit term for "one who strives," the word signifies someone who has made a profound commitment to spiritual practice. [Go back] 27. One of the many branch monasteries of Ajahn Chah's main monastery, Wat Ba Pong. [Go back] 28. Concept (sammutti) refers to supposed or provisional reality, while transcendence (vimutti) refers to the liberation from attachment to or delusion within it. [Go back] 29. Mara: the Buddhist personification of evil, the Tempter, that force which opposes any attempts to develop goodness and virtue. [Go back] 30. The play on words here between the Thai "phadtibut" (practice) and "wibut" (disaster) is lost in the English. [Go back] 31. These are the two extremes pointed out as wrong paths by the Buddha in his First Discourse. They are normally rendered as "Indulgence in sense pleasures" and "Self mortification." [Go back] 32. "Pa-kow: an eight-precept postulant, who often lives with bhikkhus and, in addition to his own meditation practice, also helps them with certain services which bhikkhus are forbidden by the Vinaya from doing. [Go back] 33. The level of nothingness, one of the "formless absorptions," sometimes called the seventh "jhana," or absorption. [Go back] 34. Bimba, or Princess Yasodhara, the Buddha's former wife; Rahula, his son. [Go back] 35. Rupa -- material or physical objects; nama -- immaterial or mental objects -- the physical and mental constituents of being. [Go back] 36. Nibbana -- the state of liberation from all conditioned states. [Go back] 37. The Thai word for bhava -- "pop" -- would have been a familiar term to Ajahn Chah's audience. It is generally understood to mean "Sphere of rebirth." Ajahn Chah's usage of the word here is somewhat unconventional, emphasizing a more practical application of the term. [Go back] 38. Both the red ants and their eggs are used for food in North East Thailand, so that such raids on their nests were not so unusual. [Go back] 39. The first line of the traditional Pali words of homage to the Buddha, recited before giving a formal Dhamma talk. Evam is the traditional Pali word for ending a talk. [Go back] 40. Glot -- the Thai "dhutanga" or forest-dwelling monks' large umbrella from which, suspended from a tree, they hang a mosquito net in which to stay while in the forest. [Go back] 41. The body on the first night had been that of a child. [Go back] 42. The last line of the traditional Pali lines listing the qualities of the Dhamma. [Go back] 43. Mahanikai and Dhammayuttika are the two sects of Theravada sangha in Thailand. [Go back] 44. A Thai expression meaning, "Don't overdo it." [Go back] 45. Thirteen practices allowed by the Buddha over and above the general disciplinary code, for those who which to practice more ascetically. [Go back] 46. Part of a Pali verse, traditionally recited at funeral ceremonies. The meaning of the full verse if, "Alas, transient are all compounded things/Having arisen, they cease/Being born, they die/The cessation of all compounding is true happiness." [Go back] 47. Novices. [Go back] 48. The word dhamma can be used in different ways. In this talk, the Venerable Ajahn refers to Dhamma -- the teachings of the Buddha; to dhammas -- "things"; and to Dhamma -- the experience of transcendent "Truth." [Go back] 49. At that time Sariputta had his first insight into the Dhamma, attaining sotapatti, or "stream-entry." [Go back] 50. That is, nibbida, disinterest in the lures of the sensual world. [Go back] 51. The Truth of Suffering, the Truth of its Cause, the Truth of its Cessation and the Truth of the Way (leading to the cessation of suffering): The Four Noble Truths. [Go back] 52. Observance days, held roughly every fortnight, on which monks confess their offenses and recite the disciplinary precepts, the Patimokkha. [Go back] 53. The heartwood from the jackfruit tree is boiled down and the resulting color used both to dye and to wash the robes of the forest monks. [Go back] 54. Bojjjhanga -- the Seven Factors of Enlightenment: sati, recollection; dhamma-vicaya, inquiry into dhammas; viriya, effort; piti, joy; passadhi, peace; samadhi, concentration; and upekkha, equanimity. [Go back] 55. The central body of the monastic code, which is recited fortnightly in the Pali language. [Go back] 56. Devaputta Mara -- the Mara, or Tempter, which appears in a seemingly benevolent form. [Go back] 57. The Five Khandhas: Form (rupa), feeling (vedana), perception (sańńa), conceptualization or mental formations (sankhara) and sense-consciousness (vińńana). These comprise the psycho-physical experience known as the "self." [Go back] 58. Anagami (non-returner): The third "level" of enlightenment, which is reached on the abandonment of the five "lower fetters" (of a total of ten) which bind the mind to worldly existence. The first two "levels" are sotapanna ("stream-enterer") and sakadagami ("once-returner"), the last being araham ("worthy or accomplished one"). [Go back] 59. That is, one who lives dependent on the generosity of others. [Go back] 60. Transience, Imperfection, and Ownerlessness. [Go back] 61. 2522 of the Buddhist Era, or 1979 CE. [Go back] 62. The pańcavaggiya, or "group of five," who followed the Buddha-to-be (Bodhisatta) when he was cultivating ascetic practices, and who left him when he renounced them for the Middle Way, shortly after which the Bodhisatta attained Supreme Enlightenment. [Go back] 63. Sankhara: conditioned phenomena. The Thai usage of this term usually refers specifically to the body, though sankhara also refers to mental phenomena. [Go back] 64. Form is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermament, volition is impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. [Go back] 65. micchaditthi: Wrong-view. [Go back] 66. The ten paramita (perfections): generosity, morality, renunciation, wisdom, effort, patience, truthfulness, resolution, goodwill and equanimity. [Go back] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: Sun 3 October 1999 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/living.html 1487 From: protectID Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 1:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Dear mike and jonathan, So sorry that I put that section just out of the block..... what I understood was.... (first in the document itself , the warning is there ' this is preached for a group of monks in a forest monastery....') In the preaching what the venerable instructs is how to develop the samadhi, he just goes on simply abandoning the normal labels of ' first jhana, second jhana etc....' he goes on to describe the vitakka and vicara, and what he warns is ' not to be wanting to calm the mind' or do not have a ditthi that 'when calming the mind i should have this type of feeling..etc' What he says is when you 'want' to calm the mind according to your 'own' template,then that will be a pitfall. I tried to attach the full document in a mail, but it didnt work... now I am sending just the reply. rgds gayan protectID on 10/26/2000 05:32:40 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Gayan, Mike I read with interest the quote from Ajahn Chah. It is true that the `same' thoughts do keep arising time and again. What was not immediately clear to me, however, was the purpose of labelling thoughts in this way. Is this perhaps explained elsewhere in the passage? It is always useful to consider what someone says in terms of the teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of thinking is real (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities - they are concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object of awareness or understanding. Mike, I was impressed at your characterisation of the practice as `retrospection'. Not many people would be able to see why this is so. They would see it as catching the present moment, which of course it is not. You mention it as a practice for times when there is no sati. Is there perhaps a sense that if sati is not arising there must be something we can be doing, or that there could be more sati than there is? If so, this might be a hindrance to true sati arising, in that we do not at those moments realise that the right aramana for sati is already present (a reality appearing through any of the 6 doors). At such moments there is no gochara sampajanna. If, on the other hand, we are open to the possibility of sati arising without in any way changing the present moment, then that particular hindrance is absent. Reflection like this can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta even to the level of awareness, either now or in the future. With confidence that this is so, we can have patience towards that desirable object, attainment. This is progress on the path. Jonothan --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Gayan, > > Ajahn Chah's 'Yang mai na' (or something like > that--'not yet sure') is a good example of the way I > looked at things for a long time. This kind of > retrospective reflection seemed/seems to me the only > option if sati doesn't arise strongly or frequently > enough (or at all!)--that is, if the conditions just > arent' there yet for the arising of real awareness of > reality in the present moment. Lately, though, I've > grown very uneasy about this kind of retrospection. > So I'm glad you brought this up and look forward to > the group's responses. > > So glad to continue to see you on this list, sir, > > mn > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I was reading a document on one of ven.Ajahn Chah's > > preachings to a group of > > monks. > > Thought this section might help somebody..., > > > > starts here > > ------------- > > > > Whenever something arises within the mind, whether > > you like it or not, whether > > it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this > > is not a sure thing." > > Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not > > sure." With just this single ax > > you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." > > > > For the duration of this next month that you will be > > staying in this forest > > monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You > > will see the truth. This "not > > sure" is really an important one. This one develops > > wisdom. The more you look > > the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've > > cut something off with "not > > sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. > > Yes, it's truly "not sure." > > Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it > > all..."not sure." You stick the > > sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its > > turn comes, it crops up > > again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will > > see this same old one who's > > been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year > > out, from the day you were > > born. There's only this one who's been fooling you > > all along. See this and > > realize the way things are. > > > > -------------- > > > > ( not-sure-ness might help to see things without > > falling to a ditthi, cos ditthi > > may disguise itself as gnana) > > > > rgds. > > > > > > > > 1488 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 1:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats......... Dear Gayan, I am going to send a letter to Nina van Gorkom with all your information - as I noted before we have no translation of the atthakatha to the netti pakarana in English. In Thai they have no translation of the netti pakarana at all - but the Dhamma study and support foundation (main teacher Sujin Boriharnwanaket) is now translating it and it will be published for free distribution when it is finished. Dear Amara, You might show some of this to Khun Sujin. Do you know General Weera, who is involved with the translation (I think Acharn Somporn is involved also)? Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Dear friends, > > I tried to translate several pages. > > My use of english words are lousy so bear with me. > I have only 40% confidence about the words I use... > 'develops',..'has'....'things' 'people' 'person' 'mind' 'good' > 'bad' > :o( > > > Language and the usage has a Biig part in the inner > development eventhough most > of us dont understand that. > > starts here... > ---------------------------------------------------- > written in > 1947 > > In the preface the venerable says.. > > " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in > netthippakarana atthakatha. > But they are mentioned only namely. > There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas > are not mentioned in > any of them." > > " These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking > towards akusalas. > The akusala dhammas disguise > > themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality. ( > as the mud gets > the shape of the object that > > pressed onto it.)" > > > In the book , the venerable describes the dhammas namely > mentioned in the > atthakatha, and describes more > > dhammas using his knowledge in the abhidhamma. > > First , the ones from the atthakatha... > > > 1. apatikkulasagnamukhena kamacchando vangcethi > > One develops the apatikkula sanna -> Looking at every living > or non-living > object in the same perspective. > Whether the dhathu in his body,in an alien body, rocks , > trees, young body, > decayed body,... start to look the > > same. > He has no disgust in the things that are disgusting to > others.( phlegm,urine > etc...) > They look just collections of dhathus to him. > He will attend to the ones in need of help, without disgusted > of the filth. > > > But Kamacchanda will disguise itself as apatikkulasanna. > One has liking to the praise , profits etc .. gained by > helping people.( But he > knows this kamacchada is a bad > > quality in him) > When theres a person in need , and others do not reach him > beacause of the > patikula things associated with > > helping ., theres a chance that in the former's mind the > kamacchanda will arise > , and he helps the person without > > feeling any disgust. But he thinks that apatikkula sanna has > arose. > It is indeed real hard to distinguish the kusala from the > akusala. > The only catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' is > still there when the > praises and profits are not > > associated with the helping. > > Another occasion is , a person may not feel disgust of the > phlegm,urine etc ( > you know the lot) of another person > > he has some raaga for.The person knows that raaga is 'bad' and > apatikkula sanna > is 'good', he tends to think that > > what he has is the apatikkula sanna. But what he ' gives in'( > and gladly > develops) is none other than > > kamacchanda. > As above the catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' > prevails with > regarding a person who he has no > > raaga for. > > > > 2. patikkulasanna pathirupena vyapado vancethi > > One develops patikkula sanna with regarding to dhathus. ( this > helps to fight > with excessive Raga > Whatever regarded beautiful in the normal sense , appears > filthy to him. > (eg. the glowing teeth of a pretty person will look as melon > seeds glued to the > mouth of an empty clay pot) > > But vyapada will disguise as patikkulasanna. > One knows vyapada is 'bad' and knows tha theres a good thing > called patikkula > sanna. > He will sometimes develop the raw vyapada , thinking that what > he has is > patikkula sanna. [ story of sour > > grapes..] > > so checking is needed. > > > > > to be continued... > > > 1489 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 4:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary The URL for the PTS is- http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Mary, > Welcome to the group. You might try the Pali Text > Society since they have a > fairly good dictionary. Am not sure of their URL so > you can try to search > for them on the web. > > With metta, > Betty > __________________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > protectID> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mary Reinard > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 11:26 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali dictionary > > > > Hello to anyone, > > > > Where might I get a web-pali dictionary. It may > prove useful for my > > struggle to follow these commentaries. > > > > Thanks, > > Mary > > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1490 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 5:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] keeping up! Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" > >Dear Sarah, Robert et al., > >This is a little worrisome. As a 'new guy', I wonder >if there's some way I can mitigate the volume of >mail--maybe be more selective in what 'I' 'choose' >(heh heh) to post? Even if this isn't a serious >problem now, is it not likely to become one in the >future? > Well we could set up a separate list just for particular trouble makers like yourself who ask too many dificult questions!! In the meantime we'll just put up with the volume and worry about the future when we get there! Joking aside, (sorry, I can't match yr great wit), I have to tell you I now find I not only go to sleep reflecting on dhamma, but wake up doing the same. It's a very long time since I had this experience! When I see Jonothan away from the computer (getting to be pretty seldom), we actually spend more time reading and discussing dhamma than we do reading and discussing bills, work problems, house repairs and health issues. We don't even find time for an occasional argument anymore! We're very grateful for ALL the contibuting messages and your oneliners get the prize for giving me the most laughs (a little lobha doesn't hurt TOO much!) Many thanks for your concern, but just keep up the flow. All your comments and questions are excellent. Your appreciation (and of course everyone else's) makes it so very worthwhile! Sarah Alex, I'm having just the same experience as you with regard to keeping up the list, books and book orders etc...maybe we all are! Glad you're having such fun! 1491 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 5:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Selamat, I'd also like to welcome you (belatedly I know) to this list. I'm delighted we can now have some Indonesian contributions and hope others in your group will also join to 'listen' or ask good questions like yourself or give responses and comments to the rest of us. Sometimes we think it can all be worked out intellectually by thinking when really the most useful factor at that time is awareness of thinking as thinking. I remember a period when I would ask khun Sujin a lot of complicated questions and be concerned if I couldn't 'work it all out'. She used to say to me, 'Khun Sarah, you think too much', it's just thinking! This is not meant to be particularly for you Selamat, but just a general comment that a moment of understanding and awareness now of the reality appearing is more precious than all the 'working it out'. Of course none of this means we should try to think less or to stop working it out, but what about the understanding at these times? Please keep up your good questions and comments. Best wishes, Sarah> >Dear all, >I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me the differences >between: >a. chanda and cetana >b. manasikara and sati >And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. > >anumodana, >selamat rodjali > 1492 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Sammaditthi, (right view) Dear group, I thought this passage from the suttas might be worth a glance. "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" 1493 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:41pm Subject: Re: Cheats......... > Do you know General > Weera, who is involved with the translation (I think Acharn > Somporn is involved also)? Dear Robert, If I remember correctly, it is the Mahamongkut who invited Acharn Somporn to translate the Nettipakarana, I doubt Khun Veera had anything to do with it, he is on so many government and charity commitees that he hardly finds time to do anything other than attend board meetings! Just joking, he and his wife spend a lot of time in all the classes they could. He even attended some English discussions some time ago. Could you write a note to Khun Sujin yourself which I could print out and get to her, either here or off-list? By the way my mother said the edition of 'Summary' printed by her with a dedication to my father was the first edition of the final version of the book (the one with the dark green cover) but there was a shorter version before- just to be precise. Amara 1494 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:45pm Subject: Re: Sammaditthi, (right view) Dear Robert, Could you also tell us who said this and a little background? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I thought this passage from the suttas might be worth a glance. > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > springs up. For > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > right effort, > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > right > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > knowledge > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > springs up. > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" > 1496 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sammaditthi, (right view) Dear Amara, sorry I just found this on an old letter. But I will try to dig up some details sometime. By the way have you been reading all the private notes I have been sending you re: address, upacara? Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > Could you also tell us who said this and a little background? > > Thanks in advance, > > Amara > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear group, > > I thought this passage from the suttas might be worth a > glance. > > > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > > indication of the > > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > > indication of > > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. > For > > one of > > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > > speech, right > > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > > springs up. For > > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > > right effort, > > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > > right > > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, > right > > knowledge > > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > > springs up. > > > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" > > 1497 From: SELAMAT Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Sarah, anumodana for your response. I will share info to my friends interested in the subject. muditacittena, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > Dear Selamat, > > I'd also like to welcome you (belatedly I know) to this list. I'm delighted > we can now have some Indonesian contributions and hope others in your group > will also join to 'listen' or ask good questions like yourself or give > responses and comments to the rest of us. > > Sometimes we think it can all be worked out intellectually by thinking when > really the most useful factor at that time is awareness of thinking as > thinking. I remember a period when I would ask khun Sujin a lot of > complicated questions and be concerned if I couldn't 'work it all out'. She > used to say to me, 'Khun Sarah, you think too much', it's just thinking! > > This is not meant to be particularly for you Selamat, but just a general > comment that a moment of understanding and awareness now of the reality > appearing is more precious than all the 'working it out'. > > Of course none of this means we should try to think less or to stop working > it out, but what about the understanding at these times? > > Please keep up your good questions and comments. > > Best wishes, > Sarah> > > > > >Dear all, > >I'm new in your discussion group. Would you please tell me the differences > >between: > >a. chanda and cetana > >b. manasikara and sati > >And in which occasion they are applied in daily life. > > > >anumodana, > >selamat rodjali > > > 1498 From: SELAMAT Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Amara,, anumodana for your detail explanation. Yes, we have to experience these dhammas in our life as they truly are. The experiences are beyond description, aren't they? I share that questions which always arise when we discuss Abhidhamma in theoritical base and our friends want to know the examples in daily life. If we examine your description, the term always play on active side. How are the differences between them (sati, cetana etc) in vipaka citta or kiriya citta (Am sorry that it is again in theoritical base because I need it to bring the example to the dhamma class to our new member's question). muditacittena, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "amara chay" Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:15 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > > > > > when a kusala citta arise in our daily life situation which > contains > > chanda > > > and cetana or manasikara and sati, how do we differentiate chanda > > cetasika > > > from cetana cetasika? Manasikara from sati? or do we only know one > > cetasika > > > in a moment and another cetasika in another moment? > > Dear everyone, > > Sorry for my carelessness mixing up the pairs in my last post! But > the distinct differences remain the same, I should only add the > omitted characteristic of sati as awareness, though! > So: chanda cetasika / cetana cetasika = enjoyment (with or without > lobha or attachment) / intention; > manasikara / sati = attention and inspection / awareness > accompanying kusala. > > Really have to go this time, > > Amara > > > > Dear Selamat, > > > > Because the citta and cetasika arise together so fast and fall away > > so rapidly, it is very difficult to distinguish them at all and > > especially to tell them apart when their special characteristics are > > not strong enough, which is most of the time. We may be easily > > aware of anger (usually after it has already fallen away) or other > > strong feelings, but it is hard to tell especially the annasamana > > cetasika that arise without interruption in daily life, I think. > > The thing is not to worry about the ones whose characteristics has > > not arisen yet, and study those which are before us. All studies > > are simply to show us that there is really no self, just different > > realities. Khun Sujin tells us all the time that we should learn > > and know in order to abandon them (not to assign them special > > importance and thus cling to more things than we already cling to). > > > But since we must know them in order that panna could grow, we must > > realize that there is the understanding of things as they really are > > of the theoretic level, and the experiencing of the realities as > > they are, as the four paramattha dhamma. The five dvara have their > > specific rupa that they can experience correspondingly, and the > > rest, of both nama and rupa, can be experienced only through the > > mind dvara. Even then some knowledge could remain merely > > theoretical, since no one can make them arise at will to be examined > > and tested. And some characteristics are so close that normally > > only the panna of a Buddha could distinguish and describe them, so > > that if they only arise imperceptibly to do a 'universal' function > > we would never know they existed, much less their characteristics. > > But according to his teachings described in the 'Summary of > > Paramatthadhamma' Part V, advanced section, > > as follows > > > > 4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors > > to perform the function according to its kind and the > > sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently at that instant. The > > cetana-cetasika is therefore a kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika > > that arises with vipaka-citta is a sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka > > because it performs the function of cetana that is vipaka > > simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other vipaka-cetasika that > > arise concurrently and then fall away. The cetana-cetasika, which > > is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with kiriya-citta and > > other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a > > sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with > > akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after > > resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or kusala-kamma-patha and > > falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya because it will cause > > vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is not in > > the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana > > performs the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, > > or cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal > > akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana had fallen away, the > > cetana-kamma, which is the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana, > > are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. > > > > 7. Manasikara-cetasika is the cetasika that is attentive, interested > > in the arammana. The interest in the arammana would be paccaya for > > the cetasika to think of the arammana and compose it into > > intricacies, infinite sciences in worldly matters. While in dhamma > > matters, it is > > to the contrary. > > > > *** > > In other words, cetana is setting out to do something (mentally and > > leading to/or not, physically) and manasikara is attention studying > > the aramana. > > > > 6. Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform. It > > arises with 69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 > > moha-mula-citta. This is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise > > without hetu-cetasika simultaneously occurring. As for the > > moha-mula-citta, even with moha-cetasika arising together with them, > > but since they are without concurrent lobha-cetasika or > > dosa-cetasika, they do not have chanda-cetasika arising with them > > because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is pleased with the > > state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta > > that chanda-cetasika is arising with. > > > > > > 2. Sati-cetasika is the cetasika that is mindful of all kusala. > > When the akusala arises each day, sati would not arise to be mindful > > of dana, sila or bhavana. The instant kusala-citta arises and > > evolves in dana, sila or bhavana, the sati would arise and be > > mindful of the distinct kind of kusala. > > > > > > Chanda is to enjoy something. Can hunters enjoy killing or the hunt > > or whatever? Or enjoy the dhamma. > > > > Sati occurs every time the citta is not evolving with lobha, dosa or > > moha of any kind, at that moment it is peaceful from these things > > and therefore kusala, because at those moments there must be alobha, > > adosa or amoha, meaning it must be evolving with dana, sila or > > bhavana. But very weak sati could never be detected, only when > > there has been right understanding accumulated and the study of > > realities as they really are, sight as sight and sound as sound, the > > touch of your fingers on the keyboard or mouse is just what it is, a > > reality that is different that that experienced through the eyes, > > could sati be strong enough to be fleetingly detected, but when > > these tiny instants are accumulated enough, stronger levels could > > arise, with right understanding and knowledge that sati is also > > anatta, uncontrolable and can arise at any time and place, to be > > accumulated for further sati to arise. The aramana of sati with > > right understanding would be paramatthadhamma characteristics then. > > > > I hope our friends will correct me if I made a mistake, > > > > Amara > > > > > 1499 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:31pm Subject: Re: Taking it all in > You say, > "And you still owe us a peek at the 'Buddha'!" > > I say, > OK, OK, OK, Dear Mary, I just love the coloring and everything! Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing more! Somehow your works seem warmer and less formal than the ones I've seen. I've never studied art either but these are great! Thank you again, Amara 1500 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 26, 2000 11:44pm Subject: Re: Sammaditthi, (right view) > By the way have you been reading all the private notes I have > been sending you re: address, upacara? Dear Robert, Sorry, can't find it, when did you send it over? Could you resend? Amara 1501 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 0:31am Subject: Re: differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati > Yes, we have to experience these dhammas in our life as they truly are. The > experiences are beyond description, aren't they? Dear Selamat, Absolutely!! And it's no use trying to describe them precisely, they are completely gone, never to return. At present there are ceaselessly things to be studied, descriptions are just thoughts and words, which if we are not aware of them as such, are long stretches of citta without experiencing the truth. > I share that questions which always arise when we discuss Abhidhamma in > theoritical base and our friends want to know the examples in daily life. > If we examine your description, the term always play on active side. How are > the differences between them (sati, cetana etc) in vipaka citta or kiriya > citta (Am sorry that it is again in theoritical base because I need it to > bring the example to the dhamma class to our new member's question). I will try explain, but please remember my analogies are my imagination which you will probably not come across in any scripture or commentaries or even text books. Please read also some of my previous postings which might help a little, go back to see messages 1098, 1190, 1210, and 1306 first, and tell me what you think. I spent a long time finding the exact letters, I didn't realize we have writen so much this month! Amara 1503 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 0:45am Subject: A bit of sad news Dear all, As you probably noticed O hasn't been participating as much as usual these days, today she said she will be very busy for awhile longer since her mother in law has just passed away yesterday. I hope she is not too tired at the moment, it is probably a very trying period for her, and that she will be able to join us again soon, Amara 1506 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 11:55am Subject: Re: Thanks > "Kim kaira udapaanena > Aapace sabbada siyum?, > thanhaaya mulatho cetwa > kissa pariyesanam chare?" > > When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells? > When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana), > who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ? > (because every satisfaction is there) Dear Gayan, I have a little free time this morning, and hope I will get everyone all frazzled by my incurable curiosity and thirst for detail. Which is why I would probably get executed by any other teacher than Khun Sujin who is an infinite source of answers to my bottomless questions reserves, as well as my trigger happy mind that shoots of in tangents of all directions over little words of dhamma. I hope you will bear with me and try to humor my inquisitive mode (and mood). As I said (or gushed!) at your first posting, I really liked it. A lot. But my Pali isn't very functional, in fact, is it in Pali at all? Or Singhalese? In fact who wrote it? Where is the quote from, because I tend to give less importance to sources outside the Tipitaka, because bad as the translations can be, most of the time one would recognize the Pali shadows, and the reference could be checked with the original Pali (and the really bad translaters roundly reviled! just joking!). As webmaster I would also like to announce a private policy that we welcome all material that has any kind of interpretation of the Tipitaka, to be checked and scrutinized and compared with our studies, before putting on the web. I realize that most sites do not take resposibility for the views expressed there, but as long as I am webmaster I cannot conscionably avoid this, because the dhamma is a very profound and powerful influence on people's lives (it has certainly been in mine!) and not to be trifled with. I think it is also good for the people whose documents might appear there because to consciously mislead people for whatever motive in this supreme matter must have, (as Robert puts it, life as a drivling idiot as a result somewhere in the future! or something to that effect!) some greivious vipaka some where somehow. It's OK for anyone to bring anything up to discuss here among friends, to share joys and frustrations and mysterious passages from all corners of the globe, but the website in my care must carry the stamp of the Tipitaka as much as we can manage, and any unclear questions must be forwarded to the foundation experts, who, although they have no say as to what we put in the site, we highly respect and give their analysis full attention over anyone else's. (At least while Khun Sujin is its head!) Which is also why I keep asking for people to check the site's contents, even if not the myriad background and gadgets, against their knowledge of the Dhamma and the Tipitaka, and if ever there is a mistake, for anything at all even the spellings and links and whatever trivia, this time, to please let us know! I am a very sloppy person but would love to present the perfect thing to the world, so I really need a lot of help! Amara 1507 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 0:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks Dear amara chay, Yes it is Pali, and is from the sutta pitaka. I am sloppy when writing the Pali words in English fonts, I have only an email connection, (no web connection- bandwidth problems)so I cant use realtime spellcheckers which I suspect to be available in the web. Buddha said this to ven.Ananda, While on a journey ven Ananda was asked by the Buddha , to bring some water. But he was able to bring some , only after going through some difficulty, searching for a well............... after that the gatha was told. ( as long as the tanha is there, the being will be 'searching'...) rgds gayan. "amara chay" on 10/27/2000 09:55:53 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks > "Kim kaira udapaanena > Aapace sabbada siyum?, > thanhaaya mulatho cetwa > kissa pariyesanam chare?" > > When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells? > When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana), > who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ? > (because every satisfaction is there) Dear Gayan, I have a little free time this morning, and hope I will get everyone all frazzled by my incurable curiosity and thirst for detail. Which is why I would probably get executed by any other teacher than Khun Sujin who is an infinite source of answers to my bottomless questions reserves, as well as my trigger happy mind that shoots of in tangents of all directions over little words of dhamma. I hope you will bear with me and try to humor my inquisitive mode (and mood). As I said (or gushed!) at your first posting, I really liked it. A lot. But my Pali isn't very functional, in fact, is it in Pali at all? Or Singhalese? In fact who wrote it? Where is the quote from, because I tend to give less importance to sources outside the Tipitaka, because bad as the translations can be, most of the time one would recognize the Pali shadows, and the reference could be checked with the original Pali (and the really bad translaters roundly reviled! just joking!). As webmaster I would also like to announce a private policy that we welcome all material that has any kind of interpretation of the Tipitaka, to be checked and scrutinized and compared with our studies, before putting on the web. I realize that most sites do not take resposibility for the views expressed there, but as long as I am webmaster I cannot conscionably avoid this, because the dhamma is a very profound and powerful influence on people's lives (it has certainly been in mine!) and not to be trifled with. I think it is also good for the people whose documents might appear there because to consciously mislead people for whatever motive in this supreme matter must have, (as Robert puts it, life as a drivling idiot as a result somewhere in the future! or something to that effect!) some greivious vipaka some where somehow. It's OK for anyone to bring anything up to discuss here among friends, to share joys and frustrations and mysterious passages from all corners of the globe, but the website in my care must carry the stamp of the Tipitaka as much as we can manage, and any unclear questions must be forwarded to the foundation experts, who, although they have no say as to what we put in the site, we highly respect and give their analysis full attention over anyone else's. (At least while Khun Sujin is its head!) Which is also why I keep asking for people to check the site's contents, even if not the myriad background and gadgets, against their knowledge of the Dhamma and the Tipitaka, and if ever there is a mistake, for anything at all even the spellings and links and whatever trivia, this time, to please let us know! I am a very sloppy person but would love to present the perfect thing to the world, so I really need a lot of help! Amara 1508 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 1:20pm Subject: Re: Thanks > Yes it is Pali, and is from the sutta pitaka. > Buddha said this to ven.Ananda, > While on a journey ven Ananda was asked by the Buddha , to bring some water. But > he was able to bring some , only after going through some difficulty, searching > for a well............... > > after that the gatha was told. > > ( as long as the tanha is there, the being will be 'searching'...) Dear Gayan, Thank you for the precisions. By the way so you remember the name of the sutta? Like evryone else I am unfamiliar with the 'cheats' (I would have thought of them as disguises myself) you referred to either: > So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a kusala. > These are the cheating dhammas. > The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops kusala but what hes > developing is an akusala. > > An example is vichikiccha(doubt).. > it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and searches about facts. > The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right thing > ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but hes blocked by none other > than the vichikiccha. I don't think that vicikiccha is ordinary doubt, or normal quest for knowledge. I personally translate it as uncertainty, in fact it is very precisely the uncertainty in the dhamma, for example when awareness is just arising and one wonders whether it was the nama or rupa or both that has just fallen away in that split second. Which is why the sotapanna is the level where it would be completely eradicated, everyone of us will have the chance to study its characteristics for a long time still. But none of the five nivarana dhamma could really block satipatthana, because nothing can aarise at all moments, even the obstacles arise and fall away, so there are an infinity of occasions for awareness to operate as well, if the conditions are right. Amara 1509 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 1:40pm Subject: Ch Cheats contd. 3. samadhimukhena thinamiddhang vangcethi When one is trying to concentrate , without moving the body, viriya decreases. ( the tendency of the untrained mind is towards kamaraaga, not towards samadhi ) So thinamiddha arises, the one who mistakes this as samadhi gives in to it . ( so cheated ) 4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand things he thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's cheated by uddhacca. 5. sikkhakamathamukhena kukkuccang vangcethi One who likes for moral restraint has the kusala - sikkhakamatha But when one starts to worry about the things done , thinking whether they were allowed,not-allowed etc will develop the dvesha(dosa) rooted santhapa.Eventually kukkucca., mistaking it for sikkhakamatha. 6. ubhayapakkha santhiranamukhena vicikicchang vangchethi This dhamma is profound, and expands into large areas ie, merits/demerits, kamma, rebirth, world systems, beings, jhanas etc... This is initially 'too much' for an untrained mind, limited mind. ( to see the micro-organisms use of a microscope is needed, cant do it with the naked eye) So there are more things to develop mentally and physically. One feels that ' I have to know all the reasons, all the scenarios, all the logic,...then I'll start going along the noble path' ... he mistakes this for the kusala dhamma ubhayapakkha santhirana, but its none other than the vicikiccha. His development stops, he starts to worry about things that will not lead to progress. vicikiccha ( in true appearence or in disguise) is unavoidable and a great obstacle. Beings have to develop more and more saddha to fight with and find out vicikiccha. (saddha indriya) to be continued. 1510 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 1:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks Dear Amara , Sure, I will get you the name. I am at office now, when I go home I'll search for the sutta. :o) vicikiccha - amara, this also includes doubt(uncertainty) in the precepts and noble path(s) also, rgds gayan. "amara chay" on 10/27/2000 11:20:59 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks > Yes it is Pali, and is from the sutta pitaka. > Buddha said this to ven.Ananda, > While on a journey ven Ananda was asked by the Buddha , to bring some water. But > he was able to bring some , only after going through some difficulty, searching > for a well............... > > after that the gatha was told. > > ( as long as the tanha is there, the being will be 'searching'...) Dear Gayan, Thank you for the precisions. By the way so you remember the name of the sutta? Like evryone else I am unfamiliar with the 'cheats' (I would have thought of them as disguises myself) you referred to either: > So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a kusala. > These are the cheating dhammas. > The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops kusala but what hes > developing is an akusala. > > An example is vichikiccha(doubt).. > it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and searches about facts. > The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right thing > ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but hes blocked by none other > than the vichikiccha. I don't think that vicikiccha is ordinary doubt, or normal quest for knowledge. I personally translate it as uncertainty, in fact it is very precisely the uncertainty in the dhamma, for example when awareness is just arising and one wonders whether it was the nama or rupa or both that has just fallen away in that split second. Which is why the sotapanna is the level where it would be completely eradicated, everyone of us will have the chance to study its characteristics for a long time still. But none of the five nivarana dhamma could really block satipatthana, because nothing can aarise at all moments, even the obstacles arise and fall away, so there are an infinity of occasions for awareness to operate as well, if the conditions are right. Amara 1511 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 1:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch ---Dear gayan, thanks again for this. I can recognise much of the pali although I notice some of your spellings of the pali are not conventional - I guess you are translating direct from the singhalese which doesn't use the roman alphabet. not to worry the meaning is mostly clear. Are not all these cheating dhammas very daily life - I know I have many, if not all, often. Robert protectID wrote: > > Cheats contd. > 3. samadhimukhena thinamiddhang vangcethi > > When one is trying to concentrate , without moving the body, > viriya decreases. > ( the tendency of the untrained mind is towards kamaraaga, not > towards samadhi ) > So thinamiddha arises, the one who mistakes this as samadhi > gives in to it . ( > so cheated ) > > 4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi > > One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand > things > he thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's > cheated by uddhacca. > 1512 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 1:57pm Subject: Re: Ch > Cheats contd. Dear Gayan, I am way behind, I am still looking at the part when you said (/quoted?): > another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' > it cheats as 'panna' > but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without seeing the drawbacks > for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or trying to act like no > offence is done ..etc.. In the Tipitaka, panna is no ordinary facility to comprehend and devise plans/acquire or retain worldly knowledge, but the understanding of the dhamma, of things as they really are, beginning with nama as nama and rupa as rupa. It has nothing to do with the above. What do you think? Amara 1513 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 2:01pm Subject: Re: Thanks > Dear Amara , > > Sure, I will get you the name. > I am at office now, when I go home I'll search for the sutta. > > :o) Dear Gayan, Thanks in advance =^_^= > vicikiccha - amara, this also includes doubt(uncertainty) in the precepts and > noble path(s) also, Gayan, precisely what I said, it is about the dhamma, as I posted earlier: > > I don't think that vicikiccha is ordinary doubt, or normal quest for > knowledge. I personally translate it as uncertainty, in fact it is > very precisely the uncertainty in the dhamma, for example when > awareness is just arising and one wonders whether it was the nama or > rupa or both that has just fallen away in that split second. Which > is why the sotapanna is the level where it would be completely > eradicated, everyone of us will have the chance to study its > characteristics for a long time still. But none of the five > nivarana dhamma could really block satipatthana, because nothing can > aarise at all moments, even the obstacles arise and fall away, so > there are an infinity of occasions for awareness to operate as well, > if the conditions are right. > > Amara 1514 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 2:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch Yes amara, I think that is the point! a person will believe that he is beginning to "get the understanding of the dhamma, of things as they really are, beginning with nama as nama and rupa as rupa." but the kairatika( cunning ) dhammas can cheat that person ( without the person knowing), he will begin to 'form' the nature of nama and rupa according to his misguided mind. he can preach and even give examples , similes according to his ditthi. he will think "wow! I can describe anything......." rgds "amara chay" on 10/27/2000 11:57:10 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch > Cheats contd. Dear Gayan, I am way behind, I am still looking at the part when you said (/quoted?): > another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' > it cheats as 'panna' > but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without seeing the drawbacks > for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or trying to act like no > offence is done ..etc.. In the Tipitaka, panna is no ordinary facility to comprehend and devise plans/acquire or retain worldly knowledge, but the understanding of the dhamma, of things as they really are, beginning with nama as nama and rupa as rupa. It has nothing to do with the above. What do you think? Amara 1515 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 2:22pm Subject: Re: Ch --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Yes amara, > > I think that is the point! Dear Gayan, Point well taken! I was probably confused when you said: > > another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' > > it cheats as 'panna' > > but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without seeing > the drawbacks > > for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or trying > to act like no > > offence is done ..etc.. what you said now is clearer: > a person will believe that he is beginning to "get the > understanding of the dhamma, of things as they really are, beginning > with nama as nama and rupa as rupa." > > but the kairatika( cunning ) dhammas can cheat that person ( without the person > knowing), > > he will begin to 'form' the nature of nama and rupa according to his misguided > mind. > > he can preach and even give examples , similes according to his ditthi. > he will think "wow! I can describe anything......." > > > rgds > Dear Gayan, > > I am way behind, I am still looking at the part when you said > (/quoted?): > > > another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness' > > it cheats as 'panna' > > but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without seeing > the drawbacks > > for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or trying > to act like no > > offence is done ..etc.. > > > In the Tipitaka, panna is no ordinary facility to comprehend and > devise plans/acquire or retain worldly knowledge, but the > understanding of the dhamma, of things as they really are, beginning > with nama as nama and rupa as rupa. It has nothing to do with the > above. > > What do you think? > > Amara 1516 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 2:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch Dear amara,robert The language is a mysterious thing! have you discussed about that in this group? ( if so , I like to read them) It leads to so much proliferation. Robert! thank you for the word 'alien' , ( I saw that , you used it in one of your posts describing 'anatta' ) funny, its just a word , but has an unexpressable efect ( in 'my' anatta sanna ) **** (eye, visual object, eye-conciousness.....etc ------ its not me nor mine, ......etc ------------> alien !!! Wow! rgds 1517 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch Dear Gayan, Yes, language is important and the Abhidhamma theras of old took great pains to define dhammas and even concepts. They knew how easily we misinterpret words; they were so compassionate in giving us many details and describing dhammas in different ways in order to help us. I think you have a copy of realities and Concepts (sujin Boriharnwanaket). On page 37 there is an extract from the Abhidhammthasangaha (ChVIII section 4). Here concepts are grouped into 8 types. In the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (sujin p14. ) concepts are grouped differently into 6 types eg. Vijjamana pannati -concepts that make known what is real such as nama and rupa. Other concepts make known what is not real such person, and there are other concepts also. These different ways of classifying concepts help us to understand various aspects- and we must understand what concept is so as not to mistake concept for reality. Alien is a good word, a strong word, to describe the khandas, the (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) ayatanas (sense fields); they are not "us", there is no "us". Not my panna, not my sati, not my sila, not my calm, not my pain, not my confusion, not me seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking. Thanks for your comments. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear amara,robert > > The language is a mysterious thing! > have you discussed about that in this group? ( if so , I like > to read them) > > It leads to so much proliferation. > > Robert! thank you for the word 'alien' , ( I saw that , you > used it in one of > your posts describing 'anatta' ) > > funny, its just a word , but has an unexpressable efect ( in > 'my' anatta sanna ) > > **** (eye, visual object, eye-conciousness.....etc ------ its > not me nor mine, > ......etc ------------> alien !!! Wow! > > > rgds > > > > > 1518 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 27, 2000 3:56pm Subject: Re: Ch --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear amara,robert > > The language is a mysterious thing! Dear Gayan, Yes it is, isn't it. I will print out your translation for the English discussion group here tomorrow, and will keep in mind the language problem. I think we will be able to find a copy of the 'Netti' that is being revised for printing by the foundation also. Will keep you informed, Amara 1519 From: Mary Reinard Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 1:08am Subject: Re: Ch Hello Robert, Amara, and gayan, Wanted to take this opportunity to barge on in, something feels familar about what gayan is saying here. Gayan wrote: "Robert! thank you for the word 'alien' , ( I saw that , you used it in one of your posts describing 'anatta' ) funny, its just a word , but has an unexpressable efect ( in 'my' anatta sanna ) **** (eye, visual object, eye-conciousness.....etc ------ its not me nor mine, ......etc ------------> alien !!! Wow!" Mary here) Yes, (and I will use conventional phrasing here, 'I', 'mine', 'you' . . . etc.) My present practice is focusing on the place of contact. Won't at this time go into detail about the immediate results, but will share the overarching results as having quite a sense of distance from the 'contact' which does not escape observation. Obvioustly most all the contact does pass on by, however that which is known, seems to fall victim to an everpresent pool of . . . oh how to say this . . . an overall feeling of, 'sameness?' Nothing 'special' about it (it being the contact presently in known manifistation). Having always related to life in a passionate way, this is a bit odd. Here's a living example. In observing the 'seen' object, lets say the chilie I'm making to offer for lunch today, the observable resultant 'feeling' of this site is the same as the 'tasting', which is awareness of contact, but nothing delineating a higher or lower ambition toward. And I have always loved my chilie. So this is an unusual state for myself to observe. Normally I would see the very pretty colors and drawing on that feeling of a rise in happiness I would try to match that feeling when tasting it. How happy can the tasting make me? as happy as the sight? lets give it a try. All my life, I've prided this self because of the passinate nature accessible to 'me'. Now, though still aware of the ability to follow the passion of the site and/or taste, there is a distance to this reaction, thus allowing a 'choice'. A choice to re-act or not to re- act. Observing, or watching these tendicies arise seems to point to a space between the arising and the choice to follow or not to follow. When continuing to observe rather than automatically following automatically, much like a dog and its nose, then resting in the space between contact and reaction gives rise to . . .what? . . . a calm, non reactionary . . . what? I don't know . . . space . . . Alien space . . . Alien to me any way. Now, perhaps I sound absolutely mad to you all, but there you go. I don't know the words well, would like to learn them. What do you think. Holding out any hope for this lump of conditioned senses? Thanks for any input you might so kindly be moved to share. Metta, Mary 1520 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 1:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] keeping up! --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Well we could set up a separate list just for > particular trouble makers like > yourself who ask too many dificult questions!! Right--like the kids' table at family dinners...! > In > the meantime we'll just > put up with the volume and worry about the future > when we get there! OK! Just don't want anyone burning out... > Joking aside, (sorry, I can't match yr great wit), I > have to tell you I now > find I not only go to sleep reflecting on dhamma, > but wake up doing the > same. Same here (or almost)--when I'm home (most of the time), this list is my top priority on waking (before coffee, even!), again when I get home and again before retiring. I usually sneak in a few peeks from work, as well...I've been filling in the in-between times pondering and reading NVG's incredibly good 'Buddhism in Daily Life'. Like Alex, I'm champing at the bit for more reading while I already have more than I can handle. There really are not enough hours in the day... > It's a very long time since I had this > experience! When I see > Jonothan away from the computer (getting to be > pretty seldom), we actually > spend more time reading and discussing dhamma than > we do reading and > discussing bills, work problems, house repairs and > health issues. We don't > even find time for an occasional argument anymore! Excellent! I don't really have anyone handy for discussions (part of what makes the list so valuable), but the daily contacts help to keep my attention oriented, to be sure... > We're very grateful for > ALL the contibuting messages and your oneliners get > the prize for giving me > the most laughs (a little lobha doesn't hurt TOO > much!) Glad to hear it! It would be nice, one day, not to 'need' a few laughs. But in the meantime, it does help to relieve the tension... > Many thanks for your concern, but just keep up the > flow. Will do, and many thanks back at you... mn 1521 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 1:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] keeping up! Right you are, Sarah, from Mike! --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > ....and yes, Mike sounds like a human being, mn > sounds more like an extra > terrestial being which could be a little off-putting > to any newcomers, but > others might like that cosmic-sounding > contribution... > > just my opinion.. > > Sarah > 1522 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 6:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Dear Kom, Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your very thoughtful post: --- protectID wrote: > What are my analysis of sitting/non-sitting (my > opinions, be > careful...): I will! > 1) Based on the experiences I have with different > Buddhist groups in > Thailand, who believe in different things, who claim > their teachers > as being a knowledgeable ones, who generally have > similar comradrie > as "dhamma friends", I have concluded that some of > these people have > to be inaccurate. Which one? I don't know. I used > to analyze it > comparing with what I learn in my education, my life > experience, and > to everyday's life situation. Unfortunately, these > too are > inadaquate. I have become convinced that right > understandings > condition the right knowledge, and therefore, it is > important to > first attain the right understanding. So have I! > Who do you > get the right > understandings from? From the one whose teachings > seem most profound, > most matching with observable realities: the Buddha. Agreed! > 2) Did Buddha specifically teach the development of > Vipassana by > sitting down, by following a set of practices? So > far, my readings > show no such teaching. Knowledeable people (A. > Sujin, A. Santi, > people at the foundation, people in thise group) say > no. Excellent point. Though the Buddha did sometimes describe a monk (approvingly) as going, after alms-round, 'to the foot of a tree or to some secluded place' and meditating (Sarah, I'm sorry I can't offer citations for this vague reference. If you like, I'll try to find some...). This certainly evokes the image of seated meditation. HOWEVER (and I accept this as a working hypothesis, based on advice from some smart people I've met recently), I THINK the practice that's being described in these passages is samatha bhavana, NOT satipatthana vipassana bhavana--a distinction I failed to make for many years! So, unless we think we can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate tranquility (samatha bhavana) or work to eradicate the defilements by cultivating sammasati? > 3) Was I attached to the sitting? Absolutely. Ditto! > Do I > learn more/ > understand more about realities while sitting? > Absolutely not. Absolutely agreed! > 4) There is enough wrong view that I have. Do I > need to add another > one? No. No, indeed! > What would I say to a friend trying to make up his > mind/make decisions > on jumbled set of information that cannot be all > ascertained (in a > worldly situation)? > You can't forever second guess yourself: take the > best set of > information you have and make a decision on it, > knowing that you > may be wrong, and that you will have to correct the > decision. > > What would I say to a dhamma friend trying to make > such a decision? > Intention (cetana) arises with all cittas, and are > particularly > strong in javana cittas as it contributes more than > one kamma > pacaya (sahajata and nanakaniga-kamma). You always > have an intention, > whether you like it or not. There is absolutely > no-self in > poramattha dhamma, even when "you" are thinking > there is "self": the > citta is experiencing "self" as aramana and the self > is unreal. Only > panna knows what is suitable for one, and not the > other; the self > doesn't know, as it is unreal. Panna is > accumulative: as it > understands more and experiences more the realities, > it knows what > dhamma has benefits and what dhamma has bad effects > and therefore, > condition other cittas and cetasikas to arise. How > does panna gets > accumulated? By listening, understanding, and > knowing the realities > as they are. Who's a good source for listening and > helping to > understand realities as they are? The Buddha and > those who teach > his teachings. Right. And if conditions don't happen to allow for direct experience of the arising and subsiding of nama and rupa in the present moment, why not learn as much about them as possible so that we can recognize them when they do arise? > I would say: look for people who teach what Buddha > taught exactly > without adding their own opinion. What the teacher > teaches must be > verifable through the tipitkas. If it cannot be > verified, then it > is not Buddha's teaching, and you know it. Clearly! Kalamasutta, etc... > What "you" and "I" understand and know now will not > be all correct: > you eliminate all micha-dithi only when maggha citta > arises. > Therefore, "your" function (citta, cetasikas, rupa) > is to find > and eliminate all such wrong views. Unless you have > attained, > sotapanna, everyone has a wrong view: it is just a > question of how > many and how gross. Agreed. > I have warned you from the beginning: I don't know > the answer... Thanks for the warning, and for the answers. I don't know the answer either, but I do have a feeling (for what THAT'S worth) that we both might someday... Anumodana, sir... mn 1523 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 6:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Dear Jonothan, Sorry to be so long in replying to this excellent post: --- protectID wrote: > Gayan, Mike > > I read with interest the quote from Ajahn Chah. It > is true that the > `same' thoughts do keep arising time and again. > What was not > immediately clear to me, however, was the purpose of > labelling > thoughts in this way. Is this perhaps explained > elsewhere in the > passage? (I haven't checked yet). > It is always useful to consider what someone says in > terms of the > teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of > thinking is real > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > - they are > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > of awareness or > understanding. This is something I'm not at all clear on. I've been wondering lately whether thoughts were nama or rupa, and discovered this morning that they're neither. From NVG's 'Conditions': "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." I'm somewhat at a loss. Since we seem to live (or 'I' do) pretty much entirely in a welter of concepts, always 'darting among the unreal',...well...'they can't be the object of awareness or understanding'...no wonder sati, not to mention sammasati, is so rare... > You mention it as a practice for times when there is > no sati. Is > there perhaps a sense that if sati is not arising > there must be > something we can be doing, or that there could be > more sati than > there is? > Of course, yes, there is--or was. That's why I said I've grown uneasy about this of late. In fact, I don't think I've done any 'meditation' in the sense in which I (thought I) understood it since discovering this group... > If so, this might be a hindrance to true > sati arising, in > that we do not at those moments realise that the > right aramana for > sati is already present (a reality appearing through > any of the 6 > doors). > This is beyond me at the moment. I'll return to this post after a vocabulary review. > At such moments there is no gochara > sampajanna. If, on the > other hand, we are open to the possibility of sati > arising without in > any way changing the present moment, then that > particular hindrance > is absent. Interesting, and encouraging--I will look into this further. > Reflection like this can be a condition for the > arising of kusala > citta even to the level of awareness, either now or > in the future. > With confidence that this is so, we can have > patience towards that > desirable object, attainment. This is progress on > the path. Do you mean, reflection on 'the possibility of sati arising without in any way changing the present moment'? Thanks yet again, Jonothan... Mike 1524 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 8:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] viriya- effort/energy Dear Sarah, My apologies for the lateness of my reply to your very kind post: --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: There's a lot here that's just over my head, so far. Lots of homework to do yet... > There's a lot more that is interesting and useful. I > agree with Jonothan's > (?) suggestion that whenever we have the idea of > having more viriya (effort) > or good cetana (intention) with regard to the > dhamma, we can be pretty sure > there's an idea of self lurking there! Yes, I'm beginning to get quite a strong (conceptual) sense of this...all these cheats have been regulars at my place for so long that they know ALL the sneaky ways to get in. But at least (thanks to you all) I've grown a little more suspicious of them... > By knowing > more about many realities, > there wil be more understanding of these ones. I certainly hope so! (...or SOMETHING does...) Thanks again, Mike 1525 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 9:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Dear Alex, Sorry I've been so long getting back to you! --- protectID wrote: > I told myself that I'm going to study all of the > materials in > Amara's and Alan's websites, plus all of the > valuable books sent to > me by O and Robert. Guess what? I spent all of my > free time reading > and re-reading the posts in the list. Same here! And I don't regret a minute of it. I just wish there were time to do both... > I even print > some out, so that > I can highlight them, study them, and file them in > my notebook. That's a great idea! Unfortunately, I don't have a printer at home--though I do cheat and use the one at work once in a while (in my defense, I DO try to put in a little extra time off the clock to make up for it...) > And now, I'm going to order more books: > > 1. Metta, loving kindness by Sujin Boriharnwanaket > 2. World in The Buddhist Sense by Nina Van Gorkom. > 3. Cetasikas by NVG. > Then, I'll join the Pali Text Society to get more > ... :-))) I've been glad to belong to the PTS for some time, and have all of their suttapitaka and visuddhimagga. But, you know, I'd say that all of this great material had been wasted on me if it hadn't, somehow, conditioned receptiveness to this group when I finally encountered it. There's so much there! And if no one is around to point out to you the importance of beginning with sammaditthi, even pure gold like this can lead you into BIG trouble. Can't it? It certainly did me... > It looks like I'll have enough books for the rest > of my life with > the way the posts here keep me in the internet! TELL me about it! I've dog-eared the hell out of NVG's skinny little 'BIDL' that o was so kind to send me, and think I could spend a year just re-reading that. I feel a bit like a hungry termite with an entire forest at its disposal... > Or > do we really need > books when we have such an active list, plus the 2 > websites by Amara > and Alan? :-))) An embarrassment of riches... > I'm not complaining because I'm in heavens right > now. :-))) You've said a mouthful, sister--maybe we've both been reborn in the same one! Anumodana, Mike 1526 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 9:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Dear Mike, Jonothon wrote --- "> > It is always useful to consider what someone says in > > terms of the > > teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of > > thinking is real > > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > > - they are > > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > > of awareness or > > understanding." > And you commented "This is something I'm not at all clear on. I've been > wondering lately whether thoughts were nama or rupa, > and discovered this morning that they're neither. > From NVG's 'Conditions':" Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists of different cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. let us consider a couple of thinking. 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not real. 3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now (talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas directly even during the processes of thinking that take concepts for objects. > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. Robert > > 1527 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch Dear mary, Great to see you joining in. Daily life examples are very useful. --- Mary Reinard wrote: > My present practice is focusing on the place of contact. Good. To understand anything we have to study contact; for example seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana) arises only at the place where the sensitive matter in the eye is (cakkhu pasada). When the visible object contacts this special rupa (physical pheonemena)then assuming there is attention seeing consciousness arises. Won't > at > this time go into detail about the immediate results, but will > share > the overarching results as having quite a sense of distance > from > the 'contact' which does not escape observation. Obvioustly > most all > the contact does pass on by, however that which is known, > seems to > fall victim to an everpresent pool of . . . oh how to say > this . . . > an overall feeling of, 'sameness?' Nothing 'special' about it > (it > being the contact presently in known manifistation). Having > always > related to life in a passionate way, this is a bit odd. When there is correct awareness of the various objects arising at the 6doors there is always some level of detachment. This is why it is sometimes called 'guarding the sense doors'. > > Here's a living example. In observing the 'seen' object, lets > say the > chilie I'm making to offer for lunch today, the observable > resultant 'feeling' of this site is the same as the 'tasting', > which > is awareness of contact, but nothing delineating a higher or > lower > ambition toward. And I have always loved my chilie. So this > is an > unusual state for myself to observe. Normally I would see the > very > pretty colors and drawing on that feeling of a rise in > happiness I > would try to match that feeling when tasting it. How happy can > the > tasting make me? as happy as the sight? One aspect of the development of satipatthana is that it is realised that the various doorwys are completely different. Seeing is conditioned by different phenomena than tasting. We are used to thinking about a situation, a whole, a story. For example - the attractive, delicious chilie. The realities are different- merely colours contacting the eyebase conditioning seeing, and taste matter contacting the sensitive matter in the tongue conditioning tasting. And sanna remembers and we form up a story about all this. We live in this world of concept and story all our lives until we hear Dhamma and learn about another world. The development of satipatthana shows us this other world, the world of parammattha dhammas. This is the real world but this world is very temporary- realities, (paramattha dhammas)arise and pass away at blinding speed. It is very difficult to comprehend this world correctly but there is nothing more valuable that we could do. Do you know Plato's story of the cave in the Republic? (see Classics of philosophy page 180} He told the story of beings who were chained facing a wall all their lives. The only thing they could see of the outside world was the shadows that were cast against the cave wall. They could see shapes changing and moving but they couldn't ever see what was actually happening. It is an metaphor showing that we cannot help mistaking the objects of our perceptions for real and independently existing objects when in fact they are passing shadows. The similarities between this and early Buddhist thought are striking; the big difference is that plato did not see a way out of this cave of shadows whereas the Buddha showed us how we can go beyond and see the world of realities. > > All my life, I've prided this self because of the passinate > nature > accessible to 'me'. Now, though still aware of the ability to > follow > the passion of the site and/or taste, there is a distance to > this > reaction, thus allowing a 'choice'. A choice to re-act or not > to re- > act. Observing, or watching these tendicies arise seems to > point to a > space between the arising and the choice to follow or not to > follow. Is there really a choice? Is there a sense that 'I' am following or not following? Is there an idea that 'I' made awareness happen? Do you like this feeling? These are just things to consider, Mary. Thanks again for sharing your experiences, it is very helpful to consider these matters. Robert 1528 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 1:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks Dear amara, The gatha is from 'Udana' [ exclamations ] Title is udapana sutta. I originally saw the gatha in a sinhala book by ven. K Nanananda. ( he was telling why one should aim at the highest goal ..... ) I hereby attach two htmls which I downloaded from accesstoinsight.org ( two translations ) thiram thitthathu saddhammo (See attached file: ud7-9b.html)(See attached file: ud7-9.html) Help | Home » Tipitaka » Sutta Pitaka » Khuddaka Nikaya » Udana » Context of this sutta Udana VII.9 Udapana Sutta The Well Translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland For free distribution only, by arrangement with the Buddhist Publication Society Read an alternate translation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was journeying among the Mallas together with a large Order of bhikkhus and came to the brahmin village of the Mallas called Thuna. The brahmin householders who lived in Thuna heard: "The recluse Gotama, the Sakyan son who went forth from the Sakya clan, has been journeying among the Mallas together with a large Order of bhikkhus and has arrived at Thuna." They then filled the well to the brim with grass and chaff, thinking, "Don't let those shaven-headed recluses get water to drink." Then the Lord stepped off the road, and going up to the foot of a certain tree, sat down on a seat prepared for him. Sitting there the Lord addressed the Venerable Ananda: "Come, Ananda, fetch me some water from that well." Thereupon the Venerable Ananda said to the Lord: "Just now, revered sir, the brahmin householders living in Thuna filled the well to the brim with grass and chaff, thinking, 'Don't let those shaven-headed recluses get water to drink.'" Then a second time the Lord addressed the Venerable Ananda: "Come, Ananda, fetch me some water...." And a second time the Venerable Ananda said to the Lord: "Just now, revered sir, the brahmin householders filled the well to the brim with grass and chaff...." Then for a third time the Lord addressed the Venerable Ananda: "Come, Ananda, fetch me some water from that well." "Yes, revered sir," the Venerable Ananda replied, and taking a bowl he went to the well. Now as the Venerable Ananda was approaching it, the well threw up all its grass and chaff from its mouth and stood filled to the brim with pure, clean, clear water, as if it were overflowing. Then the Venerable Ananda thought: "It is indeed wonderful, it is indeed marvellous, the great supernormal potency and power of the Tathagata! As I was approaching this well, it threw up all that grass and chaff from its mouth and now stands filled to the brim with pure, clean, clear water, as if it were overflowing." And taking some water in the bowl he approached the Lord and said: "It is indeed wonderful, it is indeed marvellous, the great supernormal potency and power of the Tathagata! This well ... now stands filled to the brim with pure, clean, clear water, as if it were overflowing. Drink the water, Lord. Drink the water, Sugata." Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance: What use is there for a well If there is water everywhere? When craving's root is severed What should one go about seeking? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: Sun 3 October 1999 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud7-9b.html Help | Home » Tipitaka » Sutta Pitaka » Khuddaka Nikaya » Udana » Context of this sutta Udana VII.9 Udapana Sutta The Well For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma Read an alternate translation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was wandering among the Mallans, together with a large community of monks, and came to a brahmin village of the Mallans name Thuna. The brahmin householders of Thuna heard that "Gotama the Sakyan contemplative, gone forth from the Sakyan clan, is wandering among the Mallans together with a large community of monks, and has arrived at Thuna." So they filled the well all the way to the brim with grass and chaff, [thinking], "Don't let these shaven-headed contemplatives draw drinking water." Then the Blessed One came down from the road, went to a certain tree, and on arrival sat down on a seat made ready. As he sat down, he said to Ven. Ananda: "Come, Ananda, get me some drinking water from that well." When this was said, Ven. Ananda replied, "Just now the brahmin householders of Thuna filled that well all the way to the brim with grass and chaff, [thinking], 'Don't let these shaven-headed contemplatives draw drinking water.'" A second time, the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda: "Come, Ananda, get me some drinking water from that well." A second time, Ven. Ananda replied, "Just now the brahmin householders of Thuna filled that well all the way to the brim with grass and chaff, [thinking], 'Don't let these shaven-headed contemplatives draw drinking water.'" A third time, the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda: "Come, Ananda, get me some drinking water from that well." "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda replied and, taking a bowl, went to the well. As he was approaching the well, it expelled all the grass and chaff from its mouth and stood filled to the brim -- streaming, as it were -- with clear, clean, radiant water. The thought occurred to Ven. Ananda, "Isn't it amazing! Isn't it awesome! How great the Tathagata's power! How great his might! While I was approaching the well, it expelled all the grass and chaff from its mouth and stood filled to the brim -- streaming, as it were -- with clear, clean, radiant water." Taking drinking water in his bowl, he went to the Blessed One and on arrival said, "How amazing, lord! How awesome! How great the Tathagata's power! How great his might! While I was approaching the well, it expelled all the grass and chaff from its mouth and stood filled to the brim -- streaming, as it were -- with clear, clean, radiant water. Drink this water, O Blessed One! Drink this water, O One-Well-Gone!" Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, One would go about searching for what? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: Sun 3 October 1999 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud7-9.html 1529 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 2:30pm Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- "m. nease" wrote: > > It takes courage to do this, since it goes against > > all > > our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to > > what spiritual development is all about. > > TELL me about it. I thought I had a remodel job on my > hands, then discovered I had to demolish the whole > house. Once I was ready to rebuild, I found I had to > dynamite the foundations. Now I think I might have to > move out of state... Mike This is a most encouraging response. Progress involves exposing and giving up our long-held ideas. This takes a certain honesty (sacca) with oneself that most find very difficult. This is why many will simply keep the same load without ever putting it down to pick up something more valuable. You have been doing a lot of putting down and picking up lately! We all have an idea in our mind of what it must be like to be enlightened. And we all have ideas of what needs doing to become like that. On both scores our ideas are likely to be deeply flawed. It is a matter of exposing these ideas to the hard glare of scrutiny - our own and others' - with the aid of a better and better understanding of the teachings, even if only at an intellectual level. On the question of intellectual understanding (ie understanding at a theoretical level), note the difference between this and intellectualisation. Seeking to clarify the proper basis for the arising of awareness so that awareness can arise at the present moment can hardly be called intellectualisation. Nor is it something we are likely to be overdoing (although that would not be impossible). Actually, even when understanding at an intellectual level has been firmly established, we need to be continually reminded of the realitiies appearing at the present moment, because the natural tendency is to think that something else is more worth knowing. So in this sense we are forever getting back to basics and starting over (or, to use your analogy, moving out of state). Like it or not, that's how it must be! Jonothan 1530 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 3:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Gayan Thanks for the further info on the Acharn Chah article. > So sorry that I put that section just out of the > block..... No need to apologise for quoting just a section - that is fine, and please do so any time. I was just trying to say that I found it hard to comment without knowing what the purpose was supposed to be. > In the preaching what the venerable instructs is how > to develop the samadhi, he > just goes on simply abandoning the normal labels of > ' first jhana, second jhana > etc....' > > he goes on to describe the vitakka and vicara, > and what he warns is ' not to be wanting to calm the > mind' or do not have a > ditthi that 'when calming the mind i should have > this type of feeling..etc' > What he says is when you 'want' to calm the mind > according to your 'own' > template,then that will be a pitfall. It is interesting that he seems to be emphasising the dangers of expectations. This is something we have discussed quite a bit on this list, mostly in the context of satipatthana. It is a useful reminder. > I will attach the full document here. > > (See attached file: heartfood.html) I hope you won't mind if I don't read the article in full. However, I am happy to discuss any part of it that interests you particularly. Jonothan PS You might like to know that you can achieve the same thing by enclosing just the url link, rather than the full article. This keeps more space free for our archives! Thanks for all you input, Gayan. 1531 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 8:51pm Subject: Re: Thanks --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear amara, > > > The gatha is from 'Udana' [ exclamations ] > Title is udapana sutta. > > I originally saw the gatha in a sinhala book by ven. K Nanananda. ( he was > telling why one should aim at the highest goal ..... ) > I hereby attach two htmls which I downloaded from accesstoinsight.org ( two > translations ) > > thiram thitthathu saddhammo > > > (See attached file: ud7-9b.html)(See attached file: ud7-9.html) Dear Gayan, Thanks for the references and the two files. We did not have time to discuss your translation today but Khun Sujin asked someone to look at it. I am sure he will give it due attention. Amara 1532 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 9:55pm Subject: The English Section. Dear Friends in the dhamma, Yesterday Khun Sujin told me again that wanted me to help her with the English section, telling me that we would be completely independent of the foundation committee. We would handle the international side of the foundation, including the tapes and radio programs and website and such. Today I said I would, and told her that I will stop the company we have set up but that its accounts would also be transfered to the English section, also independent of the committee, with only Khun Sujin and Khun Chomnipa, also a student of hers, the accountant (she is a professional banker), as the ones to sign the checks, so we can operate more smoothly. At present the account consists of 100,000 bhts donated by my mother and about ten thousand from friends, a pledge from Jonothan and Sarah to sponsor the English language tapes, shipping and handling, and Sukinder has also offered to help with the mailing. Betty will be helping to edit tapes for future internet radio programs (once they have the system properly running). Our first printing will be the 'Summary', which should be ready to start by the end of the year, and the second the glossary as a separate booklet to be carried around easily. We should have things set up soon, and will report on the list accordingly. And once ready we will of course put the appropriate pages in the website, Amara 1533 From: Mary Reinard Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 10:18pm Subject: Re: Ch Dear Robert, Thank you so much for sharing. Your questtions below feel well directed and supportive and caught a lurking pride by the nose . . . much appreciate that! I wrote, > > All my life, I've prided this self because of the passinate > > nature > > accessible to 'me'. Now, though still aware of the ability to > > follow > > the passion of the site and/or taste, there is a distance to > > this > > reaction, thus allowing a 'choice'. A choice to re-act or not > > to re- > > act. Observing, or watching these tendicies arise seems to > > point to a > > space between the arising and the choice to follow or not to > > follow. Robert asks, "Is there reqlly a choice? Is there a sense that 'I' am following or not following? Is there an idea that 'I' made awareness happen? " Mary, Within this lump of aggregrates there still is a sense of "I". I won't pretend otherwise. If there were not, there would be no reason for me to be here involving you all with my search for a way out. While not yet free from a sense of I, then yes, there is a choice. It is this clinging to convention as reality (whether gross or subtle) that gives the evolved habits of today, a choice. It doesn't matter all the books or study or meditation done thus far, until all clinging is let go of, there remains a sense of "I" and thus I have a choice. It is the choices I make that will undercut habits or stregnthen habits, delivering this lump of aggregates further along or farther astray, the path to liberation. Robert writes, "Do you like this feeling?" Mary, Ouch! Got that sense of I and pride right on the nose! Not only do I like this feeling but I also wish I could say . . . "not a matter of liking or disliking, blah, blah, blah . . . Actually started answering this question this very way, not a matter . . . Truthfully there is a feeling of calm rest that is pleasant and yes, "I" do like it. Robert wrote, "These are just things to consider, Mary. Thanks again for sharing your experiences, it is very helpful to consider these matters. Robert Mary, You are welcome, thank you for sharing and pointing, and requesting further clarification. Mary 1534 From: A T Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 10:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:13:45 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Alex, > >Sorry I've been so long getting back to you! Dear Mike and friends, Thank you for getting back to me. However, the content of my previous post only echoed what you wrote before. I just wanted to say "Me, too. I agree with you absolutely." You have been very fortunate, Mike. All of those 29 years of your practice were not wasted! Thanks to them, you understand what needs to be done at a much deeper level than I. I still have to *study* very carefully what Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, Kom, ... write so that I can get to the heart of what they are trying to convey to me. I'm a slow learner. That's why Sarah (?) could say that she saw the big progress you have made since joining the group. Like you, the books written by Ajaan Sujin (I just cannot call her Khun Sujin any longer, even though I don't know what Khun means exactly) and NVG are on the top lists of priority among my books. With recent learning, I see that my formal meditation time may be integrated into daily activities better than before. Most importantly, I realize that whatever happens will happen because of the uncontrollable conditions, and absolutely there's no Self involved. May you continue growing in Dhamma. I'm looking forward to read more of your wonderful posts. Anumodana, Alexandra 1535 From: A T Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure Dear Robert, How profound this post is! I thank you for your knowledge. :-))) It really helps me to distinguish the difference between reality and concept. >Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and >especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. > >Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not >concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? >Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. And, > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > >Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have >actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. Really, like what Mike exclaimed a few weeks ago: Where are you people from, may I ask? :-))) Anumodana, Alexandra Tran ============ >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:23:48 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Mike, >Jonothon wrote >--- "> > It is always useful to consider what someone says in > > > terms of the > > > teaching on ultimate realities. While a moment of > > > thinking is real > > > (it is citta), thoughts themselves are not realities > > > - they are > > > concepts (panyatti). Thoughts cannot be the object > > > of awareness or > > > understanding." > > >And you commented "This is something I'm not at all clear on. >I've been > > wondering lately whether thoughts were nama or rupa, > > and discovered this morning that they're neither. > > From NVG's 'Conditions':" > >Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists of different >cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These >are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. >let us consider a couple of thinking. >1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking >that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your >no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. >The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. >2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again >same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process >are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not >real. >3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now >(talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is >concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours >are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. >Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and >especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. > >Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not >concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? >Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All >the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse >concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas >directly even during the processes of thinking that take >concepts for objects. > > > > > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > >Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have >actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. >Robert > > > > > > 1536 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 28, 2000 11:43pm Subject: Re: Ch > act. Observing, or watching these tendicies arise seems to point to a > space between the arising and the choice to follow or not to follow. > When continuing to observe rather than automatically following > automatically, much like a dog and its nose, then resting in the > space between contact and reaction gives rise to . . .what? . . . a > calm, non reactionary . . . what? I don't know . . . space . . . > Alien space . . . Alien to me any way. Dear Mary, I wouldn't pretend to know someone else's mind, especially an artist like yourself, but according to the Tipitaka, we can only experience things because they appear and they appear because of conditions make them arise. All citta in the world cannot arise without an object that is experienced and the six dvara through which they are experienced. The swiftness of the succession of the citta and their aramana through the six dvara makes us think that we see and hear at the same time as having body sense contact, and knowing that and fully experiencing the different realities through different ways accumulates right understanding of their characteristics, little by little. Knowledge of things as they really are must grow so strong that there is no more uncertainty, of nama as nama (the element that experiences) and rupa as rupa (the element that cannot experience anything, such as a dead person, with the same physical attributes), first, and stronger and stronger ending uncertainty level by level. So I am not sure what you were experiencing, but it has to be one or the other of these two realities that make up our entire universe, but certainly more study of realities as they really are will bring you accumulated knowledge one day. And as awareness can arise anywhere and at any time, even as you read this there is color and sound appearing, among other things, to be studied, in the present moment. I don't know if this helps, Amara 1537 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 0:01am Subject: Re: Books ... > > (I just cannot call her Khun > Sujin any longer, even though I don't know what Khun means exactly) Dear Alex, Just a little note: Khun is a polite address, (something like Mike's sirs and ma'ams, =^_^= ) and Tan Achaan is still more polite and formal than Achaan in Thai! =^_^= Actually she won't mind what you call her, she would be so pleased you study and the dhamma! Anumodana, =^_^= Amara 1538 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 0:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Not Sure Dear Mn, Many thanks for all your letters to us. But please explain to me how the saying of "not sure", each time something arises within the mind (through the sense door-mind door process?), how that would lead to the arising of panna? Did you try that out? Did panna actually arise? with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Not Sure > Dear Gayan, > > Ajahn Chah's 'Yang mai na' (or something like > that--'not yet sure') is a good example of the way I > looked at things for a long time. This kind of > retrospective reflection seemed/seems to me the only > option if sati doesn't arise strongly or frequently > enough (or at all!)--that is, if the conditions just > arent' there yet for the arising of real awareness of > reality in the present moment. Lately, though, I've > grown very uneasy about this kind of retrospection. > So I'm glad you brought this up and look forward to > the group's responses. > > So glad to continue to see you on this list, sir, > > mn > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I was reading a document on one of ven.Ajahn Chah's > > preachings to a group of > > monks. > > Thought this section might help somebody..., > > > > starts here > > ------------- > > > > Whenever something arises within the mind, whether > > you like it or not, whether > > it seems right or wrong, just cut it off with, "this > > is not a sure thing." > > Whatever arises just cut it down, "not sure, not > > sure." With just this single ax > > you can cut it all down. It's all "not sure." > > > > For the duration of this next month that you will be > > staying in this forest > > monastery, you should make a lot of headway. You > > will see the truth. This "not > > sure" is really an important one. This one develops > > wisdom. The more you look > > the more you will see "not sure"-ness. After you've > > cut something off with "not > > sure" it may come circling round and pop up again. > > Yes, it's truly "not sure." > > Whatever pops up just stick this one label on it > > all..."not sure." You stick the > > sign on .."not sure"...and in a while, when its > > turn comes, it crops up > > again..."Ah, not sure." Dig here! Not sure. You will > > see this same old one who's > > been fooling you month in, month out, year in, year > > out, from the day you were > > born. There's only this one who's been fooling you > > all along. See this and > > realize the way things are. > > > > -------------- > > > > ( not-sure-ness might help to see things without > > falling to a ditthi, cos ditthi > > may disguise itself as gnana) > > > > rgds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1539 From: A T Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 0:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 16:01:02 -0000 > > > > > > > (I just cannot call her Khun > > Sujin any longer, even though I don't know what Khun means exactly) > > >Dear Alex, > >Just a little note: Khun is a polite address, (something like Mike's >sirs and ma'ams, =^_^= ) Mike is very polite. Sometimes, he's so polite that I feel he's pulling my leg. :-))) Just joking, Mike. >and Tan Achaan is still more polite and >formal than Achaan in Thai! =^_^= Now, I know that Tan Achaan and Achaan is one! Thank you. >Actually she won't mind what you >call her, she would be so pleased you study and the dhamma! :-))) > >Anumodana, >=^_^= >Amara > Anumodana, AT 1540 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 0:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Not Sure --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Mn, > Many thanks for all your letters to us. But please > explain to me how the > saying of "not sure", each time something arises > within the mind (through > the sense door-mind door process?), how that would > lead to the arising of > panna? Did you try that out? Did panna actually > arise? Dear Betty, No, Ma'am. At this point, I'm quite sure that it did not (thanks to all of you), though I was quite convinced for a long time that it had done. I will always have the deepest respect for Ajahn Chah and his followers. But, as for 'myself', I'm certain now that what I took to be the arising of sammasati, based on what I misunderstood as Ajahn Chah's teachings, were no more or less than the very pleasant visits of my old friends recently unmasked here by Gayan as those pesky little 'cheats'! Thank you, and all of your wonderful friends, Mike 1541 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 4:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Amara You are so right when you said to Alex- > Just a little note: Khun is a polite address, > (something like Mike's > sirs and ma'ams, =^_^= ) and Tan Achaan is still > more polite and > formal than Achaan in Thai! =^_^= Actually she > won't mind what you > call her, she would be so pleased you study and the > dhamma! For some reason Khun Sujin has always been known as that among English-speaking listeners, while always 'Ajaan' of course in Thai. But you are absolutely right when you say that she wouldn't mind which she is known by. I remember once a Thai-speaking westener addressing her as 'Pii' [for others, this means 'older sister', and is much less formal than 'Khun']. I could see the surprise on the faces of those present, but Khun Sujin just laughed and said anything was fine! Am I right that Khun also means virtue? Acharn/Ajaan of course means teacher (Pali: achariya). Jonothan 1542 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A bit of sad news Dear O, I'm not sure if you are able to check messages or whether you're too busy. In any case, on behalf of us all on the list, I'd like to offer your husband and you and all your family our condolences and best wishes. We look forward to hearing from you at the appropriate time. Sarah Amara, if O isn't checking messages and you're in touch, perhaps you would pass on our best wishes. Did her mother in law live in U.S. or Thailand? > > >Dear all, > >As you probably noticed O hasn't been participating as much as usual >these days, today she said she will be very busy for awhile >longer since her mother in law has just passed away yesterday. I >hope she is not too tired at the moment, it is probably a very trying >period for her, and that she will be able to join us again soon, > >Amara > > > 1543 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:47pm Subject: Re: Books ... > Am I right that Khun also means virtue? Acharn/Ajaan > of course means teacher (Pali: achariya). Jonothan, Yes, it does, and Alex is right to call her Ajaan, isn't she? =^_^= Amara By the way, Varee has divided the glossary on the site into two parts and added several more words today. Mike and Robert, please look for updates off-list, Amara 1544 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 29, 2000 10:01pm Subject: Re: A bit of sad news > Did her mother in law live in U.S. or Thailand? Dear Sarah, She lived in the States. Khun Sujin tells me that there will be dhamma discussions during the funeral ceremonies, which will also be taped for further use. By the way I wanted to share a letter from Mike five days ago which touched me very much: From: "m. nease" Save Address - Block Sender Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Dear Amara, (...) > we > need personnel > to function at the foundation, although lots of > improvements can > still be made Amara, I'm definitely coming to Bangkok eventually (anicca permitting). As I think I told you, I'd originally planned to ordain in the NE next June; then meeting you all changed those plans completely, and I planned to go to BKK in June instead. Now my boss has asked me to stay on here for another year. Since there is no longer any since of urgency to ordain, and I have so much to learn (abhidhamma vocabulary and basics, pali and Thai), I'm seriously considering granting her request. That said, however, if you really need someone to work at the foundation, let me know! Pursuing abhidhamma via this foundation is far above any other priority for me. By the way, I'm in the process of making a little booklet, for my own use, out of the Abhidhamma Glossary on your website. I hope to be able to save it in PDF so that it can be printed out as is and folded to make a 4.25" x 5.5" pamphlet. It would be nice to be able to distribute this as a little handbook for carrying around away from the computer. If you're interested, I'll send a draft once I've finished for proofreading. I thought I might also show it to Andy Shaw and some of the other palitrans guys, to see if anyone's interested in adding letter-perfect pali. What do you think? I'll be shopping for a digital recorder this weekend. I haven't yet contacted the man you (?) mentioned, but will try to do that today; if I'm unable, I'll just focus on the capability of converting audio tape to the digital audio formats that have been suggested. Sei Gesund! mn *** I hope you don't mind my sharing this with everyone, Mike! Amara 1545 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 0:20am Subject: Dear Everyone, As an official (yet independent! Does that sound contradictory?) site for the foundation, I don't think Nina would mind us having more of her books, already printed by the foundation, in our site: we are having Abhidhamma in Daily Life digitized, to be put on the site as soon as it is finished. Followed by Realities and Concepts, and others! Sarah, Robert and Alex, would you like to share with us your important posting files, and perhaps we could read some of them for the radio programs in the future, we would like to prepare about a hundred hours' worth of English tapes ready to start when they are. The rest would be from our discussions, old and new. Robert, your collection would be of infinite value, and we might have to ask you to send some of the MP tapes over again, we are not sure whether the foundation people lost them or not, Betty thought they belonged to the foundation and took them there after she had listened to them. Feedback would be greatly appreciated, Amara I have tried to add a search engine for internal as well as internet use to the site, on Robert's kind suggestions, but it might take a little time before it works, it is on the English Homepage, at the bottom left. 1546 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 0:33am Subject: search engine > I have tried to add a search engine for internal as well as internet > use to the site, on Robert's kind suggestions, but it might take a > little time before it works, it is on the English Homepage, at the > bottom left. Dear all, The search engine seems to be functioning already, and it is on the bottom right, not left, sorry, Amara 1547 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Dear Amara, Jonothan, and Kom, Thank you for following up the meaning of Khun and Ajaan. Since reading Joe's post, I realized that perhaps Ajaan is better for me to use for Ajaan Sujin than Khun Sujin since he still called her Ajaan. From this experience, I realize that it's always best to study a language with the native speaker. I saw that someone address Amara as Khun Amara. From then on, I guess that Khun is a polite title for a woman. Now, I even know that Khun is for a man, too. For example, I can address Jonothan and Robert as Khun Jonothan, Khun Robert, Khun Kom besides Khun Amara, Khun Sarah, Khun Betty,... How do you want me to address you, by the way? Thank you. Anumodana, Alex ===================================== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:47:10 -0000 > > > > > > > Am I right that Khun also means virtue? Acharn/Ajaan > > of course means teacher (Pali: achariya). > > >Jonothan, > >Yes, it does, and Alex is right to call her Ajaan, isn't she? =^_^= > >Amara > >By the way, Varee has divided the glossary on the site into two >parts and added several more words today. Mike and Robert, please >look for updates off-list, > >Amara > > > 1548 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 1:53am Subject: Re: Books ... > How do you want me to address you, by the way? Thank you. Dear Khun Alex, People are creatures of habit, aren't we! Please just call me Amara, and I will call you Alex, as before! =^_^= Signing off until tomorrow, good night, =^_^= Amara 1550 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 4:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A bit of sad news Dear O, Please accept my condolences and best wishes to you and your family during this difficult time. Please take care of yourself. Best Wishes, Alex Tran >Dear all, > >As you probably noticed O hasn't been participating as much as usual >these days, today she said she will be very busy for awhile >longer since her mother in law has just passed away yesterday. I >hope she is not too tired at the moment, it is probably a very trying >period for her, and that she will be able to join us again soon, > >Amara 1551 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 4:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Dear Khun Amara, Yes, Ma'am. We are born of habits. I'll try my very best to call you Amara, and please call me Alex. Thank you, Ma'am. I bet Khun Mike is glad that we continue to call him Mike. Is it right, Sir? :-))) Alex :-))) ============================== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:53:07 -0000 > > > > How do you want me to address you, by the way? Thank you. > > >Dear Khun Alex, > >People are creatures of habit, aren't we! Please just call me >Amara, and I will call you Alex, as before! =^_^= > >Signing off until tomorrow, good night, >=^_^= >Amara > > > 1552 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 1:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Important Posts Dear Amara, My favorite ones are from the archives written by you, Robert, Jonothan, Sarah, Mike, Kom, Gayan,... I like the correspondent from Theresa, and Leonardo concerning about meditation, too. They all are very thoughtful and educational. Anumodana, Alex ================== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:20:24 -0000 > >Dear Everyone, > >As an official (yet independent! Does that sound contradictory?) >site for the foundation, I don't think Nina would mind us having >more of her books, already printed by the foundation, in our site: >we are having Abhidhamma in Daily Life digitized, to be put on the >site as soon as it is finished. Followed by Realities and Concepts, >and others! > >Sarah, Robert and Alex, would you like to share with us your >important posting files, and perhaps we could read some of them for >the radio programs in the future, we would like to prepare about a >hundred hours' worth of English tapes ready to start when they are. >The rest would be from our discussions, old and new. Robert, your >collection would be of infinite value, and we might have to ask you >to send some of the MP tapes over again, we are not sure whether the >foundation people lost them or not, Betty thought they belonged to >the foundation and took them there after she had listened to them. > >Feedback would be greatly appreciated, > >Amara > >I have tried to add a search engine for internal as well as internet >use to the site, on Robert's kind suggestions, but it might take a >little time before it works, it is on the English Homepage, at the >bottom left. > 1553 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 8:42am Subject: Oi amigos Oi amigos, [Hi friends] A little taste of portuguese ... :-) I would like to thank all of you who respond to my question on yonisomanasikara x sampajanna - Robert, Amara, m.nease and Kom. I was out for some days. I`ve missed all of you. As I`ve archived all your posts I' ll be very busy digesting all the informations you've sent me ... Is there any problem if I, with this great delay, post some extra questions on this matter if I miss something ? Sorry I'm not being a very good pupil :-) ! Metta, Leonardo 1554 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oi amigos Dear leonardo, Anytime is a good time. We all look forward to your well considered comments and questions. Your amigo Robert --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Oi amigos, > [Hi friends] > > A little taste of portuguese ... :-) > > > I would like to thank all of you who respond to my > question on > yonisomanasikara x sampajanna - Robert, Amara, m.nease and > Kom. > I was out for some days. I`ve missed all of you. As > I`ve archived all your > posts I' ll be very busy digesting all the informations you've > sent me ... > Is there any problem if I, with this great delay, post > some extra questions > on this matter if I miss something ? > > Sorry I'm not being a very good pupil :-) ! > > > Metta, > Leonardo > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1555 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:09am Subject: Vangchaka dhamma Dear all, Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation (the former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has found no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. There are in fact the 38 samatha kammathana (normally 40, but minus akasa and aloga kasina) and there are the 'vanga' (literally translated as crooked, bent, not straight) which is another word for kilesa, and so far no Pali 'vangchaka'. As we said earlier, anything not in the Tipitaka (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) remains outside our scope of interest, but it has been an interesting experience which made us think and scrutinize and discern precisely really convincing disguises. We must thank Gayan for this learning experience and thank the Buddha even more for leaving us such a comprehensive work with no deviation possible that can be free of detection. He even left us a guide as to how to react to them, as Jonothan or someone posted earlier, by ultimately comparing them to his words in the Tipitaka. And we must feel sorry for those who misunderstood the teachings and still sorrier for those who intentionally try to mislead others for whatever reason. I would prefer not to think of the consequences myself. Any way here was a lesson to us all, especially me, Amara 1556 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: Oi amigos > Oi amigos, > [Hi friends] Oi amigo! > A little taste of portuguese ... :-) Thank you, love it, and as the Spanish say (sorry, that's about as close to Portugese as I can get!), Bienvenido a casa! >As I`ve archived all your > posts I' ll be very busy digesting all the informations you've sent me ... I hope you have a good digestion because there are some meaty stuff in there! > Is there any problem if I, with this great delay, post some extra questions > on this matter if I miss something ? It's fine by me, and I know a few places I can pass your questions to when I get stumped! Great to hear from you again, Amara 1557 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Important Posts > My favorite ones are from the archives written by you, Robert, Jonothan, > Sarah, Mike, Kom, Gayan,... I like the correspondent from Theresa, and > Leonardo concerning about meditation, too. They all are very thoughtful and > educational. Dear Alex, I see what you mean when you said the archives should be printed in book form earlier.... Thanks all the same, =^_^= Amara 1558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 0:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Alex I think most people treat the internet as a very informal mode of communication, on a par with casual speech. Speaking for myself, I prefer to be just- Jonothan! (or even Jon!!) PS I agree with Amara that 'Ajaan Sujin' is indeed appropriate. --- A T wrote: > Dear Amara, Jonothan, and Kom, > > Thank you for following up the meaning of Khun > and Ajaan. Since reading > Joe's post, I realized that perhaps Ajaan is better > for me to use for Ajaan > Sujin than Khun Sujin since he still called her > Ajaan. > > From this experience, I realize that it's always > best to study a language > with the native speaker. I saw that someone address > Amara as Khun Amara. > From then on, I guess that Khun is a polite title > for a woman. Now, I even > know that Khun is for a man, too. For example, I > can address Jonothan and > Robert as Khun Jonothan, Khun Robert, Khun Kom > besides Khun Amara, Khun > Sarah, Khun Betty,... > > How do you want me to address you, by the way? > Thank you. > > Anumodana, > Alex > ===================================== > >From: "amara chay" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... > >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:47:10 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I right that Khun also means virtue? > Acharn/Ajaan > > > of course means teacher (Pali: achariya). > > > > > >Jonothan, > > > >Yes, it does, and Alex is right to call her Ajaan, > isn't she? =^_^= > > > >Amara > > > >By the way, Varee has divided the glossary on the > site into two > >parts and added several more words today. Mike and > Robert, please > >look for updates off-list, > > > >Amara > > > > > > > > 1559 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 0:16pm Subject: Ch - III 7. ittanitta samuppekkhana mukhena sammoho vangceti. the kusala dhamma ittanitta samuppekkhana - untrained mind takes pride, delights ..etc in 'itta' happenings,( fame, gains,praise etc... ) and will entertain anger ,hatred towards 'unitta' happenings.(fear, shame, blame, sorrow etc..) The mind without tanha, conceit stays unwavered and steady in all occasions. This quality is complete only in arahants, but can be there in a certain degree in puthujjanas and sekhas. But sometimes, simply because failing to understand the true nature of particular itta and anitta happenings, one stays 'unwavered' and calm. He might think that this is his kusala , but that is the sammoha akusala dhamma. 8. attagnuta mukhena attani aparibhavena maano vangceti. the kusala dhamma attagnuta - taking good care of one self , looking after oneself, taking the full responsibility of oneself with reasoning is a kusala dhamma praised by buddha in many occasions. but the akusala maana can cheat by taking the shape of that quality,one can mistake this attani aparibhavena maana in him for the former kusala dhamma and let it develop. contd. 1560 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 1:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vangchaka dhamma Dear Amara, Could you please write the "above list" down. You omited this in your reply. I find your reply hasty as I think Gayan has not finished his translation yet. . There are some Tika (subcommentary ) that are in sri lanka that have not being yet translated into Thai. These may use some different wording to what we are used to. I know that with regard to the nettipakarana this has never been translated before as I was the one who first bought it to the attention of Acharn Sujin and who then showed Acharn Somporn. If the netti- pakarana has only just been translated how could the commentary or tika be well known? I assume you gave Acharn Somporn only the small extracts that Gayan has sent so far- but how is able to judge the value until he sees the whole book? Also acharn somporn is not good at English and may have difficulty in regard to this. You write "And we must feel sorry for those > who > misunderstood the teachings and still sorrier for those who > intentionally try to mislead others for whatever reason. I > would > prefer not to think of the consequences myself. Any way here > was a > lesson to us all, especially me," Are you implying that the all of this is outside Dhamma? My estimation is different (although I did see a point or two I would query) and I would like Gayan to continue with his work before we reach final conclusions on this (if he has time). Sometimes Nina adds comments to what she reads in the Tipitika - is this "outside our scope of interest"? You say :"anything not in the > Tipitaka > (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) > remains > outside our scope of interest," I will listen to anyone who I think keeps within the Theravada tradition. This is not to say you should put anything on the web but please do not include me in "outside our scope of interest". I also read the ancient commentaries which are outside the Tipitika (as do Acharn Somporn and Acharn Sujin). I indeed have a long standing wish to see more of the commentaries and Tika translated into English. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation > (the > former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has > found > no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. There are in fact > the > 38 samatha kammathana (normally 40, but minus akasa and aloga > kasina) and there are the 'vanga' (literally translated as > crooked, > bent, not straight) which is another word for kilesa, and so > far no > Pali 'vangchaka'. As we said earlier, anything not in the > Tipitaka > (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) > remains > outside our scope of interest, but it has been an interesting > experience which made us think and scrutinize and discern > precisely > really convincing disguises. We must thank Gayan for this > learning > experience and thank the Buddha even more for leaving us such > a > comprehensive work with no deviation possible that can be free > of > detection. He even left us a guide as to how to react to > them, as > Jonothan or someone posted earlier, by ultimately comparing > them to > his words in the Tipitaka. > > Amara > > 1561 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 1:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Amara, A good idea about speaking the tapes. I will record some of my posts and send them to you. I will also send you a set of ten tapes- the ones that the foundation lost!!! (I am joking, I think I am perhaps the chief careless person - it is a relief to hear others do such things too)-. Do you want the tapes on mimi-disc or cassette? (is mini disc the digital ones that can go on the web?) I am preparing an edited set of my posts but this will be a while _ I am busy with work projects for the next few weeks) Robert -- amara chay wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > As an official (yet independent! Does that sound > contradictory?) > site for the foundation, I don't think Nina would mind us > having > more of her books, already printed by the foundation, in our > site: > we are having Abhidhamma in Daily Life digitized, to be put on > the > site as soon as it is finished. Followed by Realities and > Concepts, > and others! > > Sarah, Robert and Alex, would you like to share with us your > important posting files, and perhaps we could read some of > them for > the radio programs in the future, we would like to prepare > about a > hundred hours' worth of English tapes ready to start when they > are. > The rest would be from our discussions, old and new. Robert, > your > collection would be of infinite value, and we might have to > ask you > to send some of the MP tapes over again, we are not sure > whether the > foundation people lost them or not, Betty thought they > belonged to > the foundation and took them there after she had listened to > them. > > Feedback would be greatly appreciated, > > Amara > > I have tried to add a search engine for internal as well as > internet > use to the site, on Robert's kind suggestions, but it might > take a > little time before it works, it is on the English Homepage, at > the > bottom left. > > 1562 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 2:52pm Subject: Ch - III msg- 0002 7. ittanitta samuppekkhana mukhena sammoho vangceti. the kusala dhamma ittanitta samuppekkhana - untrained mind takes pride, delights ..etc in 'itta' happenings,( fame, gains,praise etc... ) and will entertain anger ,hatred towards 'unitta' happenings.(fear, shame, blame, sorrow etc..) The mind without tanha, conceit stays unwavered and steady in all occasions. This quality is complete only in arahants, but can be there in a certain degree in puthujjanas and sekhas. But sometimes, simply because failing to understand the true nature of particular itta and anitta happenings, one stays 'unwavered' and calm. He might think that this is his kusala , but that is the sammoha akusala dhamma. 8. attagnuta mukhena attani aparibhavena maano vangceti. the kusala dhamma attagnuta - taking good care of one self , looking after oneself, taking the full responsibility of oneself with reasoning is a kusala dhamma praised by buddha in many occasions. but the akusala maana can cheat by taking the shape of that quality,one can mistake this attani aparibhavena maana in him for the former kusala dhamma and let it develop. contd. 1563 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit > >Dear Sarah, > >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha's >panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex all >the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and my >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the >followings: > >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta: > >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways: >sahajata (conascence condition) >sampayutta (association) >annamanna (mutuality) >nisaya (support) >indariya (chief in its functions?) >atti (still there?) >avicata (not gone yet?) >possibly vipaka (results) > >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways: >sahajata (conascence condition) >sampayutta (association) >annamanna (mutuality) >nisaya (support) >ahara (brings forth results?) >atti (still there?) >avicata (not gone yet?) >possibly vipaka (results) > >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object) >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara) >possibly asevana (repeating in javana) >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise) >possibly aramana (as sense object) >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?) >possibly natti (not there?) >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?) > o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the swimmingpool with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful, but still doesn't give me all the answers... I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level either agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!). now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as pacaya for vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds of nissaya, i.e. 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya (base-object-prenascence-dependence0 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) 1. can only be heartbase 2. arising together and dependent on 3. conditioning statew must be a material base 4. a mix up pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied v.carefully. >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana >arising after the phassa in the following ways: >pacchajat (postnascence), >sampayitta (association) > >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be >sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate? > You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another. This is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting me to spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an analogy used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they find and don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to crave for the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do mental gymnastics to kind of get it!) >Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn more >about pacaya. > >kom Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual study at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it goes to the heart of the anattaness of realities. One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about the particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered the most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too. Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in posts to read up! Sarah 1564 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 3:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vangchaka dhamma Dear amara, I want to get myself little bit cleared.(please) when you say ' anything not in the Tipitaka (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) remains outside our scope of interest,' do you also mean 'atthakatha's (commentries) as well? Thanks in advance "amara chay" on 10/30/2000 09:09:18 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vangchaka dhamma Dear all, Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation (the former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has found no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. There are in fact the 38 samatha kammathana (normally 40, but minus akasa and aloga kasina) and there are the 'vanga' (literally translated as crooked, bent, not straight) which is another word for kilesa, and so far no Pali 'vangchaka'. As we said earlier, anything not in the Tipitaka (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) remains outside our scope of interest, but it has been an interesting experience which made us think and scrutinize and discern precisely really convincing disguises. We must thank Gayan for this learning experience and thank the Buddha even more for leaving us such a comprehensive work with no deviation possible that can be free of detection. He even left us a guide as to how to react to them, as Jonothan or someone posted earlier, by ultimately comparing them to his words in the Tipitaka. And we must feel sorry for those who misunderstood the teachings and still sorrier for those who intentionally try to mislead others for whatever reason. I would prefer not to think of the consequences myself. Any way here was a lesson to us all, especially me, Amara 1565 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:02am Subject: A bit of happy news! Amara, thanks for sharing! Mike, > >Amara, I'm definitely coming to Bangkok eventually >(anicca permitting). As I think I told you, I'd >originally planned to ordain in the NE next June; then >meeting you all changed those plans completely, and I >planned to go to BKK in June instead. Now my boss has >asked me to stay on here for another year. Since >there is no longer any since of urgency to ordain, and >I have so much to learn (abhidhamma vocabulary and >basics, pali and Thai), I'm seriously considering >granting her request. That said, however, if you >really need someone to work at the foundation, let me >know! Pursuing abhidhamma via this foundation is far >above any other priority for me. > Mike, they'll always need help at the foundation so no hurry! if you continue yr job you can study abhidhamma, work for the foundation from where you are and continue yr work! >By the way, I'm in the process of making a little >booklet, for my own use, out of the Abhidhamma >Glossary on your website. I hope to be able to save >it in PDF so that it can be printed out as is and >folded to make a 4.25" x 5.5" pamphlet. It would be >nice to be able to distribute this as a little >handbook for carrying around away from the computer. >If you're interested, I'll send a draft once I've >finished for proofreading. I thought I might also >show it to Andy Shaw and some of the other palitrans >guys, to see if anyone's interested in adding >letter-perfect pali. What do you think? > I know my opinion hasn't been asked, but i think you're going to be a great support to us all with the tapes, booklets AND answering posts with your great style and modesty! We can all work you full-time from where you are, so don't worry! When it's the right time you can join one of the wonderful dhamma trips with Khun Sujin or visit Bkk. You'll get the red carpet treatment for either. I also think it's a great idea to get Andy Shaw and anyone else involved in your projects. It's a way of introducing them to the nitty gritty dhamma! (Does that sound sneaky?) >I'll be shopping for a digital recorder this weekend. >I haven't yet contacted the man you (?) mentioned, but >will try to do that today; if I'm unable, I'll just >focus on the capability of converting audio tape to >the digital audio formats that have been suggested. > sorry this is all beyond me but I'm impressed anyway! Sarah 1566 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 4:55pm Subject: Re: Vangchaka dhamma > Could you please write the "above list" down. Dear Robert, If you looked again you will see that I said, and I copy: Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation (the former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has found no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. > There are some Tika > (subcommentary ) that are in sri lanka that have not being yet > translated into Thai. These may use some different wording to > what we are used to. I know that with regard to the > nettipakarana this has never been translated before as I was the > one who first bought it to the attention of Acharn Sujin and who > then showed Acharn Somporn. If the netti- pakarana has only just > been translated how could the commentary or tika be well known? I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." As far as the Nettipakarana Atthagatha Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat said no, as I explained earlier. > I assume you gave Acharn Somporn only the small extracts that > Gayan has sent so far- but how is able to judge the value until > he sees the whole book? Also acharn somporn is not good at > English and may have difficulty in regard to this. Khun Sujin gave the translation to a gentleman who is very well versed in English, at least as well as you or I, don't worry. He has not made any comments. > You write "And we must feel sorry for those > > who > > misunderstood the teachings and still sorrier for those who > > intentionally try to mislead others for whatever reason. I > > would > > prefer not to think of the consequences myself. Any way here > > was a > > lesson to us all, especially me," > Are you implying that the all of this is outside Dhamma? My > estimation is different (although I did see a point or two I > would query) and I would like Gayan to continue with his work > before we reach final conclusions on this (if he has time). > Sometimes Nina adds comments to what she reads in the Tipitika - > is this "outside our scope of interest"? You say :"anything not > in the > > Tipitaka > > (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) > > remains > > outside our scope of interest," I meant of course we meaning the website people, and possibly extendable to the foundation experts, I am almost sure including Khun Sujin, but will find out if you wish. Perhaps I should ammend that to say that we are interested in everything, but we make the distinction between what is taught by the Buddha and every other teaching, and there is an infinity of the latter as well. In fact Khun Sujin often listens to the Koran programs when she has time, they even have cooking lessons, she says. But what she teaches are what can always be refered to in the Tipitaka or the Commentaries. I myself never could find the patience for that kind of teachings, but that's just me, I feel that I could better employ my time. > I will listen to anyone who I think keeps within the Theravada > tradition. This is not to say you should put anything on the web > but please do not include me in "outside our scope of interest". > I also read the ancient commentaries which are outside the > Tipitika (as do Acharn Somporn and Acharn Sujin). I indeed have > a long standing wish to see more of the commentaries and Tika > translated into English. Anumodana. And if ever anyone finds these Vangchaka Dhamma in the Nettipakarana, please give me a sign, I have just received the copy that you gave Khun Sujin which she sent me this morning, I will look up your reference immediately, Thanking you in advance, Amara > --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > > > Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation > > (the > > former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has > > found > > no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. There are in fact > > the > > 38 samatha kammathana (normally 40, but minus akasa and aloga > > kasina) and there are the 'vanga' (literally translated as > > crooked, > > bent, not straight) which is another word for kilesa, and so > > far no > > Pali 'vangchaka'. As we said earlier, anything not in the > > Tipitaka > > (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) > > remains > > outside our scope of interest, but it has been an interesting > > experience which made us think and scrutinize and discern > > precisely > > really convincing disguises. We must thank Gayan for this > > learning > > experience and thank the Buddha even more for leaving us such > > a > > comprehensive work with no deviation possible that can be free > > of > > detection. He even left us a guide as to how to react to > > them, as > > Jonothan or someone posted earlier, by ultimately comparing > > them to > > his words in the Tipitaka. > > > Amara > > > > > > 1567 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:16pm Subject: Internet Radio-2nd try! Dear all, Please try again, at this address infact there is some unintelligible tape on at the moment, earlier it was another voice which was comprehensible! Ours is at 8 pm or 20:00 hrs but it will probably be Khun Santi speaking (a man's voice, for those who do not know him!) and in Thai. If it all goes well, we will be starting with Khun Sujin's half an hour and the other in English. Please try to send feedback as quickly as possible, because the time slots are filling up rather fast, they said, Amara 1568 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:26pm Subject: Q&A5 Dear all, (again!) Just a word about the new page just up today- also my own invention but refering to the Tipitaka saying anusaya are like sediments- in the Q&A section of a set of letters I combined to call 'The Crystal Caudron Set' of my own witch's brew- if anyone wants me to take it out please scream!!!! Amara 1569 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma --- > > Dear Robert, > > If you looked again you will see that I said, and I copy: > Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation > (the > former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has > found > no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. > > I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I > copy: > > written in > > 1947 > > In the preface the venerable says.. > > " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in > netthippakarana > atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two > tikas > for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in > any of > them." > > As far as the Nettipakarana Atthagatha Ajaan Somporn and Khun > Nipat > said no, as I explained earlier. But of course, as we have the Sri lankan venerable himself saying "But they are mentioned only namely" . ...are not mentioned in any". This does not mean that it lies outside dhamma. > > I meant of course we meaning the website people. Who are the "website people"? Perhaps I should > ammend > that to say that we are interested in everything, but we make > the > distinction between what is taught by the Buddha and every > other > teaching, > > In fact Khun Sujin often listens to the Koran programs when > she has > time, they even have cooking lessons, she says. I see a difference between an Abhidhammika commenting on the nettipakarana and the Koran. But what she > teaches are what can always be refered to in the Tipitaka or > the > Commentaries. I myself never could find the patience for that > kind > of teachings, but that's just me, I feel that I could better > umploy > my time. Is not this sri lankan monk refering again and again to the Nettipakarana? I do not mind at all that you do not want to put this on the web: that would only be worthwhile if a comprehensive and easily readable translation had been made and if it all agrees with the Dhamma (one word does not make it wrong). I do not agree with you so quickly grouping it with the Koran and other teachings outside the Dhamma. You do this even before gayan had finished the translation. Robert 1570 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: (unknown) > Do you want the tapes on > mimi-disc or cassette? (is mini disc the digital ones that can > go on the web?) > I am preparing an edited set of my posts but this will be a > while _ I am busy with work projects for the next few weeks) Dear Robert, So far we are just preparing tapes, will find out about discs. Looking forward to seeing your edition (is this the right term?), Amara > -- amara chay wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > > > As an official (yet independent! Does that sound > > contradictory?) > > site for the foundation, I don't think Nina would mind us > > having > > more of her books, already printed by the foundation, in our > > site: > > we are having Abhidhamma in Daily Life digitized, to be put on > > the > > site as soon as it is finished. Followed by Realities and > > Concepts, > > and others! > > > > Sarah, Robert and Alex, would you like to share with us your > > important posting files, and perhaps we could read some of > > them for > > the radio programs in the future, we would like to prepare > > about a > > hundred hours' worth of English tapes ready to start when they > > are. > > The rest would be from our discussions, old and new. Robert, > > your > > collection would be of infinite value, and we might have to > > ask you > > to send some of the MP tapes over again, we are not sure > > whether the > > foundation people lost them or not, Betty thought they > > belonged to > > the foundation and took them there after she had listened to > > them. > > > > Feedback would be greatly appreciated, > > > > Amara > > > > I have tried to add a search engine for internal as well as > > internet > > use to the site, on Robert's kind suggestions, but it might > > take a > > little time before it works, it is on the English Homepage, at > > the > > bottom left. > > > > > > 1571 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:47pm Subject: Re: Vangchaka dhamma > when you say ' anything not in the Tipitaka > (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) remains > outside our scope of interest,' > do you also mean 'atthakatha's (commentries) as well? Dear Gayan, I am sorry, my mistake, I meant to include that atthagatha (commentaries) as well of course. Amara > > > Dear all, > Ajaan Somporn and Khun Nipat, Pali experts of the foundation (the > former the translator of the Nettipakarana being printed), has found > no '38 vangchaka dhamma' in the above text. There are in fact the > 38 samatha kammathana (normally 40, but minus akasa and aloga > kasina) and there are the 'vanga' (literally translated as crooked, > bent, not straight) which is another word for kilesa, and so far no > Pali 'vangchaka'. As we said earlier, anything not in the Tipitaka > (which is already such an infinite wealth of information) remains > outside our scope of interest, but it has been an interesting > experience which made us think and scrutinize and discern precisely > really convincing disguises. We must thank Gayan for this learning > experience and thank the Buddha even more for leaving us such a > comprehensive work with no deviation possible that can be free of > detection. He even left us a guide as to how to react to them, as > Jonothan or someone posted earlier, by ultimately comparing them to > his words in the Tipitaka. And we must feel sorry for those who > misunderstood the teachings and still sorrier for those who > intentionally try to mislead others for whatever reason. I would > prefer not to think of the consequences myself. Any way here was a > lesson to us all, especially me, > Amara 1572 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 6:10pm Subject: Re: Vangchaka dhamma > But of course, as we have the Sri lankan venerable himself > saying "But they are mentioned only namely" . ...are not > mentioned in any". This does not mean that it lies outside > dhamma. Dear Robert, Khun Nipat specificly told me there is no MENTION OF ANY KIND, and if you found some, we, meaning he, Ajaan Somporn and myself, perhaps including others, would like to know please. > > I meant of course we meaning the website people. > > Who are the "website people"? That would be Varee and I for a start. > Perhaps I should > > ammend > > that to say that we are interested in everything, but we make > > the > > distinction between what is taught by the Buddha and every > > other > > teaching, > > > In fact Khun Sujin often listens to the Koran programs when > > she has > > time, they even have cooking lessons, she says. > > I see a difference between an Abhidhammika commenting on the > nettipakarana and the Koran. > > But what she > > teaches are what can always be refered to in the Tipitaka or > > the > > Commentaries. I myself never could find the patience for that > > kind > > of teachings, but that's just me, I feel that I could better > > employ > > my time. > > Is not this sri lankan monk refering again and again to the > Nettipakarana? But the vangchaka? 38 of them? missed by everyone else? > I do not mind at all that you do not want to put this on the > web: that would only be worthwhile if a comprehensive and easily > readable translation had been made and if it all agrees with the > Dhamma (one word does not make it wrong). I do not agree with > you so quickly grouping it with the Koran and other teachings > outside the Dhamma. You do this even before gayan had finished > the translation. Sorry for my short attention span, to think I finished all the Harry Potters in about a week! but I wasn't studying it like I would have been anything in the Tipitaka - and the Commentaries of course. Amara PS. I think I was already losing my interest at the mention that 'so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think that it is'. (to which I replied, 'But perhaps the void we speak about is the ultimate absence of lobha, dosa and moha, the perfect peace beyond our imagination? Because when we think of satisfaction we think of the gratification through the six dvara, none of us can have an idea of the 'every satisfaction' that 'is there' without the six dvara could be like!' at the time) 1573 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 7:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma > Amara > > PS. I think I was already losing my interest at the mention > that 'so > this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think > that it > is'. Dear amara, I searched for this refernce and found it on post 1286 It was in the introduction by Gayan and as I understand it had nothing to do with the book by the Sri lankan monk. Robert 1574 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 7:07pm Subject: Re: Vangchaka dhamma > > PS. I think I was already losing my interest at the mention > > that 'so > > this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think > > that it > > is'. > > Dear amara, > I searched for this refernce and found it on post 1286 > > It was in the introduction by Gayan and as I understand it had > nothing to do with the book by the Sri lankan monk. That's why it is in a PS. 1575 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 7:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma --- amara chay wrote: > > > > PS. I think I was already losing my interest at the > mention > > > that 'so > > > this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas > think > > > that it > > > is'. > > > > Dear amara, > > I searched for this refernce and found it on post 1286 > > > > It was in the introduction by Gayan and as I understand it > had > > nothing to do with the book by the Sri lankan monk. > > > > That's why it is in a PS. I don't follow. If you understood that it was not written by the Sri lankan Abhidhamma monk how could it make you lose interest in his book? Robert > > 1576 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 7:32pm Subject: Re: Vangchaka dhamma > I don't follow. If you understood that it was not written by the > Sri lankan Abhidhamma monk how could it make you lose interest > in his book? Dear Robert, I think all this nit picking is not about the dhamma any more but my personal reasons, I have said all I could about the dhamma and it is impossible to know another's mind. You don't have to agree with me and I fully expect to hear from you the moment vangchaka is found in the Nettipakarana, which is all I care about at the moment. Besides all the internet things, the site, the translations, and everything else. You may keep wondering about such trivia but I would rather you search your copy if the 'Netti' and see if the 38 whatsis is in there! Amara 1577 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 4:03am Subject: important files Dear Amara, >From: "amara chay" > >Sarah, Robert and Alex, would you like to share with us your >important posting files, discussions, I'm glad to hear of all your viriya and latest great projects. Now this may SOUND like a cop-out (read IS a cop out) but I don't keep special important posting files. I print out most to read, hold back a few I PLAN to answer and let the rest go. Why? Because, to me they are all wonderful and invaluable: the short, the long, the questions, the answers, the different views, the laughs, the frustrations and especially the variety of voices and the order of the list. If I ever have time, I'll just go back to the beginning and re-read them all...! As for the ones I plan to answer, well about half of these get answered but as often as not someone else responds with the same point put a lot more succinctly or else it just reaches its 'expire by' date... Robert, your >collection would be of infinite value, and we might have to ask you >to send some of the MP tapes over again, we are not sure whether the >foundation people lost them or not, Betty thought they belonged to >the foundation and took them there after she had listened to them. > maybe a library system at the foundation with labelled tapes.. I noticed the English tapes space was empty when I visited even though there had been official recording of sessions for sometime.. ... Sarah 1578 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 8:05pm Subject: Oops Dear Robert and Amara, I think what has happened here is that the content in my introduction lead to amara to believe that one should be very cautious of my sloppy translations. If I take just a minute for that 'Void' thing , what happened was I felt that I should say something about 'myself' because I received a 'warm' welcome from jonathan and others. In Sri Lanka ,when one is born a buddhist , the 'thingies' in buddhist 'culture' gets attached to his/her life. In ceremonies , in school as just another subject,..etc.. Simply because of this he/she finds it to gather the real value of what buddha said . The word 'nibbana' he/she always hears,.. He/she begins to think that nibbana is a distant thing. In keeping with religion he/she knows that 'nibbana' is not heaven. what stays in his/her mind is nibbana is a less vibrant thing. It is a "void". this was what happened to me , and most of the sri lankan buddhists.(being puthujjanas) But with gathas as in 'udapana sutta' , one can see the real value of aiming for nibbana. :o) for the vancaka dhamma thing, I will investigate further to see whether I have said something I shouldnt have. chiram thitthathu saddhammo, rgds :o) Robert Kirkpatrick on 10/30/2000 05:19:31 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma --- amara chay wrote: > > > > PS. I think I was already losing my interest at the > mention > > > that 'so > > > this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas > think > > > that it > > > is'. > > > > Dear amara, > > I searched for this refernce and found it on post 1286 > > > > It was in the introduction by Gayan and as I understand it > had > > nothing to do with the book by the Sri lankan monk. > > > > That's why it is in a PS. I don't follow. If you understood that it was not written by the Sri lankan Abhidhamma monk how could it make you lose interest in his book? Robert > > 1579 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch - III Dear gayan, Very useful again. --- protectID wrote: > > But sometimes, simply because failing to understand the true > nature of > particular itta and anitta happenings, one stays 'unwavered' > and calm. He > might think that this is his kusala , but that is the sammoha > akusala > dhamma. It is just like nina writes in Cetasikas p281 "ignorance is sometimes called the near enemy of equanimity because one may think there is equanimity when there is actually ignorance(moha)" and p279 "we may think there is equanimity when there is neither like nor dislike of what we see, but at such moments there may be ignorance instead of equanimity" Robert 1580 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 9:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear gayan, Thanks for you for your agreeable remarks which placate the little spat I provoked with Amara (sorry Amara). I have much confidence in you Gayan: I see how strong your faith is in the Tipitika and commentaries- and it is just as Amara has said - they are our real guide. We must test anything we hear against them and our daily life. They point to dhammas that are occuring now. It is not a teacher but the Dhamma left by the Buddha that is of utmost importance. Khun Sujin said to me (did I mention this?) that there was only one teacher and that is the Buddha. I think we will help each other many times in the days and years (lives?) to come. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > Dear Robert and Amara, > > I think what has happened here is that the content in my > introduction lead to > amara to believe that one should be very cautious of my sloppy > translations. > > If I take just a minute for that 'Void' thing , > what happened was I felt that I should say something about > 'myself' because I > received a 'warm' welcome from jonathan and others. > > In Sri Lanka ,when one is born a buddhist , the 'thingies' in > buddhist 'culture' > gets attached to his/her life. > In ceremonies , in school as just another subject,..etc.. > Simply because of this he/she finds it to gather the real > value of what buddha > said . > The word 'nibbana' he/she always hears,.. > He/she begins to think that nibbana is a distant thing. > In keeping with religion he/she knows that 'nibbana' is not > heaven. > what stays in his/her mind is nibbana is a less vibrant thing. > It is a "void". > this was what happened to me , and most of the sri lankan > buddhists.(being > puthujjanas) > But with gathas as in 'udapana sutta' , one can see the real > value of aiming for > nibbana. > > :o) > > for the vancaka dhamma thing, I will investigate further to > see whether I have > said something I shouldnt have. > > chiram thitthathu saddhammo, > > > rgds > > :o) > > > > > 1581 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Robert and Sukin >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala citta >so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is not >so important to be sure about the difference between all the >cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification of >dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , >including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as >sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this will be >a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some extent >but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish nama >from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not >necessarily clear insight into the difference between these >conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this - I >am far from sure about this intricate matter. >Robert You may have noticed, Monday seems to be my main posting day! I have a little more energy than at the end of the week, but the only way I can post anything is by ignoring all the incoming mail for the day which is very hard! On this point above, I meant to say something before...I think it really depends on different accumulations. Just as K.Sujin discusses in 'Realities & Concepts' and quotes from the Abhid. Vibhavani, people are different in terms of which realities they are slow in understanding... (I know we're all slow at understanding all realities, but still there are some differences...altho' there are many 'cheating' traps as we all know by now!). Anyway, the point is that there aren't any rules about which realities are known in which order and which realities will appear to highly developed panna either... One person may have highly developed metta and recognise the characteristic easily and another may do the same for karuna. (I just thought of this example as K.Sujin mentioned she was in the former group once...) As we know, the Buddha taught about the realities in so many different ways and groupings because we all have different interests and accumulations and need to hear the truth accordingly. Some need to hear more about conditions, some need to hear more about rupas etc... Not sure this adds anything to your helpful message which is probably why I held back before! Sarah 1583 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert,Jonothan & friends, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick But the rupa that is colour is one of the >eight inseparable rupas that make up even the tiniest >atom. It is a complex subject even in the fundamental >terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I >do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks >about visible object because this is just what appears >to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or >light or whatever. It is useful to know details of >this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller had > a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he >may have some useful observations. > Yes, it's important to talk A LOT about seeing and visible object. I had hoped to quote from a slightly later post as well where Jonothan mentioned that 'Even if we are given the whole of the Engluish language to describe the v-o, it's difficult to come up with any meaningful description'... and Robert goes on to point out the that when there is an idea of form and shape, this is mind-door activity... For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name such as sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is seen as soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. This is the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is just that which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a little understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no different from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or being known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound becomes sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible objects' are the same. I don't know if this helps anyone, but it helps me to write it and consider more! Sarah 1584 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:11pm Subject: Re: Oops > I think what has happened here is that the content in my introduction lead to > amara to believe that one should be very cautious of my sloppy translations. Dear Gayan, Thank you for trying to put words in my mouth, but I was more wary of your interpretations than your translations. I think that, like a lot of young Thais who memorize names and numbers and passages from the Tipitaka and sound so impressive to non-Pali literates, they don't really understand what they are talking about, and sometimes they teach the wrong things, sometimes without intention, possibly just to impress but the consequences could be graver than they could immagine. So more often it is better to really know the meanings and really learn them, appreciate the real depth and not just so much acquired traditional knowledge because so often that has become traditionalized and no longer the same as in the days where the land was filled with arahantas. In Thailand the language has changed the meanings of Pali a lot too, that is why in a way we are all equal, we all need to learn new meanings to the words of Dhamma. Yes, this simple word, and abhidhamma, and paramatthadhamma, do you know what they mean? Only on Saturday Khun Sujin said they meant the same realities: the truth, what really exists, and under no one's control. The Buddha spent 45 years teaching it, and we should study it respectfully, not use it flippantly to interpret it any way we wish. The dhamma is very precise and can bring infinite good for people who practice it correctly, but only those who study it would know how to do that. It is about the reality one can prove now, there is seeing, sounds, thoughts, like, dislike, all different characteristics to teach us about realities before us. These are all uncontrolable by anyone, hence abhidhamma, paramatthadhamma. And the knowledge accumulated brings even clearer knowledge of things as they really are level by level. These are not things you learn just by being born a Buddhist. Amara > If I take just a minute for that 'Void' thing , > what happened was I felt that I should say something about 'myself' because I > received a 'warm' welcome from jonathan and others. > > In Sri Lanka ,when one is born a buddhist , the 'thingies' in buddhist 'culture' > gets attached to his/her life. > In ceremonies , in school as just another subject,..etc.. > Simply because of this he/she finds it to gather the real value of what buddha > said . > The word 'nibbana' he/she always hears,.. > He/she begins to think that nibbana is a distant thing. > In keeping with religion he/she knows that 'nibbana' is not heaven. > what stays in his/her mind is nibbana is a less vibrant thing. > It is a "void". > this was what happened to me , and most of the sri lankan buddhists.(being > puthujjanas) > But with gathas as in 'udapana sutta' , one can see the real value of aiming for > nibbana. > > :o) > > for the vancaka dhamma thing, I will investigate further to see whether I have > said something I shouldnt have. > > chiram thitthathu saddhammo, > > > rgds > > :o) > > > > 1585 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:12am Subject: Ch Ch Ch choice! Dear Mary, >From: "Mary Reinard" > Within this lump of aggregrates there still is a sense of "I". >I>won't pretend otherwise. If there were not, there would be no reason >for me to be here involving you all with my search for a way out. >While not yet free from a sense of I, then yes, there is a choice. It >is this clinging to convention as reality (whether gross or subtle) >that gives the evolved habits of today, a choice. It doesn't matter >all the books or study or meditation done thus far, until all >clinging is let go of, there remains a sense of "I" and thus I have a >choice. It is the choices I make that will undercut habits or >stregnthen habits, delivering this lump of aggregates further along >or farther astray, the path to liberation. I'm enjoying your contributions very much. may I suggest that it SEEMS ther is a choice, but this is part of the illusion....it's not that there is a choice now and later when there is no sense of 'I' that choice is gone....it is as it is now and will be the same later with or without understanding.... I hope I didn't misunderstand you...pls correct me if so! Sarah > 1586 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Internet Radio-2nd try! Dear Amara, It's 8:20 am in Texas. I'm hearing a man's voice at this moment, in a foreign language that I assume it's Thai. So, it works. However, from time to time, it's silent because of net congestion. Anumodana, AT ===================== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Internet Radio-2nd try! >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:16:14 -0000 > > > >Dear all, > >Please try again, at this address > >infact there is some unintelligible tape on at the moment, earlier >it was another voice which was comprehensible! Ours is at 8 pm or >20:00 hrs but it will probably be Khun Santi speaking (a man's >voice, for those who do not know him!) and in Thai. If it all goes >well, we will be starting with Khun Sujin's half an hour and the >other in English. > >Please try to send feedback as quickly as possible, because the time >slots are filling up rather fast, they said, > >Amara > > > 1587 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:31pm Subject: Re: Internet Radio-2nd try! > It's 8:20 am in Texas. I'm hearing a man's voice at this moment, in a > foreign language that I assume it's Thai. So, it works. However, from time > to time, it's silent because of net congestion. Dear Alex, YIPPEE KAI YI YAY! Thank you so much, Alex! Best news all day! =^_^= =^_^= =^_^= =^_^= =^_^= How's the sound when it's working? Intelligible at least, not a mass of squeaks and groans? Thanks so much, Alex, =^_^= Amara 1588 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 05:41:45 -0800 (PST) > > I have much confidence in you Gayan: I see how strong your >faith is in the Tipitika and commentaries- and it is just as >Amara has said - they are our real guide. We must test anything >we hear against them and our daily life. They point to dhammas >that are occuring now. It is not a teacher but the Dhamma left >by the Buddha that is of utmost importance. Khun Sujin said to >me (did I mention this?) that there was only one teacher and >that is the Buddha. I think we will help each other many times >in the days and years (lives?) to come. >Robert Dear Robert, Gayan, and friends, Yes, we only have one teacher and that's the Buddha. Since the Buddha is no longer with us, our teacher now is the Tipitika and the Commentaries as well as the Sub Commentaries. Thank you. Anumodana, AT 1589 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: Oops (sorry Amara). Dear Robert, It's quite all right! And I always mean what I say! Amara 1590 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Sarah, It adds exactly what needed to be added. Thank you. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert and Sukin > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > >It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala > citta > >so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is > not > >so important to be sure about the difference between all the > >cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification > of > >dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , > >including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as > >sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this will > be > >a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some > extent > >but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish nama > >from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not > >necessarily clear insight into the difference between these > >conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this - > I > >am far from sure about this intricate matter. > >Robert > > You may have noticed, Monday seems to be my main posting day! > I have a > little more energy than at the end of the week, but the only > way I can post > anything is by ignoring all the incoming mail for the day > which is very > hard! > > On this point above, I meant to say something before...I think > it really > depends on different accumulations. Just as K.Sujin discusses > in 'Realities > & Concepts' and quotes from the Abhid. Vibhavani, people are > different in > terms of which realities they are slow in understanding... (I > know we're all > slow at understanding all realities, but still there are some > differences...altho' there are many 'cheating' traps as we all > know by > now!). Anyway, the point is that there aren't any rules about > which > realities are known in which order and which realities will > appear to highly > developed panna either... One person may have highly developed > metta and > recognise the characteristic easily and another may do the > same for karuna. > (I just thought of this example as K.Sujin mentioned she was > in the former > group once...) > > As we know, the Buddha taught about the realities in so many > different ways > and groupings because we all have different interests and > accumulations and > need to hear the truth accordingly. Some need to hear more > about conditions, > some need to hear more about rupas etc... > > Not sure this adds anything to your helpful message which is > probably why I > held back before! > > Sarah > > 1591 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Internet Radio-2nd try! Dear Amara, >How's the sound when it's working? Intelligible at least, not a mass >of squeaks and groans? The sound is very very clear. There's no squeaks or a groans... :-))) AT :-))) 1592 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 4:13am Subject: the world of concepts Dear Gayan, Mike and friends > >Dear Gayan, >Yes, language is important and the Abhidhamma theras of old took >great pains to define dhammas and even concepts. They knew how >easily we misinterpret words; they were so compassionate in >giving us many details and describing dhammas in different ways >in order to help us. I think you have a copy of realities and >Concepts (sujin Boriharnwanaket). On page 37 there is an extract >from the Abhidhammthasangaha (ChVIII section 4). Here concepts >are grouped into 8 types. > In the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (sujin p14. ) concepts are >grouped differently into 6 types eg. Vijjamana pannati -concepts >that make known what is real such as nama and rupa. Other >concepts make known what is not real such person, and there are >other concepts also. These different ways of classifying >concepts help us to understand various aspects- and we must >understand what concept is so as not to mistake concept for >reality. ........ I would just like to add that it really is only by understanding realities that we can know what concepts are. Of course we continue to use concepts in the same way and may say things like: 'Don't think so much', 'give if there's more kusala than akusala', 'cut down the akusala when it arises', 'go to the root of a tree to contemplate/meditate', 'you will see the truth','make more effort', 'develop understanding'....It will depend on the speaker's understanding whether there is any idea of self who should do these things and it depends on the listener's understanding how the advice is taken (i.e. with idea of self or not). The more understanding there is, the more easily we can live in the world of conventional realities without confusion, disturbance and wrong view. Sarah 1593 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:11am Subject: Re: Internet Radio-2nd try! > The sound is very very clear. There's no squeaks or a groans... :-))) > > AT :-))) > Dear Alex, Thanks a billion! We'll be announcing the time slot soon, I hope. Then you will hear the words as well as see them! =^_^= =^_^= Amara 1594 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:37am Subject: Dear Alex, Dear Sarah, I have passed on your condolences to O's regarding her in-laws' death. The body will be cremated today. We had the traditional chanting of the Abhidhammas, and a little less traditional explanation (by Khun Jack) of some of the Abhidhammas. Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin). Khun O said thanks. Anumodhanna. 1595 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:29pm Subject: The ugly void Dear Friends, We recently received a letter from a friend of 'mature' years who has been experiencing some difficulties which some of you may be able to offer some useful comments on. His wife recently had an accident which seems to have triggered off the following thoughts. I might add that he joined only one discussion with Khun Sujin in Hong Kong some years ago and now lives in London. Although he has studied some books on Buddhism generally, he is not very familiar with Pali terms. Pls address any responses to 'Dear N.' which I can then send on by snail mail. I quote parts from his letter below. 'your card and your concern are so welcome. We have had the feeling of being alone together for a long time now...and it is somewhat haunting, but being alone ALONE is a difficult one here (in London).... I have not mentioned this to anyone but B. (his wife) and she isn't much for such dialogue now, but being in essence a secular humanist (certainly I don't believe there is a divine person who looks or should look.... on me with a special kindness (why should that be?), the void is ugly...no one to pray to, even knowing that there is no stimulus/response mechanism. Sorry for the sense of emptiness. The time is tough, but hopefully I'll be tougher, best, N. 1596 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Sarah, Thanks for bringing up this discussion again. As before, I am still trying to learn what they are all about, and any kind of discussions always bring up good points. I am sorry for the sloppy pali and english mix-up that I had; I still haven't looked at Nina's materials (have them on my computer now; thanks to Robert), so I still don't know the right spellings. The "nisaya" that was in my earlier post, as below, is in fact a detailed classification of "upanissaya" pacaya: a mile apart from what my posting implied. There are three detailed classification: Aramanuapanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as sense object Anatarupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya in the same way as anatara pacaya Pakatupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as something that gets accumulated (???: I will search more on this for a better translation). Therefore, for phassa being pacaya for the vedana arising after it, it is not a nissaya pacaya, but it is a upanissaya pacaya. For the reference materials that I have regarding Nissaya pacaya, there are only three detailed classifications: > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0 > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) I don't have the fourth one in the materials, and my understanding of pali is so superficial that I can't even guess what the fourth one is: > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on the 4th. Thanks for the explanation for the pali: they are most helpful. I will search Nina's book to see if I can find more English references to Pacatupanissaya pacaya. Anumodhanna. ps: I have heard the recorded materials (by A. Santi) that mentioned that the hetu pacaya was mentioned first because of its importance. I don't remember how he justified that statements. My interpretation (please be careful) is that the javana cittas are constantly accumulating the hetus, both kusala and aksuala, and could cause patisanthi (rebirth) (with other pacaya also in play, of course) as either Kusala, akusala, or ahetuka vipaka further conditioning the opportunity and possibilities of accumulating panna in the the resulted life. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa > >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object) > >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara) > >possibly asevana (repeating in javana) > >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise) > >possibly aramana (as sense object) > >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?) > >possibly natti (not there?) > >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?) > > > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0 > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) > > 1. can only be heartbase > 2. arising together and dependent on > 3. conditioning statew must be a material base > 4. a mix up > > pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied > v.carefully. > > One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about > the > particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered > the > most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too. > 1597 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:24am Subject: Virus Alert Hello, Everyone, I received a worm virus (Win32/MTX.Attachment.Worm) from Mary's mailbox, I THINK via this server (I deleted it so quickly, then again from my 'recyle' bin that I'm not certain now). Please be highly suspicious of any attachments! Regards, Mike 1598 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:36pm Subject: Karaoke again Dear friends, well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. Friends in Bkk, you must be sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the following (or just ignore it)... Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there have been reports about naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would dress up in disguise (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. When caught, his excuse was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual discussion.... well if he bumps into Robert there, it could even be true! apologies for this frivolity! Sarah 1599 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:51am Subject: Dear Kom, Did you get the message about the internet radio, at ? Please check it out, and send us word. Please look for my note off-list too, Thanks in advance, Amara 1600 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:50am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear list-members, Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to. I'm only familiar with a few of the names of the participants here such as Robert, Mike, and Mary (and Theresa, if she is the same one on D-L). Since I have been on this list only a short time, I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing by quoting the so-called 38 va~ncaka dhammas that Gayan is translating for us. This is the first time I have heard about them and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na. I have included this mainly for reference and the correct Pali spellings. 1. appa.tikkuulasa~n~naamukhena kaamacchando va~ncetiiti yujjati. 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati. 3. samaadhimukhena thinamiddha.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 6. ubhayapakkhasantiira.namukhena vicikicchaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 7. i.t.thaani.t.thasamupekkhanamukhena sammoho va~ncetiiti yujjati. 8. atta~n~nutaamukhena attani aparibhavane maano va~ncetiiti yujjati. 9. viima.msaamukhenahetupatiruupakapariggahena micchaadi.t.thi va~ncetiiti yujjati. 10. virattataapatiruupakenasattesu adayaapannataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 11. anu~n~naatapa.tisevanapatiruupataaya kaamasukhallikaanuyogo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 12. aajiivapaarisuddhipatiruupataaya asa.mvibhaagasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 13. sa.mvibhaagasiilataapatiruupataaya micchaajiivo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 14. asa.msaggavihaaritaapatiruupataaya asa"ngahasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 15. sa"ngahasiilataapatiruupataaya ananulomikasa.msaggo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 16. saccavaaditaapatiruupataaya pisu.navaacaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 17. apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 18. piyavaaditaapatiruupataaya caa.tukamyataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 19. mitabhaa.nitaapatiruupataaya asammodanasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 20. sammodanasiilataapatiruupataaya maayaa saa.theyya~nca va~ncetiiti yujjati. 21. niggayhavaaditaapatiruupataaya pharusavaacataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 22. paapagarahitaapatiruupataaya paravajjaanupassitaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 23. kulaanuddhayataapatiruupataaya kulamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 24. aavaasacira.t.thitikaamataamukhena aavaasamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 25. dhammaparibandhaparihara.namukhena dhammamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 26. dhammadesanaabhiratimukhena bhassaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 27. apharusavaacataaga.naanuggahakara.namukhena sa"nga.nikaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 28. pu~n~nakaamataapatiruupataaya kammaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 29. sa.mvegapatiruupena cittasantaapo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 30. saddhaalutaapatiruupataaya aparikkhataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 31. viima.msanaapatiruupena assaddhiya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 32. attaadhipateyyapatiruupena garuuna.m anusaasaniyaa appadakkhi.naggaahitaa a~ncetiiti yujjati. 33. dhammaadhipateyyapatiruupena sabrahmacaariisu agaarava.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 34. lokaadhipateyyapatiruupena attani dhamme ca paribhavo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 35. mettaayanaamukhena raago va~ncetiiti yujjati. 36. karu.naayanaapatiruupena soko a~ncetiiti yujjati. 37. muditaavihaarapatiruupena pahaaso va~ncetiiti yujjati. 38. upekkhaavihaarapatiruupena kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. -- from Nettippakara.na-a.t.thakathaa, p. 90 (Myanmar edition) Best wishes, Jim Anderson, a Canadian living in rural Ontario 1601 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Mike is good, Ma'am! (What a can of worms I've open with my verbal habits...!) Your Friend, Mike! --- A T wrote: > Dear Khun Amara, > > Yes, Ma'am. We are born of habits. I'll try my > very best to call you > Amara, and please call me Alex. Thank you, Ma'am. > > I bet Khun Mike is glad that we continue to call > him Mike. Is it right, > Sir? :-))) > > Alex :-))) > > 1602 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Q&A5 Excellent, Amara, I found these letters very helpful and am delighted they'll be together where I can refer to them--without storing them in my email directory! Thanks again, Mike --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear all, (again!) > > Just a word about the new page just up today- also > my own invention > but refering to the Tipitaka saying anusaya are like > sediments- in > the Q&A section of a > set of letters I > combined to call 'The Crystal Caudron Set' of my own > witch's brew- > if anyone wants me to take it out please scream!!!! > > Amara > > > 1603 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma Dear Amara and Robert, I want to express my appreciation for the extreme care you're both showing with regard to the instruction we can receive here. Brava, and bravo! By the way, Amara--I read all the Harry Potters in a week, too--the last three in three days! HAH! (What a delightful waste of time...!) Mike 1604 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Friends, Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware! Mike --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear friends, > > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. > Friends in Bkk, you must be > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the > following (or just ignore > it)... > > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there > have been reports about > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > dress up in disguise > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > When caught, his excuse > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > discussion.... well if he bumps > into Robert there, it could even be true! > > apologies for this frivolity! > > Sarah > > > 1605 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > The more understanding there is, the more easily we > can live in the world of > conventional realities without confusion, > disturbance and wrong view. Thanks, Sarah, This pretty much sums up my present working assumption, thanks to you all. Recently, Robert(?) encouraged the submission of 'real-life' examples--so here goes: The other day, I was taking a sauna (which I often do, when I have time). I followed a stint in the sauna with one in a VERY cold shower. 'I have' a lifelong dislike of cold, and can always expect quite an onslaught of dosa during this phase of the sauna experience. The dosa arose, along with plenty of dukkhavedana, but then I noticed something else--there were long moments, of varying duration when I KNEW that dosa was NOT arising--and others when I KNEW that neither sukkha-nor-dukkha-vedana was arising--i.e., that 'I' was aware of their non-arising at the moments of their non-arising. There was nothing else particularly remarkable about these moments, except the certainty that these realities were NOT arising (followed by further moments when they certainly were arising again). Of course this was followed by retrospection again, though immediately after the fact; still, it seemed significant because (for once) the retrospection was (I THINK) of the memory of the arising and subsiding of realities, rather than the memory of unrealities (ideas, concepts etc). Or was it just reflection of a mind-object again? Comments, please? Thanks in advance, Mike 1607 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear friends, I think that in Thailand or anywhere else, there are 2 types of monks: the ones who are on the Path, and the ones who *pretend* to be monks for whatever reasons. It's the 2nd type is the ones who cause the misunderstanding in the public. I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they have ID to prove that they are really monks. From time to time, a police may check any monk for his ID. Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we still can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look around when walking. Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period. In fact, my monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. Young ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect them to be laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for marriage. Is it true, my dear Thai friends? Alex Tran >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:53:19 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Friends, > >Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? >This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware! > >Mike > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. > > Friends in Bkk, you must be > > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the > > following (or just ignore > > it)... > > > > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there > > have been reports about > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > > dress up in disguise > > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > > When caught, his excuse > > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > > discussion.... well if he bumps > > into Robert there, it could even be true! > > > > apologies for this frivolity! > > > > Sarah 1608 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Friends, I think this incident serves as a good reminder for "us" to press forward with the development of panna. Although monks, since Buddha time, found different reasons to ordain, not all of which led to Nibhana. Somehow, it feels like the recent years have been disastrous for the Thai sangha in term of public credibility (maybe it has always been like this, I was just never around to see it). This, in addition to the societal movement toward materialism and even more sensuality, isn't a good condition for people to discover buddhism and learn realities. For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today than tomorrow. Who knows if I am still around tomorrow. Even if I come back as human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what state it will be in. It's only been 2500 yrs, and things have gotten this worse. Just imagine what it will be a thousand years from now, even a couple of hundred years. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? > This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware! > > Mike > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. > > Friends in Bkk, you must be > > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the > > following (or just ignore > > it)... > > > > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there > > have been reports about > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > > dress up in disguise > > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > > When caught, his excuse > > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > > discussion.... well if he bumps > > into Robert there, it could even be true! > > > > apologies for this frivolity! > > > > Sarah > > > > 1609 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, These notorious monks are in fact ordained. The IDs wouldn't have differentiate these monks from the people who just dress up. A Thai man is not required to become a monk temporarily: it is traditionally encouraged/forced for many reasons including: 1) It is considered by some to be the rite of passage, to teach young men moralities 2) It is misunderstood that the parents will gain merit resulting from their son becoming ordained I personally only met a monk who told a story along the same line of what happened to him, and hear many other stories in the way you would hear about urban legends. All in all, though, they are just that: stories. --- A T wrote: > I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they > have ID > to prove that they are really monks. From time to time, a police may > check > any monk for his ID. Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we > still > can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look > around > when walking. > > Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period. In > fact, my > monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. > Young > ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect > them to be > laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for > > marriage. > 1610 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Kom, Of course you're right, and I don't mean to make light of a serious issue. But there is a bright side to this--if those Thai people who are fed up with corrupt monks begin to find and put their support behind the good monks who do still exist, and, better yet, to direct their support towards direct understanding of realities (and to those who teach this way), this could be a really good development for the 'Sasana Thai'. Still, your point is well-taken. The sasana (if I understand correctly) is in a constant state of deterioration and the longer we wait, the less opportunity, presumably, we'll have to hear the real dhammavinaya. Regards, Mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I think this incident serves as a good reminder for > "us" to press > forward > with the development of panna. Although monks, > since Buddha time, > found > different reasons to ordain, not all of which led to > Nibhana. Somehow, > it > feels like the recent years have been disastrous for > the Thai sangha in > term > of public credibility (maybe it has always been like > this, I was just > never around to see it). This, in addition to the > societal movement > toward materialism and even more sensuality, isn't a > good condition for > people to discover buddhism and learn realities. > > For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today > than tomorrow. > Who knows if I am still around tomorrow. Even if I > come back as > human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what > state it will be in. > It's only been 2500 yrs, and things have gotten > this worse. Just > imagine what it will be a thousand years from now, > even a couple of > hundred years. > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism > here? > > This could very well lead to a > Karaokevada--beware! > > > > Mike > > 1611 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure wrote: > Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists > of different > cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away > rapidly. These > are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. > let us consider a couple of thinking. > 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of > thinking > that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation > or your > no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and > cetasikas. > The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. > 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or > not). Again > same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the > thinking process > are real but the object, mother and father, is > concept- not > real. > 3. If your mother and father were right in front of > you now > (talking to you) and you think of them, again the > object is > concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. > The colours > are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father > is concept. > Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is > number 2 and > especially number 3 that in daily life we get > confused by. No, numbers 2 and 3 are also quite clear, thanks (though I did like the illustration in 1). > Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for > object, not > concepts. Right. Got that, now, and I think I know the source of my confusion. I was mistaking the (conceptual and retrospective) understanding of the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and emptiness of unrealities for insight into realities. > Does this mean we should try not to think > of concepts? Not anymore! > Some would have us do this but this is not the > middle way. All > the arahants thought of concepts but they could > never confuse > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand > dhammas > directly even during the processes of thinking that > take > concepts for objects. Really! Interesting... > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise > and > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not > arise > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only > realities have > actual characteristics and functions and arise and > pass away. Thanks, still don't quite 'get' that one, but at least I'll be less likely to mistake the retrospective understanding of unrealities for real sati in future... Thanks again, Mike 1612 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- protectID wrote: > You have been doing a lot > of putting down > and picking up lately! Well, sure--what are you going to do when you've been carrying around a big load of s--t all your life, and a nice bunch of people dump a load of pure gold at your feet... > We all have an idea in our mind of what it must be > like to be > enlightened. And we all have ideas of what needs > doing to become > like that. On both scores our ideas are likely to > be deeply flawed. > It is a matter of exposing these ideas to the hard > glare of scrutiny - > our own and others' - with the aid of a better and > better > understanding of the teachings, even if only at an > intellectual level. Yes, I'm glad of this, as I don't seem to see any other way to proceed... > On the question of intellectual understanding (ie > understanding at a > theoretical level), note the difference between this > and > intellectualisation. Seeking to clarify the proper > basis for the > arising of awareness so that awareness can arise at > the present > moment can hardly be called intellectualisation. Yes, that's fair enough--intellectualization seems usually to have the characteristic of building up elaborate structures--not at all the same thing as acquiring understanding, i.e. putting down useless structure and acquiring something like tools for discernment (even though in retrospect)... > Nor is it something > we are likely to be overdoing (although that would > not be impossible). I'll worry about that in the unlikely event that it becomes a serious threat...! > Actually, even when understanding at an intellectual > level has been > firmly established, we need to be continually > reminded of the > realitiies appearing at the present moment, because > the natural > tendency is to think that something else is more > worth knowing. So > in this sense we are forever getting back to basics > and starting over > (or, to use your analogy, moving out of state). > Like it or not, > that's how it must be! Well, I like it better than I would have expected. Actually, it feels good to be doing some honest work for a change... Thanks as always, Mike 1613 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... --- A T wrote: > I'm a slow learner. Why do I doubt that? > That's > why Sarah (?) could say that she saw the big > progress you have made since > joining the group. I think I've just had a little more practice talking about this stuff. Making my'self' sound smart is a long and carefully practiced specialty of 'mine'--don't be fooled! > Like you, the books written by Ajaan Sujin (I > just cannot call her Khun > Sujin any longer, even though I don't know what Khun > means exactly) and NVG > are on the top lists of priority among my books. I just finished BIDL today--what a book! It's a primer, but I think it may be the best book on dhamma I've ever read (pali texts aside, of course!), and there's enough material in there to re-read for a year. But I can't (and won't) wait to get on to the next one... > With recent learning, I > see that my formal meditation time may be integrated > into daily activities > better than before. Brava! I hope to, maybe, manage the same thing someday... > Most importantly, I realize > that whatever happens will > happen because of the uncontrollable conditions, and > absolutely there's no > Self involved. ...then you're way ahead of me, sister... > May you continue growing in Dhamma. I'm looking > forward to read more of > your wonderful posts. Back at you Alex, and thanks, as always... Mike 1614 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... --- A T wrote: > Mike is very polite. Sometimes, he's so polite > that I feel he's pulling > my leg. :-))) Not at all! I have far to much respect for that splendid limb, Madame... > Just joking, Mike. Me too! By the way, I'm glad to know that Ajahn (or Acharn) comes from achariya. You're all my achariya here, so I guess, mainly, I'll just keep calling you all 'sir' and 'ma'am'--hope you don't mind--just 'my' anusaya, I guess... Regards, Mike 1615 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:56am Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just > recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to > join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working > directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects > of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related > treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in > the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to. > I'm only familiar with a few of the names of the participants here such as > Robert, Mike, and Mary (and Theresa, if she is the same one on D-L). Dear Jim, Welcome to the list, I guess I just missed your posting last night, signing off just before! I think we are rather the lucky ones to have someone with such a facility to check things for us in the future! > Since I have been on this list only a short time, I'm not sure if I'm > doing the right thing by quoting the so-called 38 va~ncaka dhammas that > Gayan is translating for us. I for one am very grateful that you did, and everyone else would be interested to know as well, I am sure. I am printing out your list for them now. This is the first time I have heard about them > and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the commentary on > the Nettippakara.na. So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references given: 'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." ' **** It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have them but the tika DO? Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, and which one is the one containing the list? > I have included this mainly for reference and the > correct Pali spellings. > > 1. appa.tikkuulasa~n~naamukhena kaamacchando va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 3. samaadhimukhena thinamiddha.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 6. ubhayapakkhasantiira.namukhena vicikicchaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 7. i.t.thaani.t.thasamupekkhanamukhena sammoho va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 8. atta~n~nutaamukhena attani aparibhavane maano va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 9. viima.msaamukhenahetupatiruupakapariggahena micchaadi.t.thi va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 10. virattataapatiruupakenasattesu adayaapannataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 11. anu~n~naatapa.tisevanapatiruupataaya kaamasukhallikaanuyogo va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 12. aajiivapaarisuddhipatiruupataaya asa.mvibhaagasiilataa va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 13. sa.mvibhaagasiilataapatiruupataaya micchaajiivo va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 14. asa.msaggavihaaritaapatiruupataaya asa"ngahasiilataa va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 15. sa"ngahasiilataapatiruupataaya ananulomikasa.msaggo va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 16. saccavaaditaapatiruupataaya pisu.navaacaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 17. apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 18. piyavaaditaapatiruupataaya caa.tukamyataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 19. mitabhaa.nitaapatiruupataaya asammodanasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 20. sammodanasiilataapatiruupataaya maayaa saa.theyya~nca va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 21. niggayhavaaditaapatiruupataaya pharusavaacataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 22. paapagarahitaapatiruupataaya paravajjaanupassitaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 23. kulaanuddhayataapatiruupataaya kulamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 24. aavaasacira.t.thitikaamataamukhena aavaasamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 25. dhammaparibandhaparihara.namukhena dhammamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 26. dhammadesanaabhiratimukhena bhassaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 27. apharusavaacataaga.naanuggahakara.namukhena sa"nga.nikaaraamataa > va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 28. pu~n~nakaamataapatiruupataaya kammaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 29. sa.mvegapatiruupena cittasantaapo va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 30. saddhaalutaapatiruupataaya aparikkhataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 31. viima.msanaapatiruupena assaddhiya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 32. attaadhipateyyapatiruupena garuuna.m anusaasaniyaa > appadakkhi.naggaahitaa a~ncetiiti yujjati. > 33. dhammaadhipateyyapatiruupena sabrahmacaariisu agaarava.m va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 34. lokaadhipateyyapatiruupena attani dhamme ca paribhavo va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 35. mettaayanaamukhena raago va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 36. karu.naayanaapatiruupena soko a~ncetiiti yujjati. > 37. muditaavihaarapatiruupena pahaaso va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 38. upekkhaavihaarapatiruupena kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandataa > va~ncetiiti yujjati. > > -- from Nettippakara.na-a.t.thakathaa, p. 90 (Myanmar edition) > > Best wishes, > Jim Anderson, a Canadian living in rural Ontario Anumodana, I look forward to your participations very much! Amara 1616 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Amara, atthakatha = commentary tika = sub-commentary :o) netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha, Thanks Robert! Thanks Jim! Thanks amara! 1617 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) If I may add to this: Thank you again Gayan, Jim and Amara! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Amara, > > atthakatha = commentary > > tika = sub-commentary > > :o) > > netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary > > there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha, > > Thanks Robert! > Thanks Jim! > Thanks amara! > > > > 1618 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Thanks ALL! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Amara, > > atthakatha = commentary > > tika = sub-commentary > > :o) > > netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana > commenary > > there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the > atthakatha, > > Thanks Robert! > Thanks Jim! > Thanks amara! > > > > 1619 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:03am Subject: Re: Karaoke again > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > > dress up in disguise > > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > > When caught, his excuse > > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > > discussion.... well if he bumps > > into Robert there, it could even be true! Dear all, If this is the same case I heard of, he is also being charged with impersonation of an officer because he was disguised as an army general! Amara 1620 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna > > Comments, please? > Dear Mike, Bravo to you! Vicikiccha can only be eradicated by panna of the sotapanna level, since the succession of citta is so formidable fast, in fact so fast it is a wonder that awareness can arise at all! But with the proper conditions, anything can happen, so again, Anumodana, Amara 1621 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:13am Subject: Re: Karaoke again > For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today than tomorrow. > Who knows if I am still around tomorrow. Even if I come back as > human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what state it will be in. Dear Kom, Anumodana for your mention of maranasati, Amara PS. please look for my private note off-list 1622 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:28am Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > atthakatha = commentary > > tika = sub-commentary > > :o) > > netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary > > there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha, Dear Gayan, Thanks for the obvious- Hope you don't mind my checking with Jim! Amara 1623 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure > > > Some would have us do this but this is not the > > middle way. All > > the arahants thought of concepts but they could > > never confuse > > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand > > dhammas > > directly even during the processes of thinking that > > take > > concepts for objects. > > Really! Interesting... > Actually I will have to be more precise here. The cittas are arising and passing away - billions in a split second. So, in between the cittas that are repeatedly taking concept for an object panna and sati can arise and understand something of this. The actual moments that there is concept for object there cannot be at the same time satipatthana. Is that clear? Thanks Robert 1624 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > > > Some would have us do this but this is not the > > > middle way. All > > > the arahants thought of concepts but they could > > > never confuse > > > concept for reality. Panna and sati can > understand > > > dhammas > > > directly even during the processes of thinking > that > > > take > > > concepts for objects. > > > > Really! Interesting... > > > Actually I will have to be more precise here. The > cittas are > arising and passing away - billions in a split > second. So, in > between the cittas that are repeatedly taking > concept for an > object panna and sati can arise and understand > something of > this. > The actual moments that there is concept for object > there cannot > be at the same time satipatthana. Is that clear? Yes--and thanks! Mike 1625 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again I see your point Mike. I think the most dangerous ones are not those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one takes them seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep vinaya but who mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most likely to lead us astray. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > Of course you're right, and I don't mean to make light > of a serious issue. But there is a bright side to > this--if those Thai people who are fed up with corrupt > monks begin to find and put their support behind the > good monks who do still exist, and, better yet, to > direct their support towards direct understanding of > realities (and to those who teach this way), this > could be a really good development for the 'Sasana > Thai'. > > Still, your point is well-taken. The sasana (if I > understand correctly) is in a constant state of > deterioration and the longer we wait, the less > opportunity, presumably, we'll have to hear the real > dhammavinaya. > > Regards, > > Mike > > 1626 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Jim, Much merit for giving the timely reference. [ I couldn't find an english source where vangcaka dhammas appear, I asked for one from robert . Eventhough he didnt have one , he told me the interest he rightaway had in this.] Dear Amara As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference. I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary ) rgds. 1627 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again wrote: > I think the most dangerous > ones are not > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one > takes them > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep > vinaya but who > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most > likely to lead us > astray. At least some of us! Interesting, it's kind of back to the Karaoke. That is, that the really insidious danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad fortune is like a spear in your face. Good fortune is like a spear at the back of your neck." This is similar, I think... Thanks, as always, Robert, Mike 1628 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:10pm Subject: Ch - IV 9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi vanceti. kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a very useful 'tool' . This is praised by the buddha. The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self. Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated . Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to see many conditions that supports his ditthi. [ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see supporting 'facts' for it.... when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting 'facts' for it... when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he will................................ when one has anattasanna............................... when one believes in kamma , rebirth................... when one does not believe in kamma, rebirth...................... ] So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa kusala dhamma, it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena) 10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti. kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness to spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc. This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for them but seeing the danger in the samsara. (greater samsara bhaya ) the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , responsibility for others. One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this akusala as the former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala. The point here is to know the kusala as the kusala , and the akusala as the akusala.So one cannot get cheated by akusala. contd. 1629 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:24pm Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference. > > I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary ) Dear Gayan, As usual you seem to have difficulty with your references, I can only copy one of yours as they can so easily contradict themselves: The complete list is from the commentary on > the Nettippakara.na. So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references given: 'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." ' **** It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have them but the tika DO? Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, and which one is the one containing the list? Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of citta arise as you write these things? Or the cetasika that accompany them? Amara 1630 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear amara, Please clarify again. (i think this is useful to the others in the list ) I said " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." and Jim said " The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na. So what is the contradiction here? you said "Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of citta arise as you write these things? Or the cetasika that accompany them?" I think all in the group can learn a lot of things from wahts happening here rgds "amara chay" on 10/31/2000 10:24:21 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference. > > I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary ) Dear Gayan, As usual you seem to have difficulty with your references, I can only copy one of yours as they can so easily contradict themselves: The complete list is from the commentary on > the Nettippakara.na. So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references given: 'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." ' **** It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have them but the tika DO? Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, and which one is the one containing the list? Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of citta arise as you write these things? Or the cetasika that accompany them? Amara 1631 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch - IV Dear gayan, Thank you again. See my comments below. --- protectID wrote: > > 9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi > vanceti. > > kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a > very useful > 'tool' . > This is praised by the buddha. > The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self. > Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated . > > Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to > see many > conditions that supports his ditthi. > [ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see > supporting 'facts' for > it.... > when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting > 'facts' for it... > when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he > will................................ > when one has anattasanna............................... > when one believes in kamma , rebirth................... > when one does not believe in kamma, > rebirth...................... ] > > So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa > kusala dhamma, > it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena) This is just so daily life isn't it! Mike wrote to me about the same thing off-list recently - about how we rationalize and find all sorts of ways to justify our beliefs. It is a very hard one to detect indeed. > > 10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti. > > kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness > to > spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc. > This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for > them but seeing > the danger in the samsara. > (greater samsara bhaya ) > > the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , > responsibility for > others. > One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this > akusala as the > former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala. > I certainly know this one! I was very irresonsible (still am) family wise but could always justify it to myself as "detachment". But it is simply selfishness. Once again thanks for bringing all this to our attention. I hope Jim will have time (from time to time) to add little bits too. When you finish it all could you send it to me as a file and I will print it out for Nina. I think she will enjoy it. Robert 1632 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:10pm Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > Please clarify again. > (i think this is useful to the others in the list ) > > I said " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in > netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There > are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not > mentioned in any of them." > > and Jim said > > " > The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na. > > So what is the contradiction here? Dear Gayan, The Nettipakarana is in itself a guide to commentators so I suppose that you are right not to consider it one of the direct commentators to the Tipitaka, although I think that people are right in considering it one also since it is the guide to explaining the Tipitaka, complete with quotations and explanations. You are right that it is a learning experience, what do you think, Jim? Amara 1633 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:45pm Subject: Internet Radio Dear all, Starting on Nov. 2, at 2am BKK time, will be having a program of recorded dhamma talks by Khun Sujin in Thai. I hope you might be able to hear some of it, depending of your respective time zones, and that you would please send feedback as usual, Amara 1634 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:11am Subject: welcome! Dear Jim, >From: "Jim Anderson" >Dear list-members, > >Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just >recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to >join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working >directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects >of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related >treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in >the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to. A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found your way here (thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your interest (expertise i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune and we all look forward to hearing plenty from you. If you feel like give a little more detail such as where you're based and how you developed such a strong interest in pali and abhidhamma I know we'd all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any more details about your work with Pali. Sarah 1635 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear mike, I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the monk , who was disguising as a colonel, Deterioration is everywhere, It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - when one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at you in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha have explained why this will happen in the future. I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will be a stage where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be distinguished from laypeople ) :o) , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the merit gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha lead by arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) :o) rgds. "m. nease" on 10/31/2000 10:03:22 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again wrote: > I think the most dangerous > ones are not > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one > takes them > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep > vinaya but who > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most > likely to lead us > astray. At least some of us! Interesting, it's kind of back to the Karaoke. That is, that the really insidious danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad fortune is like a spear in your face. Good fortune is like a spear at the back of your neck." This is similar, I think... Thanks, as always, Robert, Mike 1637 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Gayan, Mike and all, Sorry I pushed the wrong button and fired off my last post early. When we pay respect to a monk with a citta that has confidence in the triple gem it is a very good thing even if the monk is not worthy. If we see him as a representative of the ariyan sangha it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, he can still be arammana pacaya for very respectful kusala citta. Just like when we pay respects to a Buddha image - it is not the image that is important it is always the citta. Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa) sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help anything. As you explained - we have to expect deterioration - the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala - no other way. Robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to > the monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent > that - when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh > ..look at you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how > buddha have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will > be a stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that > the merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the > sangha lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > 1638 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Robert, what actually was is , as soon as a monk was seen the dosa used to arise (not even knowing whether he was good or bad ) thats what dosa does to a mind and a lot of maana too, used to feel like not worshipping them, ( and the associated cheat excuse was - i will worship the worthy monks , when i find worthy ones) ( being selective in worshipping others is a skill , but the mana did cheat appearing like that) :o) rgds Robert Kirkpatrick on 10/31/2000 03:36:02 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Gayan, Mike and all, Sorry I pushed the wrong button and fired off my last post early. When we pay respect to a monk with a citta that has confidence in the triple gem it is a very good thing even if the monk is not worthy. If we see him as a representative of the ariyan sangha it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, he can still be arammana pacaya for very respectful kusala citta. Just like when we pay respects to a Buddha image - it is not the image that is important it is always the citta. Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa) sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help anything. As you explained - we have to expect deterioration - the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala - no other way. Robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to > the monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent > that - when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh > ..look at you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how > buddha have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will > be a stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that > the merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the > sangha lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > > 1639 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Deart Gauan, >From: protectID > >Dear Robert and Amara, > >I think what has happened here is that the content in my introduction lead >to I apologise for the delay in responding, Gayan, but I'm usually running a few steps behind everyone else.... just keep doing your best according to your understanding... there will always be disagreements and skirmishes. Perhaps it's better that they come out into the open and we can all see our own accumulations better at these times! > >If I take just a minute for that 'Void' thing , >what happened was I felt that I should say something about 'myself' because >I >received a 'warm' welcome from jonathan and others. Yes, we like newcomers to this list (probably seems a lifetime ago to you now!) to give some detail about themselves and their understanding of the teaching, so it's easier to know where people are 'coming from' with their views. Thank you. > >In Sri Lanka ,when one is born a buddhist , the 'thingies' in buddhist >'culture' >gets attached to his/her life. >In ceremonies , in school as just another subject,..etc.. I have to admit to some envy for those growing up with the 'thingies' above.... but then we always wish for what we didn't have as a youngster and it really comes down to the understanding..... like you say, one can become complacent and think one is following a good Buddhist lifestyle whereas one may just be following the ceremonies and rituals.... (I still prefer the Buddhist ceremonies tho'.... and right now I have a story in my head while I write of the Vesak days and pirit ceremonies etc in Sri lanka). >Simply because of this he/she finds it to gather the real value of what >buddha >said . >The word 'nibbana' he/she always hears,.. >He/she begins to think that nibbana is a distant thing. >In keeping with religion he/she knows that 'nibbana' is not heaven. >what stays in his/her mind is nibbana is a less vibrant thing. >It is a "void". >this was what happened to me , and most of the sri lankan buddhists.(being >puthujjanas) >But with gathas as in 'udapana sutta' , one can see the real value of >aiming for >nibbana. > In reality, all any of us can do is to have a conceptual understanding, a story about nibbana....we study more and the story becomes more accurate, but it's still conceptual and cannot be experienced by us now. How can we imagine what it is like to have highly developed wisdom and no akusala.....How can we really appreciate the real value of nibbana? >chiram thitthathu saddhammo, pls feed us baby portions of Pali (w/translation!).. s'time in the 70s I won a Commonwealth scholarship to do a higher degree in Pali at Peradiniya U in Kandy... then the Sri lankan Govt changed and it was all cancelled...and life took another turn... unfortunately w/little Pali! Sarah 1641 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:42am Subject: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit >Dear Alex, Dear Sarah, > >I have passed on your condolences to O's regarding her in-laws' death. >The body will be cremated today. > >We had the traditional chanting of the Abhidhammas, and a little less >traditional explanation (by Khun Jack) of some of the Abhidhammas. sounds very useful >Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old >Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin). would you elaborate on this...am I being dense? Is this a book written by A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? If it is the former, has it been translated? Thanks Sarah . 1642 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >The other day, I was taking a sauna (which I often do, >when I have time). I followed a stint in the sauna >with one in a VERY cold shower. 'I have' a lifelong >dislike of cold, and can always expect quite an >onslaught of dosa during this phase of the sauna >experience. The dosa arose, along with plenty of >dukkhavedana, but then I noticed something else--there >were long moments, of varying duration when I KNEW >that dosa was NOT arising--and others when I KNEW that >neither sukkha-nor-dukkha-vedana was arising--i.e., >that 'I' was aware of their non-arising at the moments >of their non-arising. There was nothing else >particularly remarkable about these moments, except >the certainty that these realities were NOT arising >(followed by further moments when they certainly were >arising again). > >Of course this was followed by retrospection again, >though immediately after the fact; still, it seemed >significant because (for once) the retrospection was >(I THINK) of the memory of the arising and subsiding >of realities, rather than the memory of unrealities >(ideas, concepts etc). Or was it just reflection of a >mind-object again? > >Comments, please? Well it sounds to me that you are becoming a person with a name and a daily life - work, showers etc and this shows that your practice is becoming more and more a part of daily life... the shower can be your 'root of the tree' and as suitable place as any to understand a little more about those realities.... and yes, we think we have dosa for a long stretch or'felt ill' all day when in fact there were so many different experiences....but as you found, even dosa has its limits! So many other realities in between! It seems there was some understanding at some level during the shower scene (sounds like the Hitchcock movie) but the retrospection afterwards and memory of arising etc is just thinking... there has to be a lot of very clear understanding of a reality and of namas distinct from rupas before there is any question of the arising as anything other than thinking..... Keep up the daily life examples...... remember I said I give a level I pass when you ask qus here or share in a post, level 2 is when you drag in others and now you've reached level 3 which is when one's job and daily chores are not seen as an obstacle to progress! Congrats! (btw, the latter frivolity is WAY outside the Tipitaka!) Sarah P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the experience of coldness through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 moments of dosa...Khun Sujin used to say to me whe I had a nasty cold, just a moment of unpleasant bodily feeling and then all those many moments of dosa are the real problem... looks like you don't need to be told! 1643 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 8:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Sarah, I am really comfortable here in this egroup ( thanks )! you know, this hyper text transfer protocol is really stateless, they will only reflect what's there in one's own mind. :o) you said "In reality, all any of us can do is to have a conceptual understanding, a story about nibbana....we study more and the story becomes more accurate, but it's still conceptual and cannot be experienced by us now. How can we imagine what it is like to have highly developed wisdom and no akusala.....How can we really appreciate the real value of nibbana?" Of course, Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should aim for the highest goal is a type of panna itself i think. because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) you said "s'time in the 70s I won a Commonwealth scholarship to do a higher degree in Pali at Peradiniya U in Kandy... then the Sri lankan Govt changed and it was all cancelled...and life took another turn... unfortunately w/little Pali!" Thanks for sharing this sarah, :o) rgds 1644 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops --- protectID wrote: > > > Of course, > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > aim for the highest > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > dear gayan, Is it panna or is it tanha? Robert 1645 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Gayan, --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which > happened to the monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to > the extent that - when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes > is ' ooh ..look at you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts > better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I > could see how buddha have > explained why this will happen in the future. I'm glad you brought up this fascinating discourse, as I've been thinking of it too. For anyone unfamiliar with it, you can find a translation at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-77.html > I recollect, it is also said that in the future > there will be a stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow > string ( to be distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' > and that the merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the > representatives of the sangha lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the > case is) Good point. In the discourses and in the vinaya, even the scallywag Udayin was ALWAYS referred to as, 'The VENERABLE Udayin'... Regards back at you, Sir, Mike 1646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Mike Just a point on your ‘working hypothesis’ (I like that term) in your post to Kom below- > Excellent point. Though the Buddha did sometimes > describe a monk (approvingly) as going, after > alms-round, 'to the foot of a tree or to some > secluded > place' and meditating (Sarah, I'm sorry I can't > offer > citations for this vague reference. If you like, > I'll > try to find some...). This certainly evokes the > image > of seated meditation. HOWEVER (and I accept this as > a > working hypothesis, based on advice from some smart > people I've met recently), I THINK the practice > that's > being described in these passages is samatha > bhavana, > NOT satipatthana vipassana bhavana--a distinction I > failed to make for many years! Passages such a these are not necessarily describing only samatha. Satipatthana was of course taught to and practised by monks who had attained high levels of samatha, and they would continue their habitual life of solitude during that development. So you may find that satipatthana is being described. But yes, the point you have taken is that these suttas should not be read as requiring a life of solitude/the development of samatha in order to develop vipassana. > So, unless we think we > can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate > tranquillity (samatha bhavana) or work to eradicate > the > defilements by cultivating sammasati? Actually, we are saved the dilemma of such a choice. Developing the conditions for awareness of the present reality is the best foundation for both samatha and vipassana. And this will stand us in good stead during all those lifetimes in the future when samatha is known and taught but vipassana is not! Jonothan 1647 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Friends, As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or sharper. It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are many moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what the object is, are all thinking (pannati). Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This is because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say what we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going anywhere, not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there is no person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being there. It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object and make it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of voice recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, it is just many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words that we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as self, we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there is never such a person there regardless. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name > such as > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is > seen as > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. > This is > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is > just that > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a > little > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no > different > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or > being > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound > becomes > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible > objects' > are the same. 1648 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Gayank, Tan A. Sujin mentioned to me once what seeing a person in an orche robe can remind us of. Seeing such a person can remind us of the Ariya sagha who have walked the path to Nibbhana. An Ariya sagha has immeasurable merit including: he attains the knowledge that severes him from the Anusaya kilesa bounding him to (less or all) samsara, he is an immeasurable field of merit for what he teaches and for the results that will be attained for dana given to him Should we see a person in an orche robe a person? Or should we see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha? --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the > monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - > when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at > you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha > have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will be a > stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the > merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha > lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > > 1649 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death Dear Sarah, I am only guessing that the book is a collection of her teachings (and some suttas) and was published by the foundation in the normal way. I am not aware of a translated version, although Khun Amara may have one already, or may be pre-disposed in translating it. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > >Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old > >Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin). > > would you elaborate on this...am I being dense? Is this a book > written by > A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? If it is the former, has it > been > translated? Thanks > > Sarah > . > > 1650 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:54am Subject: Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death > I am > not > aware of a translated version, although Khun Amara may have one > already, > or may be pre-disposed in translating it. > > Is this a book > > written by > > A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? Dear Kom and Sarah, It is a small booklet of excerpts of sutta her talks and a discussion, I will find out if it has been translated, if not it can be easily done, except that I am still working on an article at the moment. I have been having a very busy two weeks personal and family affairs mostly, luckily over (I hope!). Lots of realities to study in life! Amara 1651 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 2:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Kom, This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest. :-((( Alex ========== >From: Kom Tukovinit >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Friends, > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or >sharper. >It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are >many >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of > >the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This >is >because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say >what >we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going >anywhere, >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there >is no >person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being >there. >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object >and make >it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you >immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of >voice >recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, >it is just >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words >that >we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as >self, >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there >is >never such a person there regardless. > >kom >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name > > such as > > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is > > seen as > > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not > > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. > > This is > > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is > > just that > > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a > > little > > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no > > different > > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or > > being > > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound > > becomes > > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible > > objects' > > are the same. > > 1652 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Robert, Mike, and all, Thank you for reminding me that what's happening is much more subtle and complicated than the appearance. Anumodana, Alex ======================= >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:03:22 -0800 (PST) > > > wrote: > > > I think the most dangerous > > ones are not > > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one > > takes them > > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep > > vinaya but who > > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most > > likely to lead us > > astray. > >At least some of us! Interesting, it's kind of back >to the Karaoke. That is, that the really insidious >danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese >expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad >fortune is like a spear in your face. Good fortune is >like a spear at the back of your neck." This is >similar, I think... > >Thanks, as always, Robert, > >Mike > 1653 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 7:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Jonathan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Passages such a these are not necessarily describing > only samatha. Satipatthana was of course taught to > and practised by monks who had attained high levels > of > samatha, and they would continue their habitual life > of solitude during that development. So you may > find > that satipatthana is being described. I stand corrected--oversimplifying again, I'm afraid... > But yes, the > point you have taken is that these suttas should not > be read as requiring a life of solitude/the > development of samatha in order to develop > vipassana. Well, actually, I was thinking more of seated, rather yogic-style meditation in general--whether alone or in groups. Your point regarding these passages sometimes referring to vipassana bhavana, though, give me pause to reconsider this view... > > So, unless we think we > > can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate > > tranquillity (samatha bhavana) or work to > eradicate > > the > > defilements by cultivating sammasati? > > Actually, we are saved the dilemma of such a choice. > > Developing the conditions for awareness of the > present > reality is the best foundation for both samatha and > vipassana. And this will stand us in good stead > during all those lifetimes in the future when > samatha > is known and taught but vipassana is not! Thanks, Jon, for the continued corrections--please do keep them coming... Mike 1654 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 8:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Amara and others, >Welcome to the list, I guess I just missed your posting last night, >signing off just before! I think we are rather the lucky ones to >have someone with such a facility to check things for us in the >future! Thank-you all for your warm welcomes. Sorry for not responding so promptly. I should say that I won't be able to keep up with the fast pace of this list due to the limited time I seem to have. I will try to respond to Sarah's welcome message soon. I look forward to checking things out for you all. >I for one am very grateful that you did, and everyone else would be >interested to know as well, I am sure. I am printing out your list >for them now. I'm glad I posted this list. On the list, I noticed an error I made in no. 32 & 36: "a~ncetiiti" should read "va~ncetiiti". Sorry for accidentally deleting the "v". >This is the first time I have heard >about them >> and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the >commentary on >> the Nettippakara.na. > >So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references >given: > >'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: > >written in > >1947 > >In the preface the venerable says.. > >" There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana >atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas >for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of >them." ' >**** > > >It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have >them but the tika DO? Gayan explained it correctly. The list of 38 comes from the Nettippakarana-atthakatha (Nett-a). I checked out the two tikas and did not find any such list in them. The tikas have very little to add in the way of comments. Also, a quick search on the CSCD disk suggests that the list is found only in this one commentary (Nett-a). Not having studied the Netti in much detail, I am unclear as to why the commentator presented the list of 38. >Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, >and which one is the one containing the list? The CSCD disk includes the following two tikas: Nettippakara.na-.tiikaa by Dhammapaala (6th cent.?) Nettivibhaavinii by Saddhammapaala (15th cent.) Dhammapaala also wrote the Nettippakaara.na-a.t.thakathaa. There is one other tika I know of: Netti(nava)mahaa.tiikaa by ~Naa.naabhiva.msa (18th-19th cent.) In a subsequent post to Gayan you wrote: << Dear Gayan, The Nettipakarana is in itself a guide to commentators so I suppose that you are right not to consider it one of the direct commentators to the Tipitaka, although I think that people are right in considering it one also since it is the guide to explaining the Tipitaka, complete with quotations and explanations. You are right that it is a learning experience, what do you think, Jim? Amara >> I'll pass up on telling you what I think. With best wishes, Jim A. 1655 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 9:57am Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Jim, Thank you for the thorough and considerate response. Very glad you joined indeed! Amara Dear all, I checked in early (for me!) today but will be away from the list all day, will look in this evening. Amara 1656 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Khun Kom, Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the mind door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color (RUPA) and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at every moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Friends, | | As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or | sharper. | It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are | many | moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of | | the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and | remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what | | the object is, are all thinking (pannati). | | Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This | is | because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say | what | we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as | we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going | anywhere, | not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there | is no | person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being | there. | It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object | and make | it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. | | Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you | immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of | voice | recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, | it is just | many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding | without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words | that | we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as | self, | we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there | is | never such a person there regardless. | | kom | --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: | > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name | > such as | > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is | > seen as | > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not | > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. | > This is | > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is | > just that | > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a | > little | > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no | > different | > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or | > being | > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound | > becomes | > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible | > objects' | > are the same. | | 1657 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the Path. One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these goings on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha meant them to be studied. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > Dear friends, > > I think that in Thailand or anywhere else, there are 2 types of monks: > the ones who are on the Path, and the ones who *pretend* to be monks for > whatever reasons. It's the 2nd type is the ones who cause the > misunderstanding in the public. > > I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they have ID > to prove that they are really monks. From time to time, a police may check > any monk for his ID. Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we still > can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look around > when walking. > > Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period. In fact, my > monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. Young > ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect them to be > laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for > marriage. > > Is it true, my dear Thai friends? > > Alex Tran > > > 1658 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes, so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > Dear Khun Kom, > Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the mind > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color (RUPA) > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at every > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > > | Dear Friends, > | > | As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or > | sharper. > | It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are > | many > | moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of > | > | the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and > | remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what > | > | the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > | > | Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This > | is > | because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say > | what > | we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as > | we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going > | anywhere, > | not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there > | is no > | person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being > | there. > | It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object > | and make > | it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. > | > | Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you > | immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of > | voice > | recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, > | it is just > | many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding > | without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words > | that > | we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as > | self, > | we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there > | is > | never such a person there regardless. > | > | kom > | --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > | > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name > | > such as > | > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is > | > seen as > | > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not > | > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. > | > This is > | > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is > | > just that > | > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a > | > little > | > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no > | > different > | > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or > | > being > | > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound > | > becomes > | > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible > | > objects' > | > are the same. > | > 1659 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear M.Betty, No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the mind door, the 3D occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it is pannati already. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes, | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time. | | With metta, | Betty | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| | | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: shinlin | | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | | | > Dear Khun Kom, | > Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the | mind | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color | (RUPA) | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process | > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at | every | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. | > Shin | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Kom Tukovinit | > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | > | > | | 1660 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear M.Betty, When you say "eye", it is eye sensitive material (cakkhu dhatu) or eye consciousness ( cakkhu vinnana ) ?? There is a difference between the two. The cakkhu vinnana only recognizes colour. This is what I meant. The 3D or depth is in the mind or thinking process. I used to ask the same question at the Thai Dhamma talk, and it was confirmed by Archan. BUT we can check it out again. regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes, | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time. | | With metta, | Betty | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| | | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: shinlin | | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | | | > Dear Khun Kom, | > Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the | mind | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color | (RUPA) | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process | > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at | every | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. | > Shin | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Kom Tukovinit | > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > 1661 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear robert, it is desire ! isnt it, This comes to mind, (in tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this path is to destroy desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the path?' then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he has desire, eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go to that place still be existing?' the answer was 'no' ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the desire to eradicate desire will cease to exist' I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut rgds. Robert Kirkpatrick on 10/31/2000 07:05:33 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops --- protectID wrote: > > > Of course, > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > aim for the highest > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > dear gayan, Is it panna or is it tanha? Robert 1662 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear kom, you asked, "Should we see a person in an orche robe a person? Or should we see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha?" we Should see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha. studying about the lifestyles of maha theras ie. sariputta,moggallana,kassapa also helped me.Then when I see a person in robe , what comes to mind is the compassionate lifestyles of those great monks. :o) rgds. Kom Tukovinit on 10/31/2000 09:58:27 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Gayank, Tan A. Sujin mentioned to me once what seeing a person in an orche robe can remind us of. Seeing such a person can remind us of the Ariya sagha who have walked the path to Nibbhana. An Ariya sagha has immeasurable merit including: he attains the knowledge that severes him from the Anusaya kilesa bounding him to (less or all) samsara, he is an immeasurable field of merit for what he teaches and for the results that will be attained for dana given to him Should we see a person in an orche robe a person? Or should we see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha? --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the > monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - > when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at > you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha > have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will be a > stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the > merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha > lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > > 1663 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:22pm Subject: Ch V 11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo vangceti In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the holylife can be lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, senasana, gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and responsibility. Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is only done with the 'allowed' and 'recommended'. But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only concentrate on what is allowed and not allowed. And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle for it. His priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make full use of the 'allowances'. Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill of anunnatha patisevana, but its none other than the disguised kamasukhallikanuyoga. In the lay life, the person who is cheated by kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to think.."in many occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to earn righteously, live comfortably, have and look after children........." and he will dive into sensuality. He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the possibility of ) attaining the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life. 12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha vangceti. It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing of the resources' , The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it with the brethen who are less-successful. Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela ( who lacks moral restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful unmeritorious deeds ) people. Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to others, liking to consume everything by oneself. This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no business with those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva parisuddhi will be in danger" So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the play. contd. 1664 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan, I think it is a little more complicated than it appears from the sutta where Ananda said that you use desire to get to the end of desire. Tanha can never understand dhammas as they are. Thus you could have oddles of desire to understand but this is simply a hindrance. Chanda - wish to do - can arise with tanha or panna. It is similar in some ways to tanha (can be mistaken for tanha) but when it arises with panna is different. Tanha can be pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna- for example you have tanha for nibanna and so start studying dhamma. But if (and this so easily happens) one continues to study with tanha it will be an impassable barrier that stops panna. Tanha for nibbana is also upanissaya paccaya for wrong practice when someone wants to attain quickly so they look for shortcuts and does special practices. It is only this moment that can be understood and only panna that can lead to nibbana. Only by accumulating panna at this moment will more panna arise in the future. If true panna is accumulated then one day the moments will be seen as they are and nibbana will be experienced. No one could stop it occuring. Tanha is simply samudaya sacca - the cause of dukkha and prolonger of samsara vata. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > it is desire ! isnt it, > > This comes to mind, > (in tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this > path is to destroy > desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the > path?' > then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he > has desire, > eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go > to that place still > be existing?' > the answer was 'no' > ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the > desire to > eradicate desire will cease to exist' > > I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut > > rgds. > > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick on > 10/31/2000 07:05:33 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops > > > > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > Of course, > > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > > aim for the highest > > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > > > dear gayan, > Is it panna or is it tanha? > Robert > > > > 1665 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Sarah, Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya. pakatúpanissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya, the commentary to the “Paěěhĺna” (the Pańcappakaraůatthakathĺ) explains the term “pakata” in pakatúpanissaya. Pakata means done properly, done thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were “done thoroughly”, often performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual. In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they cause to arise. I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying about A. Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would classify my earlier comments as being highly suspicious. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Kom, > > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > >Dear Sarah, > > > >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really > >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and > Buddha's > >panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex > all > >the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and > my > >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the > >followings: > > > >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta: > > > >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways: > >sahajata (conascence condition) > >sampayutta (association) > >annamanna (mutuality) > >nisaya (support) > >indariya (chief in its functions?) > >atti (still there?) > >avicata (not gone yet?) > >possibly vipaka (results) > > > >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways: > >sahajata (conascence condition) > >sampayutta (association) > >annamanna (mutuality) > >nisaya (support) > >ahara (brings forth results?) > >atti (still there?) > >avicata (not gone yet?) > >possibly vipaka (results) > > > >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa > >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object) > >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara) > >possibly asevana (repeating in javana) > >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise) > >possibly aramana (as sense object) > >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?) > >possibly natti (not there?) > >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?) > > > > o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on > paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the > swimmingpool > with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful, > but > still doesn't give me all the answers... > > I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level > either > agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!). > > now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as > pacaya for > vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds > of > nissaya, i.e. > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0 > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) > > 1. can only be heartbase > 2. arising together and dependent on > 3. conditioning statew must be a material base > 4. a mix up > > pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied > v.carefully. > > >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana > >arising after the phassa in the following ways: > >pacchajat (postnascence), > >sampayitta (association) > > > >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that > >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be > >sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate? > > > You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another. > This > is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting > me to > spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an > analogy > used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they > find and > don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to > crave for > the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving > > supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do > mental > gymnastics to kind of get it!) > > >Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn > more > >about pacaya. > > > >kom > > Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual > study > at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it > goes to > the heart of the anattaness of realities. > > One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about > the > particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered > the > most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too. > > Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in > posts to > read up! > > Sarah > > 1666 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is only at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear M.Betty, > No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the > mind door, the 3D > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it > is pannati > already. > with metta, > Shin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > > | Dear Shin, > | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why > we have 2 > eyes, > | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, > not as a flat > | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her > next time. > | > | With metta, > | Betty > | __________________________ > | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > | Bangkok 10900, Thailand > | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > | protectID> | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: shinlin > | > | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM > | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > | > | > | > Dear Khun Kom, > | > Visible object is just color during the eye process of > thought, 3D > or > | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of > thought in the > | mind > | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which > is already > | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can > separate the color > | (RUPA) > | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. > UNDERSTANDING the > process > | > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of > not self at > | every > | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the > Manodvaravajjana. Check it > out. > | > Shin > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: Kom Tukovinit > | > > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM > | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > | > > | > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1667 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying > about A. > Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would > classify my > earlier comments as being highly suspicious. > > Dear Kom, Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include the dhammas that lead s out of samasara -amoha(panna) and alobha. Robert 1668 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear robert, yes it is quite clear. what is the most suitable word for chanda in english? ( desire? ) the best word for tanha is craving , is it? yes , the skill must be to understand the diffrences between.... ie, kama tanha, kamacchanda? yes ( again ) , when investigating words like dhamma-rati one has to be very cautious (isnt it) for in dhammapada it says ' sabba rati dhamma rati jinathi' ( rati for dhamma is the best rati ) and rati is a hindrance.... i would like to know the most suited english word for rati as well. rgds. gayan Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/01/2000 01:42:19 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan, I think it is a little more complicated than it appears from the sutta where Ananda said that you use desire to get to the end of desire. Tanha can never understand dhammas as they are. Thus you could have oddles of desire to understand but this is simply a hindrance. Chanda - wish to do - can arise with tanha or panna. It is similar in some ways to tanha (can be mistaken for tanha) but when it arises with panna is different. Tanha can be pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna- for example you have tanha for nibanna and so start studying dhamma. But if (and this so easily happens) one continues to study with tanha it will be an impassable barrier that stops panna. Tanha for nibbana is also upanissaya paccaya for wrong practice when someone wants to attain quickly so they look for shortcuts and does special practices. It is only this moment that can be understood and only panna that can lead to nibbana. Only by accumulating panna at this moment will more panna arise in the future. If true panna is accumulated then one day the moments will be seen as they are and nibbana will be experienced. No one could stop it occuring. Tanha is simply samudaya sacca - the cause of dukkha and prolonger of samsara vata. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > it is desire ! isnt it, > > This comes to mind, > (in tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this > path is to destroy > desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the > path?' > then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he > has desire, > eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go > to that place still > be existing?' > the answer was 'no' > ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the > desire to > eradicate desire will cease to exist' > > I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut > > rgds. > > 1669 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch V Dear gayan, very helpful once again! I am still finding this most useful. I have had several discussions over the years with Nina where we commented how nice it would be to have the atthakattha to the Netti translated. This is based on only one section of it - there must be a lot of gold in there we don't know about yet. And what do the Tika have I wonder? Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > 11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo > vangceti > > In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the > holylife can be > lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, > senasana, > gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and > responsibility. > Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is > only done with the > 'allowed' and 'recommended'. > But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only > concentrate on what is > allowed and not allowed. > And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle > for it. His > priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make > full use of the > 'allowances'. > Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill > of anunnatha > patisevana, but its none other than the disguised > kamasukhallikanuyoga. > > In the lay life, the person who is cheated by > kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not > recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to > think.."in many > occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to > earn righteously, > live comfortably, have and look after children........." and > he will dive into > sensuality. > He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the > possibility of ) attaining > the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life. > > > 12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha > vangceti. > > It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing > of the resources' > , > The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it > with the brethen > who are less-successful. > > Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela > ( who lacks moral > restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful > unmeritorious deeds ) > people. > Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to > others, liking to > consume everything by oneself. > This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no > business with > those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva > parisuddhi will be > in danger" > So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the > play. > > contd. > > > 1670 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 6:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a sotapanna ??? What about the low level of satipanna before being Ariya people ? I heard from the Thai dhamma discussion saying that there is low level of satipanna but it is not stable. Sometimes alobha likes that low level of satipanna which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. Then it would be a little hard to come back on the right track. But I think the low level satipanna is visesa lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and it increases faith in the teaching as it happens. Pls correct me if I have mistaken anything. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our | understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to | what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible | object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is only | at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference | between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there | must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the | specific charcteristics) of dhammas. | Robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear M.Betty, | > No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the | > mind door, the 3D | > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it | > is pannati | > already. | > with metta, | > Shin | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | > | > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | > | Dear Shin, | > | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why | > we have 2 | > eyes, | > | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, | > not as a flat | > | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her | > next time. | > | | > | With metta, | > | Betty | > | __________________________ | > | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | > | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | > | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | > | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | > | protectID| > | 1671 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear shin, --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a > sotapanna ??? No, namarupapariccheda- nana (distinguishing of nama and rupa) is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as ditthi visuddhhi(purification of view)and is the most important stage before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the first stage of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained it when they concentrate and know, for example, that first there is the intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is actually much more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained how at that moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the rapidity of chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the difference between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only occur when wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, considering ( of the types done with mahakusala citta associated with panna (wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly noted, having studied (with panna) again and again the visesa lakkhana of different dhammas. Sometimes alobha likes that low level of > satipanna > which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not alobha. This actually occurs after namarupapariccheda- nana and it shows just how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very purified and it is clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still tanha creeps in and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick us before that stage? But I think the low level > satipanna is visesa > lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and > it increases > faith in the teaching as it happens. Any true understanding increases faith in the teaching Robert > ----- 1672 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:20pm Subject: Re: time & path Joe It was great to hear from a fellow Dhamma student from the 'old days' in Bangkok. It took me some time to put a face to the facts you have given, but I think I have now done so. I will know for sure when we meet in Bangkok next month (hopefully)! > for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I > attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this > group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout > that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon > Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall > correctly) lived. Yes, that would be me, but I'm Australian thanks mate. And my short period as a novice had been some years before. But like you, I had a lot of contact with the foreign monks at that time. > anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told > conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of > my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I > think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further > away). We are very happy to have someone with this particular pecadillo on the list. Look forward to seeing more of your posts in fu 1673 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:24pm Subject: Re: colour/sound > The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a sotapanna ??? > What about the low level of satipanna before being Ariya people ? I heard > from the Thai dhamma discussion saying that there is low level of satipanna > but it is not stable. Dear Shin, Perhaps you will remember this passage from the 'Summary' (also in the advanced section of , Part VIII Vipassana-Bhavana): Before the magga-vithi-citta could arise, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to be mindful, study and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of each rebirth until the panna that takes notes and knows the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would increase. When the panna is full, steadfast to a certain level, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta that is a vipassana-nana would arise to clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma respective the level of vipassana-nana through the mano-dvara, namely: Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely separate, arammana by arammana. The world appears as a reality void of the self. At that moment there is no atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world. Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the specific reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter. Because without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. Paccayapariggaha-nana: the second vipassana-nana After the vipassana-nana has fallen away, the world would appear assembled as before. Those who develop sati-patthana would know exactly the differences between the instant when the vipassana-nana arises and when not. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, ignorance and uncertainty about other nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would arise again because they have not been absolutely eradicated. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is a nata-parinna, the nana that knows only the characteristics of the reality that appears uniquely at the moment of vipassana-nana. At the instant of vipassana-nana there is no ignorance and uncertainty about the characteristics of realities appearing. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is the first step of vipassana-nana leading to the development of the next levels of increasingly clear realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When sati-patthana has continued further to be mindful, examine and take notes of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing, it would realize that each instant that arammana appears, the consciousness would arise according to paccaya, which are the arammana. If the distinct arammana does not appear, the nama-dhamma that knows that arammana cannot arise. The appearance of each arammana would allow panna to see the characteristics of being paccaya of the appearing dhamma. The characteristics of anatta of all dhamma could then be known and gradually the focus on, and the self-involved attention to the arammana would be attenuated. The instant the eightfold magga, which is a sankhara-khandha, has developed to the fullest, it would cause the second vipassana-nana, the paccayapariggaha-nana, to arise and realize the arising of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma according to paccaya at the instant that the specific realities arise, for example, the realization of the arising of the hearing consciousness or of sound, that of the arising of sukha-vedana or dukkha- vedana or thinking consciousness, which would appear in their separateness arammana by arammana in characteristics void of the self etc. The vipassana-nana fully realizes the characteristics of realities that arise and appear normally but the realization is through the mano-dvara. It severs the characteristics of each arammana in manner completely voiding all other things as well as the self. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, the world would appear assembled as before. Sammasana-nana: the third vipassana-nana The sammasana-nana is the panna that fully realizes the rapid arising and falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When it is not vipassana-nana, even though there is knowledge through reasoning that nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma arise and fall away very rapidly, the arising and falling away would not be apparent. Even in the first and second vipassana-nana, the realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is only that of each nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma one at a time. The first, second and third vipassana-nana are taruna-vipassana, the vipassana of the beginning level, therefore, they are still weak, not balava-vipassana or vipassana-nana that is strong, as are the higher levels of vipassana-nana. Taruna-vipassana still reflects upon nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized if in an aspect void of the world that used to appear assembled. Since there is still thinking about nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized, they are called cinta-nana, which makes people mistake the 3 vipassana-nana for the instants of mindfulness, noting and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and more clearly understanding them. But as long as vipassana-nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana-nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would appear as arammana. Some might understand that the moment of mindfulness, examination of and noting the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and thinking, is already the clear knowledge of nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. This is because they do not know yet that vipassana-nana must arise and appear as being anatta like all other nama-dhamma, and that it is the realization of the sequential characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara with the other dvara apparently excluded by the mano-dvara. Contrarily, when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear because it would be hidden by the arammana of the panca-dvara-vithi-citta. Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana. But until the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise. And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga (ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto completion as the specific vipassana-nana. Thus the specific vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions. Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are mindful, study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and more conscientiously. Some think that when sammasana-nana arises they would see nama-dhamma arising and falling away as little spheres, one after another. Nama-dhamma is not rupa-dhamma. Since they have no knowledge of the characteristics of nama-dhamma, not having developed sati-patthana to be mindful of the characteristics of specific kinds of nama-dhamma, which is the element of consciousness, they think that nama-dhamma that arises and fall away has the characteristics of a certain rupa. Those who are impatient to have vipassana-nana arise immediately would try to do other things rather than be mindful, examine and take note of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise and appear according to the causes and conditions as they truly are. But it is impossible to rush panna at all. The only hetu to develop panna to gradually grow is sati-patthana normally, in ordinary everyday life. If one does anything else, it is certain that the wrong result will issue from the wrong causes. Wrong practice comes from desiring quick results because there is no understanding of the correct way to practice. Lobha-mula-citta with wrong view would be miccha-magga that leads to miccha-vimutti or the wrong freedom because it would not be the right freedom from kilesa but which is mistaken as such. ***** A little further on the 10 vipassanupa kilesa are also described and then the level of vipassana nana that eradicates them, which is the: 6) Patipada-nana-dassana-visuddhi: having transcended vipassanupa-kilesa, panna that has developed from the development of sati-patthana would also be patipada-nana-dassana-visuddhi from the udayabbaya-nana that is free from vipassanupa-kilesa to the three anuloma-nana, namely parikamma, upacara and anuloma. ***** The book is so rich it is quite good to reread sometimes, Amara 1674 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 1:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah and all, >A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found your way here >(thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your interest (expertise >i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune and we all >look forward to hearing plenty from you. > >If you feel like give a little more detail such as where you're based and >how you developed such a strong interest in pali and abhidhamma I know we'd >all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any more details >about your work with Pali. > >Sarah Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's a bit more on where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a wooded lot about 25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times a year to stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk for about two weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a hermit. For about a 20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a few Buddhist teachers and groups at various locations. I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting I attended in Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a monk on tape. In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a member of the Pali Text Society and started buying books directly from them for my collection of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had most of the available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian edition of the Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on my own. I did seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the University of Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that never came about, although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D student of his for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from Yangon. When I heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized (he still had the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him to teach me Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was getting myself into! He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available to teach me for about another five years when he expected to be finished his studies. As it turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge responsibility of bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs here. I felt it was just too much for me to handle financially and psychologically. After it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 where I have continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation until this day. Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. I'm sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a support for studying the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the discussions. I will make every effort to share with you whatever I have learned that I think might be helpful. With best wishes, Jim A. 1675 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 9:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Betty, Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the Path. They create terrible kamma for themselves. However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand for the Ariya Disciples. My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure that they are not worthy? A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his supporters see nothing wrong with it. Anumodana, Alex ================== >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:41:26 +0700 > >Dear Alex, >Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken >the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the >Path. >One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the >Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to >bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is >attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them >don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these >goings >on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be >worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, >all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are >at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give >thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha >meant them to be studied. > >with metta, >Betty >__________________________ >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road >Bangkok 10900, Thailand >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 >protectID> > > > > 1676 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 7:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! dear group, I must add to Jim's introduction that I been reading his comments on other web sites for over several months and admired his mature and modest approach (and expertise) to the various topics. When recently he answered a query about the Patthana and mentioned his interest in Abhidhamma it was clear how helpful he could be to our discussions: hence my invite. I am very grateful that you accepted Jim. We understand that you won't have time to get involved in all the topics we discuss here but whatever assistance you give will be much valued. thanks robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > >A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found > your way here > >(thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your > interest (expertise > >i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune > and we all > >look forward to hearing plenty from you. > > > >If you feel like give a little more detail such as where > you're based and > >how you developed such a strong interest in pali and > abhidhamma I know we'd > >all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any > more details > >about your work with Pali. > > > >Sarah > > Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's > a bit more on > where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a > wooded lot about > 25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times > a year to > stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk > for about two > weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a > hermit. For about a > 20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a > few Buddhist > teachers and groups at various locations. > > I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting > I attended in > Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a > monk on tape. > In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's > Introduction to Pali > and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a > member of the Pali > Text Society and started buying books directly from them for > my collection > of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had > most of the > available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian > edition of the > Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on > my own. I did > seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the > University of > Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that > never came about, > although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D > student of his > for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from > Yangon. When I > heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized > (he still had > the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him > to teach me > Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was > getting myself into! > He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available > to teach me for > about another five years when he expected to be finished his > studies. As it > turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge > responsibility of > bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs > here. I felt it > was just too much for me to handle financially and > psychologically. After > it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 > where I have > continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation > until this > day. > > Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an > expert in Pali. > I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the > language. It > still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been > interested in > Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. > I have done > some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently > studying the 24 > paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five > books too. I'm > sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a > support for studying > the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the > discussions. I > will make every effort to share with you whatever I have > learned that I > think might be helpful. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > > > 1677 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Amara, Thanks for your response! I'm still puzzling about it all... --- amara chay wrote: > Vicikiccha can only be eradicated by > panna of the > sotapanna level, since the succession of citta is so > formidable fast, > in fact so fast it is a wonder that awareness can > arise at all! Yes, well--I'm sure nothing has been eradicated, just supplanted, I guess, for a few moments. But I'm still wondering if what seemed like a few odd moments of direct awareness simply of the absence of dosa and/or sukkhavedana really has any particular significance, or if I'm giving the recollection of those moments more attention than it deserves... > But > with the proper conditions, anything can happen Right! Well, I'll carry on, I guess... Anumodana back at you, Ma'am! Mike 1678 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch - IV --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: --- protectID wrote: > the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)> care, responsibility for others. One who has the > desire to develop kusalas, can mistake this akusala > as the former kusala, and can try to develop the > disguised akusala. > I certainly know this one! I was very irresonsible > (still am) > family wise but could always justify it to myself > as > "detachment". But it is simply selfishness. Ditto, unmasked again! 'I' seem to have been carefully cultivating nearly ALL these particular delusions for aeons... Glad to find 'myself' in such excellent company... Thanks to you both, Mike 1679 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have > patigha (dosa) > sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. > The other > thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing > Dhamma that > was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can > never help > anything. So, when that dosa arises, if we know (from experience) that we can supplant it (simile of the peg), should we do so? Do we have the option? Or will that supplanting either take place or not take place, uncontrollably, according to conditions? > As you explained - we have to expect > deterioration - > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to > understand > the situation with patience. We only help when there > is kusala - > no other way. And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause the arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, the only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna now, in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala in the future? If so, is the effort (based on the desire (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly confused...? Thanks in advance... Mike 1680 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > --- > . However, as we all realise, dosa can > > never help > > anything. > > So, when that dosa arises, if we know (from > experience) that we can supplant it (simile of the > peg), should we do so? Do we have the option? Or > will that supplanting either take place or not take > place, uncontrollably, according to conditions? If dosa arises then that is the reality at that moment- it can be understood. Different ways and levels of understanding it. It might be known as simply a dhamma, a nama; As simply a dhatu, an element; Or as part of sankhara khanda; Or perhaps no conceptualising at all but simply knowing it as it is. But understanding isn't always of the satipatthana type. Even basic understanding that dosa is always akusala and can only give unpleasant results is very helpful. The more we see this the more there is the turning away from dosa. By this I don't mean telling ourself "dosa is bad, I shouldn't have it". That won't work for long. What helps is knowing the details of kamma and vipaka - then one starts to really have confidence that bad causes must lead to bad results. Don't we so often feel well-justified in our anger? "Those monks are destroying the sasana, they are terrible...." It feels right that we should be angry - It is all delusion. If we know the moment we will see that. The conditions for understanding of whatever level is simply hearing more, considering more and studying the present moment. It works its way gradually. We will still get angry again and again but, if we have heard much, if the conditions have been fulfilled, we will learn a little from even the akusala. It is not us who is angry- it is simply anger arising. Dosa is the rough dhamma, the ugly cetasika, but it is not ours, it is alien. And when we don't learn anything that is dhamma too - it shows us that we haven't really listened enough. That we have only been paying lip-service to Dhamma. It lets us know that confidence in kamma and vipaka is low. It is telling us - "you are heedless, life is short, do not be negligent." > > As you explained - we have to expect > > deterioration - > > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to > > understand > > the situation with patience. We only help when there > > is kusala - > > no other way. > > And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause the > arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, the > only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna now, > in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala in > the future? If so, is the effort (based on the desire > (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) > akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly > confused...? > Hopelessly confused is all dhamma too. It is anatta. Trying too much will surely be done with tanha - it will just block understanding. Robert 1681 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear, Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Well it sounds to me that you are becoming a person ...yes, 'I' never gets tired of becoming, does I--or, do it--or something...! > with a name and a daily > life - work, showers etc and this shows that your > practice is becoming more > and more a part of daily life... the shower can be > your 'root of the tree' ...of course! > and as suitable place as any to understand a little > more about those > realities...and yes, we think we have dosa for a > long stretch or 'felt ill' > all day when in fact there were so many different > experiences....but as you > found, even dosa has its limits! So many other > realities in between! ...yes, I've known that for a long time, in a crude sort of way... > It seems there was some understanding at some level > during the shower scene > (sounds like the Hitchcock movie) but the > retrospection afterwards and > memory of arising etc is just thinking...there has > to be a lot of very > clear understanding of a reality and of namas > distinct from rupas before > there is any question of the arising as anything > other than thinking..... ...right... > Keep up the daily life examples...remember I > said I give a level I > pass when you ask qus here or share in a post, level > 2 is when you drag in > others and now you've reached level 3 which is when > one's job and daily > chores are not seen as an obstacle to progress! ...well, I'm still quite grateful for a pass to the kids' table (or the doggie-door, for that matter)--since you mention it, though, I've never experienced even what I used to think were 'insights' during 'formal meditation'--anything that's EVER 'clicked' 'for me' has done so in the course of 'everyday life'... > (btw, the latter > frivolity is WAY outside the Tipitaka!) ...well, after all, we kids do need sugar coating on our pills (I feel sure Khun Amara will be patient with us...?) > P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the > experience of coldness > through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 > moments of dosa... This is very interesting! Sorry if this question is inane, but any idea how long it takes for these 17 moments to arise and subside? > Khun > Sujin used to say to me when I had a nasty cold, just > a moment of unpleasant > bodily feeling and then all those many moments of > dosa are the real > problem...looks like you don't need to be told! ...no, the difference between the dukkhavedana and the dosa are (grossly and conceptually) clear--in retrospect, of course--but I think it'll be a long time before I'll no longer benefit from being reminded... Many thanks, as always, Sarah, Mike 1682 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again > So, when that dosa arises, if we know (from > experience) that we can supplant it (simile of the > peg), should we do so? Do we have the option? Or > will that supplanting either take place or not take > place, uncontrollably, according to conditions? Dear Mike, Usually the citta is so fast that when there are conditions, they arise immediately, there is no stopping them in time or supplanting them with anything else. But right understanding is also a cetasika that accompanies the citta and arises as quickly- when there are conditions for it to also. Right understanding can be of several levels, as Robert explained so well, the intellectual level is very important especially as conditions for the experiencing level. But at the experiencing level it needs not be followed by long trains of analysis. For example on the theoretic level visible objects arise and fall away, what is seen through the eyes are light and color, shapes and forms are later recognized, seeing occurs when the inner and outer ayatanas come into contact, etc. But what we are seeing now does not need to be described, its characteristics as they appear to right understanding that is studying it is accumulated for further right understanding to occur and accumulate in continuation, and as long as there is the study of realities that appear as distinct from those through other dvara and from one reality to the other even through the same dvara (seeing is different from light and color), knowledge of these characteristics will also grow, gradually, little by little. When the knowledge is strong enough and the conditions are right, it can eradicate dosa completely (at the anagami level) but in the meantime when the conditions are right, again, the growing knowledge that the dosa is arising, as Alex once said, I think, can also condition less dosa to arise. While before one might be tempted to show your dosa and wish the other person bad things, one might see the harm dosa is doing to oneself and bringing no good to anyone else. Or one might, at the experiencing level, experience it as such, an uncomfortable and harmful state of the citta that has arisen and fallen away, impermanent like anything else, and different from other moments of citta such as lobha or seeing or thinking. This realization automatically, without any thinking about it all day, adds to your knowledge of things as they really are, since that is the duty of right understanding: to accumulate more right understanding as they arise. > > As you explained - we have to expect > > deterioration - > > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to > > understand > > the situation with patience. We only help when there > > is kusala - > > no other way. > > And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause the > arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, the > only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna now, > in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala in > the future? If so, is the effort (based on the desire > (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) > akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly > confused...? As you see it is a very complex matter, but the true nature of realities as they arise and are experienced with right understanding will help clarify the theories as well. In other words all dhamma studies help and support and clarify one another, so long as one studies the Buddha's words as much as one can without prejudice or preconception, I think. Amara 1683 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin and Robert, Seems to me there's a LOT of value for reassessing old ditthi in this short exchange--thanks! --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear shin, > > --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > >The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after > > being a > > sotapanna ??? > > No, namarupapariccheda-nana (distinguishing of nama > and rupa) > is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as > ditthi > visuddhhi (purification of view) and is the most > important stage > before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the > first stage > of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained > it when > they concentrate and know, for example, that first > there is the > intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is > actually much > more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained > how at that > moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the > rapidity of > chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the > difference > between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only > occur when > wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, > considering (of > the types done with mahakusala citta associated with > panna > (wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly > noted, having > studied (with panna) again and again the visesa > lakkhana of > different dhammas. > > > Sometimes alobha likes that low level of > > satipanna > > which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. > > I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not > alobha. This > actually occurs after namarupapariccheda-nana and > it shows just > how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very > purified and it is > clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still > tanha creeps in > and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick > us before > that stage? > > > But I think the low level > > satipanna is visesa > > lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas > > appears and > > it increases > > faith in the teaching as it happens. > > Any true understanding increases faith in the > teaching > Robert 1684 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > If dosa arises then that is the reality at that > moment- it can > be understood. Different ways and levels of > understanding it. It > might be known as simply a dhamma, a nama; As simply > a dhatu, an > element; Or as part of sankhara khanda; Or perhaps > no > conceptualising at all but simply knowing it as it > is. > But understanding isn't always of the satipatthana > type. Even > basic understanding that dosa is always akusala and > can only > give unpleasant results is very helpful. The more we > see this > the more there is the turning away from dosa. ...right... > By > this I don't > mean telling ourself "dosa is bad, I shouldn't have > it". That > won't work for long. ...no... > What helps is knowing the > details of kamma > and vipaka - then one starts to really have > confidence that bad > causes must lead to bad results. ...definitely... > Don't we so often feel well-justified in our anger? Always! While it lasts... > "Those monks > are destroying the sasana, they are terrible..." It > feels right > that we should be angry - It is all delusion. If we > know the > moment we will see that. I don't know that I've ever known the moment, but it's certainly clear in retrospect. But is this kind of retrospection of some value, or just 'darting among unrealities'? > The conditions for understanding of whatever level > is simply > hearing more, considering more and studying the > present moment. > It works its way gradually. We will still get angry > again and > again but, if we have heard much, if the conditions > have been > fulfilled, we will learn a little from even the > akusala. It is > not us who is angry- it is simply anger arising. ...right... > Dosa is the > rough dhamma, the ugly cetasika, but it is not ours, > it is > alien. ...right... > And when we don't learn anything that is dhamma too > - it shows > us that we haven't really listened enough. That we > have only > been paying lip-service to Dhamma. It lets us know > that > confidence in kamma and vipaka is low. It is telling > us - "you > are heedless, life is short, do not be negligent." > > > > > As you explained - we have to expect > > > deterioration - > > > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps > us to > > > understand > > > the situation with patience. We only help when > there > > > is kusala - > > > no other way. > > > > And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause > the > > arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, > the > > only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna > now, > > in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala > in > > the future? If so, is the effort (based on the > desire > > (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) > > akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly > > confused...? > > > Hopelessly confused is all dhamma too. It is anatta. > Trying too > much will surely be done with tanha - it will just > block > understanding. ...yeah...guess I'll turn in. Good night, sir... mn 1685 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops (Embedded image moved to file: pic08256.pcx) Dear Robert, your question was "> Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > aim for the highest > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > dear gayan, Is it panna or is it tanha? Robert " now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, not tanha, what you said was quite clear, please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end desire , so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta , viriya, vimamsa) ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for spiritual development) some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic attainments , another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( sotapanna ) and to be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha warned) one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to any sort of a realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not a sort of a panna? (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood or suta buddhahood what drives them? a sort of a desire? Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what I have in mind (to get clarified from you) :o) yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex discussions carried on in this e community..but I thought that this is an opportunity to know whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a disadvantageous ditthi thanx in advance. Attachment 1k (application/octet-stream) pic08256.pcx 1686 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Jim Thanks very much for joining us and for the detailed introduction. We look forward to your contributions on aspects of Pali and of course generally. > still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have > been interested in > Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the > early stages. I have done > some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana > (currently studying the 24 > paccayas) and would like to get started on the other > five books too. I'm Sounds like you have much in common with the rest of us! Jonothan 1687 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 0:59pm Subject: Ch VI 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo vangceti. 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in the noble order. This is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. But it is not allowed for a monk to give to laypeople other than the gifts of the dhamma( dhammadanas). Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the commodities received as alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with monks , they will more and more aims in return) But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the laypeple please by giving material gifts and worldly gifts is samvibhaga seelatha, but its miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and entertain a liking and friendship with the monk, but the point is this type of particular dhammas can be associated with even a thief/criminal who helps them, does favourable things for them. This may appear to build confidence in the lay followers' minds but its is a type of tanha associated with piti. (sapitika tanha). As always the idea here is to distinguish between the kusala ad the akusala. No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is detected. 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata vangceti The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up with the unsuitable, unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay followers is unsuitable. Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( the 32, ie..rajakata, corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga viharata is a quality that should be developed by monks/yogins. the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything for, ignoring the lay followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not gifting with dhamma etc. So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the asamsaggaviharata. This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the yogins who have gone forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in observing the holylife. So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. contd. 1688 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Robert & Gayan, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa) >sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other >thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that >was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help >anything. well, I'm way behind you guys in this area...still plenty of dosa (for me) when I see poorly behaved monks altho' reminding myself of what the sangha represents helps a little, intellectually... Reading & hearing incorrect dhamma is a condition for more dosa too....If I heard something which didn't seem correct on this list, that would be fine, as I'd feel we could help....but when there's no chance to help and the only answer is equanimity and awareness of the cittas, there's a problem. This probably says more about the dosa towards the dosa than anything else! As we keep saying, who's complaining about the lobha and moha? Sarah As you explained - we have to expect deterioration - >the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand >the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala - >no other way. >Robert > >--- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to > > the monk , > > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent > > that - when > > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh > > ..look at you > > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how > > buddha have > > explained why this will happen in the future. > > > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will > > be a stage > > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > > distinguished > > from laypeople ) :o) > > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that > > the merit > > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the > > sangha lead by > > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > > > :o) > > > > > > rgds. > > 1690 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death Dear Amara, >Dear Kom and Sarah, > >It is a small booklet of excerpts of sutta her talks and a >discussion, I will find out if it has been translated, if not it can >be easily done, except that I am still working on an article at the >moment. anumodana in advance! I look f/w to reading it. No hurry! I have been having a very busy two weeks personal and >family affairs mostly, luckily over (I hope!). Lots of realities to >study in life! More than usual (realities to study)?!?! seems like that when we're busy, doesn't it? Still 24hrs'realities! We plan our lives so well, but anything can and does happen and then we get tested..... take care Amara, Sarah 1691 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit >Dear Sarah, > >Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to >Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya. > >pakatúpanissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third >decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya, the commentary >to the “Paěěhĺna” (the Pańcappakaraůatthakathĺ) explains the term >“pakata” in pakatúpanissaya. Pakata means done properly, done >thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were “done thoroughly”, often >performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual. >In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the >arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas >conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external >conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one >associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they >cause to arise. > I'm enjoying our paccaya (conditions) studies, even if I'm a bit slow... I should have 'twigged' you were talking about upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition ) and not nissaya paccaya as the latter made no sense in the context... I'm also looking at Nina's Conditions and the section on pakatupanissaya and am reflecting on the discussion with Leonardo about sila as there is a connction by pakatupanissaya for performing other kusala and developing wisdom... I'll quote (but excuse any changes as I'm quoting from an older (1990) edition of NVG's Conditions as haven't printed out the new one yet....it's rather spaced out for that): 'Also connected with the term pakatupanissaya is 'pakati' which means naturally, by nature. The conditioning factor conditions other dhammas to arise naturally, and it can condition them without the assistance of decisive support condition of object or proximate decisive support condition. For example, when there is strong saddha, confidence in kusala, it can be a cogent reason for the arising of kusala citta without there being the need to be dependent on decisive support condition of object and decisive support condition of proximity. We read in the "Patthana"...,that one, by the strong dependence of confidence performs dana, sila, develops jhana, learning, generosity or wisdom one performs kusala or develops jhana, insight, the Path...' ***** In other words all kinds of kusala can support each other by this condition. Thanks, Sarah 1692 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 2:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >...well, I'm still quite grateful for a pass to the >kids' table (or the doggie-door, for that >matter)--since you mention it, though, I've never >experienced even what I used to think were 'insights' >during 'formal meditation'--anything that's EVER >'clicked' 'for me' has done so in the course of >'everyday life'... ..and at unexpected times like during the cold shower! At this rate you'll be at the adult table in no time!! > > P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the > > experience of coldness > > through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 > > moments of dosa... > >This is very interesting! Sorry if this question is >inane, but any idea how long it takes for these 17 >moments to arise and subside? > Actually before I answer (or don't answer) yr qu, I need to correct myself on the quick, sloppy p.s. above... what i meant to say is that the rupa, say the 'cold' experienced lasts as long as 17 moments of citta....in fact this is how it can be experienced. I won't get too technical here and you can read it in NVG's Ab in DL or I can get technical in reply. out of these 17 cittas, 7 are the javana cittas (kusala or akusala cittas 'running through' the object and it's with these cittas only that there may be dosa, not with the 17 as I sloppily wrote above. In semi answer to yr qu, these 17 moments are far faster than we can imagine (Amara can probably give the precise answer)...when it seems there was a few moments' dosa, there were actually many, many, many processes or sets of cittas with many other realities in between. In fact it's rather remarkable that the characteristic of any reality can appear and be known..... Others may like to add more detail on this. Sarah > > Khun > > Sujin used to say to me when I had a nasty cold, >just > > a moment of unpleasant > > bodily feeling and then all those many moments of > > dosa are the real > > problem...looks like you don't need to be told! > >...no, the difference between the dukkhavedana and the >dosa are (grossly and conceptually) clear--in >retrospect, of course--but I think it'll be a long >time before I'll no longer benefit from being >reminded... > >Many thanks, as always, Sarah, > >Mike > > > > > 1693 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. > My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand > for the Ariya Disciples. Dear Alex, I find it very hard to respect them myself, except when they are performing some function of the sankha, for example when they teach the dhamma, (although when it is not according to the Tipitaka that can be cause for dosa too) or when they study the dhamma (like when they show an interest for books and such). > My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure > that they are not worthy? > > A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his > supporters see nothing wrong with it. I don't think I would go so far as to support even a layperson who's addicted to anything. For monks as for laypeople, substance abuse can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be harmful in the end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its derivatives is fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up these things, or even other possessions, could ever give up the self? Amara 1694 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:53pm Subject: Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death > Lots of realities to > >study in life! > > More than usual (realities to study)?!?! > > seems like that when we're busy, doesn't it? Still 24hrs'realities! We plan > our lives so well, but anything can and does happen and then we get > tested..... Dear Sarah, Let's say more variety of connotations to the six dvara! In other words, more pannati classifications to deal with than the 'normal day' which is continuing a few days more by the way! It is really wonderful that anything can be the object of awareness, isn't it, Amara 1695 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Gayan, Another good one--I particularly noted the term, 'sapitika tanha'--one to watch out for. This one can send you in circles like a dog, chasing it's own tail, for, well--aeons? I know... Thanks again, Mike --- protectID wrote: > > > > 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo > vangceti. > > 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in > the noble order. This > is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. > But it is not allowed for a monk to give to > laypeople other than the gifts > of the dhamma( dhammadanas). > Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the > commodities received as > alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with > monks , they will more > and more aims in return) > But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the > laypeple please by > giving material gifts and worldly gifts is > samvibhaga seelatha, but its > miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) > In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and > entertain a liking and > friendship with the monk, but the point is this type > of particular dhammas > can be associated with even a thief/criminal who > helps them, does > favourable things for them. > This may appear to build confidence in the lay > followers' minds but its is > a type of tanha associated with piti. > (sapitika tanha). > As always the idea here is to distinguish between > the kusala ad the > akusala. > No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is > detected. > > 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata > vangceti > > The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up > with the unsuitable, > unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay > followers is unsuitable. > Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( > the 32, ie..rajakata, > corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga > viharata is a quality that > should be developed by monks/yogins. > > the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything > for, ignoring the lay > followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not > gifting with dhamma > etc. > So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the > asamsaggaviharata. > This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the > yogins who have gone > forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in > observing the holylife. > So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. > > > contd. > > > 1696 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again Dear Amara and Alex, --- amara chay wrote: > > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I > > still show them my > > respect. > > My action is based on the fact that they are > > wearing the robe which > > stand > > for the Ariya Disciples. > > > Dear Alex, > > I find it very hard to respect them myself, except > when they are > performing some function of the sankha, for example > when they teach > the dhamma, (although when it is not according to > the Tipitaka that > can be cause for dosa too) or when they study the > dhamma (like when > they show an interest for books and such). > > > > My question is that should we continue support > > them when we know > > for sure > > that they are not worthy? > > > > A few months ago, some of my friends were > > talking about a 70+ > > year old > > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of > > his life. Of > > course, his > > supporters see nothing wrong with it. Ajahn Chah, a relentlessly observant monk, had a lifelong cigarette addiction. I think that, in the NE, old forest monks tended to identify smoking with use of betel-nut, neither of which they regarded as intoxicants. > I don't think I would go so far as to support even a > layperson who's > addicted to anything. For monks as for laypeople, > substance abuse > can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be > harmful in the > end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its > derivatives is > fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up > these things, or > even other possessions, could ever give up the self? After all, are not these the result of anusaya? And uncontrollable, until the right conditions arise? (By the way, smoking is no longer allowed in the wats of Ajahn Chah's tradtion...) Thanks in advance for corrections... Mike 1697 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert & Gayan, > well, I'm way behind you guys in this area...still > plenty of dosa (for me) > when I see poorly behaved monks altho' reminding > myself of what the sangha > represents helps a little, intellectually... Reading > & hearing incorrect > dhamma is a condition for more dosa too... Well, I'm about a lightyear behind ALL of you, but, Sarah, if, when encountering a corrupt monk or teaching, one looks at the 'instantaneously' arisen(real) dosa instead of the (unreal) monk or teaching, then...? > If I > heard something which didn't > seem correct on this list, that would be fine, as > I'd feel we could > help....but when there's no chance to help and the > only answer is equanimity > and awareness of the cittas, there's a problem. This > probably says more > about the dosa towards the dosa than anything else! > As we keep saying, who's > complaining about the lobha and moha? THAT's what I have the hardest time keeping in mind... Regards, Ma'am, mn 1698 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:15pm Subject: Re: The ugly void > We recently received a letter from a friend of 'mature' years who has been > experiencing some difficulties which some of you may be able to offer some > useful comments on. > > His wife recently had an accident which seems to have triggered off the > following thoughts. I might add that he joined only one discussion with Khun > Sujin in Hong Kong some years ago and now lives in London. Although he has > studied some books on Buddhism generally, he is not very familiar with Pali > terms. Pls address any responses to 'Dear N.' which I can then send on by > snail mail. > > I quote parts from his letter below. > > 'your card and your concern are so welcome. We have had the feeling of > being alone together for a long time now...and it is somewhat haunting, but > being alone ALONE is a difficult one here (in London).... > > I have not mentioned this to anyone but B. (his wife) and she isn't much for > such dialogue now, but being in essence a secular humanist (certainly I > don't believe there is a divine person who looks or should look.... on me > with a special kindness (why should that be?), the void is ugly...no one to > pray to, even knowing that there is no stimulus/response mechanism. > > Sorry for the sense of emptiness. The time is tough, but hopefully I'll be > tougher, > best, > N. Dear Sarah, Wouldn't it be wonderful if he could communicate with us here on the list via the internet? That should fill his void some! Failing that, I think you might send him some of our articles from the site, such as: Q&A 2 From: "amarin olarn" Subject: Dhamma question Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 10:34:59 GMT Please answer Khun Kalya's question, 'Why were we born?' Thank you, Olarn Why were we born? Because it is such a short question, before answering we would like to establish some common grounds as to the aspects of the question you asked about. What does the word 'why' infer? Does it mean one or all of the following: to perform which functions, for what purpose, or is it a reproach, whyever were we born, maybe it would have been better that we had not. This answer is intended for these three interpretations, so if we have misunderstood the question please send us another. If you wanted to know what we are to do to be worth the while to have been born, you must have heard that to be born a human is very difficult. When life leaves a world or a lifetime, the chances of being reborn in other worlds than the human one is extremely high. The best thing about being born a human is the privilege to study the dhamma towards the realization and attainment of nibbana. Planes of existence lower than the human one are too tormenting, while the higher ones are too pleasurable, or have too long a lifespan to easily see the dukkha of samsara-vatta. Even the Buddhas were all enlightened in their human rebirths. Since we were born humans, especially having had the chance to hear the Buddha's teachings of the dhamma, we should use this rare privilege to develop sati-patthana, increase panna and even if we do not become enlightened to attain nibbana in this lifetime, we would have accumulated conditions for enlightenment in future lives. If you wondered for what purpose we were born, that it seems useless, perhaps even harmful, or that there should never have been any humans at all, then the distinct births of things is not dictated or controlled by anyone, but happen according to causes and conditions. Kamma performed in the past, both kusala and akusala, would be paccaya for citta, cetasika and rupa to arise, and each time they fall away, there are conditions for others to immediately arise in continuation. As long as there are conditions to be born, there must be rebirth. Through eternity we have traveled the innumerable rounds of samsara-vatta; according to worldly values we would have done incalculable deeds of goodness and maybe much harm also. We must have already been born both in the highset heaven and the lowest hell. The worlds or rebirths are not important in the least. What matters is whether we realize that samsara-vatta is to be relinquished. If we really see the harm of being born and truly wish to abandon it, we would be able to do so by acheiving nibbana. Those who have attained nibbana are the arahanta. They have abandoned both the kusala and akusala, eradicated all paccaya for rebirths. Nibbana is the reality that does not arise, therefore it does not fall away. The reason that some wonder why we were ever born is because they feel that life is dukkha and wish to escape it. The important thing is whether we understand what dukkha is. How do you understand the tilakkhana or the three characteristics of sankhara-dhamma, namely aniccata, dukkhata and anattata? Dukkha is not the reality that dislikes, is troubled or worried, or sad and depressed. The Buddhist terms for these characteristics are dosa. If the causes of these feelings were to disappear, would you still feel that life is unhappiness? Dukkha, the characteristic of all sankhara-dhamma, is the characteristic of impermanence, being subject to changes, to arisings and falling aways. In reality we have gone through these rounds of rebirth for such an eternity because of our attachments to life, or to being and existing. This pleasure in being born is there at every birth, even in a person who is born in the lowest hell. As soon as the patisandhi citta had arisen, the pleasure in being born would arise. This contentment is extremely hard to abandon, it takes the inestimably supreme panna of the Samma-sambuddha to realize and to relinquish. The Buddha taught us to abandon ties, withdraw from attachments to kama, to see the harm of kama, and showed us dukkha, the causes of dukkha, the eradication of dukkha, and the practice towards the eradication. Only when we are able to acheive what he has shown us can we really transcend dukkha. ********* Also perhaps the second part of Q&A 3: Question: What to do if one wants to practice the dhamma towards release, when one has to live in this world of chaos, confusion and contention? Having seen birth, aging, sickness and death, I don't want to be reborn. Answer: You 'wish to practice the dhamma towards release' but feel that the life full of chaos, confusion and contention presents an obstacle. On this subject, we would like you to consider the lives of two savaka during the times of the Buddha, namely the venerable Yasa and the slave woman Rajjumala when they first heard and became steadfast in Buddhism. Yasa had an extremely comfortable life, as the only son of a wealthy family. That he walked along musing, 'what a chaotic, problematic place this is' was not the result of any physical or mental disaster, but because his accumulations made him see the truth that to be born and alive was dukkha, the cause of problems and chaos. Thus when he heard the dhamma he was able to immediately realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma with his fully accumulated panna. The life of Rajjumala was the direct opposite; she was a slave woman whose master cruelly abused in all manners. She was repeatedly seized by the hair and injured, forcing her to shave her head in the hope of avoiding the punishment. Instead the master wound a cord around her head in order to seize and beat and abuse her as before, so that she was known as Rajjumala. She was so tired of living that she wanted to commit suicide. Then she met the Buddha and heard his teachings which made her reconsider and ended her unhappiness, rendering her mind light and clear, steadfast in the dhamma, until she realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma to become the sotapanna. These two examples show that the comfort or the chaotic problems of life are not paccaya for anyone to attain release. Only when there is enough accumulated wisdom to reach 'the maturity of nana' would they be able to achieve nibbana when they hear the dhamma. The venerable Yasa's life, free of suffering, did not make him overlook the problems and chaos of being born. Rajjumala attained the dhamma even though the harsh cruelty of her situation as a slave woman remained. These days there probably still are some of us who lead comfortable lives like the venerable Yasa's, while many suffer like Rajjumala. There must be some who have read or heard the teachings of the Buddha in books or dhamma presentations, but has anyone attained sotapanna? Life in this world, no matter the circumstances, is entirely the vipaka of kamma. When it is the kusala vipaka, one receives good aramana as ittharammana. When it is the akusala vipaka, it would be anittharammana. Having seen this one should not be disturbed by the results of kamma: not given to dosa when receiving things one dislikes, nor to lobha when receiving things one likes and desires, not to moha which arises with every citta that does not evolve with dana, sila or bhavana. You are 'tired of chaos, confusion and contention, and having seen birth, aging, sickness and death, don't want to be reborn,' ' want to practice the dhamma towards release' from 'this troubled, chaotic world'. If the chaotic trouble were to disappear, for example your situation improves, you receive all you ever wanted, those who give you trouble stop or leave you alone; or you reach a heavenly plane where there is only great happiness exempt from old age or death, or patisandhi in the brahma world to maintain that status for so long that death seems an impossibility: would you still wish to 'practice the dhamma towards release'? Or would you then consider that your goals have been reached? It would not be like the venerable Yasa who saw trouble and chaos in a life without hardship. Any unpleasant or undesirable feeling is dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want. But a closer enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha. Generally overlooked because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy that pleases with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to overcome. When you see the trouble, chaos, and contention of life, the dukkha of being born, growing old and dying, and see that to avoid all this is not to be reborn; how can the latter happen? By being able to relinquish the desire to have and to be, or bhavatanha, by severing all paccaya to be born again or to attenuate the attachments to everything. The Buddha said that to have a hundred loves is to have a hundred dukkha; one love, one dukkha; none, no dukkha. To be able to relinquish desires one must study the true essence of Buddhism. Read or listen to the dhamma until you understand, follow the reasoning conscientiously, and develop satipatthana, be aware of one's citta to realize the arising and falling away of all dhamma that evolve according to conditions, beyond anyone's power of control, or the self. Continue to accumulate and develop until 'the maturity of nana' is reached for panna to arise and truly fully realize the dhamma. ********** Do you think it might help? Amara 1699 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > what i meant to > say is that the rupa, say > the 'cold' experienced lasts as long as 17 moments > of citta....in fact this > is how it can be experienced. I won't get too > technical here and you can > read it in NVG's Ab in DL or I can get technical in > reply. out of these 17 > cittas, 7 are the javana cittas (kusala or akusala > cittas 'running through' > the object and it's with these cittas only that > there may be dosa, not with > the 17 as I sloppily wrote above. > > In semi answer to yr qu, these 17 moments are far > faster than we can imagine I assumed so, that an observable or remember-able period must have contained oh-my-gosh astronomical numbers of these 17-moment series... > (Amara can probably give the precise answer)...when > it seems there was a few > moments' dosa, there were actually many, many, many > processes or sets of > cittas with many other realities in between. In fact > it's rather remarkable > that the characteristic of any reality can appear > and be known..... Anyway, thanks for the clarifications. MUCH more homework for me... Mike 1700 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > Ajahn Chah, a relentlessly observant monk, had a > lifelong cigarette addiction. I think that, in the > NE, old forest monks tended to identify smoking with > use of betel-nut, neither of which they regarded as > intoxicants. Dear Mike, With the right understanding of a certain level, I doubt that there can be any addiction, without the self, how can there be? A bhikkhu being eaten by a tiger attained arahantship, what's some physical or mental malaise to someone with higher understanding? As to addiction/normal usage, I think one needs not be a monk to tell the difference in the desire (lobha) for certain effects and feelings derived from the practice, whatever it is. Certainly with awareness one can tell if it is lobha or upekkha in 'addictions'. > > I don't think I would go so far as to support even a > > layperson who's > > addicted to anything. For monks as for laypeople, > > substance abuse > > can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be > > harmful in the > > end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its > > derivatives is > > fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up > > these things, or > > even other possessions, could ever give up the self? > > After all, are not these the result of anusaya? And > uncontrollable, until the right conditions arise? (By > the way, smoking is no longer allowed in the wats of > Ajahn Chah's tradtion...) Certainly, but remember that the anusaya are completely eradicated by attainment, respectively, level by level. Which does not mean that one should rush to satisfy the anusaya (latent tendencies, more or less imperceptible, perhaps you meant the vasana?) which hasn't arisen, nor indulge any indulgences where really avoidable. For an extreme example I would respect the foulest drunkard if he could teach me the right dhamma, but I still probably wouldn't buy him a drink. I have heard that smoking could be good for some kinds of asthma and two or three cigarettes could be medically recommended, so it doesn't mean that the opposite extreme could be good, except for bhikkhus who, by ordaining, have announced to the world that they are trying to follow the footsteps of the ariya. Shouldn't they know that such addictions are nothing compared to the addictions to life? How would they be able to give up the self, meaning all the six dvara of the world, since they cannot give up these little habits? Amara 1701 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:22pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > I have heard that smoking could be good for some kinds of > asthma and two or three cigarettes could be medically recommended, > so it doesn't mean that the opposite extreme could be good, except > for bhikkhus who, by ordaining, have announced to the world that > they are trying to follow the footsteps of the ariya. Dear all, Sorry to correct myself again, actually I thing that medical purposes are the only areas where all kinds of addictive substances can be used as necessary. Vinaya experts please correct me if I am wrong, Amara 1702 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, I agree: I can respect the monkhood and the robe, but not necessarily the person wearing the robe if that person is not worthy. But, fortunately, I have met many monks worthy of great respect here as well. My son has been a monk for 6 phansa at Wat Bavornives, and through him I have met some wonderful monks with great learning. One of them, in fact, was instrumental in leading me to contact dhammastudy.com in the first place, so I feel very indebted and grateful to them. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > Dear Betty, > > Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the Path. > They create terrible kamma for themselves. > > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. > My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand > for the Ariya Disciples. > > My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure > that they are not worthy? > > A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his > supporters see nothing wrong with it. > > Anumodana, > Alex > ================== > >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > > >> >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:41:26 +0700 > > > >Dear Alex, > >Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken > >the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the > >Path. > >One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the > >Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to > >bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is > >attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them > >don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these > >goings > >on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be > >worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, > >all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are > >at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give > >thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha > >meant them to be studied. > > > >with metta, > >Betty > >__________________________ > >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > >Bangkok 10900, Thailand > >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > >protectID> > > > > > > 1703 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:55pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > But, fortunately, I > have met many monks worthy of great respect here as well. Dear Betty, I agree that to hear a learned monk is one of the most impressive experiences in one's life. Amara 1704 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again Dear Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > With the right understanding of a certain level, I > doubt that there > can be any addiction, without the self, how can > there be? I honestly don't have enough understanding of physical addiction to answer that, Amara--in fact, I'll gladly defer to your knowledge of the subject... > A bhikkhu > being eaten by a tiger attained arahantship, what's > some physical or > mental malaise to someone with higher understanding? > As to > addiction/normal usage, I think one needs not be a > monk to tell the > difference in the desire (lobha) for certain effects > and feelings > derived from the practice, whatever it is. ...true... > Certainly with awareness > one can tell if it is lobha or upekkha in > 'addictions'. Surely! > > > I don't think I would go so far as to support > even a > > > layperson who's > > > addicted to anything. For monks as for > laypeople, > > > substance abuse > > > can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can > be > > > harmful in the > > > end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or > its > > > derivatives is > > > fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up > > > these things, or > > > even other possessions, could ever give up the > self? > > > > After all, are not these the result of anusaya? > And > > uncontrollable, until the right conditions arise? > (By > > the way, smoking is no longer allowed in the wats > of > > Ajahn Chah's tradtion...) > > > Certainly, but remember that the anusaya are > completely eradicated > by attainment, respectively, level by level. ...right... > Which > does not mean > that one should rush to satisfy the anusaya (latent > tendencies, more > or less imperceptible, perhaps you meant the > vasana?) Well, I was groping for the correct term, in this context, for 'accumulations'. As you know, my grasp of abhidhamma, much less it's terminology, doesn't qualify even as elementary. I should probably stop trying to use these expressions till I know what I'm talking about...! > which hasn't > arisen, nor indulge any indulgences where really > avoidable. For an > extreme example I would respect the foulest drunkard > if he could > teach me the right dhamma, but I still probably > wouldn't buy him a > drink. I have heard that smoking could be good for > some kinds of > asthma and two or three cigarettes could be > medically recommended, > so it doesn't mean that the opposite extreme could > be good, except > for bhikkhus who, by ordaining, have announced to > the world that > they are trying to follow the footsteps of the > ariya. Shouldn't > they know that such addictions are nothing compared > to the > addictions to life? How would they be able to give > up the self, > meaning all the six dvara of the world, since they > cannot give up > these little habits? But is there anyone to give up the self, or any of these little habits? Thanks, as always, Amara, for helping to take these baby-steps--ridiculous though they are in a grown man... Mike 1705 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:34pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > > But is there anyone to give up the self, or any of > these little habits? Dear Mike, Precisely, there is only the illusion of self in the clinging. Or panna that knows that there is no self at all, and therefore no habit to give up. I don't know if my writings do more help than harm, but I would like to give a try at explaining things as well as I could. I think most of the time my intentions have been kusala rather than akusala, all the same. Which does not stop me from making mistakes, that's for sure. And anyone who does not find my explanations to their taste could easily skip reading them, I would think! Amara 1706 From: m. nease Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 0:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again Dear Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Precisely, there is only the illusion of self in the > clinging. Or > panna that knows that there is no self at all, and > therefore no > habit to give up. > > I don't know if my writings do more help than harm, I certainly think they have done and continue to do a world of help! > but I would like > to give a try at explaining things as well as I > could. I think most > of the time my intentions have been kusala rather > than akusala, all > the same. I have no doubt of it! > Which does not stop me from making > mistakes, that's for > sure. And anyone who does not find my explanations > to their taste > could easily skip reading them, I would think! Amara, I have nothing but admiration for your explanations. I hope you would never imagine that I would ever skip reading them--since discovering this list, they have been one of the highlights of every day. If my akusala ramblings have given cause for offense, please accept my apologies! By the way, I hope I didn't seem to be excusing the behavior of unobservant monks. I can't think of a happier life than that of an observant monk who understands the dhammavinaya, or a more debased life than that of an unobservant monk who doesn't. I hope to experience the former some day soon. For now, I'm just trying to fit my (very limited) understanding into the discussions of you, my teachers (all of you)--I would not presume to criticize, even if I thought you were wrong (which I don't!) Thanks to you all for your patience--and I do understand if you run out. Maybe I should just be quiet and listen for a while... mn 1707 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 0:54am Subject: Re: Karaoke again > I hope you would never imagine that I > would ever skip reading them--since discovering this > list, they have been one of the highlights of every > day. If my akusala ramblings have given cause for > offense, please accept my apologies! Dear Mike, Please take it easy, I'm not such an ogre as you may think! I was not the least bit upset, I assure you, no appologies needed. > By the way, I hope I didn't seem to be excusing the > behavior of unobservant monks. I can't think of a > happier life than that of an observant monk who > understands the dhammavinaya, or a more debased life > than that of an unobservant monk who doesn't. I hope > to experience the former some day soon. For now, I'm > just trying to fit my (very limited) understanding > into the discussions of you, my teachers (all of > you)--I would not presume to criticize, even if I > thought you were wrong (which I don't!) > > Thanks to you all for your patience--and I do > understand if you run out. Maybe I should just be > quiet and listen for a while... Absolutely not, we shall miss you too much, I hope I have enough patience for a hundred like you who really wish to learn. Please remember that dhamma should bring kusala and not the reverse, I only thought that just in case anyone found akusala arising from my writings, they should naturally not read it. Anything so long as understanding and kusala grows, Amara 1708 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 1:12am Subject: Re: Karaoke again Dear all, This is the wicked witch of the west- er- east? siging off for the night, see you all tomorrow, including you, Mike, or I'll turn you into a mouse (computer clicker)!!! Amara 1709 From: m. nease Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 1:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again I won't sleep a wink! And pleasant dreams to you, Ma'am... --- amara chay wrote: > Dear all, > > This is the wicked witch of the west- er- east? > siging off for the > night, see you all tomorrow, including you, Mike, or > I'll turn you > into a mouse (computer clicker)!!! > > Amara > > 1710 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 12:37:23 -0000 > > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my >respect. > > My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which >stand > > for the Ariya Disciples. > > >Dear Alex, > >I find it very hard to respect them myself, except when they are >performing some function of the sankha, for example when they teach >the dhamma, (although when it is not according to the Tipitaka that >can be cause for dosa too) or when they study the dhamma (like when >they show an interest for books and such). Dear Amara, Perhaps, the reason I show them my respect (with politeness) is because I'm a coward. I still talk to them even though the small talk will be very small (read short). > > My question is that should we continue support them when we know >for sure > > that they are not worthy? > > > > A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ >year old > > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of >course, his > > supporters see nothing wrong with it. > > >I don't think I would go so far as to support even a layperson who's >addicted to anything. I agree with you. When I voiced my opinion, some of my friends told me indirectly to ... shut up! They warned me about creating verbal kamma. :-))) >For monks as for laypeople, substance abuse >can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be harmful in the >end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its derivatives is >fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up these things, or >even other possessions, could ever give up the self? :-))) Anumodana, Alex Tran 1711 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit >Dear Sarah, > >I am sorry for the sloppy pali and english mix-up that I had; I still >haven't >looked at Nina's materials (have them on my computer now; thanks to >Robert), so I still don't know the right spellings. The "nisaya" that >was in >my earlier post, as below, is in fact a detailed classification of >"upanissaya" >pacaya: a mile apart from what my posting implied. There are three >detailed classification: >Aramanuapanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as sense object >Anatarupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya in the same way as anatara pacaya >Pakatupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as something that gets accumulated >(???: I will search more on this for a better translation). o.k. we've sorted this out & as i said, I should have realised this is what you were referring to! > >Therefore, for phassa being pacaya for the vedana arising after it, it >is not a >nissaya pacaya, but it is a upanissaya pacaya. > right you are! >For the reference materials that I have regarding Nissaya pacaya, there >are >only three detailed classifications: > > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya > > (base-object-prenascence-dependence) > > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) > > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) > >I don't have the fourth one in the materials, and my understanding of >pali is >so superficial that I can't even guess what the fourth one is: > > 4.-sahajata-purejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) >I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on the 4th. > o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks than in its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf! This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata niss.) above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not pure prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent mental aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.' It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time. One example would be where a combination is taking place such as when visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7 primary mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya above (1., 2. and 3.....I think!) I don't know if this helps...... What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the vultures, is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again i quote from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have arisen previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause the arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these rupas have arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta.' '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on the previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning later but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast learner (I don't just mean intellectually)! Sarah p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia? if so, I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin. 1712 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 9:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan and group, I flew up to osaka yesterday - go to a conference tommorow- and am now in an internet lounge (paying through the nose) so will make a brief reply only. --- protectID wrote: > >> Dear Robert, > now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, > not tanha, > what you said was quite clear, > please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end > desire , > so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta > , viriya, > vimamsa) > ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for > spiritual development) > some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic > attainments , > another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( > sotapanna ) and to > be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha > warned) > one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to > any sort of a > realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) This is all thinking about dhamma. What is underlying the thinking? Is it panna or is it lobha? So very easy when we are thinking about nibbana and attainments and beibg sotappana to overlook the actual moments. Any attainments come only because there has been, over and over, uncountable times, life after life, the study of this moment with a citta rooted in amoha -panna. Even if the thinking is kusala it should be known that we cant control whether we wil have chanda or viriya or vimasa or citta as a dominant iddhipada. The conditions are far too complex for this to be arranged. Thinking that we should have chanda is likely to be conditioned by a subtle belief in a self that can do so. You didn:t arrange to be born in sri lanka, nor could you decide to be interested in Abhidhamma - these things happened because there was kusala chanda, for sure, but not because you tried to have kusala chanda. Do you see the difference? > > knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not > a sort of a > panna? > > (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) > > and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood > or suta buddhahood > what drives them? a sort of a desire? They have kusala chanda of the highest degree - but not by wanting kusala chanda. > > > Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what > I have in mind (to > get clarified from you) keep asking on these points. they are very difficult and I am just touching on some aspects. We should look at this type of question from many different angles. Jon and sarah and Amara and Kom and all will have comments too. It is something that I think is m\valuable. > > :o) > > yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex > discussions carried > on in this e community..but I thought that this is an > opportunity to know > whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a > disadvantageous ditthi > thanx in advance. Not elementary - very helpful. Pondering these questions can teach us much. Robert > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=pic08256.pcx 1714 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 10:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks a million for your explanation. Robert !! Your explanation is very clear. Yes, what I meant was lobha but moha made cause the mistyping in the word. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear shin, | | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, | > The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a | > sotapanna ??? | | No, namarupapariccheda- nana (distinguishing of nama and rupa) | is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as ditthi | visuddhhi(purification of view)and is the most important stage | before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the first stage | of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained it when | they concentrate and know, for example, that first there is the | intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is actually much | more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained how at that | moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the rapidity of | chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the difference | between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only occur when | wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, considering ( of | the types done with mahakusala citta associated with panna | (wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly noted, having | studied (with panna) again and again the visesa lakkhana of | different dhammas. | | Sometimes alobha likes that low level of | > satipanna | > which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. | | I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not alobha. This | actually occurs after namarupapariccheda- nana and it shows just | how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very purified and it is | clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still tanha creeps in | and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick us before | that stage? | | But I think the low level | > satipanna is visesa | > lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and | > it increases | > faith in the teaching as it happens. | | Any true understanding increases faith in the teaching | Robert | | > ----- | 1715 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Good explanation. Alex. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again | Dear Betty, | | Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the Path. | They create terrible kamma for themselves. | | However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. | My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand | for the Ariya Disciples. | | My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure | that they are not worthy? | | A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old | senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his | supporters see nothing wrong with it. | | Anumodana, | Alex | ================== | >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" | | >| >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again | >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:41:26 +0700 | > | >Dear Alex, | >Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken | >the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the | >Path. | >One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the | >Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to | >bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is | >attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them | >don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these | >goings | >on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be | >worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, | >all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are | >at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give | >thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha | >meant them to be studied. | > | >with metta, | >Betty | >__________________________ | >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | >Bangkok 10900, Thailand | >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | >protectID| > | > | > | > | 1716 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Shin, I still have a lot of dosa, mana, and upadana as well as other not mentioned akusala characters. As the result, I have a long long way to go due to my judgemental attitude. Anumodana, Alex ================ >From: "shinlin" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:16:09 +0700 > >Good explanation. Alex. >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th >----- Original Message ----- >From: A T >>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:22 PM >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > > >| Dear Betty, >| >| Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the >Path. >| They create terrible kamma for themselves. >| >| However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my >respect. >| My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand >| for the Ariya Disciples. >| >| My question is that should we continue support them when we know for >sure >| that they are not worthy? >| >| A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old >| senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, >his >| supporters see nothing wrong with it. >| >| Anumodana, >| Alex > 1717 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Robert, loads of punnakamma for the explanation/dhamma gift, thanx!! I am sure that I will receive the answers to other questions I asked , when you have enough time. I also like for explanations on , perfecting panna( panna parami ) --- > panna and what is the way you have in mind as to use 'chanda' ( as in 4 iddhipadas) ? Thanks again for your compassion! rgds Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/03/2000 07:15:01 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan and group, I flew up to osaka yesterday - go to a conference tommorow- and am now in an internet lounge (paying through the nose) so will make a brief reply only. --- protectID wrote: > >> Dear Robert, > now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, > not tanha, > what you said was quite clear, > please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end > desire , > so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta > , viriya, > vimamsa) > ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for > spiritual development) > some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic > attainments , > another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( > sotapanna ) and to > be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha > warned) > one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to > any sort of a > realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) This is all thinking about dhamma. What is underlying the thinking? Is it panna or is it lobha? So very easy when we are thinking about nibbana and attainments and beibg sotappana to overlook the actual moments. Any attainments come only because there has been, over and over, uncountable times, life after life, the study of this moment with a citta rooted in amoha -panna. Even if the thinking is kusala it should be known that we cant control whether we wil have chanda or viriya or vimasa or citta as a dominant iddhipada. The conditions are far too complex for this to be arranged. Thinking that we should have chanda is likely to be conditioned by a subtle belief in a self that can do so. You didn:t arrange to be born in sri lanka, nor could you decide to be interested in Abhidhamma - these things happened because there was kusala chanda, for sure, but not because you tried to have kusala chanda. Do you see the difference? > > knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not > a sort of a > panna? > > (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) > > and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood > or suta buddhahood > what drives them? a sort of a desire? They have kusala chanda of the highest degree - but not by wanting kusala chanda. > > > Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what > I have in mind (to > get clarified from you) keep asking on these points. they are very difficult and I am just touching on some aspects. We should look at this type of question from many different angles. Jon and sarah and Amara and Kom and all will have comments too. It is something that I think is m\valuable. > > :o) > > yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex > discussions carried > on in this e community..but I thought that this is an > opportunity to know > whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a > disadvantageous ditthi > thanx in advance. Not elementary - very helpful. Pondering these questions can teach us much. Robert > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=pic08256.pcx 1718 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 1:10pm Subject: Ch VII 15. samgaha seelata patirupataya ananulomika samsagga vangceti. kusala samgahaseelata - gifting the (lay ..etc)followers with the dhamma, gifting the allowed ( brethern..) with helpful 'materials' , acting with amity for everyone, acting with compassion for the others..... This samgahaseelatha is a quality developed by samana/yogins. akusala ananulomikasamsagga - the mixing up with unallowed, unsuitable and affairs therein. The cheating of ananulomikasamsagga as samgahaseelatha happens not in the minds of crooks but ones who are thinking that they are actually developing a kusala. This can be detected as, One will 'feel' like much metta and samgahaseelatha for some rich followers, the people ( spouse,offsprings, etc..) of such followers. But He won't feel that with the poor ones. When cheated ,the tendency to liking the worldly affairs , taking part in them etc .. with those rich ones , can be detected. with 'real' samgahaseelatha those would not arise. 16. saccavadita patirupataya pisunavacata vangceti. saccavadita - speaking the truth, no lies, no half-truths. pisunavacata- slandering regardless of the truth or fallacy in it, slandering is akusala and miccavaca. Sometimes ones who do slandering , internally get cheated as thinking ' this is the quality of telling the truth and that is a kusala ' . 17. apisunavadita patirupataya anatthakamata vangceti. The evil of slandering is the intention to mess with the common understanding of a one with another. It is not a 'papakamma' to tell warn about a person ( or rather the evil qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of the 'another'. It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a possible harm.( a sappurisa quality ) Intention is the key here. Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not say pisunavaca..." is a stage which needs to be further examined. In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left that they sometimes have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. Anatthakamatha..... ( anattha - harm ). This cheats them . The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine apisunavacata or a cheating akusala. ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as akusala ) contd. 1719 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Nothing much to do for now in Osaka (choice of a karaoke, movie or noisy bar later tonight) so I will benefit the local economy by paying their steep internet charges. I was suprised to hear that a famous monk, Achaan cha used to smoke. It is not specifically banned in the Vinaya, thus technically one can get around it, but definitely goes against the spirit, for the reasons Amara so ably explained. I read once that his teacher Acharn Mun was also a smoker so I guess it was part of the scence in the old days. You dont see many monks smoking now. On the question of laypeople smoking. I think leave this up to conditions. It is not breaking any of the 5precepts - it is simply an unheathy habit. It wont hinder one studying abhidhamma. Sometimes it even helps people concentrate - much as having a coke or coffee can at times. For some of us it is very easy to drop such bad habits, for others very hard. I think we should not put much pressure on smokers, as other things are more important. Going broader now, and looking at lifestyles. Some cannot even keep the 5 precepts. there was a monk in the Buddhas time who couldnt cope with the severity of living a monks life so he went back to being a layman. Took to drink in a major way and in no long time was an alcoholic. He remained so until the very day he died - his last breath smelled of alcohol, it is said. when the monks asked the Buddha where he was reborn - expecting to be told in hell or as an animal- they were shocked when the Buddha said he was now in the deva realm and had attained sotapanna at the time of his death. The Buddha expalined that he had great confidence in Dhamma, still listened to Dhamma whenever he could, and had accumulated the conditions for deep wisdom. This is an unusual case but it shows us the great power of Dhamma. One of the people I admire most in Thailand (apart from the obvious ones) is a pig farmer. He is a student of Khun Thanit. As I mentioned on another post Khun Thanit really hammers home the teachings on sila. It is quite usual for one of his talks to give a detail or two about the terrors of the hell realms and how breaking sila is one way to get there. This mans livelihood is involved in growing pigs and butchering them - a very severe break in sila. However he cannot easily give up his business. It is not so easy to change profession in Thailand if you are a normal working man. But he is interested in Abhidhamma and convinced by the teachings. This is kusala of a very high level. The akusala of killing will bring its results sooner or later but so too the kusala of listening and considering will bring its profound results. he knows this and continues to listen - many in his position would rather not hear about such matters and so lose the chance to accumulate any wisdom. Robert 1720 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VII Brilliant stuff again Gayan. Completely daily life- as the Dhamma always is. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > 15. samgaha seelata patirupataya ananulomika samsagga > vangceti. > > kusala samgahaseelata - gifting the (lay ..etc)followers with > the dhamma, > gifting the allowed ( brethern..) with helpful 'materials' , > acting with amity > for everyone, acting with compassion for the others..... > This samgahaseelatha is a quality developed by samana/yogins. > > akusala ananulomikasamsagga - the mixing up with unallowed, > unsuitable and > affairs therein. > > The cheating of ananulomikasamsagga as samgahaseelatha happens > not in the minds > of crooks but ones who are thinking that they are actually > developing a kusala. > This can be detected as, > > One will 'feel' like much metta and samgahaseelatha for some > rich followers, > the people ( spouse,offsprings, etc..) of such followers. > But He won't feel that with the poor ones. > > When cheated ,the tendency to liking the worldly affairs , > taking part in them > etc .. with those rich ones , can be detected. > > with 'real' samgahaseelatha those would not arise. > > > 16. saccavadita patirupataya pisunavacata vangceti. > > saccavadita - speaking the truth, no lies, no half-truths. > pisunavacata- slandering > > > regardless of the truth or fallacy in it, slandering is > akusala and miccavaca. > Sometimes ones who do slandering , internally get cheated as > thinking ' this is > the quality of telling the truth and that is a kusala ' . > > > > 17. apisunavadita patirupataya anatthakamata vangceti. > > The evil of slandering is the intention to mess with the > common understanding of > a one with another. > It is not a 'papakamma' to tell warn about a person ( or > rather the evil > qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of > the 'another'. > It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a > possible harm.( a > sappurisa quality ) > Intention is the key here. > > Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not > say pisunavaca..." > is a stage which needs to be further examined. > In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left > that they sometimes > have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. > Anatthakamatha..... > ( anattha - harm ). > This cheats them . > The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine > apisunavacata or > a cheating akusala. > ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as > akusala ) > > > > contd. > > > 1721 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the > "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks > than in its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf! > > This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata > niss.) > above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence > (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not > pure > prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent > mental > aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning > states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.' > > It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time. > One example would be where a combination is taking place such as > when > visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7 > primary > mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya > above > (1., 2. and 3.....I think!) > > I don't know if this helps...... Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for confusion are the followings: 1) When discussing pacaya, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and the conditioned dhamma (paccayapanna dhamma) can be pinned down from both time and type. For example, phassa arising now is an ahara pacaya for the citta arising at the same time. 2) This doesn't seem to be true to the 4th classification: I can't think of any pacaya dhamma than can be both sahajata (rupa nama being pacaya to rupa nama) and purejata (rupa being pacaya to nama) at the same time. 3) Dhammas that can be Vathupurejata pacaya to nama are the base objects, but only the heartbase can be sahajata to the patisandhi nama. However, the heartbase can't be both sahajata and Vathupurejata pacaya to the same nama at the same time: it can be sahajata to patisandhi namas, and then Vathupurejata for different sets of nama arising after it. 4) What I understand from your conclusion is that this particular condition MUST have multiple dhammas contributing as pacayas. 5) This is certainly different from the explanations of other pacayas as the explanations follow rule 1) above. 6) I think the other classifications of nissaya (sahajata, vathupurejata, vatharamanapurejata) have already covered the condition explained in sahajata-vathupurejata missaka. 7) Possibly, this is the reason why other sources don't discuss these 4th classification. 8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!! > > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the > vultures, > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again > i quote > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have > arisen > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause > the > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these > rupas have > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as > seventeen moments of citta.' > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on > the > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does > not > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be purejata (pre-nascence) sahajata (conascence) paccajata (post-nascense) Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be: atthi (presence-condition) natthi (absence-condition) vigata (disappearance [gone]) avigata (non-disappearance [still there]) Just the combination of the jata and the presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind- boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc... > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning > later > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways: 1) cause of arising 2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???) 3) both cause of arising and support > > Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast > learner (I > don't just mean intellectually)! Thanks. I only quote from some books every time your prompt me. > p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia? > if so, > I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin. I am going through the infamous INS naturalization interview on Nov 16, making it impossible to make an advanced arrangement. Unless the interview goes well, AND there is still a space left [I think unlikely] in the tour group leaving for Cambodia, I won't be joining you. However, Khun Jack, Khun Oy, and Khun O are joining. Khun Jack is also particularly keen on the pacaya discussions; I believe he will be asking for Tan A. Sujin to elaborate on the subject. Anumodhana 1722 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Dear robert, A brilliant piece !, the story of Sarakani the sakyan ( the alcoholic) Its one of my favourites and it magnificiently shows the 'meaningfulness' of what buddha taught, why it is the real refuge. [ The tipitaka brilliantly displays the ideas went thru the minds of the public at that time.. they criticized saying that , ie.." ah, even the alcoholics can be sotapanna these days....." ] And I also 'suffered' with a shockwave reading in the list about that smoking habit of ven Chah, ( that was news for me) But eventually was relieved to see that no shake has happened inside about the confidence that had in his teachings. And a 'whew' followed. rgds. Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/03/2000 01:05:29 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Nothing much to do for now in Osaka (choice of a karaoke, movie or noisy bar later tonight) so I will benefit the local economy by paying their steep internet charges. I was suprised to hear that a famous monk, Achaan cha used to smoke. It is not specifically banned in the Vinaya, thus technically one can get around it, but definitely goes against the spirit, for the reasons Amara so ably explained. I read once that his teacher Acharn Mun was also a smoker so I guess it was part of the scence in the old days. You dont see many monks smoking now. On the question of laypeople smoking. I think leave this up to conditions. It is not breaking any of the 5precepts - it is simply an unheathy habit. It wont hinder one studying abhidhamma. Sometimes it even helps people concentrate - much as having a coke or coffee can at times. For some of us it is very easy to drop such bad habits, for others very hard. I think we should not put much pressure on smokers, as other things are more important. Going broader now, and looking at lifestyles. Some cannot even keep the 5 precepts. there was a monk in the Buddhas time who couldnt cope with the severity of living a monks life so he went back to being a layman. Took to drink in a major way and in no long time was an alcoholic. He remained so until the very day he died - his last breath smelled of alcohol, it is said. when the monks asked the Buddha where he was reborn - expecting to be told in hell or as an animal- they were shocked when the Buddha said he was now in the deva realm and had attained sotapanna at the time of his death. The Buddha expalined that he had great confidence in Dhamma, still listened to Dhamma whenever he could, and had accumulated the conditions for deep wisdom. This is an unusual case but it shows us the great power of Dhamma. One of the people I admire most in Thailand (apart from the obvious ones) is a pig farmer. He is a student of Khun Thanit. As I mentioned on another post Khun Thanit really hammers home the teachings on sila. It is quite usual for one of his talks to give a detail or two about the terrors of the hell realms and how breaking sila is one way to get there. This mans livelihood is involved in growing pigs and butchering them - a very severe break in sila. However he cannot easily give up his business. It is not so easy to change profession in Thailand if you are a normal working man. But he is interested in Abhidhamma and convinced by the teachings. This is kusala of a very high level. The akusala of killing will bring its results sooner or later but so too the kusala of listening and considering will bring its profound results. he knows this and continues to listen - many in his position would rather not hear about such matters and so lose the chance to accumulate any wisdom. Robert 1723 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, The defilements or kilesas are not you. Ha.... Ha... So when there is an arising of your kusula thinking or view, then it is just a chance of my anumodana to you, which is one way of accumulating or conditioning kusula dhammas in the Punnakiriyavatthu: 10 bases of meritourious action . Judgemental attitude is only thinking so it's not you again. It rises and falls away instantly. So where is you ??? Anumodana to your attitude saying that it's a long way to go, because you know the truth. At least, you are brave and have the courage to face the truth. Frankly speaking, sometime I have dosa when I know that it is still a long way to go.. BUT sati comes when it reminds me that it is lobha, wanting to know the realities as fast as possible. This LOBHA or tanha just simply work very hard in their job.. Haa... Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again | Dear Shin, | | I still have a lot of dosa, mana, and upadana as well as other not | mentioned akusala characters. As the result, I have a long long way to go | due to my judgemental attitude. | | Anumodana, | Alex | 1724 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VII Dear friends Thank you very much for your compassionate comments. It is so heartening to see the gratitude for the Great Sage and his sons, (ie, nettippakarana atthakatacariya dhammapala, rerukane chandavimala ) sadhu 1725 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 5:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Oops! i asked "and what is the way you have in mind as to use 'chanda' ( as in 4 iddhipadas) ? " I can now see that you have already given a relevant explanation in your previous posting.. :7) Thanx again. protectID on 11/03/2000 09:48:55 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Robert, loads of punnakamma for the explanation/dhamma gift, thanx!! I am sure that I will receive the answers to other questions I asked , when you have enough time. I also like for explanations on , perfecting panna( panna parami ) --- > panna and what is the way you have in mind as to use 'chanda' ( as in 4 iddhipadas) ? Thanks again for your compassion! rgds Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/03/2000 07:15:01 AM cc: (bcc: Gayan Karunaratne/Technology Providers/lk) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan and group, I flew up to osaka yesterday - go to a conference tommorow- and am now in an internet lounge (paying through the nose) so will make a brief reply only. --- protectID wrote: > >> Dear Robert, > now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, > not tanha, > what you said was quite clear, > please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end > desire , > so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta > , viriya, > vimamsa) > ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for > spiritual development) > some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic > attainments , > another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( > sotapanna ) and to > be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha > warned) > one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to > any sort of a > realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) This is all thinking about dhamma. What is underlying the thinking? Is it panna or is it lobha? So very easy when we are thinking about nibbana and attainments and beibg sotappana to overlook the actual moments. Any attainments come only because there has been, over and over, uncountable times, life after life, the study of this moment with a citta rooted in amoha -panna. Even if the thinking is kusala it should be known that we cant control whether we wil have chanda or viriya or vimasa or citta as a dominant iddhipada. The conditions are far too complex for this to be arranged. Thinking that we should have chanda is likely to be conditioned by a subtle belief in a self that can do so. You didn:t arrange to be born in sri lanka, nor could you decide to be interested in Abhidhamma - these things happened because there was kusala chanda, for sure, but not because you tried to have kusala chanda. Do you see the difference? > > knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not > a sort of a > panna? > > (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) > > and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood > or suta buddhahood > what drives them? a sort of a desire? They have kusala chanda of the highest degree - but not by wanting kusala chanda. > > > Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what > I have in mind (to > get clarified from you) keep asking on these points. they are very difficult and I am just touching on some aspects. We should look at this type of question from many different angles. Jon and sarah and Amara and Kom and all will have comments too. It is something that I think is m\valuable. > > :o) > > yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex > discussions carried > on in this e community..but I thought that this is an > opportunity to know > whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a > disadvantageous ditthi > thanx in advance. Not elementary - very helpful. Pondering these questions can teach us much. Robert > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=pic08256.pcx 1726 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >From: "shinlin" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:44:21 +0700 > >Dear Alex, > The defilements or kilesas are not you. Ha.... Ha... So when there is >an >arising of your kusula thinking or view, then it is just a chance of my >anumodana to you, which is one way of accumulating or conditioning kusula >dhammas in the Punnakiriyavatthu: 10 bases of meritourious action . > Judgemental attitude is only thinking so it's not you again. It rises >and falls away instantly. So where is you ??? Nowhere. No me. Anatta. :-))) > Anumodana to your attitude saying that it's a long way to go, because >you know the truth. At least, you are brave and have the courage to face >the >truth. Frankly speaking, sometime I have dosa when I know that it is still >a >long way to go.. BUT sati comes when it reminds me that it is lobha, >wanting >to know the realities as fast as possible. This LOBHA or tanha just simply >work very hard in their job.. Haa... Yes, it's very nice to be reminded that lobha is much more difficult to see than dosa. Before joining this group, I did not give it even half a thought. Now, ... :-))) >Anumodana >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th Anumodana to you, Alex 1727 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, I too will respect the robe, regardless of the worthiness of the person wearing it. However, if the person is not worthy, then he will not get any support from me. Panna can tell the difference between a worthy and an unworthy monk. Part of the role of monks is to act as examples for lay persons. Monks who are unworthy are not doing their jobs as monks and therefore, having forfeited their role, forfeit the the right to receive respect from lay people. If lay people turn away from such monks and fail to support them, they can no longer remain monks since monks depend on support from the population for their survival. If more persons turn away from unworthy monks, it would act as a check on the monkhood and reduce the number of such persons in it. BUT, the catch is: most people don't have the panna to be able to tell which monks are worthy and which are unworthy, So, the quality of the monkhood is a reflection of the quality of the population: the more corrupt the monkhood, the more corrupt the lay population is as well. An example of this problem is the current ruckus over the Dhammikaya sect. They claim to be Theravada Buddhist and that they want to clean out the corruption in the monkhood. However, their chief monk, Dhammachayo, was arrested for embezzlement of fantastically large sums of temple money. And as I understand it, the more money one pays in, the more "salvation" or whatever, one is supposed to receive and the closer one is supposed to come to Arahatship, in their way of thinking. This is total avijja and corruption of the Tipitika. Our vet is a member of their sect (he is a very good vet, despite that) and when I last went to see him he tried to explain to me that their purpose was to clean up the monkhood (read: other monks, not theirs). He proceeded to show me one of their texts, in both Thai and English. And there in bold print it was written that all Buddha images that they produce should look like Dhammachayo, their head monk. And this group has many followers and a lot of money and influence. So much so, that the Ecclesiastical Council cannot stop them from spreading incorrect interpretations of dhamma. Corrupt monks <----> corrupt population; each is a reflection of the other. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > Good explanation. Alex. > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th 1728 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:36pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > I agree with you. When I voiced my opinion, some of my friends told me > indirectly to ... shut up! They warned me about creating verbal kamma. > :-))) Dear Alex, Then you could perhaps explain to them what verbal transgression of the 5 precepts really is, and that anything that is truthful and useful said with the intention to help and not to harm cannot break the sila! Amara 1729 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Betty, Thank you for your wisdom in this post. As I said before, I just knew Buddhism recently. Therefore, my association with monks are very limited. :-((( You are so correct in saying: >Corrupt monks <----> corrupt population; each is a reflection of the > >other. Anumodana, Alex Tran =========== 1730 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:36:45 -0000 > > > > I agree with you. When I voiced my opinion, some of my friends >told me > > indirectly to ... shut up! They warned me about creating verbal >kamma. > > :-))) > > >Dear Alex, > >Then you could perhaps explain to them what verbal transgression of >the 5 precepts really is, and that anything that is truthful and >useful said with the intention to help and not to harm cannot break >the sila! > >Amara Dear Amara, Good idea! Why didn't I think of that? :-))) Metta, Alex 1731 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 1:07am Subject: Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > 8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!! Dear Sarah and Kom, I've enjoyed your discussions very much but I have very little to add, except for this reminder from the Summary, Citta Chapter 13 (p.248) part IIa in the website: Paccaya is a reality that benefits and assists other realities to arise or maintain them according to the specific kinds of conditions. Phassa-cetasika, for example, is not a lobha-cetasika, while both phassa-cetasika and lobha-cetasika are paccaya beneficent to the arising of other realities such as citta, cetasika and rupa. Since the characteristics and functions of phassa-cetasika differ from those of lobha-cetasika, the phassa-cetasika would be a different paccaya from lobha-cetasika. Phassa-cetasika is condition by being an ahara-paccaya. Ahara is a reality that brings results but it is not so steadfast as to make things flourish like the main root of a tree. While the realities that are hetu are paccaya by becoming the causes, like the tap root. Trees cannot flourish with the tap roots alone. There must be soil and water as nutrients. But without this main root, the soil and water cannot make the tree develop fully. Trees with tap roots would flourish differently from plants without one in the same way. Other realities than the 6 cetasika that are hetu are paccaya by being other conditions and not hetu-paccaya. The Patthana Book, which is the seventh and last book in the Abhidammapitaka, manifests realities by their inter-conditioning: by being different paccaya. The first paccaya is hetu-paccaya, which shows the importance of realities that are hetu. At funerals when bhikkhu intone the abhidamma, they begin with "hetu-paccayo", which are lobha-hetu, dosa-hetu, moha-hetu, alobha-hetu, adosa-hetu and amoha-hetu, to remind us that the realities that are causes for future results as future lifetimes and beings, are the six cetasika, namely lobha-cetasika, dosa-cetasika, moha-cetasika, alobha-cetasika, adosa-cetasika and panna-cetasika. Truly, each kind of reality is of its own specific importance. The Buddha not only manifested one but many paccaya. Nor did he merely manifest arammana that is paccaya for citta to arise and experience it (the arammana) as the only "arammana paccaya" for the citta. But he manifested each and every paccaya in detail for the 24 major paccaya as well as their minor paccaya. Cakkhuppasada-rupa arises because of other paccaya than the hetu- paccaya. And cakkhuppasada is, in turn, a paccaya by being the reality that is eminent: the indriya-paccaya, or being paccaya by being a reality that is predominant in its duty and function. Cakkhuppasada is cakkhundriya, the rupa which is the principal in being paccaya for cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see visual objects through the eyes. Without cakkhuppasada, sotappasada, ghanappasada, jivhappasada and kayappasada, what would this body be like? Like a log that does not see, hear, smell, taste or know bodysense contact. Therefore, the 5 pasada-rupa are paccaya by being indriya-paccaya or eminent in their specific functions such as the cakkhuppasada-rupa being predominant in coming into contact with ruparammana thus causing cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see what appears through the eyes because other rupa cannot perform this function. The object appearing through the eyes could be clear or not depending on the state, the clarity of the cakkhuppasada-rupa, which does not depend on cetana or desire or intention of anyone but on the indriya-paccaya of seeing, namely the cakkhuppasada-rupa. All realities are paccaya for other realities to arise by being diverse kinds of paccaya. (…) (There are also other places where she talks about this.) > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the > > vultures, > > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again > > i quote > > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): > > > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its > > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have > > arisen > > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause > > the > > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these > > rupas have > > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as > > seventeen moments of citta.' > > > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on > > the > > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing > > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does > > not > > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' > Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be > purejata (pre-nascence) > sahajata (conascence) > paccajata (post-nascense) > > Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be: > atthi (presence-condition) > natthi (absence-condition) > vigata (disappearance [gone]) > avigata (non-disappearance [still there]) > > Just the combination of the jata and the > presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind- > boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the > seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the > cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc... I think this is because of the parallel and unequal duration of the rupa and the nama that experience them, so that the rupa, as fast as the speed of light is (since light is also rupa), is 17 times the duration of the nama. When they start off at the same time say in a vithi process, there has to be the two extra tadarambana to make the equation. When they start of at different moments, sometimes the vithi ends up incomplete and inoperative. And because of their unequal duration, and still are conditions for one another to arise, I think that under some circumstances rupas could become both present and future paccaya for nama, since, as Nina said, they last longer, so that future rupa, born this instant, would not have fallen awan when the co-nascent citta has, and becomes future paccaya for the subsequent several citta in the process as well. (This gets even more complicated with the sub moments of the duration of both realities as well as multiplied by the meeeting of the ayatana through each dvara) And then there are 24 major paccaya and I don't remember how much of the detailed ones, in zillions of possible combinations! > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning > > later > > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... > > Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways: > 1) cause of arising > 2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???) See the 'Summary' pages above in the Thai version, > 3) both cause of arising and support Khun Sujin has told Betty we would get to study the paccaya one day, but we're still on other things at the moment, and the paccaya so detailed and complex it might take some time. The main point is that while one may never know, unless one were the Buddha, what exacty causes and conditions this moment of seeing, one knows that it has arisen from at least this or that number of major and minor paccaya, and not because one made it happen or that some god did! All this complicated conglomerations are not the self, they arise from accumulated conditions. Still it's so interesting trying to figure it out, isn't it? I really look forward to reading more! Anumodana to you both, Amara 1732 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 1:28pm Subject: Patthana commentaries Dear group, For the Patthana we have Buddhaghosa's commentary (a.t.thakathaa), Ananda's subcommentary (muula.tiikaa), and Dhammapala's subcommentary (anu.tiikaa) on the mulatika. I know of no complete English translation of any of these important commentarial works and I'm wondering if anyone here knows of any. Although I haven't done a thorough check, the Visuddhimagga, XVII.66-100 appears to contain the same text found in the commentary (a.t.thakathaa) on the summary of conditions (paccayuddeso) at the beginning of the Patthana. I have also seen information from one or more of these works included in U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Part 1 and NVG's Conditions which I have only just started to read. I estimate that the combined number of pages of the commentary & the two subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. Of these, 121 pages cover from the beginning to the end of the analytical exposition of conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly done any translating for others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to have a go at these commentaries and share the work in progress with this group for comments and suggestions. With best wishes, Jim A. 1733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 2:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Jim I'm sure there are many of us on this list who would very much appreciate a translation of the commentaries and who would also be delighted to be your sounding board for parts in progress. Any support I can give I would be pleased to. Jonothan --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear group, > > For the Patthana we have Buddhaghosa's commentary > (a.t.thakathaa), Ananda's > subcommentary (muula.tiikaa), and Dhammapala's > subcommentary (anu.tiikaa) > on the mulatika. I know of no complete English > translation of any of these > important commentarial works and I'm wondering if > anyone here knows of any. > Although I haven't done a thorough check, the > Visuddhimagga, XVII.66-100 > appears to contain the same text found in the > commentary (a.t.thakathaa) on > the summary of conditions (paccayuddeso) at the > beginning of the Patthana. I > have also seen information from one or more of these > works included in U > Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Part 1 and > NVG's Conditions which I > have only just started to read. > > I estimate that the combined number of pages of the > commentary & the two > subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. > Of these, 121 pages > cover from the beginning to the end of the > analytical exposition of > conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly > done any translating for > others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to > have a go at these > commentaries and share the work in progress with > this group for comments and > suggestions. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor 1734 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries I second Jonothonas comments, Jim. Nina van gorkom will be very interested also. In Thai, acharn Sujin, acharn santi and others have many tapes going into much detail on the patthana. But those of us who know only English are at disadvantage here. Nina reads thai(and listens) and gets some of the details but she would still much appreciate Englsih translations. We have both said that it is a pity that bhikkhu Bodhi stopped his wonderful series of commentarial translations of the suttas. these were very complete and included the attakattha and tikas. (i.e. Brahmajala sutta, mahadinana sutta, mulapariyaya sutta and sammanaphala sutta). We are so lacking in commentaries in English. You know the Patthana holds a special place in the Tipitika. It is said to be the deepest of all the Buddhas teachings and consequently the commentaries say that it will be the first part to disappear. Any work that assists us to understand the Pattahana helps to delay that dark day. Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Jim > > I'm sure there are many of us on this list who would > very much appreciate a translation of the commentaries > and who would also be delighted to be your sounding > board for parts in progress. > > Any support I can give I would be pleased to. > > Jonothan > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear > group, > > > > For the Patthana we have Buddhaghosa's commentary > > (a.t.thakathaa), Ananda's > > subcommentary (muula.tiikaa), and Dhammapala's > > subcommentary (anu.tiikaa) > > on the mulatika. I know of no complete English > > translation of any of these > > important commentarial works and I'm wondering if > > anyone here knows of any. > > Although I haven't done a thorough check, the > > Visuddhimagga, XVII.66-100 > > appears to contain the same text found in the > > commentary (a.t.thakathaa) on > > the summary of conditions (paccayuddeso) at the > > beginning of the Patthana. I > > have also seen information from one or more of these > > works included in U > > Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Part 1 and > > NVG's Conditions which I > > have only just started to read. > > > > I estimate that the combined number of pages of the > > commentary & the two > > subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. > > Of these, 121 pages > > cover from the beginning to the end of the > > analytical exposition of > > conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly > > done any translating for > > others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to > > have a go at these > > commentaries and share the work in progress with > > this group for comments and > > suggestions. > > > > With best wishes, > > Jim A. > > > > > > 1735 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 8:54pm Subject: Re: Patthana commentaries > I estimate that the combined number of pages of the commentary & the two > subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. Of these, 121 pages > cover from the beginning to the end of the analytical exposition of > conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly done any translating for > others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to have a go at these > commentaries and share the work in progress with this group for comments and > suggestions. Dear Jim, Anumodana in your great kusala endeavor and looking forward to reading it very much, Amara 1736 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 9:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Thank-you Jonothan, Robert, and Amara for showing your interest and support. I've already started to study the first part: the four introductory verses of Buddhaghosa's commentary with the two tikas (altogether about 3 pages to translate). The first word of the first verse is 'devaatidevo' (the deva of devas -- ie the Buddha) on which the two tikas have much to say but some passages are going to be difficult to translate. All I can do is just to give it a try with no guarantee of success. I'm thinking of intermingling the translation with the Pali text which will double the size of each part. I would also like to add some footnotes. I think it is going to take me some time to do just the first part. If this part succeeds then I will move on to the second part which defines the word 'Patthana' and the layout of the book. I appreciate the interest shown for the Abhidhamma by a surprising number of you in this group. I have been enjoying the lively discussions and even the humour! There is much for me to learn here from you all. I also must say I have a high regard for the work done by Khun Sujin & Nina van Gorkom and will make every effort to carefully consider what they have to say from my reading. With best wishes, Jim A. Robert wrote: >I second Jonothonas comments, Jim. Nina van gorkom will be very >interested also. In Thai, acharn Sujin, acharn santi and others >have many tapes going into much detail on the patthana. But >those of us who know only English are at disadvantage here. Nina >reads thai(and listens) and gets some of the details but she >would still much appreciate Englsih translations. We have both >said that it is a pity that bhikkhu Bodhi stopped his wonderful >series of commentarial translations of the suttas. these were >very complete and included the attakattha and tikas. (i.e. >Brahmajala sutta, mahadinana sutta, mulapariyaya sutta and >sammanaphala sutta). We are so lacking in commentaries in >English. >You know the Patthana holds a special place in the Tipitika. It >is said to be the deepest of all the Buddhas teachings and >consequently the commentaries say that it will be the first part >to disappear. Any work that assists us to understand the >Pattahana helps to delay that dark day. >Robert 1737 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Dear Jim, yes please intermingle the pali with the English. Sentence by sentence preferably. Then we can all learn a little pali as we follow your translation. And it will help nina give feedback on the translation also (she is busy but I have a feeling she will have a few comments). And the more footnotes the better I think. I have a very few copies of some print books by Sujin and Nina which I can send to you (although you have probably already downloaded them from the web)- let me know if you would like them, it is nice to read from a fully formatted book. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Thank-you Jonothan, Robert, and Amara for showing your > interest and support. > > I've already started to study the first part: the four > introductory verses > of Buddhaghosa's commentary with the two tikas (altogether > about 3 pages to > translate). The first word of the first verse is 'devaatidevo' > (the deva of > devas -- ie the Buddha) on which the two tikas have much to > say but some > passages are going to be difficult to translate. All I can do > is just to > give it a try with no guarantee of success. I'm thinking of > intermingling > the translation with the Pali text which will double the size > of each part. > I would also like to add some footnotes. I think it is going > to take me some > time to do just the first part. If this part succeeds then I > will move on to > the second part which defines the word 'Patthana' and the > layout of the > book. > > I appreciate the interest shown for the Abhidhamma by a > surprising > number of you in this group. I have been enjoying the lively > discussions and even the humour! There is much for me to learn > here from you > all. I also must say I have a high regard for the work done by > Khun Sujin & > Nina van Gorkom and will make every effort to carefully > consider what they > have to say from my reading. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > 1738 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 3:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Jim This is very exciting! But we must also be reaslistic and not expect to produce too much too soon. In Bangkok, they have a dedicatd group doing translation work, and progress is slow but steady. As we know, it requires considerable understanding as well as pali skills to get the right translation. So by all means take your time and do a complete job, one that will be worthy of publication when finished (and BTW, printing and publication can be arranged so be assured that your work will be made available to a wide audience). I endorse Robert's remarks on the way to proceed. Jonothan --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Thank-you Jonothan, Robert, and Amara for showing > your interest and support. > > I've already started to study the first part: the > four introductory verses > of Buddhaghosa's commentary with the two tikas > (altogether about 3 pages to > translate). The first word of the first verse is > 'devaatidevo' (the deva of > devas -- ie the Buddha) on which the two tikas have > much to say but some > passages are going to be difficult to translate. All > I can do is just to > give it a try with no guarantee of success. I'm > thinking of intermingling > the translation with the Pali text which will double > the size of each part. > I would also like to add some footnotes. I think it > is going to take me some > time to do just the first part. If this part > succeeds then I will move on to > the second part which defines the word 'Patthana' > and the layout of the > book. > > I appreciate the interest shown for the Abhidhamma > by a surprising > number of you in this group. I have been enjoying > the lively > discussions and even the humour! There is much for > me to learn here from you > all. I also must say I have a high regard for the > work done by Khun Sujin & > Nina van Gorkom and will make every effort to > carefully consider what they > have to say from my reading. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. 1739 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 5:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Jim, you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! >From: "Jim Anderson" > > >Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's a bit more >on >where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a wooded lot about >25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times a year to >stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk for about two >weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a hermit. we can also see we don't need to be a monk to live alone in the forest if that is what we prefer or find most beneficial for our studies and practice! For about a >20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a few Buddhist >teachers and groups at various locations. > >I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting I attended in >Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a monk on tape. >In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali >and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a member of the Pali >Text Society and started buying books directly from them for my collection >of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had most of the >available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian edition of the >Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on my own. I did >seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the University of >Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that never came about, >although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D student of his >for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from Yangon. When >I >heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized (he still had >the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him to teach me >Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was getting myself >into! >He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available to teach me >for >about another five years when he expected to be finished his studies. As it >turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge responsibility of >bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs here. I felt it >was just too much for me to handle financially and psychologically. After >it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 where I have >continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation until this >day. This is all v.interesting....yes, it might have turned out to be quite a burden to support the Burmese monk on your own... When I first turned up at the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't realised it was her personal address I had! btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! > >Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. >I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It >still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in >Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done >some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 >paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas 9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) I'm >sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a support for >studying >the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the discussions. I >will make every effort to share with you whatever I have learned that I >think might be helpful. > >With best wishes, >Jim A. Many thanks Jim, you're very welcome here! Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! I look forward to hearing more from you, Sarah > > > 1740 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 5:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Mike & Gayan, yes, I'm also finding many helpful home truths in these, but Mike pls elaborate on yr comments on sapitika tanha which obviously struck a note....pls give some examples. Sarah >From: "m. nease" >Dear Gayan, > >Another good one--I particularly noted the term, >'sapitika tanha'--one to watch out for. This one can >send you in circles like a dog, chasing it's own tail, >for, well--aeons? I know... > >Thanks again, > >Mike >--- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo > > vangceti. > > > > 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in > > the noble order. This > > is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. > > But it is not allowed for a monk to give to > > laypeople other than the gifts > > of the dhamma( dhammadanas). > > Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the > > commodities received as > > alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with > > monks , they will more > > and more aims in return) > > But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the > > laypeple please by > > giving material gifts and worldly gifts is > > samvibhaga seelatha, but its > > miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) > > In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and > > entertain a liking and > > friendship with the monk, but the point is this type > > of particular dhammas > > can be associated with even a thief/criminal who > > helps them, does > > favourable things for them. > > This may appear to build confidence in the lay > > followers' minds but its is > > a type of tanha associated with piti. > > (sapitika tanha). > > As always the idea here is to distinguish between > > the kusala ad the > > akusala. > > No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is > > detected. > > > > 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata > > vangceti > > > > The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up > > with the unsuitable, > > unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay > > followers is unsuitable. > > Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( > > the 32, ie..rajakata, > > corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga > > viharata is a quality that > > should be developed by monks/yogins. > > > > the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything > > for, ignoring the lay > > followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not > > gifting with dhamma > > etc. > > So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the > > asamsaggaviharata. > > This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the > > yogins who have gone > > forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in > > observing the holylife. > > So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. > > > > > > contd. > > > > > > > > 1742 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 11:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome Jim ! Dear Jim and friends, I must say that when I've read that Robert has invited Jim to share with us his profound knowledge I felt myself very happy. I'm for more than a year one of the 'big luckers' (sp?) of the Dhamma-L and I have a folder with many of the Jim's posts. As a recent student of the Abhidhamma I know that I can not understand fully some of your posts but it seems to me that Jim will be a great stimulus to all of you, more advanced in Dhamma. Also, it will be nice to listen your discussions and a great learning opportunity to me. As I' ve understood that Jim's intention in translating some important Dhamma material is a lovable and important matter, I would like to colaborate with this project. Only let me know how .... A BIG welcome to you Jim 'Pali' Anderson :-) ... and once more, Thank you, Robert ! Metta Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! > Dear Jim, > > you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply > promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks > for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very > different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! > > >From: "Jim Anderson" > > > > > >Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's a bit more > >on > >where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a wooded lot about > >25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times a year to > >stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk for about two > >weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a hermit. > > we can also see we don't need to be a monk to live alone in the forest if > that is what we prefer or find most beneficial for our studies and practice! > > For about a > >20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a few Buddhist > >teachers and groups at various locations. > > > >I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting I attended in > >Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a monk on tape. > >In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali > >and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a member of the Pali > >Text Society and started buying books directly from them for my collection > >of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had most of the > >available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian edition of the > >Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on my own. I did > >seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the University of > >Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that never came about, > >although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D student of his > >for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from Yangon. When > >I > >heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized (he still had > >the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him to teach me > >Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was getting myself > >into! > >He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available to teach me > >for > >about another five years when he expected to be finished his studies. As it > >turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge responsibility of > >bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs here. I felt it > >was just too much for me to handle financially and psychologically. After > >it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 where I have > >continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation until this > >day. > > This is all v.interesting....yes, it might have turned out to be quite a > burden to support the Burmese monk on your own... When I first turned up at > the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's > sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't > realised it was her personal address I had! > > btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and > meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What > kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? > Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! > > > >Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. > >I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It > >still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in > >Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done > >some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 > >paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. > > Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas > 9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) > > I'm > >sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a support for > >studying > >the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the discussions. I > >will make every effort to share with you whatever I have learned that I > >think might be helpful. > > > >With best wishes, > >Jim A. > > Many thanks Jim, you're very welcome here! > > Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the > Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. > joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll > be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if > needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar > as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this > will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and > I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! > > I look forward to hearing more from you, > Sarah 1743 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 5:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex & Betty, >From: "A T" >Dear Betty, > > Thank you for your wisdom in this post. As I said before, I just knew >Buddhism recently. Therefore, my association with monks are very limited. >:-((( > > You are so correct in saying: > >Corrupt monks <----> corrupt population; each is a reflection of the > > >other. I also agree with Betty's wise observation above. Alex, it's hard for me to imagine that you have only recently studied Buddhism as you seem to have appreciated the important aspects (especially the anattaness of realities) very quickly. How did you become interested in Buddhism or were you brought up as a Buddhist as you mentioned you speak Vietnamese I think? Where is your contact with monks? Sarah btw the monk I first mentioned who was reported going to Karaoke for 'spiritual discussions' was not the same one as the one who dressed up as the general and got greater publicity. I'm also glad to report that when I met A.Cha in London at a temple for quite a long visit (also back in the 70s), he definitely wasn't smoking there, so I tend to agree with Mike & Robert that it was probably a 'cultural' habit common to the Thai monks in the forest.... 1744 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 1:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Jim, By now, most of our "big shots" :-))) people in the group already voiced their welcome, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome you, too. I'm looking forward to learn a lot from you. This group is really a Dhamma Study Group. What a very appropriate name! Anumodana, Alex Tran 1745 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 1:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike & Gayan, > > yes, I'm also finding many helpful home truths in > these, but Mike pls > elaborate on yr comments on sapitika tanha which > obviously struck a > note....pls give some examples. If I haven't misunderstood Gayan: > > a type of tanha associated with piti. > > (sapitika tanha). With some practice, it isn't difficult (at times, at least) to condition the arising of piti by means of samatha meditation. Naturally, being a pleasant state, lobha arises with regard to it, particularly if it is not understood or is misunderstood (e.g. as sammasamadhi of the eightfold path). By chasing one's tail, I meant the habitual desire for the re-arising of that state in meditation and the resultant prevention of the arising of real understanding. As you said recently, nobody's complaining about the lobha! Ain't it the truth... 1746 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 4:06am Subject: New article and newsletter Dear friends, Finally finished the translation of 'Kamma', now in the intermediate section of and a newsletter about our champion transcriber, at her 84th birthday celebration!(in Newsletter 8.) Enjoy! Amara 1747 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 6:57am Subject: On Kamma Dear Amara and friends, Thank you, Amara for the Dhamma gift. I would like to share with the group one more text on kamma - "Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching" whose author is one of the most important Thailand's Buddhist scholar, Venerable P. A. Payutto's http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/kamma.htm Metta, Leonardo > Dear friends, > > Finally finished the translation of 'Kamma', now in the intermediate > section of and a newsletter about our > champion transcriber, at her 84th birthday celebration!(in > Newsletter 8.) > > Enjoy! > > Amara > > > 1748 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 10:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Hi Robert and all, From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000 9:41 PM EST >Dear Jim, >yes please intermingle the pali with the English. Sentence by >sentence preferably. Then we can all learn a little pali as we >follow your translation. And it will help nina give feedback on >the translation also (she is busy but I have a feeling she will >have a few comments). And the more footnotes the better I think. >I have a very few copies of some print books by Sujin and Nina >which I can send to you (although you have probably already >downloaded them from the web)- let me know if you would like >them, it is nice to read from a fully formatted book. >Robert Thank-you for your goodwill gesture. I have downloaded two of the books, and a chapter from AIDL. I find the etexts quite okay, but if it's really no bother for you, then go ahead -- I won't mind having some hardcopies around. Address: 239 Forest Harbour Pkwy., RR 2, Waubaushene, ON L0K 2C0 Canada I'm glad that you like the idea of intermingling the translation with the Pali, and yes, I'm breaking up the text into small portions (typically, a sentence or two). I'm sure the group can offer some further suggestions on improving the page layout once I start submitting portions. It'll take some experimenting and feedback to come up with the right layout for a translation intermingled with three layers of commentaries plus the footnotes! If it is in the interest of the group, this could very easily become a group translation project as I'm sure many of you will have valuable comments and suggestions to offer that will help steer the translation in the right direction. I'm by no means an experienced Pali translator and so the translations that I will submit will likely be in a somewhat rough state which others with more talent could then help shape and refine into something more beautiful and clearer. Once a part is finished, it could then go up on a webpage (I have 5MB available) for downloads and continue to be open for revisions. All contributors will be duly acknowledged. I printed out the three pages of the Pali text today and started to translate (in my mind) what I thought was going to be a really difficult passage but it turned out to be not as bad as I first thought and it appears that any obscurities found in the text can be cleared up for the most part. Btw, the tikas have some interesting things to say about devas -- which I didn't know about before (coming soon!). With best wishes, Jim A. P.S. Thanks Leonardo and Alex for your welcomes. I will try to respond to your messages tomorrow. I'm another slow responder like Sarah. 1749 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 2:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Sarah and friends, >Alex, it's hard for me to imagine that you have only recently studied >Buddhism as you seem to have appreciated the important aspects (especially >the anattaness of realities) very quickly. As we all agree that there's no "I", therefore, it's kind of difficult to talk about myself. :-))) I was brought up in Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confuciusism (spelling?) are parts of our culture. I heard of the concept anicca, dukkha, and anatta since I was very young. Therefore, I guess, it's easier for me to understand what we are discussing about. >How did you become interested in >Buddhism or were you brought up as a Buddhist as you mentioned you speak >Vietnamese I think? I was brought up in the Mahayana Buddhist background. In fact, most Vietnamese have the Mahayana bacground. However, I was not very serious in practicing Buddhism. It's just something you were born into. Then, I got interested in meditation. I was exposed more to Taoism, and Hinduism. At one time, I seriously considered translating the Gita into Vietnamese. Finally, I got in touch with Theravada Buddhism through the help of a Vietnamese monk. From then on, I study only Theravada Buddhism. Now, I even teach a Sunday class for the young children at my temple. I just came back from that class today. :-))) It's really fun to teach them. I emphasized a lot of right and wrong views. Recently, I'm teaching them words from the Buddha, mostly from Dhammapada. My philosophy is to give them a seed, so that later on it may become one of the conditions for them to study Dhamma more. Do you have any idea how I can teach them the "Summary" by A. Sujin? I don't want to overwhelm them. At the same time, I have a lot to learn, too. >Where is your contact with monks? They are from the Vietnamese temples. Most of my monks studied in Thailand. One studied in India for awhile. My Abhidhamma teacher stayed in Thailand most of his life. His Thai is just as good as any Thai. He's the one who knows Ajaan Sujin. Locally, we have a temple very close to my home, another one about 25 miles from where I live, and the third one about 40 miles away. I go to the one close to me at least once a week. >Sarah Anumodanna, Alex Tran 1750 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:49am Subject: Re: On Kamma > I would like to share with the group one more text on kamma - "Good, Evil and > Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching" whose author is one of the most important > Thailand's Buddhist scholar, Venerable P. A. Payutto's > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/kamma.htm Dear Leonardo, Thank you for your gift as well, will look it up right away! Perhaps you can compare the two and give us your opinion? Anumodana, Amara 1751 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 0:00pm Subject: Re: Patthana commentaries Dear Jim, I am a Pali illiterate myself but I have friends whom I regard as excellent at it who might be able to help, in any case we would certainly enjoy tracing your endeavors in this linguistic and kusala adventure through your work in progress. By the way please look for my private note off-list, Amara 1752 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 0:27pm Subject: Vancaka Dear Gayan, I am sorry I know nothing of Singhalese at all (does it resemble Pali in any way? is some of it derived from the Pali?), and don't think anyone else on the list does, to help you with your translations, but you are doing so well by yourself. I hope you find the time to finish the list, I have been following it with interest and look forward to the rest of it. Anumodana in your kusala in sharing with us, Amara 1753 From: protectID Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 1:32pm Subject: Re: colour/sound Dear Alex, Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a little while to consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it can be. As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely will remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and cetasikas arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience it as taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of how things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. As taught by Tan A. Sujin (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through the six dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as poramatha aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- vithi process. It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi processes, before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara-javana vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha aramana doesn't become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes "sharper": the cittas process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" mind. The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there. The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, we need to do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel something hard, we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa aggregate (shape, name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is instantaneous. This is true with what I observe about myself anyway. The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. Seeing makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. I hope this adds some value to the discussion. kom --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest. :-((( > > Alex > ========== > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) > > > >Dear Friends, > > > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or > >sharper. > >It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are > >many > >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of > > > >the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and > >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what > > > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > > > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This > >is > >because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say > >what > >we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as > >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going > >anywhere, > >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there > >is no > >person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being > >there. > >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object > >and make > >it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. > > > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you > >immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of > >voice > >recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, > >it is just > >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding > >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words > >that > >we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as > >self, > >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there > >is > >never such a person there regardless. > > > >kom 1754 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear kom, One of the clearest descriptions I have read. Excellent. One point to look at. You wrote: > > The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, > we need to > do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel > something hard, > we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa > aggregate (shape, > name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is > instantaneous. > This is true with what I observe about myself anyway In fact we do form concepts just as much from all the senses as from the the eye door. It may not be worked out as clearly as with the eyedoor but there is inevitably an idea of "something" there - except at the times when satipatthana is being developed. Meditators often focus on the body and feel the rupas there. They think that they are experiencing rupas directly without the idea of self. But even the idea of subatomic kalapas vibrating is a concept - a whole, a thing. It can delude us just as much as when we see a "person'. It can even delude us more if we think that we are having satipatthana when in fact we are still actually clinging to concept (albeit a very hidden type of concept) Robert. --- protectID wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a > little while to > consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it > can be. > As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely > will > remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and > cetasikas > arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience > it as > taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of > how > things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. > > As taught by Tan A. Sujin > (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- > 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through > the six > dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and > mano- > dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as > poramatha > aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, > it is also > experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the > mano-dvara-javana- > vithi process. > > It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi > (3) cittas start > experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier > cittas > experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas > at this > point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not > rise, it does not > fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never > exist. > > According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi > processes, > before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of > (1), and (2) > processes already taken place repeatedly. By this > description, we can > deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of > cittas) to > condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must > take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and > mano-dvara-javana > vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the > citta to > start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a > concept. > > The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), > experiencing > the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may > just see an > unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and > then we may > attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of > taking > poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, > namable > concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on > to. > > Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha aramana > doesn't > become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and > falls away > virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes "sharper": the > cittas > process the aramana object so it become identifiable and > namable, and > hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in > "our" > mind. > > The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, > seeing > without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts > of people, > animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an > object that we > see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and > unchanging. It is > so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer > there. By > the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no > longer > there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no > longer there. > > The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, > we need to > do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel > something hard, > we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa > aggregate (shape, > name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is > instantaneous. > This is true with what I observe about myself anyway. > > The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. > Seeing > makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. > > I hope this adds some value to the discussion. > > kom > --- "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > This is very difficult for me to understand and to > digest. :-((( > > > > Alex > > ========== 1755 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana Dear Kom, Amara & friends, Before I start attempting to go into details raised in Kom's post, I'd like to thank Amara for posting the useful section from Summary (helpful discussion on the importance of hetu as no 1.) and I'd like to remind us all about why we study paccaya (conditions) as expounded in the Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I'm quoting here from U Narada's Guide to Patthana: 'In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed (sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta...' We study conditions to understand more about the nature of anatta of realities appearing at this moment..... Conditions are extremely complex and it's no wonder we struggle to understand them even a little. according to U Narada, although there are only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,323 patthana sections under them! No need to say more! hopefully we'll all be a LITTLE wiser after we've worked with jim on his translations of the commentaries! >From: Kom Tukovinit > >Dear Sarah, > > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > > This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata > > niss.) > > above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence > > (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not > > pure > > prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent > > mental > > aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning > > > > states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.' > > > > It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time. > >Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how >the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for >confusion are the followings: >1) When discussing pacaya, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and the >conditioned dhamma (paccayapanna dhamma) can be pinned down from both >time and type. For example, phassa arising now is an ahara pacaya for >the citta arising at the same time. >2) This doesn't seem to be true to the 4th classification: I can't >think of any pacaya dhamma than can be both sahajata (rupa nama being >pacaya to rupa nama) and purejata (rupa being pacaya to nama) at the >same time. >3) Dhammas that can be Vathupurejata pacaya to nama are the base >objects, but only the heartbase can be sahajata to the patisandhi >nama. However, the heartbase can't be both sahajata and Vathupurejata >pacaya to the same nama at the same time: it can be sahajata to >patisandhi namas, and then Vathupurejata for different sets of nama >arising after it. >4) What I understand from your conclusion is that this particular >condition MUST have multiple dhammas contributing as pacayas. >5) This is certainly different from the explanations of other pacayas >as the explanations follow rule 1) above. >6) I think the other classifications of nissaya (sahajata, >vathupurejata, vatharamanapurejata) have already covered the condition >explained in sahajata-vathupurejata missaka. >7) Possibly, this is the reason why other sources don't discuss these >4th classification. >8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!! > Just to repeat for others valiantly following this discussion, sahajata purejatamissaka paccaya (Mixed conascence-prenascence condition)....is again a combination of sahajata nissaya (conascence dependence) & vatthupurejata nissaya (base prenascence-dependence). U Narada says this condition is listed in the Classification chapter of the Investigation Chapter but not in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions.... this may explain a little of the confusion! I mentioned above that as base is inc., it is not pure shajata niss. and since cetasikas and citta are inc. (in paccaya) it is not pure vatthupurejata niss. Yr point 4. is correct- yes, multiple dhammas contributing as pacc. e.g. eyebase (alr arisen) & cetasikas as paccaya for cakkhu vinn. (seeing consc.) & other cetasikas...So yr point 1. re time & type is pinned down I think. You mention that this condition (or sub condition ) is alr. covered in yr point 6. above, but I think some of the sub-categories and mixed conditions (and there are several other mixed conditions,eg under atthi paccaya, there are 3 mixed conditions at the end of the other categories) are to help us understand the ways the conditions combine together to bring a paccayapanna dhamma (conditioned reality). Just as namas are sometimes considered as cittas and cetasikas and sometimes as 4 khandhas etc, so perhaps (some guess work going on here) conditions are considered in different ways to help us understand more about realities and anatta as discussed at the beginning. I don't think this area of mixed conditions is very important in itself (esp. when we understand so little about the main 24 categories) but it's a useful condition (!- which ones Kom?) to study more, consider more and check the understanding of realities at this moment. Pls help correct any mistakes I've made! > > > > > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the > > vultures, > > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again > > i quote > > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): > > > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its > > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have > > arisen > > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause > > the > > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these > > rupas have > > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as > > seventeen moments of citta.' > > > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on > > the > > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing > > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does > > not > > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' >Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be >purejata (pre-nascence) >sahajata (conascence) >paccajata (post-nascense) > >Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be: >atthi (presence-condition) >natthi (absence-condition) >vigata (disappearance [gone]) >avigata (non-disappearance [still there]) > an interesting example of these pairs working together at the same time! >Just the combination of the jata and the >presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind- >boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the >seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the > cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc... > helps to understand why the present reality has to be just this one and not any other one because of the intricacy of conditions at work.. > > > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning > > later > > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... > >Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways: >1) cause of arising >2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???) >3) both cause of arising and support > for once the English is ahead of the Thai! > Thanks Kom and do keep challenging me!! Sarah 1756 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 0:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert & Shin, I've read and considered the correspondence below and I'm not sure that I agree with your comments on Kom's and Betty's posts...! Firstly when we say that seeing sees visible object or we say seeing sees colour or we say seeing sees 3D, there can be understanding or no understanding or something hazy in between when we say it. For example, if we say seeing sees color, it's very easy for someone to have an idea of a flat board of colours in front of the eyes which are seen and then interpreted into what is actually seen or what we think is actually seen. So it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D with the wrong view of experiencing something other than that which is experienced already. Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any understanding. Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry. As Kom went on to say (below), the ideas of shape, form, object and anything else (yes colours, depth, whatever) are all pannatti. There have to be many, many moments of understanding of seeing (as a nama) and visible object/colour (as a rupa) to understand them clearly. it is not easy, but essential to understand this area. When we have the idea that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if there really is clear understanding of the realities through them or whether it just seems like that. Sarah p.s. Amara, many thanks for your helpful post from Summary on namarupapaparricheda nana- so much excellent detail. Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the discussion we were having about accumulations. I quote: '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the mano dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and rupa dhamma would appear as arammana.'.. p.p.s I've just noticed that Kom has posted again on this subject but I haven't read his latest thoughts....sorry Kom & friends, this was so slow! >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Dear Shin, >You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our >understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to >what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible >object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is only >at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference >between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there >must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the >specific charcteristics) of dhammas. >Robert >--- shinlin wrote: > Dear M.Betty, > > No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the > > mind door, the 3D > > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it > > is pannati > > already. > > with metta, > > Shin > > > 1757 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 4:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sarah, Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another concept of depth (no depth). I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other doors are easier? You said "When we > have the idea > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > there really is > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether > it just seems > like that." > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert & Shin, > > I've read and considered the correspondence below and I'm not > sure that I > agree with your comments on Kom's and Betty's posts...! > > Firstly when we say that seeing sees visible object or we say > seeing sees > colour or we say seeing sees 3D, there can be understanding or > no > understanding or something hazy in between when we say it. For > example, if > we say seeing sees color, it's very easy for someone to have > an idea of a > flat board of colours in front of the eyes which are seen and > then > interpreted into what is actually seen or what we think is > actually seen. So > it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D > with the wrong > view of experiencing something other than that which is > experienced already. > Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any > understanding. > Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry. As Kom went > on to say > (below), the ideas of shape, form, object and anything else > (yes colours, > depth, whatever) are all pannatti. There have to be many, many > moments of > understanding of seeing (as a nama) and visible object/colour > (as a rupa) to > understand them clearly. > > it is not easy, but essential to understand this area. When we > have the idea > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > there really is > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether > it just seems > like that. > > > Sarah > > p.s. Amara, many thanks for your helpful post from Summary on > namarupapaparricheda nana- so much excellent detail. > Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the > discussion we were > having about accumulations. I quote: > > '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can > be no > knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly > realizes the > characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the > mano dvara would > arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and > rupa dhamma > would appear as arammana.'.. > > p.p.s I've just noticed that Kom has posted again on this > subject but I > haven't read his latest thoughts....sorry Kom & friends, this > was so slow! > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > >Dear Shin, > >You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our > >understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- > to > >what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible > >object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is > only > >at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference > >between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there > >must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana > (the > >specific charcteristics) of dhammas. > >Robert 1758 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana > Conditions are extremely complex and it's no wonder we struggle to > understand them even a little. according to U Narada, although there are > only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,323 patthana sections under > them! No need to say more! hopefully we'll all be a LITTLE wiser after we've > worked with jim on his translations of the commentaries! Dear Sarah, I was about to start translating the booklet Kom mentioned, when I came across Khun Sujin's 'Summary of Paccaya', a 70 odd page booklet that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So I'l translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it is finished. Amara 1759 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 8:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Kom, >Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a little while to >consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it can be. Anumodana for your time and effort. Thank you. >As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely will >remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and cetasikas >arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience it as >taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of how >things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. Yes, I understand. Samma ditthi is THE must before anything else. >As taught by Tan A. Sujin (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- >8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through the six >dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- >dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as poramatha >aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also >experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- >vithi process. So far, so good. I understand. >It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas >start >experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas >experiencing the poratha aramana. Yes, I see what you mean. >The aramana for the cittas at this >point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does >not >fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. I understand that this is the way we explain the world according to nama and rupa. However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree in front of my house does not exist. This is really the question I'm confused about. >According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi processes, >before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) >processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can >deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to >condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must >take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara-javana >vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to >start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. I got this. >The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing >the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an >unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may >attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking >poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable >concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. Yes. I see. However, the tree has its own life. It was a seed when I planted a few years ago. Afterwards, I could see that it gradually grows into a big tree. And it is a big tree right there, right now. Thank you, Kom. I understand what you are saying, but somehow, there exists a huge block preventing me from truly understanding the way it should be. It's wonderful if I can remove that block. I feel that once it's removed, my understanding of Abhidhamma and other important concepts such as "Emptiness" for example will be at a deeper level. >The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. I see that I still have a huge SELF carried around me. >kom Thank you, Kom. Anumodana, Alex Tran 1760 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 8:59pm Subject: Re: Clinging To Concept [was:colour/sound] Dear Robert, >Meditators often focus on the body and feel the rupas there. >They think that they are experiencing rupas directly without the >idea of self. But even the idea of subatomic kalapas vibrating >is a concept - a whole, a thing. It can delude us just as much >as when we see a "person'. It can even delude us more if we >think that we are having satipatthana when in fact we are still >actually clinging to concept (albeit a very hidden type of >concept) >Robert. How true! Clinging to concept is very difficult to eradicate. Alex 1761 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > >Dear sarah, >Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or >sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- >does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of >colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another >concept of depth (no depth). >I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other >doors are easier? You said "When we > > have the idea > > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > > there really is > > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether > > it just seems > > like that." > > Firstly, I did not mean to suggest that you or Shin had indicated that the other sense doors are easier. I know you don't have any idea of other doors being easier! what I meant was that it is a common idea that sounds are easier to understand or that bodily sensations are easier to know. What I was questioning was the rebuttal or objection made to Kom's and Betty's posts. I agree that the concept of depth and I would say also the concepts of colours come in after the vannayatana/rupayatana is experienced. That's why I like to think of it as just that which is seen or visible object but I really think it depends on the understanding when we say seeing sees visible object or colour. Both Kom and I stressed that any ideas of shape, form, object and anything else (colours, depth) are all pannatti. I may add more later, but I'm posting this quickly for a change as I don't want you to think you are being misquoted! Thanks for your comments, Robert. Sarah 1762 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana Dear Amara, Great idea!! "a 70 odd page > booklet > that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So > I'l > translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it > is > finished. " The way you say this it sounds like it is just a casual matter - the idea of translating a 70 page book makes me shiver. So much work! Kusala Chanda is (probably) dominant when you say this (just referring to the discusion I had with gayan), later viriya may be dominant during the translation (and sometimes vimamsa etc). Dear saran and kom, i have been trying to follow all your letters on paccaya but haven't got time right now to properly do so. It is still encouraging to see you doing all this. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Conditions are extremely complex and it's no wonder we > struggle to > > understand them even a little. according to U Narada, > although there > are > > only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,323 patthana > sections > under > > them! No need to say more! hopefully we'll all be a LITTLE > wiser > after we've > > worked with jim on his translations of the commentaries! > > > Dear Sarah, > > I was about to start translating the booklet Kom mentioned, > when I > came across Khun Sujin's 'Summary of Paccaya', a 70 odd page > booklet > that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So > I'l > translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it > is > finished. > > Amara > > 1763 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sarah, thanks for the comments. I didn't say too much in my earlier post as I wanted to be clear on your points. Now that I am I will add a little. I liked very much your important reminder that: > it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D > with the wrong > view of experiencing something other than that which is > experienced already. > Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any > understanding. > Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry" Yes i think some might imagine that if understanding develops visible object suddenly changes into a blurry mass of psychedelic colors (or anyway something unusual or special). And i certainly agree with all your other points. Just one note:I was actually only referring to shins last letter to betty not any of her earlier letters to Kom.(I should have deleted the earlier sections when I replied.) i had read Koms letter earlier and thought it was great. could you go into more detail about your refernce to accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > >Dear sarah, > >Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or > >sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different > colours- > >does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes > of > >colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another > >concept of depth (no depth). > >I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the > other > >doors are easier? You said "When we > > > have the idea > > > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > > > there really is > > > clear understanding of the realities through them or > whether > > > it just seems > > > like that." > > > > > Firstly, I did not mean to suggest that you or Shin had > indicated that the > other sense doors are easier. I know you don't have any idea > of other doors > being easier! > > what I meant was that it is a common idea that sounds are > easier to > understand or that bodily sensations are easier to know. > > What I was questioning was the rebuttal or objection made to > Kom's and > Betty's posts. I agree that the concept of depth and I would > say also the > concepts of colours come in after the vannayatana/rupayatana > is experienced. > That's why I like to think of it as just that which is seen or > visible > object but I really think it depends on the understanding when > we say seeing > sees visible object or colour. Both Kom and I stressed that > any ideas of > shape, form, object and anything else (colours, depth) are all > pannatti. > > I may add more later, but I'm posting this quickly for a > change as I don't > want you to think you are being misquoted! Thanks for your > comments, Robert. > > Sarah > > > 1764 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > >Nothing much to do for now in Osaka (choice of a karaoke, movie >or noisy bar later tonight) so I will benefit the local economy >by paying their steep internet charges. >I was suprised to hear that a famous monk, Achaan cha used to >smoke. It is not specifically banned in the Vinaya, thus >technically one can get around it, but definitely goes against >the spirit, for the reasons Amara so ably explained. I read once >that his teacher Acharn Mun was also a smoker so I guess it was >part of the scence in the old days. You dont see many monks >smoking now. As I mentioned, I didn't see him smoling in the temple in London..! >On the question of laypeople smoking. I think leave this up to >conditions. It is not breaking any of the 5precepts - it is >simply an unheathy habit. It wont hinder one studying >abhidhamma. Sometimes it even helps people concentrate - much as >having a coke or coffee can at times. For some of us it is very >easy to drop such bad habits, for others very hard. I think we >should not put much pressure on smokers, as other things are >more important. Yes, don't we all have unhealthy habits? My mother smokes but she exercises a lot by walking and gardening every day and never eats junk foods.... I liked this reminder about other things being more impoortant because I do nag her about the smoking sometimes... >Going broader now, and looking at lifestyles. Some cannot even >keep the 5 precepts. there was a monk in the Buddhas time who >couldnt cope with the severity of living a monks life so he went >back to being a layman. Took to drink in a major way and in no >long time was an alcoholic. He remained so until the very day he >died - his last breath smelled of alcohol, it is said. when the >monks asked the Buddha where he was reborn - expecting to be >told in hell or as an animal- they were shocked when the Buddha >said he was now in the deva realm and had attained sotapanna at >the time of his death. The Buddha expalined that he had great >confidence in Dhamma, still listened to Dhamma whenever he >could, and had accumulated the conditions for deep wisdom. This >is an unusual case but it shows us the great power of Dhamma. Would you or Gayan give me a reference to this story of Sarakani the Sakyan sometime. It is very interesting. This is a good example of sila not being a strong foundation first before wisdom develops. Again we see different accumulations. My father died as an alcoholic and lost everything - his status, his wealth, his family. But he never told a lie (as far as I know) or stole, for example. He was scrupulously honest and considered a lot but was an example of someone who hated to be 'preached' at! > >One of the people I admire most in Thailand (apart from the >obvious ones) is a pig farmer. He is a student of Khun Thanit. >As I mentioned on another post Khun Thanit really hammers home >the teachings on sila. It is quite usual for one of his talks to >give a detail or two about the terrors of the hell realms and >how breaking sila is one way to get there. This mans livelihood >is involved in growing pigs and butchering them - a very severe >break in sila. However he cannot easily give up his business. It >is not so easy to change profession in Thailand if you are a >normal working man. But he is interested in Abhidhamma and >convinced by the teachings. This is kusala of a very high level. >The akusala of killing will bring its results sooner or later >but so too the kusala of listening and considering will bring >its profound results. he knows this and continues to listen - >many in his position would rather not hear about such matters >and so lose the chance to accumulate any wisdom. >Robert > Yes, better to listen with our foibles and addictions than not! Some good points, thanks Robert. Sarah 1765 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >Dear Sarah, > >If I haven't misunderstood Gayan: > > > > a type of tanha associated with piti. > > > (sapitika tanha). > >With some practice, it isn't difficult (at times, at >least) to condition the arising of piti by means of >samatha meditation. Naturally, being a pleasant >state, lobha arises with regard to it, particularly if >it is not understood or is misunderstood (e.g. as >sammasamadhi of the eightfold path). By chasing one's >tail, I meant the habitual desire for the re-arising >of that state in meditation and the resultant >prevention of the arising of real understanding. As >you said recently, nobody's complaining about the >lobha! Ain't it the truth... > No, I don't think you've misunderstood Gayan and this is a good example. It may be piti (kusala) or it may be lobha (akusala) be experienced but in either case lobha arises with regard to it. If it is piti in samatha practice, one can be so attached to it that it becomes easy to follow the wrong path.... and as you say the prevention of the arising of real understanding... Thanks also for your reminder in another post about being aware of dosa as object rather than a story of monks and respect.... Sarah 1766 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Clinging To Concept [was:colour/sound] That is why the middle path is truly so difficult. Even if we do manage to understand it correctly it still takes so very, very long to fully penetrate. Patience in this matter is a basis for other kusala. Anyway it is not impossible - countless beings have developed it correctly. Every little bit of understanding is a drop in the pool of wisdom. We can be very happy when we start to realise how hard this path is - because that is the truth. Much better than the happiness that comes from thinking nibbana can be quickly got- because that is false. Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >Meditators often focus on the body and feel the rupas there. > >They think that they are experiencing rupas directly without > the > >idea of self. But even the idea of subatomic kalapas > vibrating > >is a concept - a whole, a thing. It can delude us just as > much > >as when we see a "person'. It can even delude us more if we > >think that we are having satipatthana when in fact we are > still > >actually clinging to concept (albeit a very hidden type of > >concept) > >Robert. > > How true! Clinging to concept is very difficult to > eradicate. > > Alex > > 1767 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Robert, sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been pretty busy here in between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the week when i get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of the order or what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround and sometimes the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly they are not coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT score! Bedtime. S. > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) >Robert > > 1768 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound dear alex, Wasn't Kom's answer great! I will but in and try to help with your questions (I hope Kom will add too). --- . > > Yes, I understand. Samma ditthi is THE must before > anything else. You have picked up so many vital points in such a short time Alex. > > I understand that this is the way we explain the world > according to nama > and rupa. > > However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree > in front of my > house does not exist. This is really the question I'm > confused about. Rupas do exist - for an infintely short moment and then they fall away. However, while the conditions keep arising new rupas keep replacing the old ones. These new ones are conditioned by similar conditions thus they may look almost the same. Hence you look at the tree and you can't see any change (although if you look after a long time you would)- the rapidity with which it is all happening makes it seem permanent. Nina wrote an excellent book (aren't all her books?) about rupas - I think it may be on www.zolag Your questions are very important. They are the same questions I used to be perplexed about (not that I see it all so well now - but I know the theory and find it very true). I think they are the same questions the Buddha and the arahants must have asked themsleves over milions of lives. If we never consider these difficult problems we will never get anywhere. We have to be confused and uncertain in the beginning; that's why it is called beginning. And beginning lasts a long time in this adventure. 1769 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear sarah, you addeda ps in the color letter "Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the discussion we were having about accumulations. I quote: '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the mano dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and rupa dhamma would appear as arammana.'.." --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been > pretty busy here in > between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the > week when i > get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of > the order or > what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround > and sometimes > the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly > they are not > coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT > score! Bedtime. > S. > > > > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to > >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) > >Robert > > > > > > 1770 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Kom, This is the clearest elucidation (for this beginner) I've seen of this process to date. I'll be reading this over many times, as well as saving it to refer others to. Thanks VERY much. mn --- protectID wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took > me a little while to > consider how technical a response could be, and how > useful it can be. > As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process > most likely will > remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the > citta and cetasikas > arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can > experience it as > taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our > understandings of how > things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in > anatta. > > As taught by Tan A. Sujin > (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- > 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects > through the six > dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi > (1), and mano- > dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is > experienced as poramatha > aramana by the cittas in the > panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also > experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the > mano-dvara-javana- > vithi process. > > It is only some vithis later that the > mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start > experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by > the earlier cittas > experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for > the cittas at this > point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it > does not rise, it does not > fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will > never exist. > > According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta > vithi processes, > before a process (3) can arise, there must be > "thousands" of (1), and (2) > processes already taken place repeatedly. By this > description, we can > deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 > moments of cittas) to > condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. > It must > take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and > mano-dvara-javana > vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, > for the citta to > start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects > into a concept. > > The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana > vithi (3), experiencing > the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning > we may just see an > unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar > shape, and then we may > attach a name to the shape. At this point, the > process of taking > poramatha object all the way to a memorable, > identifiable, namable > concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana > to hold on to. > > Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha > aramana doesn't > become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it > rises and falls away > virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes > "sharper": the cittas > process the aramana object so it become identifiable > and namable, and > hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively > "clearer" in "our" > mind. > > The other points that I was attempting to add before > is that, seeing > without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the > concepts of people, > animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears > that an object that we > see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: > constant and unchanging. It is > so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no > longer there. By > the time we see a shape, the object that we actually > saw is no longer > there. By the time we remember the name, the object > is no longer there. > > The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we > can't see, we need to > do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just > feel something hard, > we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the > rupa aggregate (shape, > name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization > is instantaneous. > This is true with what I observe about myself > anyway. > > The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and > self. Seeing > makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. > > I hope this adds some value to the discussion. > > kom > --- "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > This is very difficult for me to understand and > to digest. :-((( > > > > Alex > > ========== > > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) > > > > > >Dear Friends, > > > > > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't > become clearer or > > >sharper. > > >It is just that before we make "things" out of > what we see, there are > > >many > > >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make > shape and form > out of > > > > > >the visible object (from successive moments of > nama knowing and > > >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and > form, as well as > what > > > > > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > > > > > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems > most important? This > > >is > > >because it is most difficult to > intellectualize/understand why we say > > >what > > >we take as shape and form and things aren't > really there. As long as > > >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are > all there, not going > > >anywhere, > > >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). > Why can't we say there > > >is no > > >person sitting in front of us: largely because we > see the person being > > >there. > > >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, > taking sense object > > >and make > > >it into a person requires more efforts to think > about the person. > > > > > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you > hear a voice, do you > > >immediately think there is a person there? > Couldn't it be some kind of > > >voice > > >recording??? Is it actually really a person > voice? In true realities, > > >it is just > > >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In > our understanding > > >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking > perhaps some words > > >that > > >we can understand. Without additional sense > objects that we take as > > >self, > > >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, > where in reallity there > > >is > > >never such a person there regardless. > > > > > >kom > > > 1771 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 05:44:05 -0800 (PST) > >dear alex, Dear Robert, >Wasn't Kom's answer great! Yes, it was excellent. I intend to print it out to keep it in my file. >I will but in and try to help with >your questions (I hope Kom will add too). Thank you, Robert. It sure will help me to understand the whole thing better. > > Yes, I understand. Samma ditthi is THE must before > > anything else. > >You have picked up so many vital points in such a short time >Alex. Thank you. Like what you said before, it must be the accumulations of conditions since it's uncontrollable. > > I understand that this is the way we explain the world > > according to nama > > and rupa. > > > > However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree > > in front of my > > house does not exist. This is really the question I'm > > confused about. > >Rupas do exist - for an infintely short moment and then they >fall away. However, while the conditions keep arising new rupas >keep replacing the old ones. These new ones are conditioned by >similar conditions thus they may look almost the same. Hence you >look at the tree and you can't see any change (although if you >look after a long time you would)- the rapidity with which it is >all happening makes it seem permanent. That's it. I knew it, but it somehow manages to escape me from remembering it sometimes. Obviously, it has not penetrate me totally yet. What you wrote reminded me of the old movie "The Time Machine". If I remember it correctly, the director indicated how the time machine was travelling by showing the audience how fast a tree changing itself according to seasons: full of green leaves in a second, then, blooming with flowers in another , the leaves turned red, and fell off quickly. >Nina wrote an excellent >book (aren't all her books?) about rupas - I think it may be on >www.zolag All of her books are excellent. Besides, A. Sujin, I'm very impressed with her, you, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, Kom, Mike, Leornardo, Jim, ... All of you are my teachers. Thank you. >Your questions are very important. They are the same questions I >used to be perplexed about (not that I see it all so well now - >but I know the theory and find it very true). I think they are >the same questions the Buddha and the arahants must have asked >themsleves over milions of lives. If we never consider these >difficult problems we will never get anywhere. We have to be >confused and uncertain in the beginning; that's why it is called >beginning. And beginning lasts a long time in this adventure. I need Patience, even when I'm full of lobha. :-))) Thank you. Anumodana, Alex Tran 1772 From: protectID=Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 0:06am Subject: Re: colour/sound Dear Kom, Robert and friends, I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we mean they are changing constantly. Anicca. Thank you, friends. Anumodana, Alex Tran --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > >The aramana for the cittas at this > >point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does > >not > >fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. > > I understand that this is the way we explain the world according to nama > and rupa. > > However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree in front of my > house does not exist. This is really the question I'm confused about. 1773 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 1:25pm Subject: Re: colour/sound > I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything > is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we > mean they are changing constantly. Anicca. Dear Alex, Yes, that is why the tilakkhana start with anicca. Dukkha is more subtle, anything that arises and falls away is in fact dukkha. Anatta is the selflessness, the 'unreal'. I would like to have a try at explaining the unreal to our dear Alex, (taking a little time out from my 70 odd pp. translation- not so scary after a 550pp book, Robert, maybe the practice is helping!) starting from the very beginning (which is the only way I know how! So please bear with me,): We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six senses now. Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV watcher these days, told me that one of the better character actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be studied at all times. While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. I don't know if this helps, Alex, now I'll go back to the (72 er, minus 4 pp.) booklet! Hope you find something useful all the same, Amara 1774 From: protectID Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 3:13pm Subject: Ch VIII 18. piyavadita patirupataya catukammata vangceti kusala piyavadita - when communicating with others it should be done in a pleasant , unharmful way. akusala catukammata - talking to please others in order to get favours, get the liking towards oneself. Some go to the extent of insulting, degrading oneself to keep the others on the higher position, so to please them. This can cheat as piyavadita. 19. mitabhanata patirupataya asammodana seelata vangceti kusala mitabhanata - talking only as needed, with great care. Most probably this results in less and less talk. akusala asammodana seelata - hating others, not having the tendency to develop metta. this akusala may cheat as mitabhanata. 20. sammodana seelata patirupataya maya satheyyangca vangceti kusala sammodana seelata - communicating pleasently with others with metta. akusala maya - hiding own defilements and bad qualities akusala satheyya - showing off that one has the good qualities that he doesnt have. One who has the intention to hide own faults talks about people who have that fault condemning them.So the listeners think that this 'guy' doesnt have such faults. One who likes to say that he has such and such (non-existant) good qualities, praises those qualities and advices others to have such good qualities, so the listners may assume that this 'guy' must have such good qualities. this maya and satheyya can cheat in the disguise of sammodana seelata. contd. 1775 From: protectID Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 3:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah dear amara and sarah, :o) amara--> Thanks for the comments. (Yes, sinhala has much in common with pali) but with the pali phrases , i think that it is better to use the numbered list that jim posted for cross reference. I am sorry cos i cant type the correct Pali 'spellings' . sarah---> i can type you the section of sarakani sutta tomorrow ,before that i will wait and see whether robert would post it. 1776 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VIII Ouch. --- protectID wrote: > > > > > > 18. piyavadita patirupataya catukammata vangceti > > kusala piyavadita - when communicating with others > it should be done in a > pleasant , unharmful way. > > akusala catukammata - talking to please others in > order to get favours, get the > liking towards oneself. Some go to the extent of > insulting, degrading oneself to > keep the others on the higher position, so to > please them. > > This can cheat as piyavadita. > > > 19. mitabhanata patirupataya asammodana seelata > vangceti > > kusala mitabhanata - talking only as needed, with > great care. Most probably this > results in less and less talk. > > akusala asammodana seelata - hating others, not > having the tendency to develop > metta. > > this akusala may cheat as mitabhanata. > > 20. sammodana seelata patirupataya maya satheyyangca > vangceti > > kusala sammodana seelata - communicating pleasently > with others with metta. > > akusala maya - hiding own defilements and bad > qualities > > akusala satheyya - showing off that one has the good > qualities that he doesnt > have. > > One who has the intention to hide own faults talks > about people who have that > fault condemning them.So the listeners think that > this 'guy' doesnt have such > faults. > One who likes to say that he has such and such > (non-existant) good qualities, > praises those qualities and advices others to have > such good qualities, so the > listners may assume that this 'guy' must have such > good qualities. > > this maya and satheyya can cheat in the disguise of > sammodana seelata. > > > > contd. > > > 1777 From: protectID Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound dear alex you said----> " I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we mean they are changing constantly. Anicca." in meghiya sutta , buddha says----> "For a monk, Meghiya, who thinks on impermanence, the thought of not-self endures; thinking on there being no self, he wins to the state wherein the conceit I am " has been uprooted, to the cool, even in this life." :o) Thanx 1778 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to > > >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) > > >Robert > > > >Dear sarah, >you addeda ps in the color letter >"Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the >discussion we were >having about accumulations. I quote: > >'..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can >be no >knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly >realizes the >characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the mano >dvara would >arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and >rupa dhamma >would appear as arammana.'.." This was an extract from Summary which Amara kindly brought to our attention. The discussion I thought of I've just dug out of the archives (seemed like yesterday but actually it was a lot of messages ago!): Sarah From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 2:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Sarah, It adds exactly what needed to be added. Thank you. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott protectID wrote: > Dear Robert and Sukin > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick protectID > > >It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala >citta > >so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is >not > >so important to be sure about the difference between all the > >cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification >of > >dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , > >including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as > >sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this will >be > >a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some >extent > >but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish nama > >from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not > >necessarily clear insight into the difference between these > >conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this - >I > >am far from sure about this intricate matter. > >Robert > >You may have noticed, Monday seems to be my main posting day! >I have a little more energy than at the end of the week, but the only >way I can post anything is by ignoring all the incoming mail for the day >which is very hard! > >On this point above, I meant to say something before...I think >it really depends on different accumulations. Just as K.Sujin discusses >in 'Realities & Concepts' and quotes from the Abhid. Vibhavani, people are >different in terms of which realities they are slow in understanding... (I >know we're all slow at understanding all realities, but still there are >some differences...altho' there are many 'cheating' traps as we all >know by now!). Anyway, the point is that there aren't any rules about >which realities are known in which order and which realities will >appear to highly developed panna either... One person may have highly >developed >metta and recognise the characteristic easily and another may do the >same for karuna. (I just thought of this example as K.Sujin mentioned she >was >in the former group once...) > >As we know, the Buddha taught about the realities in so many >different ways and groupings because we all have different interests and >accumulations and need to hear the truth accordingly. Some need to hear >more >about conditions, some need to hear more about rupas etc... > >Not sure this adds anything to your helpful message which is >probably why I held back before! > >Sarah > 1779 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 7:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Yes, very useful. No can plan which rupas or namas vipassana will insight - all too complex and no self anywayRobert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > > > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to > > > >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) > > > >Robert > > > > > >Dear sarah, > >you addeda ps in the color letter > >"Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the > >discussion we were > >having about accumulations. I quote: > > > >'..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there > can > >be no > >knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly > >realizes the > >characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the > mano > >dvara would > >arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and > >rupa dhamma > >would appear as arammana.'.." > > This was an extract from Summary which Amara kindly brought to > our > attention. The discussion I thought of I've just dug out of > the archives > (seemed like yesterday but actually it was a lot of messages > ago!): > Sarah > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 2:42pm > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda > and cetana; > between manasikara and sati > > Dear Sarah, > It adds exactly what needed to be added. Thank you. > Robert > --- Sarah Procter Abbott protectID wrote: > Dear > Robert and Sukin > > > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick protectID > > > > >It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala > >citta > > >so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is > >not > > >so important to be sure about the difference between all > the > > >cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification > >of > > >dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , > > >including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as > > >sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this > will > >be > > >a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some > >extent > > >but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish > nama > > >from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not > > >necessarily clear insight into the difference between these > > >conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this > - > >I > > >am far from sure about this intricate matter. > > >Robert > > > >You may have noticed, Monday seems to be my main posting day! > >I have a little more energy than at the end of the week, but > the only > >way I can post anything is by ignoring all the incoming mail > for the day > >which is very hard! > > > >On this point above, I meant to say something before...I > think > >it really depends on different accumulations. Just as K.Sujin > discusses > >in 'Realities & Concepts' and quotes from the Abhid. > Vibhavani, people are > >different in terms of which realities they are slow in > understanding... (I > >know we're all slow at understanding all realities, but still > there are > >some differences...altho' there are many 'cheating' traps as > we all > >know by now!). Anyway, the point is that there aren't any > rules about > >which realities are known in which order and which realities > will > >appear to highly developed panna either... One person may > have highly > >developed > >metta and recognise the characteristic easily and another may > do the > >same for karuna. (I just thought of this example as K.Sujin > mentioned she > >was > >in the former group once...) > > > >As we know, the Buddha taught about the realities in so many > >different ways and groupings because we all have different > interests and > >accumulations and need to hear the truth accordingly. Some > need to hear > >more > >about conditions, some need to hear more about rupas etc... > > > >Not sure this adds anything to your helpful message which is > >probably why I held back before! > > > >Sarah > > > > > > 1780 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah >From: protectID >sarah---> >i can type you the section of sarakani sutta tomorrow ,before that i will >wait >and see whether robert would post it. > > Gayan, maybe not necessary if you or someone can give me a reference I can check up myself or maybe Mike can put in one of his hotlinks which are so useful for everyone to refer to... no hurry! Anumodana Sarah 1781 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana Dear Amara, Many thanks, I look forward to reading both in due course...take your time! Like Robert says, you make it sound so simple....! Anumodana Sarah >From: "amara chay" >Dear Sarah, > >I was about to start translating the booklet Kom mentioned, when I >came across Khun Sujin's 'Summary of Paccaya', a 70 odd page booklet >that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So I'l >translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it is >finished. > >Amara > 1782 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Dear Jim , >Waubaushene, ON L0K 2C0 >Canada Jonothan will be in Ottawa next week for a week (law conference) if you happen to be passing through... > >I'm glad that you like the idea of intermingling the translation with the >Pali, and yes, I'm breaking up the text into small portions (typically, a >sentence or two). I'm sure the group can offer some further suggestions on >improving the page layout once I start submitting portions. It'll take some >experimenting and feedback to come up with the right layout for a >translation intermingled with three layers of commentaries plus the >footnotes! There are ots of experts in this group on layout and computer technology (but I'm most certainly not one!) > >If it is in the interest of the group, this could very easily become a >group >translation project as I'm sure many of you will have valuable comments and >suggestions to offer that will help steer the translation in the right >direction. I'm by no means an experienced Pali translator and so the >translations that I will submit will likely be in a somewhat rough state >which others with more talent could then help shape and refine into >something more beautiful and clearer. Once a part is finished, it could >then >go up on a webpage (I have 5MB available) for downloads and continue to be >open for revisions. All contributors will be duly acknowledged. I'm sure it will also lead to some excellent discussions along the way...lots of abhidhamma and conditions in daily life! maybe we'll write a sub sub-commentary after we've finished translating the others - I mean if there was a Tika written in the 19thC., why not one in the 20thC.? (mostly joking!) Anyway, I'm sure you'll receive lots of support and help here. > >I printed out the three pages of the Pali text today and started to >translate (in my mind) what I thought was going to be a really difficult >passage but it turned out to be not as bad as I first thought and it >appears >that any obscurities found in the text can be cleared up for the most part. >Btw, the tikas have some interesting things to say about devas -- which I >didn't know about before (coming soon!). sounds exciting... a real adventure! just go at your own pace in whtever way suits you! Sarah 1783 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 8:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Amara, Yes, what you wonderful post really helps. Thank you for your compassion in clarifying the idea of anicca. And thank you for helping me relating anicca back to paramatthadhamma. A few years ago, I heard a very humorous real life story about a conversation between 2 Vietnamese friends. One was a Christian and the other was a Buddhist. The former wanted to teach the latter that everything was created by God. Pointing a pine tree in front of them, he claimed that the tree was really a beautiful work of art. The Buddhist one looked at it and said that there was no tree, it was empty! Without realy understanding, we're confused. Consequently, we confuse others when saying something without conviction. I appreciate this list very much because of the knowledge of its members. Thank you very much for creating this list, Sarah. Thank you, Amara, for your beautiful Website. Thank you, Robert, Jonothan, Kom, and everyone for guiding me on the Path. Suddenly, I realize that it's the season of Thanksgiving in the U.S.A. :-))) It's good to give thanks in this list because no turkeys suffer when we give thanks. :-))) Anumodana, Alex ===================== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 05:25:29 -0000 > > > > I think that I can answer my question now. When we say >everything > > is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we > > mean they are changing constantly. Anicca. > > >Dear Alex, > >Yes, that is why the tilakkhana start with anicca. Dukkha is more >subtle, anything that arises and falls away is in fact dukkha. >Anatta is the selflessness, the 'unreal'. > >I would like to have a try at explaining the unreal to our dear >Alex, (taking a little time out from my 70 odd pp. translation- not >so scary after a 550pp book, Robert, maybe the practice is helping!) >starting from the very beginning (which is the only way I know how! >So please bear with me,): > >We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, >think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at >all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience >from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? >Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes >when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into >contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear >related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, >through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through >the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses >combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is >your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that >sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, >they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to >you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that >sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact >for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses >including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And >there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as >aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from >our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six >senses now. > >Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with >characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to >you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV >watcher these days, told me that one of the better character >actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one >of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't >disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These >extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we >see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: >we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible >objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! >They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from >elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from >them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, >whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you >type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be >studied at all times. > >While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the >tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not >think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear >through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin >to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced >through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This >knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the >understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of >selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate >uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until >in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding >the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. > >I don't know if this helps, Alex, now I'll go back to the (72 er, >minus 4 pp.) booklet! Hope you find something useful all the same, > >Amara > > > 1784 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:31am Subject: background info Dear Alex, Thank you very much for the interesting bio. >From: "A T" >Dear Sarah and friends, > > As we all agree that there's no "I", therefore, it's kind of difficult >to >talk about myself. :-))) ..but we still need to talk in conventional language...even the Buddha did! > > I was brought up in Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism, Taoism, and >Confuciusism (spelling?) are parts of our culture. I heard of the concept >anicca, dukkha, and anatta since I was very young. Therefore, I guess, >it's >easier for me to understand what we are discussing about. yes, I think general familiarity with terms and culture do help...as we discussed with regard to N's letter....it's a little harder if someone isn't a 'Buddhist' even tho' the wrong views may be the same.. > > I was brought up in the Mahayana Buddhist background. In fact, most >Vietnamese have the Mahayana bacground. However, I was not very serious in >practicing Buddhism. It's just something you were born into. > > Then, I got interested in meditation. I was exposed more to Taoism, >and >Hinduism. At one time, I seriously considered translating the Gita into >Vietnamese. maybe you might translate Buddhism in DL by Nina VG instead! > > Finally, I got in touch with Theravada Buddhism through the help of a >Vietnamese monk. From then on, I study only Theravada Buddhism. Now, I >even teach a Sunday class for the young children at my temple. I just came >back from that class today. :-))) It's really fun to teach them. I >emphasized a lot of right and wrong views. Recently, I'm teaching them >words from the Buddha, mostly from Dhammapada. My philosophy is to give >them a seed, so that later on it may become one of the conditions for them >to study Dhamma more. excellent and very interesting... yes. sometimes planting the seed is the best help we can give. My only advice (which it sounds like you don't need) is to keep it very simple and full of daily life examples.... such as 'when you get mad with your brother, it's like your head is on fire...o.k. this is what the hell plane is like...' Or 'you want a strawberry and then are you happy? No, because you want another strawberry..! We're never satisfied!' I have very little experience of teaching dhamma to kids (altho' a lot of dhammic themes come up in my general teaching such as when a kid is in trouble at home or school). Khun sujin is the expert in this area... > > Do you have any idea how I can teach them the "Summary" by A. Sujin? I >don't want to overwhelm them. At the same time, I have a lot to learn, >too. > The more understanding you develop, the more you will help naturally with your own style.... > >Where is your contact with monks? > > They are from the Vietnamese temples. Most of my monks studied in >Thailand. One studied in India for awhile. My Abhidhamma teacher stayed >in >Thailand most of his life. His Thai is just as good as any Thai. He's the >one who knows Ajaan Sujin. Locally, we have a temple very close to my >home, >another one about 25 miles from where I live, and the third one about 40 >miles away. I go to the one close to me at least once a week. Is this in Texas? (just curious..) When I lived in S.Australia, there was a big Vietnamese community and I had a lot of Vietnamese students..... wonderful Vietnamese restaurants too! Lester who is silently on the list will agree with that. There were also some Viet Bud monks and temples but I didn't have so much contact. Thanks Alex. You've obviously considered very deeply and followed an interesting path. We're really fortunate you've found your way here (with Robert's and Amara's help)... Sarah 1785 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 9:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] background info Dear Sarah, It's interesting that you suggested translating Buddhism in Daily Life into Vietnamese. Last week, in a private email, I asked Amara how to obtain permission to translate A. Sujin's works. In fact, I already translated the first few pages of the Summary during the weekend. I do it really for myself because I'll understand it at a deeper level and to learn Pali words at the same time. It's going to be a slow process, unlike Amara's. She can be fast because of her expertise: her good understanding of Dhamma and her master command of English and Thai languages. Yes, you are right. All of those temples are in Texas. And they are Thevadin. There are many more if I include Mahayana. Besides, there are 2 Thai temples in my area: one is about 10 miles away from where I live and the other is about 40 miles away. It's very nice to see saffron robes when visiting the temples. Again, I must remind myself: Alex, there's no yellow robes... :-))) Anumodana, Alex >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] background info >Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:31:55 CST > >Dear Alex, > >Thank you very much for the interesting bio. > > >From: "A T" > > >Dear Sarah and friends, > > > > As we all agree that there's no "I", therefore, it's kind of >difficult > >to > >talk about myself. :-))) > >..but we still need to talk in conventional language...even the Buddha did! > > > > I was brought up in Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism, Taoism, and > >Confuciusism (spelling?) are parts of our culture. I heard of the >concept > >anicca, dukkha, and anatta since I was very young. Therefore, I guess, > >it's > >easier for me to understand what we are discussing about. > >yes, I think general familiarity with terms and culture do help...as we >discussed with regard to N's letter....it's a little harder if someone >isn't >a 'Buddhist' even tho' the wrong views may be the same.. > > > > > I was brought up in the Mahayana Buddhist background. In fact, most > >Vietnamese have the Mahayana bacground. However, I was not very serious >in > >practicing Buddhism. It's just something you were born into. > > > > Then, I got interested in meditation. I was exposed more to Taoism, > >and > >Hinduism. At one time, I seriously considered translating the Gita into > >Vietnamese. > >maybe you might translate Buddhism in DL by Nina VG instead! > > > > > Finally, I got in touch with Theravada Buddhism through the help of a > >Vietnamese monk. From then on, I study only Theravada Buddhism. Now, I > >even teach a Sunday class for the young children at my temple. I just >came > >back from that class today. :-))) It's really fun to teach them. I > >emphasized a lot of right and wrong views. Recently, I'm teaching them > >words from the Buddha, mostly from Dhammapada. My philosophy is to give > >them a seed, so that later on it may become one of the conditions for >them > >to study Dhamma more. > >excellent and very interesting... yes. sometimes planting the seed is the >best help we can give. > >My only advice (which it sounds like you don't need) is to keep it very >simple and full of daily life examples.... such as 'when you get mad with >your brother, it's like your head is on fire...o.k. this is what the hell >plane is like...' Or 'you want a strawberry and then are you happy? No, >because you want another strawberry..! We're never satisfied!' > >I have very little experience of teaching dhamma to kids (altho' a lot of >dhammic themes come up in my general teaching such as when a kid is in >trouble at home or school). Khun sujin is the expert in this area... > > > > Do you have any idea how I can teach them the "Summary" by A. Sujin? >I > >don't want to overwhelm them. At the same time, I have a lot to learn, > >too. > > >The more understanding you develop, the more you will help naturally with >your own style.... > > > >Where is your contact with monks? > > > > They are from the Vietnamese temples. Most of my monks studied in > >Thailand. One studied in India for awhile. My Abhidhamma teacher stayed > >in > >Thailand most of his life. His Thai is just as good as any Thai. He's >the > >one who knows Ajaan Sujin. Locally, we have a temple very close to my > >home, > >another one about 25 miles from where I live, and the third one about 40 > >miles away. I go to the one close to me at least once a week. > >Is this in Texas? (just curious..) > >When I lived in S.Australia, there was a big Vietnamese community and I had >a lot of Vietnamese students..... wonderful Vietnamese restaurants too! >Lester who is silently on the list will agree with that. There were also >some Viet Bud monks and temples but I didn't have so much contact. > >Thanks Alex. You've obviously considered very deeply and followed an >interesting path. We're really fortunate you've found your way here (with >Robert's and Amara's help)... > >Sarah 1786 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear All, --- protectID wrote: > dear alex > > you said----> > " I think that I can answer my question now. When > we say everything > is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the > rupas. Instead we > mean they are changing constantly. Anicca." > > in meghiya sutta , buddha says----> > > "For a monk, Meghiya, who thinks on impermanence, > the thought of not-self > endures; thinking on there being no self, he wins to > the state wherein the > conceit I am " has been uprooted, to the cool, even > in this life." > > > :o) > > > Thanx Thanks, Gayan and Alex. My question is probably very elementary, and I'm afraid it may have already been addressed recently. Anyway, here it is: In Gayan's wonderful example above and in many other places in the suttas, the Buddha encourages listeners to think in such-and-such a way, to 'train yourself' in such-and-such a way, etc. Since there is no 'one' to think or to train 'oneself', I assume that in these passages the Buddha is teaching according to his listeners' abilities to understand. So here's my question (finally): If a thought or concept is not a dhamma, is not real, does not arise or subside, can it still be called kusala or akusala? In other words, if a THOUGHT of, say, non-harming arises and drives out a THOUGHT of harming, even with the attendant deluded THOUGHT that oneself is causing the arising of the relatively more wholesome thought, is that thought really more kusala than the preceding thought? Even though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more kusala than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' or 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the Buddha's intention when instructing his listeners to think or to train themselves in such-and-such a way? Thanks in advance, Mike p.s. I'm 'way behind in my correspondence and have several messages unanswered in my 'inbox'. Thanks, all, for your patience! 1787 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 10:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > maybe Mike can put in one of his hotlinks Unfortunately, the Sarakanisutta doesn't seem to be on-line, anyplace that I can find, anyway. If I can find the time today, I'll try transcribing some of it from PTS (SN 55.3.4). Somehow, this idea doesn't surprise me much. If the 'accumulations' are present, I would think that understanding would arise regardless of the other, not-so-wholesome accumulations. Look at Anugulimala! Isn't this what the simile of the lotus is about? The lotus is just a lotus, whether it blossoms in the mud, or in the water, or in the air. And understanding is just understanding, right? Whether it arises in a sinner or a saint--isn't all that just sankharupadana? Thanks in advance, mn 1788 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 10:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear All, > > --- the Buddha encourages listeners to think > in such-and-such a way, to 'train yourself' in > such-and-such a way, etc. Since there is no 'one' to > think or to train 'oneself', I assume that in these > passages the Buddha is teaching according to his > listeners' abilities to understand. So here's my > question (finally): If a thought or concept is not a > dhamma, is not real, does not arise or subside, can it > still be called kusala or akusala? In other words, if > a THOUGHT of, say, non-harming arises and drives out a > THOUGHT of harming, even with the attendant deluded > THOUGHT that oneself is causing the arising of the > relatively more wholesome thought, is that thought > really more kusala than the preceding thought? Two main points, I think, to understand here. 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration meditation) can be very effectively done, even to the extent of the eight jhana by one who holds very strong convictions about self. This type of meditation may even lead to more fixed views about self (see brahmajala sutta). Now the actual view itself is akusala but the moments with true calm are kusala. 2. One can have right view, know with deep understanding that there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One may still use the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one knows that these are simply designations, terms that are useful ways of communicating but that do not refer to actual realities. Thus one can still train "oneself", but understand that it is only by conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one will not be perturbed if the kusala does not arise. Samattha and vipassana can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka -vipassaka, dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, the development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much easier. The far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is developed one can reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas and rupas that arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry with the new ones? But these ones were not the ones that conditioned the sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that ear-sense and hearing consciousness have likewise long since passed...". this is just a very rough example of the type of reflection conditioned by the development of vipassana. This level of understanding allows metta to replace the anger. Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for the true development of vipassana there must be good understanding of the characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often discuss, one will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is better and better understood, by developing satipatthana, one is less fooled by it also when developing metta. Even > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more kusala > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' or > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the Buddha's > intention when instructing his listeners to think or > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > The thinking process is composed of namas and some of these also condition rupa. What is not real is the concept that may be the object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, tables, cars, pretty woman .....)The javanna moments are always rooted in either kusala (with amoha(wisdom) or without) or akusala. Thus we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. When we consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the thoughts are to some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, detachment and adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of course be thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or attachment.) Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a crucial factor before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the direct understanding develops this supports more understanding at the thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise thinking, direct understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, wisethinking.... A very gradual upward spiral, cira kala bhavana (long, long time development). Even after vipassana nanas are reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is needed to further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga XVIII24 says "after defining mentality -materialty thus according to its true nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then in oreder to abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more thoroghly, to surmount confusion about beings and to establish his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely 'this is mere menatlity-materiality,there is no being, no person' is confirmed by a number of suttas. .." Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief explanation only. Robert 1789 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 11:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound --- "Correction: my last post should have said visuddhimagga xviii25 (not 24.) Robert 1790 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 11:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah Mike Well said, sir! > Somehow, this idea doesn't surprise me much. If the > 'accumulations' are present, I would think that > understanding would arise regardless of the other, > not-so-wholesome accumulations. Look at > Anugulimala! > Isn't this what the simile of the lotus is about? > The > lotus is just a lotus, whether it blossoms in the > mud, > or in the water, or in the air. And understanding > is > just understanding, right? Whether it arises in a > sinner or a saint--isn't all that just > sankharupadana? Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to its development, than does physical violence. And if I remember correctly, Angulimala renounced violence immediately on hearing the dhamma, so the 2 did not run together concurrently (as it were). Not having heard this particular story before, if you'd asked me I'd have said it was impossible. Which just goes to show that we don't understand as much about the nature of awareness and panna and their development as perhpas we think we do. Jonothan 1791 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 11:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah dear Jon, "Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to > carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically > opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to > its development, than does physical violence" Do you know the story of the Kings minister who had been on a major drunken binge with some of his concubines for three or 4 days (I forget his name - gayan probably knows). He saw the buddha and all the alcohol was immediately vaporised, he listened and became, I believe, an anagami there and then. As mike so ably said "if the accumulations are present..." Yes, we can see a part of this present life; but that is just an moment in samsara vata. There are other stories that show the danger of drinking. One man had the accumulations to become arahant but took to alcohol, lost his wealth and never even got to hear the Buddha in that life. (The Buddha pointed him out to ananda) Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > Well said, sir! > > > Somehow, this idea doesn't surprise me much. If the > > 'accumulations' are present, I would think that > > understanding would arise regardless of the other, > > not-so-wholesome accumulations. Look at > > Anugulimala! > > Isn't this what the simile of the lotus is about? > > The > > lotus is just a lotus, whether it blossoms in the > > mud, > > or in the water, or in the air. And understanding > > is > > just understanding, right? Whether it arises in a > > sinner or a saint--isn't all that just > > sankharupadana? > > Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to > carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically > opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to > its development, than does physical violence. And if > I remember correctly, Angulimala renounced violence > immediately on hearing the dhamma, so the 2 did not > run together concurrently (as it were). > > Not having heard this particular story before, if > you'd asked me I'd have said it was impossible. Which > just goes to show that we don't understand as much > about the nature of awareness and panna and their > development as perhpas we think we do. > > Jonothan > > > 1793 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 0:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Robert, This is excellent, thanks-- --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief > explanation > only. Will do--this requires more mulling over, which I'll do as soon as possible, on my own time (I'm at work...!) Thanks again, mn 1794 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 8:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Yes, that's exactly what I heard: once we truly know anicca, we know anatta and dukkha. In fact, we need to know one out of the three, then, the other two will automatically fall into places. That's why it's wonderful in this list to emphasize so much on anatta. Gayan, you are very knowledgeable in Dhamma at such a young age. You must have a lot of good accumulation to be born in Dhamma land and understand the value of Dhamma so well. I have another good Sri Lankan friend who's teaching me Dhamma as well. She just published a book of the life of the Buddha, entitled "The Light of the Ten Thousandfold World System". Everyone praises that work. You can have a look at the following website to see her work: http://www.lifeofbuddha.com/ Anumodana, Alex Tran ========================== >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:43:19 +0600 > > > > >dear alex > >you said----> >" I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything >is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we >mean they are changing constantly. Anicca." > > >in meghiya sutta , buddha says----> > >"For a monk, Meghiya, who thinks on impermanence, the thought of not-self >endures; thinking on there being no self, he wins to the state wherein the >conceit I am " has been uprooted, to the cool, even in this life." > > >:o) > > >Thanx > > 1795 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Sawaad dee khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Usually the citta is so fast that when there are > conditions, they > arise immediately, there is no stopping them in time > or supplanting > them with anything else. Right, I do realize that, though I thank you for the reminder. My error here was in mistaking thoughts for cittas--an old habit with a certain tenacity of its own...What I should have said (and understood), was, if (thanks to present 'accumulations') a more kusala thought arises to 'supplant' a less kusala one...but I've asked this question in a reply to a different post earlier this morning (I think), so I won't repeat it now... > But right understanding is > also a cetasika > that accompanies the citta and arises as quickly- > when there are > conditions for it to also. Right understanding can > be of several > levels, as Robert explained so well, the > intellectual level is very > important especially as conditions for the > experiencing level. Right! > But > at the experiencing level it needs not be followed > by long trains of > analysis. Someday... > For example on the theoretic level > visible objects arise > and fall away, what is seen through the eyes are > light and color, > shapes and forms are later recognized, seeing occurs > when the inner > and outer ayatanas come into contact, etc. But what > we are seeing > now does not need to be described, its > characteristics as they > appear to right understanding that is studying it is > accumulated for > further right understanding to occur and accumulate > in continuation, > and as long as there is the study of realities that > appear as > distinct from those through other dvara and from one > reality to the > other even through the same dvara (seeing is > different from light > and color), knowledge of these characteristics will > also grow, > gradually, little by little. Got it. > When the knowledge is strong enough and the > conditions are right, it > can eradicate dosa completely (at the anagami level) > but in the > meantime when the conditions are right, again, the > growing knowledge > that the dosa is arising, as Alex once said, I > think, can also > condition less dosa to arise. Right! > While before one > might be tempted to > show your dosa and wish the other person bad things, > one might see > the harm dosa is doing to oneself and bringing no > good to anyone > else. Or one might, at the experiencing level, > experience it as > such, an uncomfortable and harmful state of the > citta that has > arisen and fallen away, impermanent like anything > else, and > different from other moments of citta such as lobha > or seeing or > thinking. This realization automatically, without > any thinking > about it all day, adds to your knowledge of things > as they really > are, since that is the duty of right understanding: > to accumulate > more right understanding as they arise. Understood! --Conceptually, of course... > As you see it is a very complex matter, but the true > nature of > realities as they arise and are experienced with > right understanding > will help clarify the theories as well. In other > words all dhamma > studies help and support and clarify one another, so > long as one > studies the Buddha's words as much as one can > without prejudice or > preconception, I think. Yes, the spiral Robert mentioned...Thanks as always, Ma'am... mn 1796 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > No, I don't think you've misunderstood Gayan and > this is a good example. Thanks! This is HIGHLY (with lobha) gratifying... > It may be piti (kusala) or it may be lobha (akusala) > be experienced but in > either case lobha arises with regard to it. If it is > piti in samatha > practice, one can be so attached to it that it > becomes easy to follow the > wrong path.... and as you say the prevention of the > arising of real > understanding... > > Thanks also for your reminder in another post about > being aware of dosa as > object rather than a story of monks and respect.... ...and thank you again! I thought this was terribly wise myself, and have been waiting patiently for recognition. I'm sure this is extremely wholesome, ahem! Seriously, though, since I don't expect to be able to leave the world of thoughts and concepts (and reflections) for a long time, I do think it's important to remember to reflect on the 'right' aspects of them. I respond off-list because I don't think 'I have' the understanding to admonish anyone else (even though I've done it, haven't I, in moments blissfully free from appamada), and think they might not take it kindly (again!)--especially on a subject so intensely 'personal' to a devout Buddhist from a Buddhist country. And despite my facetiousness, I really do appreciate your comments and promise to try to keep them in perspective... Mike 1797 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Khun Kom, Anumodhana, Very good explanation. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound | Dear Alex, | | Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a little while to | consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it can be. | As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely will | remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and cetasikas | arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience it as | taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of how | things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. | | As taught by Tan A. Sujin (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- | 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through the six | dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- | dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as poramatha | aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also | experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- | vithi process. | | It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start | experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas | experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this | point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not | fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. | | According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi processes, | before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can | deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to | condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must | take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara-javana | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. | | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an | unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may | attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking | poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable | concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. | | Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha aramana doesn't | become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away | virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes "sharper": the cittas | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" | mind. | | The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing | without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, | animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we | see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is | so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By | the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer | there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there. | | The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, we need to | do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel something hard, | we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa aggregate (shape, | name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is instantaneous. | This is true with what I observe about myself anyway. | | The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. Seeing | makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. | | I hope this adds some value to the discussion. | | kom | --- "A T" wrote: | > Dear Kom, | > | > This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest. :-((( | > | > Alex | > ========== | > >From: Kom Tukovinit | > | > | > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) | > > | > >Dear Friends, | > > | > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or | > >sharper. | > >It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are | > >many | > >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form | out of | > > | > >the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and | > >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as | what | > > | > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). | > > | > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This | > >is | > >because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say | > >what | > >we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as | > >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going | > >anywhere, | > >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there | > >is no | > >person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being | > >there. | > >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object | > >and make | > >it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. | > > | > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you | > >immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of | > >voice | > >recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, | > >it is just | > >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding | > >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words | > >that | > >we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as | > >self, | > >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there | > >is | > >never such a person there regardless. | > > | > >kom | | | | | 1798 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Fantastic explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no 3D no anything. anumodhana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear sarah, | Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or | sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- | does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of | colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another | concept of depth (no depth). | I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other | doors are easier? You said "When we | > have the idea | > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if | > there really is | > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether | > it just seems | > like that." | > | --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear | Robert & Shin, | > | > I've read and considered the correspondence below and I'm not | > sure that I | > agree with your comments on Kom's and Betty's posts...! | > | > Firstly when we say that seeing sees visible object or we say | > seeing sees | > colour or we say seeing sees 3D, there can be understanding or | > no | > understanding or something hazy in between when we say it. For | > example, if | > we say seeing sees color, it's very easy for someone to have | > an idea of a | > flat board of colours in front of the eyes which are seen and | > then | > interpreted into what is actually seen or what we think is | > actually seen. So | > it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D | > with the wrong | > view of experiencing something other than that which is | > experienced already. | > Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any | > understanding. | > Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry. As Kom went | > on to say | > (below), the ideas of shape, form, object and anything else | > (yes colours, | > depth, whatever) are all pannatti. There have to be many, many | > moments of | > understanding of seeing (as a nama) and visible object/colour | > (as a rupa) to | > understand them clearly. | > | > it is not easy, but essential to understand this area. When we | > have the idea | > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if | > there really is | > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether | > it just seems | > like that. | > | > | > Sarah | > | > p.s. Amara, many thanks for your helpful post from Summary on | > namarupapaparricheda nana- so much excellent detail. | > Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the | > discussion we were | > having about accumulations. I quote: | > | > '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can | > be no | > knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly | > realizes the | > characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the | > mano dvara would | > arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and | > rupa dhamma | > would appear as arammana.'.. | > | > p.p.s I've just noticed that Kom has posted again on this | > subject but I | > haven't read his latest thoughts....sorry Kom & friends, this | > was so slow! | > | > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick | > | > >Dear Shin, | > >You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our | > >understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- | > to | > >what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible | > >object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is | > only | > >at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference | > >between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there | > >must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana | > (the | > >specific charcteristics) of dhammas. | > >Robert 1799 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Sarah, Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different in every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. with regards, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Robert, | | >From: Robert Kirkpatrick | > | >Dear sarah, | >Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or | >sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- | >does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of | >colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another | >concept of depth (no depth). | >I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other | >doors are easier? You said "When we | > > have the idea | > > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if | > > there really is | > > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether | > > it just seems | > > like that." | > > | | Firstly, I did not mean to suggest that you or Shin had indicated that the | other sense doors are easier. I know you don't have any idea of other doors | being easier! | | what I meant was that it is a common idea that sounds are easier to | understand or that bodily sensations are easier to know. | | What I was questioning was the rebuttal or objection made to Kom's and | Betty's posts. I agree that the concept of depth and I would say also the | concepts of colours come in after the vannayatana/rupayatana is experienced. | That's why I like to think of it as just that which is seen or visible | object but I really think it depends on the understanding when we say seeing | sees visible object or colour. Both Kom and I stressed that any ideas of | shape, form, object and anything else (colours, depth) are all pannatti. | | I may add more later, but I'm posting this quickly for a change as I don't | want you to think you are being misquoted! Thanks for your comments, Robert. | | Sarah | | 1800 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Sarah and Robert, Just yesterday, some people at the foundation was discussing accumulation. And we concluded that accumulation is equal to when at Kamma Paccaya, cetana in every citta and increases when at Asevana-paccaya, Javana-cittas. Just would like to share that how the Lord Buddha explained accumulation when we study the Paccayas and vitthi-cittas. with metta. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations | Dear Robert, | | sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been pretty busy here in | between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the week when i | get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of the order or | what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround and sometimes | the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly they are not | coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT score! Bedtime. | S. | | > | >could you go into more detail about your refernce to | >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) | >Robert | > | > | 1801 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:26am Subject: Sarakaani Dear sarah, The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS Translation series No.16 rgds. (See attached file: sarakaani.txt) Attachment 7k (application/octet-stream) sarakaani.txt 1802 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 1:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, My earlier comments were a little terse. One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are deluded. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > 3D no > anything. > anumodhana > 1803 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 0:40pm Subject: Ch IX 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather than on the deed. the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it. 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha. But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own mind. Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata) and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) contd. 1804 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch IX Dear gayan, very useful again. I prefer condem to insult; other possibilities are, criticize,denounce . --- protectID wrote: > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a > person who is under > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the > person] as a help for > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action > ] > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may > cheat as > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on > the person rather > than on the deed. > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a > kusala or an > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. > And it is not > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . > Papagarahata is used > (even) by the Buddha. > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by > others. And this > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the > former.They give in for > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby > abusing their own > mind. > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' > wrong doings and the > subsequent condemnation. > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - > paravajjanupassita. > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed > or the > doer.(papagarahata) > > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden > akusala dhammas. > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right > english word for the > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) > > > contd. > > > 1805 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, When we talk about rupa or color, it is purely only rupa whether good or bad, it is not related to the akusula ahetuka citta or kusula ahetuka citta at the panca-dvara-javana-vithi from accumulation. If we talk about ahetuka vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function that particular citta, nothing to do with the color. Therefore, the arising of the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action arises after many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the accumulation of kamma. This is how I understand it. Pls correct me if I am wrong. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | My earlier comments were a little terse. | One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea | that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However | this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or | akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). | It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing | everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking | at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very | ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating | between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So | in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu | vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala | vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely | Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or | mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects | rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears | as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. | No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter | out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple | conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such | speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of | control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- | the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are | deluded. | Robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic | explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no | > 3D no | > anything. | > anumodhana | > | | 1806 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear alex, Thanks for such compassionate comments, and thanks so much for giving me the info on this book,..i'm sure that it'll be great reading! I also get the 'hint' in the title of the book.... Buddha/dhamma is not just the 'light of asia' , but it really is the 'light of the tenthousandfold world systems' !!! :o) and also, planting the seed of saddha in young minds, and thats 'the' most admirable thing can be done by a human being.Buddha says that this is what he does.( refering to your dhamma classes for young people ) best rgds to you and your friend "A T" on 11/07/2000 06:38:17 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Yes, that's exactly what I heard: once we truly know anicca, we know anatta and dukkha. In fact, we need to know one out of the three, then, the other two will automatically fall into places. That's why it's wonderful in this list to emphasize so much on anatta. Gayan, you are very knowledgeable in Dhamma at such a young age. You must have a lot of good accumulation to be born in Dhamma land and understand the value of Dhamma so well. I have another good Sri Lankan friend who's teaching me Dhamma as well. She just published a book of the life of the Buddha, entitled "The Light of the Ten Thousandfold World System". Everyone praises that work. You can have a look at the following website to see her work: http://www.lifeofbuddha.com/ Anumodana, Alex Tran ========================== 1807 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always thought, as it looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything within its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked up and chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that happened after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not consider the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and there is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is felt, isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. Thanks in advance. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Shin, > My earlier comments were a little terse. > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are > deluded. > Robert > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > > 3D no > > anything. > > anumodhana > > > 1808 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, >From: "shinlin" > >Dear Sarah, > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different >in >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. >with regards, >Ms.Shin Lin Exactly. The rupas are different at each moment and this is why I've been saying I prefer to say seeing sees just what it sees at this moment....even when we talk about seeing visible object, colours, depth or anything else there are concepts coming in and we have to be careful we understand what someone means exactly before we say they are right or wrong. We can say seeing sees colour with right or wrong view, for example. There can be awareness now of seeing as seeing, not self, or of visible object/colour, a rupa, and then at that moment there is no doubt. The next moment there may be doubt and wondering again.... Sarah 1809 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Sarah, Are you saying that sometimes we are unable to tell how much the other understands dhamma through their writing, is it ?? Is this what you are trying to convey to us? It's very clear when you said that seeing sees just what it sees at this moment. It's just down to the point. Thankyou for your detail and clear explanation in words. with regards, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | | >From: "shinlin" | > | >Dear Sarah, | > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV | >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the | >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the | >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So | >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other | >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or | >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different | >in | >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. | >with regards, | >Ms.Shin Lin | | Exactly. The rupas are different at each moment and this is why I've been | saying I prefer to say seeing sees just what it sees at this moment....even | when we talk about seeing visible object, colours, depth or anything else | there are concepts coming in and we have to be careful we understand what | someone means exactly before we say they are right or wrong. We can say | seeing sees colour with right or wrong view, for example. | | There can be awareness now of seeing as seeing, not self, or of visible | object/colour, a rupa, and then at that moment there is no doubt. The next | moment there may be doubt and wondering again.... | | Sarah | | | 1810 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Khun Sukin, There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Robert, | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always thought, | as it | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything within | | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked up | and | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that | happened | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not | consider | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and there | | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is | felt, isn't it? | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. | Thanks in advance. | | Sukin. | | | Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: | | > Dear Shin, | > My earlier comments were a little terse. | > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea | > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However | > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or | > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). | > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing | > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking | > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very | > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating | > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So | > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu | > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala | > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely | > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or | > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects | > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears | > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. | > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter | > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple | > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such | > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of | > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- | > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are | > deluded. | > Robert | > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic | > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no | > > 3D no | > > anything. | > > anumodhana | > > | > 1811 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound You wrote "Therefore, the > arising of > the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta > at the > mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action > arises after > many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the > accumulation of > kamma. " I think this needs to be carefully thought about. The javana process is a different jati from the moment of vipaka when seeing arises. When we talk about accumulations we do not (or at least I don't) mean the moments of vipaka but rather the accumulation of the kilesa, especially as asava or anusaya. (as you note during the javana process accumualtions are being heaped up) Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications help us so much in untangling the tangle of life. Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring continually throughout samasara vatta. You wrote "If we talk > about ahetuka > vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function > that > particular citta, nothing to do with the color." The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my body but it is only namas and rupas. Kom mentioned recently the large number of paccaya that are necessary for a moment of seeing. I gave a couple of these conditions just to help us see that the sense objects (eg colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for vipaka cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also especially conditioned by past accumulations (as you indicated)The kilesa vatta is predominant here - not vipaka vatta. I hope this rather short reply helps. It is so absolutely amazing that anybody could decipher such a mess of conditions that are all meeting just for an instant before being replaced by new ones. We can see why the Buddha took 4 incalculably long periods of time and 100,000 aeons to be able to do so (and that is not counting the incalculably long period of time preceeding his prediction). Please ask again if this is unclear - I think this is a hard subject. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > When we talk about rupa or color, it is purely only rupa > whether good or > bad, it is not related to the akusula ahetuka citta or kusula > ahetuka citta > at the panca-dvara-javana-vithi from accumulation. If we talk > about ahetuka > vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function > that > particular citta, nothing to do with the color. Therefore, the > arising of > the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta > at the > mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action > arises after > many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the > accumulation of > kamma. This is how I understand it. Pls correct me if I am > wrong. > with metta, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1812 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 5:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sukin, --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had > always thought, > as it > looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received > everything within > > its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind > that picked up > and > chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a > process that > happened > after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I > did not > consider > the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing > itself. Yes. We have to understand that seeing itself, that extremely brief moment, is nama, not rupa. After the seeing the other cittas of the eyedoor process experience the same arammana (visible object) as the seeing consciousness. These include javana cittas at which time there is like or dislike or ignorance or detachment towards the object- and this is where the tendencies we have accumulated start to show. (And much more they show up in the following mind door processes) > Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an > object, and there > > is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the > outside object is > felt, isn't it? Sorry I wasn't sure of your meaning here. > Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind > everyone else > here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. > Thanks in advance. I think you should be known for your clear thinking; and between you, Alex, Mike and Leonardo we have some great examples of humility and keenness to learn. These details we have been mentioning about color and seeing can be helpful but it is really only as satipatthana develops that such matters can be properly comprehended. Anyone who has been following this discussion shouldn't have the idea that they must get it all "sorted" intellectually before they do anything else. I think the theory will gradually become clearer if there is more correct comprehension of this moment.(as I said yesterday the theory and practice support each other) It can even be counterproductive to try very hard to get the theory all perfect- it is the attitude and type of cittas while studying that should be considered. If it is being done with lobha or dosa (stress) then the right results won't come. Robert > > Sukin. > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Shin, > > My earlier comments were a little terse. > > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka > or > > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are > looking > > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one > very > > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > > between the two, or even between certain features of the > two. So > > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty > rubbish(or > > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different > objects > > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it > appears > > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will > filter > > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at > such > > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea > of > > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying > Abhidhamma- > > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we > are > > deluded. > > Robert > > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > > > 3D no > > > anything. > > > anumodhana > > > > > > 1813 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Thanks for your mail. I am lost here, it seems that what I am finding difficult to understand is so obvious to you. Your short note has not helped me, so if it is not too much trouble please send me a more detailed explanation. Thanks in advance. Sukin. shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun Sukin, > There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula > vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when > it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the > body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. > with metta, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sukinderpal Narula > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > | Dear Robert, > | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always > thought, > | as it > | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything > within > | > | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked > up > | and > | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that > | happened > | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not > | consider > | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. > | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and > there > | > | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is > | felt, isn't it? > | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else > | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. > | Thanks in advance. > | > | Sukin. > | > | > | Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > | > | > Dear Shin, > | > My earlier comments were a little terse. > | > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > | > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > | > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or > | > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > | > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > | > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking > | > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very > | > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > | > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So > | > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > | > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > | > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > | > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or > | > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects > | > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears > | > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > | > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter > | > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > | > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such > | > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of > | > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- > | > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are > | > deluded. > | > Robert > | > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > | > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > | > > 3D no > | > > anything. > | > > anumodhana > | > > > | > | > 1814 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:00pm Subject: Need a helping hand Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1815 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, By what I wrote below I meant that, say, for example; 1. My finger touching the object was numb. 2. My finger was burnt. 3. My flesh on the finger was exposed. 4. My finger was perfectly alright. Under all these conditions the object felt would not be the same because of the vedana on that part of the body. However I gave the example not to show that it was the same kind of process, but rather as a further illustration to what I thought you were trying to express. Thankyou for showing me the way. Anumodhana Sukin > > Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an > > object, and there > > > > is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the > > outside object is > > felt, isn't it? > > Sorry I wasn't sure of your meaning here. > 1816 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Khun Sukin, Vedana is a cetasika right ? And it is also one of the 7 cetasikas in the Sabba cittasadharana cetasika, meaning universal mental factors. One citta will have at least the sabba cittasadhara cetasikas. So Ahetuka kusula or akusula vipaka citta will have at least 7 cetasika which is why there is still vedana. It only depends on the types of vedana at each door way. So the vedana at the eye, ear, nose, tongue of the vipaka cittas are upekkha. I am only trying to say that even seeing, there is still vedana, but it would be hard to recognize it. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Thanks for your mail. I am lost here, it seems that what I am finding | difficult to understand is so obvious to you. Your short note has not | helped me, so if it is not too much trouble please send me a more | detailed explanation. | Thanks in advance. | | Sukin. | | shinlin wrote: | | > Dear Khun Sukin, | > There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula | > vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when | > it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the | > body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. | > with metta, | > Ms.Shin Lin | > Zebra Computer Company Limited | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Sukinderpal Narula | > | > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | Dear Robert, | > | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always | > thought, | > | as it | > | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything | > within | > | | > | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked | > up | > | and | > | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that | > | happened | > | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not | > | consider | > | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. | > | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and | > there | > | | > | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is | > | felt, isn't it? | > | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else | > | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. | > | Thanks in advance. | > | | > | Sukin. | > | | 1817 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if generalizing has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I or you do not develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try to speak my mind. Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators along with fortune- teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided to seek 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, knowing that condolences or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to face the unknown, the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about the future which he thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both look for a way out of confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons who would guide them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress is being made, the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given different stories about what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in other words made to believe the false to be true over and over again, hence being put into more confusion. Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, don't you think Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to convince a meditator about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller seeker? why do you think that is? Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about dhamma, I do not think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because 'they' are attached, I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and aversions. And I think you need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them together because it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. Looking forward to your response. May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, and may you succeed. Anumodhana Sukin shinlin wrote: Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ Attachment 14k (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailOJ.gif 1818 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:30pm Subject: Re: Ch IX > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather > than on the deed. > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. Dear Gayan, To me this seems to be the level of the language problem: to condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed they did do, seemingly for their own benefit while in fact enjoying using harsh words. While in the other case: > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used > (even) by the Buddha. > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own > mind. > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the > subsequent condemnation. > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the > doer.(papagarahata) Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's faults perhaps in order to point out a bad example that should not be followed, while in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- Does this make any sense? > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and 'niggaha' 'condemn or rebuke' Perhaps our Pali experts could help? Amara 1819 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Amara, Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade of a surgeon , and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) Thank you for your analytical mind. Anumodana, Alex ============================= >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX >Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:30:54 -0000 > > > > > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person >who is under > > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as >a help for > > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] > > > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat >as > > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the >person rather > > than on the deed. > > > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala >or an > > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > >Dear Gayan, > >To me this seems to be the level of the language problem: to >condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed they did do, >seemingly for their own benefit while in fact enjoying using harsh >words. > >While in the other case: > > > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And >it is not > > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . >Papagarahata is used > > (even) by the Buddha. > > > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by >others. And this > > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They >give in for > > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing >their own > > mind. > > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong >doings and the > > subsequent condemnation. > > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - >paravajjanupassita. > > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the > > doer.(papagarahata) > > >Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's faults perhaps in >order to point out a bad example that should not be followed, while >in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- > >Does this make any sense? > > > > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala >dhammas. > > > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english >word for the > > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) > > >In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and 'niggaha' 'condemn >or rebuke' > >Perhaps our Pali experts could help? > >Amara > 1821 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: Ch IX --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade of a surgeon , > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) Dear Alex, If indeed it is a wound you have, Alex, isn't it good to know it is one and that now it cannot masquerading as a beauty spot?!? Some wounds need to be opened and cleaned, then hopefully it will heal perfectly, don't you think? And I'm sure you have what it takes to make the best of it!!! =^_^= Anumodana in your strength to admit it, =^_^= Amara 1822 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Alex, I fully agree with Amara. This is the way it should be for all of us:the Dhamma is the mirror to show us our faults. Those with accumulations will learn to see even the slightest fault. What we used to think were our strengths turn out to be kilesa. It all springs from the clinging to the khandas in different ways. Good to find out about this multi-branched cancer; then it can be cut away. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Amara, > > > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade > of a > surgeon , > > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) > > > Dear Alex, > > If indeed it is a wound you have, Alex, isn't it good to know > it is > one and that now it cannot masquerading as a beauty spot?!? > Some > wounds need to be opened and cleaned, then hopefully it will > heal > perfectly, don't you think? And I'm sure you have what it > takes to > make the best of it!!! =^_^= > > Anumodana in your strength to admit it, > =^_^= > Amara > > > 1823 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:08pm Subject: Re: colour/sound --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > > Dear Robert, > By what I wrote below I meant that, say, for example; > 1. My finger touching the object was numb. > 2. My finger was burnt. > 3. My flesh on the finger was exposed. > 4. My finger was perfectly alright. > Under all these conditions the object felt would not be the same because > of the vedana on that part of the body. > However I gave the example not to show that it was the same kind of > process, but rather as a further illustration to what I thought you were > trying to express. Dear Sukin, Thanks for the exploration of the problem, I think that is why the ayatana comprise at least three parties that come together: The aramana, the base of the sense (pasada- sp?) and the citta that arises to experience the aramana. In the explanation of the vithi citta, for example, when the aramana had arisen some instants before coming into contact with the dvara, sometimes they fall away without the javana ever arising in time to experience them. In the case where the pasada is not in its 'normal' state, such as a mind full of the influence of drugs (a case of the nama being influenced by the rupa) the resulting experience could be distorted, I would think. And in the case that the nama failed to register the rupa, such as a person in deep sleep nat hearing the thunder outside his window, as in all the above cases, would happen when the conditions are there for them to happen. Hope I haven't confused you even further, Amara 1824 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:24pm Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Thank you for your kindness. I've been saving those Cheats posts in a special file so that I can review them over and over again. Anumodana, Alex >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:27:49 +0600 > > > > >Dear alex, > > >Thanks for such compassionate comments, > > >and thanks so much for giving me the info on this book,..i'm sure that >it'll be >great reading! >I also get the 'hint' in the title of the book.... >Buddha/dhamma is not just the 'light of asia' , but it really is the 'light >of >the tenthousandfold world systems' !!! > >:o) > >and also, planting the seed of saddha in young minds, and thats 'the' most >admirable thing can be done by a human being.Buddha says that this is what >he >does.( refering to your dhamma classes for young people ) > >best rgds to you and your friend 1825 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would think: what is the best way I can help that person to understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear and simple terms are the best. In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there and are very well explained. Hope this helps. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 beyugala@ksc.th.com ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:00 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1826 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin and Shin, In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about teaching children. I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand depends on the following main factors: 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail 2. Considering it correctly often enough 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some degree of understanding. I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes sutta) On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will still block the direct understanding of dhammas. How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical laws. However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we can. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Shin, > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > generalizing > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > or you do > not > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > to speak > my mind. > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > along with > fortune- > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > to seek > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > knowing that > condolences > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > face the > unknown, > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > the future > which he > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > look for a > way out of > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > who would > guide > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > is being > made, > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > different stories > about > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > other words > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > hence being > put > into more confusion. > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > don't you > think > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > convince a > meditator > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > seeker? why do > you think that is? > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > dhamma, I do not > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > 'they' > are attached, > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > aversions. And I > think you > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > together > because > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > Looking forward to your response. > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > and may you > succeed. > Anumodhana > > Sukin > > > > > shinlin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can > we explain > > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha > vedana and > > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind > doors, which > > eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. > Is it > > useless to explain anything to them because they are too > attached to > > the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma > might be the > > last thing to do. I see them like people going to > meditation. Whether > > the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and > secure after > > the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to > > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller > Seekers. Is > > there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your > advise. The > > advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am > meeting so many > > fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start > or how to > > begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma > can help > > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or > > bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. > > Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin > > Zebra Computer Company Limited > > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > 1826 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin and Shin, In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about teaching children. I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand depends on the following main factors: 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail 2. Considering it correctly often enough 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some degree of understanding. I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes sutta) On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will still block the direct understanding of dhammas. How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical laws. However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we can. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Shin, > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > generalizing > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > or you do > not > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > to speak > my mind. > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > along with > fortune- > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > to seek > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > knowing that > condolences > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > face the > unknown, > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > the future > which he > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > look for a > way out of > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > who would > guide > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > is being > made, > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > different stories > about > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > other words > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > hence being > put > into more confusion. > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > don't you > think > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > convince a > meditator > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > seeker? why do > you think that is? > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > dhamma, I do not > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > 'they' > are attached, > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > aversions. And I > think you > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > together > because > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > Looking forward to your response. > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > and may you > succeed. > Anumodhana > > Sukin > > > > > shinlin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can > we explain > > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha > vedana and > > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind > doors, which > > eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. > Is it > > useless to explain anything to them because they are too > attached to > > the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma > might be the > > last thing to do. I see them like people going to > meditation. Whether > > the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and > secure after > > the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to > > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller > Seekers. Is > > there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your > advise. The > > advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am > meeting so many > > fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start > or how to > > begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma > can help > > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or > > bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. > > Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin > > Zebra Computer Company Limited > > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > > > > 1827 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear betty, I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very good point). Robert --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Shin, > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > and simple terms are the best. > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > and are very well explained. > > Hope this helps. > with metta, > Betty > __________________________ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shinlin > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:00 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > Dear Dhamma friends, > I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to > people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, > which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a > week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they > are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their > listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them > like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is > right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the > discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking > forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful > for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. > And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the > conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA > Dhamma. Thankyou. > Anumodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > eGroups Sponsor > > > 1828 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:03pm Subject: Re: Need a helping hand Dear Robert, As Sukin told me the other day, it is good to hear the same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from various angles and perspectives. Which is why this group is so great, we have such a variety of voices at the service of the Dhamma! Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear betty, > I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking > yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers > being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very > good point). > Robert > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > > Dear Shin, > > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > > and simple terms are the best. > > > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > > and are very well explained. > > > > Hope this helps. > > with metta, > > Betty > > __________________________ > 1829 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick > Two main points, I think, to understand here. > 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration > meditation) can be > very effectively done, even to the extent of the > eight jhana by > one who holds very strong convictions about self. Interesting! I didn't know this... > This type of > meditation may even lead to more fixed views about > self (see > brahmajala sutta). This I knew (conceptually--from personal experience and observation)... > Now the actual view itself is > akusala but the > moments with true calm are kusala. I see, so intermittent kusala-akusala-kusala...and maybe remembered or conceived (incorrectly) of as one or the other, or a kind of blending of the two... > 2. One can have right view, know with deep > understanding that > there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One > may still use > the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one > knows that these > are simply designations, terms that are useful ways > of > communicating but that do not refer to actual > realities. I've been thinking of these ("...me, I and so on...", and names) recently as being kind of like computer file names, or URL's--just 'addresses', really, and useful, even necessary, but designating impersonal and impermanent phenomena... > Thus > one can still train "oneself", ...but, I take it that what might seem to be "training oneself" is really just the arising of previously acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, with concepts. etc... > but understand that > it is only by > conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one > will not be > perturbed if the kusala does not arise. Right--but wouldn't the non-arising of perturbation indicate that some degree of kusala has arisen? > Samattha and > vipassana > can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka > -vipassaka, > dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, > the > development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much > easier. The > far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is > developed one can > reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas > and rupas that > arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry > with the > new ones? But these ones were not the ones that > conditioned the > sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that > ear-sense and > hearing consciousness have likewise long since > passed...". This is the the kind of retrospective reflection I'm trying to get a handle on (though maybe rather more to the point, specifically addressing nama and rupa)... > this > is just a very rough example of the type of > reflection > conditioned by the development of vipassana. This > level of > understanding allows metta to replace the anger. ...or upekkha? > Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for > the true > development of vipassana there must be good > understanding of the > characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often > discuss, one > will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is > better and > better understood, by developing satipatthana, one > is less > fooled by it also when developing metta. Right. > > Even > > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more > > kusala > > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' > > or > > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the > > Buddha's > > intention when instructing his listeners to think > > or > > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > > > The thinking process is composed of namas and some > of these also > condition rupa. I'm beginning to grasp this--I think. > What is not real is the concept that > may be the > object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, > tables, cars, > pretty woman...) Oh! I've been confusing 'thought' with 'concept'--I think this may be the crux of my problem...! > The javanna moments are always > rooted in > either kusala (with amoha (wisdom) or without) or > akusala. Thus > we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. > When we > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the > thoughts are to > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, > detachment and > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of > course be > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or > attachment.) So, is the point that concepts, though just concepts, can be ACCOMPANIED BY kusala or akusala, rather than really 'being' kusala or akusala themselves? Also, I looked up 'javana' in the glossary. It is defined briefly as 'impulsion, running through the object'--in this case, what would the object be? > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a > crucial factor > before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the > direct > understanding develops this supports more > understanding at the > thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise > thinking, direct > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > wisethinking...A very gradual upward spiral, cira > kala bhavana > (long, long time development). This seems to make perfect sense to me (so it's probably a 'cheat'. I'll investigate.) > Even after vipassana > nanas are > reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is > needed to > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga > XVIII24 says > "after defining mentality-materialty thus according > to its true > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then > in order to > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a > person' more > thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and to > establish > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure > that the > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > menatlity-materiality, there is no being, no person' > is confirmed > by a number of suttas..." Interesting! Sounds like he's referring to the Four Great References... > Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief > explanation > only. Will do! If I'm being too obtuse, please send me back to the kids' table. Thanks as always, mn 1830 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sarakaani THANKS GAYAN! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear sarah, > > The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. > Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS > Translation series No.16 > > > rgds. > > (See attached file: sarakaani.txt) > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=sarakaani.txt 1831 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 7:13pm Subject: Fwd: heartfelt condolences From: Rinriver@a... Full-name: Rinriver Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:49:56 EST Subject: Re: heartfelt condolences To: beyugala@k... Dear Betty: My sincere thank to you and everyone from the group. One story that tarn ajarn tell on one of the tape (I think it's the bara mee dham in daily life) There is a man that love his wife very much, later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't handle it. finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to him"birth,sickness, oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last night sleep you are a day closer to your death, but every time you blink your eye, the death is following that blink" I am very impressed with that story, and would like to share that with you all. Thanks again for all your support, Sincerely, O 1832 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Ms. Shin, After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may be closer in understanding to these unfortunate people, maybe my perspective can be of some use: If they're willing to listen this far, start with dosa (really, their concept of the dosa). They'll be experiencing plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell them to investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt them to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS present. Tell them to ask themselves over and over again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it that 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a name, to really identify what the desire is, it will CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return their attention to the (concept of) the original dosa--it will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of reflection, a little sadha may arise associated with this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may lead to bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, upward spiral... Hope this helps, Ma'am, Mike --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > I need your help. In what ways can we explain > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it > useless to explain anything to them because they are > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that > their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to > do. I see them like people going to meditation. > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they > felt peace and secure after the discussion with the > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know > what to start or how to begin the conversation when > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life > especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. > Anumodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > 1833 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Alex, Ain't it the truth! Every one of these chapters hurts so good, doesn't it? mn --- A T wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with > the blade of a surgeon , > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! > :-))) > > Thank you for your analytical mind. > > Anumodana, > Alex > ============================= > >From: "amara chay" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX > >Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:30:54 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata > vangceti > > > > > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful > actions done by a person > >who is under > > > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the > action not the person] as > >a help for > > > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning > the wrong action ] > > > > > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh > words. > > > The internal tendency and the delight in using > harsh words may cheat > >as > > > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words > will focus on the > >person rather > > > than on the deed. > > > > > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma > is either a kusala > >or an > > > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > > > > >Dear Gayan, > > > >To me this seems to be the level of the language > problem: to > >condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed > they did do, > >seemingly for their own benefit while in fact > enjoying using harsh > >words. > > > >While in the other case: > > > > > > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita > vangceti > > > > > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning > the evil deeds. And > >it is not > > > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the > evil doer . > >Papagarahata is used > > > (even) by the Buddha. > > > > > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil > deeds done by > >others. And this > > > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the > part of the former.They > >give in for > > > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil > deeds., thereby abusing > >their own > > > mind. > > > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search > for others' wrong > >doings and the > > > subsequent condemnation. > > > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others > - > >paravajjanupassita. > > > and not the condemning of evils without dosa > towards the deed or the > > > doer.(papagarahata) > > > > > >Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's > faults perhaps in > >order to point out a bad example that should not be > followed, while > >in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- > > > >Does this make any sense? > > > > > > > and again the point is to find and be aware of > any hidden akusala > >dhammas. > > > > > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is > the right english > >word for the > > > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it > 'insulting'?) > > > > > >In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and > 'niggaha' 'condemn > >or rebuke' > > > >Perhaps our Pali experts could help? > > > >Amara > > > > > > 1834 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: heartfelt condolences Welcome Back, O! --- protectID wrote: > There is a man that love his wife very much, > later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't > handle it. > finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to > him"birth,sickness, > oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last > night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time > you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" I'm very impressed by this too. Can anyone identify its source, other than the tape? It's so nice to hear from you again, o... mike 1835 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Thank you for the explanation from A. Sujin. It reminds me of the works of a painter. In front of a canvas, she can give us illusions of a 3D objects by her skill of using various colors and their shades. Anumodana, Alex > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different >in >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. >with regards, >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th 1836 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 4:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, Thank you for talking about how we teach children Dhamma. Now, I also know that you have a young son named Alex. :-))) Alex ==================== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 06:39:41 -0800 (PST) > >Dear sukin and Shin, >In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about >teaching children. >I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. >Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say >that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand >depends on the following main factors: >1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail >2. Considering it correctly often enough >3. applying what they consider correctly again and again >4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past > >Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what >their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some >may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and >again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some >degree of understanding. >I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand >paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone >else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one >other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, >whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have >only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once >he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and >results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes >sutta) >On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of >Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling >so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will >still block the direct understanding of dhammas. > >How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma >is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions >and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to >understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it >is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad >that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions >the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have >read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is >at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of >anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more >and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I >talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka >stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out >the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the >bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged >his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he >thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she >would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now >because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When >a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only >have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this >life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then >admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to >learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical >laws. >However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is >hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we >can. >Robert > 1837 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 4:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Mike, Amara, Robert, and friends, Every chapter reveals the hidden tumors I carefully nurture with love (read: lobha)! I like your "Ouch!" yesterday very much. :-))) It's my ouch, too. Thanks, Amara and Robert, for reminding me that now is the time to heal. :-))) It'll be a very very slow process, I know. AT ============== >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:27:36 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Alex, > >Ain't it the truth! Every one of these chapters hurts >so good, doesn't it? > >mn 1838 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sarakaani Dear Gayan, many thanks for your trouble...I'm rushing out now, i look f/w to reading it at me leisure later. Sarah >From: "m. nease" > >THANKS GAYAN! >--- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear sarah, > > > > The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. > > Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS > > Translation series No.16 > > > > > > rgds. 1839 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Hello, Robert, I had lots of lobha knowing we think along the same lines. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > Dear betty, > I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking > yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers > being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very > good point). > Robert > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > > Dear Shin, > > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > > and simple terms are the best. > > > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > > and are very well explained. > > > > Hope this helps. > > with metta, > > Betty > > __________________________ 1840 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Betty and Robert, --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, Robert, > I had lots of lobha knowing we think along the same > lines. > > With metta, > Betty I had lots too, WISHING we did. With tanha, mn 1841 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:33am Subject: Re: Fwd: heartfelt condolences > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" Dear O, Welcome back and thank you for the marana-sati quote. I really look forward to seeing you in less than a month now, and am very glad Khun Jack is coming is a week! Amara 1843 From: Joe Cummings Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 156 Hello Betty Thanks very much for Nina's contact information. I pass through Tha Uthen on occasion (for the stupa), and will have to pay her a surprise visit one day soon. I would never have guessed that she, like myself, would still be living in Thailand after all these years. metta, Joe >Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 23:10:37 +0700 > From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >Subject: Re: time & path > >Hello, Joe, >Nina is a friend of mine who had given me Achaan Sujin's name several years >ago. But I guess at that time I was not yet ready to study with her. I'm >sure she'd like to hear from you and would not mind me giving you her >address: > Nina and Charoen Wimuttikosol > PO Box 13, Muang, Nakorn Phanom 48000 > (street address:) > 38 Moo 2, Bahn Nok Hauk, Wern Prabat, > Tha Uthen, Nakorn Phanom 48000 > ph: 01-220-3055, 01-670-4955 > e-mail: protectID (she shares this with another and cannot >always get to the computer terminal to answer mail. Therefore, she will not >be able to carry on with the group's correspondence). > >Hope you can get in touch with her. > >With metta, >Betty >__________________________ 1844 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah, From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000 10:58 AM EST >Dear Jim, > >you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply >promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks >for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very >different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! Well, you can include me as one of the ones who get behind in responding. I often find it hard to keep up with the email messages. They can take up a lot of time just to read through them, let alone writing a response. In order to find more time for the translation work, I think I'm going to have to stop the flow of incoming emails for periods of time as much as I enjoy receiving them. >When I first turned up at >the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's >sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't >realised it was her personal address I had! You're lucky to have met Miss Horner! I corresponded with her when I sent in my annual order for more PTS books and have saved all the letters she sent me. I have enjoyed reading her translations of the Majjhimanikaya and Vinayapitaka. She sets a good example of what a Pali translator should be. >btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and >meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What >kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? >Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! Yes, I definitely see meditation and dhamma study as two essential parts of my practice. For me, the first part is for developing concentration (samaadhi) while the second part is for developing the understanding (pa~n~naa). My main meditation subject is the breath at the nose tip and I base this practice on the anapanassatikatha text found in the Patisambhidamagga of the Khuddakanikaya. I include my Pali studies in with dhamma study. Ideally, I try to devote equal time to both meditation and dhamma study. I keep track of my meditation hours and try to maintain an average of four hours a day in the formal sitting posture (cross-legged). It is harder for me to keep track of how much time I actually spend working on dhamma texts. An important part of my dhamma study is the memorization & recital of selected Pali texts from the Tipitaka. I have been working at establishing a regular daily practice of reciting from memory in a formal posture such as sitting, walking, or standing. I find this practice very good for getting more concentrated in the mind, in addition to being a good way of getting to know the texts. I'm convinced that meditation and dhamma-study can work well together as an effective pair. >>Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. >>I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It >>still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in >>Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done >>some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 >>paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. > >Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas >9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) I have quite a bit of work to do to catch up with you and Kom. I hope to learn more about the 24 pacccayas through my translation work, general reading, and discussion with people like yourself & others in this group. >Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the >Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. >joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll >be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if >needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar >as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this >will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and >I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! Thank-you for your encouraging words! I will most likely be taking my time and making sure that the translation is reliable and accurate. After a few days spent working on the first word (devaatideva), I realize that my understanding of devas is very limited and now I have started to do some careful research on them as they are discussed in some detail in the tikas and even more so under the root /div/ in the Saddaniti, a 12th cent. grammatical treatise. I take this as an opportunity to learn more about the devas. After all it was to them that the Abhidhamma was originally taught. Btw, I came across the word "amara" in a list of synonyms of "deva". It is great to know that a few of you keep in close contact with Nina and it is an honour to know that you & Robert would think of informing her about my work. I hope to meet her if and whenever she comes on line. There is yet another message of yours which I intend to respond to. Just wait a little longer! You mentioned that Jonothan will be in Ottawa soon. I'm afraid I won't be near Ottawa which is about 400 km east of here. I think the last time I was in Ottawa was in 1978. I understand that you & Jonothan live in Hongkong. Did you ever meet Paul Baran who lived in HK up until last year but now lives in British Columbia (I think)? With best wishes, Jim A. 1845 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear robert, you said -> " It is so absolutely amazing that anybody could DECIPHER such a mess of conditions that are all meeting just for an instant before being replaced by new ones. We can see why the Buddha took 4 incalculably long periods of time and 100,000 aeons to be able to do so (and that is not counting the incalculably long period of time preceeding his prediction)." well said!! decipher is the word... ....and to think of all the encryption keys of the mara, and the decryption keys of the Buddha.... :o) rgds. 1846 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Thanx robert and amara , your 'words' are very useful 1847 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound See my comments below. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > -- Robert Kirkpatrick > Two main points, I think, to understand here. > > 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration > > meditation) can be > > very effectively done, even to the extent of the > > eight jhana by > > one who holds very strong convictions about self. > > Interesting! I didn't know this... > > > This type of > > meditation may even lead to more fixed views about > > self (see > > brahmajala sutta). > > This I knew (conceptually--from personal experience > and observation)... > > > Now the actual view itself is > > akusala but the > > moments with true calm are kusala. > > I see, so intermittent kusala-akusala-kusala...and > maybe remembered or conceived (incorrectly) of as one > or the other, or a kind of blending of the two... If someone holds the fixed wrong view that there is no result of kamma, no future lives and so on then I think they would be unable to attain jhana. However one have views of self but these don't hinder jhana usually but they definetly block vipassana. > > > 2. One can have right view, know with deep > > understanding that > > there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One > > may still use > > the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one > > knows that these > > are simply designations, terms that are useful ways > > of > > communicating but that do not refer to actual > > realities. > > I've been thinking of these ("...me, I and so on...", > and names) recently as being kind of like computer > file names, or URL's--just 'addresses', really, and > useful, even necessary, but designating impersonal and > impermanent phenomena... Yes we don't need to hide away from concepts or try to stop having them. They are very necessary in daily life. It is all about seeing them as concepts and seeing realities as realities. > > > Thus > > one can still train "oneself", > > ...but, I take it that what might seem to be "training > oneself" is really just the arising of previously > acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, > with concepts. etc... Accumulations are not the only conditions. There are new conditions arising in the present also. If the Buddha tells someone to use great viriya to stop the arising of akusala this can be an immediate condition for wholesome viriya and kusala to arise. The buddha of course knew of who this exhortation would condition kusala (because he knew their accumulations). These days if a teacher says the same thing, but the student is hazy about anatta and doesn't have the accumulations, it will very likely result in viriya asscoaited with akusala(better not to have it). > > > but understand that > > it is only by > > conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one > > will not be > > perturbed if the kusala does not arise. > > Right--but wouldn't the non-arising of perturbation > indicate that some degree of kusala has arisen? Yes, Right > > Samattha and > > vipassana > > can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka > > -vipassaka, > > dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, > > the > > development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much > > easier. The > > far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is > > developed one can > > reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas > > and rupas that > > arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry > > with the > > new ones? But these ones were not the ones that > > conditioned the > > sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that > > ear-sense and > > hearing consciousness have likewise long since > > passed...". > > This is the the kind of retrospective reflection I'm > trying to get a handle on (though maybe rather more to > the point, specifically addressing nama and rupa)... > > > this > > is just a very rough example of the type of > > reflection > > conditioned by the development of vipassana. This > > level of > > understanding allows metta to replace the anger. > > ...or upekkha? Right uppekkha or metta or other types of kusala, or even simply panna of vipassana. > > > Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for > > the true > > development of vipassana there must be good > > understanding of the > > characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often > > discuss, one > > will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is > > better and > > better understood, by developing satipatthana, one > > is less > > fooled by it also when developing metta. > > Right. > > > > Even > > > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more > > > kusala > > > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' > > > or > > > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the > > > Buddha's > > > intention when instructing his listeners to think > > > or > > > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > > > > > The thinking process is composed of namas and some > > of these also > > condition rupa. > > I'm beginning to grasp this--I think. > > > What is not real is the concept that > > may be the > > object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, > > tables, cars, > > pretty woman...) > > Oh! I've been confusing 'thought' with 'concept'--I > think this may be the crux of my problem...! Remember there is never and has never been even a moment in samsara when citta and cetasikas are not arising (except for the rare case of nonpercipient beings in the rupa jhana world- but let's leave those aside). So even for someone who is completely mad and lost in imaginary delusions there are at every moment cittas and cetasikas- realities arsing and pasing away. But the concepts, the ideas, the stories are not real. > > > The javanna moments are always > > rooted in > > either kusala (with amoha (wisdom) or without) or > > akusala. Thus > > we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. > > When we > > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the > > thoughts are to > > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, > > detachment and > > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of > > course be > > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or > > attachment.) > > So, is the point that concepts, though just concepts, > can be ACCOMPANIED BY kusala or akusala, rather than > really 'being' kusala or akusala themselves? Also, I > looked up 'javana' in the glossary. It is defined > briefly as 'impulsion, running through the object'--in > this case, what would the object be? We don't say concepts are accompanied by kusala or akusla because that might imply some reality to the concept. When we think about dhamma correctly the citta is rooted in wisdom. But the idea itself is not a reality. As you say the concept cannot be akusala or kusala. So we might think "everything is anatta" but still the citta could be rooted in akusala - because of a distorted understanding somehow (eg someone might think anatta means everything happens by random chance). Or we could think exactly the same thing but it is rooted in wisdom. the javanna cittas are expalined in abhidhamma in daily life. > > > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a > > crucial factor > > before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the > > direct > > understanding develops this supports more > > understanding at the > > thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise > > thinking, direct > > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > > wisethinking...A very gradual upward spiral, cira > > kala bhavana > > (long, long time development). > > This seems to make perfect sense to me (so it's > probably a 'cheat'. I'll investigate.) > > > Even after vipassana > > nanas are > > reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is > > needed to > > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga > > XVIII24 says > > "after defining mentality-materialty thus according > > to its true > > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then > > in order to > > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a > > person' more > > thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and > to > > establish > > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure > > that the > > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > > menatlity-materiality, there is no being, no person' > > is confirmed > > by a number of suttas..." > > Interesting! Sounds like he's referring to the Four > Great References... Sorry what are the four great references? > Robert 1848 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, As always you make the effort to inspire right understanding in every member of this group, I appreciate this quality of yours very much. As of late I try not to generalize, because that was a habit that I had been accumulating for so many years and I found it useful only for myself when making choices between 'things', but when it came to people(who have their own generalized views)it brought mostly heartache. But the tendency it seems, is to jump from one extreme to another, 'generalizing' to 'no- generalizing', which besides having its own drawbacks, is ditthi posing an obstruction to panna. And then what happens, aren't I back to generalizing again. Besides, would I have written the post in the first place had it not been that I, still practicing meditation, did not like to be classed under the same category as fortune-teller seekers? Holding to a self-image isn't it? Anyway, I was aware even while writing yesterday, that to say that meditators would understand 'about' paramatthadhamma more easily than fortune-teller seekers, I was ignoring the many possible exceptions. Your point nos.1, 2, and 3 were vaguely in my mind, except for the crucial 'correct' in points 2 and 3. Point 4 never occured to me and I think it is very important, if anything at least in my own case, often I wonder how I landed into this group, I tell myself that it is probably accumulations from past life. Also I never thought about the law of 'kamma' and its connection with the way those people thought, which Betty saw. Had I seen it, my post would have been different. Also I liked Mike's approach and explanation very much. However I still see a need to keep away from grouping, and I'm sure that both Betty and Mike are aware of its limitations too. Infact Mike's suggested method clearly points to the fact of dealing with each person on an individual basis. As Amara reminded me of what I said, that, it is good to hear the same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from various angles and perspectives. I do not have the viriya anymore to write further, eventhough I did have other things in mind, feeling not too good healthwise, maybe some other day I will view my opinion if it still persists. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sukin and Shin, > In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about > teaching children. > I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. > Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say > that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand > depends on the following main factors: > 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail > 2. Considering it correctly often enough > 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again > 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past > > Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what > their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some > may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and > again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some > degree of understanding. > I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand > paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone > else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one > other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, > whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have > only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once > he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and > results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes > sutta) > On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of > Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling > so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will > still block the direct understanding of dhammas. > > How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma > is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions > and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to > understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it > is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad > that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions > the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have > read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is > at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of > anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more > and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I > talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka > stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out > the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the > bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged > his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he > thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she > would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now > because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When > a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only > have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this > life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then > admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to > learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical > laws. > However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is > hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we > can. > Robert > > --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear > Shin, > > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > > generalizing > > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > > or you do > > not > > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > > to speak > > my mind. > > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > > along with > > fortune- > > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > > to seek > > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > > knowing that > > condolences > > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > > face the > > unknown, > > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > > the future > > which he > > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > > look for a > > way out of > > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > > who would > > guide > > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > > is being > > made, > > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > > different stories > > about > > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > > other words > > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > > hence being > > put > > into more confusion. > > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > > don't you > > think > > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > > convince a > > meditator > > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > > seeker? why do > > you think that is? > > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > > dhamma, I do not > > > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > > 'they' > > are attached, > > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > > aversions. And I > > think you > > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > > together > > because > > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > > Looking forward to your response. > > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > > and may you > > succeed. > > Anumodhana > > > > Sukin > > > > > 1849 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 6:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks very much for your comments. I'll respond at length when time permits. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Sorry what are the four great references? My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what one has heard, not experienced: The Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Maha-Parinibbana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html 1850 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 8:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what > one has heard, not experienced: I remember now Mike. And thanks for pointing them out. There is some relevance as part of the quote from the visuddhimagga indicates that confidence in anatta etc increases as one sees references to them in the suttas> > The Four Great References > > 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, > saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the > four great references. Listen and pay heed to my > words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: > > "So be it, Lord." > > 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, > bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with > the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned > thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the > Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and > such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. > Face to face with that community, I have heard and > learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, > the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such > and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, > who are learned, who have accomplished their course, > who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and > the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have > heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the > Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an > abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu > who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished > his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the > Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that > elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the > Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' > > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a > bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor > with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but > carefully studying the sentences word by word, one > should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by > the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the > Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must > conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed > One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that > bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, > or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should > reject it. But if the sentences concerned are > traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the > Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, > this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been > well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that > community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And > in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, > second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, > are the four great references for you to preserve." > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > > 1851 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 9:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin, Your reflections show your accumulations. We are where we are because of conditions- we are in the good place because of them and the bad place because of them. I happen to believe that this is a good place and that the people who like to listen and discuss with us have much accumulated parami (but please don't take my word for it). The way you consider things is very wise and you are quick to realize your attachments. And that is all we need to do. Just by seeing them properly is their hold loosened. Your open and sincere remarks help everyone. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > As always you make the effort to inspire right understanding > in > every member of this group, I appreciate this quality of yours > very > much. As of late I try not to generalize, because that was a > habit > that I had been accumulating for so many years and I found it > useful only for myself when making choices between 'things', > but when it came to people(who have their own generalized > views)it brought mostly heartache. But the tendency it seems, > is to jump from one extreme to another, 'generalizing' to 'no- > generalizing', which besides having its own drawbacks, is > ditthi > posing an obstruction to panna. And then what happens, aren't > I back to generalizing again. Besides, would I have written > the post in the first place had it not been that I, still > practicing > meditation, did not like to be classed under the same category > as fortune-teller seekers? Holding to a self-image isn't it? > Anyway, I was aware even while writing yesterday, that to say > that meditators would understand 'about' paramatthadhamma > more easily than fortune-teller seekers, I was ignoring the > many > possible exceptions. Your point nos.1, 2, and 3 were vaguely > in my mind, except for the crucial 'correct' in points 2 and > 3. > Point 4 never occured to me and I think it is very important, > if anything at least in my own case, often I wonder how I > landed > into this group, I tell myself that it is probably > accumulations from > past life. > Also I never thought about the law of 'kamma' and its > connection with the way those people thought, which Betty saw. > Had I seen it, my post would have been different. > Also I liked Mike's approach and explanation very much. > However I still see a need to keep away from grouping, and > I'm sure that both Betty and Mike are aware of its limitations > too. Infact Mike's suggested method clearly points to the fact > of dealing with each person on an individual basis. > As Amara reminded me of what I said, that, it is good to hear > the > same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from > various > angles and perspectives. > I do not have the viriya anymore to write further, eventhough > I did have other things in mind, feeling not too good > healthwise, > maybe some other day I will view my opinion if it still > persists. > > Sukin. > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > 1852 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 6:48pm Subject: Ch X 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti [friends , pls put the best english word for pali 'macchariya'..... ] kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop the compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( kula ) who supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help from the 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get the dhammadana, inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is how the bee collects nectar without harming the flower ) akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the kulas can arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to dislike the idea that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same to other samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by appearing in the form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. [ and for 'avasa' too...] kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the avasas so the conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a long time. akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with fellow monks. Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. These types of cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to see the danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) mistaking them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is that these are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones who have the intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop kusala. ) 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam vangceti. kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma knowledge . Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' the 'loop holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas ,gateways, methods for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the direct intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the propagation of true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is not on the person ) and being cautious in such situations is dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with care)]. akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding the dhamma knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing it..as all forms of macchariyas are. contd. 1853 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch X dear gayan, thanks again. I think macchariya is stinginess. The one about not sharing the Dhamma with the foolish or bad ones has always troubled me. I know that in thailand some of those who listen to khun Sujin's radio program take her words, use the knowledge to build confidence in their students but then teach the practice wrongly. Impossible to stop this I think. --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali > 'macchariya'..... ] > > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop > the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( > kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help > from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get > the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is > how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the > kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to > dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same > to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by > appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the > avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a > long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with > fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. > These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to > see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) > mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is > that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones > who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop > kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam > vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma > knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' > the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas > ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the > direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the > propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is > not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with > care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding > the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing > it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. > > > 1854 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch X Dear Gayan, Thanks as always. Thanks particularly for the always-timely (and I think liberating, in a coarse sort of way) reminder, 'Detecting these motives (the motive!, focus is not on the person) and being cautious in such situations is dhammaparibandhapariharana. [pariharana - handling ( with care)].' --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam > vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali > 'macchariya'..... ] > > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas > should develop the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay > people( kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get > the help from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the > kulas get the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the > simile is how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya > regarding the kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency > to dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing > the same to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself > by appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela > monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam > vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and > maintaining the avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail > for a long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the > avasa with fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with > others. These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The > point is to see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being > developed(upasampada) mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall > again is that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but > the ones who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to > develop kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena > dhammamacchariyam vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the > dhamma knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to > 'discover' the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' > ideas ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes > with the direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently > harm the propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , > focus is not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling > ( with care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya > regarding the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and > sharing it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. > > > 1855 From: protectID=Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: Fwd: heartfelt condolences Dear O, Welcome back! I hope that you are well. Metta, AT 1856 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 3:40am Subject: Re: Ch X --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali 'macchariya'..... Dear Gayan, I think your translation as unwillingness to share is fine, Amara PS. I'm off for another three day trip and might not be able to check in at all for a while, so see you all soon! > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. 1857 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 11:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Sukin, I am not trying to classify the people into this group or that group. What I meant was there are people who are more interested in other things like going to fortune teller too. And we have not encounter any discussions of this sort of subjects before, or at least I have not encounter before and do not know how to begin dhamma with them. That is all what I meant. I am sorry if you misinterpret my intentions. with regards, Shin Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if generalizing has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I or you do not develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try to speak my mind. Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators along with fortune- teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided to seek 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, knowing that condolences or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to face the unknown, the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about the future which he thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both look for a way out of confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons who would guide them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress is being made, the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given different stories about what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in other words made to believe the false to be true over and over again, hence being put into more confusion. Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, don't you think Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to convince a meditator about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller seeker? why do you think that is? Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about dhamma, I do not think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because 'they' are attached, I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and aversions. And I think you need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them together because it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. Looking forward to your response. May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, and may you succeed. Anumodhana Sukin shinlin wrote: Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1858 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear M. Betty, Thankyou for your kind advise. It is a very very good advise. The kamma will start the interest for the fortune teller seekers. I tried your method and tomorrow or on Saturday, my friend since 6 years old and my sister will be coming to the English Dhamma Discussion. They are the fortune teller seekers, especially my sister. My sister is Jane and my friend is Janet who is half Thai and Sri Lakian. Both of them are from similiar background like me. We are from a Catholic School since 1st-12th grade. Janet was a strict Catholic, but somehow things changed when her mom introduced her Thai mediation from the Wat and fortune telling about her future from some monks. As for my sister, Jane, was a Christian and she mediates before but the meditation didn't get her anywhere. So someone introduced her to fortune telling so she goes according to what the future teller tells her. And she is very successful at work and she thinks that because the future teller showed the right path to her. There are some future teller who was not accurate but she still believes in them because she said that the future teller told her it was her fate or something related to Kamma. So I talked to them about NOT self and very very little bit of Kamma and very very little of dhamma. Due to many reasons that I am not in the position to tell them anything much, they are very very new and they would to know what I am doing and what our dhamma group is all about. So it would be appreciated if M.Betty can help them tomorrow at the discussion. I am going to keep my mouth shut tomorrow because the relationship between the friendship and sister thing is too close to allow me to say anything much. Thankyou for your kind help. Anumodana shin Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear betty, | I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking | yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers | being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very | good point). | Robert | --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > | Dear Shin, | > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune | > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to | > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would | > think: what is the best way I can help that person to | > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, | > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear | > and simple terms are the best. | > | > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly | > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka | > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such | > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from | > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to | > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either | > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are | > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece | > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller | > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to | > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there | > and are very well explained. | > | > Hope this helps. | > with metta, | > Betty | > __________________________ | > 1859 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Mike, Thankyou for your advise. Your advise was my first step that got me into the Dhamma class and understanding of Dhamma. It really helped me, so I tried my own method toward my friends but they told me that I was stressing them out. They want a result. They want the solution which it was impossible for me to give it to them. All we could do was for them to accept the truth and realities of lobha,dosa, but they don't want that. This is the point that was the hardest. M.Betty mentioned Kamma. So I tried on them, they liked it. They are coming to the dhamma discussion tomorrow at the Foundation. But I think the rest will be their real kamma if they are going to continue studying the realities. Thankyou for your advise, it gives me the nostalgia of my past. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Ms. Shin, | | After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a | little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may be | closer in understanding to these unfortunate people, | maybe my perspective can be of some use: If they're | willing to listen this far, start with dosa (really, | their concept of the dosa). They'll be experiencing | plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell them to | investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt them | to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS | present. Tell them to ask themselves over and over | again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it that | 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a | name, to really identify what the desire is, it will | CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return their | attention to the (concept of) the original dosa--it | will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the | change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of | reflection, a little sadha may arise associated with | this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may lead to | bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, upward | spiral... | | Hope this helps, Ma'am, | | Mike | --- shinlin wrote: | > Dear Dhamma friends, | > I need your help. In what ways can we explain | > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the | > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing | > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives | > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it | > useless to explain anything to them because they are | > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that | > their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to | > do. I see them like people going to meditation. | > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they | > felt peace and secure after the discussion with the | > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to | > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune | > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. | > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be | > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so | > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know | > what to start or how to begin the conversation when | > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life | > especially when they are in the middle of | > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side | > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. | > Anumodana | > Ms.Shin Lin | > Zebra Computer Company Limited | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th | > | | 1860 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear shinlin, you said --> "it gives me the nostalgia of my past." same here.. dhamma has its own way .. :o) rgds. 1861 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear gayan, Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's post interesting and anything you have to add will be valued. Dear Shin, Very good that you encourage others to listen to Dhamma. Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address from my mother )and I think she will join the discussion soon. The whole earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - it is a bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear shinlin, > > you said --> "it gives me the nostalgia of my past." > > same here.. > > dhamma has its own way .. > > :o) > > > rgds. > > > 1862 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. yeah... the techs of color monitor is a real nice way to relate to the study of rupa, and every thing in computer technology too... every paradigm boils down to ones and zeros... And this concept of windows , popping up, scrolling ,dragdrop... all are now beginning to stick into every computer-literate person's mind and its really funny in a viewpoint of a person who has never used a computer. In the examples that Buddha gives, rupa(vanna rupa, sadda rupa ..etc ) is like a lump of foam, vedana is like a bubble, sanna is like mirage, samkhara is like a 'log of a plantain tree' and vinnana is like a magician or a magician's trick. rgds 1863 From: m. nease Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 2:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, Thanks for your response. I think, in retrospect, mine was bad advice. If they're willing to listen, please tell them, whether they go to fortune-tellers or not, just to listen to the dhamma as often as they can. mn --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun Mike, > Thankyou for your advise. Your advise was my > first step that got me into > the Dhamma class and understanding of Dhamma. It > really helped me, so I > tried my own method toward my friends but they told > me that I was stressing > them out. They want a result. They want the solution > which it was impossible > for me to give it to them. All we could do was for > them to accept the truth > and realities of lobha,dosa, but they don't want > that. This is the point > that was the hardest. M.Betty mentioned Kamma. So I > tried on them, they > liked it. They are coming to the dhamma discussion > tomorrow at the > Foundation. But I think the rest will be their real > kamma if they are going > to continue studying the realities. > Thankyou for your advise, it gives me the nostalgia > of my past. > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: m. nease > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | Dear Ms. Shin, > | > | After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a > | little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may > be > | closer in understanding to these unfortunate > people, > | maybe my perspective can be of some use: If > they're > | willing to listen this far, start with dosa > (really, > | their concept of the dosa). They'll be > experiencing > | plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell > them to > | investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt > them > | to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS > | present. Tell them to ask themselves over and > over > | again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it > that > | 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a > | name, to really identify what the desire is, it > will > | CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return > their > | attention to the (concept of) the original > dosa--it > | will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the > | change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of > | reflection, a little sadha may arise associated > with > | this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may > lead to > | bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, > upward > | spiral... > | > | Hope this helps, Ma'am, > | > | Mike > | --- shinlin wrote: > | > Dear Dhamma friends, > | > I need your help. In what ways can we > explain > | > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of > the > | > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana > appearing > | > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually > drives > | > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it > | > useless to explain anything to them because they > are > | > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that > | > their listening to dhamma might be the last > thing to > | > do. I see them like people going to meditation. > | > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, > they > | > felt peace and secure after the discussion with > the > | > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to > | > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > | > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help > them. > | > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would > be > | > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so > | > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't > know > | > what to start or how to begin the conversation > when > | > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their > life > | > especially when they are in the middle of > | > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad > side > | > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. > | > Anumodana > | > Ms.Shin Lin > | > Zebra Computer Company Limited > | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > | > > | > | > 1864 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 3:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear robert, Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate instance.. And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later age.. with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly related to the post but it triggered the thought.. And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming ..) how the things have changed.. and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the templates called 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in programming what he uses is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' ] , of drinking alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for pleasure ,they feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the feelings..., certainly not a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me about dhamma in those instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have understood the value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of somebody',' cannabis is really good, almost all the best of great thinkers ,philosophers,artists have used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really healthy drug', ' its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob you off your rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, improves friendship!' etc.. (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, how the priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed from myself. now its strange to think that i first started looking for dhamma ( searching for material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things happen... (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' the same will apply sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one gets the same dhamma understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a defilement and failing to understand the true nature of things, and rather unnecessary. lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in 'me' other than the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. May be this is the only thing that that can be said to motivate one( ppl like these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] in learning and trying to understand dhamma) The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that the persons will infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote this email,......for me , writing about me was never easy I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway I'll press the send button :o) rgds. Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/10/2000 10:45:32 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear gayan, Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's post interesting and anything you have to add will be valued. Dear Shin, Very good that you encourage others to listen to Dhamma. Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address from my mother )and I think she will join the discussion soon. The whole earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - it is a bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear shinlin, > > you said --> "it gives me the nostalgia of my past." > > same here.. > > dhamma has its own way .. > > :o) > > > rgds. > > > 1865 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 4:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear gayan, thanks for your interesting letter, (no 'clear aim' is fine). I think most of us know what you mean. I was a rabid atheist, conceited about my 'scientific' outlook; and lived a reckless life based on a philosphy of 'nothing matters' because we all die anyway. A different life for sure. Though in some ways not so much has changed - still plenty of lust, anger and delusion. Only the outlook has changed so much, but that makes all the difference. It seems that we all came to Dhamma through different ways, methods, and purposes. Our original reasons for interest have long passed. Perhaps it feels like a huge coincidence that we got where we are at all. In fact, I believe the real causes for our interest go back over many lives, and even aeons. We hear Dhamma because of kamma done in the past- the hearing is kusala vipaka. We get more interested because of accumulations-also from the past. Now is the time when we make further accumulations. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant > and alien.. > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , > like a seperate > instance.. > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate > instances.. > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no > permanent > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and > another of a later > age.. > > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' > , not exactly > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at > the dhamma, you > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding > the > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more > of these because > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that > laughing instance > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but > somewhat alarming > ..) how the things have changed.. > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in > the computer > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the > templates called > 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in > programming what he uses > is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' > ] , of drinking > alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for > pleasure ,they > feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the > feelings..., certainly not > a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) > And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me > about dhamma in those > instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have > understood the > value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' > like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of > somebody',' cannabis is > really good, almost all the best of great thinkers > ,philosophers,artists have > used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really > healthy drug', ' > its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob > you off your > rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, > improves friendship!' > etc.. > > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, > how the > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed > from myself. > now its strange to think that i first started looking for > dhamma ( searching for > material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things > happen... > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' > the same will apply > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one > gets the same dhamma > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a > defilement and failing > to understand the true nature of things, and rather > unnecessary. > > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in > 'me' other than > the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. > May be this is the only thing that that can be said to > motivate one( ppl like > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] > in learning and > trying to understand dhamma) > > The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that > the persons will > infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... > > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote > this email,......for > me , writing about me was never easy > > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway > I'll press the send > button > > :o) > > > > rgds. > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick on > 11/10/2000 10:45:32 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > > > Dear gayan, > Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's post > interesting and anything you have to add will be valued. > Dear Shin, > Very good that you encourage others to listen to Dhamma. > Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address from my > mother )and I think she will join the discussion soon. The > whole > earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - it is a > bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. > Robert 1866 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun O and friends of dhamma, Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most with my friend and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the teaching as much as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the reason that I am afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme akusula kamma for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and go against it with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet and polite eventhough they disagree inside, BUT they are aggressive and opinionated people with a BIG concept of "SELF". I know this, because I was in the situation like that before. I really don't like that Conceited ME before, but I can't change it and only accept that it arised due to bad accumulations of Lobha, Dosa and extreme Moha to the truth and the only thing which I can do now is only develop understanding of the dhamma and know that DHAMMA is only Dhamma, not self, impermanent, dukkha. You and Robert are right about faith growing along with the understanding. I saw the process within me. Before meeting dhamma, I didn't have a religion and scorned at anyone who has one and thought that they are just weak and dependent people. But when I heard the dhamma, it moved me instantly. I saw the real me and the accumulations of akusula citta and akusula kamma of the past and how it can be changed through understanding the right path. I was so touched by it that even when anyone say the word "Buddha", it brings me tears instantly ( tears of happiness in meeting the dhamma and how I could get out of the mess). BUT after deeper understanding of dhamma, my faith in the Buddha was not just a holy person with wisdom who can show us the right path, but actually seeing the dhamma for its characteristics and functions and knowing that it is true and real. Gradually as faith increases, I realized my tears of motivation from the teaching stopped, not that I want it to happen, but instead of the tears, the state of mind was much clam and stable according to the increase of faith each time. I didn't do anything but realized that Panna was the one doing its job. All these would never happen to me if I had not understood the Dhamma or even listen to the dhamma. Can't imagine what it would be like if I had not hear it !!!! Therefore I would like to take this opportunity to thank Archan Sujin and all the friends of dhamma in contributing and keeping the wheel of dhamma rolling. Thankyou to everyone in making this site happen. Sincere Aunmodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | | | | Dear robert, | | Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. | Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate | instance.. | And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. | i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent | ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) | ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later | age.. | | with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly | related to the post but it triggered the thought.. | And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you | know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the | religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because | of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance | looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming | ..) how the things have changed.. | and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer | technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the templates called | 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in programming what he uses | is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' ] , of drinking | alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for pleasure ,they | feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the feelings..., certainly not | a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) | And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me about dhamma in those | instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have understood the | value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' | like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of somebody',' cannabis is | really good, almost all the best of great thinkers ,philosophers,artists have | used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really healthy drug', ' | its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob you off your | rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, improves friendship!' | etc.. | | (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, how the | priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed from myself. | now its strange to think that i first started looking for dhamma searching for | material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. | Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things happen... | (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' the same will apply | sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one gets the same dhamma | understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a defilement and failing | to understand the true nature of things, and rather unnecessary. | | lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in 'me' other than | the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. | May be this is the only thing that that can be said to motivate one( ppl like | these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] in learning and | trying to understand dhamma) | | The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that the persons will | infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... | | and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote this email,......for | me , writing about me was never easy | | I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway I'll press the send | button | | :o) | | | | rgds. | | 1867 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 4:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand ANUMODANA ! good saying... Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear gayan, | thanks for your interesting letter, (no 'clear aim' is fine). I | think most of us know what you mean. I was a rabid atheist, | conceited about my 'scientific' outlook; and lived a reckless | life based on a philosphy of 'nothing matters' because we all | die anyway. A different life for sure. Though in some ways not | so much has changed - still plenty of lust, anger and delusion. | Only the outlook has changed so much, but that makes all the | difference. | It seems that we all came to Dhamma through different ways, | methods, and purposes. Our original reasons for interest have | long passed. Perhaps it feels like a huge coincidence that we | got where we are at all. In fact, I believe the real causes for | our interest go back over many lives, and even aeons. We hear | Dhamma because of kamma done in the past- the hearing is kusala | vipaka. We get more interested because of accumulations-also | from the past. Now is the time when we make further | accumulations. | Robert | --- gayank@tpi.techprov.com wrote: > | > | > | > Dear robert, | > | > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant | > and alien.. | > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , | > like a seperate | > instance.. | > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate | > instances.. | > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no | > permanent | > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) | > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and | > another of a later | > age.. | > | > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' | > , not exactly | > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. | > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at | > the dhamma, you | > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding | > the | > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more | > of these because | > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that | > laughing instance | > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but | > somewhat alarming | > ..) how the things have changed.. | > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in | > the computer | > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the | > templates called | > 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in | > programming what he uses | > is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' | > ] , of drinking | > alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for | > pleasure ,they | > feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the | > feelings..., certainly not | > a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) | > And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me | > about dhamma in those | > instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have | > understood the | > value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' | > like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of | > somebody',' cannabis is | > really good, almost all the best of great thinkers | > ,philosophers,artists have | > used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really | > healthy drug', ' | > its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob | > you off your | > rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, | > improves friendship!' | > etc.. | > | > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, | > how the | > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed | > from myself. | > now its strange to think that i first started looking for | > dhamma ( searching for | > material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. | > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things | > happen... | > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' | > the same will apply | > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one | > gets the same dhamma | > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a | > defilement and failing | > to understand the true nature of things, and rather | > unnecessary. | > | > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in | > 'me' other than | > the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. | > May be this is the only thing that that can be said to | > motivate one( ppl like | > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] | > in learning and | > trying to understand dhamma) | > | > The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that | > the persons will | > infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... | > | > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote | > this email,......for | > me , writing about me was never easy | > | > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway | > I'll press the send | > button | > | > :o) | > | > | > | > rgds. | > | > | > | > | 1868 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, Sounds like you are going to have an interesting meeting tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly Ivan's very pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern terminolgy will benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and friends of dhamma, > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most > with my friend > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the > teaching as much > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the > reason that I am > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme > akusula kamma > for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and > go against it > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet > and polite > eventhough they disagree inside, 1869 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We were joking that I have to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. I told him that Archan Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... ha... But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain the dhamma to them, especially he is from Australia since my sister, Jane is living in Sydney as an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand once to twice a month to the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she used to live in New Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes in GOD and askes GOD in everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I find this religion very weird). This is the part where Janet was completely disgusted with the religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted from being a Catholic into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune teller. These two ladies are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps when I think of what the result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always arising). Cross my fingers. with dosa at the moment, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Shin, | Sounds like you are going to have an interesting meeting | tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly Ivan's very | pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern terminolgy will | benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). | robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and | friends of dhamma, | > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most | > with my friend | > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the | > teaching as much | > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the | > reason that I am | > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme | > akusula kamma | > for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and | > go against it | > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet | > and polite | > eventhough they disagree inside, | | | 1870 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 6:58pm Subject: Ch XI 26. dhammadesanabhirati mukhena bhassaramata vangceti. kusala dhammadesanabhirati - 'liking' to do dhamma katha , preachings akusala bhassaramata - 'talkative'-ness with useless thiracchina talks. ( useless talks with a 'dhamma' wrapper ) 27. gananuggahakarana mukhena samganikaramata vangceti. kusala gananuggahakarana - maintaining 'anuggaha' to others. (anuggaha- helping,assisting,progressive company gana- groups etc... egroups? ) akusala samganikaramata - mere 'social'-ness , hidden attachment to company and social activities. when cheated by this the samanas divert from the essencial components of effective living, ie study, samatha & vipassana... 28. punnakamata patirupataya kammaramata vangceti. kusala punnakamata - 'desire' to do good deeds(punna). ( in order to maintain a hiccup-free lifeflux so the internal search for truth can be effectively continued.) akusala kammaramata - desire in building and construction works of temples, ponds, aramas..etc. Some samanas got the hidden tendency to attach to these types of work. And also got the hidden tendency to divert from study of the dhamma,contemplation,dhammadesana,samatha & vipassana. So cheated they develop an unskillful dhamma thinking that its a skill .( punnakamata ) contd. 1871 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 7:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, I was just thinking while lying down in my workplace(have a tonsil inflammation, fever and body aches, which would be the reason why I might probably not be at the foundation tomorrow), not being able to sleep the thought about your friends coming to the foundation ran through my head. It was very perceptive of you to understand that you might arouse unwanted emotions if you did the talking, and hence asking Betty to help you out. With this attitude I think you have little to fear, because everyone else would also be somewhat cautious and understanding. I was also thinking about whether your friend and sister had ever been disillusioned by religion in general. If they were, and you have just said that your friend was, then I felt, that it was one of the issues to tackle.I remember reading somewhere, the Dalai Lama telling his audience not to change their religion, because the tendency would be to 'cling' to the new religion without really understanding it. If one does adopt buddhism, one must do it with understanding and not seek it as a shelter(I may have misunderstood the meaning, because it has been sometime since I read it. In anycase, I trust your panna into accepting or rejecting the view.)Which I think might have happened to little or large extent with your friend, along the way. Besides if anyone happens to cause further confusion,(don't worry about me, even if I'm there, my sore throat would probably hinder me from saying anything) we still have our beloved Ajahn to right any wrong done. I think good will come out off this. And you would have increased your kusala accumulations. Sukin. shinlin wrote: > Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We were joking that I have > to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. I told him that Archan > Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... ha... > But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain the dhamma to them, > especially he is from Australia since my sister, Jane is living in Sydney as > an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand once to twice a month to > the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she used to live in New > Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes in GOD and askes GOD in > everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I find this religion very > weird). This is the part where Janet was completely disgusted with the > religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted from being a Catholic > into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune teller. These two ladies > are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps when I think of what the > result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always arising). Cross my > fingers. > with dosa at the moment, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > | Dear Shin, > | Sounds like you are going to have an interesting meeting > | tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly Ivan's very > | pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern terminolgy will > | benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). > | robert > | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and > | friends of dhamma, > | > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most > | > with my friend > | > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the > | > teaching as much > | > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the > | > reason that I am > | > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme > | > akusula kamma > | > for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and > | > go against it > | > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet > | > and polite > | > eventhough they disagree inside, > | > 1872 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 7:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Gayan, If ever we meet, I'm going to give you a tight hug. Feel honoured, elated, humbled knowing you. Anumodhana, Sukin. protectID wrote: > Dear robert, > > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate > instance.. > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later > age.. > > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming > ..) how the things have changed.. > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the temp