4000 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 7:51pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  You mention that sankhara are anicca and dukkha and that dhammas 
are anatta. Aren't dhammas (excepting nibbana) anicca too?

> 
> > I have no idea if it is the right quotations but the 
interpretation 
> is 
> > not one I've seen in the Tipitaka. 
> 
> I have seen that interpretation in the places I've come across the 
> definition of Right View, both in the Tipitaka and the Tibetan 
Dharma.
> 
> > As I understand it there area 
> > several levels of right understanding, but it has to be of things 
> as 
> > they really are, from the time before the Buddha there were levels 
> of 
> > right understanding of what kusala and akusala was, for example, 
> and 
> > that too was panna, for example the right understanding that 
> > distinguishes samma from miccha samadhi.  Higher levels of panna 
> come 
> > with the development of satipatthana, then the levels of nana that 
> > result from that bhavana, up to the magga nana and culminating 
with 
> > the arahanta level.  
> 
> The way you describe (satipatthana) is only true if you're 
> approaching this from the angle of vipassana-yanika trained in the 
> Four Frames of Reference. In addition to cultivating insight as 
> concerns the the body, feelings, mind, and mental factors, 
> there are also many other ways to skin this cat enumerated in the 
> Tipitaka, as there are numerous other ways found in other schools. 
It 
> is possible to apply vipassana to things other than the meditations 
> found in satipatthana (such as the anatta strategy), or in a 
slightly 
> different way, and have it produce the same effect. 
> 
> Also, I'm not sure if you're suggesting insight alone is sufficient, 
> but if you are, the Buddha advises cultivating both vipassana and 
> samatha for his disciples, so the strategy you mention above is 
> insufficient, by itself, for cultivating all the factors of the 
path, 
> as the Buddha notes in the Asankha Sutta:
> 
> "If a monk would wish, 'May I -- with the ending of mental 
> fermentations -- remain in the fermentation-free release of 
awareness 
> & release of discernment, having directly known & realized them for 
> myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the 
> precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does 
not 
> neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty 
> dwellings."
> 
> Also, the Samadhi Sutta notes that:
> 
> "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena 
> through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of 
> awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained 
internal 
> tranquillity of awareness...and ask him, 'How should the mind be 
> steadied?..."
> 
> What I also think is important to recognize, and from what little 
> I've read the suttas confirm this, is that anicca is only one of 
> three possible arammana the mano-dvaravajjana-citta takes as an 
> object prior to the arising of the lokuttara cittas. I recall at one 
> point disbelieving this was a legetimate strategy, because at that 
> point I was unable to understand the logic behind it. Fortunately, 
my 
> unfounded chauvanism was dispelled when I read what the Pali texts 
> say, and came to see another legitimate (if very different) approach 
> from the one I'd learned.
> 
> By the way, the technique you mention (Satipatthana) isn't formally 
> taught in Vajrayana, where they teach the union of samatha & 
> vipassana exclusively as a strategy, with the object of 
investigation 
> being emptiness. I listed some meditations on emptiness yesterday 
> that come from the Visuddhimagga.
> 
> And I agree with you that there are many levels of understanding of 
> Right View, and there are many lokiya aspects of Right View as well, 
> beginning with the non-denying of kamma and vipaka, up to accepting, 
> intellectually, that sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that all 
> dhammas are anatta. But as is noted in the texts, there is a 
> literally a world of difference between understanding this 
> intellectually and directly knowing via lokuttara panna. As you have 
> noted elsewhere, lokiya Right View is incapable of destroying the 
> samyojanas.
> 
> > I think we must be very careful to distinguish the kinds 
> > of citta involved otherwise there could be very great confusion 
> that 
> > leads to wrong understanding even when one is supposed to read the 
> > texts!  It makes me realize the dangers of translation
> 
> There are certainly dangers in translation. But I think the greatest 
> danger tends to come about from our own misunderstandings of 
> essential doctrines. Ditthupadana is not so easy to abandon!
> 
> I also do not agree that it is necessary to know the intricacies of 
> Abhidharma's classifications to know Right View. Very few historical 
> masters I know of have needed this. Studying Abhidhamma, as I see 
it, 
> is just another legitimate way to get to an understanding of 
> realities, and I particularly like the emphasis on paramattha 
> dhammas. However, there are many ways realities may be understood, 
> and the paramattha dhamma strategy is simply one of many, others 
> being contemplating emptiness, dependent origination, etc.
> 
> So I do not see Abhidhamma as an necesarry aspect of the path for 
> everyone. What I think is truly necessary to rightly understand is 
> that all sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that all dhammas are 
> anatta, in whatever way that understanding is brought about, either 
> through teachings on emptiness (and anatta--same thing) or dependent 
> origination, or on anicca, or on dukkha. I believe if these 
teachings 
> re properly understood then the Abhidhamma will act as a support to 
> confirm our understanding. However, I do not think knowing which 
> cittas fire at which moments is necessarily as helpful as 
> contemplating teachings on things like paramattha dhammas and 
sunnata 
> and anatta, for example.
> 
> Anyway, I would also like to respond to your longer post from the 
> yesterday, but I have some points I would like to research first. I 
> truly appreciate your thorough reply to my earlier post. This is  
> very kusala stuff for me. This type of epistolary discussion one of 
> the most powerful practices I have found in my own life, because it 
> forces me to really consider and research the points under 
> discussion, and serves to greatly aid my own understanding. So I 
> thank you (and everyone else here) for your kindness in providing me 
> this unparalleled opportunity to cultivate yoniso manasikara!

 
4001 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  > You mention that sankhara are anicca and dukkha and that dhammas 
> are anatta. Aren't dhammas (excepting nibbana) anicca too?


Can the three lakkhana be separated?  Can there be the one without the 
other two describing the same object?

 
4002 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:20pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> You mention that sankhara are anicca and dukkha and that dhammas 
> are anatta. Aren't dhammas (excepting nibbana) anicca too?


Dear Dan, 

I'm sorry I just realized you were asking Erik!!!  (you got his 
handle wrong, by the way)

Good to hear from you,

Amara

 
4003 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Num, 

If I were religious I'd say you were a godsend to this
list.  Always a pleasure, Sir.

mike


 
4004 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Ta Mok is NOT a buddha. He is a human being and he can have 10 degrees in
Dhamma study. So what?

Yes, I have compassion for the perpetrators of crimes against humanity. Yes,
I know he has dukkha like any of us. He is heir to his own karma and that is
the simple fact here.

I do not think Ta Mok falls into the bodhisatta category, either, at least
from my understanding of the requirements, nor would he come close to being
Arahatta.

And just so we are clear:

"Rather than simply identifying the bodhisattva-yaana with the various
Mahaayaana schools and the `sraavaka-yaana with the numerous Hiinayaana
schools (as does the old model, which illustrates the ideas put forth by
Naagaarjuna, Asa^nga, and Candrakiirti), the revised theoretical model may
more accurately portray the differences that exist between the two yaanas by
referring to Mahaayaana Buddhism as a vehicle in which the bodhisattva ideal
is more universally applied, and to Theravaada Buddhism as a vehicle in
which the bodhisattva ideal is reserved for and appropriated by certain
exceptional people."

Samuels, Jeffrey, "The Bodhisattva Ideal In TheravaadaBuddhist Theory And
Practice: A Re-evaluation Of The Bodhisattva-`Sraavaka Opposition"
Philosophy East and West, Volume 47, Number 3, July 1997, P.399-415
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha123.htm

NOTES:

I do not accept the use of "Hinayana" as a properly used term... just for
the record. See: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha140.htm It would be most
wise for everyone here to do so!

"Though the possibility for the existence of other future buddhas beside
Metteyya is mentioned only briefly in the Paali canon, in other
post-canonical Theravaadin texts, there are more specific references to
future bodhisattvas and buddhas. For instance, in the
Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa, the Dasabodhisattaddesa, and in one recension of
the Anaagatava.msa Desanaa, the nine bodhisattvas who will follow Maitreya
are mentioned. Moreover, in one recension of the Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa,
we even find the places of residence of seven of the ten bodhisattvas:
Metteyya, Raama, Pasena, and Vibhuuti are presently residing in Tu.sita
heaven and Subhuuti, Naalaagiri, and Paarileyya are now in Taavati.msa
heaven. Thus, it appears that the Theravaadin tradition acknowledges certain
"celestial" bodhisattvas who are currently residing in various heavenly
realms and not that the only recognized bodhisattva in Theravaada Buddhism
is Maitreya (Edward Conze, Thirty Years of Buddhist Studies: Selected Essays
by Edward Conze [Oxford: Bruno Cassirer, 1967], p. 38).

Given the above, and given that I do not see all this as merely "revised
theoretical modeling", it would be most prudent to know what constitutes the
definition of a "buddha" and for that matter a pacceka-buddha. And
concerning the bodhisatta/arahatta "issue" --- I have no issue with it at
all.

I point out the above quotes and references and notes to show that, again,
their is only one Sasana, there is only one "yana" and not to be trite or
simplistic, but to use as practical example as possible, the Dhamma is like
a pasta. It comes in various shapes. It can be eaten hot, cold, with sauces,
as a salad, or plain with olive oil, butter, salt and pepper, and a
sprinkling of herbs. There is still just the pasta! If I were to make pasta,
I would use the same ingredients but when put through the pasta machine, I
can present it as spaghetti, rigatoni, ziti. But is the pasta there?

Ta Mok does not, in my view, come close to any pacceka-bodhi, either.

And there is no rationalizing that he has "buddha-nature". That is hardly
the issue.

The Blessed One taught the dangers of speculation.

The Blessed One insisted on practice.

It would be well to reflect on here in this community if speculation or
practice is what is taking place.

Clinging to views is miccha ditthi, no? Let's practice more before being so
insistent. Has speculation been a cause for the propagation of the Sasana?
Has any of this speculation brought release, not mere relief from dukkha?

We do not need to prove the Dhamma --- we need to practice like there was
less than 5 minutes left to live. And given the current state of affairs on
this planet, that time may be closer than some us realize, so I entreat
everyone to attend to the Blessed One's Dhamma and not speculating how many
devas can dance on the tip of a 32 gauge acupuncture needle!

May this find everyone well.

Metta cittena,

Bhante D.

 
4005 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> In the Tipitaka, there is only one way to develop the
> right understanding which eventually eradicates
> defilements. This is by understanding paramattha
> dhammas(realities) as they appear at the present
> moment as anatta (not self).

Interesting. I have never seen anything to indicate this is the only 
way. Also, I have never heard any teacher of Theravada or any system 
say that we must come understand patahattha dhammas in only this way, 
that "this alone is true, all other ways are false." 

> Vipassana (development of
> this right understanding) is not applied to anything.
> There is no self to apply, only realities to be
> unerstood. This is also the development of
> satipatthana, the development of right awareness.

In the sense I use it, it can be applied to objects of negation. That 
act of negating impossible modes of existence (i.e. "true existence") 
is another proven way to do exactly what you say here. 

> When we talk about anatta, anicca, dukkha, dependent
> origination, kamma or vipaka, we're talking about the
> nature of the realities appearing at this moment.

At the most basic level, this is in perfect accord with my 
understanding.

> Thinking about how everything is anatta or anicca has
> nothing to do with understanding the characteristic of
> seeing or hearing as they appear now.

I submit that it does, for those properly trained in this technique. 
If you do not accept at least this possibility, if you are not open 
to accepting that others may also have thoroughly tested systems that 
do bring about lokuttara sammaditthi by the ways I've described, then 
mutual understanding will be very difficult to achieve, I think. I am 
willing to work with textual citations from the Tipitaka and attempt 
to draw out its meanings--which as you must recall for me, is in 
someone else's "language." This is tough enough, and I do not feel I 
can communicate effectively if there are prejudices of the sort that 
hold, absent any firm evidence, that there is only "one" way to go 
about solving the problem or more specifically, that because others 
have learned this a diifferent way they cannot possibly be correct. 
This is what I am picking up from this discussion in some places. If 
this is not a correct intepretation of the patches of light and dark 
impinging on my eye-sense, then please feel free to correct my 
misunderstanding. :)

> Understanding
> anatta is not different from understanding paramatha
> dhammas as far as the Tipitaka is concerned and this
> MAY have been a distinction I found when looking at
> the Tibetan teachings.

If this is so then I am certain you have not had a proper teaching in 
this system. Without this there is no valid basis of knowing if the 
insight brought about through the emptiness strategy is any different 
from the understanding brought about by the paramattha dhamma 
strategy. The point of both strategies is to know realities as they 
are. By entering via the emptiness gateway, all facets of the Dharma 
should become clear. If one approaches from parmattha dhamma angle, 
and gains insight this way, one should have eradicated all doubt 
about how this also works from the perspective I mention. In my 
formulation, insight must eradicate doubt, clarify confusion, and 
dispel ignorance in exactly this way; true insight should resolve all 
facets of the Dharma of all systems into a state of non-
contradiction. If it does not perform at least this function, then I 
would not accept it as genuine insight.

> Finally, Erik, you quote the passages from the Vism.
> on 'Discerning Formations as Void'. May I stress that
> this is not a series of strategies but an explanation
> of realities as not self which can be known at this
> moment. 

Its existence in the spoken Dharma means it is a strategy by my 
definition. To see any teaching as anything more than a strategy 
would be to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of 
the textual or spoken Dharma, because as I noted before this is to 
confuse the labels with what's being pointed at. This directly 
contradicts the advice of the Four Relianecs, to rely on the "inner 
meaning" of the Dharma, and not the words, as well as the advice of 
the Sutta of the simile of the raft (the sutta the on reading it was 
what brought me into the Dharma).

Understanding paramattha dhammas is one way of eradicating this 
tendency to reify the words of the Dharma, and it makes perfect sense 
to me how meditating on paramattha dhammas will yeild this result, 
because I see it as no different from the way it works with the 
meditations I've been trained in. 
 
> There are other points I would like to comment on, but
> I'll leave it here, stressing that anattaness or
> voidness is not something to be contemplated on,

So long as you say that this is true solely in the context of your 
own practice, I cannot disagree. When you extend this to another's 
practice, particularly if you lack fluency in that system, then this 
must be, by definition, an opinion based on conjecture. It cannot be 
otherwise.

> Please don't take any of our comments as
> 'attacks'...we're all delighted to have you with
> us..it's unusual to meet someone who is so obviously
> well-read and sincerely interested in the abhidhamma.

I hope you believe me whan I say that I have not read a single thing 
here I could ever see as a personal attack, so there is nothing for 
you to worry about. I also hope you do not think I am here with any 
hidden agenda, or for any other reason than to learn, from the 
perspective of proponents of the Tipitika, its inner meaning. So you 
must understand again how deeply grateful I am to have been given 
this incredible opportunity. And also, please be aware, this type 
of "practice" (debate) is a central aspect of my own system's 
approach, so I consider this very kusala as I've mentioned elsewhere.

Hopefully I'll be able in the not-too-distant future to communicate 
my own understanding in your preferred language, such that no 
confusion arises about my intended meaning, but in the meanwhile I 
would find it more helpful if it is at least possible for you and 
others to entertain the possibility that others may have discovered 
something just as effective as your own practice, and cut me a little 
slack. On that note I feel it's probably time for me to shut up and 
begin really learning the Tipitika's perspective.

 
4006 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" 
 wrote:
> Ta Mok is NOT a buddha. He is a human being and he can have 10 
degrees in
> Dhamma study. So what?

Whoa! Did you somehow read that I said Ta Mok is a Buddha? I had to 
go back and re-read my original quote, because I know I didn't imply 
this. "As far as I know (since I lack the capacity to judge another's 
mentality) he's a Buddha"

This to me is simply stating a truth without any speculation 
whatsoever. Ta Mok could very well be a Buddha. This is simply 
admitting I lack the capacity to judge whether he is or he isn't, 
since I am not a Buddha. In the absence of certain knoedge I have 
found it far more helpful to imagine everyone is a Buddha rather than 
making assumptions about another's mentality. This is just another 
nice strategy for cultivating kusala I have been taught. If it 
doesn't work for you, then no need to waste time with it.

 
4007 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" 

> And just so we are clear:
> 
> "Rather than simply identifying the bodhisattva-yaana with the 
various
> Mahaayaana schools and the `sraavaka-yaana with the numerous 
Hiinayaana
> schools (as does the old model, which illustrates the ideas put 
forth by
> Naagaarjuna, Asa^nga, and Candrakiirti), the revised theoretical 
model may
> more accurately portray the differences that exist between the two 
yaanas by
> referring to Mahaayaana Buddhism as a vehicle in which the 
bodhisattva ideal
> is more universally applied, and to Theravaada Buddhism as a 
vehicle in
> which the bodhisattva ideal is reserved for and appropriated by 
certain
> exceptional people."
> 
> Samuels, Jeffrey, "The Bodhisattva Ideal In TheravaadaBuddhist 
Theory And
> Practice: A Re-evaluation Of The Bodhisattva-`Sraavaka Opposition"
> Philosophy East and West, Volume 47, Number 3, July 1997, P.399-415
> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha123.htm

This perfectly matches the way I see all of this. I also think I 
recall that King Rama IV not only founded the Thammayut order but 
also took the Bodhisattva vows and vowed to attain Buddhahood for the 
sake of all sentient beings.

 
4008 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

> Have a look at this quote from Gunaratana Thera. I don't have
> time to make it clearer. 

I have no choice but to accept that I was mistaken on this point. 
Just so you know, I have had this debate before, and no one has ever 
been able to provide me any conclusive evidence as you have just 
done. So I greatly thank you for clarifying this for me, because I 
can now see another entirely legitimate way of going about things.

 
4009 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Dear Erik

You are definetly prolific and taking the clue about languages and 
communication I disclose to you that my 'preferred language' is the one that 
emerges from the warm heart of wisdom: experience.

You wrote:

"Hopefully I'll be able in the not-too-distant future to communicate
my own understanding in your preferred language, such that no
confusion arises about my intended meaning, but in the meanwhile I
would find it more helpful if it is at least possible for you and
others to entertain the possibility that others may have discovered
something just as effective as your own practice, and cut me a little
slack. On that note I feel it's probably time for me to shut up and
begin really learning the Tipitika's perspective."

Before you 'shut up' and not proponing any accademic discussion but a 
sharing, please could you tell me what is your OWN language; I mean mine for 
example is that of effective knowledge from experience.
Apart your evident delight in accademic discussions, which one is your 
actual inner language considering your buddhist practice, the actual 
language of your mind and your heart when you are not translating it in 
erudition, let's in the awareness of daily life?
I am not merely provocative, I am actually interested in sharing with you.
Please not suttas or intellectual approach; on this side I reckon that you 
are already fluent.
Let's try a different approach - if you agree naturally.

Metta
Cybele




4010 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 0:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Contextual reply below:

----- Original Message -----
From: <Erik>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 8:25 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View


> --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"
>  wrote:
> > Ta Mok is NOT a buddha. He is a human being and he can have 10
> degrees in
> > Dhamma study. So what?
>
> Whoa! Did you somehow read that I said Ta Mok is a Buddha?

I think the question is foolish.

> I had to
> go back and re-read my original quote,

And what does that tell you?

> because I know I didn't imply
> this. "As far as I know (since I lack the capacity to judge another's
> mentality) he's a Buddha"
>

It appears to me there is an assumption on your part whether you admit it or
not.

As far as I am concerned you do not know.

> This to me is simply stating a truth without any speculation
> whatsoever.

Oh really? Let me point this out in your words: "(since I lack the capacity
to judge another's mentality)" As far as you know? What do you know?

Ta Mok could very well be a Buddha?

Erik, that is silliness. It is frivolous and speculative. I hold no position
but I am not going to assuage what happened to a whole nation of people,
either.

Beware of rationalizing.

> This is simply
> admitting I lack the capacity to judge whether he is or he isn't,

Then stop asserting things you really do not know from experience and
practice. While you have the knowledge, do you have the "cushion time"?

> since I am not a Buddha.

But as far as you might know you could be(come) one?

> In the absence of certain knoedge I have
> found it far more helpful to imagine everyone is a Buddha rather than
> making assumptions about another's mentality.

Absence of certain knowledge. Imagining. Without certain knowledge and by
imagining, you make assumptions.

> This is just another
> nice strategy for cultivating kusala I have been taught.

Sweetheart, Dhamma is not a "strategy" and neither is practice.

Strategy, as "far as I know" is: An elaborate and systematic plan of action
or the branch of military science dealing with military command and the
planning and conduct of a war.

> If it
> doesn't work for you, then no need to waste time with it.
>
I am not so sure it would work for anyone, including yourself.
>
I am only sure of one thing: practice. And the certainty is in the doing not
the thinking about it.

Metta,

Bhante D.

 
4011 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/15/01 3:01:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> Bonne nuit, Num!
> 
> Faites de beaux reves!
> 
> A.
> 
===============================
       An interesting difference between French and English idiom: In English 
it is "Have good dreams", and in French it is "Make good dreams". From the 
Buddhist perspective, there is something valid and something invalid in each 
formulation, I think. Dreams are, indeed, fabricated. On the other hand, we 
have only small control over over our dreams.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

4012 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 1:58am
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  Nibbana is described as with anatta but not dukkha nor anicca...

> 
> > You mention that sankhara are anicca and dukkha and that dhammas 
> > are anatta. Aren't dhammas (excepting nibbana) anicca too?
> 
> 
> Can the three lakkhana be separated?  Can there be the one without 
the 
> other two describing the same object?

 
4013 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 1:58am
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" 
 wrote:

> > Whoa! Did you somehow read that I said Ta Mok is a Buddha?
> 
> I think the question is foolish.
>
> > I had to
> > go back and re-read my original quote,
> 
> And what does that tell you?

It tells me that I wish to understand how what I said may have led 
you to construe a meaning which was never intended, so that I may 
learn to express myself more skillfuly next time.

> > because I know I didn't imply
> > this. "As far as I know (since I lack the capacity to judge 
another's
> > mentality) he's a Buddha"
> >
> It appears to me there is an assumption on your part whether you 
admit it or
> not.

What assumptions do you see, specifically? That in the absence of 
certain knowledge about another's mentality I have found it far more 
conducive to my own happiness to see all beings as possible Buddhas, 
rather than as deluded fools? If you see any assumptions in this then 
we have a very different understanding of the term. By my definition 
there is no assumption anywhere in what I said. It is a statement of 
concrete fact arising out of direct experience that this strategy has 
been effective at increasing kusala and decreasing akusala for me.

> As far as I am concerned you do not know.

Which I have fully admitted. So I am not exactly sure what you're 
responding to here, since you seem to agree with my claim that I lack 
the capacity to judge if another being is a Buddha or not.
 
> > This to me is simply stating a truth without any speculation
> > whatsoever.
> 
> Oh really? Let me point this out in your words: "(since I lack the 
capacity
> to judge another's mentality)" As far as you know? What do you know?
> 
> Ta Mok could very well be a Buddha?

Ta Mok could very well be a demon too as far as I know. Again, to 
clarify (I hope I am more effectively communicating my meaning to you 
now), the point is not only that I do not know one way or another, 
but without being a Buddha myself I can't possibly know. This is one 
way of always recalling the importance of having a "pramana," 
or "valid cognition," about something. For this reason I would prefer 
not to speculate on another's mentality, and act as if anyone I meet 
may well be a Buddha, though you must understand this sentiment does 
not extend to condoning what appears to be unskillful behavior. I see 
a huge difference between the two, if this is the source of your 
present confusion.

> Erik, that is silliness. It is frivolous and speculative. I hold no 
position
> but I am not going to assuage what happened to a whole nation of 
people,
> either.

I am curious to understand how honestly admitting "I do not know" is 
in the least bit frivolous or speculative. To me it represents a very 
concrete fact rooted in direct experience. To my understanding this 
attitude is perfectly in line with the Buddha's teachings.

> Then stop asserting things you really do not know from experience 
and
> practice. While you have the knowledge, do you have the "cushion 
time"?

Would you please be kind enough to point out where I have asserted 
things I do not know from experience? I would like to be made aware 
of any possible speculations I may have inadvertently engaged in, so 
that I may act more skillfully the next time.

> > since I am not a Buddha.
> 
> But as far as you might know you could be(come) one?

I believe every collection of aggregates labeled "sentient being" has 
the potential of becoming a Buddha.

> > In the absence of certain knoedge I have
> > found it far more helpful to imagine everyone is a Buddha rather 
than
> > making assumptions about another's mentality.
> 
> Absence of certain knowledge. Imagining. Without certain knowledge 
and by
> imagining, you make assumptions.

Again, could you please point out the assumptions you keep insisting 
I'm making? I have seen nothing so far that would indicate the any 
speculation on my part. I have repeatedly said that I lack definitive 
knowledge one way or another about another's mentality. I have also 
said that in the absence of definitive knowledge, I have found it 
more helpful, in my own experience, to act as if everyone I encounter 
may be a holy being, more specifically a Buddha.

Then again, perhaps what is very obvious to me is not so obvious to 
your present understanding. And it appears this sort of practice is 
unsuitable for you anyway, given the appearance of aversion you have 
expressed in relation to it, by suggesting it may not work for 
anyone. I will suggest that that statement is speculation of the very 
highest degree, particularly as it is speculation as regards a key 
strategy set out in a fully-elaborated path, in this case "Mahayana" 
and tantra.

> > This is just another
> > nice strategy for cultivating kusala I have been taught.
> 
> Sweetheart, Dhamma is not a "strategy" and neither is practice.
> 
> Strategy, as "far as I know" is: An elaborate and systematic plan 
of action
> or the branch of military science dealing with military command and 
the
> planning and conduct of a war.

Given the sole aim of the Buddhadharma is to completely defeat the 
armies of Mara, I believe using the word "strategy" is entirely 
appropriate in this context. Speaking of which, I really like Sun 
Tzu's quote from "The Art of War.": "Many can see the individual 
tactics necessary to succeed, but rare is the one who can see the 
strategy out of which total victory is evolved."

To that end I'll quote Thanissaro Bikkhu on this idea: 

"To avoid the suffering implicit in questions of "self" and "other," 
[the Buddha] offered an alternative way of dividing up experience: 
the four Noble Truths of stress, its cause, its cessation, and the 
path to its cessation. Rather than viewing these truths as pertaining 
to self or other, he said, one should recognize them simply for what 
they are, in and of themselves, as they are directly experienced, and 
then perform the duty appropriate to each. Stress should be 
comprehended, its cause abandoned, its cessation realized, and the 
path to its cessation developed. These duties form the context in 
which the anatta doctrine is best understood. If you develop the path 
of virtue, concentration, and discernment to a state of calm well-
being and use that calm state to look at experience in terms of the 
Noble Truths, the questions that occur to the mind are not "Is there 
a self? What is my self?" but rather "Am I suffering stress because 
I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? Is it really me, myself, 
or mine? If it's stressful but not really me or mine, why hold on?" 
These last questions merit straightforward answers, as they then help 
you to comprehend stress and to chip away at the attachment and 
clinging -- the residual sense of self-identification -- that cause 
it, until ultimately all traces of self-identification are gone and 
all that's left is limitless freedom. 

"In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but 
a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its 
cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, 
questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the 
experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern 
about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?"

> > If it
> > doesn't work for you, then no need to waste time with it.
> >
> I am not so sure it would work for anyone, including yourself.

It is certainly your prerogative to hold to any views you wish. So 
you know, my teachers have taught that this practice is an 
indispensible aspect of the path I'm currently traversing. I know 
whose opinions on these matters I choose to listen to, because 
everything else they've taught me has proven, in my own experience, 
to be more dead-on than I could have ever imagined.

> I am only sure of one thing: practice. And the certainty is in the 
doing not
> the thinking about it.

And of course, as I have mentioned, the practice of dak-nang ("pure 
view") is to do exactly as I've described above--to strive to see all 
beings as Buddhas, and all experience as the enlightened play of the 
Buddhas. This is the attitude that all tantric practitioners are 
encouraged to cultivate at all times. It is also a very common 
strategy found in all "Mahayana" systems I know of, and is entirely 
consistent with the notions found in the Prajanaparamita on how those 
practicing the Bodhisattva path have to train their minds to arrive 
at the perfection of wisdom. Given this, I think it would be more 
helpful to begin with a clearer understanding the points under 
discussion before making unwarranted assumptions about another's 
preferred practice of the Buddhadharma.

 
4014 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Contextual reply below:

----- Original Message -----
From: <Erik>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 11:28 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View


> --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"
>  wrote:
>
> > > Whoa! Did you somehow read that I said Ta Mok is a Buddha?
> >
> > I think the question is foolish.
> >
> > > I had to
> > > go back and re-read my original quote,
> >
> > And what does that tell you?
>
> It tells me that I wish to understand how what I said may have led
> you to construe a meaning which was never intended, so that I may
> learn to express myself more skillfuly next time.
>
It is good to want to understand what you expressed that may have lead to my
construing a meaning which was never intended.

1. I did not construe nor misconstrue anything.
2. Be careful in this medium. Words written are forensic --- more so than
speech.

> > > because I know I didn't imply
> > > this. "As far as I know (since I lack the capacity to judge
> another's
> > > mentality) he's a Buddha"
> > >
> > It appears to me there is an assumption on your part whether you
> admit it or
> > not.
>
> What assumptions do you see, specifically? That in the absence of
> certain knowledge about another's mentality I have found it far more
> conducive to my own happiness to see all beings as possible Buddhas,
> rather than as deluded fools? If you see any assumptions in this then
> we have a very different understanding of the term.

Imagine as you like. I am not judging Ta Mok the person but I will tell you
that his actions are another story altogether.

> By my definition
> there is no assumption anywhere in what I said.

I respect your statement, but it is not about "my" definition or "your"
definition, it is about logic. And that logic is not merely Aristotelian
logic.

> It is a statement of
> concrete fact

Concrete fact? Oh?

> arising out of direct experience that this strategy has
> been effective at increasing kusala and decreasing akusala for me.
>
I am not asking about what is kusala and akusala for you, nor did I before.

> > As far as I am concerned you do not know.
>
> Which I have fully admitted.

You admitted it, yes, but then continued as it appears from this end, that
you attempted to reach a conclusion by some logic of your own.

> So I am not exactly sure what you're
> responding to here,

I responded to this Ta Mok stuff.

> since you seem to agree with my claim that I lack
> the capacity to judge if another being is a Buddha or not.
>
Please don't twist words here. I am not interested in tautologies. I am not
a tautologist.

> > > This to me is simply stating a truth without any speculation
> > > whatsoever.
> >
> > Oh really? Let me point this out in your words: "(since I lack the
> capacity
> > to judge another's mentality)" As far as you know? What do you know?
> >
> > Ta Mok could very well be a Buddha?
>
> Ta Mok could very well be a demon too as far as I know.

Ta Mok could be all kinds of things. The point is that the criteria for a
Living Buddha are clear.

> Again, to
> clarify (I hope I am more effectively communicating my meaning to you
> now), the point is not only that I do not know one way or another,

Then why this long epistle from you,  young sir?

> but without being a Buddha myself I can't possibly know. This is one
> way of always recalling the importance of having a "pramana,"
> or "valid cognition," about something.

Nice words. I prefer silence, solitude, and practice.

> For this reason I would prefer
> not to speculate on another's mentality, and act as if anyone I meet
> may well be a Buddha, though you must understand this sentiment does
> not extend to condoning what appears to be unskillful behavior.

What "appears" to be unskillful behavior? Did Ta Mok's behavior appear
skilled? My good man, go to Cambodia. Talk to the Cambodian people. The
whole nation of people needs, as many a professional have unabashedly
stated: psychiatric therapy.

> I see
> a huge difference between the two, if this is the source of your
> present confusion.
>
> > Erik, that is silliness. It is frivolous and speculative. I hold no
> position
> > but I am not going to assuage what happened to a whole nation of
> people,
> > either.
>
> I am curious to understand how honestly admitting "I do not know" is
> in the least bit frivolous or speculative.

Then perhaps you need to change your "strategy"?

> To me it represents a very
> concrete fact rooted in direct experience.

Who is the "me"? What is "concrete"?

> To my understanding this
> attitude is perfectly in line with the Buddha's teachings.
>
What you appear to call "concrete fact" and "direct experience" are now
expressed as "attitude"?

> > Then stop asserting things you really do not know from experience
> and
> > practice. While you have the knowledge, do you have the "cushion
> time"?
>
> Would you please be kind enough to point out where I have asserted
> things I do not know from experience?

Re-read your original post. Look at your imaginings.

> I would like to be made aware
> of any possible speculations I may have inadvertently engaged in, so
> that I may act more skillfully the next time.
>
I cannot make you aware. You must make yourself aware.

> > > since I am not a Buddha.
> >
> > But as far as you might know you could be(come) one?
>
> I believe every collection of aggregates labeled "sentient being" has
> the potential of becoming a Buddha.
>
I am not interested in "belief". It is always coupled with "doubt".

> > > In the absence of certain [knowledge] I have
> > > found it far more helpful to imagine everyone is a Buddha rather
> than
> > > making assumptions about another's mentality.
> >
> > Absence of certain knowledge. Imagining. Without certain knowledge
> and by
> > imagining, you make assumptions.
>
> Again, could you please point out the assumptions you keep insisting
> I'm making?

I already did that.

> I have seen nothing so far that would indicate the any
> speculation on my part.

What was your original post about Ta Mok then?

> I have repeatedly said that I lack definitive
> knowledge one way or another about another's mentality.

But then you vacillated there, and suddenly return with "concrete fact" and
"direct experience" . Sorry, I am not able to follow your thinking.

> I have also
> said that in the absence of definitive knowledge, I have found it
> more helpful, in my own experience, to act as if everyone I encounter
> may be a holy being, more specifically a Buddha.
>
Ah... here is the part of the problem. All life is precious. Every sentient
being is precious. Don't act as "if" they are holy... they are holy. Ta Mok
did terrible things but his life is as precious as those he destroyed.
Understand?

Before you or I act more specifically as if others may be a buddha, then
perhaps you and I need to act like a buddha first. Where does genuine
compassion begin?

> Then again, perhaps what is very obvious to me is not so obvious to
> your present understanding.

Perhaps the above statement is a bit risky on your part? But that is
alright. I do not expect you to have any iota of a modcum of that
understanding.

> And it appears this sort of practice is
> unsuitable for you anyway, given the appearance of aversion you have
> expressed in relation to it, by suggesting it may not work for
> anyone.

I see the above as twisting words with politeness and in debate. You are the
owner of your own perceptions. It is not that I have aversion or attachment
at all in this case. But what we do have is the clear Teachings of the
Blessed One, so what really is your point in all this?

> I will suggest that that statement is speculation of the very
> highest degree,

I see your suggestion as error. This is about practice my dear.

> particularly as it is speculation as regards a key
> strategy set out in a fully-elaborated path, in this case "Mahayana"
> and tantra.
> I have been taught.

Spare me the sectarian jargon, please. It will not work.

> >
> > Sweetheart, Dhamma is not a "strategy" and neither is practice.
> >
> > Strategy, as "far as I know" is: An elaborate and systematic plan
> of action
> > or the branch of military science dealing with military command and
> the
> > planning and conduct of a war.
>
> Given the sole aim of the Buddhadharma is to completely defeat the
> armies of Mara, I believe using the word "strategy" is entirely
> appropriate in this context.

Well, I do not. Read: Sayadaw U Pandita's *In This Very Life* and you will
know how to deal well with the 10 Armies of Mara. My dear, you will need
more than a strategy. You need a scientific method not based on the
theoretical but facts. Understand?

>Speaking of which, I really like Sun
> Tzu's quote from "The Art of War.": "Many can see the individual
> tactics necessary to succeed, but rare is the one who can see the
> strategy out of which total victory is evolved."
>
With the 10 Armies of Mara, we do not have the time to evolve total victory.
Merciless compassion must be applied immediately. Total liberation from
kilesas is attainable at any time said the Blessed One. Either you know this
or you do not.

So, what are you going to do know that this has been expressed to you?

r other, he said, one should recognize them simply for what
> they are, in and of themselves, as they are directly experienced, and
> then perform the duty appropriate to each. Stress should be
> comprehended, its cause abandoned, its cessation realized, and the
> path to its cessation developed.

Yes, the Four Noble Truths are clear.

>These duties form the context in
> which the anatta doctrine is best understood. If you develop the path
> of virtue, concentration, and discernment to a state of calm well-
> being and use that calm state to look at experience in terms of the
> Noble Truths, the questions that occur to the mind are not "Is there
> a self? What is my self?" but rather "Am I suffering stress because
> I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? Is it really me, myself,
> or mine? If it's stressful but not really me or mine, why hold on?"
> These last questions merit straightforward answers, as they then help
> you to comprehend stress and to chip away at the attachment and
> clinging -- the residual sense of self-identification -- that cause
> it, until ultimately all traces of self-identification are gone and
> all that's left is limitless freedom.
>
The why imagine about buddhas and demons?

> doctrine of no-self, but
> a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its
> cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point,
> questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the
> experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern
> about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?"
>
Yes.

> > > If it
> > > doesn't work for you, then no need to waste time with it.
> > >

It is not about what works for "me". Understand?

>yurself.
>
> It is certainly your prerogative to hold to any views you wish. So
> you know, my teachers have taught that this practice is an
> [indispensable] aspect of the path I'm currently traversing. I know
> whose opinions on these matters I choose to listen to, because
> everything else they've taught me has proven, in my own experience,
> to be more dead-on than I could have ever imagined.
>
Good. Keep practicing. Just practice.

e. And the certainty is in the
> doing not
> > the thinking about it.
>

f course, as I have mentioned, the practice of dak-nang ("pure
> view") is to do exactly as I've described above--to strive to see all
> beings as Buddhas, and all experience as the enlightened play of the
> Buddhas. This is the attitude that all tantric practitioners are
> encouraged to cultivate at all times.

I have realized this some time ago.

> It is also a very common
> strategy found in all "Mahayana" systems I know of, and is entirely
> consistent with the notions found in the Prajanaparamita on how those
> practicing the Bodhisattva path have to train their minds to arrive
> at the perfection of wisdom. Given this, I think it would be more
> helpful to begin with a clearer understanding the points under
> discussion before making unwarranted assumptions about another's
> preferred practice of the Buddhadharma.

I did not make assumptions about anyone's preferred practice of the
Buddhadhamma. What I was pointing to are what you expressed as
imaginings --- which I did not read as "visualizations".

Let's be more careful with words then?
>

And please wait sometime before you respond. Take this to practice for a
time.

I am not here to compete with anyone or defeat anyone. I am here to learn
but at the same time, what I have learned and practiced, I would share
openly.

I do not expect that it is always comfortable, either.

With Loving Deep Metta,

Bhante D.


 
4015 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 0:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hi, Robert (and Erik) -

> Textual evidence that there can
> be arahats lacking mundane jhana is provided by the Susima Sutta
> (S.ii, 199-23) together with is commentaries. When the monks in
> the sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing
> supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they reply:
> "We are liberated by wisdom" (pannavimutta kho mayam). The
> commentary glosses this reply thus: "We are contemplatives,
> dry-insight meditators, liberated by wisdom alone" (Mayam
> nijjhanaka sukkhavipassaka pannamatten'eva vimutta ti,
> SA.ii,117). The commentary also states that the Buddha gave his
> long disquisition on insight in the sutta "to show the arising
> of knowledge even without concentration" (vina pi samadhimevam
> nanuppattidassanattham, SA.ii,117). The subcommentary
> establishes the point by explaining "even without concentration"
> to mean "even without concentration previously accomplished
> reaching the mark of serenity" (samathalakkhanappattam
> purimasiddhamvina pi samadhin ti), adding that this is said in
> reference to one who makes insight his vehicle (ST.ii,125).
> >>>>endquote
> 
==================================
       I don't think the matter is 100% clear. You wrote << When the monks in
the sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing
supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they reply:
"We are liberated by wisdom" (pannavimutta kho mayam). >> I understand 
"immaterial attainments" to refer to the 4 higher absorptions. On the basis 
of that understanding, being liberated by wisdom alone might not rule out 
attaining the first four absorptions. I do seem to recall that there are 
places in the sutta pitaka where the Buddha identifies "Right Concentration" 
with the attaining of the first four jhanas. Thus, what ever the "bottom 
line" really is on all this, it does seem to me that there is less than 
complete certainty on the matter, at least as regards what appears in the 
suttanta.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4016 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 0:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hi again, Rob (and Erik) -

In a message dated 3/15/01 4:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Howard 
writes:


> I do seem to recall that there are 
> places in the sutta pitaka where the Buddha identifies "Right 
> Concentration" 
> 
================================
       Actually, I found support for this on Access to Insight in an article 
by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which he quotes DN 22. It seems to me that this, together 
with Right Concentration being one factor of the the 8-fold path, tends to 
support the importance of the jhanas on the path to freedom. The relevant 
portion of the article is the following, written by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

The four jhanas make up the usual textual definition of right concentration. 
Thus the Buddha says: 
> And what, monks, is right concentration? Herein, secluded from sense 
> pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters and dwells in 
> the first jhana, which is accompanied by initial and sustained application 
> of mind and filled with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. Then, with 
> the subsiding of initial and sustained application of mind, by gaining 
> inner confidence and mental unification, he enters and dwells in the second 
> jhana, which is free from initial and sustained application but is filled 
> with rapture and happiness born of concentration. With the fading out of 
> rapture, he dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending; and he 
> experiences in his own person that bliss of which the noble ones say: 
> "Happily lives he who is equanimous and mindful" -- thus he enters and 
> dwells in the third jhana. With the abandoning of pleasure and pain and 
> with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters and dwells in 
> the fourth jhana, which has neither-pleasure-nor-pain and purity of 
> mindfulness due to equanimity. This, monks, is right concentration.[<A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/#n64">64</A>] 
===============================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         




 
4017 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:10am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Howard, Robert, et al.)

 
  Hi Howard,
It is oh-so-tempting to cling to the notion of the "dry insight 
worker" because it: (a) looks like a shortcut to developing wisdom, 
(b) it feels somehow purer to think exclusively about the parts of 
Dhamma that are unique to the Buddha and not think so much about 
things that most traditions and cultures revere (viz. virtue) and 
about things like samadhi that seem so difficult and yet ultimately 
are not THE key to liberation, and (c) many serious meditators get 
burned at some point by mistaking samadhi for pañña. As Robert pointed 
out, the so-called suddha-vipassana-yanika does receive some 
scriptural support in the commentary and subcommentary to the Susima 
sutta (S.ii, 199-23). It is also mentioned in Abhidhammatha sangaha, 
chapter I. However, the support is scarce. On the other hand, one 
thing that really strikes me about the suttas (and Abhidhamma too) is 
how frequently and clearly they discuss the importance of cultivating 
virtue and concentration and how important such cultivation is to 
development of the path. The cultivation means such unpopular things 
as renunciation, restraint of senses, seeing danger in the slightest 
fault, and meditation. One particularly pernicious and venomous view 
is that practicing these things is not helpful because there is no 
"who" to direct the practice or work toward active, conscious 
purification of virtue, concentration, and insight. "After all, 
moments of awareness can arise at any time--whether in anger, at the 
movies, looking at porn magazines, etc. So what's the point in trying 
to cultivate the path? You are just deceiving yourself to think 
there's anything you can do." Of course, Buddha explicitly rouses us 
to practice virtue and meditation (samatha and vipassana) and says 
explicitly that he would not do so if progress could not be made.

Dan

 
4018 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Howard, Robert, et al.)

 
  Dear Dan,
Comments below>
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Hi Howard,
> It is oh-so-tempting to cling to the notion of the "dry
> insight 
> worker" ....
However, the support is scarce. On the other hand,
> one 
> thing that really strikes me about the suttas (and Abhidhamma
> too) is 
> how frequently and clearly they discuss the importance of
> cultivating 
> virtue and concentration and how important such cultivation is
> to 
> development of the path. One particularly pernicious and
> venomous view 
> is that practicing these things is not helpful because there
> is no 
> "who" to direct the practice or work toward active, conscious 
> purification of virtue, concentration, and insight. "

Dan I guess I am the one who holds these "particularly
prenicious and venomous views" as you addressed this post to me
and Howard? And Howard seems to discount the idea of a
dry-insight worker as you do. 
Do you really think that developing the path of the
sukkhavipassaka means not cultivating any sila or samattha? And
that that is my position?
If so then I have really being misrepresenting what this path
entails and I sincerely apologize to everyone. 

Here is a section from a message I sent a while back:
>>>WE might think that we will understand all this later, after
we
get enlightened, or next life. However, there is only now. For
deep panna to arise there must be many conditions - we have to
begin to understand this moment. Are the colours appearing now
"something", or is it understood at some level that there is
nothing except visible object appearing to condition seeing?
Seeing is only citta, a majicians trick. Visible object is only
a lump of foam. 
Nina wrote to me yesterday how urgent it is to develop
satipatthana. It is true: the moments flash by, but we are so
neglectful. We want to be aware 'when the time is right'. We
think we will be aware when we are calm, or relaxed, or after we
study more, or when concentration is stronger, or after we keep
sila, or when we are not busy, or when we meet with khun sujin.
This is just thinking and all the time countless moments go
past, lost to understanding.
Sati and panna can only arise when  the right conditions
coincide but knowing about the urgency can be a condition too.
And understanding that nothing at all is self is a basic
understanding that should be very firm intellectually so that
deeper insight can occur. 
If tommorow we are seriously injured will we think this is a
trajedy? Or will we know that a moment is just a moment - no
self - it can be understood. >>>

You know one of my teachers is nina van gorkm.
She notes that the bodhisatta "esteemed virtue as the foundation
of all achievements" - she then carries on and gives so many
deatils about sila. This is in her book The perfections leading
to enlightenment".
On generosity she writes:
"if one is sincere in the development of satipatthana one will
become less selfish and have more consideration for others..one
will not expect any gain for oneself.." A whole chapter
continues in this vein.
On determination:
"Are we determined to continue to develop right understanding
until we have reached the goal?"

On renunciation:
She gives many stories form the jataka about renunciation and
later notes that a monk friend Dhammadharo"told me that in his
temple monks usually drank plain water, no coffee tea or other
beverages and how glad he was to learn to be contented with
plain water" She shows many ways that we can renounce in our
daily lives.

On energy:
She writes how for so many live ste Bodhisatta endured great
hardship and affliction without becoming disenchanted. She notes
it takes energy to listen to dhamma. And especially to be aware
over and over again of namas and rupas. That this has to be done
not just a few times but should becoem our habit in life. 
Dan - this is effort that I can attest to is not imaginary. It
is no easy task to learn to study dhammas as they arise. To be
so patient that one will not take imitation awareness for the
real one. It is such a slow process that many are inclined not
to do so or think it can't be done. It can - it takes so much
effort though, nothing could be harder or more difficult to
understand.
Nina writes "we need to consider dhammas ardently , that is with
courage and perserverance"

On patience:
She writes "can there be patience when it is too cold or too
hot, when things in the house are out of ordwer, when we are in
the midst of traffic jam? At such moments we should consider "If
I don't develop patience now there will never be any
patience"."" She gives many examples. She notes that if we
develop understanding we gradully see that there is nothing
other than nama and rupa and so patience becomes stronger as
there is no self to protect.

On truthfulness:
A whole chapter. I am running out of time so will leave that for
now.
Metta - another whole chapter. And also I recommend Khun sujins
book "metta - loving kindness" This is one of the ways of
samattha that has to be developed in tandem with satipatthana.

Upekkha - equanimity.
She explains so many ways and how we should develop equanimity
to all the vicissitudes in life. Not only that but in each
momnet there is understanding of nama and rupa there is true
uppekka of a very high degree.

You might enjoy reading the book Deeds of Merit by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket  It hasn't been prepared for publication yet and
has formatting problems and a few spelling mistakes but can be
read at
http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html


I have to go. Please let me know what you think Dan.
robert




4019 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:29am
Subject: URGENT!!!

 
  Please sign the petition and spread the word! Thank you! 

 http://msf.org/

 
4020 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Howard, Robert, et al.)

 
  Hi, Rob -

In a message dated 3/15/01 9:06:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> Dan I guess I am the one who holds these "particularly
> prenicious and venomous views" as you addressed this post to me
> and Howard? And Howard seems to discount the idea of a
> dry-insight worker as you do. 
> 
===========================
       Just so you don't misunderstand what I had written, I don't exactly 
discount that idea. What I was questioning was really what being a 
"dry-insight worker" actually means. My point was only that the term seems to 
be compatible with attaining the first four jhanas, but not the formless 
absorptions, and that the Buddha did seem to make much of the jhanas, 
particularly the first four.
       It is in fact my own experience from a 10-day Goenka retreat that the 
intensity of concentration that can be attained during "insight meditation" 
(vipassana bhavana) can be *enormous*, and that it is accompanied by rapture 
at one stage, then by calm and happiness, then contentment, and then a 
pristine equanimity. Whether this is jhanic or not I cannot say. It is 
certainly powerful. It seems to me that concentration (and calm) and 
mindfulness are mutually supportive, growing together (with mindfulness 
taking the lead), and, in tandem, lead to insight.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4021 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:17am
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  > > Bonne nuit, Num!
> > 
> > Faites de beaux reves!
> > 
> > A.
> > 
> ===============================
>        An interesting difference between French and English idiom: 
In English 
> it is "Have good dreams", and in French it is "Make good dreams". 
From the 
> Buddhist perspective, there is something valid and something invalid 
in each 
> formulation, I think. Dreams are, indeed, fabricated. On the other 
hand, we 
> have only small control over over our dreams.


Dear Howard,

Languages are just pannatti, 'shadows of paramattha dhamma' for people 
to communicate through.  Actually I have only ever heard in English 
things like 'have a nice night, sweet dreams', etc.  and the literal 
French translation would be more like 'good night, make some beautiful 
dreams'.  

You're right that 'we' can't control even our own dreams, which are 
just thoughts anyway and like all things arise from conditions, here 
our own accumulations.  One interesting point, if I remember 
correctly, the arahanta do not dream anymore.

Amara

 
4022 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:19am
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  > Nibbana is described as with anatta but not dukkha nor anicca...


Absolutely!  I was thinking of arammana that we can experience in our 
lives.

A.

 
4023 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:37am
Subject: Hello

 
  Hi, one and all,

My name is Herman. I am a Dutch-born person resident in Australia.

I have read messages from this group for some time, with great interest.

I have found in the teachings of the Buddha the profoundest expression of
reality.

In my opinion it would be nice if Nibbana were more than a concept.

My knowledge of the pali canon is minimal.

Look forward to sharing wisdom (or lack thereof  :-) ) with you all.

Herman

 
4024 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: Hello

 
  > Hi, one and all,
> 
> My name is Herman. I am a Dutch-born person resident in Australia.
> 
> I have read messages from this group for some time, with great 
interest.
> 
> I have found in the teachings of the Buddha the profoundest 
expression of
> reality.
> 
> In my opinion it would be nice if Nibbana were more than a concept.
> 
> My knowledge of the pali canon is minimal.
> 
> Look forward to sharing wisdom (or lack thereof  :-) ) with you all.
> 
> Herman


Hello Herman!

Welcome to the discussions, to share whatever we have, I'm very glad 
you have joined in! 

Looking forward to your contributions, a fellow member of the group,

Amara

 
 
4025 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:01am
Subject: Moderator message

 
  Dear Ven. Dhammapiyo

Please note carefully the guidelines as to what are
suitable posts for this list.  The guidelines can be
found at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/

Thanks
Jon and Sarah


 
4027 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 0:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  Welkomstgroet, Herman,

Look forward to corresponding to you.

mike


 
4028 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Dear Mike & Num,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Num, 
> 
> If I were religious I'd say you were a godsend to
> this
> list.  Always a pleasure, Sir.
> 

May I share my appreciation too. I really appreciate
the keen appreciation of the heart of the Teachings
and the humour and style is always welcome! Actually
I'm rather missing your humourous posts, mike, now I
think about it...(lobha and dosa)! Num, I agree with
the comments you made sometime about how it's more fun
studying together on list than on one's own. We share
an interest in people and accumulations and this is a
perfect forum to combine that interest with our
appreciation of the dhamma! No reason why studying the
dhamma shouldn't be fun too!

Just a couple of points NUM:

1. To quote from the end of a good post to Cybele, you
said: 'Let me give you some of my opinion, be kind to
yourself.  Metta is not only for everyone else, in
turns inward to a person who has it as well.'

Just to clarify, metta cannot be to oneself, it can
only be to others...  I do agree however that it is
wise and sensible to take care of oneself, to look
after one's health and needs. For one thing, it can
make it a little easier to study and share dhamma.

2. You mentioned in a post to Erik that you always
'learn a lot from my friends, my teachers, my
students, my clients and at time even from animals and
trees'. Now Num, let me in on your secret; what do you
learn from animals and trees??!??

Mike,
The list has been so busy and there were a couple of
points of yours I meant to pick up on but won't spend
time looking now. You suggested that now you <have
studied quite a lot of abhidhamma and> appreciate
intellectually the speed at which all these processes
of namas and rupas are passing by, that being aware of
a (any) reality at this moment seems pretty
impossible. More recently you said to Jon sth about
very little chance of being aware of a nama or a rupa.


Although it is essential (according to my
understanding, Erik) to have some theoretical
understanding of abhidhamma and to have heard about
nama and rupa (or what they represent in whaterver
language), the knowledge has to penetrate deeper at
this moment. At this moment there cannot be
understanding of billions of processes or even of more
than one nama or rupa appearing. So, I suggest it's
better to forget any idea of what should be known (let
alone what could be known by the Buddha himself) and
live normally, naturally, letting awareness do its
job, having read and considered about the various
realities. Any sati or panna (awareness or wisdom) of
realities has to be very little (in quantity and
depth) in the beginning, with many moments of doubt,
wondering and confusion in between. 

However these moments of doubt and wondering are also
real and can be known when they appear. Sometimes I
even find myself smiling or laughing at them! If we
take the path or practice too seriously, count the
moments of awareness or lack of awareness (now we know
how seldom they arise), it shows that clinging to
self, clinging to progress, that I've mentioned
recently in the compassion discussions with Howard. 

The Buddha stressed the value of khanti (patience) and
khanti parami. Khanti with our own accumulations and
the difficulty of developing the path will help us to
also have more khanti for others in the same boat...No
easy path for anyone. (Personally, I find it more
realistic to thinks of others lost in samsara with
moha (ignorance) than as potential Buddhas as this can
be a condition for metta and compassion.)  

Mike, appreciating the shere difficulty of the task
and how little is known about what appears at this
moment is a very big step in the right direction and
should be cause for encouragement, not discouragement.


Best regards and thank you & Num for your support &
friendship,

Sarah


 
4029 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:09pm
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  hello dear Amara, 
ah, yes, to draw from one well and taste its waters as 
refreshing and clarifying is to give us grounded reason
to return to that well. 
jinavamsa (glad to be returning).

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> > This seems to touch on the question of when we should accept a 
> > given teaching, with the focus on who the person is from whom
> > the teaching is coming. 
> > 
> > One orientation suggests that even if a teaching is said to 
> > come from the Buddha, that is no reason to accept it as true. 
> > And even if it comes directly from the Buddha's mouth (for 
> > those living in such a context, which according to some 
> > versions of Buddhist cosmology isn't the case since the 
> > Buddha died for the rest of the present cosmic cycle), even 
> > then it is not to be accepted merely because he said it. 
> > 
> > So if this has any relevance, we are back to seeing if a 
> > teaching is nonsense or inspiring (or something else). 
> > 
> > Be a light/island unto yourself was one bit of advice. Of course
> > we don't have to accept that, either! 
> 
> Dear Jina,
> 
> Welcome back!
> 
> I am still for the Tipitaka and commentaries for several reasons, 
the 
> most important of which is that no other teachings offer such study 
of 
> the present moment which everyone can verify for himself 
immediately, 
> about the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, and their 
> object.  Anyone who can teach me about these with such truth and 
logic 
> is has my attention.  But so far for me personally no one else makes 
> as much sense, and this is why I place it above any other reading.
> 
> Amara

 
4030 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: Re: suttas about death (to comfort)

 
  --- "cybele chiodi"  
wrote:
> 
thank you Cybele. I hope you have a good stay in London. 
Jinavamsa


> Dear Jinavamsa
> 
> Thank you for your kindness in recollecting this sutta, it's also 
one of my 
> favourites.
> I am just arrived in London but before going to my hotel I stopped 
by to 
> check my mail.
> It has been suggested indeed but i am grateful the same for your 
interest.
> 
> Love and respect
> Cybele
> 
>

 

 
4032 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:17pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  hello Dan and Amara and all, 
if we have no qualifiers here it is perhaps ambiguous. 
if we add the "all" [sabbe] from the Dhammapada (Dhp), it's 
hopefully clearer: 
all sankharas are anicca
all sankharas are dukkha
all dhammas are anatta
(Dhp. 277-279) 


--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> > Nibbana is described as with anatta but not dukkha nor anicca...
> 
> 
> Absolutely!  I was thinking of arammana that we can experience in 
our 
> lives.
> 
> A.

 
4033 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  Hi Herman,

Many thanks for letting us know you've joined us.
you've made your entrance in one of the busiest (most
active) weeks of the list for a long time. If you or
any other new members find they're having trouble
keping up with posts, I suggest using a filter or
digest system (message about options in the files on
the homepage).

--- Herman Hofman  wrote: >
Hi, one and all,
> 
> My name is Herman. I am a Dutch-born person resident
> in Australia.

Whereabouts? Jon is from Adelaide (but in Thailand and
Hog Kong for most of the last 30yrs) and we'll be in
Sydney very soon....just v.briefly..
> 
> I have read messages from this group for some time,
> with great interest.

Good, you're obviously coping fine...
> 
> I have found in the teachings of the Buddha the
> profoundest expression of
> reality.
> 
> In my opinion it would be nice if Nibbana were more
> than a concept.

sounds like some wishful thinking here...
> 
> My knowledge of the pali canon is minimal.

There are some useful messages on the files page under
useful messages, 'new to the list and new to the
dhamma' with strategies (!) for tackling the pali
here..
> 
> Look forward to sharing wisdom (or lack thereof  :-)
> ) with you all.

Me too....I'm sure you're being very modest..if you're
already following and up-to-date (which is more than I
am), you must have a real interest in the
dhamma...look forward to hearing more from you,
especially about this interest....

Sarah

p.s. Dan, Lee and Jina,

Glad to see you back on list after your long
holidays..hope to respond more. Lee, look forward to
hearing how you view the path and the practice these days.


 
4034 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  Sarah,

>> My name is Herman. I am a Dutch-born person resident
>> in Australia.
>
>Whereabouts? Jon is from Adelaide (but in Thailand and
>Hog Kong for most of the last 30yrs) and we'll be in
>Sydney very soon....just v.briefly..

I live in Bathurst, (regional NSW)  about 200kms west of Sydney. I have
lived in Sydney, Adelaide, Broken Hill, all over the place really. I have
very fond memories of Adelaide.

Thank you for the kind advice.


Herman

 
4035 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Dear Erik,

I think you've single-handedly doubled the size of the
list and I certainly appreciate your keen interest in
the Teachings. As I mentioned at the beginning, there
is no 'collective reasoning' here and you're rapidly
establishing your own 'relationship' with all the
active members....Please don't be deterred if some of
can't keep up with your output or become a little
heated or impatient at times....

Back to the meat of your message(s):

--- Erik wrote: 
>  I have never seen anything to indicate
> this is the only 
> way. Also, I have never heard any teacher of
> Theravada or any system 
> say that we must come understand patahattha dhammas
> in only this way, 
> that "this alone is true, all other ways are false."

Perhaps I should start with a couple of quotes as it
is the Buddha and his teachings (certainly not just my
limited understanding) which we are attempting to
discern here.

As I mentioned, the Buddha encouraged us to understand
the realities appearing now through 6 doorways.

The following is from Sam. Nik. (part 1V,
Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense,111,23):

'"Monks I will teach you the all.  Do you listen to
it. And what, monks, is the all?  It is eye and
object, ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and
savour, body and things tangible, mind and
mind-states.  That, monks, is called 'the all'.

Whoso, monks, should say: "Rejecting this all, I will
proclaim another all, -it would be mere talk on his
part, and when questioned he could not make good his
boast, and further would come to an ill pass.  Why so?
Because, monks, it would be beyone his scope to do
so."' 

So, Erik, I think we agree on what are paramattha
dhammas already. Further on, the Buddha continues:

'"I will teach you a teaching, monks, for the
abandoning of the all by fully knowing, by
comprehending it. Do you listen to it.  And what,
monks, is that teaching?

The eye, monks, must be abandoned by fully knowing, by
comprehending it. 
Objects...eye-consciousness..eye-contact..that
pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or neutral
feeling...that also must be abandoned by fully
knowing, by fully comprehending it.

The mind..mind-states...that pleasant feeling,
unpleasant feeling or neutral feeling...that also must
be abandoned by fully knowing it, by comprehending
it."'

The Buddha continues a little later: '....."Bhikkhus,
without directly knowing and fully understanding the
all, without developing dispassion towards it and
abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying
suffering....."' 

The note from the commentary at this point adds:'In
this sutta the three kinds of full understanding are
discussed; full undestanding of the known, full
understanding by scrutinization, and full
understanding as abandonment.'

I could continue, but I think you'll understand why
there is an emphasis on understanding paramattha
dhammas at all levels of wisdom in the Theravada
teachings. 

Seeing is anatta, not self. It is a nama, a reality
which experiences an object. It sees and then it falls
away. It arises when there are the right conditions
only, not by will or strategy. If there is no visible
object there cannot be seeing, for example.

This is how it is for all the other phenomena that
make up our lives. Understanding these phenomena as
they really are is the way to understand that they are
anatta. There has to be repeated understanding and
awareness over and over again of the different mental
and physical phenomena so that gradually the
impermanent and unsatisfactory nature of these
realities can become more apparent as higher levels of
wisdom are developed. These characteristics are not
concepts to be known through contemplation outside the
realities appearing now. This is the development of
vipassana (right understanding) as explained by the
Buddha. 

> At the most basic level, this is in perfect accord
> with my 
> understanding.

This is the basic level, the intermediate level and
the higher level. Panna (rt understanding) has to
understand these realities (in the quote) and
accumulate and understand more and more precisely
until the defilements are eradicated. The path or
strategy or raft is the same in the beginning, middle
and end. It may seem to be prejudiced or missing out
on other valuable gateways or strategies, but this
(view) would show (to me) a lack of confidence and
full appreciation of the Buddha's teachings. 
 
> Hopefully I'll be able in the not-too-distant future
> to communicate 
> my own understanding in your preferred language,

I don't think the language is the issue her, Erik. We
all come to the dhamma with different languages such
as psychotherapic, physic, Italian, Sunset
appreciative, yogic or wherever our understandings
have led us. I'm sure we all apprciate your sincerity
and effort to understand what we're saying with our
different languages and understandings. One more quote
in the Buddha's language to finish up:

'At Savatthi.  "Bhikkhus, form is nonself, feeling is
nonself, perception is nonself.  Seeing thus...he
undertands:..there is no more for this state of
being."'  (Sam.Nik. 111, khandhavagga, 14)

Writing this post has been my lunch today and I
couldn't think of any better sustenance, so I thank
you for this opportunity.

Best regards,
Sarah 



 
4036 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 4:32pm
Subject: Re: Hello

 
  > In my opinion it would be nice if Nibbana were more than a concept.


Dear Herman,

When I said nibbnana was not something I would experience in this life 
I was being pessimistic, I suppose, since according to the 
commentaries in the third millenium of the sasana enlightenment is 
possible up to the stage of the anagami.  Still I wonder if I would 
even get close to the sotapanna level!!!  But with the right 
conditions, anything can happen, don't you think?

Theoretically, nibbana is real, and I believe in its existence, 
logically there should be something like that, and most importantly 
the Buddha said that the right level of panna would show us this 
reality.  That such is the unique truth of nibbana that the experience 
of its characteristics would eradicate kilesa, according to the level 
of panna.  

One can see from the level or daily accumulation of sati and right 
understanding in daily life gives us a new perspective on things that 
appear around us.  Instead of being swept along with all the arammana 
that persent themselves through the eyes, ears, nose, etc. and 
especially the mind with its infinity of trains of thoughts' one sees 
realities as they really are.  Through the eyes right now there is 
visible object, and we take them for messages on the computer screen, 
arguments and all sorts of situations.  Actually all this is thoughts 
and emotions, and especially the memory thereof, which the self is 
made up of, and which drags us on even as we read.  Whereas if we 
studied realities right now, the self can't even be found.  Is it in 
the eyes?  In seeing?  In the mind?  In the body?  Wherever the citta 
arises, all the clinging makes us take that as ours.  

Without the study of realities as they really are, we continue to take 
this conglomeration as us, whether we are doing samadhi or arguing 
with anyone.  With the understanding of the citta as not one 
continuous soul, as an I who can decide to control this or that, one 
begins to have an intellectual comprehension of the tilakhana, of 
impermanence, instantaneous changes, and non self, under no one's 
control.  Right understanding at the beginning level, theoretical and 
contemplative, could start and lead to the experiencing of awareness 
of things as they really are, when the awareness that arises with all 
kusala citta, that is, sati cetasika that is one of the 'automatic' 
kusala cetasikas arising with all kusala citta, could study realities. 
 

At the moment of study, we accumulate kusala, and there is a level of 
bhavana, as satipatthana.  How?  First consider what samadhi is.  It 
is the moment the citta is free from lobha, dosa and moha.  Before the 
Buddha's time they knew this and tried to avoid the arammana of the 
six senses and concentrate on a single object, that is replaced by 
something more and more refined as the jhana deepened in level of 
attainment.  The result of the highest attainment is to be born in the 
highest brahma bhumi for the longest time, after which they come back 
to start over and over again.  The Buddha taught that even those who 
practice the deepest jhana are themselves only sankhara, under no 
one's control, that even the jhana and those who practice did not 
really have a self, a soul.  Something they did not know before, and 
this knowledge liberated thousands who were with jhana but no 
understanding of anatta at that time, which had never happened before, 
and at that time they practiced samma samadhi.

Bud satipatthana does not need jhana from samadhi practice.  It has 
several powers worthy of a Buddha's teachings, the first of which is 
that is only arises with kusala citta.  Those who think they are given 
the license to become libertines do not have any idea of what sati is 
(or are they just pretending to be ignorant?), in which case they 
should read up on the chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary' in the 
advanced section of < http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >.  Unlike samadhi or 
ekaggata cetasika that arises with all citta, sati arises with all 
kusala only, ie when the citta evolves with dana, sila or bhavana.  
And studying realities as they arise is bhavana, it develops panna to 
gather knowledge about the characteristics of things that appear, as 
nama and rupa, not conventional pannatti we live with all our lives.  
This additional knowledge, when accumulated from these tiny, 
imperceptible moments of sati could build up into a powerful enough 
reality to begin to show its prowess in moments of deeper sati, to 
already give us a glimpse of anattaness.

Of course as things happen at a blinding speed, we would have to 
develop satipatthana like picking up grains of sand to build a step to 
stand on, with these tiny flashes of awareness, but each moment is 
kusala and at that moment kilesa doesn't arise.  It is khanika 
samadhi, and will deepen imperceptibly as well, until the moment of 
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, when panna reveals the complete and total 
separation of the rupa from the nama.  Ordinarily we never experience 
the mind dvara, which is obscured by speed and arammana.  At that 
first nana, the nama presents itself, for the first time in that 
person's life.  Even those with the highest jhana would never have 
this experience, much less nibbana, which is a long way off.  This is 
only the first nana of the sixteen levels of knowledge reached by 
panna through the accumulations fed by satipatthana.  Studying one 
single arammana would never reach this.  Which is why the Tipitaka is 
full of exhortations to be aware of all the dvara, eyes, ears, nose, 
etc, and at all times, and in all positions, not just the four people 
tend to refer to.  

Those who begin to know how to develop satipatthana would be able to 
experience realities as they truly are at each moment.  And looking 
back they will see how much they have learned compared to when they 
had no idea what it was all about, and the gradual increase in that 
distance.  But looking forward to nibbana can only be pannatti, simply 
because there are no conditions for us to experience that yet.  If one 
has never seen the snow, or the sea, can one really see what it is 
like just from descriptions?  Surely one can only speculate.  Nibbana 
needs very specific conditions , especially panna of power to arise, 
it is clearly not for me in this lifetime, I don't think.  But at 
least I am accumulating the right conditions for it to happen sometime 
in the future, according to the Tipitaka.

Anumodana with all those who study,

Amara

 
4037 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 4:37pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (to rpka21)

 
  --- jinavamsa wrote:
> hello Dan and Amara and all, 
> if we have no qualifiers here it is perhaps ambiguous. 
> if we add the "all" [sabbe] from the Dhammapada (Dhp), it's 
> hopefully clearer: 
> all sankharas are anicca
> all sankharas are dukkha
> all dhammas are anatta
> (Dhp. 277-279) 

Dear Jina,

Yes indeed, thank you,

Amara
 
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Nibbana is described as with anatta but not dukkha nor anicca...
> > 
> > 
> > Absolutely!  I was thinking of arammana that we can experience in 
> our 
> > lives.
> > 
> > A.

 
4038 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:48pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  Dear Herman,

Welcome to the group and may you find (and be able to
discern) the true teachings of Buddha in this group.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herman Hofman 

> In my opinion it would be nice if Nibbana were
> more than a concept.

Buddha did teach that Nibbana is real.  There is just no
condition for most of us to experience it.

Anumoddhana.

kom

 
4039 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:49pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Dear Howard,

The general question is, do we have control of anything?  My
understanding is since "we" do not exist, we certainly
cannot control.  If all (except one) dhammas arise because
of complex conditions, indeed, only one dhamma alone cannot
condition the arising of another dhamma.  Can we control
sati to arise?  Who/what are we?  How does sati arise?  What
conditions sati to arise?

Just a thought.

> -----Original Message-----
>        An interesting difference between French
> and English idiom: In English
> it is "Have good dreams", and in French it is
> "Make good dreams". From the
> Buddhist perspective, there is something valid
> and something invalid in each
> formulation, I think. Dreams are, indeed,
> fabricated. On the other hand, we
> have only small control over over our dreams.

 
4040 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:49pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Howard, Robert, et al.)

 
  Dear Howard,

> -----Original Message-----
>        It is in fact my own experience from a
> 10-day Goenka retreat that the
> intensity of concentration that can be attained
> during "insight meditation"
> (vipassana bhavana) can be *enormous*, and that
> it is accompanied by rapture
> at one stage, then by calm and happiness, then
> contentment, and then a
> pristine equanimity. Whether this is jhanic or
> not I cannot say. It is
> certainly powerful. It seems to me that
> concentration (and calm) and
> mindfulness are mutually supportive, growing
> together (with mindfulness
> taking the lead), and, in tandem, lead to insight.

Leaving aside the discussion of whether or not Goenka
retreat/Mahasi's retreat is a valid way of developing
satipatthana or not, may I contribute my understadings of
Abhidhamma (without implying about what arose for you during
the time since I cannot know)

1) concetration (samathi, eggakata cetasika) arise with both
Kusala and Akusala
2) Rapture (Piti) can arise with both Kusala and lobha-mula

Regardless of whether or not the dhammas are kusala or
akusala, it is still not-self, insignificant, not worth
clinging to.  I often cling to the feeling of contentment,
only to realize conceptually later that this is yet another
not-so-subtle lobha of believing that I have or I am.

With Metta,

kom

 
 
4041 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Moderator message

 
  Dear Sarah and Jon,

Would you be kind enough to write me off list and tell me what the problem
is? I read the guidelines and I am not sure what it is that is the problem.

Thanks!

Metta,

Bhante D.

 
4042 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 8:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Moderator message

 
  Dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
Perhaps I can second guess sarah and jon. One section of
guidelines says:>>
The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how
interesting or useful they may seem):  chain letters, virus
alerts, ‘everybody in my address book’ messages, circulars,
petitions ">>

You probably were not aware of the 'petition' subclause. You
aren't the first to  be reprimanded under this section (most
people don't know about it.)

rob



--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"  wrote:
> Dear Sarah and Jon,
> 
> Would you be kind enough to write me off list and tell me what
> the problem
> is? I read the guidelines and I am not sure what it is that is
> the problem.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Bhante D.
> 



 
4043 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 8:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Moderator message

 
  Hi Robert,

I think the that the petition is in line with the Dhamma. I do not send out
such things lightly.

The Blessed One gave clear instructions about His relationship to the care
of the sick.

I confess I do not regret sending the link. There are times that require us
to engage in Buddhadhamma action for the benefit of humanity and this is
surely one of those times.

While I, of course, respect the purpose of this community, the intention was
purely motivated out of compassion and overwhelming need.

Thank you so very much for your kind explanation.

May this find you well.

Metta cittena,

Bhante D.

 
4044 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Moderator message

 
  No argument here from me venerable, a very worthy petition.
Second guessing again, but I imagine sarah and jon feel they
shouldn't make exceptions.
 Someone promoted the publishing of a new book by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket (saying where donations could be made) a few
months back and was  told on list that even this is not allowed
on dsg.

robert
--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> I think the that the petition is in line with the Dhamma. I do
> not send out
> such things lightly.
> 
> The Blessed One gave clear instructions about His relationship
> to the care
> of the sick.
> 
> I confess I do not regret sending the link. There are times
> that require us
> to engage in Buddhadhamma action for the benefit of humanity
> and this is
> surely one of those times.
> 
> While I, of course, respect the purpose of this community, the
> intention was
> purely motivated out of compassion and overwhelming need.
> 
> Thank you so very much for your kind explanation.
> 
> May this find you well.
> 
> Metta cittena,
> 
> Bhante D.
> 



 
4045 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 4:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 3/16/01 4:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> The general question is, do we have control of anything?
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Indeed. I had that in mind when I pointed out that we have little 
contol over our dreams (using dreams as a case in point).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
   > understanding is since "we" do not exist, we certainly
> cannot control.  If all (except one) dhammas arise because
> of complex conditions, indeed, only one dhamma alone cannot
> condition the arising of another dhamma.  Can we control
> sati to arise?  Who/what are we?  How does sati arise?  What
> conditions sati to arise?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Well, of course I understand that there is no "we" except in a 
conventional sense. All dhammas are impersonal (anatta). When we speak 
conventionally of "our" exercising, or not exercising control, what we are 
actually speaking of is the role of volition in affecting events. 
       Generally, the primary sense of 'ownership' is that of control. If a 
person supposedly owns a business, but most of what the business does is 
controlled by the government, then that person's "ownership" is little more 
than ownership in name only. The fact that volition has only limited contol 
over "ones" body and mind is used in the Dhamma as one means of showing lack 
of ownership. It is a means of pointing out impersonality/no-self.
-----------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> >        An interesting difference between French
> > and English idiom: In English
> > it is "Have good dreams", and in French it is
> > "Make good dreams". From the
> > Buddhist perspective, there is something valid
> > and something invalid in each
> > formulation, I think. Dreams are, indeed,
> > fabricated. On the other hand, we
> > have only small control over over our dreams.
> 
=============================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4046 From: Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  All:

    I am completely blown away by this e-mail list.  You guys are really
into the dhamma here, hardcore!  Lots of Pali terms and scriptural
references.  I'm completely amazed.

    I don't think I'm quite ready to keep up with you here.  I read and try
to understand what's being said.  It seems sometimes that based on some of
the arguments on this particular thread, and some others, that some of you
are basically saying that we are mindless automotons, hopelessly moving
through a never ending stream of unfolding karma.  The best we can hope for
is some spontaneous enlightenment, or maybe some acute form of awareness
allowing us to see things "as they are."

     If there's nothing to "develop" and no one to do the "developing" then
what exactly are we to do if anything at all?  Just sit and hope for the
best?  Apparently concentration or insight is near unattainable by most
people.  What exactly should we be doing?

     I like this list because it's challenging me, but I feel maybe I need
to really sit and ponder over what the dhamma study home page is saying and
then try follow the e-mail list in mind.  

Derick

 
4047 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:08pm
Subject: Re: On Right View

 
  >     I am completely blown away by this e-mail list.  You guys are 
really
> into the dhamma here, hardcore!  Lots of Pali terms and scriptural
> references.  I'm completely amazed.


Hi Derick, 

It's great to hear from you!  Don't let us intimidate you with all the 
technical terms, we're just checking the sources and pooling resources 
in order to get at the right understanding.  You might compare it to 
your having to learn how to call parts of a gun or a tank or even an 
airplane in order to communicate among those who use them.  Just shout 
when you need some help with a certain term and someone will surely 
explain it to you, or point you to the right glossary!


>     I don't think I'm quite ready to keep up with you here.  I read 
and try
> to understand what's being said.  It seems sometimes that based on 
some of
> the arguments on this particular thread, and some others, that some 
of you
> are basically saying that we are mindless automotons, hopelessly 
moving
> through a never ending stream of unfolding karma.  The best we can 
hope for
> is some spontaneous enlightenment, or maybe some acute form of 
awareness
> allowing us to see things "as they are."
> 
>      If there's nothing to "develop" and no one to do the 
"developing" then
> what exactly are we to do if anything at all?  Just sit and hope for 
the
> best?  Apparently concentration or insight is near unattainable by 
most
> people.  What exactly should we be doing?


My personal opinion is that before we start doing anything we should 
first understand what and why we should be doing it.  I think that the 
gist of the teachings is to attain wisdom of things as they really 
are, which will then automatically eradicate wrong understanding and 
then kilesa or bad tendencies level by level permanently.  To 
accumulate wisdom awareness would study what appears at each moment, 
whether through the eyes now as we read this, or as we think or use 
the mouse, all the different characteristics of realities should be 
noted and will be automatically kept in the panna 'database' used to 
build the most powerful weapon to wipe all the bad cetasikas from the 
citta, ending all kilesa and rebirth.

That's the survey of the situation, all you need is the finesse of the 
practical part of knowing that sati can arise at any time and place 
and study whenever it does, because it can only arise from conditions, 
one being right understanding of the theoretic level, and the other, 
on the practical level, meaning that the more it arises to study 
realities as they really are, the more it conditions other sati to 
arise.  Something like 'practice makes perfect'.  At that level, you 
can forget all the theories and study whatever realities that present 
themselves, you will see, it is quite enjoyable and you will never be 
bored again, realities do change at all times, even right now in front 
of your eyes, nothing ever stays the same, all are impermanent, ever 
changing and under no one's control.


>      I like this list because it's challenging me, but I feel maybe 
I need
> to really sit and ponder over what the dhamma study home page is 
saying and
> then try follow the e-mail list in mind.  


No need to ponder too much, if you have the basics, jump in and add to 
your knowledge with the study of realities!  And tell me how it turns 
out for you, I love to hear refreshing frankness!

Amara

 
4048 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:14pm
Subject: Javana Cittas

 
  Does anyone have a list of the names of the seven javana cittas or 
their function?

 
4049 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: Javana Cittas

 
  > Does anyone have a list of the names of the seven javana cittas or 
> their function?


Dear Erik,

Perhaps Kom could help you, but I personally just call them the first, 
second, third, etc.  For their functions read Citta ch. 4, in the 
'Summary' Part II, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Enjoy!

Amara

 
4050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:41pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (derick)

 
  Dear derick,
See my comments below yours;
--- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE
 wrote:
> All:
> 
>     I am completely blown away by this e-mail list.  You guys
> are really
> into the dhamma here, hardcore!  Lots of Pali terms and
> scriptural
> references.  I'm completely amazed.
> 
The Pali is hard going I know. please sing out if you don't know
a word and someone will give a careful translation. I know many
new members are put off by this and also some of the threads are
quite diificult. Bring us back to earth sometimes by making
comments or asking basic questions on Dhamma- for instance about
giving or sila (morality). These are very important things to
discuss.

>     I don't think I'm quite ready to keep up with you here.  I
> read and try
> to understand what's being said.  > are basically saying that
we are mindless automotons,
> hopelessly moving
> through a never ending stream of unfolding karma.  The best we
> can hope for
> is some spontaneous enlightenment, or maybe some acute form of
> awareness
> allowing us to see things "as they are."
> If there's nothing to "develop" and no one to do the
> "developing" then
> what exactly are we to do if anything at all? 

There is a path derick and it takes effort of heroic proportions
 to develop it. But there is no one on it: Visuddimagga xix19
"phenomena alone flow on- no other view than this is right"

 Just sit and
> hope for the
> best?  Apparently concentration or insight is near
> unattainable by most
> people.  What exactly should we be doing?
> 

 If you are starting to see that developing the path is hard
then you concur with the Buddha:
Sv454 it is more difficult to do sir that a man should penetrate
 the tip of of a hair split a hundred times with the tip of a
similar hair." "They penetrate something far more difficult than
that Ananda, who penetrate correctly This is suffering..."

Some of us on this list are saying it is extremely difficult and
takes careful and sustained study and application and many
different types of kusala that need to be developed to support
the path. This offends some who feel that it should be explained
in a more straightforward matter and that it is difficult but
not overly so. 
Is it off-putting to you if you were to find out that the true
path is  profound beyond anything else and might even take
lifetimes? To a soldier, Derick, this knowledge should cause
energy and determination to arise. The sort of determination
that will go on for no matter how long and how hard things get,
until the goal is reached.

>      I like this list because it's challenging me, but I feel
> maybe I need
> to really sit and ponder over what the dhamma study home page
> is saying and
> then try follow the e-mail list in mind.  
> 
There is a book I recommend as an intro. that is not too
difficult (not so many pali words)Deeds of merit by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket
http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html


kindest regards
robert



 
4051 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Howard,

Just wanted to say (assuming you haven't blocked my
address):

--- Howard wrote:

> Howard:
>        Well, of course I understand that there is no
> "we" except in a 
> conventional sense. All dhammas are impersonal
> (anatta). When we speak 
> conventionally of "our" exercising, or not
> exercising control, what we are 
> actually speaking of is the role of volition in
> affecting events. 
>        Generally, the primary sense of 'ownership'
> is that of control. If a 
> person supposedly owns a business, but most of what
> the business does is 
> controlled by the government, then that person's
> "ownership" is little more 
> than ownership in name only. The fact that volition
> has only limited contol 
> over "ones" body and mind is used in the Dhamma as
> one means of showing lack 
> of ownership. It is a means of pointing out
> impersonality/no-self.

I've tried to formulate a response to the frequent
rhetorical question, 'can we...?' without much
success.  I think you've done well here (for what my
opinion's worth).  Right (or wrong) effort, for
example, is still effort and, as you've pointed out,
volition is still volition even though devoid of self.

Since 'we' won't be free of the illusion of someone
behind the will until stream-entry, it seems to me
that the most worthwhile efforts are those that arise
to distinguish kusala from akusala.

Just a thought.

mike


 
4052 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hi, Mike -

       Thank you for this reply. You begin by writing "Just wanted to say 
(assuming you haven't blocked my address) ...". I can't imagine such a 
thought ever entering my head, Mike! I value your posts very highly!!

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 3/16/01 10:15:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
mike nease writes:


> Howard,
> 
> Just wanted to say (assuming you haven't blocked my
> address):
> 
> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> > Howard:
> >        Well, of course I understand that there is no
> > "we" except in a 
> > conventional sense. All dhammas are impersonal
> > (anatta). When we speak 
> > conventionally of "our" exercising, or not
> > exercising control, what we are 
> > actually speaking of is the role of volition in
> > affecting events. 
> >        Generally, the primary sense of 'ownership'
> > is that of control. If a 
> > person supposedly owns a business, but most of what
> > the business does is 
> > controlled by the government, then that person's
> > "ownership" is little more 
> > than ownership in name only. The fact that volition
> > has only limited contol 
> > over "ones" body and mind is used in the Dhamma as
> > one means of showing lack 
> > of ownership. It is a means of pointing out
> > impersonality/no-self.
> 
> I've tried to formulate a response to the frequent
> rhetorical question, 'can we...?' without much
> success.  I think you've done well here (for what my
> opinion's worth).  Right (or wrong) effort, for
> example, is still effort and, as you've pointed out,
> volition is still volition even though devoid of self.
> 
> Since 'we' won't be free of the illusion of someone
> behind the will until stream-entry, it seems to me
> that the most worthwhile efforts are those that arise
> to distinguish kusala from akusala.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> mike
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4053 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:35pm
Subject: Re: Javana Cittas

 
  > Perhaps Kom could help you, but I personally just call them the 
first, 
> second, third, etc.  For their functions read Citta ch. 4, in the 
> 'Summary' Part II, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Hi Amara, I was unable to find this on the English part of ths site. 
Is is under Beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced, or someplace else?

Thank you again!
Erik

 
4054 From: Num 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Javana Cittas

 
  Hi Erik,

Look in  http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dhamma.htm     Scroll down to 
almost at the end of the web.  Click on "REALITIES AND CONCEPTS,
The Buddha's explanation of the world," by Khun Sujin.  3 parts plus 3a and 
appendix. There are some definition and function of javana citta in there.

Num






 
4055 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: Javana Cittas

 
  > > Perhaps Kom could help you, but I personally just call them the 
> first, 
> > second, third, etc.  For their functions read Citta ch. 4, in the 
> > 'Summary' Part II, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
> 
> Hi Amara, I was unable to find this on the English part of ths site. 
> Is is under Beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced, or someplace else?


Hi Erik,

Glad to hear you're reading!  It's in the advanced section, the full 
title is 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'.  It's my favorite book!  I 
think you'll like it too,

Amara

 
 
4056 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Hi mike,
You write:
> Since 'we' won't be free of the illusion of someone
> behind the will until stream-entry

That's not quite right. We're not free from the illusion of someone 
behind the will until arahantship.

As the anagami Khemaka said (S.22:89/iii,130): "I do not say 'I am' in 
regard to material form, feeling, perception, mental formations, or 
consciousness, nor do I say that there is an 'I am' apart from 
material form, feeling, perception, mental fomations, and 
consciousness. However, a sense that 'I am' is still found in me in 
reference to the five clinging aggregates; but I do not consider 'this 
I am'... Even though the ariyan disciple has abandoned the five lower 
fetters, nevertheless a residual conceit 'I am', desire 'I am', latent 
tendency 'I am' still remains in him in reference to the five clinging 
aggregates."

Bhikkhu Bodhi explains it as follows (in introduction to his 
translation of Mulapariyaya sutta and commentaries, BPS): "The idea 'I 
am' is a spontaneous, athematic notion born from the basic unawareness 
of the egoless nature of phenomena...[Its manifestations] are in 
essence prereflective...The view of a self, on the other hand, is a 
thematic consideration bound up with reflectivity as an inherent part 
of its structure."  

With stream-entry, the fetter of the view "I am" (or the reflective 
creation and active support that sakkayaditthi entails) is broken. But 
the manifestations of the illusion "I am" still arise as conceit and 
desire for being. Thus, we aren't really free of the illusion until we 
are fully liberated.

Dan

 
4057 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 0:39am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:

Dan, just wanted to say I really appreciate your superbly insightful 
posts I've read so far, also yesterday for reopening the debate in my 
own mind about the legitimacy of "dry insight" as truly sufficient 
for liberation. 

I was thinking about this, and that of course sammasamadhi entails 
jhana, and can we do away with a single one of the aspects of the 
Eightfold Path? The "dry insight" route seems to suggest that we do 
not need to cultiave this part of the Eightfold path. Can anyone tell 
me if I am misunderstanding something about this? Would "dry insight" 
mean there's no need to cultivate sammasamadhi?

> Hi mike,
> You write:
> > Since 'we' won't be free of the illusion of someone
> > behind the will until stream-entry
> 
> That's not quite right. We're not free from the illusion of someone 
> behind the will until arahantship.

My understanding is that so long as the limbs of dependent arising 
are present (as is true for all non-arahats) there must by definition 
be avijja, and avijja directly implies mana because avijja is the 
type of ignorance that still conceives of a "self" at the level of 
the khandas as you mention below, which isn't fully eradicated until 
arahat--as the very last thing, to my understanding. I have heard 
mana described as the "last great defilement."

> With stream-entry, the fetter of the view "I am" (or the reflective 
> creation and active support that sakkayaditthi entails) is broken. 
But 
> the manifestations of the illusion "I am" still arise as conceit 
and 
> desire for being. Thus, we aren't really free of the illusion until 
we 
> are fully liberated.

One analogy for this is the simile of the magician. Imagine a 
magician and "magic dust" (maybe it's PCP!) that makes people 
hallucinate. The magician spreads his magic dust around the audience, 
the magic dust enthralls them so that they hallucinate the appearance 
of a elephant on stage. To everyone in the audience it appears as 
though a real, live elephant is there. To the magician, since the 
magician has also breathed the magic dust, he also sees the elephant. 
Hoever, the differnce is that the magician knows the elephant is an 
illusion, whereas the people in the audience mistake the elephant for 
real.

 
4058 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 0:59am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  The magician must be the sotapanna, and what of the arahat? He must be 
the guy wearing the gas mask. No, that can't be right. The arahat 
doesn't use a gas mask. Which one could he be? Hmmm... The illusion of 
the elephant doesn't arise for him because his vision is clear. But he 
wouldn't necessarily avoid being in the room where illusions are 
arising. I can't tell which one he is!

But what of the sotapanna? Why on earth would a noble disciple spread  
magic dust around to make people hallucinate? He wouldn't. He would be 
the dispeller of illusion. He would probably even encourage people to 
take the eight precepts and avoid going to the show in the first 
place because he'd know of the dangers therein. Heck, imbibing the 
magic dust would be in violation of the five precepts, and the 
sotapanna would never do anything to cause others to tarnish their 
sila.

Now look what I've done! I've taken an entirely simple and innocuous 
simile and somehow managed to confuse myself dreadfully trying to 
decipher it...

> One analogy for this is the simile of the magician. Imagine a 
> magician and "magic dust" (maybe it's PCP!) that makes people 
> hallucinate. The magician spreads his magic dust around the 
audience, 
> the magic dust enthralls them so that they hallucinate the 
appearance 
> of a elephant on stage. To everyone in the audience it appears as 
> though a real, live elephant is there. To the magician, since the 
> magician has also breathed the magic dust, he also sees the 
elephant. 
> Hoever, the differnce is that the magician knows the elephant is an 
> illusion, whereas the people in the audience mistake the elephant 
for 
> real.

 
4059 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (jina)

 
  --- jinavamsa wrote : (about tipitaka)
> hello dear Amara, 
> ah, yes, to draw from one well and taste its waters as 
> refreshing and clarifying is to give us grounded reason
> to return to that well. 
> jinavamsa (glad to be returning).

> 
Thanks for the nice turn of phrase. I like to think that even a
philistine like myself can appreciate poetic writing as I age.
rob


 
4060 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:19am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Dear Howard,

I can second Mike to say that I am happy with your answer.
I also would like to contribute my understandings further
here:

Volition that is arising now is also conditioned by
innumerous past namas in more than one ways (anantara
pacaya, samantara pacaya, upanissaya pacaya, and probably
others).  Even volition cannot be controlled [only when
conditions are riped, a volition may occur], even if it
really feels like we can.  Hearing something can be a pacaya
to a certain kind of volition (hearing music often causes
strong lobha for me, hearing dhamma sometimes inspires good
deeds).  Of course, volition can condition considering the
meaning of dhamma, giving, keeping sila, etc.  The question
is, again, what is the condition of for the arising of a
moment of volition, kusala or akusala?

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> Howard:
>        Well, of course I understand that there is
> no "we" except in a
> conventional sense. All dhammas are impersonal
> (anatta). When we speak
> conventionally of "our" exercising, or not
> exercising control, what we are
> actually speaking of is the role of volition in
> affecting events.
>        Generally, the primary sense of
> 'ownership' is that of control. If a
> person supposedly owns a business, but most of
> what the business does is
> controlled by the government, then that person's
> "ownership" is little more
> than ownership in name only. The fact that
> volition has only limited contol
> over "ones" body and mind is used in the Dhamma
> as one means of showing lack
> of ownership. It is a means of pointing out

 
4061 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:24am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Javana Cittas

 
  Dear Erik,

This is teh section about the citta that Khun Amara
mentioned: http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat4.html.  It
doesn't give the explicit names of the different javana
citta, however.  The differentiation of the 7 pacaya I have
heard are based on how they conditioned one another, and how
they condition the arising of future vipakas.  I am not sure
if this is what you are looking for.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:44 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Javana Cittas
>
> > > Perhaps Kom could help you, but I personally
> just call them the
> > first,
> > > second, third, etc.  For their functions read
> Citta ch. 4, in the
> > > 'Summary' Part II, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
> >
> > Hi Amara, I was unable to find this on the
> English part of ths site.
> > Is is under Beginner, Intermediate, or
> Advanced, or someplace else?
>
>
> Hi Erik,
>
> Glad to hear you're reading!  It's in the
> advanced section, the full
> title is 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'.  It's my
> favorite book!  I
> think you'll like it too,
>
> Amara
>

 
4062 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Re: Hello

 
  A really great post, Amara, and very instructive to me, and I have a 
couple of comments:

> When I said nibbnana was not something I would experience in this 
life 
> I was being pessimistic, I suppose, since according to the 
> commentaries in the third millenium of the sasana enlightenment is 
> possible up to the stage of the anagami.  

A couple of question here. What teachings in Lord Buddha's Dhamma 
suggests this sort of pessimism is beneficial and connected with the 
Goal? Is this type of pessimism in accord with the first indriya and 
bala, for example?

> Nibbana 
> needs very specific conditions , especially panna of power to 
arise, 
> it is clearly not for me in this lifetime, I don't think.  But at 
> least I am accumulating the right conditions for it to happen 
sometime 
> in the future, according to the Tipitaka.

Another few questions. Did Lord Buddha teach accumulating merit for 
the sake of our next lives, or for release here & now? Is it the 
purpose of the Dhamma to create favorable conditions for the next 
life if we are able to study and practice the Dhamma with the aim of 
release in this life? (and forget what is said about arahat being 
impossible today: none of us can possibly know, and in absence of 
clear proof I see no reason to believe we can't). Can you even be 
certain that you will have all the conditions in your next life to 
practice the Dhamma? Also, what better opportunity could you imagine 
than right here and now? What better teachers can you hope to find 
than the ones you have right now?

If we still have hopes for anything in this or a next life, then my 
teachers have said we need to cultivate renunciation. As Dan noted in 
another post, this isn't as much fun as other things, like talking 
about paramattha dhammas and the like. But it is much more central; 
it is a prerequisite to effective practice of Dhamma. I see no way to 
practice Dhamma without a foundation in the renunciation that refuses 
to work for a next life, but endeavours to work for release in this 
life.

Without renunciation it is very hard to do practice any Dhamma 
instruction, because the motivation is not there to practice.  
Without renunciation viriya has few conditions to arise. Why bother 
if samsara doen't seem like all that bad of a place, or that samsara 
is a place we might like to hang out in for awhile? 

My teachers have instructed me that our Dhamma practice should be 
done as if we are in a burning building with only one thought: to get 
out as quickly as possible. To do this we must have total confidence 
(saddha) that we can escape this burning building here and now. If we 
don't, then we will never apply the appropriate effort to the 
problem, and die in agony. It is really this black and white, Amara. 
We must have total confidence that the word of the Buddha can 
liberate us here & now if we resolutely work toward it by learning 
the inner meaning of his instructions. 

I suggest that thinking about paramattha dhammas and the like is no 
help at all unless there is already the burning inner resolve to 
escape the torments of samasara. And also, to know that as in the 
simile of the sea-turtle and wooden ring, if we allow ourselve to "go 
with the flow" of the kilesas and work for an imaginary "future 
life," or give in to hindrances like vicikicca about the Buddha, 
Dhamma, Sangha, we may have to experience aeons of suffering before 
ever finding the Dhamma again. In terms of the indriyas and balas, we 
must have both saddha and viriya as the condition for the arising of 
sati, samadhi, and panna. And Viriya cannot come without very strong 
renunciation and saddha.

 
4063 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:36am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:

> But what of the sotapanna? Why on earth would a noble disciple 
spread  
> magic dust around to make people hallucinate? He wouldn't. He would 
be 
> the dispeller of illusion. He would probably even encourage people 
to 
> take the eight precepts and avoid going to the show in the first 
> place because he'd know of the dangers therein. Heck, imbibing the 
> magic dust would be in violation of the five precepts, and the 
> sotapanna would never do anything to cause others to tarnish their 
> sila.
> 
> Now look what I've done! I've taken an entirely simple and 
innocuous 
> simile and somehow managed to confuse myself dreadfully trying to 
> decipher it...

But you made some great points and you gave me a good laugh at the 
same time! It remindds me I will always endeavour to use the 
snake/rope simile from hereon out! :)

 
4064 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 2:04am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Hi Erik,
It's nice to have you on board. Your posts have done a lot to light up 
an already lively discussion group!

Have no doubts about the legitimacy of "dry insight" as truly 
sufficient for liberation. First, the idea of it makes sense: 
Liberation comes when insight into dhammas is keen enough. 
Second, sukkhavipassaka arahants make their appearance in the suttas 
and commentaries. And third, the viability of sukkhavipassaka is 
clearly suggested in the Abhidhamma. So it is a legitimate 
vehicle. The question is how much that matters. 

Contrary to how it appears at first glance (e.g. as expounded in 
Mahasi's approach), the dry insight vehicle is incredibly difficult to 
drive, and I would suspect that it is appropriate only for those with 
unusually solid accumulations of merit. That excludes me. 

One danger of trying to drive the vehicle is that it is easy to get 
all wrapped up in the idea of "progress of insight" before that 
insight starts to take hold. At some point, one learns to recognize 
what is and what is not insight. The mind starts to imagine: "Oh what 
a wonderful thing this insight is. How liberating it can be! All 
that is truly necessary can be accomplished by wondrous insight." This 
is all very true, but the unconcentrated and unrestrained mind doesn't 
stop there: "Only insight matters. Cultivating samadhi is not 
important. Cultivating sila is not important. When insight is strong 
enough, sila and samadhi of necessity will be perfected. Those people 
who cultivate sila and samadhi and TRY to cultivate pañña are 
deluded. They sit like statues; they try to keep the precepts; they 
try to cultivate calm. They don't realize that only insight matters. 
Merit is only an obstacle to the true practice because liberation 
involves transcending both the wholesome and unwholesome." This skit 
is of course hyperbole, but aversion to merit is most certainly a 
danger to a dry-insight worker. There's a wonderful sutta where Buddha 
exhorts bhikkhus not to fear merit. I wish I could find it again...

Dan

 
4065 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 2:28am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> Hi Erik,
> It's nice to have you on board. Your posts have done a lot to light 
up 
> an already lively discussion group!
> 
> Have no doubts about the legitimacy of "dry insight" as truly 
> sufficient for liberation. First, the idea of it makes sense: 
> Liberation comes when insight into dhammas is keen enough. 

Fair enough. I had come to accept that insight to the degree of 
sotapatti was possible through dry insight, just not the stage of 
arahat given some conflicting statements in the Suttas where the 
Buddha mentions the need for cultivating the jhanas (and that this is 
a path-factor). Though if I had really used my noggin to think it 
rhgouth more, I don't know why I didn't see that if you can destroy 
any samyojanas at all with dry insight, you couldn't also destroy all 
the other samyojans this way too. The main reson I was interested in 
understanding this is because I wouldn't want to toss a whole aspect 
of the Dhamma out on its ear over a misunderstanding on a point like 
this, so thank you very much for clarifying!

> aversion to merit is most certainly a 
> danger to a dry-insight worker. There's a wonderful sutta where 
Buddha 
> exhorts bhikkhus not to fear merit. I wish I could find it again...

I am very thankful for your bringing this up, because this seems to 
be a danger for many people--also in the Bodhisattvayana where the 
emphasis is too much on the "wisdom" aspect without emphasizing the 
importance of dana and sila.

 
4066 From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 2:49am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  --Dear Dan,
- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> > Have no doubts about the legitimacy of "dry insight" as truly 
> sufficient for liberation. First, the idea of it makes sense: 
> Liberation comes when insight into dhammas is keen enough. 
> Second, sukkhavipassaka arahants make their appearance in the 
suttas 
> and commentaries. And third, the viability of sukkhavipassaka is 
> clearly suggested in the Abhidhamma. 

perhaps it could be noted that after one attains anagami- even if by 
sukkhavipassaka - it is quite possible that jhana would be easily 
attainable for many even if they had not practised it much before 
this. An anagami has no more dosa or wrong view or doubt and has 
eliminated desire for the 5 sense objects.  I don't know what the 
textual position is on this; just my speculation.

. 
> 
> Contrary to how it appears at first glance (e.g. as expounded in 
> Mahasi's approach), the dry insight vehicle is incredibly difficult 
to 
> drive, and I would suspect that it is appropriate only for those 
with 
> unusually solid accumulations of merit. That excludes me. 

Actually according to the commentaries as I read them the 
sukkhavipassaka path is considered easier (easier being a relative 
term) simply because it is not as complete as the one that takes 
jhana as a basis. For this one has to become skilled at jhana as well 
as develop vipassana. One may be a sukkhavipassaka and also develop 
samattha but not to the degree of mastery required by the one who 
uses samattha as a basis. 

> 
> One danger of trying to drive the vehicle is that it is easy to get 
> all wrapped up in the idea of "progress of insight" before that 
> insight starts to take hold. At some point, one learns to recognize 
> what is and what is not insight. The mind starts to imagine: "Oh 
what 
> a wonderful thing this insight is. How liberating it can be! All 
> that is truly necessary can be accomplished by wondrous insight." 
This 
> is all very true, but the unconcentrated and unrestrained mind 
doesn't 
> stop there: "Only insight matters. Cultivating samadhi is not 
> important. Cultivating sila is not important. When insight is 
strong 
> enough, sila and samadhi of necessity will be perfected. Those 
people 
> who cultivate sila and samadhi and TRY to cultivate pañña are 
> deluded. They sit like statues; they try to keep the precepts; they 
> try to cultivate calm. They don't realize that only insight 
matters. 
> Merit is only an obstacle to the true practice because liberation 
> involves transcending both the wholesome and unwholesome." This 
skit 
> is of course hyperbole, but aversion to merit is most certainly a 
> danger to a dry-insight worker. There's a wonderful sutta where 
Buddha 
> exhorts bhikkhus not to fear merit. I wish I could find it again...


Yes all this is true (hybebole aside). It is a trap and I know 
sometimes(often?) I fall into it. The Buddha said that merit is 
another word for pleasant result (or something like that) and 
strongly encouraged the monks to develop all types of kusala- merit.
Dan this is an important thread . I hope it can continue to be 
discussed and perhaps others can add points about sila(virtue), 
genorosity,  and other ways of merit. They should not be overlooked. 
I have thought for some time that there should be more discussion 
along these lines on dsg. Already so much has been said about wisdom 
in hundreds of posts. let us remind each other of the other 
perfections.
rob


> 
> Dan

 
4067 From: mike nease 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 2:50am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Dan,

--- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:

> That's not quite right. We're not free from the illusion of someone 
> behind the will until arahantship.

Thanks for the correction.

mike

 
4068 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 3:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Dear Erik,

--- Erik wrote:
> --- "Dan Dalthorp" 
> wrote:
> 
> I was thinking about this, and that of course sammasamadhi
> entails 
> jhana, and can we do away with a single one of the aspects of
> the 
> Eightfold Path? The "dry insight" route seems to suggest that
> we do 
> not need to cultiave this part of the Eightfold path. Can
> anyone tell 
> me if I am misunderstanding something about this? Would "dry
> insight" 
> mean there's no need to cultivate sammasamadhi?


There can be no direct insight- even for the sukkha vipassaka at
any stage of the path - including well before sotapanna unless
there is sammasamadhi: the factor of wisdom needs support from
saati and samadhi. But this samadhi arises together with
sammaditthi and other factors of the eightfactored path. In the
case of the sukkhavipassaka the sammasamadhi is sometimes
referred to as khanika-samadhi (momentary samadhi) as it only
lasts during the moments of insight into whatever paramattha
dhammas are being insighted. 
rob


 
4069 From: Num 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View :metta and secret

 
  Hi Sarah,

I really appreciate your input and your careful attention.  I guess that you 
are pretty busy with your work and your life.  I can only wish that I can be 
more heedful.

Let me clarify what said, and there is no secret. Reality and dhamma are so 
simply honest. :)

<<
<<'Let me give you some of my opinion, be kind to
yourself.  Metta is not only for everyone else, in
turns inward to a person who has it as well.'>>

Just to clarify, metta cannot be to oneself, it can
only be to others...  I do agree however that it is
wise and sensible to take care of oneself, to look
after one's health and needs. For one thing, it can
make it a little easier to study and share dhamma>>

Hmmmm.  When I said that to Cybele I meant adosa cetasika has it's immediate 
action as well as it's consequence in kusula-vipaka to the one who had done 
the action with adosa cetasika.   So the fruit is not only outward effect to 
the entities or people as but also give both immediate and future effects to 
a person who had done any actions with metta.         Anyway, you made me 
think.  At times I am mad or angry at myself, or really give myself a hard 
time.  At times I can aware of my sense of self and just that moment of 
awareness gave me sense of calm and peace, feeling of friendliness even to 
myself.   Can I call that metta? May be just call it adosa moment.

<<let me in on your secret; what do you
learn from animals and trees??!??>>

:) there is no secret, Sarah.  What I've learned is they are the same as 
other dhamma, just a aggregation of rupa or rupa and nama.  The frogs with 
fast life cycles egg, tadpole,..., adult. They lay eggs and die. When  was 
younger, I went fishing.  To see the fish twisting on the floor just reminded 
me that they are in pain as I can be.   Well, just a thought, I cannot read 
the fish's mind but I speculated from their external behavior.     The tree 
is always changing, like the Bhuddha said, nobody can step twice in the same 
river.  When I was on vacation and asked my friend to water my plants, at 
time when I came back some of them died or just dried.  I was upset at my 
friend, but the plant just simply grew back again.   I asked myself what is 
the lesson,"self", "this is my plant".   Reminded of the story that the 
Buddha asked group of monks that why nobody was crying when someone cut or 
burnt the trees in Chetawan.  B/c they are not objects of their clinging.  

Erik brought up a quote from "the art of war" or "romance of the three 
kingdoms" yesterday, also reminded me of another quote "know yourself, know 
your enemy, in a 100 battles, win a 100 victory".   Who is my enemy, nobody 
can but myself, my ignorance.

So to me, every moment, this moment is very precious.  And we can learn a lot 
from every moment, here and now. Everybody and being are my friends who share 
the same path of changing and samsara.   Just a thought.


Appreciate,

Num 



 
4070 From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 3:32am
Subject: Re: On Right View :metta and secret

 
  > <<let me in on your secret; what do you
> learn from animals and trees??!??>>
> 
> :) there is no secret, Sarah.  What I've learned is they are the 
same as 
> other dhamma, just a aggregation of rupa or rupa and nama.  The 
frogs with 
> fast life cycles egg, tadpole,..., adult. They lay eggs and die. ]

One point in the satipatthana sutta has always puzzled me a little:

Thus he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, 
internally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental 
objects, externally, or he lives contemplating mental object in 
mental objects, internally and externally. He lives contemplating 
origination-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating 
dissolution-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating 
origination-and-dissolution-things in mental objects. 

About contemplating the external mental objects. I assume this is a 
type of inferential contemplation. Any ideas?
robert

 
 
4071 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 4:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hello, Howard,

--- Howard wrote:

> Hi, Mike -
> 
>        Thank you for this reply. You begin by
> writing "Just wanted to say 
> (assuming you haven't blocked my address) ...". I
> can't imagine such a 
> thought ever entering my head, Mike! I value your
> posts very highly!!

Mettaa is definitely one of your many strengths. 
Anyway, the feeling is surely mutual...

mike


 
4072 From: Num 
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mana :pride and esteem

 
  Hi all,

As Erik brought up about mana.   I would  like to discuss and get some inputs 
about mana cetasika.  How many different ways can mana cetasika manifest?  
Pride, esteem, feeling of superiority, inferiority, equality, etc.  

I have read about Ven. Sariputta who said that he considered himself as only 
a dustrag or a floormat.  His humbleness is really impressed me. I admire his 
wisdom, his kindness, his patience and his humbleness.   I asked my self do I 
like to feel as a dustrag,  definitely not. At time I thought about how being 
ariyan feel like.  Like a dustrag!??    V.Sariputta is the foremost Bhuddha 
disciple in wisdom 2nd only to the Buddha.   When his mom invited group of 
monk for offering food, she was really mean and sarcastic to the monks.  
V.Sariputta was calm and patient.   When he was wrongly accused by a young 
monk, and after the Buddha cleared the accusation he even asked for a pardon 
from the younger monk if he had offended him in any means.  A lot more 
incidents rgd V.Sariputta's humbleness.

Recommended reading: The Life of Sariputta, 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html


What's the consequence of mana?  Most people like to feel superior, like to 
be approved.


Num



 
4073 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 4:44am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Robert--sukkhavipassaka)

 
  Robert, you wrote:
> Actually according to the commentaries as I read them the 
> sukkhavipassaka path is considered easier (easier being a relative 
> term) simply because it is not as complete as the one that takes 
> jhana as a basis. For this one has to become skilled at jhana as 
well 
> as develop vipassana. 

I'm wondering whom it is easier for. In the mundane view of the path, 
i.e. as a set of "rights" to cultivate to inch toward purification, 
there is samadhi and there is sila. Why is that? Because these things 
are very helpful in developing wisdom. Who can develop wisdom without 
explicitly, consciously, intentionally, actively, and directly 
cultivating samadhi and sila? Such wonderful tools when developed! 
Easier to progress without them? I'm dubious. Maybe for the 
exceptional few for whom sila and samadhi are already purified to such 
an extent that directly cultivating them does not help as much 
directing all effort to developing insight, but since I am not in that 
class, I will actively, directly, consciously, explicitly cultivate 
sila and samadhi, fully realizing that my efforts will be impure for 
some time to come.

 
4074 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 0:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Hi, Kom -

       I agree with the following completely. Volition, like all dhammas 
other than nibbana, is conditioned. If this were not so, there would be no 
truth of anatta.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 3/16/01 12:22:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kom writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> I can second Mike to say that I am happy with your answer.
> I also would like to contribute my understandings further
> here:
> 
> Volition that is arising now is also conditioned by
> innumerous past namas in more than one ways (anantara
> pacaya, samantara pacaya, upanissaya pacaya, and probably
> others).  Even volition cannot be controlled [only when
> conditions are riped, a volition may occur], even if it
> really feels like we can.  Hearing something can be a pacaya
> to a certain kind of volition (hearing music often causes
> strong lobha for me, hearing dhamma sometimes inspires good
> deeds).  Of course, volition can condition considering the
> meaning of dhamma, giving, keeping sila, etc.  The question
> is, again, what is the condition of for the arising of a
> moment of volition, kusala or akusala?
> 
> kom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Howard:
> >        Well, of course I understand that there is
> > no "we" except in a
> > conventional sense. All dhammas are impersonal
> > (anatta). When we speak
> > conventionally of "our" exercising, or not
> > exercising control, what we are
> > actually speaking of is the role of volition in
> > affecting events.
> >        Generally, the primary sense of
> > 'ownership' is that of control. If a
> > person supposedly owns a business, but most of
> > what the business does is
> > controlled by the government, then that person's
> > "ownership" is little more
> > than ownership in name only. The fact that
> > volition has only limited contol
> > over "ones" body and mind is used in the Dhamma
> > as one means of showing lack
> > of ownership. It is a means of pointing out
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4075 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:07am
Subject: Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 

> There can be no direct insight- even for the sukkha vipassaka at
> any stage of the path - including well before sotapanna unless
> there is sammasamadhi: the factor of wisdom needs support from
> saati and samadhi. But this samadhi arises together with
> sammaditthi and other factors of the eightfactored path. In the
> case of the sukkhavipassaka the sammasamadhi is sometimes
> referred to as khanika-samadhi (momentary samadhi) as it only
> lasts during the moments of insight into whatever paramattha
> dhammas are being insighted. 

Hi Robert, thank you again very much for your insights. As I was 
rooting around for more on this I found this great description of it 
from Mahasi Sayadaw, in his commentary to the Dhammachakkapavattana 
Sutta. Look for item #66 "Explanation on Insight Momentary 
Concentration." Also very interesting stuff on "The Path of Right 
Concentration."

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//dhamack3.htm

Mahasi Sayadaw mentions "This access concentration, as explained in 
the Great Subcommentary of Visuddhi Magga, is not in the 
neighbourhood of any appana samadhi (absorption concentration) and, 
as such, is not a true Access concentration. Nevertheless, since it 
is akin to access concentration in its capacity in overcoming the 
hindrances and producing tranquillity, it assumes the name of access 
concentration by virtue of identity in capacities."

So it appears that this "vipassanakhanika samadhi" is quite a 
different animal from the sort of samadhi arising in jhana. This is 
exactly one of this things that had tripped me up in discussions of 
vipassana-yanika practice. So what this is saying to me is this is a 
technically different type of "samadhi" that performs the same 
function as samadhi arising in jhana, even though it isn't the same 
thing. Does this make sense to your understanding?

 
4076 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: suttas about death (to comfort)

 
  Dear Jina

Thank you for your wishes.
I appreciate this straight, simple practice of metta.

Love and respect

Cybele

>From: jinavamsa
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: suttas about death (to comfort)
>Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 06:13:13 -0000
>
>--- "cybele chiodi" 
>wrote:
> >
>thank you Cybele. I hope you have a good stay in London.
>Jinavamsa
>
>
> > Dear Jinavamsa
> >
> > Thank you for your kindness in recollecting this sutta, it's also
>one of my
> > favourites.
> > I am just arrived in London but before going to my hotel I stopped
>by to
> > check my mail.
> > It has been suggested indeed but i am grateful the same for your
>interest.
> >
> > Love and respect
> > Cybele
> >


 
4077 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 9:44am
Subject: Re: On Right View (jina)

 
  hello Robert, 
a poem then! please send it on directly (well, when you wish)! 
jinavamsa

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> 
> --- jinavamsa wrote : (about tipitaka)
> > hello dear Amara, 
> > ah, yes, to draw from one well and taste its waters as 
> > refreshing and clarifying is to give us grounded reason
> > to return to that well. 
> > jinavamsa (glad to be returning).
> 
> > 
> Thanks for the nice turn of phrase. I like to think that even a
> philistine like myself can appreciate poetic writing as I age.
> rob
> 

 
4078 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 9:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View & Right Concentration

 
  Erik

> I was thinking about this, and that of course
> sammasamadhi entails 
> jhana, and can we do away with a single one of the
> aspects of the 
> Eightfold Path? The "dry insight" route seems to
> suggest that we do 
> not need to cultiave this part of the Eightfold
> path. Can anyone tell 
> me if I am misunderstanding something about this?
> Would "dry insight" 
> mean there's no need to cultivate sammasamadhi?

You are perhaps equating the description of the
factors of the Eightfold Path with the development of
understanding that leads to the arising of those
factors.  This is a common but (in my view) mistaken
assumption.

The description of the factors of the Eightfold Path
is just that - a description of the functions of the
eight cetasikas that constitute the path.  Those
functions are unique to those path moments.  That is
to say, the same cetasikas arising at other moments
lack the particlar noble qualities there described.

It is the development of the mundane path moments that
leads to the eventual arising of supramundane path
moments.  A moment of true satipatthana, in which 5 of
the path-factor cetasikas (including samma-samadhi)
arise, is a moment of mundane path consciousness.

Jon


 
4079 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 9:51am
Subject: Re: Hello <Rikpa on the burning bldg.>

 
  hello Rikpa and all, 
Ah, yes, the building is burning, indeed. This may not be the 
time, then, to develop the patience of an ox (to stay dumbly
in a situation that calls for a movement elsewhere), as one 
Thai teacher put it. 
The stress on putting this great energy into the task here 
for some reason reminds me of the story of the middle way, 
neither too tense that the string breaks, nor so relaxed that
the string does not vibrate at all. (The metaphor is of a 
vînâ or stringed instrument on the `ud/viola/guitar model.) 
play away then! (seriously, please). 
jinavamsa



--- Erik wrote:
> 
> A really great post, Amara, and very instructive to me, and I have a 
> couple of comments:
> 
> > When I said nibbnana was not something I would experience in this 
> life 
> > I was being pessimistic, I suppose, since according to the 
> > commentaries in the third millenium of the sasana enlightenment is 
> > possible up to the stage of the anagami.  
> 
> A couple of question here. What teachings in Lord Buddha's Dhamma 
> suggests this sort of pessimism is beneficial and connected with the 
> Goal? Is this type of pessimism in accord with the first indriya and 
> bala, for example?
> 
> > Nibbana 
> > needs very specific conditions , especially panna of power to 
> arise, 
> > it is clearly not for me in this lifetime, I don't think.  But at 
> > least I am accumulating the right conditions for it to happen 
> sometime 
> > in the future, according to the Tipitaka.
> 
> Another few questions. Did Lord Buddha teach accumulating merit for 
> the sake of our next lives, or for release here & now? Is it the 
> purpose of the Dhamma to create favorable conditions for the next 
> life if we are able to study and practice the Dhamma with the aim of 
> release in this life? (and forget what is said about arahat being 
> impossible today: none of us can possibly know, and in absence of 
> clear proof I see no reason to believe we can't). Can you even be 
> certain that you will have all the conditions in your next life to 
> practice the Dhamma? Also, what better opportunity could you imagine 
> than right here and now? What better teachers can you hope to find 
> than the ones you have right now?
> 
> If we still have hopes for anything in this or a next life, then my 
> teachers have said we need to cultivate renunciation. As Dan noted 
in 
> another post, this isn't as much fun as other things, like talking 
> about paramattha dhammas and the like. But it is much more central; 
> it is a prerequisite to effective practice of Dhamma. I see no way 
to 
> practice Dhamma without a foundation in the renunciation that 
refuses 
> to work for a next life, but endeavours to work for release in this 
> life.
> 
> Without renunciation it is very hard to do practice any Dhamma 
> instruction, because the motivation is not there to practice.  
> Without renunciation viriya has few conditions to arise. Why bother 
> if samsara doen't seem like all that bad of a place, or that samsara 
> is a place we might like to hang out in for awhile? 
> 
> My teachers have instructed me that our Dhamma practice should be 
> done as if we are in a burning building with only one thought: to 
get 
> out as quickly as possible. To do this we must have total confidence 
> (saddha) that we can escape this burning building here and now. If 
we 
> don't, then we will never apply the appropriate effort to the 
> problem, and die in agony. It is really this black and white, Amara. 
> We must have total confidence that the word of the Buddha can 
> liberate us here & now if we resolutely work toward it by learning 
> the inner meaning of his instructions. 
> 
> I suggest that thinking about paramattha dhammas and the like is no 
> help at all unless there is already the burning inner resolve to 
> escape the torments of samasara. And also, to know that as in the 
> simile of the sea-turtle and wooden ring, if we allow ourselve to 
"go 
> with the flow" of the kilesas and work for an imaginary "future 
> life," or give in to hindrances like vicikicca about the Buddha, 
> Dhamma, Sangha, we may have to experience aeons of suffering before 
> ever finding the Dhamma again. In terms of the indriyas and balas, 
we 
> must have both saddha and viriya as the condition for the arising of 
> sati, samadhi, and panna. And Viriya cannot come without very strong 
> renunciation and saddha.

 
4080 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 10:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello

 
  Erik

> Without renunciation it is very hard to do practice
> any Dhamma 
> instruction, because the motivation is not there to
> practice.  
> Without renunciation viriya has few conditions to
> arise. Why bother 
> if samsara doen't seem like all that bad of a place,
> or that samsara 
> is a place we might like to hang out in for awhile? 

Renunciation in the sense you seem to be using it is a
somewhat simplistic notion of nekkhamma.  It might be
better to think of it in terms of renunciation of
attachment of all kinds.  I believe it is in this
sense that it is considered an aspect of Right Thought
of the Eightfold Path

> My teachers have instructed me that our Dhamma
> practice should be 
> done as if we are in a burning building with only
> one thought: to get 
> out as quickly as possible. To do this we must have
> total confidence 
> (saddha) that we can escape this burning building
> here and now. If we 
> don't, then we will never apply the appropriate
> effort to the 
> problem, and die in agony.

We are all agreed about the urgency.  But what was the
exact way taught by the Buddha?  You may consider that
you have found a functional equivalent, but you run
the risk of being wrong.  Is it a risk worth taking?

> I suggest that thinking about paramattha dhammas and
> the like is no 
> help at all unless there is already the burning
> inner resolve to 
> escape the torments of samasara.

The two are not mutually exclusive, I suggest,
especially  if the former is a necessary part of the
escape path!

Jon


 
4081 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 10:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Dear Erik,
Yes that is pretty much how it seems to me. All samadhi as
ekagata cetasika has certain universal characteristics.  But the
samadhi of samattha(concentration practice) takes the same
object repeatedly whereas khanika samadhi does not.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> 
> > There can be no direct insight- even for the sukkha
> vipassaka at
> > any stage of the path - including well before sotapanna
> unless
> > there is sammasamadhi: the factor of wisdom needs support
> from
> > saati and samadhi. But this samadhi arises together with
> > sammaditthi and other factors of the eightfactored path. In
> the
> > case of the sukkhavipassaka the sammasamadhi is sometimes
> > referred to as khanika-samadhi (momentary samadhi) as it
> only
> > lasts during the moments of insight into whatever paramattha
> > dhammas are being insighted. 
> 
> Hi Robert, thank you again very much for your insights. As I
> was 
> rooting around for more on this I found this great description
> of it 
> from Mahasi Sayadaw, in his commentary to the
> Dhammachakkapavattana 
> Sutta. Look for item #66 "Explanation on Insight Momentary 
> Concentration." Also very interesting stuff on "The Path of
> Right 
> Concentration."
> 
> http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//dhamack3.htm
> 
> Mahasi Sayadaw mentions "This access concentration, as
> explained in 
> the Great Subcommentary of Visuddhi Magga, is not in the 
> neighbourhood of any appana samadhi (absorption concentration)
> and, 
> as such, is not a true Access concentration. Nevertheless,
> since it 
> is akin to access concentration in its capacity in overcoming
> the 
> hindrances and producing tranquillity, it assumes the name of
> access 
> concentration by virtue of identity in capacities."
> 
> So it appears that this "vipassanakhanika samadhi" is quite a 
> different animal from the sort of samadhi arising in jhana.
> This is 
> exactly one of this things that had tripped me up in
> discussions of 
> vipassana-yanika practice. So what this is saying to me is
> this is a 
> technically different type of "samadhi" that performs the same
> 
> function as samadhi arising in jhana, even though it isn't the
> same 
> thing. Does this make sense to your understanding?
> 



 
4082 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 10:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Dan

Very nice to have you back, with your eloquent and
forthright posts.

I am way behind on replies and comments of my own on
this thread, but have been enjoying reading the lively
exchanges very much.

May I just come in on the point about the different
'vehicles' of insight.

1.  It's not a question of choosing one vehicle or the
other.  Noone can ever know (a) whether they will
achieve enlightenmet, (b) if they do, when it will be
achieved, or (c) whether jhana will be a basis for the
moment of insight.  The vehicle thing is an ex post
facto analysis.

2.  I can assure you that giving priority in this
lifetime to learing about and developing panna at the
level of satipatthana does not connote any lack of
interest in developing panna at the level of samatha
and all the other levels of kusala.  On the contrary,
the understanding of the essence of the teaching gives
greater insight into the means and the benefits of
developing all the other levels of kusala.

Jon

> Have no doubts about the legitimacy of "dry insight"
> as truly 
> sufficient for liberation. First, the idea of it
> makes sense: 
> Liberation comes when insight into dhammas is keen
> enough. 
> Second, sukkhavipassaka arahants make their
> appearance in the suttas 
> and commentaries. And third, the viability of
> sukkhavipassaka is 
> clearly suggested in the Abhidhamma. So it is a
> legitimate 
> vehicle. The question is how much that matters. 
> 
> Contrary to how it appears at first glance (e.g. as
> expounded in 
> Mahasi's approach), the dry insight vehicle is
> incredibly difficult to 
> drive, and I would suspect that it is appropriate
> only for those with 
> unusually solid accumulations of merit. That
> excludes me. 
> 
> One danger of trying to drive the vehicle is that it
> is easy to get 
> all wrapped up in the idea of "progress of insight"
> before that 
> insight starts to take hold. At some point, one
> learns to recognize 
> what is and what is not insight. The mind starts to
> imagine: "Oh what 
> a wonderful thing this insight is. How liberating it
> can be! All 
> that is truly necessary can be accomplished by
> wondrous insight." This 
> is all very true, but the unconcentrated and
> unrestrained mind doesn't 
> stop there: "Only insight matters. Cultivating
> samadhi is not 
> important. Cultivating sila is not important. When
> insight is strong 
> enough, sila and samadhi of necessity will be
> perfected. Those people 
> who cultivate sila and samadhi and TRY to cultivate
> pañña are 
> deluded. They sit like statues; they try to keep the
> precepts; they 
> try to cultivate calm. They don't realize that only
> insight matters. 
> Merit is only an obstacle to the true practice
> because liberation 
> involves transcending both the wholesome and
> unwholesome." This skit 
> is of course hyperbole, but aversion to merit is
> most certainly a 
> danger to a dry-insight worker. There's a wonderful
> sutta where Buddha 
> exhorts bhikkhus not to fear merit. I wish I could
> find it again...




 
4083 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 10:34am
Subject: Re: Hello

 
  > I have a 
> couple of comments:
> 
> > When I said nibbnana was not something I would experience in this 
> life 
> > I was being pessimistic, I suppose, since according to the 
> > commentaries in the third millenium of the sasana enlightenment is 
> > possible up to the stage of the anagami.  
> 
> A couple of question here. What teachings in Lord Buddha's Dhamma 
> suggests this sort of pessimism is beneficial and connected with the 
> Goal? Is this type of pessimism in accord with the first indriya and 
> bala, for example?


Dear Erik,

Now you have me wondering!  How did you manage to read 

'this sort of pessimism is beneficial and connected with the Goal? Is 
this type of pessimism in accord with the first indriya and bala, for 
example?'

into my 'When I said nibbnana was not something I would experience in 
this life I was being pessimistic, I suppose'

Is this one of your debating skills?  I call it twisting people's 
words to fit your own understandings, and it doesn't condone to 
understanding what others are saying, just projecting your own words 
any which way you please.  What could you possibly learn from this 
line of 'debate'?


> > Nibbana 
> > needs very specific conditions , especially panna of power to 
> arise, 
> > it is clearly not for me in this lifetime, I don't think.  But at 
> > least I am accumulating the right conditions for it to happen 
> sometime 
> > in the future, according to the Tipitaka.
> 
> Another few questions. Did Lord Buddha teach accumulating merit for 
> the sake of our next lives, or for release here & now? Is it the 
> purpose of the Dhamma to create favorable conditions for the next 
> life if we are able to study and practice the Dhamma with the aim of 
> release in this life? (and forget what is said about arahat being 
> impossible today: none of us can possibly know, and in absence of 
> clear proof I see no reason to believe we can't). Can you even be 
> certain that you will have all the conditions in your next life to 
> practice the Dhamma? Also, what better opportunity could you imagine 
> than right here and now? What better teachers can you hope to find 
> than the ones you have right now?


You think you can find a better one than the Buddha then you're 
welcome to stop calling yourself a 'Buddhist'.  What's in a title any 
way, why not be frank and call your teachers by their names?  
 
> If we still have hopes for anything in this or a next life, then my 
> teachers have said we need to cultivate renunciation. As Dan noted 

in 
> another post, this isn't as much fun as other things, like talking 
> about paramattha dhammas and the like. But it is much more central; 
> it is a prerequisite to effective practice of Dhamma. I see no way 

to 
> practice Dhamma without a foundation in the renunciation that 

refuses 
> to work for a next life, but endeavours to work for release in this 
> life.

Then you should study the Tipitaka more, you will see that 
'renunciation' comes automatically with attainments and it is no use 
to convince yourself that that is an easy task.  The Buddha taught 
that it is something extremely difficult with all the eons of 
accumulated akusala behind us; even he had to accumulate an eternity 
of panna to become enlightened.  Is it reasonable to think that your 
teachers are greater teachers than the Buddha?  He already showed us 
the way out and you are saying you see no other way out but your 
teachers'?  Do you people still call yourselves Buddhist?  Apparently 
not since you don't study the Tipitaka, but prefer other texts.

> Without renunciation it is very hard to do practice any Dhamma 
> instruction, because the motivation is not there to practice.  
> Without renunciation viriya has few conditions to arise. Why bother 
> if samsara doen't seem like all that bad of a place, or that samsara 
> is a place we might like to hang out in for awhile? 
> 
> My teachers have instructed me that our Dhamma practice should be 
> done as if we are in a burning building with only one thought: to 

get 
> out as quickly as possible. To do this we must have total confidence 
> (saddha) that we can escape this burning building here and now. If 

we 
> don't, then we will never apply the appropriate effort to the 
> problem, and die in agony. It is really this black and white, Amara. 
> We must have total confidence that the word of the Buddha can 
> liberate us here & now if we resolutely work toward it by learning 
> the inner meaning of his instructions. 
> 
> I suggest that thinking about paramattha dhammas and the like is no 
> help at all unless there is already the burning inner resolve to 
> escape the torments of samasara. And also, to know that as in the 
> simile of the sea-turtle and wooden ring, if we allow ourselve to 
>
"go 
> with the flow" of the kilesas and work for an imaginary "future 
> life," or give in to hindrances like vicikicca about the Buddha, 
> Dhamma, Sangha, we may have to experience aeons of suffering before 
> ever finding the Dhamma again. In terms of the indriyas and balas, 

we 
> must have both saddha and viriya as the condition for the arising of 
> sati, samadhi, and panna. And Viriya cannot come without very strong 
> renunciation and saddha.

Well, good luck, and I hope you send us news when you have attained 
nibbana!  It seems that you have found a path that fits you like a 
glove; I wonder why you wanted to study the abhidhamma in the first 
place? Was it to convert everyone else by trying to teach instead of 
to study?  In which case I am not interested in something so verbose 
and without solid foundation that I can prove now.  Can you teach me 
about what I see now?  Can your methods tell me what panna knows at 
the present instant instead of all that abstract verbiage?

 
4084 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 6:34am
Subject: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, all -

       I have read the Interview on the web site, and I'm a bit perplexed. In 
this interview she speaks against formal meditation whether for the purpose 
of inducing calm or for the cultivation of insight. This seems to be at 
variance with the Buddha's teaching of anapanasati, a formal meditation 
technique, as a vehicle for working on the four foundations of mindfulness, 
and which can take one all the way to the end of the path. It has been 
commented on by many, many Theravadin monks and meditation teachers. This 
formal meditative practice is presented in the Anapanasati Sutta in the 
Majjhima Nikaya. It can be found on Access to Insight at the address 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html. Does anyone have 
any comments on this?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4085 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Dear Howard,
A one page interview can't properly represent anyones thinking.
Especially on Dhamma. If you read more of her writings you will
see she doesn't discount the possibilty of anyone developing
anapanasati. However in accordance with the ancients she notes
that it is a sublime object and can be misunderstood. One may be
focus on breath but it may be with very subtle attachment and
one might not realise this. The feeling will be calm but not
necessarily of kusala. Even if it is developed correctly it is
not neccesarily a faster way to develop the eightfold path. 
It is complex. What is the difference between breath as an
object for samattha or for vipassana for instance?
Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii 
211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is
successful 
only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation 
subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on
giving it 
his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, 
difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of
Buddhas, 
paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial
matter, 
nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." 

One needs to look into it very carefully.  If one sincerely
feels that this is the object that they want to use to develop
samattha then of course they will do so. However, I think it is
not wrong  of anyone to point out the difficulties. Also it
takes special circumstances to develop it. Seclusion, silence
and long application among them.  
rob 
 
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, all -
> 
>        I have read the Interview on the web site, and I'm a
> bit perplexed. In 
> this interview she speaks against formal meditation whether
> for the purpose 
> of inducing calm or for the cultivation of insight. This seems
> to be at 
> variance with the Buddha's teaching of anapanasati, a formal
> meditation 
> technique, as a vehicle for working on the four foundations of
> mindfulness, 
> and which can take one all the way to the end of the path. It
> has been 
> commented on by many, many Theravadin monks and meditation
> teachers. This 
> formal meditative practice is presented in the Anapanasati
> Sutta in the 
> Majjhima Nikaya. It can be found on Access to Insight at the
> address 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html. Does
> anyone have 
> any comments on this?
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                
>             
>                                          



 
 
4086 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, Robert -

       Thank you for the following clear explanation. It happens that 
anapanasati is my main formal meditation practice, and I have found it a 
fruitful one both for samatha and vipassana bhavana, but I agree that it is a 
subtle practice, one which I had great difficulty with for quite a while. As 
you point out below, quoting from the Visuddhimagga, it is rather different 
from other meditation subjects because, with the onset of calm, the breath 
becomes more subtle, and, accordingly, more difficult to follow clearly. But 
this can be an advantage, because to maintain clarity, one must then 
intensify ones concentration, mindfulness, and energy. It is demanding, but 
can also be rewarding.
       

In a message dated 3/16/01 11:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> Dear Howard,
> A one page interview can't properly represent anyones thinking.
> Especially on Dhamma. If you read more of her writings you will
> see she doesn't discount the possibilty of anyone developing
> anapanasati. However in accordance with the ancients she notes
> that it is a sublime object and can be misunderstood. One may be
> focus on breath but it may be with very subtle attachment and
> one might not realise this. The feeling will be calm but not
> necessarily of kusala. Even if it is developed correctly it is
> not neccesarily a faster way to develop the eightfold path. 
> It is complex. What is the difference between breath as an
> object for samattha or for vipassana for instance?
> Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii 
> 211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is
> successful 
> only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation 
> subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on
> giving it 
> his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, 
> difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of
> Buddhas, 
> paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial
> matter, 
> nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." 
> 
> One needs to look into it very carefully.  If one sincerely
> feels that this is the object that they want to use to develop
> samattha then of course they will do so. However, I think it is
> not wrong  of anyone to point out the difficulties. Also it
> takes special circumstances to develop it. Seclusion, silence
> and long application among them.  
> rob 
> 
==================================
Thanks again, Robert, for your very to-the-point reply.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4087 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 4:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, Howard,
I comment below:
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
>        Thank you for the following clear explanation. It
> happens that 
> anapanasati is my main formal meditation practice, and I have
> found it a 
> fruitful one both for samatha and vipassana bhavana, but I
> agree that it is a 
> subtle practice, one which I had great difficulty with for
> quite a while. As 
> you point out below, quoting from the Visuddhimagga, it is
> rather different 
> from other meditation subjects because, with the onset of
> calm, the breath 
> becomes more subtle, and, accordingly, more difficult to
> follow clearly. But 
> this can be an advantage, because to maintain clarity, one
> must then 
> intensify ones concentration, mindfulness, and energy. It is
> demanding, but 
> can also be rewarding.
_________________

It may be that it is a suitable one for you Howard. If this is
so it might be because you had developed it in past lives.
Samattha is so profound: it takes the object clearly but at the
same time is detached from the object. Sometimes people  are
developing a concentration that is actually attached to the
breath . Obviously it can be done correctly but is so useful to
learn from what the ancients had to say. 
As you  noted almost all teacher in all schools teach it as
practice for beginners these days. Partly this is because - as
the visuddhimagga- notes it is suitable for all types (that is
all types who have the accumulations for this subject) unlike
say the cemetery meditations which cause fear and dosa in some.
However, I think it is valuable that there are a few like nina
who are prepared to stand up and say "just a minute- be a little
careful on this matter- it is not as easy as it seems". Nina
explains in detail about other types of samattha  that are
considered not as sublime or difficult as anapanasati. I apply
myself to these as conditions allow.
I met a western monk some years back who had over 20rains. He
knows Ninas writing very well and agrees with her on the
difficulty of anapanasati .He told me this is well documented in
the Tipitaka. He spent so many years in the forest and his main
object was anapanasati. He eventually decided that it wasn't
suitable for him - even though in his early years it seemed to
fit. He wasn't critising the practice of it and in fact
sometimes  taught it to laypeople because of its broad appeal. 
robert



>        
> 
> In a message dated 3/16/01 11:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Robert Kirkpatrick writes:
> 
> 
> > Dear Howard,
> > A one page interview can't properly represent anyones
> thinking.
> > Especially on Dhamma. If you read more of her writings you
> will
> > see she doesn't discount the possibilty of anyone developing
> > anapanasati. However in accordance with the ancients she
> notes
> > that it is a sublime object and can be misunderstood. One
> may be
> > focus on breath but it may be with very subtle attachment
> and
> > one might not realise this. The feeling will be calm but not
> > necessarily of kusala. Even if it is developed correctly it
> is
> > not neccesarily a faster way to develop the eightfold path. 
> > It is complex. What is the difference between breath as an
> > object for samattha or for vipassana for instance?
> > Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii 
> > 211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is
> > successful 
> > only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any
> meditation 
> > subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on
> > giving it 
> > his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is
> difficult, 
> > difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of
> > Buddhas, 
> > paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no
> trivial
> > matter, 
> > nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." 
> > 
> > One needs to look into it very carefully.  If one sincerely
> > feels that this is the object that they want to use to
> develop
> > samattha then of course they will do so. However, I think it
> is
> > not wrong  of anyone to point out the difficulties. Also it
> > takes special circumstances to develop it. Seclusion,
> silence
> > and long application among them.  
> > rob 
> > 
> ==================================
> Thanks again, Robert, for your very to-the-point reply.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                
>             



 
4088 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello <Rikpa on the burning bldg.>

 
  Dear Jina

sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!

Love and respect
Cybele


>From: jinavamsa
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello <Rikpa on the burning bldg.>
>Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 01:51:24 -0000
>
>hello Rikpa and all,
>Ah, yes, the building is burning, indeed. This may not be the
>time, then, to develop the patience of an ox (to stay dumbly
>in a situation that calls for a movement elsewhere), as one
>Thai teacher put it.
>The stress on putting this great energy into the task here
>for some reason reminds me of the story of the middle way,
>neither too tense that the string breaks, nor so relaxed that
>the string does not vibrate at all. (The metaphor is of a
>vînâ or stringed instrument on the `ud/viola/guitar model.)
>play away then! (seriously, please).
>jinavamsa
>
>
>
>--- Erik wrote:
> >
> > A really great post, Amara, and very instructive to me, and I have a
> > couple of comments:
> >
> > > When I said nibbnana was not something I would experience in this
> > life
> > > I was being pessimistic, I suppose, since according to the
> > > commentaries in the third millenium of the sasana enlightenment is
> > > possible up to the stage of the anagami.
> >
> > A couple of question here. What teachings in Lord Buddha's Dhamma
> > suggests this sort of pessimism is beneficial and connected with the
> > Goal? Is this type of pessimism in accord with the first indriya and
> > bala, for example?
> >
> > > Nibbana
> > > needs very specific conditions , especially panna of power to
> > arise,
> > > it is clearly not for me in this lifetime, I don't think.  But at
> > > least I am accumulating the right conditions for it to happen
> > sometime
> > > in the future, according to the Tipitaka.
> >
> > Another few questions. Did Lord Buddha teach accumulating merit for
> > the sake of our next lives, or for release here & now? Is it the
> > purpose of the Dhamma to create favorable conditions for the next
> > life if we are able to study and practice the Dhamma with the aim of
> > release in this life? (and forget what is said about arahat being
> > impossible today: none of us can possibly know, and in absence of
> > clear proof I see no reason to believe we can't). Can you even be
> > certain that you will have all the conditions in your next life to
> > practice the Dhamma? Also, what better opportunity could you imagine
> > than right here and now? What better teachers can you hope to find
> > than the ones you have right now?
> >
> > If we still have hopes for anything in this or a next life, then my
> > teachers have said we need to cultivate renunciation. As Dan noted
>in
> > another post, this isn't as much fun as other things, like talking
> > about paramattha dhammas and the like. But it is much more central;
> > it is a prerequisite to effective practice of Dhamma. I see no way
>to
> > practice Dhamma without a foundation in the renunciation that
>refuses
> > to work for a next life, but endeavours to work for release in this
> > life.
> >
> > Without renunciation it is very hard to do practice any Dhamma
> > instruction, because the motivation is not there to practice.
> > Without renunciation viriya has few conditions to arise. Why bother
> > if samsara doen't seem like all that bad of a place, or that samsara
> > is a place we might like to hang out in for awhile?
> >
> > My teachers have instructed me that our Dhamma practice should be
> > done as if we are in a burning building with only one thought: to
>get
> > out as quickly as possible. To do this we must have total confidence
> > (saddha) that we can escape this burning building here and now. If
>we
> > don't, then we will never apply the appropriate effort to the
> > problem, and die in agony. It is really this black and white, Amara.
> > We must have total confidence that the word of the Buddha can
> > liberate us here & now if we resolutely work toward it by learning
> > the inner meaning of his instructions.
> >
> > I suggest that thinking about paramattha dhammas and the like is no
> > help at all unless there is already the burning inner resolve to
> > escape the torments of samasara. And also, to know that as in the
> > simile of the sea-turtle and wooden ring, if we allow ourselve to
>"go
> > with the flow" of the kilesas and work for an imaginary "future
> > life," or give in to hindrances like vicikicca about the Buddha,
> > Dhamma, Sangha, we may have to experience aeons of suffering before
> > ever finding the Dhamma again. In terms of the indriyas and balas,
>we
> > must have both saddha and viriya as the condition for the arising of
> > sati, samadhi, and panna. And Viriya cannot come without very strong
> > renunciation and saddha.
>


 
4089 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  > It can be found on Access to Insight at the address 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html. 


Dear Howard

Just a minor detail, the link you gave doesn't seem to work, or 
perhaps it's my browser again?

Amara

 
4090 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/17/01 10:12:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear Howard
> 
> Just a minor detail, the link you gave doesn't seem to work, or 
> perhaps it's my browser again?
> 
> Amara
> 
===================================
       I just copied and pasted the link that you just sent, and it *does* 
work. Perhaps it is your browser. If you also copied and pasted, you didn't 
include the period at the end of my sentence as part of the url, did you? If 
you did, that might have messed it up.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4091 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 0:59am
Subject: Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  >        I just copied and pasted the link that you just sent, and it 
*does* 
> work. 

Thank you, Howard,

Found it, appreciated, especially the kaya- vedana- citta- and 
dhamma-nupassana towards the end.

Signing off for now,

Amara

 
4092 From: azita gill   
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4092?expand=1

 
  hi, dhamma friends, I have been reading a lot of the
questions and answers on insight, as meditation
subject and as subject for everyday use(so to speak).
I know very little about mediation in fact, so I
cannot comment with any degree of experience, but the
common-old-garden-variety Sati i have been learning
about for a long time.  I remember Khun Sujin's
regular comment to us in our discussion groups
was"what is your reality now?  Is it seeing, hearing,
tasting, touching, smelling or thinking?"  those
words, along with many others, have helped me thro.
lots of situations.  This is a very practical life
skill for me.  I am happy to have connected with
dhamma friends again,          Metta,  Azita  


 
4093 From: Num 
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 9:08am
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4093?expand=1

 
  Hi Azita,

My name is Num. Nice to hear that studying dhamma has been very helpful to 
you.  Me too, I really appreciate and admire the Buddha teaching and his 
wisdom.

Are you from the land down under?

Welcome to dsg.

Num

 
4094 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 4:30pm
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4094?expand=1

 
  > hi, dhamma friends, I have been reading a lot of the
> questions and answers on insight, as meditation
> subject and as subject for everyday use(so to speak).
> I know very little about mediation in fact, so I
> cannot comment with any degree of experience, but the
> common-old-garden-variety Sati i have been learning
> about for a long time.  I remember Khun Sujin's
> regular comment to us in our discussion groups
> was"what is your reality now?  Is it seeing, hearing,
> tasting, touching, smelling or thinking?"  those
> words, along with many others, have helped me thro.
> lots of situations.  This is a very practical life
> skill for me.  I am happy to have connected with
> dhamma friends again,          Metta,  Azita  
> 
> 
Hi, Azita!

So glad to have another non-meditation-literate friend in the group!  
Looking forward to your contributions very much indeed,

Amara 


 
4095 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 7:19pm
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4095?expand=1

 
  Azita,

I'm really thrilled to see that you've joined us and
look forward to hearing more from you.

All- Azita was one of the original dsg (then Helen
Gill in case Azita doesn't ring a bell w/ the oldies)
and I first met her (along w/her baby Zoe) at the same
time I first met Jon & Amara (in Sri Lanka in the late
70s).

Azita, I haven't seen you for 20yrs and it's good to
resume (dhamma) contact.

This short message has jumped the queue of all the
others I'm hoping to reply to... (Actually Sun eve is
Jon's turn on the computer, so I must sign off now!)

metta and lobha hugs,
Sarah

p.s. If you're in touch w/the other oldies from Down
Under, please encourage them to join us too!




 
4096 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 7:57pm
Subject: Re: On Right View (Jon)

 
  Hi Jon,
About the 'vehicles' you wrote:
> 1.  It's not a question of choosing one vehicle or the
> other.  Noone can ever know (a) whether they will
> achieve enlightenmet, (b) if they do, when it will be
> achieved, or (c) whether jhana will be a basis for the
> moment of insight.  The vehicle thing is an ex post
> facto analysis.
Granted. But direct cultivation of samadhi and sila is very helpful, 
not only in a mundane kusala sort of way (this, not to be 
underestimated), but also in supporting development of insight. 

As Lord Buddha said: "Without overcoming [the five nivarana], it is 
impossible for a monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to 
know his own true good, the good of others, and the good of both; nor 
will he be capable of realizing that superhuman state of disticntive 
achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of 
sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and 
hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, then 
it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own true 
good, the good of others..." (AN 5:51).

Direct cultivation of samadhi and sila via formal practice help to 
overcome nivarana, which is essential for insight to arise. This 
certainly does not mean that insight can only arise while sitting, but  
that we must constantly be on guard against allowing disdain for 
samadhi and sila take hold because we believe in the ultimate efficacy 
of insight.

You also write:
> 2.  I can assure you that giving priority in this
> lifetime to learing about and developing panna at the
> level of satipatthana does not connote any lack of
> interest in developing panna at the level of samatha
> and all the other levels of kusala.  On the contrary,
> the understanding of the essence of the teaching gives
> greater insight into the means and the benefits of
> developing all the other levels of kusala.

Thanks for the assurances. I'm confused, though. What does "at the 
level of" mean? I usually think of "level" in terms of depth, but that 
doesn't seem to make any sense here. Also, I'm not sure what you mean 
by "understanding of the essence of the teaching". 

The anusaya are not easy to see.

 
4097 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 0:07am
Subject: To Amara, et. al.

 
  Amara, I'm not sure how a bit of encouragement to abandon one of the 
hindrances from fellow sangha-member could be the cause for a reply 
that denigrates an entire tradition of the Buddha's Dharma. I was 
surprised to see the things you wrote, actually, because I can assure 
you my words were spoken without the slightest degree of ill-will. 
Quite the contrary. It appears you are unwilling to listen to 
anything from someone who you've made very plain is studying in a 
system you believe (completely absent any evidence, I should add) is 
anariyan-dhamma, even though everything I said you can find in the 
Tipitaka. Here's something regarding effort you may accept, though:

http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6c.htm

You also suggested I may have a hidden agenda to "convert" people 
here. Let me just point out how silly this idea is. First of all, I 
have been clear I accept the Tipitaka as the word of the Buddha. In 
fact, on this point I have no doubts whatsoever. I also know, and 
have made plain, that everyone has vastly different accumulations, 
and as such, we each need practices most suited to our own 
inclinations and abilities. Knowing these two things, Amara, why 
would you say I'm here to "convert" anyone? First of all, what would 
I "convert" someone to? The Buddhadharma? Second, why would I 
knowingly interfere with another's karma to have connected with the 
teachings of the Tipitaka? That would betray a really poor 
understanding of how this stuff works, wouldn't it?

That you suggest this is even more absurd in light of the fact I 
didn't seek this list out in the first place. As I recall, I sent an 
email to you and I described who I was, my background, and that I was 
looking to be put in touch with Khun Sujim, who I had been directed 
to by the monks at Wat Mahatat, quite independent of anyone here. It 
was your suggestion I participate here, not mine, and I did so with 
reservations because in your "invitation" letter you made it quite 
plain you did not respect anything other than the letter of Tipitaka 
(similar mention of the meaning of the Dharma itself was absent from 
this). My initial reservations were confirmed by the entirely 
unfounded and sectarian nature of the discussions relating to the 
Tibetan Buddhist Dharma elsewhere, as well as your first few posts.

Amara, you're perfectly entitled to your beliefs about what 
constitutes Dharma and adharma. But, I will say, I know of nothing 
that suggests it is appropriate to publicly denigrate something you 
lack a basis to judge, and you do, since you lack, by your own 
admission, both insight into the Dharma and knowledge of that system 
(Vajrayana) as it's intended to be learned. This type of sectarianism 
has no place among those serious about studying the Buddha's Dharma, 
who are truly intent on getting out of samsara. I am explicitly here 
to learn the Buddha's Dharma from the Tipitaka's perspective, as I 
have said. My wish is to study it as dispassionately as possible, 
because I'm here to uncover its inner meaning. That will, however, 
require I be able to discuss my understanding with others without the 
presence of harsh or divisive speech from any of the participants 
here. I have to ask myself again if my presence will increase net 
kusala or net akusala. At the moment, for a few members here I 
imagine it increasing akusala, though I have been extremely 
encouraged by the truly wise, insightful, enlightening, and non-
dogmatic responses of those who seem more concerned about the actual 
meaning of the Dharma rather than the presentation of same.

Seriously, I am quite disappointed that some senior students of the 
Tipitaka could be so easily intimidated by a little pissant Vajrayani 
(and beginner in Abhidhamma to boot) who hasn't even clocked ten 
years of Buddhist studies! Seriously, is all this knowledge about the 
Abhidhamma insufficient to point out where I might have a mistaken 
view? Of course not. And if the good folks here can't show me where I 
might have mistaken understanding, then no one in this world can. And 
I am 100% open to being SHOWN via scripture and reasoning (recall I 
accept the Tipitaka as 100% Lord Buddha's word, so this should be 
very easy for you) where I might hold a wrong view about something. 
Can you imagine a better opportunity than the one you presently have 
to straighten what is crooked (if it is fact bent in the first 
place)? The question is, can you handle this without losing your cool 
and denigrating that which doesn't conform to your prejudices? If you 
say yes, then if you have a disagreement with anything I say from 
here out, that you point out doctrinal specifics and we can discuss 
them, in detail, if necessary. With the spirit of open-mindedness and 
metta all the way. That, I think, would do more to reveal the meaning 
of the Dharma and help us ALL get out of samsara far quicker than any 
kind of divisive or uncharitable speech. 

I would prefer to stick around an benefit from the wisdom of the 
Theras present here. But, I do not feel comfortable doing so in the 
presence of unconcealed disdain or even outright hostility. You are 
welcome to email me privately to discuss any issues. I posted this 
publicly becaue there are others who have expressed views similar to 
your own.

Your true friend in the Dhamma,
Erik

 
4098 From: Num 
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al.

 
  Hi Erik,

I don't think I have enough time to respond to the issue, I have to go 
playing tennis.  I just like to share some of my opinion, I will write more 
regarding the issues, which you brought up.

First of all, it's very nice of you Erik, that you share with the group your 
feeling, your thought and your opinion, esp in your last mail to K.Amara. I 
always say that there is no secret between friend, esp Kalayanamitta.  Let me 
say that opinion is opinion.  At this point I can say only that communication 
is esp writing is always an easy subject for miscommunication.    I have to 
go, but if I may encourage you to stay with dsg and hang in here.  Be 
patient.  I am pretty optimistic as well as realistic, and I am certain that 
you have learned sth from the discussion.  

If I may ask all the group members, K.Amara and you, Erik, to keep the 
discussion regarding this matter public.   I hope that open discussion, 
different opinions from different perspective will give us the least 
miscommunication.   


Good to have you on board with us, Erik.  Hang in there, we will all learn 
sth together.


Have to go.


Num

 
4099 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 7:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al.

 
  Dear Erik,

I agree with Num...We all appreciate having your
excellent contributions, comments and questions. The
list has been so active that there are bound to be
times when we all get rather impatient and write
comments that are not very appropriate. We all
(including me) need to learn more about respect for
others' views and patience with others.

Actually, Erik, we're all beginners on this path. What
are 20 or 30 yers in samsara? How many lifetimes have
we been accumulating wrong view? Don't expect too much
of us and I hope we can all continue helping each
other.

Actually, for my part, I've appreciated understanding
more about the Tibetan teachings and your way of
seeing the Tipitaka too.

Hang in there and have a go as Num says and don't get
too caught up with the odd comment that is
disappointing to you. We're all doing our best, given
our limitations of ignorance and other kilesa!

Have to go too!

Sarah

p.s. hoping to hear back from you on my last post on
right view and 'the all'...(when you have time of
course!)




 
4100 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:44am
Subject: Self / Not self

 
  Hi all,

I must admit to major confusion. I confess I have not read through the
entire database and found all the relevant allusions to the problem I have.
Forbearance, please. My problem are these:

If there is no self, and there is belief in no-self, why is just about every
post here and elsewhere phrased in the language of self? (meaning I , me ,
you, them etc). What is meant when an email announces " I this....." "You
that"?

Taking it further, is there not a positive definition of not-self that can
be used? How is it that a not-characteristic is considered a pervasive
characteristic of all realities?

Nobody says "this is not-fish" or "that is not-green". Why do we say
not-self? What is the opposite or the compliment of not-self ?



Regards


Herman

 
 
4101 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  Erik

Thanks for the reference from Mahasi Sayadaw on this
topic (yr messge below).  You might also be interestd
in a reference from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (in
translation as 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma',
BPS) a text which, as i am sure you would know, is of
very long standing and which is regarded as highly
authorative in the Pali tradition.  (This is copied
from an earlier message of mine, but I think bears
repeating - apologies to others if the repetition is
not appreciated).

The passage that follows is directly from CMA Ch. I,
Guide to ##30-31).  The numbers in square brackets are
markers to comments of mu own at the end.

===============================
All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight
into the three characteristics of impermanence,
suffering, and non-self. [1] 

However, they differ among themselves in the degree of
their development of concentration (samadhi).  Those
who develop insight without a basis of jhana are
called practitioners of bare insight
(sukkhavipassaka). [2]  When they reach the path and
fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
corresponding to the first jhana. [3]

Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain
a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of
jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ...

For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
and because they possess the jhana factors with an
intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
mundane jhanas. [4]  

The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ
from the mundane jhanas in several important respects.
[5]  

First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object
some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the
supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the
unconditioned reality. [5.1]  
Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
defilements while leaving their underlying seeds
intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate
defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2]
Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the
fine material world and thus sustain existence in the
round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the
fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in
liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] 
Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
===================================

Notes:
1.  It is the development of understanding of the
characteristics of reality that leads to the
attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta
(magga citta).
2.  Development of concentration to the level of jhana
is not necessary for attaining magga citta.
3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
experiences its object with same full absorption and
intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
5.  There are, however, 4 important differences
between jhana citta and the path citta –
5.1.   The object of jhana citta is a concept , while
the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
5.2.   Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while
magga citta eradicates kilesa.
5.3.   Jhana cittas are a condition for future
rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation
from the cycle of birth and death.
5.4.   The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
citta is the degree of concentration on the object at
that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of
magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths.

Jon

> Hi Robert, thank you again very much for your
> insights. As I was 
> rooting around for more on this I found this great
> description of it 
> from Mahasi Sayadaw, in his commentary to the
> Dhammachakkapavattana 
> Sutta. Look for item #66 "Explanation on Insight
> Momentary 
> Concentration." Also very interesting stuff on "The
> Path of Right 
> Concentration."
> 
> http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//dhamack3.htm
> 
> Mahasi Sayadaw mentions "This access concentration,
> as explained in 
> the Great Subcommentary of Visuddhi Magga, is not in
> the 
> neighbourhood of any appana samadhi (absorption
> concentration) and, 
> as such, is not a true Access concentration.
> Nevertheless, since it 
> is akin to access concentration in its capacity in
> overcoming the 
> hindrances and producing tranquillity, it assumes
> the name of access 
> concentration by virtue of identity in capacities."
> 
> So it appears that this "vipassanakhanika samadhi"
> is quite a 
> different animal from the sort of samadhi arising in
> jhana. This is 
> exactly one of this things that had tripped me up in
> discussions of 
> vipassana-yanika practice. So what this is saying to
> me is this is a 
> technically different type of "samadhi" that
> performs the same 
> function as samadhi arising in jhana, even though it
> isn't the same 
> thing. Does this make sense to your understanding?




 
4102 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 11:19am
Subject: Re: To Amara, et. al.

 
  > Amara, I'm not sure how a bit of encouragement to abandon one of the 
> hindrances from fellow sangha-member

Dear Erik,

Are you a member of the sangha?  I certainly am not, did you know the 
word at first intended the ariya-puggala and later extended to those 
ordained.  But you tend to throw terms like this, and even 'thera' 
about quite blissfully and then be surprised when people react to 
them.  Why don't you learn the true meaning of things first?  This and 
twisting things around to serve your purposes.

> could be the cause for a reply 
> that denigrates an entire tradition of the Buddha's Dharma. 

This is another example:  Where is the evidence that I wrote anything 
like this?

>I was 
> surprised to see the things you wrote, actually, because I can 
> assure 
> you my words were spoken without the slightest degree of ill-will. 
> Quite the contrary. It appears you are unwilling to listen to 
> anything from someone who you've made very plain is studying in a 
> system you believe (completely absent any evidence, I should add) is 
> anariyan-dhamma, even though everything I said you can find in the 
> Tipitaka. 

I did not see your reference to anything but 'your teachers', and that 
'I suggest that thinking about paramattha dhamma and the like is no 
help at all unless there is already the burning inner resolve to 
escape the torments of samasara.'  The dhamma is not only for those 
who want to escape samsara, though the ultimate aim is such.  The 
Tipitaka is not so narrow.  You may have seen me saying that there is 
fire burning on our heads but it does not mean that the Tipitaka 
teaches everyone to become a bhikkhu or to live as ascetic's life, 
Erik.  The Buddha knew that people have different accumulations and 
taught them to know themselves and not to emulate others, no matter 
how admirable and enviable.  He never oversimplified things by saying 
everyone should follow him or try to become an arahanta, except for 
those with the right accumulations and he knew what each of them 
needed.  On several occasions he told people it was not necessary to 
become ordained.  There are teachings for all situations in life and 
even those he taught to thieves and people of that level, so when you 
say in your post 4062 :

'My teachers have instructed me that our Dhamma practice should be 
done as if we are in a burning building with only one thought: to get 
out as quickly as possible. To do this we must have total confidence 
(saddha) that we can escape this burning building here and now. If we 
don't, then we will never apply the appropriate effort to the problem, 
and die in agony. It is really this black and white, Amara.  We must 
have total confidence that the word of the Buddha can liberate us here 
& now if we resolutely work toward it by learning the inner meaning of 
his instructions. '

This misrepresents the nature of the dhamma that is beneficent to all, 
even those without the panna to become enlightened within this 
lifetime, saddha was never one of the required magga although it 
certainly helps one find the right teachings, preparing the way for 
sati and panna and therefore the magga.  But the magga themselves do 
not include saddha, but the five magga of satipatthana, namely samma 
ditthi (panna), sankappa (vitaka), vayama (viriya) sati (sati), and 
samadhi (ekaggata), plus the three virati that arise together only at 
each of the levels of the magga citta attainments, permanently 
eradicating kilesa of that respective level.  Don't think that saddha 
alone can take you give you panna, it is not that simple, especially 
saddha for the wrong reasons (avidity or lobha for results, for 
example) or saddha and viriya without developing panna of things as 
they really are.  Panna has to be about whatever appears at that 
instant through the six dvara, without picking and choosing, but 
thorough knowledge of all things as non self, ever changing, 
impermanent and uncontrollable.  


> Here's something regarding effort you may accept, though:
> http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6c.htm

You are welcome to try to emulate the Buddha on the night of his 
enlightenment, but do note that he never taught anyone to afterwards, 
he knew his own accumulations as well as everyone else's

> 
> You also suggested I may have a hidden agenda to "convert" people 
> here. Let me just point out how silly this idea is.

Agreed, but when you said, 'Also, what better opportunity could you 
imagine than right here and now? What better teachers can you hope to 
find than the ones you have right now? If we still have hopes for 
anything in this or a next life, then my teachers have said we need to 
cultivate renunciation.'  It sounded a lot like trying to preach or 
convert people to me.  I am very thankful that the list has an archive 
so that we can go back to see what has actually been said, by the way. 
 

> First of all, I 
> have been clear I accept the Tipitaka as the word of the Buddha. In 
> fact, on this point I have no doubts whatsoever. 
> I also know, and 
> have made plain, that everyone has vastly different accumulations, 
> and as such, we each need practices most suited to our own 
> inclinations and abilities. Knowing these two things, Amara, why 
> would you say I'm here to "convert" anyone? First of all, what would 
> I "convert" someone to? The Buddhadharma? Second, why would I 
> knowingly interfere with another's karma to have connected with the 
> teachings of the Tipitaka? That would betray a really poor 
> understanding of how this stuff works, wouldn't it?

Indeed it does.  Which is why I encouraged you to study more.  But 
your writings are improving, at least compared to your last post.  I 
suppose this is the method by which you intend to get your 'stuff', 
and will follow your progress with interest, I have never seen this 
airing of changing opinions before.  My own accumulations was to ask 
questions and try to understand, not argue and then saying others 
misunderstood your former statements.  It seems to be a form of 
musavada to me, but so long as your understanding grows.  

Still the right things would bring kusala vipaka and the wrong ones 
accordingly, so one should be careful even to the means by which one 
acquires knowledge, I think.  It also gets boring to see things 
twisted around and to have to refer to earlier statements, besides 
making it unnecessarily long and uninteresting to write, therefore for 
others to read, I should think.  

False accusations must be akusala, that is certain in any case.  I 
would suggest you not to do so just for the sake of provoking a 
reaction or even lead to an argument.  Kusala discussions are much 
more profitable for all concerned.  This is sila in daily life, and 
sati would never arise with musavada, though miccha samadhi would be 
there as ekaggata cetasika.  Panna can only arise with kusala citta, 
so examine your citta well as you write, or it might hinder panna from 
arising at that moment. Do not let written samphabalapa vaca keep you 
from panna, it is unnecessary accumulation of musavada and akusala 
citta for the future.  I am glad you wish to continue to study but I 
would suggest you use a more harmless method.  I tend to say too much 
myself, (but never musavada with false accusations or twisting of 
words, I don't think,) which is why I will try to keep this one from 
becoming another verbal flood and end here.

Anumodana to all those who study all the same, 

Amara


> That you suggest this is even more absurd in light of the fact I 
> didn't seek this list out in the first place. As I recall, I sent an 
> email to you and I described who I was, my background, and that I 
was 
> looking to be put in touch with Khun Sujim, who I had been directed 
> to by the monks at Wat Mahatat, quite independent of anyone here. It 
> was your suggestion I participate here, not mine, and I did so with 
> reservations because in your "invitation" letter you made it quite 
> plain you did not respect anything other than the letter of Tipitaka 
> (similar mention of the meaning of the Dharma itself was absent from 
> this). My initial reservations were confirmed by the entirely 
> unfounded and sectarian nature of the discussions relating to the 
> Tibetan Buddhist Dharma elsewhere, as well as your first few posts.
> 
> Amara, you're perfectly entitled to your beliefs about what 
> constitutes Dharma and adharma. But, I will say, I know of nothing 
> that suggests it is appropriate to publicly denigrate something you 
> lack a basis to judge, and you do, since you lack, by your own 
> admission, both insight into the Dharma and knowledge of that system 
> (Vajrayana) as it's intended to be learned. This type of 
sectarianism 
> has no place among those serious about studying the Buddha's Dharma, 
> who are truly intent on getting out of samsara. I am explicitly here 
> to learn the Buddha's Dharma from the Tipitaka's perspective, as I 
> have said. My wish is to study it as dispassionately as possible, 
> because I'm here to uncover its inner meaning. That will, however, 
> require I be able to discuss my understanding with others without 
the 
> presence of harsh or divisive speech from any of the participants 
> here. I have to ask myself again if my presence will increase net 
> kusala or net akusala. At the moment, for a few members here I 
> imagine it increasing akusala, though I have been extremely 
> encouraged by the truly wise, insightful, enlightening, and non-
> dogmatic responses of those who seem more concerned about the actual 
> meaning of the Dharma rather than the presentation of same.
> 
> Seriously, I am quite disappointed that some senior students of the 
> Tipitaka could be so easily intimidated by a little pissant 
Vajrayani 
> (and beginner in Abhidhamma to boot) who hasn't even clocked ten 
> years of Buddhist studies! Seriously, is all this knowledge about 
the 
> Abhidhamma insufficient to point out where I might have a mistaken 
> view? Of course not. And if the good folks here can't show me where 
I 
> might have mistaken understanding, then no one in this world can. 
And 
> I am 100% open to being SHOWN via scripture and reasoning (recall I 
> accept the Tipitaka as 100% Lord Buddha's word, so this should be 
> very easy for you) where I might hold a wrong view about something. 
> Can you imagine a better opportunity than the one you presently have 
> to straighten what is crooked (if it is fact bent in the first 
> place)? The question is, can you handle this without losing your 
cool 
> and denigrating that which doesn't conform to your prejudices? If 
you 
> say yes, then if you have a disagreement with anything I say from 
> here out, that you point out doctrinal specifics and we can discuss 
> them, in detail, if necessary. With the spirit of open-mindedness 
and 
> metta all the way. That, I think, would do more to reveal the 
meaning 
> of the Dharma and help us ALL get out of samsara far quicker than 
any 
> kind of divisive or uncharitable speech. 
> 
> I would prefer to stick around an benefit from the wisdom of the 
> Theras present here. But, I do not feel comfortable doing so in the 
> presence of unconcealed disdain or even outright hostility. You are 
> welcome to email me privately to discuss any issues. I posted this 
> publicly becaue there are others who have expressed views similar to 
> your own.
> 
> Your true friend in the Dhamma,
> Erik

 
4103 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: Self / Not self

 
  > I must admit to major confusion. I confess I have not read through 
the
> entire database and found all the relevant allusions to the problem 
I have.
> Forbearance, please. My problem are these:
> 
> If there is no self, and there is belief in no-self, why is just 
about every
> post here and elsewhere phrased in the language of self? (meaning I 
, me ,
> you, them etc). What is meant when an email announces " I this....." 
"You
> that"?
> 
> Taking it further, is there not a positive definition of not-self 
that can
> be used? How is it that a not-characteristic is considered a 
pervasive
> characteristic of all realities?
> 
> Nobody says "this is not-fish" or "that is not-green". Why do we say
> not-self? What is the opposite or the compliment of not-self ?

Dear Herman,

I think the Buddhist regard language as a means of communication, with 
which to refer to the truth.  For practical purposes, conventional 
terms are used with the reserve that other meanings and understandings 
might be added to is as right understanding begins and then develops. 
 Before right understanding came with the study of the dhamma, there 
was no concept of not self or non self, but the person as a whole, 
complete with a soul that started at birth and continues as the body 
develops and then declines.  I think the Buddha used the questions 
people ask him, according to their understandings, in order to 
redefine the conventional terms with dhamma meanings in several cases. 
 I wonder what our linguistic experts think about this.

Your questions reminds me of the study that Venerable Dhammapiyo is 
undertaking to define the word the Buddha used to refer to himself: 
'Tathagata', which Jim tells us means 'Thus Gone'.  When I first heard 
the meaning long ago I had thought it rather odd, until I learnt that 
it suggested the path taken by all the Buddha before him, and the path 
he is leading us towards.  Now your question has added a new dimension 
to his immense and infinite wisdom, he did not refer to the self, did 
he?  But I would still question the sanity of those who still live in 
the conventional world who is not a Buddha to emulate this and start 
calling themselves 'on the way' or 'still here' or whatever! 

Hope this helps,

Amara

 
4104 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 2:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Mike--illusion of 'I am')

 
  Dear Dan, Howard and Erik,

I'd like to try another response on the samma samadhi
issue, but I'm not sure how I'll get on. Let's see!

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
>.. but the unconcentrated and
> unrestrained mind doesn't 
> stop there: "Only insight matters. Cultivating
> samadhi is not 
> important. Cultivating sila is not important. When
> insight is strong 
> enough, sila and samadhi of necessity will be
> perfected. Those people 
> who cultivate sila and samadhi and TRY to cultivate
> pañña are 
> deluded.

I like the style Dan in your posts and in the statue
skit that followed which I'll leave just for now. I
think that we all agree on the importance of all kinds
of kusala (wholesome states) and the danger of akusala
(unwholesome states). 

Perhaps we can even go further and say that the more
knowlege there is of all kind of kusala, the more
likely it is that it will be correctly recognized,
appreciated and developed? In the same way, the more
knowledge there is of akusala, the more the danger
will be recognized and the more conditions there will
be for its (very) gradual decline. If there isn't any
precise knowledge of kusala or akusala moments, how
else can they possibly be recognized? 

So in order to recognize, say, the difference between
a moment of metta and a moment of attachment, we need
to hear and consider a lot about what metta is, what
attachment is. In the same way, to recognize the
difference between a moment of samma samadhi and
miccha samadhi, there has to be understanding of their
characteristics.

Now this understanding does not have to be at the
level of satipatthana. As we've all discussed, even
before the Buddha's time, people developed samatha
practices and understood clearly the difference
between moments of kusala and akusala which is no mean
feat. In this way sila, dana and samatha could be and
were developed.  

For the development of satipatthana, in adition to
this understanding, there has to also be the knowledge
that these same moments of kusala and akusala are
anatta. The kusala developed (whether dana, sila or
bhavana) will then be even finer with no illlusion of
self(eventually) that is developing them.

So understanding the practice in this way does not
mean that other kinds of kusala are neglected; quite
the contrary as Jon wrote recently. If right
understanding learns more and more precisely about all
kinds of realities appearing, it will see the
importance all the more of all kinds of kusala.

The following quote is from Maj Nik, 117
Mahacattarisaka Sutta, which is the one before the
Anapana Sutta:

'  "....What bhikkhus, is noble right concentration
with its supports and its requisites, that is, right
view, right intention, right speech, right action,
right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness?
Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors
is called noble right concentration with its supports
and its requisites.
Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first* And how
does right view come first?  One understands wrong
view as wrong view and right view as right view: this
is one's right view.**" '

* Pubbangama, lit. 'the forerunner'. MA says that two
kind of right view are forerunners: the right view of
insight, which investigates formations as impermanent,
suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the
path, which arises as a consequence of insight and
efffects the radical destruction of defilements.

**This statement suggests that in order to acquire
right view about the nature of reality, one must first
be able to distinguish between wrong and right
teachings on the nature of reality.  MA says that this
is the right view of insight which understands wrong
view as an object by penetrating its characteristics
of impermanence, etc., and which understands right
view by exercising the function of comprehension and
by clearing away confusion. (B.Bodhi translation)

Dan, I just want to paste in another extract from
another post of yours if I may:

> The cultivation means such unpopular things 
>as renunciation, restraint of senses, seeing danger
in >the slightest 
>fault, and meditation. One particularly pernicious
and >venomous view 
>is that practicing these things is not helpful
because >there is no 
>"who" to direct the practice or work toward active,
>conscious 
>purification of virtue, concentration, and insight.

Can we consider or understand renunciation, restraint
of senses and seing danger in the slightest fault at
this moment? At the moment of understanding seeing or
visible object or right or wrong concentration, there
is renunciation of akusala for a moment and the citta
is calm. 

This is the the beginning of bhavana(meditation) at
the level of vipassana. It can be proved at this
moment that there truly is no 'who' to direct the
awareness of these realities. This doesn't mean that
there should be any forgetfulness about the urgency of
the practice or the great value of developing whatever
kusala there is an opportunity for at this moment. It
is not easy to unmask the magician and only the
sotapanna finally does so. We can begin to start
unmaksing and understanding the tricks, a little at a
time, however.*

There were many more points I had planned to address,
but they will have to wait! 

Best regards to you all,
Sarah

* The sotapanna unmasks the the magician and has no
more illusion. He still has attachment to the tricks
(read self) even though he understands the tricks.
This is why there are still conditons for attachment
and mana, for example. The arahat has no more
attachment to the tricks at all. Thanks for the analogy!


 
4105 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 3:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Howard,

Anapanasati calls for a separate post. this is a very
difficult subject and I don't pretend to be an expert
or even a beginner here! I'm not sure if I'll be add
to the comments Robert and you have made, but again,
we'll see!

As we know, this is a 'meditation' subject for 'all
Buddhas, (some) Paccekebuddhas, and (some) Buddha's
disciples...'. It is not easy and I don't recall any
lay people ever being recommended to follow it.

As I said in the last post, a clear discrimination of
the cittas (consciousness) is necessary for the
development of samatha. For example, if we take
uppekha (indiferent feeling), it can arise with kusala
cittas (wholesome consciousness), it can arise with
lobha(attachment) and it always aises with moha
(ignorance). In the same way, it is very easy to
confuse calm with attachment and skilful concentration
with unskilful concentration and yet there cannot be
any development of samatha unless the different
moments are known clearly.

When there is right understanding of the object of
samatha and how it calms the citta, there are more
conditions for calm and higher levels of concentration
without trying. If samatha is developed it is due to
conditions, not due to a self trying. 

With understanding, there can be moments of samatha in
daily life such as when we reflect on the Buddha's
virtues or on death with kusala cittas.

When it comes to breath, again there has to be right
understanding of it in order for citta to be calm. For
example, at this moment, we can reflect on how our
life, all our worldly possessions and all those we
hold dear, depend on this breath. This can be a
condition for calmness for a moment. In order to be
developed to high levels, the subject has to be
developed with clear understanding of the subject and
kusala and akusala, otherwise it will be attachment to
breath that is developed.

Howard, for myself, I find it more helpful to read and
consider about many different samatha objects as a
condition for moments of samatha now. In the course of
my day, I meet many, many people; students, parents,
gym staff, shop-keepers, telephone callers, friends on
dsg. There are many, many opportunities for moments of
metta when one understands the value of friendliness
and kindness to others. I don't need to go looking for
a corpse or to TRY to develop samatha with breath as
the object. When there is selection, again it shows
that clinging to self, clinging to samatha which is
not a part of any bhavana.

Of course, the realities and the practice are
different for us all. I also had amazing experiences
and 'insights' during and after retreats with my
Mahasi Sayadaw-style teacher and Goenka. It was very,
very difficult to give up the attachment to what I
perceived to be (and was told were) higher levels of
wisdom and samma samadhi....In the end only a moment
of right understanding now can recognize what the true
reality really is. 

I know this is controverisal and will call for another
Dan skit (!!). I certainly don't mean to say 'I'm
right and you're wrong', but merely to express how I
look at anapanasati with limited understanding of this
subject. I know I'll hear more from you!

Sarah

  --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all -
> 
>        I have read the Interview on the web site,
> and I'm a bit perplexed. In 
> this interview she speaks against formal meditation
> whether for the purpose 
> of inducing calm or for the cultivation of insight.
> This seems to be at 
> variance with the Buddha's teaching of anapanasati,
> a formal meditation 
> technique, as a vehicle for working on the four
> foundations of mindfulness, 
> and which can take one all the way to the end of the
> path. It has been 
> commented on by many, many Theravadin monks and
> meditation teachers. This 
> formal meditative practice is presented in the
> Anapanasati Sutta in the 
> Majjhima Nikaya. It can be found on Access to
> Insight at the address 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html.
> Does anyone have 
> any comments on this?
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A
> star at dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
> a flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> Sutra)                    
>             
>                                          



 
4106 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Self / Not self

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 3/18/01 7:49:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Herman H writes:


> Hi all,
> 
> I must admit to major confusion. I confess I have not read through the
> entire database and found all the relevant allusions to the problem I have.
> Forbearance, please. My problem are these:
> 
> If there is no self, and there is belief in no-self, why is just about every
> post here and elsewhere phrased in the language of self? (meaning I , me ,
> you, them etc). What is meant when an email announces " I this....." "You
> that"?
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       That is easily answered. This is just a matter of conventional speech. 
We use speech conventions all the time as a matter of convenience - kind of a 
shorthand. If we didn't allow such conventional speech, we'd take forever to 
say the simplest things! For that matter, even when we are not talking about 
"me" or "you" , and so forth, we use speech conventions - for example when we 
speak of "the tree in the garden". That phrase is packed with conventional 
shorthand, the unwinding of which would fill volumes.
---------------------------------------------------------------

> Taking it further, is there not a positive definition of not-self that can
> be used? How is it that a not-characteristic is considered a pervasive
> characteristic of all realities?
> 
> Nobody says "this is not-fish" or "that is not-green". Why do we say
> not-self? What is the opposite or the compliment of not-self ?
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I don't personally like the term 'not-self'. I think it is awkward and 
uninformative. I much prefer 'impersonal' as translation for 'anatta', and 
'impersonality' for 'anattata'.
---------------------------------------------------------------


> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
==================================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4107 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 3:36pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View

 
  Derick,

--- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE
 wrote: > All:
> 
>     I am completely blown away by this e-mail list. 
> You guys are really
> into the dhamma here, hardcore!  Lots of Pali terms
> and scriptural
> references.  I'm completely amazed.

I really enjoyed this post a lot!! 'Hardcore Dhamma'!
Cybele, there's another option!!

Amara and Rob replied with helpful (I thought so
anyway) long posts, so I'll wait til I hear more. As
Num would say 'hang in' and 'give it a go'. You've
joined the list at a very busy time and the fine
distinction between understanding realities as not
self and developing awareness, right effort, right
intention and the rest is not easy at all...

I hope to hear more when you've had a chance to
consider the other posts and more recent ones to
others.

Please be a little patient with the use of Pali and
terminology. For some members it's as hard to remember
the English word as it is for others to understand the
Pali. Please let us know how we can help and feel free
to disagree with any of us.... I have to prepare for
my students now, so must dash, but thanks for your
great post!

Sarah


 
4108 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Thank you for this reply. At the end, you say you know you'll hear 
more from me. But actually I can't think of anything much to add on this 
topic. I do find meditation, particularly anapanasati, to be very useful, 
but, of course, not a trivial matter or one which can be done in any old way. 
I also think that maintaining mindfulness "in the moment" during day-to-day 
activities (and guarding the senses) to be an extremely important complement 
to formal meditation practice. I really have nothing much else of interest to 
add. Thanks again, very much, for your kind reply.

Wity metta,
Howard

In a message dated 3/19/01 2:20:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Sarah writes:


> Howard,
> 
> Anapanasati calls for a separate post. this is a very
> difficult subject and I don't pretend to be an expert
> or even a beginner here! I'm not sure if I'll be add
> to the comments Robert and you have made, but again,
> we'll see!
> 
> As we know, this is a 'meditation' subject for 'all
> Buddhas, (some) Paccekebuddhas, and (some) Buddha's
> disciples...'. It is not easy and I don't recall any
> lay people ever being recommended to follow it.
> 
> As I said in the last post, a clear discrimination of
> the cittas (consciousness) is necessary for the
> development of samatha. For example, if we take
> uppekha (indiferent feeling), it can arise with kusala
> cittas (wholesome consciousness), it can arise with
> lobha(attachment) and it always aises with moha
> (ignorance). In the same way, it is very easy to
> confuse calm with attachment and skilful concentration
> with unskilful concentration and yet there cannot be
> any development of samatha unless the different
> moments are known clearly.
> 
> When there is right understanding of the object of
> samatha and how it calms the citta, there are more
> conditions for calm and higher levels of concentration
> without trying. If samatha is developed it is due to
> conditions, not due to a self trying. 
> 
> With understanding, there can be moments of samatha in
> daily life such as when we reflect on the Buddha's
> virtues or on death with kusala cittas.
> 
> When it comes to breath, again there has to be right
> understanding of it in order for citta to be calm. For
> example, at this moment, we can reflect on how our
> life, all our worldly possessions and all those we
> hold dear, depend on this breath. This can be a
> condition for calmness for a moment. In order to be
> developed to high levels, the subject has to be
> developed with clear understanding of the subject and
> kusala and akusala, otherwise it will be attachment to
> breath that is developed.
> 
> Howard, for myself, I find it more helpful to read and
> consider about many different samatha objects as a
> condition for moments of samatha now. In the course of
> my day, I meet many, many people; students, parents,
> gym staff, shop-keepers, telephone callers, friends on
> dsg. There are many, many opportunities for moments of
> metta when one understands the value of friendliness
> and kindness to others. I don't need to go looking for
> a corpse or to TRY to develop samatha with breath as
> the object. When there is selection, again it shows
> that clinging to self, clinging to samatha which is
> not a part of any bhavana.
> 
> Of course, the realities and the practice are
> different for us all. I also had amazing experiences
> and 'insights' during and after retreats with my
> Mahasi Sayadaw-style teacher and Goenka. It was very,
> very difficult to give up the attachment to what I
> perceived to be (and was told were) higher levels of
> wisdom and samma samadhi....In the end only a moment
> of right understanding now can recognize what the true
> reality really is. 
> 
> I know this is controverisal and will call for another
> Dan skit (!!). I certainly don't mean to say 'I'm
> right and you're wrong', but merely to express how I
> look at anapanasati with limited understanding of this
> subject. I know I'll hear more from you!
> 
> Sarah
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4109 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:04pm
Subject: Revised Paccaya

 
  Dear all,

Just to tell you Varee has corrected all the (massive) Pali mistakes 
in 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the advanced section of  
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > .  The new and improved version up this 
morning,

Amara.

 
4110 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 8:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  When you read at this anapana sutta carefully, you will notice that through 
the proper practice of anapana meditation:
one begins to notice the [1]body, [3]mind and the cetasika [3]feeling and 
[4] metal formations.
But the noticing of them will be of no avail until one can "see" the mind, 
body and cetasikas with [7] equanimity.
Therefore if one practices anapana meditation to the higher level of 
concentration and reaches the point of equanimity in [samatha] or 
[appetizer], one can then automatically acheive the [vipassana] or [main 
entree] and "see" the mind, body and cetasika.
Proper insight is after all not that difficult to understand but can be 
acheived only through hard practice.

with metta,
des


>From: "Amara" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom
>Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:11:16 -0000
>
>
>
>
> > It can be found on Access to Insight at the address
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html.
>
>
>Dear Howard
>
>Just a minor detail, the link you gave doesn't seem to work, or
>perhaps it's my browser again?
>
>Amara


 
4111 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:48pm
Subject: Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  --- "Desmond Chiong"  
wrote:
> When you read at this anapana sutta carefully, you will notice that 
through 
> the proper practice of anapana meditation:
> one begins to notice the [1]body, [3]mind and the cetasika 
[3]feeling and 
> [4] metal formations.
> But the noticing of them will be of no avail until one can "see" the 
mind, 
> body and cetasikas with [7] equanimity.

Dear Des,

May I ask what you mean by equanimity here?  In the Tipitaka, samatha 
is peacefulness from lobha, dosa and moha, therefore any instant the 
citta evolves with dana, sila or bhavana.  Vipassana at each moment 
that sati arises in daily life is also bhavana, the development of 
panna that knows things as they really are.  As in several of Jon's 
post, it is one of the five components of the eightfold magga citta 
that is being developed each time sati arises to be aware of things as 
they really are right now, as when we read this message.  Realities 
are appearing and we do not know that the body is in contact with the 
chair or the keyboard, that hardness appears, that motion and tension 
is being experienced through the body sense as you type and move the 
mouse. That through the eyes realities appear and fall away, all the 
panna that could be accumulated through instants of sati right now.  
And the peace from all kilesa at the tiny instants of sati, when the 
self is not there and panna accumulates right understanding further.  
It is true that the right samadhi could lead to panna, but not without 
the studies of realities, even based on a higher peace of the jhana.  
But most people who have lost the skills of samadhi do not need this 
round abouts route to sati, they could study as most did in the times 
of the Buddha, where those with Sukkhavipassaka were more numerous 
even among the bhikkhus.  This is not to mention all the millions of 
lay people who also attained different levels without becoming 
ordained, although those who became the arahanta would not remain a 
layperson any more.

Amara


> Therefore if one practices anapana meditation to the higher level of 
> concentration and reaches the point of equanimity in [samatha] or 
> [appetizer], one can then automatically acheive the [vipassana] or 
[main 
> entree] and "see" the mind, body and cetasika.
> Proper insight is after all not that difficult to understand but can 
be 
> acheived only through hard practice.
> 
> with metta,
> des
> 
> 

 
4112 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 7:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:50:22 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

Dear Jon,
This is just mahasi sayadaw's view but surely not the comment by commentators.To be a sukkhavipassaka,you must be a viewing type but craving type for samathayanika(see satipatthana sutta com).We have 2 samathayanika doing kaya and vedana while sukkhavipassaka doing citta and dhamma anupassana.I have to mention sukkhavipassaka will have lokiya jhana after insight (khanika samadhi follow by vikhamabhana samadhi)before that citta vithi for lokuttara magga citta.See patisambhida com.It is  only a thera view for sukkhavipasaka having first jhana factors but the other two think they will have higher jhana(see visuddhimagga)
If you think mahasi sayadaw is better than buddhaghosa and dhammapala,I don't mind at all.
from Teng Kee


> Erik
> 
> Thanks for the reference from Mahasi Sayadaw on this
> topic (yr messge below).  You might also be interestd
> in a reference from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (in
> translation as 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma',
> BPS) a text which, as i am sure you would know, is of
> very long standing and which is regarded as highly
> authorative in the Pali tradition.  (This is copied
> from an earlier message of mine, but I think bears
> repeating - apologies to others if the repetition is
> not appreciated).
> 
> The passage that follows is directly from CMA Ch. I,
> Guide to ##30-31).  The numbers in square brackets are
> markers to comments of mu own at the end.
> 
> ===============================
> All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
> through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight
> into the three characteristics of impermanence,
> suffering, and non-self. [1] 
> 
> However, they differ among themselves in the degree of
> their development of concentration (samadhi).  Those
> who develop insight without a basis of jhana are
> called practitioners of bare insight
> (sukkhavipassaka). [2]  When they reach the path and
> fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
> corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
> 
> Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain
> a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of
> jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ...
> 
> For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
> all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
> jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
> they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
> object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
> and because they possess the jhana factors with an
> intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
> mundane jhanas. [4]  
> 
> The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ
> from the mundane jhanas in several important respects.
> [5]  
> 
> First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object
> some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the
> supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the
> unconditioned reality. [5.1]  
> Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
> defilements while leaving their underlying seeds
> intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate
> defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2]
> Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the
> fine material world and thus sustain existence in the
> round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the
> fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in
> liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] 
> Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
> jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
> supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
> balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
> unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
> significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
> ===================================
> 
> Notes:
> 1.  It is the development of understanding of the
> characteristics of reality that leads to the
> attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta
> (magga citta).
> 2.  Development of concentration to the level of jhana
> is not necessary for attaining magga citta.
> 3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
> concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
> ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
> 4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
> to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
> experiences its object with same full absorption and
> intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
> 5.  There are, however, 4 important differences
> between jhana citta and the path citta –
> 5.1.   The object of jhana citta is a concept , while
> the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
> 5.2.   Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while
> magga citta eradicates kilesa.
> 5.3.   Jhana cittas are a condition for future
> rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation
> from the cycle of birth and death.
> 5.4.   The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
> citta is the degree of concentration on the object at
> that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of
> magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths.
> 
> Jon
> 
> > Hi Robert, thank you again very much for your
> > insights. As I was 
> > rooting around for more on this I found this great
> > description of it 
> > from Mahasi Sayadaw, in his commentary to the
> > Dhammachakkapavattana 
> > Sutta. Look for item #66 "Explanation on Insight
> > Momentary 
> > Concentration." Also very interesting stuff on "The
> > Path of Right 
> > Concentration."
> > 
> > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//dhamack3.htm
> > 
> > Mahasi Sayadaw mentions "This access concentration,
> > as explained in 
> > the Great Subcommentary of Visuddhi Magga, is not in
> > the 
> > neighbourhood of any appana samadhi (absorption
> > concentration) and, 
> > as such, is not a true Access concentration.
> > Nevertheless, since it 
> > is akin to access concentration in its capacity in
> > overcoming the 
> > hindrances and producing tranquillity, it assumes
> > the name of access 
> > concentration by virtue of identity in capacities."
> > 
> > So it appears that this "vipassanakhanika samadhi"
> > is quite a 
> > different animal from the sort of samadhi arising in
> > jhana. This is 
> > exactly one of this things that had tripped me up in
> > discussions of 
> > vipassana-yanika practice. So what this is saying to
> > me is this is a 
> > technically different type of "samadhi" that
> > performs the same 
> > function as samadhi arising in jhana, even though it
> > isn't the same 
> > thing. Does this make sense to your understanding?
> 
> 

 
4113 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, Howard,

We're really finding plenty of agreement these days
which makes for a much easier life! Maybe it just
takes a little getting used to...!!

I'm enjoying all your posts too,

Sarah

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah -
> 
>        Thank you for this reply. At the end, you say
> you know you'll hear 
> more from me. But actually I can't think of anything
> much to add on this 
> topic. I do find meditation, particularly
> anapanasati, to be very useful, 
> but, of course, not a trivial matter or one which
> can be done in any old way. 
> I also think that maintaining mindfulness "in the
> moment" during day-to-day 
> activities (and guarding the senses) to be an
> extremely important complement 
> to formal meditation practice. I really have nothing
> much else of interest to 
> add. Thanks again, very much, for your kind reply.
> 
> Wity metta,
> Howard
> 



 
4114 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  Dear teng,
This is a crucial topic and your input is very helpful. But
could you be even more helpful by giving detailed explanations.
I think I see what you are saying but I want to be sure. 
Is it that the commentaries are saying that sukkhavipassaka only
go by way of citta and dhammanupassana? Dhammanupassana is
comprehensive and includes the 5 khandas that this wouldn't
surprise me. There are several passages where jhayati(spelling?)
are broken into two types: those who develop the 40 objects for
samatha and those who insight the characteristics of the khandas
, dhatus and ayatanas.
robert

--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonothan Abbott
> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:50:22 +0800 (CST)
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying
> insight
> 
> Dear Jon,
> This is just mahasi sayadaw's view but surely not the comment
> by commentators.To be a sukkhavipassaka,you must be a viewing
> type but craving type for samathayanika(see satipatthana sutta
> com).We have 2 samathayanika doing kaya and vedana while
> sukkhavipassaka doing citta and dhamma anupassana.I have to
> mention sukkhavipassaka will have lokiya jhana after insight
> (khanika samadhi follow by vikhamabhana samadhi)before that
> citta vithi for lokuttara magga citta.See patisambhida com.It
> is  only a thera view for sukkhavipasaka having first jhana
> factors but the other two think they will have higher
> jhana(see visuddhimagga)
> If you think mahasi sayadaw is better than buddhaghosa and
> dhammapala,I don't mind at all.
> from Teng Kee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Erik
> > 
> > Thanks for the reference from Mahasi Sayadaw on this
> > topic (yr messge below).  You might also be interestd
> > in a reference from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (in
> > translation as 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma',
> > BPS) a text which, as i am sure you would know, is of
> > very long standing and which is regarded as highly
> > authorative in the Pali tradition.  (This is copied
> > from an earlier message of mine, but I think bears
> > repeating - apologies to others if the repetition is
> > not appreciated).
> > 
> > The passage that follows is directly from CMA Ch. I,
> > Guide to ##30-31).  The numbers in square brackets are
> > markers to comments of mu own at the end.
> > 
> > ===============================
> > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
> > through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight
> > into the three characteristics of impermanence,
> > suffering, and non-self. [1] 
> > 
> > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of
> > their development of concentration (samadhi).  Those
> > who develop insight without a basis of jhana are
> > called practitioners of bare insight
> > (sukkhavipassaka). [2]  When they reach the path and
> > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
> > corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
> > 
> > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain
> > a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of
> > jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ...
> > 
> > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
> > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
> > jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
> > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
> > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
> > and because they possess the jhana factors with an
> > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
> > mundane jhanas. [4]  
> > 
> > The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ
> > from the mundane jhanas in several important respects.
> > [5]  
> > 
> > First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object
> > some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the
> > supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the
> > unconditioned reality. [5.1]  
> > Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
> > defilements while leaving their underlying seeds
> > intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate
> > defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2]
> > Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the
> > fine material world and thus sustain existence in the
> > round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the
> > fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in
> > liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] 
> > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
> > jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
> > supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
> > balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
> > unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
> > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
> > ===================================
> > 
> > Notes:
> > 1.  It is the development of understanding of the
> > characteristics of reality that leads to the
> > attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta
> > (magga citta).
> > 2.  Development of concentration to the level of jhana
> > is not necessary for attaining magga citta.
> > 3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
> > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
> > ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
> > 4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
> > to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
> > experiences its object with same full absorption and
> > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
> > 5.  There are, however, 4 important differences
> > between jhana citta and the path citta –
> > 5.1.   The object of jhana citta is a concept , while
> > the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
> > 5.2.   Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while
> > magga citta eradicates kilesa.
> > 5.3.   Jhana cittas are a condition for future
> > rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation
> > from the cycle of birth and death.
> > 5.4.   The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
> > citta is the degree of concentration on the object at
> > that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of
> > magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths.
> > 
> > Jon
> > 



 
4115 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 9:39pm
Subject: Re: Self / Not self

 
  --- "Herman Hofman"  wrote:
> 
> If there is no self, and there is belief in no-self, why is just 
about every
> post here and elsewhere phrased in the language of self? (meaning 
I , me ,
> you, them etc). What is meant when an email announces " I 
this....." "You
> that"?

Herman, no need to worry about conventional labels like personal 
pronouns. The Buddha used them all the time. Understanding no-self 
does not mean abandoning everyday language!

"Self" in the Buddhist sense refers to the specific term "atta" 
or "atman." No-self (anatta/anatman/emptiness) refers to the fact 
that nothing possess a fixed nature, or any "true" entitiness of its 
own. Anatta refers to the fact that among the parts of a collection 
there is truly nothing partaking of a fixed, or permanent "self," 
that what we perceive is nothing but a changing collection of parts. 
There is truly no "there" there when we break it all down, in other 
words. Particles? Do they even have "true" existence? Modern physics 
says no to even this. So we really have nothing substantial anywhere! 
We do have appearances, though, and stragely enough, even though 
nothing possesses a fixed "core" or "essence" things still appear.

For this reason, anatta is the flipside of dependent origination 
(paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of all things, nibbana 
as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is also  ultimately no 
different from dependent origination if you really understand it.

There are many subtle wrong views about anatta, and it takes a lot to 
get rid of them. Many people think anatta means "nonexistence," for 
example. But this is a major fallacy and a wrong view. Another 
mistaken view is that things have "true existence," perhaps the 
biggest problem most people have. There are many, many meditations to 
help get rid of misunderstandings relating to this. The Middle Way of 
understanding this is to thread the two extremes of nonexistence and 
inherent (non-produced) existence. Practicing vipassana will yield 
insight into this when insight arises in relation to paramattha 
dhammas. If you're a jhana meditator like some here, then in the 
jhanas you'll be able to perform meditations on this specifically. 
Either way will eventually bring about direct insight into the nature 
of this pervasive characteristic of all realities, and 
simultaneously, into the characteristics of impermanence and dukkha, 
and the Four Noble Truths. This is provided all the prerequisites 
have been met in other aspects of practice, such as keeping the 
precepts, dana, sila and removal of the five hindrances.

> Taking it further, is there not a positive definition of not-self 
that can
> be used? How is it that a not-characteristic is considered a 
pervasive
> characteristic of all realities?

The capacity to change a characteristic of things. In this same way, 
emptiness/anatta is a characteristic of (and characterizes) all 
phenomena (even Nibbana), including the collection of parts you 
designate "Herman." "Herman" is merely a label applied to a 
collection of arms, legs, torso, head, born in a specific place, etc. 
There is no real "Howard," though. These are merely mental 
imputations, but, unfortunately, imputations we take for "self" 
or "real." By mistaking these labels of designation for "realities," 
we suffer. Arahats have destroyed this tendency because they have 
eradicated all ignorance in regard to "self."

 
 
4116 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:08pm
Subject: Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> I could continue, but I think you'll understand why
> there is an emphasis on understanding paramattha
> dhammas at all levels of wisdom in the Theravada
> teachings. 

I agree on the paramattha dhammas part. As you know, nibbana is also 
a paramattha dhamma, and is one object of investigation for certain 
types of jhana meditators. For these types of meditators watching the 
arising and passing away of namarupa isn't considered as effective. 

I have to say last week's discussion really clarified for me the 
basic differences in the approaches, as well as differences in 
results. I now know what the real differences are, though I have to 
say I was a bit taken aback to see that anapanasati was listed 
as "more difficult." In my experience, I found the meditation on 
paramattha dhammas in the way you describe "more difficult," whereas 
anapanasati and jhana meditation are very straightforward by 
comparison. Just goes to underscore the differences in the 
accumulations, I suppose, though I have used the paramattha dhammas 
approach to dealing with unfavorable emotions, and it worked wonders 
as a cure for anxiety, so I'm a believer in it. Just not a believer 
in its efficacy in terms of bringing about insight as a primary 
practice for myself.

> Seeing is anatta, not self. 

How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your explanation of this.

> This is how it is for all the other phenomena that
> make up our lives. Understanding these phenomena as
> they really are is the way to understand that they are
> anatta. There has to be repeated understanding and
> awareness over and over again of the different mental
> and physical phenomena so that gradually the
> impermanent and unsatisfactory nature of these
> realities can become more apparent as higher levels of
> wisdom are developed. These characteristics are not
> concepts to be known through contemplation outside the
> realities appearing now. This is the development of
> vipassana (right understanding) as explained by the
> Buddha. 

Alternatively, one can initially learn using "progressive 
instructions" to eradicate the gross wrong views held about anatta, 
etc., and then in meditation in the jhanas, alternating with 
vipassana, can take a subtler understanding of this and yield the 
same result of the sort of vipassana you're trained in. This is the 
entire point of this exercise. See my post to Herman on one of the 
ways of doing this at the grosser, intellectual level. These 
intellectual meditations are really precursors to understanding 
anatta in meditation.

I'd like to go longer, but really didn't find anything important I 
disagreed with.

Erik

 
4117 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View (Jon)

 
  Dan

> Granted. But direct cultivation of samadhi and sila
> is very helpful, 
> not only in a mundane kusala sort of way (this, not
> to be 
> underestimated), but also in supporting development
> of insight. 
> 
> As Lord Buddha said: "Without overcoming [the five
> nivarana], it is 
> impossible for a monk whose insight thus lacks
> strength and power, to 
> know his own true good, the good of others, and the
> good of both; nor 
> will he be capable of realizing that superhuman
> state of disticntive 
> achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the
> attainment of 
> sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five
> impediments and 
> hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that
> stultify insight, then 
> it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can
> know his own true 
> good, the good of others..." (AN 5:51).
> 
> Direct cultivation of samadhi and sila via formal
> practice help to 
> overcome nivarana, which is essential for insight to
> arise. This 
> certainly does not mean that insight can only arise
> while sitting, but  
> that we must constantly be on guard against allowing
> disdain for 
> samadhi and sila take hold because we believe in the
> ultimate efficacy 
> of insight.

I am not sure what you personally understand by ‘the
ultimate efficacy of insight’, but it’s a label I
don’t mind being branded with.  It has good support in
the suttas, the commentaries and the works the
authoritative compilers.  Disdain for samadhi and sila
would of course be serious wrong view, but I don’t see
why someone who has confidence in the efficacy of
insight as the highest form of kusala should be
considered susceptible to that particular form of
wrong view.  After all, the development of insight (=
wisdom) is a condition for performing all kinds of
kusala more skilfully.  (You could equally argue that
someone who had confidence in samatha would need to
guard against disdain for dana and sila.) 

Thanks for the quote about the nivarana.  The nivarana
that must be overcome in order to attain jhana should
not be regarded as the same nivarana that need to be
overcome in order to attain enlightenment.  The
attainments/goals of the 2 kinds of development are
quite different, and so the conditions for that
development and the obstacles to it are also quiet
different.  The overcoming of the nivarana in the
attainment of jhana is not necessarily a condition for
their being overcome in the context of insight.

This leads us to another interesting point in your
post.  It is of course not wrong to say that sila and
samatha support the development of insight.  But it is
important to understand exactly *in what way* they do
so.  It is the good deeds (sila and samatha) done in
the past, ie in a previous lifetime, that are a
support for the development of insight now, because
they are a very important condition for us meeting the
dhamma and the right person in this life.  But they
are not a condition in the sense that the more that
sila and samatha are practised today, the better the
conditions today or tomorrow, or perhaps even in this
lifetime, for the development of insight.  (And no,
I’m not disdaining sila and samatha here, I assure
you!!)

If you are referring to samma-samadhi of the Eightfold
Path, then it is insight that leads to that, rather
than the other way round.

> You also write:
> > 2.  I can assure you that giving priority in this
> > lifetime to learing about and developing panna at
> the
> > level of satipatthana does not connote any lack of
> > interest in developing panna at the level of
> samatha
> > and all the other levels of kusala.  On the
> contrary,
> > the understanding of the essence of the teaching
> gives
> > greater insight into the means and the benefits of
> > developing all the other levels of kusala.
> 
> Thanks for the assurances. I'm confused, though.
> What does "at the 
> level of" mean? I usually think of "level" in terms
> of depth, but that 
> doesn't seem to make any sense here. Also, I'm not
> sure what you mean 
> by "understanding of the essence of the teaching". 
> 
> The anusaya are not easy to see.

The ‘essence of the teaching’ was meant to be a
reference to the development of insight.  The panna
which accompanies a moment of samatha is of a level
(quality, if you like) different to that which
accompanies a moment of insight.  Vipassana bhavana is
a higher level of kusala than is samatha bhavana, and
the accompanying panna is likewise different too.

Dan, I have not been able to include references with
this post, but am happy to discuss further, with
references.

Jon



 
4118 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  Teng Kee

Thanks for your comments.

> This is just mahasi sayadaw's view but surely not
> the comment by commentators.

Just to clarify, the quote I gave was taken directly
from the explanatory material that accompanies the
translation of the section of the Abhidhammattha
Sangaha.  It purports to be drawn mainly from 2
commentaries on A-S - one from the late 12th century,
the other from Ledi Sayadaw (late 19th century).  It
is certainly nothing to do with Mahasi Sayadaw, as far
as I know.

To be a
> sukkhavipassaka,you must be a viewing type but
> craving type for samathayanika(see satipatthana
> sutta com).We have 2 samathayanika doing kaya and
> vedana while sukkhavipassaka doing citta and dhamma
> anupassana.I have to mention sukkhavipassaka will
> have lokiya jhana after insight (khanika samadhi
> follow by vikhamabhana samadhi)before that citta
> vithi for lokuttara magga citta.See patisambhida
> com.It is  only a thera view for sukkhavipasaka
> having first jhana factors but the other two think
> they will have higher jhana(see visuddhimagga)
> If you think mahasi sayadaw is better than
> buddhaghosa and dhammapala,I don't mind at all.
> from Teng Kee

I will need to spend time working through this before
I can give any meaningful response.  Are you able to
give  any more exact details of the references you
have in mind?  That would help a lot.

Jon


 
4119 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  Dear Erik,
sarah will probably give a clearer explanation but just some
minor points below.
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott
>  
> wrote:
> 
> > I could continue, but I think you'll understand why
> > there is an emphasis on understanding paramattha
> > dhammas at all levels of wisdom in the Theravada
> > teachings. 
> 
> I agree on the paramattha dhammas part. As you know, nibbana
> is also 
> a paramattha dhamma, and is one object of investigation for
> certain 
> types of jhana meditators.

Meditation on nibbana as an object of samatha is completely
different from satipatthana- the investigation of nama and rupa.
Although nibbana is classified as a paramattha dhamma it is not
one that arises or falls in the present moment. 
The meditation on nibbana as samatha is a recollection that if
done properly results in a calm. One cannot reach even first
jhana with it - only access(upacara)- and even then only if one
is already at least a sotapanna. This is because only they have
the profound knowledge to really understand its peacefulness.
However, non-ariya can still develop it and generate some level
of calm if they understand something of its nature- that it is
unlike nama or rupa, conditioned phenomena. It can be a very
beneficial type of recollection.
___________________________________________________________
. These 
> intellectual meditations are really precursors to
> understanding 
> anatta in meditation.

I think we are in agreement here. Even the driest of the
dry-insight worker (sukkhavipassaka) still must have some/much
contemplation of anatta at the intellectual level. (How much is
another discussion)
By the way this type of recollection and contemplation can be
classified under the type of samatha that is
Dhammanasati(spelling?). In this sense even the sukkhavipassaka
is engaged very often in samatha bhavana. And as you suggest
Erik it can be a great help or precusor for direct understanding
of paramattha dhammas.
robert






 
4120 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 7:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  Hi, Des -

In a message dated 3/19/01 3:31:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Desmond C writes:


> When you read at this anapana sutta carefully, you will notice that through 
> the proper practice of anapana meditation:
> one begins to notice the [1]body, [3]mind and the cetasika [3]feeling and 
> [4] metal formations.
> But the noticing of them will be of no avail until one can "see" the mind, 
> body and cetasikas with [7] equanimity.
> Therefore if one practices anapana meditation to the higher level of 
> concentration and reaches the point of equanimity in [samatha] or 
> [appetizer], one can then automatically acheive the [vipassana] or [main 
> entree] and "see" the mind, body and cetasika.
> Proper insight is after all not that difficult to understand but can be 
> acheived only through hard practice.
> 
> with metta,
> des
> 
=====================================
       I agree with this. From several sources in the suttas and from many 
modern teachers (for example, Goenka), it is clear, I think, that for insight 
to arise as a consequence of various factors (such as right understanding, 
intention, and mindfulness), there must also be the lack of reactive grasping 
or aversion; that is, there must be a certain degree of equanimity. This is 
why, I believe, the Buddha put so much emphasis, for example, on the 4th 
jhana, characterized by equanimity. I don't mean to imply that the level of 
equanimity attained in the 4th jhana is *necessary*, but only that it would 
be the quintessence of equanimity (in a worldly state).

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4121 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 7:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  Hi, Erik -

In a message dated 3/19/01 9:12:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erik writes:


> I agree on the paramattha dhammas part. As you know, nibbana is also 
> a paramattha dhamma, and is one object of investigation for certain 
> types of jhana meditators. For these types of meditators watching the 
> arising and passing away of namarupa isn't considered as effective. 
> 
=============================
       By investigating nibbana, do you mean investigating the 
idea/thought/concept of nibbana? If yes, then this would be a samatha 
meditation (as you say), but nothing more. On the other hand, if you mean 
actually taking nibbana, itself, as the meditation object, then it would seem 
to me that this would be no ordinary meditation; it would be something on the 
order of a signless meditation or even path/fruition consciousness; it would 
be an advanced state, the result of much previous practice, and beyond 
ordinary bhavana.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4122 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:49am
Subject: Re: Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  --- Howard wrote:

>        By investigating nibbana, do you mean investigating the 
> idea/thought/concept of nibbana? If yes, then this would be a 
samatha 
> meditation (as you say), but nothing more. On the other hand, if 
you mean 
> actually taking nibbana, itself, as the meditation object, then it 
would seem 
> to me that this would be no ordinary meditation; it would be 
something on the 
> order of a signless meditation or even path/fruition consciousness; 
it would 
> be an advanced state, the result of much previous practice, and 
beyond 
> ordinary bhavana.

I did not mean this in relation to cultivating samatha. In my 
ignorance I was unaware of nibbana as an object of meditation in this 
context. I should have said "emptiness" instead of "nibbana" because 
that is more concise, and the point is to "realize emptiness" (same 
object, nibbana) directly through this practice.

Rather than use my own poor explanations, perhaps the words of 
someone fully trained in my tradition will be more clear. Geshe Tapka 
Topgyal: "... we could concentrate on the breath until we realize 
emptiness. But mainly it is more effective to concentrate on 
one's 'I' in an attempt to search the nature of 'I': How it arises, 
how it appears to our mind as an independent self-entity. Then, once 
we reach the understanding that there is no such 'I' that possesses 
independent self-entity, or image, but mere absence of it, we simply 
fix our mind upon that mere absence. When, at the initial stage, we 
meditate in this manner, we reject the idea of 'I'. We are unable to 
hold the concept of "I" when we realize mere absence of self-entity. 
This problem will be naturally solved, as we continue to cultivate 
this same practice on our 'I'."

Hope this clarifies rather than muddling my poor presentation even 
more.

 
4123 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  Hi, Erik -

In a message dated 3/19/01 1:50:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erik writes:


> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> >        By investigating nibbana, do you mean investigating the 
> > idea/thought/concept of nibbana? If yes, then this would be a 
> samatha 
> > meditation (as you say), but nothing more. On the other hand, if 
> you mean 
> > actually taking nibbana, itself, as the meditation object, then it 
> would seem 
> > to me that this would be no ordinary meditation; it would be 
> something on the 
> > order of a signless meditation or even path/fruition consciousness; 
> it would 
> > be an advanced state, the result of much previous practice, and 
> beyond 
> > ordinary bhavana.
> 
> I did not mean this in relation to cultivating samatha. In my 
> ignorance I was unaware of nibbana as an object of meditation in this 
> context. I should have said "emptiness" instead of "nibbana" because 
> that is more concise, and the point is to "realize emptiness" (same 
> object, nibbana) directly through this practice.
> 
> Rather than use my own poor explanations, perhaps the words of 
> someone fully trained in my tradition will be more clear. Geshe Tapka 
> Topgyal: "... we could concentrate on the breath until we realize 
> emptiness. But mainly it is more effective to concentrate on 
> one's 'I' in an attempt to search the nature of 'I': How it arises, 
> how it appears to our mind as an independent self-entity. Then, once 
> we reach the understanding that there is no such 'I' that possesses 
> independent self-entity, or image, but mere absence of it, we simply 
> fix our mind upon that mere absence. When, at the initial stage, we 
> meditate in this manner, we reject the idea of 'I'. We are unable to 
> hold the concept of "I" when we realize mere absence of self-entity. 
> This problem will be naturally solved, as we continue to cultivate 
> this same practice on our 'I'."
> 
> Hope this clarifies rather than muddling my poor presentation even 
> more.
> 
> 
=============================
       Okay! This is good. As I understand this, it involves examining 
dhammas (such as the breath), looking into dhammas in search of self and 
essence ,and seeing *through* them, seeing their transparency, their 
corelessness, and thereby realizing the ultimate nonexistence of self, the 
impersonality of the khandas, and the insubstantiality of dhammas. Of course, 
seeing through dhammas involves seeing their dependent nature and constructed 
nature, which is the heart of the satipatthana method as I understand it

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4124 From: Num 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al. : speech

 
  Hi all,

I am going to make 3 posts rgd good speech, anger, the way and how to examine 
dhamma.    I will pretty much cut and paste the sutta from accesstoinsight.   
Pardon me if you guys have already read all of these.   Dhamma is deep, so 
read it carefully and attentively, OK.  

Good speech:

Every fool who is born
has an axe within his mouth
with which he cuts himself
when he uses wrong speech. 

One should utter only words
which do no harm to oneself
and cause no harm for others:
that is truly beautiful speech. 

Speak kind words, words
rejoiced at and welcomed,
words that bear ill-will to none;
always speak kindly to others. 

The worse of the two is he
who, when abused, retaliates.
One who does not retaliate
wins a battle hard to win. 

The fool thinks he has won a battle
when he bullies with harsh speech,
but knowing how to be forbearing
alone makes one victorious. 

When the recluse speaks much
it is only to speak about the goal.
Knowingly he teaches the Dhamma,
knowingly he speaks much. 

If one addresses those who wish
to learn, without wavering, imparting
understanding, opening up and not
obscuring the teaching. 

Speaking without hesitation nor
getting angry when asked a question,
a monk like this is worthy
to proclaim the teachings. 

If he does not speak up, others know
him not; he is just a wise man mixed
up with fools. But if he speaks about
and teaches the Deathless, others will
know him. So let him light up the Dhamma,
let him lift the sage's banner high. 

The Buddha speaks words that lead
to the winning of security, the ending
of sorrow and the attaining of Nibbana.
Truly, this is the speech supreme. 


I got this from Gemstones of the Good Dhamma (Saddhamma-maniratana), 
Vacavagga.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel342.html#Mit


What do you guys think about it?


Num





 
4125 From: Num 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al. : anger

 
  Hi again,

This part is from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn7-2.html, 
Akkosa Sutta.    How the Buddha teach about insult and anger.  I really like 
it.



I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha 
in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then the brahmin Akkosaka  
("Insulter") Bharadvaja heard that a brahmin of the Bharadvaja clan had gone 
forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed 
One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, 
insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words.

When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahmin: 
Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?"

"Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come 
to me as guests."

"And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & 
delicacies?"

"Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies."

"And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?"

"If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine."

"In the same way, brahmin, that with which you have insulted me, who is not 
insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that 
with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from 
you. It's all yours, brahmin. It's all yours.

"Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is 
taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating 
together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together 
nor sharing your company, brahmin. It's all yours. It's all yours."

"The king together with his court know this of Master Gotama -- 'Gotama the 
contemplative is an arahant' -- and yet still Master Gotama gets angry."[1]

[The Buddha:]
Whence is there anger
for one free from anger,
    tamed,
    living in tune --
one released through right knowing,
    calmed
    & Such.

You make things worse
when you flare up
at someone who's angry.
Whoever doesn't flare up
at someone who's angry
    wins a battle
    hard to win.

You live for the good of both
    -- your own, the other's --
when, knowing the other's provoked,
    you mindfully grow calm.

When you work the cure of both
    -- your own, the other's --
those who think you a fool
know nothing of Dhamma.

When this was said, the brahmin Akkosaka Bharadvaja said to the Blessed One, 
"Magnificent , Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place 
upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to 
one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes 
could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of 
reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to 
the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. Let me obtain the going forth in 
Master Gotama's presence, let me obtain admission."

Then the brahmin Akkosaka Bharadvaja received the going forth & the admission 
in the Blessed One's presence. And not long after his admission -- dwelling 
alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- he in no long time reached & 
remained in the supreme goal of the holy life, for which clansmen rightly go 
forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the 
here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. 
There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And so Ven. Bharadvaja 
became another one of the Arahants.

Note
1. Akkosaka thinks that the Buddha is cursing him -- and thus angry -- when 
actually the Buddha is simply stating a fact in line with the law of kamma.


Num



 
4126 From: Num 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al.:the way and how to prove what is right

 
  Hi all,

I would like to respond to Erik letter to K.Amara about this quote, "And if 
the good folks here can't show me where I might have mistaken understanding, 
then no one in this world can."

Sorry Erik, I don't know about other but I can say for myself that I cannot 
:-)  I will tell you why.  Appreciate that you give us(not including me) a 
lot of credit.

Let see, this is from Kalama Sutta, 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html




...As they sat there, the Kalamas of Kesaputta said to the Blessed One, 
"Lord, there are some priests & contemplatives who come to Kesaputta. They 
expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, 
they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. 
And then other priests & contemplatives come to Kesaputta. They expound & 
glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they 
deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. They 
leave us absolutely uncertain & in doubt: Which of these venerable priests & 
contemplatives are speaking the truth, and which ones are lying?"

"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there 
are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't 
go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical 
conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, 
by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When 
you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these 
qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these 
qualities, when undertaken & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' -- 
then you should abandon them.

"What do you think, Kalamas? When greed arises in a person, does it arise for 
welfare or for harm?"

"For harm, lord."

"And this greedy person, overcome by greed, his mind possessed by greed, 
kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another person's 
wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is for 
long-term harm & suffering."

"Yes, lord."

"Now, what do you think, Kalamas? When aversion arises in a person, does it 
arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For harm, lord."

"And this aversive person, overcome by aversion, his mind possessed by 
aversion, kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another 
person's wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is 
for long-term harm & suffering."

"Yes, lord."

"Now, what do you think, Kalamas? When delusion arises in a person, does it 
arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For harm, lord."

"And this deluded person, overcome by delusion, his mind possessed by 
delusion, kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another 
person's wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is 
for long-term harm & suffering."

"Yes, lord."

"So what do you think, Kalamas: Are these qualities skillful or unskillful?"

"Unskillful, lord."

"Blameworthy or blameless?"

"Blameworthy, lord."

"Criticized by the wise or praised by the wise?"

"Criticized by the wise, lord."

"When undertaken & carried out, do they lead to harm & to suffering, or not?"

"When undertaken & carried out, they lead to harm & to suffering. That is how 
it appears to us."

"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by 
scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement 
through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This 
contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These 
qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities 
are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when undertaken & carried out, 
lead to harm & to suffering" -- then you should abandon them.' Thus was it 
said. And in reference to this was it said.

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, 
by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through 
pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is 
our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are 
skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the 
wise; these qualities, when undertaken & carried out, lead to welfare & to 
happiness' -- then you should enter & remain in them. ...

.......................................................



And then another one, even the Buddha could not help everyone.  I like the 
quote that "the patient needs to work harder than his/her doctor."  When 
something is not right or goes wrong, not blame other, not even yourself.   
Carefully examine, everything has it's multiple causes and conditions. This 
paste is from Ganakamoggallana Sutta, 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html

......
"Brahmin, such is my instruction for those monks who are learners who, 
perfection being not yet attained, dwell longing for the incomparable 
security from the bonds. But as for those monks who are perfected ones, the 
cankers destroyed, who have lived the life, done what was to be done, shed 
the burden, attained to their own goal, the fetters of becoming utterly 
destroyed, and who are freed by perfect profound knowledge -- these things 
conduce both to their abiding in ease here and now as well as to their 
mindfulness and clear consciousness."

When this had been said, the brahmin Ganaka-Moggallana spoke thus to the Lord:

"Now, on being exhorted thus and instructed thus by the good Gotama, do all 
the good Gotama's disciples attain the unchanging goal[8] -- nibbana or do 
some not attain it?"

"Some of my disciples, brahmin, on being exhorted and instructed thus by me, 
attain the unchanging goal -- nibbana; some do not attain it."

"What is the cause, good Gotama, what the reason that; since nibbana does 
exist, since the way leading to nibbana exists, since the good Gotama exists 
as adviser, some of the good Gotama's disciples on being exhorted thus and 
instructed thus by the good Gotama, attain the unchanging goal -- nibbana, 
but some do not attain it?"

"Well then, brahmin, I will question you on this point in reply. As it is 
pleasing to you, so you may answer me. What do you think about this, brahmin? 
Are you skilled in the way leading to Rajagaha?"

"Yes, sir, skilled am I in the way leading to Rajagaha."

"What do you think about this? A man might come along here wanting to go to 
Rajagaha. Having approached you, he might speak thus: 'I want to go to 
Rajagaha, sir; show me the way to this Rajagaha.' You might speak thus to 
him: "Yes, my good man, this road goes to Rajagaha; go along it for a while. 
When you have gone along it for a while you will see a village; go along for 
a while; when you have gone along for a while you will see a market town; go 
for a while. When you have gone along for a while you will see Rajagaha with 
its delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful fields, delightful 
ponds. But although he has been exhorted and instructed thus by you, he might 
take the wrong road and go westwards. Then a second man might come along 
wanting to go to Rajagaha...(as above)... you will see Rajagaha with its 
delightful...ponds.' Exhorted and instructed thus by you he might get to 
Rajagaha safely. What is the cause, brahmin, what the reason that, since 
Rajagaha does exist, since the way leading to Rajagaha exists, since you 
exist as adviser, the one man, although being exhorted and instructed thus by 
you, may take the wrong road and go westwards while the other may get to 
Rajagaha safely?"

"What can I, good Gotama, do in this matter? A shower of the way, good 
Gotama, am I."

"Even so, brahmin, nibbana does exist, the way leading to nibbana exists and 
I exist as adviser. But some of my disciples, on being exhorted and 
instructed thus by me attain the unchanging goal -- nibbana, some do not 
attain it. What can I, brahmin, do in this matter? A shower of the way, 
brahmin, is a Tathagata."

When this had been said, the brahmin Ganaka-Moggallana spoke thus to the Lord:

"Good Gotama, as for those persons who, in want of a way of living, having 
gone forth from home into homelessness without faith, who are crafty, 
fraudulent, deceitful, who are unbalanced and puffed up, who are shifty, 
scurrilous and of loose talk, the doors of whose sense-organs are not 
guarded, who do not know moderation in eating, who are not intent on 
vigilance, indifferent to recluseship, not of keen respect for the training, 
who are ones for abundance, lax, taking the lead in backsliding, shirking the 
burden of seclusion, who are indolent, of feeble energy, of confused 
mindfulness, not clearly conscious, not concentrated but of wandering minds, 
who are weak in wisdom, drivellers -- the good Gotama is not in communion 
with them. But as for those young men of respectable families who have gone 
forth from home into homelessness from faith, who are not crafty, fraudulent 
or deceitful, who are not unbalanced or puffed up, who are not shifty, 
scurrilous or of loose talk, the doors of whose sense-organs are guarded, who 
know moderation in eating, who are intent on vigilance, longing for 
recluseship, of keen respect for the training, who are not ones for 
abundance, not lax, shirking, backsliding, taking the lead in seclusion, who 
are of stirred up energy, self-resolute, with mindfulness aroused, clearly 
conscious, concentrated, their minds one-pointed, who have wisdom, are not 
drivellers -- the good Gotama is in communion with them. As, good Gotama, 
black gum is pointed to as chief of root-scents, as red sandalwood is pointed 
to as chief of the pith-scents, as jasmine is pointed to as chief of the 
flower scents -- even so is the exhortation of the good Gotama highest among 
the teachings of today. Excellent , good Gotama, excellent, good Gotama. As, 
good Gotama, one might set upright what had been upset, or disclose what had 
been covered, or show the way to one who had gone astray, or bring an 
oil-lamp into the darkness so that those with vision might see material 
shapes -- even so in many a figure is dhamma made clear by the good Gotama. I 
am going to the revered Gotama for refuge and to dhamma and to the Order of 
monks May the good Gotama accept me as a lay-follower going for refuge from 
today forth for as long as life lasts."


Hope you have a good jouney.

Anumodhana in your study.

Num



 
4127 From: Alex T 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 8:28am
Subject: Re: To Amara, et. al. : speech

 
  Dear Num,

--- Num wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I am going to make 3 posts rgd good speech, anger, the way and how 
to examine 
> dhamma.    I will pretty much cut and paste the sutta from 
accesstoinsight.   
> Pardon me if you guys have already read all of these.   Dhamma is 
deep, so 
> read it carefully and attentively, OK.  

   OK.  Yes, Sir Num.
> 
> Good speech:
> 
> Every fool who is born
> has an axe within his mouth
> with which he cuts himself
> when he uses wrong speech. 


> What do you guys think about it?

   Thank you.  I like it.  I'm sure that I'll like the other two, too.

With appreciation,
Alex Tran

 
4128 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 8:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello <Rikpa on the burning bldg.>

 
  Jina,

--- jinavamsa wrote:

> This may
> not be the 
> time, then, to develop the patience of an ox (to
> stay dumbly
> in a situation that calls for a movement elsewhere),
> as one 
> Thai teacher put it.

Ajahn Chah talked about 'buffalo equanimity'--thanks
for the reminder.

mike


 
4129 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  Erik

If you're looking for doctrinal differences, you need
go no further than the passage from the Geshe's
teaching quoted by you below (assuming it properly
reflects the Tibetan tradition) -

> Rather than use my own poor explanations, perhaps
> the words of 
> someone fully trained in my tradition will be more
> clear. Geshe Tapka 
> Topgyal: "... we could concentrate on the breath
> until we realize 
> emptiness. But mainly it is more effective to
> concentrate on 
> one's 'I' in an attempt to search the nature of 'I':
> How it arises, 
> how it appears to our mind as an independent
> self-entity. Then, once 
> we reach the understanding that there is no such 'I'
> that possesses 
> independent self-entity, or image, but mere absence
> of it, we simply 
> fix our mind upon that mere absence. When, at the
> initial stage, we 
> meditate in this manner, we reject the idea of 'I'.
> We are unable to 
> hold the concept of "I" when we realize mere absence
> of self-entity. 
> This problem will be naturally solved, as we
> continue to cultivate 
> this same practice on our 'I'."

'Concentrating one one's 'I' in an attempt to search
the nature of 'I'' would be anathema to the Pali
tradition, the essence of which is the development of
the understanding of a characteristic of a reality
appearing at the present moment.  I think if we were
to carefully analyse these 2 propositions a number of
inconsistencies would be apparent.  I am confident you
would not be able to find in the Pali literature any
support for the approach you have described.

Jon


 
4130 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Masterpiece

 
  Dear Jim,

Sorry to be so long in responding,

--- Jim Anderson  wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> 
> Thank-you for sharing Gayan's notes which I also
> found very interesting,
> especially on the meaning of 'cara.na'. Much
> appreciated! Bhikkhu Bodhi
> translates it as 'Faring on' as if it were the title
> of a specific painting
> which I happen to disagree with. The passage is also
> found in the
> Atthasalini on the meanings of citta (mind,
> consciousness). There are two
> distinct meanings of citta (Skt. citra) that I find
> quite confusing and they
> seem to be mixed together in the translation. One is
> a noun in the sense of
> 'picture, painting' while the other one is an
> adjective in the sense of
> 'variegated, diversified'. In the Atthasalini
> passage just before the
> discussion on the mind regarding its
> picture-creating nature
> (citta-kara.nataa), there is a discussion on mind
> regarding its variegated
> nature (cittataa) according to the translation. The
> latter interpretation is
> one I find puzzling and I wonder why the meaning of
> citta there could not
> also be 'picture' (picture-nature). It doesn't seem
> too difficult to imagine
> the mind as a picture in itself (or in other words a
> theatre, stage-show, or
> movie). So could the mind be seen both as picture
> and picture-creator or
> does this seem contradictory?

Being nearly entirely ignorant of the subject, it's
easy for me to speculate--couldn't this be a
deliberate three-way play on words?  Have you found
other examples of of double- or triple-entendres in
the canon?

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Best Wishes,

mike

p.s.  Thanks for the Sanskrit--it makes Gayan's point
much clearer.



 
 
4131 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  Hi, Jon (and Erik) -

In a message dated 3/19/01 9:07:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Jon writes:


> Erik
> 
> If you're looking for doctrinal differences, you need
> go no further than the passage from the Geshe's
> teaching quoted by you below (assuming it properly
> reflects the Tibetan tradition) -
> 
> > Rather than use my own poor explanations, perhaps
> > the words of 
> > someone fully trained in my tradition will be more
> > clear. Geshe Tapka 
> > Topgyal: "... we could concentrate on the breath
> > until we realize 
> > emptiness. But mainly it is more effective to
> > concentrate on 
> > one's 'I' in an attempt to search the nature of 'I':
> > How it arises, 
> > how it appears to our mind as an independent
> > self-entity. Then, once 
> > we reach the understanding that there is no such 'I'
> > that possesses 
> > independent self-entity, or image, but mere absence
> > of it, we simply 
> > fix our mind upon that mere absence. When, at the
> > initial stage, we 
> > meditate in this manner, we reject the idea of 'I'.
> > We are unable to 
> > hold the concept of "I" when we realize mere absence
> > of self-entity. 
> > This problem will be naturally solved, as we
> > continue to cultivate 
> > this same practice on our 'I'."
> 
> 'Concentrating one one's 'I' in an attempt to search
> the nature of 'I'' would be anathema to the Pali
> tradition, the essence of which is the development of
> the understanding of a characteristic of a reality
> appearing at the present moment.  I think if we were
> to carefully analyse these 2 propositions a number of
> inconsistencies would be apparent.  I am confident you
> would not be able to find in the Pali literature any
> support for the approach you have described.
> 
> Jon
> 
=================================
       Hmm. Now I'm not sure whether or not I might have read a Theravadin 
understanding into what Erik wrote that wasn't actually there. Erik, what do 
you think? Did I misinterpret what the Geshe said? How does one see the 
absence of an "I" in, or associated with, the khandas without examining the 
khandas? I assumed that such examination is the basis of the method: looking 
... looking for a self, a core, an essence, and coming up empty-handed, 
seeing only impersonal, dependently arisen, fleeting phenomena which are 
nothing in-and-of-themselves.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4132 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Thank you kindly for your reply. There is much to digest there. If I could
share some thoughts that arise on reflecting on your post.



>--- "Herman Hofman"  wrote:
>>
>> If there is no self, and there is belief in no-self, why is just
>about every
>> post here and elsewhere phrased in the language of self? (meaning
>I , me ,
>> you, them etc). What is meant when an email announces " I
>this....." "You
>> that"?
>
>Herman, no need to worry about conventional labels like personal
>pronouns. The Buddha used them all the time. Understanding no-self
>does not mean abandoning everyday language!
>

Yes, I agree. No need to seek the truth in "words", they are just labels,
pointers to realities and illusions.


>"Self" in the Buddhist sense refers to the specific term "atta"
>or "atman." No-self (anatta/anatman/emptiness) refers to the fact
>that nothing possess a fixed nature, or any "true" entitiness of its
>own. Anatta refers to the fact that among the parts of a collection
>there is truly nothing partaking of a fixed, or permanent "self,"

Yes, there is no lasting self. But some phenomena last longer than others.
And though the component particles may arise and decay billions of times
each second, they do not arise haphazardly, randomly, they arise according
to conditions. And the conditions do not change randomly or haphazardly. The
only phenomena we know about are the ones that reoccur, according to a
structure (the rest pass to quickly).

>that what we perceive is nothing but a changing collection of parts.
>There is truly no "there" there when we break it all down, in other
>words. Particles? Do they even have "true" existence? Modern physics
>says no to even this. So we really have nothing substantial anywhere!
>We do have appearances, though, and stragely enough, even though
>nothing possesses a fixed "core" or "essence" things still appear.

I am glad you mention physics. Perhaps I can slip biology in here. Our
bodies, though they are impermanent, are structured according to the genes.
The particles that make up the genes arise and decay rapidly, yet the
structure of the genes remains fairly much the same for the lifetime of the
body.

And this structure of the genes determines the structure of the body, the
component particles of which arise and decay billions of times each second.
Yet there is a structure to this body , a sense of self in biological terms.
The body recognises and accepts itself and rejects living matter with
genetic matter foreign to it.

And this body, impermanent as it is, conditions it's inseperable twin, the
mind.

My 3 year old nephew was run over by a car a month ago. His skull had
multiple fractures, and bone fragments became embedded in his brain. He has
lost all sense of smell and taste. The body conditions the mind. The mind
conditions the body. There is seeing, no seer, hearing, no hearer and in
this case neither smelling or smeller, tasting or taster.

>The capacity to change a characteristic of things. In this same way,
>emptiness/anatta is a characteristic of (and characterizes) all
>phenomena (even Nibbana), including the collection of parts you
>designate "Herman." "Herman" is merely a label applied to a
>collection of arms, legs, torso, head, born in a specific place, etc.
>There is no real "Howard," though. These are merely mental
>imputations, but, unfortunately, imputations we take for "self"
>or "real." By mistaking these labels of designation for "realities,"
>we suffer. Arahats have destroyed this tendency because they have
>eradicated all ignorance in regard to "self."
>
There is a chromosomally unchanging Howard, and Herman etc. Not visible to
the naked eye nor apparent after thirty years of introspection. Without the
chromosomes, this discussion forum would not exist.

This too is a reality.


Thank you again


Herman


 
4133 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:38pm
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4133?expand=1

 
  Azita

What a pleasant surprise!  Talk about a voice from the
past.  Conditions for a lot of thinking and stories,
mostly without mindfulness, of course.  No change
there in 20+ years.

Looking forward to hearing more from you.  Please feel
free to bring up anything that interests you.

My best to any of the others, if you are still in
contact.

Jon

--- azita gill  wrote: > hi,
dhamma friends, I have been reading a lot of the
> questions and answers on insight, as meditation
> subject and as subject for everyday use(so to
> speak).
> I know very little about mediation in fact, so I
> cannot comment with any degree of experience, but
> the
> common-old-garden-variety Sati i have been learning
> about for a long time.  I remember Khun Sujin's
> regular comment to us in our discussion groups
> was"what is your reality now?  Is it seeing,
> hearing,
> tasting, touching, smelling or thinking?"  those
> words, along with many others, have helped me thro.
> lots of situations.  This is a very practical life
> skill for me.  I am happy to have connected with
> dhamma friends again,          Metta,  Azita  
> 



 
4134 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:32pm
Subject: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Cybele, 

I hope you're getting on well in London. My mother
(who lives in Sussex) tells me she can no longer walk
on the beaches, in the woods or on the country lanes
because they are all closed for the first time
ever;-(! And here I am letting poor England down
further by using appetizers and realizing this and
that with zzzs everywhere! <Amara, I know when I'm
fighting a losing battle..;-(>  

Cybele, back to all your nice posts back to me and
others. Sorry for the delay, but I think we've all
been distracted by Erik's tasty brains. (I hope he
responds to your note to him, btw). If you don't mind,
I'll just pick up a couple of points only.

1. PASSION 
You asked if I find it 'totally incompatible with
appreciation of dhamma?'
Cybele, when we talk about passion, we're usually
referring to (strong) lobha (attachment). Any reality,
including this one, can be the object of understanding
and in this way it is not incompatible at all. What we
can say, is that at the moments of passion themselves,
there is no appreciation of dhamma. So they arise at
different moments. We all have a lot of lobha or
passion. It's good to recognize it rather than try to
suppress it as I know you realize, but we shouldn't
kid ourselves that it's anything other than lobha.

2. CULTIVATION
Let me quote you: '..I mean knowledge, awareness are
also a skill therefore you can develop it, being
always conscious of the ephemeral nature of everything
and therefore you have these little awakenings and you
fall asleep again for sue but it is like planting
seeds without being eager to collect the fruits but we
need 'cultivating' isn't it'.

Cybele, awareness (sati) arises just for a brief
moment to be aware on a reality such as seeing or
passion. When we have the idea of 'being conscious of
the ephemeral nature of everything', isn't this just
thinking? It doesn't mean it's not wise thinking, but
it's not the same as understanding the seeing or the
passion now.  If there isn't this direct understanding
or awareness there will continue to be the idea of
someone who is conscious or watching or observing or
noting realities because the namas (realities which
are experiencing an object) are being taken for a
self.

The moments of awareness and understanding can and
have to be cultivated, but WE can't do it....

Cybele, like you, I appreciate (and am very attached
to) my dhamma friends. Hopefully we'll all be around
for a good long while to help each other. Please let
us know anytime the going gets tough if we can help.
Never mind how 'frugal' the meals. 

Actually, I know this is a very frugal mouthful. When
I went through your delightful posts, there were so
many enjoyable and good comments, that there is little
for me to bite into!

I hope your friends are doing well and Cybele, thank
you for your kind comments too about being 
'warm-hearted', even though 'Anglo-saxon'. Sorry,
about the last bit (Anglo-saxon), maybe that will be
improved in another life! 

With best wishes and respect,
Sarah

p.s. what did you think of 'hard-core dhamma'? No? O.K
let's stick to dynamic meditators...it has a certain
'ring' to it.....


 
4135 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:06pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Dear Erik,

Anumoddhana for your answers.  I wonder if I may bother you
to further explain the following paragraph:

For this reason, anatta is the flipside of dependent
origination
(paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of all things,
nibbana
as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is also
ultimately no
different from dependent origination if you really
understand it.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 5:39 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self
>
>
> --- "Herman Hofman"
>  wrote:
> >
> > If there is no self, and there is belief in
> no-self, why is just
> about every
> > post here and elsewhere phrased in the language
> of self? (meaning
> I , me ,
> > you, them etc). What is meant when an email
> announces " I
> this....." "You
> > that"?
>
> Herman, no need to worry about conventional
> labels like personal
> pronouns. The Buddha used them all the time.
> Understanding no-self
> does not mean abandoning everyday language!
>
> "Self" in the Buddhist sense refers to the
> specific term "atta"
> or "atman." No-self (anatta/anatman/emptiness)
> refers to the fact
> that nothing possess a fixed nature, or any
> "true" entitiness of its
> own. Anatta refers to the fact that among the
> parts of a collection
> there is truly nothing partaking of a fixed, or
> permanent "self,"
> that what we perceive is nothing but a changing
> collection of parts.
> There is truly no "there" there when we break it
> all down, in other
> words. Particles? Do they even have "true"
> existence? Modern physics
> says no to even this. So we really have nothing
> substantial anywhere!
> We do have appearances, though, and stragely
> enough, even though
> nothing possesses a fixed "core" or "essence"
> things still appear.
>
> For this reason, anatta is the flipside of
> dependent origination
> (paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of
> all things, nibbana
> as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is
> also  ultimately no
> different from dependent origination if you
> really understand it.
>
> There are many subtle wrong views about anatta,
> and it takes a lot to
> get rid of them. Many people think anatta means
> "nonexistence," for
> example. But this is a major fallacy and a wrong
> view. Another
> mistaken view is that things have "true
> existence," perhaps the
> biggest problem most people have. There are many,
> many meditations to
> help get rid of misunderstandings relating to
> this. The Middle Way of
> understanding this is to thread the two extremes
> of nonexistence and
> inherent (non-produced) existence. Practicing
> vipassana will yield
> insight into this when insight arises in relation
> to paramattha
> dhammas. If you're a jhana meditator like some
> here, then in the
> jhanas you'll be able to perform meditations on
> this specifically.
> Either way will eventually bring about direct
> insight into the nature
> of this pervasive characteristic of all realities, and
> simultaneously, into the characteristics of
> impermanence and dukkha,
> and the Four Noble Truths. This is provided all
> the prerequisites
> have been met in other aspects of practice, such
> as keeping the
> precepts, dana, sila and removal of the five hindrances.
>
> > Taking it further, is there not a positive
> definition of not-self
> that can
> > be used? How is it that a not-characteristic is
> considered a
> pervasive
> > characteristic of all realities?
>
> The capacity to change a characteristic of
> things. In this same way,
> emptiness/anatta is a characteristic of (and
> characterizes) all
> phenomena (even Nibbana), including the
> collection of parts you
> designate "Herman." "Herman" is merely a label
> applied to a
> collection of arms, legs, torso, head, born in a
> specific place, etc.
> There is no real "Howard," though. These are
> merely mental
> imputations, but, unfortunately, imputations we
> take for "self"
> or "real." By mistaking these labels of
> designation for "realities,"
> we suffer. Arahats have destroyed this tendency
> because they have
> eradicated all ignorance in regard to "self."
>

 
4136 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:10pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  Dear Erik,

Yet another question from me.  How do you investigate
Nibbana being a jhana meditator?

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 
> I agree on the paramattha dhammas part. As you
> know, nibbana is also
> a paramattha dhamma, and is one object of
> investigation for certain
> types of jhana meditators. For these types of
> meditators watching the
> arising and passing away of namarupa isn't
> considered as effective.

 
4137 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:51:53 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight
Dear Jon,
I know where you take your writing.The book  abhidhaamatthasangha pts translation by a myanmar scholar.The view is from mahasi and his followers.That book in pali didn't talk about sukhavipassaka but is only the translator's notes.As for   ledi sayadaw ,he didn't have the same view with mahasi sayadaw because he thinked sukkhavipasaka is a harder method.Only yogi with higher wisdom can do it in contrary to mahasi sayadaw view of it is a easier way and anyone can do it.
I must ask you to read a book call -criticism and replies satipatthana by mahasi friend.They agree it might be a lokiya jhana after insight but not the lokuttara jhana based on patisambhida com.

> Teng Kee
> 
> Thanks for your comments.
> 
> > This is just mahasi sayadaw's view but surely not
> > the comment by commentators.
> 
> Just to clarify, the quote I gave was taken directly
> from the explanatory material that accompanies the
> translation of the section of the Abhidhammattha
> Sangaha.  It purports to be drawn mainly from 2
> commentaries on A-S - one from the late 12th century,
> the other from Ledi Sayadaw (late 19th century).  It
> is certainly nothing to do with Mahasi Sayadaw, as far
> as I know.
> 
> To be a
> > sukkhavipassaka,you must be a viewing type but
> > craving type for samathayanika(see satipatthana
> > sutta com).We have 2 samathayanika doing kaya and
> > vedana while sukkhavipassaka doing citta and dhamma
> > anupassana.I have to mention sukkhavipassaka will
> > have lokiya jhana after insight (khanika samadhi
> > follow by vikhamabhana samadhi)before that citta
> > vithi for lokuttara magga citta.See patisambhida
> > com.It is  only a thera view for sukkhavipasaka
> > having first jhana factors but the other two think
> > they will have higher jhana(see visuddhimagga)
> > If you think mahasi sayadaw is better than
> > buddhaghosa and dhammapala,I don't mind at all.
> > from Teng Kee
> 
> I will need to spend time working through this before
> I can give any meaningful response.  Are you able to
> give  any more exact details of the references you
> have in mind?  That would help a lot.
> 
> Jon
> 

 
4138 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 04:52:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight
Dear Robert,
I will do it in pts book but not in here because it have too many things to mention,not just like mahasi method of anyone can be a sukkhavipassaka and his method is mainly kaya anupassana(for samathayanika inferior type only)etc.I have to mention that we can't read the lost anguttara tika (not the one by sariputta )because it was lost.That book might have some helpful comments.Why 2 samathayanika (tanha type-see satipatthana sutta english translation online in www.accesstoinsight.org )have to emerge from jhana ?Maybe is because they are lacking of samadhi and having too much nivarana.Maybe sukkhavipassaka are having not enough insight?I have to read that comment in anguttara purana tika because i can only find it in netti and petakopadesa which is not helpful enough.Maybe the reverse is true -that samathayanika  is lacking of insight etc(see yuganaddha sutta in anugattara nikaya book 2.Petakopadesa and netti even said samathayanika will have dukkhapatipada but sukkhavipassaka will have sukkha patipada.I can 't agree on it because anguttara nikaya com said emerge from jhana will have sukkhapatipada.
The  only sure word i can say is that mahasi sayadaw is surely wrong.Doing insight (without coming out from jhana)with 8 kusala javana(khanika samadhi )will not have jhana factors and the samadhi bala(power).But emerge from jhana for samathayanika will have jhana factors because it will be khanika samadhi with the jhana javana.sukhavipassaka will have the samadhi like this(lokiya jhana)after almost completing his insight.
From Teng Kee




 Dear teng,
> This is a crucial topic and your input is very helpful. But
> could you be even more helpful by giving detailed explanations.
> I think I see what you are saying but I want to be sure. 
> Is it that the commentaries are saying that sukkhavipassaka only
> go by way of citta and dhammanupassana? Dhammanupassana is
> comprehensive and includes the 5 khandas that this wouldn't
> surprise me. There are several passages where jhayati(spelling?)
> are broken into two types: those who develop the 40 objects for
> samatha and those who insight the characteristics of the khandas
> , dhatus and ayatanas.
> robert
> 
> --- teng kee ong  wrote:
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonothan Abbott
> > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:50:22 +0800 (CST)
> > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying
> > insight
> > 
> > Dear Jon,
> > This is just mahasi sayadaw's view but surely not the comment
> > by commentators.To be a sukkhavipassaka,you must be a viewing
> > type but craving type for samathayanika(see satipatthana sutta
> > com).We have 2 samathayanika doing kaya and vedana while
> > sukkhavipassaka doing citta and dhamma anupassana.I have to
> > mention sukkhavipassaka will have lokiya jhana after insight
> > (khanika samadhi follow by vikhamabhana samadhi)before that
> > citta vithi for lokuttara magga citta.See patisambhida com.It
> > is  only a thera view for sukkhavipasaka having first jhana
> > factors but the other two think they will have higher
> > jhana(see visuddhimagga)
> > If you think mahasi sayadaw is better than buddhaghosa and
> > dhammapala,I don't mind at all.
> > from Teng Kee
> > 
> > 
> >  Erik

 
4139 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 8:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  Dear teng,
My comments are between yours:
--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> Dear Robert,
> I will do it in pts book but not in here because it have too
> many things to mention,

I will be looking forward to it. If you could send me your notes
beforehand this would be much appreciated.

not just like mahasi method of anyone
> can be a sukkhavipassaka and his method is mainly kaya
> anupassana(for samathayanika inferior type only)etc.

Yes, Although the mahasi people do mention other doors they seem
to emphasise mainly on kaya or the four elements. 

I have to
> mention that we can't read the lost anguttara tika (not the
> one by sariputta )because it was lost.That book might have
> some helpful comments.

OK. Sad news indeed- the ancient tikas are very useful.

Why 2 samathayanika (tanha type-see
> satipatthana sutta english translation online in
> www.accesstoinsight.org )have to emerge from jhana ?Maybe is
> because they are lacking of samadhi and having too much
> nivarana.

Isn't it because in jhana because of the fixed concentration 
awreness of rise and fall is practically unattainable. it is
immediately after leaving jhana that insight can understand the
ephemeral nature of the jhana factors?

Maybe sukkhavipassaka are having not enough insight?I
> have to read that comment in anguttara purana tika because i
> can only find it in netti and petakopadesa which is not
> helpful enough.Maybe the reverse is true -that samathayanika 
> is lacking of insight etc(see yuganaddha sutta in anugattara
> nikaya book 2.Petakopadesa and netti even said samathayanika
> will have dukkhapatipada but sukkhavipassaka will have sukkha
> patipada.I can 't agree on it because anguttara nikaya com
> said emerge from jhana will have sukkhapatipada.

This is very interesting. In the netti it indicates that
neyya(slow ones) need to be  taught many  details and go via
insight rather than samatha. This seems to show that the
sukkhavipassaka is for the less developed among us (neyya).I can
find exact references if this is useful.


> The  only sure word i can say is that mahasi sayadaw is surely
> wrong.Doing insight (without coming out from jhana)with 8
> kusala javana(khanika samadhi )will not have jhana factors and
> the samadhi bala(power).But emerge from jhana for
> samathayanika will have jhana factors because it will be
> khanika samadhi with the jhana javana.sukhavipassaka will have
> the samadhi like this(lokiya jhana)after almost completing his
> insight.

OK. You may be  right here.  I would maintain that during
initial stages of insight, (i.e. preceeding the first
vipassana-nana (nama-rupaparicchedda -nana) and onwards up until
the later stages of vipassana, but before actual path moments)
that only khanika samadhi is needed. During actual moments of
vipassana this samadhi, although momentary is very strong -
close to upacara (access) but less than full jhana. Now in the
moments just preceeding penetration of nibbana it may be that
all the jhana factors are present and the power of samadhi is
equivalent to that of jhana. Certainly, the moments when nibbana
is insighted are considered as jhana, even for the
sukkhavipassaka.
Can you agree with this?

I think it would be useful to discuss this with people like Nina
van gorkom or some of the pali experts at the foundation in
Bangkok. They would have translators available for such a
discussion.


Robert


 
4140 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:06pm
Subject: Re: Sammaditthi for Sarah

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Jon (and Erik) -
> 
> In a message dated 3/19/01 9:07:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Jon writes:

> > 'Concentrating one one's 'I' in an attempt to search
> > the nature of 'I'' would be anathema to the Pali
> > tradition, the essence of which is the development of
> > the understanding of a characteristic of a reality
> > appearing at the present moment.

No one's looking for a "self," especially not when the entire point 
of this meditation is to recognize selflessness (emptiness)! What is 
done is that anything arising to the mind partaking of a "self" is 
negated as an impossible mode of existence. To know what these 
impossible modes are requires some training and preparatory 
analytical meditations to clear away the coarsest wrong views. If you 
known Buddhagosa's analyses of anatta, then you will have many of the 
analyses I mention (I believe Vis. XX). But this is subtle stuff too. 
It can take a long time to really understand what wrong views are in 
the first place, and this is the role of preparatory analytical 
meditation, which by themselves can take you a VERY long way, to the 
very brink of insight itself.

>  I think if we were
> > to carefully analyse these 2 propositions a number of
> > inconsistencies would be apparent.  I am confident you
> > would not be able to find in the Pali literature any
> > support for the approach you have described.

I am confident you have not understood it as it was intended, nor 
could you (or anyone) without a lot of training. I am merely 
suggesting that one be careful looking at another system and not get 
tripped up by differences in approach and terminology. I am finding 
just how hard this is for me here. I have learned just how ingorant I 
am of how some things are interperterd in Theravada, and how much I 
have to learn before I can hope to communicate effectively in ITS 
language coming from ITS point of view. I will say the same is true 
for looking at anyone's school, and I am saying this with a 
completely new appreciation for what this means, thanks to the very 
tough customers in this neck of the woods (for whom I am deeply 
grateful)! :) :) :)

That said, I think it is helpful to understand the principle of these 
meditations and WHY they work. WHY does watching present realities 
eventually bring about insight? WHY does meditating on emptiness 
eventually bring about insight? Whatever scriptural collections 
things appear in is far less important than knowing why a given 
meditation will yield the result, I think. Not that this would be 
easy to articulate, but I am curious if anyone here can. That would 
help explain why we do these things, I think. I am certainly curious.

> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> =================================
>        Hmm. Now I'm not sure whether or not I might have read a 
Theravadin 
> understanding into what Erik wrote that wasn't actually there. 
Erik, what do 
> you think? 

I think your connection clarified my understanding of the commonality 
between the two meditations, as what I mention is coming from the 
anatta side of negating the impossible mode of existence (atta) as it 
appears, rather than investigating the character as it appears by 
itself. Honestly, this is a very interesting observation you've just 
made, at least I think so. I have never had to try to understand 
satipatthana in terms of this before, but you drew the link, and in 
my thinking very carefully about it, I'm asking myself why didn't I 
see that connection before?

> Did I misinterpret what the Geshe said? How does one see the 
> absence of an "I" in, or associated with, the khandas without 
examining the 
> khandas? 

One doesn't. How could one?

> I assumed that such examination is the basis of the method: looking 
> ... looking for a self, a core, an essence, and coming up empty-
handed, 
> seeing only impersonal, dependently arisen, fleeting phenomena 
which are 
> nothing in-and-of-themselves.

That would be on the money, as they say. That is the emptiness stragy 
in a nutshell. Cutting through appearances of self-existence.

 
4141 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:14pm
Subject: Re: Self / Not self

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> 
> Anumoddhana for your answers.  I wonder if I may bother you
> to further explain the following paragraph:
> 
> For this reason, anatta is the flipside of dependent
> origination
> (paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of all things,
> nibbana
> as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is also
> ultimately no
> different from dependent origination if you really
> understand it.

There is no difference between anatta and paticca samuppada at core. 
Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a slightly different 
angle. Anatta denotes this reality from perspective of lack of fixed, 
substantial essence. Paticca samuppada, same reality from the 
perspective of dependence. Two lenses or angles, one reality. One 
imples the other as well, anatta implies dependence; dependence 
implies anatta; anicca implies dependence and anatta; anicca implies 
dukkha. Many many ways of looking at this problem!

 
4142 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:43pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Friends,

Alex asked me to post a question I'd asked her
off-line.  It's out of the context of the discussion
we were having, so I hope it makes sense:

> >Still, it does seem to me that an arising citta
> >would
> >already have an object, so how could it have the
> >subsiding citta as an object too (or was it
> >vice-versa)?  You would know this a lot better than
> >I...

The question had to do with whether an arising citta
'sees' the previous, subsiding citta, or something to
that effect.  I asked it because I thought that I
recalled reading that a citta only takes one object.

Thanks in advance.

mike


 
4143 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Erik,
I agree. Sometimes when we say anatta it is not clear that the
meaning is as  conditioned phenomena. That is why the details
help us to understand better.
Robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- "Kom Tukovinit" 
> wrote:
> > Dear Erik,
> > 
> > Anumoddhana for your answers.  I wonder if I may bother you
> > to further explain the following paragraph:
> > 
> > For this reason, anatta is the flipside of dependent
> > origination
> > (paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of all things,
> > nibbana
> > as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is also
> > ultimately no
> > different from dependent origination if you really
> > understand it.
> 
> There is no difference between anatta and paticca samuppada at
> core. 
> Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a slightly
> different 
> angle. Anatta denotes this reality from perspective of lack of
> fixed, 
> substantial essence. Paticca samuppada, same reality from the 
> perspective of dependence. Two lenses or angles, one reality.
> One 
> imples the other as well, anatta implies dependence;
> dependence 
> implies anatta; anicca implies dependence and anatta; anicca
> implies 
> dukkha. Many many ways of looking at this problem!
> 
> 


 
4145 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> Alex asked me to post a question I'd asked her
> off-line.  It's out of the context of the discussion
> we were having, so I hope it makes sense:
> 
> > >Still, it does seem to me that an arising citta
> > >would
> > >already have an object, so how could it have the
> > >subsiding citta as an object too (or was it
> > >vice-versa)?  You would know this a lot better than
> > >I...
> 
> The question had to do with whether an arising citta
> 'sees' the previous, subsiding citta, or something to
> that effect.  I asked it because I thought that I
> recalled reading that a citta only takes one object.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> mike


Dear Alex and Mike,

From my understanding, both the citta and its object arise from 
conditions, therefore when the conditions are right, for example when 
there is sati arising with it there could be study of the previous 
citta which would make the characteristics of the citta that had just 
fallen away the object of the study.  For example anger that had just 
fallen away that instant could become the object of kusala sati 
arising to study its crude and violent nature, at which instant the 
anger is replaced by a moment of peaceful bhavana.  But for that tiny 
instant only, then anger might or might not arise again according to 
conditions.  When the conditions are right, however, it is surprising 
how a tiny instant of awareness can attenuate our clinging to anger, 
sometimes stopping it entirely!

Hope this helps, dear friends,

Amara

 
4146 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  "It is true that the right samadhi could lead to panna, but not without
the studies of realities, even based on a higher peace of the jhana."

I like the way you put it like above.
However with samadhi at the level of equanimity one can not see realities, 
without getting "all shook up". That's why. in karuna to all beings, I will 
never undertake to suggest  to them to "see" realty without the development 
of equanimity.

Quoting largely from Visuddhi Magga, equanimity can  be understood as 
follows:

In answer to the question of "How amny kinds of concentration are there?", 
it can be answered as : there are two kinds, [1]that accompanied by bliss 
and [2]that accompanied by equanimity.
( access concentration can be accompanied by bliss or accompanied by 
equanimity. )

Equanimity can also be understood from the followings, too:
In the third tetrad, the first jhana has five factors:
[1]applied thought
[2]sustained thought
[3]happiness
[4]bliss
[5]concentration
The second jhana has three fasctors after eliminating the first two, 
[1]applied and [2]sustained thought
The third jhana has two factors, after eliminating factor [3]happiness
The fourth jhana has [4]bliss eliminated and the concentration is 
accompanied only by equanimity

( Among those that bring absorption, the ten kasinas, together with 
mindfulness of breathing bring all the four jhanas. )

When the state of equanimity is intensified: the states called 
[concentration] and [understanding] are developed, coupled together, without 
either one exceeding the other. (very important)

He dwells in equanimity: it watches things as they arise [UPApattito 
IKKHATI], thus it is in equanimity [upekkha- or looking]; it sees fairly, 
sees without partiality [a-pakkha-patita].

Equanimity of ten kinds:
[1] six factored equanimity, in one whose cankers are destroyed
[2] Equanimity as a devine abiding
[3] Equanimity as an enlightenment factor
[4] Equanimity of energy
[5] Equanimity about formations (8 kinds of equanimity arise through 
concentration, 10 kinds of equanimity arise through insight)
[6] Equanimity as a feeling
[7] Equanimity about insight
[8] Equanimity as specific neutrality
[9] Equanimity of jhana
[10] Purifying Euquanimity

Out of the ten, only equanimity of energy and equanimity as feeling are 
different from both and from each other.

Hope the above helps in clarifying and understanding of Equanimity.

with metta,
des



>From: "Amara" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom
>Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:48:30 -0000
>
>--- "Desmond Chiong" 
>wrote:
> > When you read at this anapana sutta carefully, you will notice that
>through
> > the proper practice of anapana meditation:
> > one begins to notice the [1]body, [3]mind and the cetasika
>[3]feeling and
> > [4] metal formations.
> > But the noticing of them will be of no avail until one can "see" the
>mind,
> > body and cetasikas with [7] equanimity.
>
>Dear Des,
>
>May I ask what you mean by equanimity here?  In the Tipitaka, samatha
>is peacefulness from lobha, dosa and moha, therefore any instant the
>citta evolves with dana, sila or bhavana.  Vipassana at each moment
>that sati arises in daily life is also bhavana, the development of
>panna that knows things as they really are.  As in several of Jon's
>post, it is one of the five components of the eightfold magga citta
>that is being developed each time sati arises to be aware of things as
>they really are right now, as when we read this message.  Realities
>are appearing and we do not know that the body is in contact with the
>chair or the keyboard, that hardness appears, that motion and tension
>is being experienced through the body sense as you type and move the
>mouse. That through the eyes realities appear and fall away, all the
>panna that could be accumulated through instants of sati right now.
>And the peace from all kilesa at the tiny instants of sati, when the
>self is not there and panna accumulates right understanding further.
>It is true that the right samadhi could lead to panna, but not without
>the studies of realities, even based on a higher peace of the jhana.
>But most people who have lost the skills of samadhi do not need this
>round abouts route to sati, they could study as most did in the times
>of the Buddha, where those with Sukkhavipassaka were more numerous
>even among the bhikkhus.  This is not to mention all the millions of
>lay people who also attained different levels without becoming
>ordained, although those who became the arahanta would not remain a
>layperson any more.
>
>Amara
>
>
> > Therefore if one practices anapana meditation to the higher level of
> > concentration and reaches the point of equanimity in [samatha] or
> > [appetizer], one can then automatically acheive the [vipassana] or
>[main
> > entree] and "see" the mind, body and cetasika.
> > Proper insight is after all not that difficult to understand but can
>be
> > acheived only through hard practice.
> >
> > with metta,
> > des
> >
> >
 
4147 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: On strategy (Erik)

 
  Dear Erik,
We all have a tendency to break Buddha's exhortations about speech. In 
discussing Dhamma, it's very easy to forget that: "One should not 
insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage." 
[MN 139]. When you used the word "strategy" a few days ago, there was 
quite an outcry about that word. Was the outcry an insistence on local 
language and overriding normal usage? It may well have been, but I'm 
not so sure…

In any case, you have good company in using "strategy". Bhikkhu Bodhi 
wrote: "The path begins with the minimal degree of right understanding 
and right thought need to take up the training, and there unfolds 
through its three groups as a systematic stategy designed to uproot 
the defilements that generate suffering." (Introduction to 
Nyanaponika's "Vision of Dhamma", BPS). I'm not sure how others in dsg 
would think about this view, but to me it sounds about right. This is 
quite different from taking an "anatta strategy", though, because an 
"anatta strategy" might end up being excessively narrow. Bhikkhu Bodhi 
writes (Comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma, BPS pariyatti edition, 
2000): "When insight reaches its culmination, it settles upon one of 
three contemplations--of impermanence, or suffering, or non-self--as 
determined by the inclination of the meditator." Which of the three 
contemplations are insighted is not a choice of strategy. Just before 
magga and phala, for a few brief moments, one of the three 
characteristics becomes extraordinarily clear. There's no choosing 
which becomes clear, and it may well be a mistake to choose one of the 
three as a "strategy."

Dan

 
4148 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:49pm
Subject: "Discouraging" (Howard)

 
  Dear Howard,
When I read the Suttas, I feel "satisfied and delight in the Blessed 
One's words" and well "instructed, urged, roused, and encouraged." 
When I read the interview with Nina, I feel dissatisfied and do not 
delight in the words. I certainly don't feel urged, roused, and 
encouraged--more like sedated and discouraged. Why is that? I'm not 
exactly sure, but it seems that what she says is so much different 
from what the Buddha said. Many people have noted that Nina and some 
of the dsg seem to discourage formal practice of meditation, but I 
have never seen anything in the Tipitaka or commentaries to even hint 
at such discouragement. There is also a passive, fatalistic sense to 
some of the writing--a sense that is utterly lacking in Buddha's 
words. 

Buddha said: "One CAN abandon the unwholesome, O Monks! …One CAN 
cultivate the wholesome, O Monks!" (AN 2:19). And a large part of his 
teaching is devoted to practical advice on how to do so: "Meditate, 
Ananda, and do not delay or you will regret it later." (MN 152). How 
to meditate? Satipatthana sutta and anapanasati  sutta give some good 
suggestions, and meditation on illimitables and the kasinas and other 
suggestions are mentioned frequently. It requires a good deal of 
effort, as suggested by the commentary to the Sutta Nipata (Simile of 
the serpent) indicates. It discusses how a snake sheds its skin as a 
simile for how a monk walks on the path: "It is similar with a monk. 
The 'law of his own species' is sila. Standing firm in his own law of 
virtue, and seeing the misery involved, he becomes disgusted with the 
'old worn-out skin' of the 'here and beyond,' comprising (such pairs 
of opposites) as his own and others' personalized existence, tec., 
which are productive of suffering. Thus he becomes disgusted and, 
seeking the support of a noble friend, he summons is utmost strength 
by way of the path factor, right effort. Dividing day and night into 
six periods, during daytime, while walking up and down or sitting, he 
purifies the mind from obstructive things; doing so also in the first 
and the last watch of the night, he lies down for rest only in the 
night's middle watch. Thus he strives and struggles. Just as the 
serpent bends its tail, so he bends his legs to a crosslegged posture. 
As the serpent exhales forcefully, so the mond musters all his 
unremittinig strength. As the serpent expands its hood, so the monk 
works for an expansion of his insight. And just as the serpent sheds 
its old skin, so the monk abandons the here anre the beyond, and being 
now freed of the burden, he goes forth to the Nibbana-element that is 
without a residue of the groups of existence." 

One of the things that sets Buddhism apart is the abundance of good 
instructions for how proceed.


Dan

 
4149 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:50pm
Subject: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the thoughtful post! I always enjoy your insights. I don't 
always agree, but I do always learn something. Thanks. I'm sure I 
don't have a lot of time before my fever climbs back up (it's been 
running up and down from about 102 to 105.6 at its highest), so I 
can't write a lot.

First, in you quote about right view being the forerunner (MN 117), I 
noticed you clipped off what Buddha said was the mundane right view, 
most importantly that it is a belief in kamma/vipaka and that there 
are enlightened people. 

You write: "There are many, many opportunities for moments of metta 
when one understands the value of friendliness and kindness to others. 
I don't need to go looking for a corpse…." Good for you, Sarah. As for 
me, I'm not so confident that attachment is such a small fetter for me 
that I'd feel comfortable explicitly rejecting Buddha's exhortation to 
meditate on foulness as a way to combat the taint of sense desire.

Dan

 
4150 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:02am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Dear Erik,

More questions for you.  It would be very helpful to me to
see further (nit-picking) details.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 

> > For this reason, anatta is the flipside of dependent
> > origination
> > (paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of
> all things,
> > nibbana
> > as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is also
> > ultimately no
> > different from dependent origination if you really
> > understand it.
>

> There is no difference between anatta and paticca
> samuppada at core.
> Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a
> slightly different
> angle.

I assume the second statement here explains the first.  I
have some understandings that are at odd with what you are
saying, so I hope you may be able to explain it.  I
understand there are some differences between realities that
are part of paticca samuppada and realities with anatta as
their characteristics.
1) Paticasamupada includes all the kandhas, but doesn't
include nibbana.  Anatta includes all realities, including
nibanna.
2) Paticasamupada explains the process/causality of
realities (only) leading to rebirth at this moment /
patisandhi.  Anatta is a characteristic of all realities.
3) Paticasamupada doesn't include the realities (processes)
leading to nibanna.  It doesn't describe Satipatthana, nor
the intellectual insights that lead to satipatthana.  Anatta
includes everything.

Details, please!

> Anatta denotes this reality from
> perspective of lack of fixed,
> substantial essence.

Since Nibanna neither rises or falls.  Do you see it as
being fixed, being substantial?   How do you explain to a
person (like me) how anatta is a characteristic of nibanna?

> Paticca samuppada, same
> reality from the
> perspective of dependence. Two lenses or angles,
> one reality. One
> imples the other as well,

Since (my understanding) the realities related to the two
(paticasamuddha and anatta) completely match, I still don't
see this.

> anatta implies
> dependence;

Since nibanna is not a conditioned reality, how doess
anatta, a characterisitc of nibbana, imply dependence?

> dependence
> implies anatta;  anicca implies dependence and
> anatta; anicca implies
> dukkha. Many many ways of looking at this problem!

Question similar to the one above...  It would be helpful to
me if you go into more details of how these imply one
another.

Thanks.

kom

 
4151 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:09am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Mike and Alex,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: m. nease 
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Alex asked me to post a question I'd asked her
> off-line.  It's out of the context of the discussion
> we were having, so I hope it makes sense:
>
> > >Still, it does seem to me that an arising citta
> > >would
> > >already have an object, so how could it have the
> > >subsiding citta as an object too (or was it
> > >vice-versa)?  You would know this a lot better than
> > >I...
>
> The question had to do with whether an arising citta
> 'sees' the previous, subsiding citta, or something to
> that effect.  I asked it because I thought that I
> recalled reading that a citta only takes one object.

Can I ask the question this way?  How can a citta "see" a
reality that no longer exists?

kom

 
4152 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:21am
Subject: Re: The Interview with Nina van Gorkom

 
  > However with samadhi at the level of equanimity one can not see 
realities, 
> without getting "all shook up". That's why. in karuna to all beings, 
I will 
> never undertake to suggest  to them to "see" realty without the 
development 
> of equanimity.


Dear Des,

I think our problem lies in the definition of realities.  When I say 
realities as they really are I refer to the ultimate truth, 
paramatthadhamma, not just 'all beings' but what all things in the 
world are composed of.  All the world, beings and others are composed 
of nama, intelligence/consciousness/element that knows or experiences, 
and rupa, everything else, the dead body, minerals, electricity, 
space, all that cannot experience anything.  The paramatthadhamma or 
ultimate realities comprise the citta, the cetasika, the rupa and 
nibbana.  Vipassana or mental development cannot have other arammana 
than these four, although other meditation can.  

This is why the development of the brahma vihara is not vipassana 
bhavana, although they can be developed 'simultaneously' since the 
citta is so fast, they could alternate, especially since they are 
both kusala.  Sati arises only with kusala citta and the moment of 
study there is peace from any lobha dosa or moha automatically, which 
is the result of seeing realities as they really are, not as beings 
but as visible object appearing uniquely through the eyes, as thoughts 
evolving in karuna, for example, uniquely appearing through the mind, 
etc.  Which is why moments of karuna or any of the brahma vihara are 
not the same moments of vipassana, though the speed at which they 
occur might make one think so.  Not long ago we discussed this, you 
might find posts no. 3739 interesting.  Please read it first and tell 
us what you think.

Amara

 
4153 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Very brief (Sarah)

 
  The fever is just there.
It's not your fever.

with metta,
des


>From: Dan
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Very brief (Sarah)
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:50:24 -0000
>
>Dear Sarah,
>Thanks for the thoughtful post! I always enjoy your insights. I don't
>always agree, but I do always learn something. Thanks. I'm sure I
>don't have a lot of time before my fever climbs back up (it's been
>running up and down from about 102 to 105.6 at its highest), so I
>can't write a lot.
>
>First, in you quote about right view being the forerunner (MN 117), I
>noticed you clipped off what Buddha said was the mundane right view,
>most importantly that it is a belief in kamma/vipaka and that there
>are enlightened people.
>
>You write: "There are many, many opportunities for moments of metta
>when one understands the value of friendliness and kindness to others.
>I don't need to go looking for a corpse…." Good for you, Sarah. As for
>me, I'm not so confident that attachment is such a small fetter for me
>that I'd feel comfortable explicitly rejecting Buddha's exhortation to
>meditate on foulness as a way to combat the taint of sense desire.
>
>Dan
>
>
>


 
4154 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi, Mike (and all) -

In a message dated 3/20/01 8:56:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
mike nease writes:


> Dear Friends,
> 
> Alex asked me to post a question I'd asked her
> off-line.  It's out of the context of the discussion
> we were having, so I hope it makes sense:
> 
> > >Still, it does seem to me that an arising citta
> > >would
> > >already have an object, so how could it have the
> > >subsiding citta as an object too (or was it
> > >vice-versa)?  You would know this a lot better than
> > >I...
> 
> The question had to do with whether an arising citta
> 'sees' the previous, subsiding citta, or something to
> that effect.  I asked it because I thought that I
> recalled reading that a citta only takes one object.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> mike
> 
===============================
       My unscholarly response would be that a current citta "sees" a 
previous citta when the current citta is (at least in part) a memory. 
       This leads me to a different but related question: What exactly 
constitutes mindfulness? I have read that one citta may be mindful of a 
previous citta. To me, this is impossible. The previous citta, with all its 
accompaniments is *gone*. All that could be left is a memory trace (unless, 
Buddha forbid, the Sarvastivadins were correct! ;-). It seems to me more 
reasonable that a form of parallel processing is in effect, in the sense that 
mindfulness is a factor accompanying a current citta with the feature of 
intensifying and clarifying the "knowing" of that citta. No doubt, this 
so-called "reasonable" understanding of mine is contrary to the Abhidhammic 
understanding. I would much appreciate an explanation of the traditional 
Theravadin understanding of this point.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4155 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:42am
Subject: Re: On strategy (Erik)

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Just before 
> magga and phala, for a few brief moments, one of the three 
> characteristics becomes extraordinarily clear. There's no choosing 
> which becomes clear, and it may well be a mistake to choose one of 
the 
> three as a "strategy."

Hi Dan, I agree with you here about the use of the term strategy. In 
fact, I didn't even adopt this usage until I'd seen Thanisarro 
Bikkhu's usage of it in this context, and said, "yeah!" :)

Anyway, on your last point, I completely agree with you meaning, 
though I will say that in the system I've been trained in, while 
anicca and dukkha are obviously indispensible factors and aspects of 
this same truth, all the effort is expended on cracking this "wrong 
view" nut via the anatta angle, so all the meditations emphasize this 
approach. Why? The reasoning given is that the biggest problem most 
people have with not comprehending Right View is the tendency to 
reify the body, mind, and phenomena as atta.

It is helpful to understand what "reify" means in this sense. It 
means to "make concrete" in the mind; it means to attribute "true" 
or "independent" existence to dhammas, which is a totally imposible 
condition, since all sankharas depend. In this sense anatta is taught 
as an "antidote" strategy to uproot this common tendency to mistake 
the khanas AND phenomena for "self." 

For a very broad swath of meditators this approach is best. For 
others it is perhaps not as helpful. So it is in this sense I use the 
term "anatta strategy," which is the same usage, I believe, as 
Thanissaro Bikkhu's.

 
4156 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] "Discouraging" (Howard)

 
  Hi, Dan -

In a message dated 3/20/01 11:16:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Dan writes:


> Dear Howard,
> When I read the Suttas, I feel "satisfied and delight in the Blessed 
> One's words" and well "instructed, urged, roused, and encouraged." 
> When I read the interview with Nina, I feel dissatisfied and do not 
> delight in the words. I certainly don't feel urged, roused, and 
> encouraged--more like sedated and discouraged. Why is that? I'm not 
> exactly sure, but it seems that what she says is so much different 
> from what the Buddha said. Many people have noted that Nina and some 
> of the dsg seem to discourage formal practice of meditation, but I 
> have never seen anything in the Tipitaka or commentaries to even hint 
> at such discouragement. There is also a passive, fatalistic sense to 
> some of the writing--a sense that is utterly lacking in Buddha's 
> words. 
> 
> Buddha said: "One CAN abandon the unwholesome, O Monks! …One CAN 
> cultivate the wholesome, O Monks!" (AN 2:19). And a large part of his 
> teaching is devoted to practical advice on how to do so: "Meditate, 
> Ananda, and do not delay or you will regret it later." (MN 152). How 
> to meditate? Satipatthana sutta and anapanasati  sutta give some good 
> suggestions, and meditation on illimitables and the kasinas and other 
> suggestions are mentioned frequently. It requires a good deal of 
> effort, as suggested by the commentary to the Sutta Nipata (Simile of 
> the serpent) indicates. It discusses how a snake sheds its skin as a 
> simile for how a monk walks on the path: "It is similar with a monk. 
> The 'law of his own species' is sila. Standing firm in his own law of 
> virtue, and seeing the misery involved, he becomes disgusted with the 
> 'old worn-out skin' of the 'here and beyond,' comprising (such pairs 
> of opposites) as his own and others' personalized existence, tec., 
> which are productive of suffering. Thus he becomes disgusted and, 
> seeking the support of a noble friend, he summons is utmost strength 
> by way of the path factor, right effort. Dividing day and night into 
> six periods, during daytime, while walking up and down or sitting, he 
> purifies the mind from obstructive things; doing so also in the first 
> and the last watch of the night, he lies down for rest only in the 
> night's middle watch. Thus he strives and struggles. Just as the 
> serpent bends its tail, so he bends his legs to a crosslegged posture. 
> As the serpent exhales forcefully, so the mond musters all his 
> unremittinig strength. As the serpent expands its hood, so the monk 
> works for an expansion of his insight. And just as the serpent sheds 
> its old skin, so the monk abandons the here anre the beyond, and being 
> now freed of the burden, he goes forth to the Nibbana-element that is 
> without a residue of the groups of existence." 
> 
> One of the things that sets Buddhism apart is the abundance of good 
> instructions for how proceed.
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
=================================
       I agree with the sense of your post. My reaction to the interview was 
similar to yours. I would add just a couple thoughts: (1) As you say, it is 
only some on the list who give little value to formal meditation, and (2) In 
the case of these folks, there still is a practice of cultivation involving a 
day-to-day and moment-by-moment exercise of mindfulness, right effort, and 
guarding the senses guided by intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma. They seem 
to follow this path based on the assumption that it is really all that is 
needed, and/or that formal meditation may, for one reason or another, either 
be too hard or likely to be improperly executed. This is not a wildly 
unreasonable approach, but is one that I don't agree with and that I think, 
as you do, is at variance with what the Buddha taught. But if this (limited) 
practice is carried out faithfully, consistently, and devotedly, I think it 
can take one very far, further, in fact, than a more traditional practice 
that is only done sporadically or halfheartedly. So any worthwhile Buddhist 
practice is exactly that - worthwhile buddhist practice. 
       Again, I agree with what you write in this post, but I thought it 
might be worthwhile to say a little more in a countervailing fashion.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4157 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:53am
Subject: Re: "Discouraging" (Howard)

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Many people have noted that Nina and some 
> of the dsg seem to discourage formal practice of meditation, but I 
> have never seen anything in the Tipitaka or commentaries to even 
hint 
> at such discouragement. There is also a passive, fatalistic sense 
to 
> some of the writing--a sense that is utterly lacking in Buddha's 
> words. 

Dan, thank you again for saying so much more eloquently something 
that struck me very hard on reading some of the messages here. This 
stuff, to me, is 100% about applying it IN PRACTICE for the sole aim 
of awakening HERE AND NOW, not in some hypothetical future life, 
which could possibly even be in the hell-realms if there's some 
akusala hanging around looking for a means of expression. 

Furthermore, it is my understadning that intensive practice can even 
neutralize this akusala and prevent even this type of kamma from 
manifesting, though I am displaying my ignorance of the subtleties of 
teachings on kamma, and I hope someone could correct me if I'm wrong 
in saying this. 

I don't recall who said it here, that any merit we accumulate in this 
lifetime though bhavana doesn't manifest in this lifetime. I'd really 
like to see references for this from the Suttas, because I have never 
come across anything that would discourage practicing to awaken here 
and now as this notion would for me, that what we practice now won't 
have an effect such that we may awaken in THIS lifetime. That sounds 
VERY off to me, frankly, but I suspend judgment awaiting further 
evidence.

 
4158 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:13am
Subject: Re: "Discouraging" (Howard)

 
  Dear Howard,

Anumodana with this excellent analysis.  Personally I have never been 
interested in meditation, so I have always found the Buddha's 
teachings very encouraging, at least there is a way out and wonderful 
knowledge that I have never known to be learnt.  I always love to 
learn new things and have much chanda in acquiring knowledge so that 
since I 'practice' satipatthana I have always been avid of learning 
more about the realities as they really are at all instants possible, 
and the piti that accompanies instants of knowledge is something lobha 
would be very satisfied with, it is so much fun as well.  Which is why 
I find the Buddha's exhortation to be brave and cheerful along the 
path is so realistic, it does need a lot of bravery to walk this path 
of truth and reality because it is not easy and the more one walks the 
more one realizes the truth about oneself and all one has accumulated 
that has kept us in samsara 2500 years after the Buddha's time, until 
now the sasana shows many signs of decline.  But I think it is 
encouraging that we have most of the teachings still available and can 
glimpse the path the Buddha discovered, and could never encourage 
others enough to study and enjoy it as much as I do.

Amara


>        I agree with the sense of your post. My reaction to the 
interview was 
> similar to yours. I would add just a couple thoughts: (1) As you 
say, it is 
> only some on the list who give little value to formal meditation, 
and (2) In 
> the case of these folks, there still is a practice of cultivation 
involving a 
> day-to-day and moment-by-moment exercise of mindfulness, right 
effort, and 
> guarding the senses guided by intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma. 
They seem 
> to follow this path based on the assumption that it is really all 
that is 
> needed, and/or that formal meditation may, for one reason or 
another, either 
> be too hard or likely to be improperly executed. This is not a 
wildly 
> unreasonable approach, but is one that I don't agree with and that I 
think, 
> as you do, is at variance with what the Buddha taught. But if this 
(limited) 
> practice is carried out faithfully, consistently, and devotedly, I 
think it 
> can take one very far, further, in fact, than a more traditional 
practice 
> that is only done sporadically or halfheartedly. So any worthwhile 
Buddhist 
> practice is exactly that - worthwhile buddhist practice. 
>        Again, I agree with what you write in this post, but I 
thought it 
> might be worthwhile to say a little more in a countervailing 
fashion.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          

 
4159 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:42am
Subject: Re: Self / Not self

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> 
> More questions for you.  It would be very helpful to me to
> see further (nit-picking) details.

Wow, Kom! Stop making me sweat like this! :) :) :)

> > There is no difference between anatta and paticca
> > samuppada at core.
> > Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a
> > slightly different
> > angle.
> 
> I assume the second statement here explains the first.  I
> have some understandings that are at odd with what you are
> saying, so I hope you may be able to explain it.  I
> understand there are some differences between realities that
> are part of paticca samuppada and realities with anatta as
> their characteristics.
> 1) Paticasamupada includes all the kandhas, but doesn't
> include nibbana.  Anatta includes all realities, including
> nibanna.

Same-same.

> 2) Paticasamupada explains the process/causality of
> realities (only) leading to rebirth at this moment /
> patisandhi.  Anatta is a characteristic of all realities.

Same-same, though I'm using the most elementary definition of PS. See 
below.

> 3) Paticasamupada doesn't include the realities (processes)
> leading to nibanna.  It doesn't describe Satipatthana, nor
> the intellectual insights that lead to satipatthana.  Anatta
> includes everything.

Same-same. Except I do not understand what you mean "anatta includes 
everything" in this context. Yes, in terms of dhammas, obviously. Not 
sure how you mean otherwise, though. Can you please clarify?

> Details, please!

And details you shall have. To the best of my very (VERY) limited 
ability.

I was speaking of paticca samuppada, in this context, solely in terms 
of dependence (its simplest definition), forgetting for a moment the 
definition that includes the nidanas, which is broader in scope.

In this sense all sankharas are characterized by this fact of 
dependence. Is there any "non-produced" sankhara you can point to? To 
say that would be to state an absurdity, because if something is non-
produced it must be permanent, eternal, atta (it couldn't even be 
sankhara of this wree true!). So this clearly will not do. It is due 
to this dependence that anatta must apply for all sankharas.

> > Anatta denotes this reality from
> > perspective of lack of fixed,
> > substantial essence.
> 
> Since Nibanna neither rises or falls.  Do you see it as
> being fixed, being substantial?   How do you explain to a
> person (like me) how anatta is a characteristic of nibanna?

How could the asankhara possibly arise or cease? 

> > Paticca samuppada, same
> > reality from the
> > perspective of dependence. Two lenses or angles,
> > one reality. One
> > imples the other as well,
> 
> Since (my understanding) the realities related to the two
> (paticasamuddha and anatta) completely match, I still don't
> see this.

It does in the case of PS referring to the fact that sankhara dhammas 
all depend on causes.

> > anatta implies
> > dependence;
> 
> Since nibanna is not a conditioned reality, how doess
> anatta, a characterisitc of nibbana, imply dependence?

Anatta must imply dependence in the case of sankharas, but as 
always, "anatta" is never more than a mere label denoting a specific 
fact about a dhamma, either sankhara or asankhara (is this an example 
if vijjamana pannati? Can anyone clarify this for me?). 

In the case of sankharas, because they depend, they must be anatta, 
because anatta denotes lack of fixed entitness, core, or substantial 
existence, and these facts are all implied by PS due to dependence. 
Because to say they are atta entails the absurd consequence 
(prasanga) of saying sankhara dhammas are atta due to their being 
unproduced, eternal, self. This is the logical entailment of the 
miccha-ditthi that clings to the view that sankharas are eternal or 
permanent.

Some analogies I've seen in the Tipitaka include the milk-curd 
analogy (also, incidentally, used by Arya Nagarjuna in the 
Mulamadhyamakakarika, the "root" text of the Madhyamika school I 
study in). Curd is certainly not milk, and milk is not curd, but 
there is a point where you DESIGNATE the difference between the two 
in dependence on the change in process that transforms the "base of 
imputation" from "milk" to "curd," based on its physical 
characteristics. 

Anatta here can ALSO be understood as the fact that milk and curd are 
different in function, meaning that the bases applied to milk and 
curd apply to the same process-continuum, though at different points 
in this same continuum. Each moment of this process-continuum is 
conditioned by (but not identical to or "separate from") its previous 
conditions. The reality of "milk" cannot be found in the "entitness" 
of milk, for example, nor the "entitness" of curd either, because 
both lack entity. So these labels are mere designations for a set 
of "physical bases" in the process of change.

I have found some of Arya Nagarjuna's meditations on this SUPERB, 
such as:

Neither from itself nor from another,
Nor from both,
Nor without a cause,
Does anything, whatever, anywhere arise

These types of analyses (and there are many, many more in thie vein) 
leave very few handholds for the type of mind that likes seizing on 
sankharas as atta!

> > dependence
> > implies anatta;  anicca implies dependence and
> > anatta; anicca implies
> > dukkha. Many many ways of looking at this problem!
> 
> Question similar to the one above...  It would be helpful to
> me if you go into more details of how these imply one
> another.

See above anatta + PS. Anicca entails the fact of dukkha, due to the 
fact there is clinging to formations as atta, and the process of 
anicca itself produces unpleasant vipaka due to clinging to these 
formations as "self." There is not anything in the tilakkhana that 
can be separated out in terms of sankhara dhammas. They all MUST hang 
perfectly together and imply one another when understanding of 
realities is non-mistaken. Anatta by itself applies only to nibbana, 
and why is nibbana anatta? How could one say nibbana has atta? That 
is absurd! This would be to say it possesses "entitiness" or "true 
reality" which it does not.

Kom, please know I'm using a slightly different "language" here, as 
I'm more accustomed to the Prasangika logic style that uses Prasanga 
(lit. "consequence") to denote "absurd consequences" of miccha-ditthi 
by noting what those views entail, when their implications are fully 
elaborated. This is what I am most fluent in though I am working very 
hard to adjust it to make sense from the perspective of the 
Tipitaka's presentation.

 
4160 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] "Discouraging" (Howard)

 
  Dear Dan,
I think if you looked carefully at Ninas writing what you would
see that she encourages all types of kusala according to the
conditions of the listener. 
You quote this from the Buddha "
 "Meditate, 
> Ananda, and do not delay or you will regret it later." (MN
> 152). How 
> to meditate? Satipatthana sutta and anapanasati  sutta give
> some good 
> suggestions, and meditation on illimitables and the kasinas
> and other 
> suggestions are mentioned frequently. 

There are two types of meditation explained here. One takes the
forty types of samatha. The other is vipassana and has the
khandas, ayatanas and dhatus as object. Nina has explained both
types but it is true that she emphasises the latter. You seem to
object to this. I did a quick search and found some quotes from
mahasi teachers as you have indicated that mahasi and goenka
methods are the true teachings of the Buddha.

. A senior mahasi teacher Ven u kundala writes on buddha net
about the last sentence of the buddha before his parinibbana .
>>"Appamadena sampadetha"- strive with earnestness.
The venerable says that this means "do not forget, practice with
earnestness. The ordinary unforgetting is when the yogi
practices dana, sila and samattha bhavana which will lead toward
human wealth, celestial wealth and Brahmas wealth. But the real
intention is for us not to forget the satipatthana
Vipassana""...>>
endquote. 
I think Nina explains not only satipatthana but also other types
of kusala. However, in accordance with the tipitaka she
recognises that devloping insight into nama and
rupa(satipatthana) is most important. 

Here is another quote from a teacher who has been influenced by
mahasi. His name is venerable Gunaratana and he wrote a book
that is said to be a buddhist bestseller (so I just read on the
internet) Mindfulness in Plain English
>>>>>He writes "One of the most difficult things to learn is
that mindfulness is not dependent on any emotional or mental
state. We have certain images of meditation. Meditation is
something done in quiet caves by tranquil people who move
slowly. Those are training conditions. They are set up to foster
concentration and to learn the skill of mindfulness. Once you
have learned that skill, however, you can dispense with the
training restrictions, and you should. You don't need to move at
a snail's pace to be mindful. You don't even need to be calm.
You can be mindful while solving problems in intensive calculus.
You can be mindful in the middle of a football scrimmage. You
can even be mindful in the midst of a raging fury. Mental and
physical activities are no bar to mindfulness. If you find your
mind extremely active, then simply observe the nature and degree
of that activity. It is just a part of the passing show
within.""endquote
If you looked hard at ninas writing you might see not so much
difference. Except she would might say from the beginning there
can be awareness of nama and rupa - even without moving slowly.
I am not saying nina is teaching a variation of mahasi method;
this is just to point out that what she is saying is not so out
of step with what your teachers have said. 

Of course  awareness can arise when sitting and should be
cultivated whenever we are sitting - in fact it would be bizarre
if someone decided that because awareness can arise anytime they
should not sit quietly and contemplate dhammas. Feel guilty
about it. Or someone else leaves their secluded hut in the
forest because they feel that the real work is done while in a
busy job. No these are ideal places for awareness- at least for
some people- but place and position are secondary to the more
important factor of right understanding: effort and
determination should be lifelong. It is so important that it
should be cultivated even in the most strenous circumstances.
This is what Nina points to. 

Nina does suggest that awareness can only arise if the right
conditions, especially right understanding are present. Is that
going against the Dhamma? 
You seem to be saying that if someone could do intensive formal
meditation for many hours a day that this is a faster route.
`Maybe it is. Why are you not then sitting in meditation 18
hours a day right now? Why aren't you living in a meditaion
center? Why waste valuable meditation time writing on the
internet. I think we agree that the path to Nibbana takes
priority over anything else in life.


One day we might be unable to take a sitting posture - who
knows.  If I believe that I should feel clear headed before sati
can arise then what about if I am struck with alzheimers later
in life or have a stroke. What about if I am in an accident and
have my leg ripped off - that seems to be  a useful time for
awreness to arise that sees rupa as parmattha dhamma, pain as
simply vedana.  I just cut my finger in the kitchen tonight - so
natural to consider those moments with a degree of detachment
conditioned by satipatthana. And also good to see how much
attachment is still there. It would be sad if I pretended to
myself that I am advanced in Dhamma just because a tiny amount
of awareness arises.
I know I still choose situations for awareness. The hard times
in life seem to bring up reserves and easily condition awareness
but the pleasant times are so easy to get lost and forget.  That
is one of the reasons that meeting someone like Acharn Sujin is
helpful. She says this is not right effort and that one must
also endure the pleasant- study those feelings just as much and
see them as simply paramattha dhamma.

You  note that the visuddhimagga also gives the kasinas as
meditation objects. How much success have you had with the
kasina meditations? 

You perhaps also didn't see my post to eric yesterday where I
noted that even the most dry sukkhvipassaka also engages in
samatha because considering the Dhamma - a preliminary to
satipatthana- brings with it piti and other factors of jhana. it
is classified as one of the 40 objects -
Dhammanasati(spelling?).

robert


--- Dan wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> When I read the Suttas, I feel "satisfied and delight in the
> Blessed 
> One's words" and well "instructed, urged, roused, and
> encouraged." 
> When I read the interview with Nina, I feel dissatisfied and
> do not 
> delight in the words. I certainly don't feel urged, roused,
> and 
> encouraged--more like sedated and discouraged. Why is that?
> I'm not 
> exactly sure, but it seems that what she says is so much
> different 
> from what the Buddha said. Many people have noted that Nina
> and some 
> of the dsg seem to discourage formal practice of meditation,
> but I 
> have never seen anything in the Tipitaka or commentaries to
> even hint 
> at such discouragement. > 
> Buddha said: "One CAN abandon the unwholesome, O Monks! …One
> CAN 
> cultivate the wholesome, O Monks!" (AN 2:19). And a large part
> of his 
> teaching is devoted to practical advice on how to do so:
> "Meditate, 
> Ananda, and do not delay or you will regret it later." (MN
> 152). How 
> to meditate? Satipatthana sutta and anapanasati  sutta give
> some good 
> suggestions, and meditation on illimitables and the kasinas
> and other 
> suggestions are mentioned frequently. It requires a good deal
> of 
> effort, as suggested by the commentary to the Sutta Nipata
> (Simile of 
> the serpent) indicates. It discusses how a snake sheds its
> skin as a 
> simile for how a monk walks on the path: "It is similar with a
> monk. 
> The 'law of his own species' is sila. Standing firm in his own
> law of 
> virtue, and seeing the misery involved, he becomes disgusted
> with the 
> 'old worn-out skin' of the 'here and beyond,' comprising (such
> pairs 
> of opposites) as his own and others' personalized existence,
> tec., 
> which are productive of suffering. Thus he becomes disgusted
> and, 
> seeking the support of a noble friend, he summons is utmost
> strength 
> by way of the path factor, right effort. Dividing day and
> night into 
> six periods, during daytime, while walking up and down or
> sitting, he 
> purifies the mind from obstructive things; doing so also in
> the first 
> and the last watch of the night, he lies down for rest only in
> the 
> night's middle watch. Thus he strives and struggles. Just as
> the 
> serpent bends its tail, so he bends his legs to a crosslegged
> posture. 
> As the serpent exhales forcefully, so the mond musters all his
> 
> unremittinig strength. As the serpent expands its hood, so the
> monk 
> works for an expansion of his insight. And just as the serpent
> sheds 
> its old skin, so the monk abandons the here anre the beyond,
> and being 
> now freed of the burden, he goes forth to the Nibbana-element
> that is 
> without a residue of the groups of existence." 
> 
> One of the things that sets Buddhism apart is the abundance of
> good 
> instructions for how proceed.
> 
> 
> Dan
> 





 
4161 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 3/20/01 2:04:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Mike and Alex,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: m. nease 
> >
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > Alex asked me to post a question I'd asked her
> > off-line.  It's out of the context of the discussion
> > we were having, so I hope it makes sense:
> >
> > > >Still, it does seem to me that an arising citta
> > > >would
> > > >already have an object, so how could it have the
> > > >subsiding citta as an object too (or was it
> > > >vice-versa)?  You would know this a lot better than
> > > >I...
> >
> > The question had to do with whether an arising citta
> > 'sees' the previous, subsiding citta, or something to
> > that effect.  I asked it because I thought that I
> > recalled reading that a citta only takes one object.
> 
> Can I ask the question this way?  How can a citta "see" a
> reality that no longer exists?
> 
> kom
> 
===============================
Hah! Looks like you and I asked the very same question!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
4162 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Hi, Dan -

In a message dated 3/20/01 2:52:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Dan writes:


> I'm sure I 
> don't have a lot of time before my fever climbs back up (it's been 
> running up and down from about 102 to 105.6 at its highest), so I 
> can't write a lot.
> 
==========================
       Whew! That's awfully high. I seem to have missed what's this all 
about. I assume you're under a doctor's care?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4163 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 0:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Hi, Kom (and Erik) -

In a message dated 3/20/01 3:12:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Erik,
> 
> More questions for you.  It would be very helpful to me to
> see further (nit-picking) details.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik 
> 
> > > For this reason, anatta is the flipside of dependent
> > > origination
> > > (paticca samuppada), and is a characteristic of
> > all things,
> > > nibbana
> > > as well as all sankharas (composed things). It is also
> > > ultimately no
> > > different from dependent origination if you really
> > > understand it.
> >
> 
> > There is no difference between anatta and paticca
> > samuppada at core.
> > Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a
> > slightly different
> > angle.
> 
> I assume the second statement here explains the first.  I
> have some understandings that are at odd with what you are
> saying, so I hope you may be able to explain it.  I
> understand there are some differences between realities that
> are part of paticca samuppada and realities with anatta as
> their characteristics.
> 1) Paticasamupada includes all the kandhas, but doesn't
> include nibbana.  Anatta includes all realities, including
> nibanna.
> 2) Paticasamupada explains the process/causality of
> realities (only) leading to rebirth at this moment /
> patisandhi.  Anatta is a characteristic of all realities.
> 3) Paticasamupada doesn't include the realities (processes)
> leading to nibanna.  It doesn't describe Satipatthana, nor
> the intellectual insights that lead to satipatthana.  Anatta
> includes everything.
> 
> Details, please!
> 
> > Anatta denotes this reality from
> > perspective of lack of fixed,
> > substantial essence.
> 
> Since Nibanna neither rises or falls.  Do you see it as
> being fixed, being substantial?   How do you explain to a
> person (like me) how anatta is a characteristic of nibanna?
> 
> > Paticca samuppada, same
> > reality from the
> > perspective of dependence. Two lenses or angles,
> > one reality. One
> > imples the other as well,
> 
> Since (my understanding) the realities related to the two
> (paticasamuddha and anatta) completely match, I still don't
> see this.
> 
> > anatta implies
> > dependence;
> 
> Since nibanna is not a conditioned reality, how doess
> anatta, a characterisitc of nibbana, imply dependence?
> 
> > dependence
> > implies anatta;  anicca implies dependence and
> > anatta; anicca implies
> > dukkha. Many many ways of looking at this problem!
> 
> Question similar to the one above...  It would be helpful to
> me if you go into more details of how these imply one
> another.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> kom
> 
====================================
       I think you raise an interesting question here, one which touches on 
what I believe is a terminological difference between Theravada and Mahayana 
(and Vajrayana), namely the meaning of sunyata/shunyata.
       In Theravada, 'sunyata' pertains to all dhammas being empty of self or 
anything related to self. It refers to the impersonality of all dhammas, both 
conditioned and unconditioned. The dependently arisen status of conditioned 
dhammas points to their impersonality, their sunyata. The lack of any 
conditions at all in nibbana whereby it might be grasped at as 'me' or 'mine' 
makes it the supreme emptiness in that same sense. Thus, in Theravada, 
'sunyata' and 'anatta' basically carry the same meaning. 
       However, my understanding is that in Mahayana, 'shunyata' has the same 
meaning as 'insubstantiality', 'essencelessness', and 'lack of own-being'. 
Clearly both Mahayana and Theravada see all conditioned dhammas as having 
this characteristic, but with Theravada not using the word 'sunyata' to refer 
to it. However, I don't think that Theravada sees nibbana as being 
insubstantial, without essence, and without "own-being"; in fact, I believe 
it refers to nibbana as santo (real). The Mahayana position that nirvana is 
shunyata, empty of essence and own-being has, indeed, puzzled me. I have 
never seen an explanation of why it is to be understood to be empty in that 
sense. Lacking conditions doesn't do it. That just makes it radically 
different from all conditioned dhammas. It is the conditioned dhammas that 
are fleeting and dependently arisen, making them both impersonal and 
insubstantial ("like foam" as the Buddha said). But I don't know why 
Mahayanists see nirvana as empty in the sense of being insubstantial and 
without independent reality.
       Actually, a possible answer to this last matter has just occurred to 
me. Perhaps the Mahayanists view the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, to be 
empty of independent reality because there is a relation of interdependence 
between the conditioned dhammas, on the one hand, and the unconditioned 
dhamma, on the other, this mutual dependence making each of them empty of 
self-nature! Could that be it, Erik?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4164 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 6:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Dear Erik,

I have still more questions for you.  You don't need to sweat, since I
(maybe somebody else) won't be grading you!  Of course, the paramatha
dhammas that we call sweat are conditioned dhamma...

--- Erik wrote:
> > > There is no difference between anatta and paticca
> > > samuppada at core.
> > > Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a
> > > slightly different
> > > angle.
> > 
> > I assume the second statement here explains the first.  I
> > have some understandings that are at odd with what you are
> > saying, so I hope you may be able to explain it.  I
> > understand there are some differences between realities that
> > are part of paticca samuppada and realities with anatta as
> > their characteristics.
> > 1) Paticasamupada includes all the kandhas, but doesn't
> > include nibbana.  Anatta includes all realities, including
> > nibanna.
> 
> Same-same.

I don't understand your explanation here.  Does same-same mean you
disagree?  Does it mean you agree?  Does it mean my attempt at the
explanation doesn't add any more to the earlier conversation?

> > 3) Paticasamupada doesn't include the realities (processes)
> > leading to nibanna.  It doesn't describe Satipatthana, nor
> > the intellectual insights that lead to satipatthana.  Anatta
> > includes everything.
> 
> Same-same. Except I do not understand what you mean "anatta includes 
> everything" in this context. Yes, in terms of dhammas, obviously. Not
> sure how you mean otherwise, though. Can you please clarify?

What I mean is anatta is a common characteristic to all realities,
including Paticasamupada, and nibanna.

> I was speaking of paticca samuppada, in this context, solely in terms
> of dependence (its simplest definition), forgetting for a moment the 
> definition that includes the nidanas, which is broader in scope.
> 
> In this sense all sankharas are characterized by this fact of 
> dependence. Is there any "non-produced" sankhara you can point to? To
> 
> say that would be to state an absurdity, because if something is non-
> produced it must be permanent, eternal, atta (it couldn't even be 
> sankhara of this wree true!). So this clearly will not do. It is due 
> to this dependence that anatta must apply for all sankharas.

Understand this part...
 
> > > Anatta denotes this reality from
> > > perspective of lack of fixed,
> > > substantial essence.
> > 
> > Since Nibanna neither rises or falls.  Do you see it as
> > being fixed, being substantial?   How do you explain to a
> > person (like me) how anatta is a characteristic of nibanna?
> 
> How could the asankhara possibly arise or cease? 

Well, my interpretation of what you have said earlier is that all
sankharas are anatta because they are conditioned:  they depend on
other dhammas to rise.  Since Nibanna doesn't rise and doesn't fall and
is not conditioned, how do you explain the anattaness in nibana?  We
know the Budda explained that Nibanna is asankhara.  How do YOU explain
the anattaness in nibana?

> It does in the case of PS referring to the fact that sankhara dhammas
> all depend on causes.

I can certainly agree to the statement that anatta does explain
Paticasamupada.  However, I wouldn' agree that Paticasamupada explains
anatta.  Anatta can be used to explained everything, whereas
Patciasamupada can be used only to explain conditioned realities, and
only those that lead to rebirth.  Paticasamupada, by definition, covers
limited set of Paramatha dhamma, where anatta has no limit.  

I am satisfied with the explanation that you gave to the stament "There
is no difference between anatta and paticca samuppada at core". 
However, I would not put it in that manner without detailed
explanation.  Clearly (to me), Anatta does not equate Paticaa
saumppada.

> In the case of sankharas, because they depend, they must be anatta, 
> because anatta denotes lack of fixed entitness, core, or substantial 
> existence, and these facts are all implied by PS due to dependence. 
> Because to say they are atta entails the absurd consequence 
> (prasanga) of saying sankhara dhammas are atta due to their being 
> unproduced, eternal, self. This is the logical entailment of the 
> miccha-ditthi that clings to the view that sankharas are eternal or 
> permanent.
> 
> Some analogies I've seen in the Tipitaka include the milk-curd 
> analogy (also, incidentally, used by Arya Nagarjuna in the 
> Mulamadhyamakakarika, the "root" text of the Madhyamika school I 
> study in). Curd is certainly not milk, and milk is not curd, but 
> there is a point where you DESIGNATE the difference between the two 
> in dependence on the change in process that transforms the "base of 
> imputation" from "milk" to "curd," based on its physical 
> characteristics. 
> 
> Anatta here can ALSO be understood as the fact that milk and curd are
> 
> different in function, meaning that the bases applied to milk and 
> curd apply to the same process-continuum, though at different points 
> in this same continuum. Each moment of this process-continuum is 
> conditioned by (but not identical to or "separate from") its previous
> 
> conditions. The reality of "milk" cannot be found in the "entitness" 
> of milk, for example, nor the "entitness" of curd either, because 
> both lack entity. So these labels are mere designations for a set 
> of "physical bases" in the process of change.
> 
> I have found some of Arya Nagarjuna's meditations on this SUPERB, 
> such as:
> 
> Neither from itself nor from another,
> Nor from both,
> Nor without a cause,
> Does anything, whatever, anywhere arise
> 
> These types of analyses (and there are many, many more in thie vein) 
> leave very few handholds for the type of mind that likes seizing on 
> sankharas as atta!

Anumodhana.  A good analogy, indeed.

> See above anatta + PS. Anicca entails the fact of dukkha, due to the 
> fact there is clinging to formations as atta, and the process of 
> anicca itself produces unpleasant vipaka due to clinging to these 

This raises another question.  Are the process of clinging and the
resultant unhappiness vipaka?  

> formations as "self." There is not anything in the tilakkhana that 
> can be separated out in terms of sankhara dhammas. They all MUST hang
> 
> perfectly together and imply one another when understanding of 
> realities is non-mistaken. Anatta by itself applies only to nibbana, 
> and why is nibbana anatta? How could one say nibbana has atta? That 
> is absurd! This would be to say it possesses "entitiness" or "true 
> reality" which it does not.

I am still disatisfied with your explanation of the anattaness of
nibana.  (I don't have one myself, that's why I am insisting).  Nibanna
is just a dhatu.  This implies that there is no entity posessing it nor
entity in it.  Would you explain when you implied (if you did not,
forgive my clumsiness) Nibanna is not a true reality?

> Kom, please know I'm using a slightly different "language" here, as 
> I'm more accustomed to the Prasangika logic style that uses Prasanga 
> (lit. "consequence") to denote "absurd consequences" of miccha-ditthi

Erik, you seem to be doing pretty well at detailed explanation. 
Regardless of the styles of logic, if we arrive at the understanding of
dhamma as it truly is, then the styles won't matter.   

My original questioning of your statement was provoked by the
generality of the statement "There is no difference between anatta and
paticca samuppada at core."  It appears to me that there are obvious
differences, and we can interpret/misinterpret the statement in many
different ways.  Buddha dhamma is subtle and hard to see: the more
precise (accurate would be nice too, but I guess only an Ariya can tell
you accurately) we are, the better chance we get at understading the
right things.  There should be no nit left unpicked after we are done!

I am very happy that you have joined the list, and count myself as
fortunate to be among the presence of people eagar to learned the true
meanings of buddha dhamma.   I have no anger toward the differences in
opinion, I am only eagar to learn what you think are the teachings of
Buddha.

With the differences in opinion of how the path can be developed, it
reminds me to rejoice for the panna and karuna of the Buddha.  This
dhamma is subtle indeed; even people reading from the same source are
interpreting it differently.

Anumoddhana.

kom

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 9:42 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self


--- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> 
> More questions for you.  It would be very helpful to me to
> see further (nit-picking) details.

Wow, Kom! Stop making me sweat like this! :) :) :)

> > There is no difference between anatta and paticca
> > samuppada at core.
> > Both refer to the same reality slicing it from a
> > slightly different
> > angle.
> 
> I assume the second statement here explains the first.  I
> have some understandings that are at odd with what you are
> saying, so I hope you may be able to explain it.  I
> understand there are some differences between realities that
> are part of paticca samuppada and realities with anatta as
> their characteristics.
> 1) Paticasamupada includes all the kandhas, but doesn't
> include nibbana.  Anatta includes all realities, including
> nibanna.

Same-same.

> 2) Paticasamupada explains the process/causality of
> realities (only) leading to rebirth at this moment /
> patisandhi.  Anatta is a characteristic of all realities.

Same-same, though I'm using the most elementary definition of PS. See 
below.

> 3) Paticasamupada doesn't include the realities (processes)
> leading to nibanna.  It doesn't describe Satipatthana, nor
> the intellectual insights that lead to satipatthana.  Anatta
> includes everything.

Same-same. Except I do not understand what you mean "anatta includes 
everything" in this context. Yes, in terms of dhammas, obviously. Not 
sure how you mean otherwise, though. Can you please clarify?

> Details, please!

And details you shall have. To the best of my very (VERY) limited 
ability.

I was speaking of paticca samuppada, in this context, solely in terms 
of dependence (its simplest definition), forgetting for a moment the 
definition that includes the nidanas, which is broader in scope.

In this sense all sankharas are characterized by this fact of 
dependence. Is there any "non-produced" sankhara you can point to? To 
say that would be to state an absurdity, because if something is non-
produced it must be permanent, eternal, atta (it couldn't even be 
sankhara of this wree true!). So this clearly will not do. It is due 
to this dependence that anatta must apply for all sankharas.

> > Anatta denotes this reality from
> > perspective of lack of fixed,
> > substantial essence.
> 
> Since Nibanna neither rises or falls.  Do you see it as
> being fixed, being substantial?   How do you explain to a
> person (like me) how anatta is a characteristic of nibanna?

How could the asankhara possibly arise or cease? 

> > Paticca samuppada, same
> > reality from the
> > perspective of dependence. Two lenses or angles,
> > one reality. One
> > imples the other as well,
> 
> Since (my understanding) the realities related to the two
> (paticasamuddha and anatta) completely match, I still don't
> see this.

It does in the case of PS referring to the fact that sankhara dhammas 
all depend on causes.

> > anatta implies
> > dependence;
> 
> Since nibanna is not a conditioned reality, how doess
> anatta, a characterisitc of nibbana, imply dependence?

Anatta must imply dependence in the case of sankharas, but as 
always, "anatta" is never more than a mere label denoting a specific 
fact about a dhamma, either sankhara or asankhara (is this an example 
if vijjamana pannati? Can anyone clarify this for me?). 

In the case of sankharas, because they depend, they must be anatta, 
because anatta denotes lack of fixed entitness, core, or substantial 
existence, and these facts are all implied by PS due to dependence. 
Because to say they are atta entails the absurd consequence 
(prasanga) of saying sankhara dhammas are atta due to their being 
unproduced, eternal, self. This is the logical entailment of the 
miccha-ditthi that clings to the view that sankharas are eternal or 
permanent.

Some analogies I've seen in the Tipitaka include the milk-curd 
analogy (also, incidentally, used by Arya Nagarjuna in the 
Mulamadhyamakakarika, the "root" text of the Madhyamika school I 
study in). Curd is certainly not milk, and milk is not curd, but 
there is a point where you DESIGNATE the difference between the two 
in dependence on the change in process that transforms the "base of 
imputation" from "milk" to "curd," based on its physical 
characteristics. 

Anatta here can ALSO be understood as the fact that milk and curd are 
different in function, meaning that the bases applied to milk and 
curd apply to the same process-continuum, though at different points 
in this same continuum. Each moment of this process-continuum is 
conditioned by (but not identical to or "separate from") its previous 
conditions. The reality of "milk" cannot be found in the "entitness" 
of milk, for example, nor the "entitness" of curd either, because 
both lack entity. So these labels are mere designations for a set 
of "physical bases" in the process of change.

I have found some of Arya Nagarjuna's meditations on this SUPERB, 
such as:

Neither from itself nor from another,
Nor from both,
Nor without a cause,
Does anything, whatever, anywhere arise

These types of analyses (and there are many, many more in thie vein) 
leave very few handholds for the type of mind that likes seizing on 
sankharas as atta!

> > dependence
> > implies anatta;  anicca implies dependence and
> > anatta; anicca implies
> > dukkha. Many many ways of looking at this problem!
> 
> Question similar to the one above...  It would be helpful to
> me if you go into more details of how these imply one
> another.

See above anatta + PS. Anicca entails the fact of dukkha, due to the 
fact there is clinging to formations as atta, and the process of 
anicca itself produces unpleasant vipaka due to clinging to these 
formations as "self." There is not anything in the tilakkhana that 
can be separated out in terms of sankhara dhammas. They all MUST hang 
perfectly together and imply one another when understanding of 
realities is non-mistaken. Anatta by itself applies only to nibbana, 
and why is nibbana anatta? How could one say nibbana has atta? That 
is absurd! This would be to say it possesses "entitiness" or "true 
reality" which it does not.

Kom, please know I'm using a slightly different "language" here, as 
I'm more accustomed to the Prasangika logic style that uses Prasanga 
(lit. "consequence") to denote "absurd consequences" of miccha-ditthi 
by noting what those views entail, when their implications are fully 
elaborated. This is what I am most fluent in though I am working very 
hard to adjust it to make sense from the perspective of the 
Tipitaka's presentation.



 
4165 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 6:37am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dear Howard,

You wrote:
>Whew! That's awfully high. I seem to have missed what's this 
all 
> about. I assume you're under a doctor's care?

I've missed what it's all about too. Maybe it's akusala vipaka for 
writing such sharp posts recently! (or not...) 

Unfortunately, my wife is not a doctor yet, but she is working on her 
PhD in statistics. I don't think she'll finish in time to help me 
though.

Dan

 
4166 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 6:44am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dear des,
You wrote:
> The fever is just there.
> It's not your fever.

I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly cheerful. 
Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I just take up the 
lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat. When the 
thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion starts arising more 
frequently and intensely, but only briefly before sleep. These unusual 
and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca, and by tomorrow or 
the next day, they are bound to subside for some time.

Thanks for the words of wisdom.

Dan

 
4167 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 6:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Hope you feel well soon.
Don't just have faith. Keep a well balanced faith and wisdom.

I am glad you were not offended by my first hasty comment.

with metta,
des

>From: Dan
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:44:35 -0000
>
>Dear des,
>You wrote:
> > The fever is just there.
> > It's not your fever.
>
>I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly cheerful.
>Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I just take up the
>lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat. When the
>thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion starts arising more
>frequently and intensely, but only briefly before sleep. These unusual
>and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca, and by tomorrow or
>the next day, they are bound to subside for some time.
>
>Thanks for the words of wisdom.
>
>Dan
>


 
4168 From: Num 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 2:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Hi Herman,

Just like to respond to some of your writing, esp. the biology part :)

<<<Yes, there is no lasting self. But some phenomena last longer than others.
And though the component particles may arise and decay billions of times
each second, they do not arise haphazardly, randomly, they arise according
to conditions. >>

I agree with this but then you said.

<<And the conditions do not change randomly or haphazardly. The
only phenomena we know about are the ones that reoccur, according to a
structure (the rest pass to quickly).>>

Not all causes and conditions arise randomly, I think some of them are. They 
depend on a lot of paccaya

<<<I am glad you mention physics. Perhaps I can slip biology in here. Our
bodies, though they are impermanent, are structured according to the genes.
The particles that make up the genes arise and decay rapidly, yet the
structure of the genes remains fairly much the same for the lifetime of the
body.

And this structure of the genes determines the structure of the body, the
component particles of which arise and decay billions of times each second.
Yet there is a structure to this body , a sense of self in biological terms.
The body recognises and accepts itself and rejects living matter with
genetic matter foreign to it.
>>>

As you mentioned, genomic DNA is always changing, I mean it is dynamic rather 
than static.  When we plant an apple seed, we get an apple tree. Gene does 
not totally determine phenotype, genes always interact with environment. Gene 
changes when the environment changes. I think it in the Tipitaka calls this 
kind of stuff, Peecha-kamma. I have to look for a reference.

Let see what do you think,

<<  We might ask: Is the flame now burning in the  pressure  lantern the same 
flame  which once burned  in the match?    The answer can be  either yes or 
no.   Similarly,  the Buddha said there are two extremes.   One extreme is to 
say that when  a man  dies that same person is bornagain,  and the other 
extreme is to say that at death that person is forever annihilated.   The 
Buddhist position is between these two.

In Milinda-panha, Ven. Nakasena asked Milinda that is the candle flame now 
the same as the same as the flame in previous watch. Or are adult Milinda the 
same person as juvenile Milinda?

and from dhammastudy.com, Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part IX


The Venerable Ananda said, "Behold, Venerable Udayi, a man desiring the wood 
core, seeking the wood core, takes a sharp axe into the forest.  He finds a 
great banana plant, straight and free from twines.  He cuts the base of the 
trunk, cuts the top and then peels off the layers but could not find even the 
sapwood, so how could he find the core?  So behold, Venerable
 Udayi, neither can a bhikkhu examine and search to find the self or anything 
of the self in the six phassayatana.  Seeing thus, he would not cling to 
anything in the world.  Not clinging, he would not struggle.  Since he does 
not struggle, he would reach nibbana, know clearly that rebirths are over, 
the chaste life is led, the task is done, other functions towards being thus 
do not exist.

The last part where the Venerable Ananda said, "Behold, Venerable Udayi, a 
man desiring the wood core, seeking the wood core, takes a sharp axe into the 
forest.  He finds a great banana plant, straight and free from twines.  Since 
it is a banana plant, it is still a position, for it is collective, a 
composition.

"He cuts the base of the trunk, cuts the top and then peels off the layers" 
means he must disperse what he used to take as a whole, a conglomerate, an 
object, the self, a position. "But could not find even the sapwood, so how 
could he find the core?"  Thus he is able to abandon mistaking it as a banana 
tree.  Likewise, a whole ox with the skin unstripped, parts uncut, is still 
seen as an ox lying there.  As long as rupa are assembled together, they are 
remembered as a position, a stance or another and still seen as an object, a 
person.  Only when one knows the characteristics of realities as they truly 
are, could not one mistake realities as entities or persons, like the peeling 
of layers when no sapwood can be found, much less the core of the tree. 
"Behold, Venerable Udayi, neither can a bhikkhu examine and search to find 
the self or anything of the self in the six phassayatana."  In the six 
phassayatana there are no positions.  The eye is one ayatana.  Rupayatana is 
only something that appears.  As long as one still sees it as a person 
sitting, it cannot be said that it is not the self.  It is only thinking that 
it is not the self.  It is not the true realization that it is not the self 
when panna must know that this instant of seeing sees only what appears 
through the eyes.  After that there is thinking or remembering the features 
of what appears and then the recognition of what appears.  Even then it's 
only the nama-dhamma that knows and remembers, not an entity, a person or the 
self.  Through the ears that are hearing sound, there are no memory remaining 
from the eyes that they were seeing people, conversing or talking because at 
that instant sati is being mindful of the characteristics of the reality that 
hears, which is only an element that knows sound.  After which the citta 
would think of words or thoughts according to the high and low sound they 
hear and panna would know that the instant of knowing words is the 
nama-dhamma of the kind that knows words.>>>


So a banana tree is a banana tree but there is no self or entity.

I think you brought up a good point.  I have to go for a class.  I don't 
think I answer your question but I used to ask myself the same question 
before. I think it's hard to talk about modern science from buddhism 
perspective at times.


Let me share with you my sympathy rgd your nephew.


Num







 
4169 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:08am
Subject: Re: Self / Not self

 
  --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Of course, the paramatha
> dhammas that we call sweat are conditioned dhamma...

If only the folks who do my laundry understood that!

> > Same-same.
> 
> I don't understand your explanation here.  Does same-same mean you
> disagree?  Does it mean you agree?

To get really technical, the same as what I understood your intended 
meaning to be.

> What I mean is anatta is a common characteristic to all realities,
> including Paticasamupada, and nibanna.

Yes, I agree.

> > How could the asankhara possibly arise or cease? 
> 
> Well, my interpretation of what you have said earlier is that all
> sankharas are anatta because they are conditioned:  they depend on
> other dhammas to rise.  Since Nibanna doesn't rise and doesn't fall 
and
> is not conditioned, how do you explain the anattaness in nibana?  We
> know the Budda explained that Nibanna is asankhara.  How do YOU 
explain
> the anattaness in nibana?

I won't even try, because I'll make a hopeless mess of it, as it is 
presently beyond my ability to articulate something so subtle (one 
reason I'm studying Abhidhamma if you must know). So I'll defer to 
Arya Nagarjuna instead. And it fully reflects my understanding on 
this:

Unrelinquished, unattained,
Unannihilated, not permanent,
Unarise, unceased:
That is how Nirvana is described.

Some other illustrative quotes include:

-If nirvana were existent, it would be composed
-If nirvana were existent, how could it be non-dependent?

There is a whole set of stanzas in the Mulamadhymakakarika on Nirvana 
along these lines I find useful. Bottom line, all of 
these "descriptions" are mere tactics to knock the legs out from 
under the mind that clings of wrong views of how things exist. I have 
found these to be very powerful meditations in and of themsleves, but 
would never mistake them for a representative "description" of 
Nibbana. In that case I'd be truly "incurable!" :)

> I can certainly agree to the statement that anatta does explain
> Paticasamupada.  However, I wouldn' agree that Paticasamupada 
explains
> anatta.  Anatta can be used to explained everything, whereas
> Patciasamupada can be used only to explain conditioned realities, 
and
> only those that lead to rebirth.  Paticasamupada, by definition, 
covers
> limited set of Paramatha dhamma, where anatta has no limit.  

Definitions! I thought I mentioned that I am using the most 
elementary definition of paticca samuppada as principle, that means 
only "do this, get that." In other words, basic cause-and-effect, and 
no more. This is one way I've been taught it, and I know it is also 
represented in the Tipitaka this way, as it is in terms 
of "idappaccayata" (can get the Pali for you here too if you want):

When there is this, that is
With the arising of this, that arises
When this is not, neither is that
With the cessation of this, that ceases

> I am satisfied with the explanation that you gave to the 
stament "There
> is no difference between anatta and paticca samuppada at core". 
> However, I would not put it in that manner without detailed
> explanation.  Clearly (to me), Anatta does not equate Paticaa
> saumppada.

I hope the above definition clarifies how I was using the term.

> > See above anatta + PS. Anicca entails the fact of dukkha, due to 
the 
> > fact there is clinging to formations as atta, and the process of 
> > anicca itself produces unpleasant vipaka due to clinging to these 
> 
> This raises another question.  Are the process of clinging and the
> resultant unhappiness vipaka? 

Tough question for this Abhidhamma beginner, but I'll give it a try. 
Based on my present understanding, I can't see how it's otherwise. 
I'm just drawing inferences from what I already know, namely, that 
rupa of the body is a result of kamma-vipaka. Therefore any processes 
of clinging would be arising in dependence on this kamma-vipaka. Am I 
missing something here, or does this match your understanding? 
 
> I am still disatisfied with your explanation of the anattaness of
> nibana.  (I don't have one myself, that's why I am insisting).

Fair enough. Insist away, but I'm not going even going to try to use 
my own words on this one. Yet, anyway. If there's a day I'm convinced 
such an explanation will get past the bullshit filters around here, 
you'll be among the first to hear it.

>  Nibanna
> is just a dhatu.  This implies that there is no entity posessing it 
nor
> entity in it.  Would you explain when you implied (if you did not,
> forgive my clumsiness) Nibanna is not a true reality?

Never said it isn't a "true" reality, because it can 
be "experienced." In this sense it's "true enough" for me. I actually 
believe this has been a major point of contention between the 
Abhidharma systems and certainly some Madhyamika schools. I am 
entirely convinced this is based on an essential misrepresentation  
(on purpose for teaching purposes only, as part of the pedagogical 
structure used to refute commonly held wrong substantialist views) of 
HOW paramattha dhammas are interpreted in the Tipitaka. The way I 
understand the Tipitaka's interpretation, paramattha dhammas are 
interpreted as "irreducible units of experience that can be talked 
about meaningfully in terms of practice." Nowhere have I gotten the 
impression, as I mistakenly had before I really looked at the Suttas 
on this, that there's an implication these are in any way atta, which 
is the charge leveled agaist the Abhidhammists in my school (and many 
others, just so's you're aware).

> Erik, you seem to be doing pretty well at detailed explanation. 
> Regardless of the styles of logic, if we arrive at the 
understanding of
> dhamma as it truly is, then the styles won't matter.   

Absolutely agreed on this.

> My original questioning of your statement was provoked by the
> generality of the statement "There is no difference between anatta 
and
> paticca samuppada at core."  It appears to me that there are obvious
> differences, and we can interpret/misinterpret the statement in many
> different ways.

Fair enough and just so you know I've been over this debate many  
times now, so I have a little more experience with it and a better 
chance of explaining my understanding. Basically, the way this is 
understood is that anatta and paticca samuppada (the cause-effect 
definition!) are ways of saying X about reality. In the case of 
anatta, that is that all things lack core, essence, substance, true 
nature, entity, etc. etc. PS is a way of describing the same reality 
in terms of the fact that everything depends. The two are not 
describing the same property of reality; they are, however, 
describing the same reality, in the same way if you're describing an 
orange, you can state a number of facts about it. Solidity. 
Roundness. None of these labels is the orange, but they are 
characteristics of an orange, in the same way anatta and PS and 
anicca and dukkha are characteristics, or lakkhana, of all sankhara 
dhammas. Regadrless of whether you accept this or not, as Je 
Tsongkhapa (founder of the Geluk school of Tibetan Buddhism--the 
lineage of the Dalai Lama) notes:

You've yet to realize the thought of the Able
As long as two ideas seem to you disparate:
The appearance of things-infallible interdependence;
And emptiness-beyond taking any position.

At some point, they no longer alternate, come together;
Just seeing that interdependence never fails
Brings realization that destroys how you hold to objects,
And then your analysis with view is complete

I'm using these quotes to show I'm speaking using the understanding 
of an entire system, not simply using my own ad-hoc language, and 
this is where I'm coming from. Also, Arya Nagarjuna notes the 
inseparability of PS and anatta, and it is for the above reasons.

> Buddha dhamma is subtle and hard to see: the more
> precise (accurate would be nice too, but I guess only an Ariya can 
tell
> you accurately) we are, the better chance we get at understading the
> right things.  There should be no nit left unpicked after we are 
done!

Agree completely with you in everything you've just said, and I 
invite you to pick the nits off me anyday. Or something like that.

> I am very happy that you have joined the list, and count myself as
> fortunate to be among the presence of people eagar to learned the 
true
> meanings of buddha dhamma. 

I am similarly happy to have the privilege of your time and 
knowledge, as well as the time of others here who I have so very much 
to learn from.

> I have no anger toward the differences in
> opinion, I am only eagar to learn what you think are the teachings 
of
> Buddha.

Excellent. As I am to learn how to interpret these things as they're 
meant to be understood by the Tathagatas. This is where the rubber 
meets the road, in my opinion. Anumoddhana to your studies and 
insight!

 
4170 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:50am
Subject: Re: Self / Not self

 
  Howard,

--- Howard wrote:

>        I think you raise an interesting question here, one which 
touches on 
> what I believe is a terminological difference between Theravada and 
Mahayana 
> (and Vajrayana), namely the meaning of sunyata/shunyata.

Oh yeah? We'll see about that! :)

>        In Theravada, 'sunyata' pertains to all dhammas being empty 
of self or 
> anything related to self. It refers to the impersonality of all 
dhammas, both 
> conditioned and unconditioned. The dependently arisen status of 
conditioned 
> dhammas points to their impersonality, their sunyata. The lack of 
any 
> conditions at all in nibbana whereby it might be grasped at as 'me' 
or 'mine' 
> makes it the supreme emptiness in that same sense. Thus, in 
Theravada, 
> 'sunyata' and 'anatta' basically carry the same meaning.

You just gave me a lecture on my own school's definitions there. Are 
you sure you're not a ringer? :)

>        However, my understanding is that in Mahayana, 'shunyata' 
has the same 
> meaning as 'insubstantiality', 'essencelessness', and 'lack of own-
being'. 

Can you show me the diffference between what "own-being" (svabhava; 
rang-tong in Tibetan) means and emptiness of "self" as taught about 
anatta? 

Before doing so, though, I believe it is very helpful to work with 
the same definitions of "self." I'd be happy to give you a bunch of 
definitions for this "self" that should hopefully make it very clear 
that anatta and shunyata refer to the same thing across the board, in 
the same way paticca samuppada and anatta refer to the same thing 
(cf. my letter to Kom). If you want, I'll do.

Other than that, "self" is broader than simply "self" as relates the 
khandas; "self" also relates to all sankharas, and specifically, when 
it's examined, refers to "independent" or "true" 
existence. "Core." "Substance." (cf. Vis.) This "self" is the 
impossible "object of negation" to be abandoned. It's an 
impossibility, like a "horn of a rabbit" or a "hair of a tortise." 
It's a nonexistent in the first place, yet the mind thinks in terms 
of "self" all the time. 

> Clearly both Mahayana and Theravada see all conditioned dhammas as 
having 
> this characteristic, but with Theravada not using the 
word 'sunyata' to refer 
> to it. However, I don't think that Theravada sees nibbana as being 
> insubstantial, without essence, and without "own-being"; in fact, I 
believe 
> it refers to nibbana as santo (real).

If the Tipitaka aserts nibbana has "own-being" (svabhava, Tib. rang-
tong), then I'll retract everything nice I've ever said about the 
Theravada and pack my bags right now! (Sorry about that little 
outburst there. I think you may infer I disagree just a little bit 
with that idea. :) )

I think the term "real" is helpful to unpack, since you brought it 
up. What about Nibbana is "real?" It can be experienced by lokuttara 
cittas as an arammana. Yet, does this mean "it" must necessarily 
possess svabhava? So, how do you define "real" here? I think this 
would help clarify some. Actually, a lot.

> The Mahayana position that nirvana is 
> shunyata, empty of essence and own-being has, indeed, puzzled me. 

Does the phrase "sabba dhamma antta" puzzle you? (I mean, it should 
puzzle all of us in a very kusala way, I think!).

> I have 
> never seen an explanation of why it is to be understood to be empty 
in that 
> sense. Lacking conditions doesn't do it. That just makes it 
radically 
> different from all conditioned dhammas. It is the conditioned 
dhammas that 
> are fleeting and dependently arisen, making them both impersonal 
and 
> insubstantial ("like foam" as the Buddha said). But I don't know 
why 
> Mahayanists see nirvana as empty in the sense of being 
insubstantial and 
> without independent reality.

Can you explain how Nibbana might possess svabhava then? I am curious 
how you might make such an argument.

>        Actually, a possible answer to this last matter has just 
occurred to 
> me. Perhaps the Mahayanists view the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, 
to be 
> empty of independent reality because there is a relation of 
interdependence 
> between the conditioned dhammas, on the one hand, and the 
unconditioned 
> dhamma, on the other, this mutual dependence making each of them 
empty of 
> self-nature! Could that be it, Erik?

Um hum. Just as I suspected. A ringer. :)

As always, Howard, I truly appreciate your insights, and anumodhana 
to your studies too!

 
4171 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Hi, Erik -

In a message dated 3/20/01 7:58:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erik writes:


> Howard,
> 
> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> >        I think you raise an interesting question here, one which 
> touches on 
> > what I believe is a terminological difference between Theravada and 
> Mahayana 
> > (and Vajrayana), namely the meaning of sunyata/shunyata.
> 
> Oh yeah? We'll see about that! :)
> 
> >        In Theravada, 'sunyata' pertains to all dhammas being empty 
> of self or 
> > anything related to self. It refers to the impersonality of all 
> dhammas, both 
> > conditioned and unconditioned. The dependently arisen status of 
> conditioned 
> > dhammas points to their impersonality, their sunyata. The lack of 
> any 
> > conditions at all in nibbana whereby it might be grasped at as 'me' 
> or 'mine' 
> > makes it the supreme emptiness in that same sense. Thus, in 
> Theravada, 
> > 'sunyata' and 'anatta' basically carry the same meaning.
> 
> You just gave me a lecture on my own school's definitions there. Are 
> you sure you're not a ringer? :)
> 
> >        However, my understanding is that in Mahayana, 'shunyata' 
> has the same 
> > meaning as 'insubstantiality', 'essencelessness', and 'lack of own-
> being'. 
> 
> Can you show me the diffference between what "own-being" (svabhava; 
> rang-tong in Tibetan) means and emptiness of "self" as taught about 
> anatta? 
> 
> Before doing so, though, I believe it is very helpful to work with 
> the same definitions of "self." I'd be happy to give you a bunch of 
> definitions for this "self" that should hopefully make it very clear 
> that anatta and shunyata refer to the same thing across the board, in 
> the same way paticca samuppada and anatta refer to the same thing 
> (cf. my letter to Kom). If you want, I'll do.
> 
> Other than that, "self" is broader than simply "self" as relates the 
> khandas; "self" also relates to all sankharas, and specifically, when 
> it's examined, refers to "independent" or "true" 
> existence. "Core." "Substance." (cf. Vis.) This "self" is the 
> impossible "object of negation" to be abandoned. It's an 
> impossibility, like a "horn of a rabbit" or a "hair of a tortise." 
> It's a nonexistent in the first place, yet the mind thinks in terms 
> of "self" all the time. 
> 
> > Clearly both Mahayana and Theravada see all conditioned dhammas as 
> having 
> > this characteristic, but with Theravada not using the 
> word 'sunyata' to refer 
> > to it. However, I don't think that Theravada sees nibbana as being 
> > insubstantial, without essence, and without "own-being"; in fact, I 
> believe 
> > it refers to nibbana as santo (real).
> 
> If the Tipitaka aserts nibbana has "own-being" (svabhava, Tib. rang-
> tong), then I'll retract everything nice I've ever said about the 
> Theravada and pack my bags right now! (Sorry about that little 
> outburst there. I think you may infer I disagree just a little bit 
> with that idea. :) )
> 
> I think the term "real" is helpful to unpack, since you brought it 
> up. What about Nibbana is "real?" It can be experienced by lokuttara 
> cittas as an arammana. Yet, does this mean "it" must necessarily 
> possess svabhava? So, how do you define "real" here? I think this 
> would help clarify some. Actually, a lot.
> 
> > The Mahayana position that nirvana is 
> > shunyata, empty of essence and own-being has, indeed, puzzled me. 
> 
> Does the phrase "sabba dhamma antta" puzzle you? (I mean, it should 
> puzzle all of us in a very kusala way, I think!).
> 
> > I have 
> > never seen an explanation of why it is to be understood to be empty 
> in that 
> > sense. Lacking conditions doesn't do it. That just makes it 
> radically 
> > different from all conditioned dhammas. It is the conditioned 
> dhammas that 
> > are fleeting and dependently arisen, making them both impersonal 
> and 
> > insubstantial ("like foam" as the Buddha said). But I don't know 
> why 
> > Mahayanists see nirvana as empty in the sense of being 
> insubstantial and 
> > without independent reality.
> 
> Can you explain how Nibbana might possess svabhava then? I am curious 
> how you might make such an argument.
> 
> >        Actually, a possible answer to this last matter has just 
> occurred to 
> > me. Perhaps the Mahayanists view the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, 
> to be 
> > empty of independent reality because there is a relation of 
> interdependence 
> > between the conditioned dhammas, on the one hand, and the 
> unconditioned 
> > dhamma, on the other, this mutual dependence making each of them 
> empty of 
> > self-nature! Could that be it, Erik?
> 
> Um hum. Just as I suspected. A ringer. :)
> 
> As always, Howard, I truly appreciate your insights, and anumodhana 
> to your studies too! 
> 
=====================================
       My point - and I might be right, and I might be wrong - is that the 
notion of 'anatta' (or 'sunya') in Theravada is a restriction of that in 
Mahayana. 
       When a Mahayanist says that all dharmas are empty he/she means that 
they have no separate identity, but only are "things-in-relation". BECAUSE OF 
THIS, in particular, all dharmas are impersonal; that is, they are not, 
individually, or in combination, a self in the sense of a (truly existent) 
person nor are they owned or controlled by any self or related to any self. 
       However, when a Theravadin says that all dhammas are empty, he/she 
means only that they are impersonal, that they are, individually or in 
combination, neither a self nor related to a self. Theravadins do, indeed, 
accept that all conditioned dhammas are insubstantial (and they use that to 
*point* to their impersonality), but I don't think they they use 'sunya' to 
describe that insubstantiality, but only to describe their impersonality. I 
believe that for Theravadins, sunya = anatta = impersonal, whereas for 
Mahayanists, shunya = anatma = nihsvabhava (asvabhava?). I'm not sure whether 
or not the Theravadin understanding is that nibbana is lacking in 
self-nature; I'm only certain that the understanding is that it is 
impersonal. Do you see my point? Now, perhaps I'm wrong on the Theravadin 
usage, and I welcome correction.
       Now, with regard to the unconditioned dhamma being empty (in the 
Mahayana sense) due to the mutual dependence between it and the conditioned 
dhammas, this does make sense to me. The alternative would either be a 
position somewhat like that of advaita vedanta, with nibbana being inherently 
existent (an "absolute") and conditioned dhammas being inherently nonexistent 
(and only appearing to exist), a position that I think is incoherent, or the 
diametrical opposite position, which I think few Buddhists could except. The 
position that conditioned dhammas and the unconditioned dhamma are all empty 
(in the Mahayanist sense) is one which allows *both* to exist in the 
middle-way, conventional sense.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4172 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Yes, a citta can actually "see" another citta.
This is probably the highest level of explanation, and can happen only to 
people who are enlightened. Since we have a group of very near enlightened 
people, I thought I would go ahead and share with you.

Remeber a rupa lasts 17 times longer than a citta.
When a observing citta [e.g. 1 second] looks at the observed citta [e.g. 17 
seconds], then the observed citta ends up looking back at the observing 
citta for 16 seconds more.

Wishing you all the shortest way to Nirvana. Practice, practice and practice 
more.........

With metta,
des


>From: "Amara" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing 
>Consciousness
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:36:39 -0000
>
>--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > Alex asked me to post a question I'd asked her
> > off-line.  It's out of the context of the discussion
> > we were having, so I hope it makes sense:
> >
> > > >Still, it does seem to me that an arising citta
> > > >would
> > > >already have an object, so how could it have the
> > > >subsiding citta as an object too (or was it
> > > >vice-versa)?  You would know this a lot better than
> > > >I...
> >
> > The question had to do with whether an arising citta
> > 'sees' the previous, subsiding citta, or something to
> > that effect.  I asked it because I thought that I
> > recalled reading that a citta only takes one object.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > mike
>
>
>Dear Alex and Mike,
>
>From my understanding, both the citta and its object arise from
>conditions, therefore when the conditions are right, for example when
>there is sati arising with it there could be study of the previous
>citta which would make the characteristics of the citta that had just
>fallen away the object of the study.  For example anger that had just
>fallen away that instant could become the object of kusala sati
>arising to study its crude and violent nature, at which instant the
>anger is replaced by a moment of peaceful bhavana.  But for that tiny
>instant only, then anger might or might not arise again according to
>conditions.  When the conditions are right, however, it is surprising
>how a tiny instant of awareness can attenuate our clinging to anger,
>sometimes stopping it entirely!
>
>Hope this helps, dear friends,
>
>Amara
>


 
4173 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 3:46pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Dear Erik,


> -----Original Message-----
> I won't even try, because I'll make a hopeless
> mess of it, as it is
> presently beyond my ability to articulate
> something so subtle (one
> reason I'm studying Abhidhamma if you must know).
> So I'll defer to
> Arya Nagarjuna instead. And it fully reflects my
> understanding on
> this:

I would actually be happier if you describe this in your
words than quoting a text not coming from the Tipitaka or
commentaries.  There are values in reading from the same
source: we can converge faster (maybe) on the understandings
of Buddha dhamma.  I will further nit-pick the text you
quoted below, but I think the value of this will be minimal.

> Unrelinquished, unattained,
> Unannihilated, not permanent,

Again, if Nibanna doesn't rise and doesn't fall, how do you
explain that it is impermanent?

> Unarise, unceased:
> That is how Nirvana is described.
>
> Some other illustrative quotes include:
>
> -If nirvana were existent, it would be composed
> -If nirvana were existent, how could it be non-dependent?

Paramatha dhamma are dhammas with characteristics that
citta/cetasikas can experience.  How do you define
existence?

> There is a whole set of stanzas in the
> Mulamadhymakakarika on Nirvana

I am unfamiliar with this work.  Is it coming from the
Tipitaka?

> > > fact there is clinging to formations as atta,
> and the process of
> > > anicca itself produces unpleasant vipaka due
> to clinging to these
> > This raises another question.  Are the process
> of clinging and the
> > resultant unhappiness vipaka?
>
> Tough question for this Abhidhamma beginner, but
> I'll give it a try.

I think a few people might be able to help here.  Clinging
(lobha) is not vipakka.  Clinging (lobha) without the
appropriate cetana (volition) doesn't cause future
unpleasant vipakka.  The mental unhappiness resulting from
not being able to obtain what one clings to, parting from
what one clings to, etc., is domanassa vedana (unhappy
feeling) arising with dosa (anger), again not vipaka, again
without the appropriate cetana doesn't cause future
unpleasant vipakka.

> know, namely, that
> rupa of the body is a result of kamma-vipaka.

The rupa of the "body" in fact comprises of different types
of rupas that have the followings as samuddhana (cause,
foundation):
1) Kamma
2) Citta (that explains how we move)
3) Ahara (that explains why we get fatter if we eat too
much)
4) Utu (that explains why dead bodies still remain even when
Kamma, Citta, and Ahara are not supporting it anymore.

> Therefore any processes
> of clinging would be arising in dependence on
> this kamma-vipaka.

We can cling to many things besides our bodies.  We can
cling to what we see (say a car) which is clinging to
"Vipaka" directly caused by Kamma.  We can cling to the
concept of our car which is not a direct result of Kamma.
In fact, we don't even have to have a body to cling to
something.  In Arupa-brahma planes, there are no bodies, but
yet, the arupa-brahma can still cling.

> Never said it isn't a "true" reality, because it can
> be "experienced." In this sense it's "true
> enough" for me. I actually

Paramattha dhamma are realities whose characteristics the
citta can directly experience.  Regardless of whether or not
we call it a "true" realities, the citta can experience
paramattha dhamma.  In this sense, I think we agree.

> believe this has been a major point of contention
> between the
> Abhidharma systems and certainly some Madhyamika
> schools. I am
> entirely convinced this is based on an essential
> misrepresentation
> (on purpose for teaching purposes only, as part
> of the pedagogical
> structure used to refute commonly held wrong
> substantialist views) of
> HOW paramattha dhammas are interpreted in the
> Tipitaka. The way I

Sorry I couldn't contribute here.  I am not familiar with
the disagreements.

> understand the Tipitaka's interpretation,
> paramattha dhammas are
> interpreted as "irreducible units of experience
> that can be talked
> about meaningfully in terms of practice." Nowhere
> have I gotten the
> impression, as I mistakenly had before I really
> looked at the Suttas
> on this, that there's an implication these are in
> any way atta, which
> is the charge leveled agaist the Abhidhammists in
> my school (and many
> others, just so's you're aware).

I don't think there is anybody in this group who would argue
(I am almost certain!  despite all the disagreements) that
there is an atta in anything.  I believe (mistakenly?) that
the "Abhidhammists" are charged because the language that is
used, i.e, that paramatha dhamma are "ultimate" realities,
and these realities exist and have  their own functions
beyond manifesting the characteristics [epistomological
arguments (thanks, Howard!  I needed to look that up when
you mentioned it the first time)] .

> In the case of
> anatta, that is that all things lack core,
> essence, substance, true
> nature, entity, etc. etc.

Do you regard the characteristic of anger, for example, as
essence, substance, true nature?  Why not?  The citta can
certainly directly experience the anger, while the citta
cannot directly experience a car.  What does it mean when
you say that all things lack core, essense, substance, true
nature?  We may be able to explain this for Sankharas by the
way of conditioned arising.  How do we explain Nibanna?  I
am running in circle here...

> Also, Arya
> Nagarjuna notes the
> inseparability of PS and anatta, and it is for
> the above reasons.

I think we have exhausted this particular line of discussion
(difference/non-difference of PS and anatta) without coming
to a common conclusion...

kom

 
4174 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 4:21pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Yes, a citta can actually "see" another citta.
> This is probably the highest level of explanation, and can happen 
only to 
> people who are enlightened. Since we have a group of very near 
enlightened 
> people, I thought I would go ahead and share with you.
> 
> Remeber a rupa lasts 17 times longer than a citta.
> When a observing citta [e.g. 1 second] looks at the observed citta 
[e.g. 17 
> seconds], then the observed citta ends up looking back at the 
observing 
> citta for 16 seconds more.
> 
> Wishing you all the shortest way to Nirvana. Practice, practice and 
practice 
> more.........


Dear Des,

Sounds super, can you give us some references?  Preferably from the 
Tipitaka or Commentaries?

Personally I have always thought of it as Howard explained, from the 
memory angle, but am open to other views.

Amara

 
4175 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  > I've missed what it's all about too. Maybe it's akusala vipaka for 
> writing such sharp posts recently! (or not...) 
> 
> Unfortunately, my wife is not a doctor yet, but she is working on 
her 
> PhD in statistics. I don't think she'll finish in time to help me 
> though.


Dear Dan,

How are you feeling, any better?  What did the doctor say, why such 
high fever?  (I don't mean your future PhD wife, who must be so 
worried too!)  Do take care of yourself,

All the best,

Amara

 
4176 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick  
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concentration acompanying insight
Dear Robert,
You said when the insight are insighted is consider as having jhana and its factors yet is close to access jhana.You must check out in detail the sankhara for each citta in book like visuddhimagga.The cittavithi of jhana object javana is the same like earth,earth etc but the insight (khanika) cittavithi will be among the 8 kinds of kusala javana which don't have the same jhana factors.In dhammadayada sutta tika mention the upacara have to put behind during that insight-this prove that insight is not having a samadhi level same as access.That access have the same jhana sankhara with the appana.It is only those  people read  in Visuddhimagga --without jhana there will not be nibbana.This means we need jhana factor for any yogi.
Looking at yuganaddha sutta where ananda said every one attain nibbana by one or among these fours  ,if we put four satipattha object on each four of them,it will be kaya (inferior samathayanika)for the first  -emerge from one jhana.Vedana(better samathayanika) for the emerge one jhana after  going to higher jhana.Citta(inferior sukka)going by insight follow by lokiya jhana while the better sukkha vipasaka eill be the one who have jhana and insight then thinking that his already arahant etc.I have no canon support because the com.only said the first is samatha and the secone is sukha.That last of it prove that sukhavipasaka(dhamaupasana) did practice jhana but some like sakhadeva and visakha really don't have jhana practising but the access jhana object will occur with buddhaausati etc. 
I think we still can find the lost tika like petavatthu,suttanipata tika theragatha tika etc.It can be done by monks with devine eye or pray to deva Because it is in some old temple in thailand-chieng mai etc.
From Teng Kee

> Dear teng,
> My comments are between yours:
> --- teng kee ong  wrote:
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Dear Robert,
> > I will do it in pts book but not in here because it have too
> > many things to mention,
> 
> I will be looking forward to it. If you could send me your notes
> beforehand this would be much appreciated.
> 
> not just like mahasi method of anyone
> > can be a sukkhavipassaka and his method is mainly kaya
> > anupassana(for samathayanika inferior type only)etc.
> 
> Yes, Although the mahasi people do mention other doors they seem
> to emphasise mainly on kaya or the four elements. 
> 
> I have to
> > mention that we can't read the lost anguttara tika (not the
> > one by sariputta )because it was lost.That book might have
> > some helpful comments.
> 
> OK. Sad news indeed- the ancient tikas are very useful.
> 
> Why 2 samathayanika (tanha type-see
> > satipatthana sutta english translation online in
> > www.accesstoinsight.org )have to emerge from jhana ?Maybe is
> > because they are lacking of samadhi and having too much
> > nivarana.
> 
> Isn't it because in jhana because of the fixed concentration 
> awreness of rise and fall is practically unattainable. it is
> immediately after leaving jhana that insight can understand the
> ephemeral nature of the jhana factors?
> 
> Maybe sukkhavipassaka are having not enough insight?I
> > have to read that comment in anguttara purana tika because i
> > can only find it in netti and petakopadesa which is not
> > helpful enough.Maybe the reverse is true -that samathayanika 
> > is lacking of insight etc(see yuganaddha sutta in anugattara
> > nikaya book 2.Petakopadesa and netti even said samathayanika
> > will have dukkhapatipada but sukkhavipassaka will have sukkha
> > patipada.I can 't agree on it because anguttara nikaya com
> > said emerge from jhana will have sukkhapatipada.
> 
> This is very interesting. In the netti it indicates that
> neyya(slow ones) need to be  taught many  details and go via
> insight rather than samatha. This seems to show that the
> sukkhavipassaka is for the less developed among us (neyya).I can
> find exact references if this is useful.
> 
> 
> > The  only sure word i can say is that mahasi sayadaw is surely
> > wrong.Doing insight (without coming out from jhana)with 8
> > kusala javana(khanika samadhi )will not have jhana factors and
> > the samadhi bala(power).But emerge from jhana for
> > samathayanika will have jhana factors because it will be
> > khanika samadhi with the jhana javana.sukhavipassaka will have
> > the samadhi like this(lokiya jhana)after almost completing his
> > insight.
> 
> OK. You may be  right here.  I would maintain that during
> initial stages of insight, (i.e. preceeding the first
> vipassana-nana (nama-rupaparicchedda -nana) and onwards up until
> the later stages of vipassana, but before actual path moments)
> that only khanika samadhi is needed. During actual moments of
> vipassana this samadhi, although momentary is very strong -
> close to upacara (access) but less than full jhana. Now in the
> moments just preceeding penetration of nibbana it may be that
> all the jhana factors are present and the power of samadhi is
> equivalent to that of jhana. Certainly, the moments when nibbana
> is insighted are considered as jhana, even for the
> sukkhavipassaka.
> Can you agree with this?
> 
> I think it would be useful to discuss this with people like Nina
> van gorkom or some of the pali experts at the foundation in
> Bangkok. They would have translators available for such a
> discussion.
> 
> 
> Robert
> 


 
4177 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:47pm
Subject: Fwd: Hello!

 
  Dear All

I am forwarding a message from our latest member,
Stephen, which was meant for the list.  

--- Stephen Roehrig  wrote: >
From: Stephen Roehrig 
> Subject: Hello!
> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:48:39 -0700
> 
> 
> Greeting to the Group;
> 
> My name is Stephen Roehrig.  My wife Diane and I
> have been studying and 
> practicing the Buddhas teachings since 1982 (and
> obviously beyond) We have 
> travelled to Thailand back in 1987 Sarah and
> Jonothan Abbott and Khun 
> Sujin.  Our teachers have also included Anagarika
> Dhamma Dinna, Achan 
> Sobin, Venerable Ananda Maitreya, Venerable
> Piyadassi, Sister Ayya Khema, 
> Venerable Punnaji, Venerable Bhante Gunaratana, &
> Venerable Sona.
> Most recently, Diane and I have sold our two
> businesses and are happily 
> adjusting to a less hectic lifestyle.  Immediately
> following our consulting 
> period, I participated in a 7 week Buddhist
> Pilgrimage throughout India and 
> Nepal.  I was given the name of Dhammabodhi by a
> senior Thai Monk during 
> this time.
> My practice follows the cultivation of mindfulness
> as taught by the Buddha. 
>  I have found different perspectives to be
> invaluable in investigating my 
> own nature. My hope is to learn from and to
> contribute to this groups 
> dialogue.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Stephen

Stephen, Sarah and I are delighted to be in touch with
you and Diane after a lapse of so many years.  Looking
forward to hearing some more from you on the list.

Jon




 
4178 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Hello!

 
  A doubly warm welcome to Stephen and Diane!!

Looking forward very much to your contributions,

Amara


> > Greeting to the Group;
> > 
> > My name is Stephen Roehrig.  My wife Diane and I
> > have been studying and 
> > practicing the Buddhas teachings since 1982 (and
> > obviously beyond) We have 
> > travelled to Thailand back in 1987 Sarah and
> > Jonothan Abbott and Khun 
> > Sujin.  Our teachers have also included Anagarika
> > Dhamma Dinna, Achan 
> > Sobin, Venerable Ananda Maitreya, Venerable
> > Piyadassi, Sister Ayya Khema, 
> > Venerable Punnaji, Venerable Bhante Gunaratana, &
> > Venerable Sona.
> > Most recently, Diane and I have sold our two
> > businesses and are happily 
> > adjusting to a less hectic lifestyle.  Immediately
> > following our consulting 
> > period, I participated in a 7 week Buddhist
> > Pilgrimage throughout India and 
> > Nepal.  I was given the name of Dhammabodhi by a
> > senior Thai Monk during 
> > this time.
> > My practice follows the cultivation of mindfulness
> > as taught by the Buddha. 
> >  I have found different perspectives to be
> > invaluable in investigating my 
> > own nature. My hope is to learn from and to
> > contribute to this groups 
> > dialogue.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > 
> > Stephen
> 
> Stephen, Sarah and I are delighted to be in touch with
> you and Diane after a lapse of so many years.  Looking
> forward to hearing some more from you on the list.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 

 
4179 From: wynn   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Human State

 
  Has anyone ever noticed the contradiction inherent in saying that, on the
one hand, the human state is the best state for achieving enlightenment, and
on the other, advocating celibate monasticism as the superior lifestyle?

If the human state was so precious, wouldn't having as many children as
possible be the most compassionate thing a good Buddhist could do, to
provide superior vehicles for more sentient beings? If everyone aspired to
celibate monasticism the human race would die out in one generation. Would
this end the possibility of enlightenment in this world system?




 
4181 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 10:10pm
Subject: Re: Human State

 
  --- wynn  wrote:
> Has anyone ever noticed the contradiction inherent in saying that, 
on the
> one hand, the human state is the best state for achieving 
enlightenment, and
> on the other, advocating celibate monasticism as the superior 
lifestyle?
> 
> If the human state was so precious, wouldn't having as many children 
as
> possible be the most compassionate thing a good Buddhist could do, 
to
> provide superior vehicles for more sentient beings? If everyone 
aspired to
> celibate monasticism the human race would die out in one generation. 
Would
> this end the possibility of enlightenment in this world system?


I wonder if this is worth discussing, seeing the percentage of 
Buddhists who are actually celibate these days, even among the 
'sankha' in several countries, and the teachings have been around for 
over 25 centuries, with world population constantly on the rise, even 
in Buddhist countries.

 
4182 From: Alex T 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:14pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> Personally I have always thought of it as Howard explained, from 
> the memory angle, but am open to other views.

Dear Amara and Howard,

   I don't think that we can observe a citta from memory, because 
it'll be our imagination.

With Appreciation,
Alex Tran

 
4183 From: Alex T 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:20pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Desmond Chiong"  
wrote:
> Yes, a citta can actually "see" another citta.
> This is probably the highest level of explanation, and can happen 
> only to people who are enlightened. 

   Dear Des,

   You have my total attention for this explanation.

> Since we have a group of very near enlightened 
> people, 

   Ha ha ha ... Good humor.  Thank you.

> I thought I would go ahead and share with you.

   Yes, please.

> Remeber a rupa lasts 17 times longer than a citta.
> When a observing citta [e.g. 1 second] looks at the observed citta 
[e.g. 17 
> seconds], then the observed citta ends up looking back at the 
observing 
> citta for 16 seconds more.

   Just say that we may observe the body, how about observing the 
feeling, the mind, and the consciousness?

With Metta,
Alex Tran

 
4184 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:30pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  >    I don't think that we can observe a citta from memory, because 
> it'll be our imagination.


Dear Alex,

Memory is a cetasika with very precise characteristics too, granted 
thoughts of memory is another citta entirely, but the characteristics 
of cetasikas such as anger is real, and so is memory.  So at different 
moments akusala citta can become object of study of sati through the 
mind dvara.  And at that moment, since the dosa also arises and falls 
away and although it usually arises again because the conditions are 
still there, sati could even condition other citta to arise instead, 
as opposed to not ever knowing the ugly characteristics of dosa.  
Memory (or sanna cetasika) arises with all citta, good or bad, 
therefore immediate memory of the characteristics of kilesa could give 
us knowledge of that reality as such, not only unpleasant and 
harmful but ipermanent nor the self either, adding to the panna of 
things as they really are.  

I think it is better to know than not, even without thinking of panna, 
don't you?

Amara

 
4185 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  The best reference lies in our fanthom long body.

With all the knowledge that he gained from listening directly from the 
Buddha, Ananda himself did not attain enlightenment, until he "let go" of 
what he knew, while he was changing his body position from sitting to the 
lying position.

The follower of "Chan" meditation Buddhism are half right when they say what 
buddha left us is the method of meditation to attain enlightenment.
The follower of the theravada are half right when they say what Buddha left 
us is the scripture, to attain enlightment.
A well balanced middle path is what the Buddha actually left us, to attain 
enlightment.
No one becomes a good doctor just from reading books.
No one becomes a good doctor just from seeing patients.
A well balanced middle way doctor that reads books and sees patients is the 
good and enlightened doctor.

Wishing you all a speedy well balanced approach to enlightenment.
with metta,
des


>From: "Amara" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing 
>Consciousness
>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:21:31 -0000
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, a citta can actually "see" another citta.
> > This is probably the highest level of explanation, and can happen
>only to
> > people who are enlightened. Since we have a group of very near
>enlightened
> > people, I thought I would go ahead and share with you.
> >
> > Remeber a rupa lasts 17 times longer than a citta.
> > When a observing citta [e.g. 1 second] looks at the observed citta
>[e.g. 17
> > seconds], then the observed citta ends up looking back at the
>observing
> > citta for 16 seconds more.
> >
> > Wishing you all the shortest way to Nirvana. Practice, practice and
>practice
> > more.........
>
>
>Dear Des,
>
>Sounds super, can you give us some references?  Preferably from the
>Tipitaka or Commentaries?
>
>Personally I have always thought of it as Howard explained, from the
>memory angle, but am open to other views.
>
>Amara
>


 
4186 From: Metta Jon 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:40pm
Subject: Re: Human State

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends:

IMHO, monastics (of various religions) have undertaken
celibacy not only because of self-discipline, or because they wanted 
to maintain a state of purity, or to overcome defilements (although 
these are all good reasons); but also because, as celibates, they 
are better able to focus on their practice and better able to serve
the community, if they are not hindered by the additional 
responsibilities of raising children, paying bills, taxes, etc. (as 
well as the obvious distractions of a marriage or other relationship
involving romantic and sexual attachment).

Monastics do not need to help produce more children, as the world
is already overpopulated as it is!  There is no shortage of human
beings--only a shortage of those who are seeking to liberate 
themselves from Samsara!  The human state is the best state for
realizing Enlightenment, but there is a Path that must be followed
by those humans...otherwise, we are not taking advantage of this
precious opportunity.  To quote the Blessed One from the Utthana
Sutta (Sutta Nipata): "Do not let the opportune moment pass."

As far as laity are concerned, i don't think we can expect total
celibacy, but some self-restraint is good...monogamy is good...
restricting sexual intimacy to being a physical expression of
love (as opposed to a means of self-gratification) is good.  There
have even been happily married couples (Buddhist & non-Buddhist) who
have managed to go for lengthy periods of time without sex.  I am not
condemning those who engage in sex; i am saying that while it has its
place in committed relationships, it is not always necessary.  But,
bottom line--if a person really does not wish to be celibate, they
don't have to be (unless they are monks/nuns--but then, they have the
option to leave the Sangha if they wish).

I apologize for the wordiness of my post, and thank you for your 
patience.

Sukhita hotha,

Metta Jon 




--- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- wynn  wrote:
> > Has anyone ever noticed the contradiction inherent in saying 
that, 
> on the
> > one hand, the human state is the best state for achieving 
> enlightenment, and
> > on the other, advocating celibate monasticism as the superior 
> lifestyle?
> > 
> > If the human state was so precious, wouldn't having as many 
children 
> as
> > possible be the most compassionate thing a good Buddhist could 
do, 
> to
> > provide superior vehicles for more sentient beings? If everyone 
> aspired to
> > celibate monasticism the human race would die out in one 
generation. 
> Would
> > this end the possibility of enlightenment in this world system?
> 
> 
> I wonder if this is worth discussing, seeing the percentage of 
> Buddhists who are actually celibate these days, even among the 
> 'sankha' in several countries, and the teachings have been around 
for 
> over 25 centuries, with world population constantly on the rise, 
even 
> in Buddhist countries.

 
4187 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:46pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  The middle path means the study of the present as opposed to the 
future and the past, not between the Tipitaka and some other 
tradition.  

> The best reference lies in our fanthom long body.
> 
> With all the knowledge that he gained from listening directly from 
the 
> Buddha, Ananda himself did not attain enlightenment, until he "let 
go" of 
> what he knew, while he was changing his body position from sitting 
to the 
> lying position.
> 
> The follower of "Chan" meditation Buddhism are half right when they 
say what 
> buddha left us is the method of meditation to attain enlightenment.
> The follower of the theravada are half right when they say what 
Buddha left 
> us is the scripture, to attain enlightment.
> A well balanced middle path is what the Buddha actually left us, to 
attain 
> enlightment.
> No one becomes a good doctor just from reading books.
> No one becomes a good doctor just from seeing patients.
> A well balanced middle way doctor that reads books and sees patients 
is the 
> good and enlightened doctor.
> 
> Wishing you all a speedy well balanced approach to enlightenment.
> with metta,
> des
> 
> 
> >From: "Amara" 
> >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: 
Observing 
> >Consciousness
> >Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:21:31 -0000
> >
> > > Yes, a citta can actually "see" another citta.
> > > This is probably the highest level of explanation, and can 
happen
> >only to
> > > people who are enlightened. Since we have a group of very near
> >enlightened
> > > people, I thought I would go ahead and share with you.
> > >
> > > Remeber a rupa lasts 17 times longer than a citta.
> > > When a observing citta [e.g. 1 second] looks at the observed 
citta
> >[e.g. 17
> > > seconds], then the observed citta ends up looking back at the
> >observing
> > > citta for 16 seconds more.
> > >
> > > Wishing you all the shortest way to Nirvana. Practice, practice 
and
> >practice
> > > more.........
> >
> >
> >Dear Des,
> >
> >Sounds super, can you give us some references?  Preferably from the
> >Tipitaka or Commentaries?
> >
> >Personally I have always thought of it as Howard explained, from 
the
> >memory angle, but am open to other views.
> >
> >Amara
> >

 
4188 From: Metta Jon 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 11:54pm
Subject: defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  A friend of mine e-mailed me a few weeks ago, about Venerable 
Dhammapiyo...it seems that he was asking for people to offer
their definitions of the word "Tathagata".

When i am translating texts, or reading them to others, i usually
substitute the word "Buddha" for "Tathagata", as i consider them
to be virtually interchangeable.  But, if asked to define the word,
that requires some thought.

Traditionally, it has been translated as "the One who has thus gone"
or "the One who has thus come".  I take the former to mean "one who
has gone beyone suffering" or "one who has gone to the Other Shore
(Nibbana/Nirvana)."  I take the latter tradition to mean "one who has
come to realization of Dhamma".

Some other translations i have seen are "Wayfarer" (which sounds odd
to me), and "the Perfect One" which would sound egotistical to many
ears....although one might define "Tathagatha" as "one who has thus
come to perfection" (ie, one who has practiced the "Perfections"--
the Paramis) and who has arrived at the culmination of that practice:
namely, Buddhahood).

Just a few thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

Sukhita hotha,

Metta Jon

 
4189 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  Thanks for your input.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Metta Jon>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:24 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"


> A friend of mine e-mailed me a few weeks ago, about Venerable
> Dhammapiyo...it seems that he was asking for people to offer
> their definitions of the word "Tathagata".
>
> When i am translating texts, or reading them to others, i usually
> substitute the word "Buddha" for "Tathagata", as i consider them
> to be virtually interchangeable.  But, if asked to define the word,
> that requires some thought.
>
> Traditionally, it has been translated as "the One who has thus gone"
> or "the One who has thus come".  I take the former to mean "one who
> has gone beyone suffering" or "one who has gone to the Other Shore
> (Nibbana/Nirvana)."  I take the latter tradition to mean "one who has
> come to realization of Dhamma".
>
> Some other translations i have seen are "Wayfarer" (which sounds odd
> to me), and "the Perfect One" which would sound egotistical to many
> ears....although one might define "Tathagatha" as "one who has thus
> come to perfection" (ie, one who has practiced the "Perfections"--
> the Paramis) and who has arrived at the culmination of that practice:
> namely, Buddhahood).
>
> Just a few thoughts, for whatever they're worth.
>
> Sukhita hotha,
>
> Metta Jon
>

 
4190 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:09am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> Memory is a cetasika with very precise characteristics too, granted 
> thoughts of memory is another citta entirely, but the 
characteristics 
> of cetasikas such as anger is real, and so is memory.  

Dear Amara,

   So memory (sanna) has its own object.  How can it observe another 
citta which had its object and already gone?

Thank you,
Alex

 
4191 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  >    So memory (sanna) has its own object.  How can it observe another 
> citta which had its object and already gone?

Dear Alex,

I think we can see it more clearly when we think of present 
situations, what we see as a moment of seeing is composed of 
innumerable instants of citta arising through not only the eyes and 
body sense, etc, but countless bhavanga as well, yet all is so fast 
there can also be sati arising with the seeing and thinking, 
accumulating panna even now.  The same with akusala citta that arises, 
they do not come singly, it wouldn't be noticeable, would it?  Why do 
some people get red or pale when anger arises?  If just one citta 
arises and falls away without conditioning others to arise too 
according to paccaya (causes).  Therefore what we can observe and 
study would usually be a train of citta as well and the when there 
happens to be conditions for sati to arise to accumulate panna, there 
could be instants of the peace of bhavana interposing in the midst of 
the train of anger and other citta such as seeing and hearing.  But 
let me check with someone more knowledgeable and get back to you about 
the details, and possible corrections!

Signing off for now, will get back to you,

Anumodana in your studies!

Amara

 
 
4192 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:33pm
Subject: On Second Thought (Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self)

 
  Hi, Erik and all -

In a message dated 3/20/01 11:36:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Howard 
writes:


> My point - and I might be right, and I might be wrong - is that the 
> notion of 'anatta' (or 'sunya') in Theravada is a restriction of that in 
> Mahayana. 
>        When a Mahayanist says that all dharmas are empty he/she means that 
> they have no separate identity, but only are "things-in-relation". BECAUSE 
> OF 
> THIS, in particular, all dharmas are impersonal; that is, they are not, 
> individually, or in combination, a self in the sense of a (truly existent) 
> person nor are they owned or controlled by any self or related to any self. 
>        However, when a Theravadin says that all dhammas are empty, he/she 
> 
=================================
       I decided to check out this idea of mine a bit more carefully by 
seeing what Buddhaghosa had to say about anatta and sunya. It now seems to me 
that although the primary Theravadin sense of 'anatta' / 'sunya' is 
'impersonal', it is, in fact, not restricted to that. I give a couple quotes 
of material from the Visudhimagga to bear this out, the first on sunya, and 
the second on anatta:

       (1) In XXI, 56, there is the following: Having discerned voidness in 
the six modes in this way <This is a previous reference>, he discerns it 
again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no core, is coreless, 
without core, as far as concerns (i) any core of permanence, or (ii) core of 
lastingness, or (iii) core of pleasure, or (iv)core of self, or as far as 
concerns (v) what is permanent, or (vi) what is lasting, or (vii) what is 
eternal, or (viii) what is not subject to change. <He continues to say the 
same things with regard to the other khandas, ayatanas, links in the chain of 
dependent origination etc.> Just as a reed has no core, is coreless, without 
core; just as a castor-oil plant, an udumbara (fig) tree, a setavaccha tree, 
a palibhaddaka tree, a lump of froth, a bubble on water, a mirage, a plantain 
trunk, a conjuring trick, has no core is coreless, without core, so too 
materiality etc.'

       (2) In XI, 104, there is the following, with the capitalization for 
emphasis being mine: ... They are states (dhamma) owing to bearing (dharana) 
for the length of the moment appropriate to them. They are impermanent in the 
sense of [liability to] destruction; they are painful in the sense of 
[causing] terror; THEY ARE NOT SELF IN THE SENSE OF HAVING NO CORE [OF 
PERMANENCE AND SO ON]. ...

       Thus it seems that the Theravadin sense of sunya/anatta, while having 
somewhat different emphasis from the Mahayana sense, with Theravada putting 
more emphasis on impersonality, does, indeed, span the same entire range of 
meaning. I stand corrected. Evidentally, both schools speak of a dhamma as 
being "anatta" or "not-self" in the sense of being coreless, the nonexistent 
"self" of a dhamma being an alleged core or unchanging, separate identity or 
own-being.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4193 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi, Alex -

In a message dated 3/21/01 10:17:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Alex T writes:


> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > Personally I have always thought of it as Howard explained, from 
> > the memory angle, but am open to other views.
> 
> Dear Amara and Howard,
> 
>    I don't think that we can observe a citta from memory, because 
> it'll be our imagination.
> 
> With Appreciation,
> Alex Tran
> 
=================================
       This was basically my point. Mindfulness of a citta must either be 
mindfulness of the memory of a citta (which is not the citta, itself) or just 
the accompaniment of the current citta by a simultaneous cetasika of 
heightened awareness. I see no third option.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
4194 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/21/01 10:33:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> >    I don't think that we can observe a citta from memory, because 
> > it'll be our imagination.
> 
> 
> Dear Alex,
> 
> Memory is a cetasika with very precise characteristics too, granted 
> thoughts of memory is another citta entirely, but the characteristics 
> of cetasikas such as anger is real, and so is memory.  So at different 
> moments akusala citta can become object of study of sati through the 
> mind dvara.  And at that moment, since the dosa also arises and falls 
> away and although it usually arises again because the conditions are 
> still there, sati could even condition other citta to arise instead, 
> as opposed to not ever knowing the ugly characteristics of dosa.  
> Memory (or sanna cetasika) arises with all citta, good or bad, 
> therefore immediate memory of the characteristics of kilesa could give 
> us knowledge of that reality as such, not only unpleasant and 
> harmful but ipermanent nor the self either, adding to the panna of 
> things as they really are.  
> 
> I think it is better to know than not, even without thinking of panna, 
> don't you?
> 
> Amara
> 
================================
       Another argument, albeit a bit of a stretch, that one could make in 
favor of the discerning of a citta actually being a clear memory of that 
citta is the base meaning of 'sati', namely 'remembering', 'recollecting', 
'not forgetting', or 'keeping in mind'. This argument may be nonsense, of 
course. It's just a thought.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4195 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:32am
Subject: On Second Thought (Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self)

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> THEY ARE NOT SELF IN THE SENSE OF HAVING NO CORE [OF 
> PERMANENCE AND SO ON]. ...
> 
>        Thus it seems that the Theravadin sense of sunya/anatta, 
while having 
> somewhat different emphasis from the Mahayana sense, with Theravada 
putting 
> more emphasis on impersonality, does, indeed, span the same entire 
range of 
> meaning. I stand corrected. Evidentally, both schools speak of a 
dhamma as 
> being "anatta" or "not-self" in the sense of being coreless, the 
nonexistent 
> "self" of a dhamma being an alleged core or unchanging, separate 
identity or 
> own-being.

That's what I've been trying, in my unskilled way, to communicate all 
along. Also, I just wanted to add as a response to your last post 
that the idea of "self" is very important to define. As you show from 
Buddhagosa's quote, it's broader than mere "personality" and includes 
things like "core," or "essence." 

Also, what I think is interesting is to consider where all these 
various descriptions are pointing. Is it possible to "triangulate" 
(to a limited degree) from, say, the aspects of reality of the 
tilakkhana, and use that as an aid to understanding the deeper 
character of what's being pointed at?

 
4196 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dan,

I hope you're well soon.  Still, better to be sick
with a little understanding than well with none (as
you know).

Santi, Bhaatu,

mike
 
--- Dan wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> Thanks for the thoughtful post! I always enjoy your
> insights. I don't 
> always agree, but I do always learn something.
> Thanks. I'm sure I 
> don't have a lot of time before my fever climbs back
> up (it's been 
> running up and down from about 102 to 105.6 at its
> highest), so I 
> can't write a lot.
> 
> First, in you quote about right view being the
> forerunner (MN 117), I 
> noticed you clipped off what Buddha said was the
> mundane right view, 
> most importantly that it is a belief in kamma/vipaka
> and that there 
> are enlightened people. 
> 
> You write: "There are many, many opportunities for
> moments of metta 
> when one understands the value of friendliness and
> kindness to others. 
> I don't need to go looking for a corpse…." Good for
> you, Sarah. As for 
> me, I'm not so confident that attachment is such a
> small fetter for me 
> that I'd feel comfortable explicitly rejecting
> Buddha's exhortation to 
> meditate on foulness as a way to combat the taint of
> sense desire.
> 
> Dan
> 



 
4197 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self

 
  Dear Kom and Erik:

This is really excellent hair-splitting--thanks.

mike


 
4198 From: Num 
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2001 10:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi all,

Quick questions?

What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti, 
in bhavanga citta??

Have to run again,

Num



 
4199 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:24am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  > How are you feeling, any better?  What did the doctor say, why such 
> high fever?  (I don't mean your future PhD wife, who must be so 
> worried too!)  Do take care of yourself,
Pneumonia. I have antibiotics and supposedly all will be fine in a few 
days.

 
4200 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dan,

--- Dan wrote:

> I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> cheerful.

Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
one 'noting''--does this agree with your
understanding?  
 
> Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> just take up the 
> lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> When the 
> thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> starts arising more 
> frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> sleep. These unusual 
> and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> and by tomorrow or 
> the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> time.

Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
paññati?  (This is not a rhetorical question).  If it
is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
(seemingly) intermingled?

I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
meditation.

Thanks and good health to you (and all of us),

mike


 
4201 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:31am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Hi Mike,
I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 
104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. And I must admit, I do have a 
preference for the current physical conditions--just a little more 
evidence that I am not an arahat. Then again, even Buddha had 
preferences for certain physical conditions. There's one interesting 
story along these lines from the Vinaya, I believe. [I might look it 
up later, but not just yet]. A gathering of bhikkhu's was getting a 
bit boisterous. Buddha decided to leave the gathering to meditate in 
the forest, away from all the hubbub. I've always wondered about this 
because without the fetters of craving and aversion, where does this 
preference come from? Apparently, even for Buddha's and arahats, there 
is still preference for certain physical conditions. The difference is 
that if those conditions are not available for them, it's no big deal. 
If those conditions aren't available for us, then we can get a little 
whiny about it.

Dan:
> > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> > cheerful.
Mike:
> Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
> keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> understanding?  
Tee hee! I don't see any problem whatsoever using everyday language in 
conversation and don't see much point in "overriding normal usage." 
  
> > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> > just take up the 
> > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> > When the 
> > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> > starts arising more 
> > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> > sleep. These unusual 
> > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> > and by tomorrow or 
> > the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> > time.
> 
> Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
> too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
> of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> paññati?  
Great question, Mike. The reflections are clearly paññati. The noting 
that the sickness is not going to last is just a diversionary tactic 
to keep from whining. Such diversionary tactics, although certainly 
not the BEST way to do things, do help. In the Vitakka-santhana sutta 
(MN 20) Buddha discusses techniques of removing undesirable evil 
thoughts. The first one is to replace the evil thoughts by their 
desirable and beneficial opposites. In this case, the evil whininess 
that can be so tempting during sickness is in no small measure due to 
identifying with the unpleasant sensations and wrongly understanding 
them to be permanent. Reflection that they are not helps to remove the 
Self from the sensations. It helps! [NOTE: MN 20 is nominally about 
removing distracting thoughts when trying to attain jhana. But the 
same tactics seem to make sense for more everyday experiences too, 
don't they? Another example of the "depth of teaching" (Mahanidana 
sutta commentary)]

What helps even more is bare observation of less abstract things 
(practice of insight). For example, the suffering associated with 
chills (which are fairly unpleasant things!) can be tremendously 
reduced by establishing mindfulness of the body: "The body is 
shivering;" on the vedana: "Unpleasant sensations;" On the mental 
contents: "Aversion." How is mindfulness established if there is no 
'who' to direct the establishing? First, chanda incites sankappa and 
viriya, which bring consciousness to the vicinity of the "four 
foundations." Then, samma ditthi checks the attention. Wise attention 
is allowed to reproduce, and unwise attention is not. In this way, 
moments of wise attention expand to the capacity allowed by the degree 
to which samma ditthi and samma samadhi and samma vayama that have 
been developed. 

> If it
> is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> (seemingly) intermingled?
Partly it is a defensive mechanism, but it is a defense against 
aversion. So, if it is opposed to aversion, does that not make it 
rooted in non-aversion? It seems so, but it is not so clear.

> I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
> kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
> meditation.

…and very good thing to do at that. Keep us posted.

Dan

 
4202 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:45am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] : Sanna

 
  Hi all,

Since someone has already brought up the issue on memory, sanna.  Let me ask 
and share with the group the definition, manifestation, character and may be 
function of sanna. Just my curiosity.

I have read that sanna is limitless, means sanna can recognize anything, 
paramattha, nibbana, pannatti, jhana, etc.  As I asked before about arammana 
of sanna in bhavanga citta, vinnana-citta, pathisandhi-citta or cuti-citta.  

Let me throw in my worldly knowledge, two basic kinds of memory, procedural 
implicit (procedural) memory and explicit memory.  Briefly, explicit memory 
involves conscious recollection; implicit memory involves the cognitive use 
of previous experiences without conscious recognition. We have to think about 
a friend's phone number but we do not have to think how to drive a car, one 
we can do it we can just do it.

I have read about 24-paccaya during my vaccation, (thanks for an updating 
K.Amara.)  When I read about upanissaya-paccaya, it sounds like a kind of 
skill or memory.  How can we explain or approach upanissaya-paccaya by sanna 
term or vice versa?  Let me cut and paste from dhammastudy.com, Summary of 
the 24 Paccaya :

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

5. Upanissaya-paccaya

Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for other 
realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is paccaya 
by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise concurrently 
with it.  There are three upanissaya-paccaya:

1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya

2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya

3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya

As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is 
the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that is arising 
in the present.  When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and 
attachment in the
 wrong view as strong arammana the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta 
would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a strong 
base by being the arammana.  For example, in the instant there is pleasure 
and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person regards as 
right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in the 
wrong view.

The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last 
lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next 
lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi.  The last 
lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or bhavanga to 
arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya.

Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is a strong birthplace for daily, habitually 
performed or accumulated realities.  When the lobha-mula-citta has arisen and 
fallen away, the realities that had arisen with the citta would accumulate in 
the subsequent citta.  Having thought and done something, there would be 
accumulated strength to make the same kind of lobha-mula-citta arise again.

Besides the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta, or the lobha-mula-citta 
arising with wrong view, one could see from real life that each person takes 
pleasure in or has different habits concerning what is seen through the eyes, 
sound that is heard through the ears, different smells, tastes, clothing, 
objects, utensils, stories or even fun and games.  This is because there has 
been that satisfaction before, accumulated liking for such things, and having 
done them, they would be pakatupanissaya-paccaya: the usual strong birthplace 
for what has been done and accumulated.  The Buddha manifested the Jataka or 
stories from the past when such and such events took place and the 
accumulations of the persons in the long time past.

Not only do each of us think, say, do, like or dislike certain things in this 
lifetime; but we must have done, thought, said, liked and disliked in that 
way before in the past.  Therefore it became paccaya to think, say or do the 
same things once more, no matter with any kind of kusala or akusala citta.  
This is because the accumulations of past deeds are pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya.

In the Commentaries, Mahanipata, the 5th Mahosathajataka, Mahosatha said to 
King Videharaja: Bad people see this world as normal, not the next world.  A 
brief statement but daily life to all those who have lobha or want something 
in daily life for they see only the importance of this lifetime.  They desire 
praise, fame and fortune, and benefits, but can these follow them to the next 
world?  The desired praise, fame and fortune of the present could never 
follow you to the next life.  The attachment to praise, fame and fortune 
rises 
 because bad people see this world as normal, or think only of this existing 
world, which enables them to perform dishonest deeds with lobha, dosa or 
moha, since they do not see the next world as normal.

Each instant of akusala that arises and falls away is 
pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya for that kind of akusala-citta in the future.  Even 
one instant of lobha-mula-citta could be upanissaya-paccaya for future 
lobha-mula-citta.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><end quote>

And one more question.  Memory loss, like in head trauma or injury, stroke 
and Alzheimer disease.  Something are paccaya for memory, when there are not 
enough conditions the memory is gone or unretrievable. Sanna cetasika arises 
with every citta as a part of a  7-sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika, but we 
can lose our memory by different causes.  What is the question :), is memory 
a part of sanna or what is memory.

Hope I am not digressive, I think it's still part of dhamma-study?  

Num





4203 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Hi Dan,

Hope you get well soon.

Aroka parama arpa.

Num



 
4204 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:36am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 
> 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. 

Hi Dan,

   I hope that you're going to get better soon.  I didn't know you're 
sick until now.  

Best wishes,
Alex Tran

 
4205 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  >        Another argument, albeit a bit of a stretch, that one could 
make in 
> favor of the discerning of a citta actually being a clear memory of 
that 
> citta is the base meaning of 'sati', namely 'remembering', 
'recollecting', 
> 'not forgetting', or 'keeping in mind'. This argument may be 
nonsense, of course. It's just a thought.




Dear Howard,

More like a brilliant proliferation!  I would add that it is a 
different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies the present 
object, even if that object is a memory from the past.  Sati of course 
arises uniquely with kusala citta, whereas sanna is a 'universal' 
cetasika, and they are both imperceptible in their 'automatic' 
functions.

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
4206 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Quick questions?
> 
> What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in patisandhi, 
in cuti, 
> in bhavanga citta??


Dear Num,

Quick reply?  Whatever arammana (object of the citta) kamma produced 
as vipaka for the marana sanna vithi!!!

See you soon!

Amara

 
 
4207 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:17am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  > Pneumonia. I have antibiotics and supposedly all will be fine in a 
few 
> days.

Dear Dan,

Get well soon!  And don't let that 'second arrow' through the mano 
dvara get you!  Glad you're constantly thinking of the dhamma, what a 
wise use of time.  Do keep us posted about that virus, please.

All the best,

Amara

 
4208 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:19am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Sir Mike, thanks for everything,

Amara


> Dan,
> 
> --- Dan wrote:
> 
> > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> > cheerful.
> 
> Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
> keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> understanding?  
>  
> > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> > just take up the 
> > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> > When the 
> > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> > starts arising more 
> > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> > sleep. These unusual 
> > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> > and by tomorrow or 
> > the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> > time.
> 
> Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
> too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
> of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> paññati?  (This is not a rhetorical question).  If it
> is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> (seemingly) intermingled?
> 
> I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
> kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
> meditation.
> 
> Thanks and good health to you (and all of us),
> 
> mike
> 

 
4209 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:25am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dear Dan,

You do sound a lot better!  (And not just the arahanta part!)  Take 
care and chin up!

Amara


> Hi Mike,
> I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 
> 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. And I must admit, I do have a 
> preference for the current physical conditions--just a little more 
> evidence that I am not an arahat. Then again, even Buddha had 
> preferences for certain physical conditions. There's one interesting 
> story along these lines from the Vinaya, I believe. [I might look it 
> up later, but not just yet]. A gathering of bhikkhu's was getting a 
> bit boisterous. Buddha decided to leave the gathering to meditate in 
> the forest, away from all the hubbub. I've always wondered about 
this 
> because without the fetters of craving and aversion, where does this 
> preference come from? Apparently, even for Buddha's and arahats, 
there 
> is still preference for certain physical conditions. The difference 
is 
> that if those conditions are not available for them, it's no big 
deal. 
> If those conditions aren't available for us, then we can get a 
little 
> whiny about it.
> 
> Dan:
> > > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> > > cheerful.
> Mike:
> > Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
> > keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> > one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> > understanding?  
> Tee hee! I don't see any problem whatsoever using everyday language 
in 
> conversation and don't see much point in "overriding normal usage." 
>   
> > > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> > > just take up the 
> > > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> > > When the 
> > > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> > > starts arising more 
> > > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> > > sleep. These unusual 
> > > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> > > and by tomorrow or 
> > > the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> > > time.
> > 
> > Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> > THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
> > too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
> > of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> > paññati?  
> Great question, Mike. The reflections are clearly paññati. The 
noting 
> that the sickness is not going to last is just a diversionary tactic 
> to keep from whining. Such diversionary tactics, although certainly 
> not the BEST way to do things, do help. In the Vitakka-santhana 
sutta 
> (MN 20) Buddha discusses techniques of removing undesirable evil 
> thoughts. The first one is to replace the evil thoughts by their 
> desirable and beneficial opposites. In this case, the evil whininess 
> that can be so tempting during sickness is in no small measure due 
to 
> identifying with the unpleasant sensations and wrongly understanding 
> them to be permanent. Reflection that they are not helps to remove 
the 
> Self from the sensations. It helps! [NOTE: MN 20 is nominally about 
> removing distracting thoughts when trying to attain jhana. But the 
> same tactics seem to make sense for more everyday experiences too, 
> don't they? Another example of the "depth of teaching" (Mahanidana 
> sutta commentary)]
> 
> What helps even more is bare observation of less abstract things 
> (practice of insight). For example, the suffering associated with 
> chills (which are fairly unpleasant things!) can be tremendously 
> reduced by establishing mindfulness of the body: "The body is 
> shivering;" on the vedana: "Unpleasant sensations;" On the mental 
> contents: "Aversion." How is mindfulness established if there is no 
> 'who' to direct the establishing? First, chanda incites sankappa and 
> viriya, which bring consciousness to the vicinity of the "four 
> foundations." Then, samma ditthi checks the attention. Wise 
attention 
> is allowed to reproduce, and unwise attention is not. In this way, 
> moments of wise attention expand to the capacity allowed by the 
degree 
> to which samma ditthi and samma samadhi and samma vayama that have 
> been developed. 
> 
> > If it
> > is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> > (seemingly) intermingled?
> Partly it is a defensive mechanism, but it is a defense against 
> aversion. So, if it is opposed to aversion, does that not make it 
> rooted in non-aversion? It seems so, but it is not so clear.
> 
> > I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
> > kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
> > meditation.
> 
> …and very good thing to do at that. Keep us posted.
> 
> Dan

 
4210 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Sarah


>>Dear Cybele,
>
>I hope you're getting on well in London.

Well I have good friends here but no one is English actually, I don't mean 
offense but that's is the truth.
Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-)
But not coldblooded please!


>Cybele, back to all your nice posts back to me and
>others. Sorry for the delay, but I think we've all
>been distracted by Erik's tasty brains. (I hope he
>responds to your note to him, btw).


I told you that my brains were not palatable for the mental set up of this 
group. ;-)
You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but don't worry I understand 
you are far too much busy.
And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far and I don't count on  any 
response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of coffee as I am Brazilian.


>If you don't mind,
>I'll just pick up a couple of points only.
>
>1. PASSION
>You asked if I find it 'totally incompatible with
>appreciation of dhamma?'
>Cybele, when we talk about passion, we're usually
>referring to (strong) lobha (attachment). Any reality,
>including this one, can be the object of understanding
>and in this way it is not incompatible at all. What we
>can say, is that at the moments of passion themselves,
>there is no appreciation of dhamma. So they arise at
>different moments. We all have a lot of lobha or
>passion. It's good to recognize it rather than try to
>suppress it as I know you realize, but we shouldn't
>kid ourselves that it's anything other than lobha.


What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress 
nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past 
accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop 
mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.
Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed my viewpoint, therefore 
difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the very concept of 
'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non 
commitment in interactions of any kind.


>
>2. CULTIVATION
>Let me quote you: '..I mean knowledge, awareness are
>also a skill therefore you can develop it, being
>always conscious of the ephemeral nature of everything
>and therefore you have these little awakenings and you
>fall asleep again for sure but it is like planting
>seeds without being eager to collect the fruits but we
>need 'cultivating' isn't it'.
>
>Cybele, awareness (sati) arises just for a brief
>moment to be aware on a reality such as seeing or
>passion. When we have the idea of 'being conscious of
>the ephemeral nature of everything', isn't this just
>thinking?

No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply 'understand ' - this 
comment is just a further elaboration to explain it but is not the awareness 
of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it intellectually a 
posteriori.
How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already passed, is just a memory, 
is not present anymore.
And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta and dukkha invites somehow 
the right mental conditions for this understanding to arise in my experience 
but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on many different factors.
Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool and never improved 
genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not, how could we 
understanding anything at all?


>It doesn't mean it's not wise thinking, but
>it's not the same as understanding the seeing or the
>passion now.  If there isn't this direct understanding
>or awareness there will continue to be the idea of
>someone who is conscious or watching or observing or
>noting realities because the namas (realities which
>are experiencing an object) are being taken for a
>self.

Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you call self or what we 
can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of thought, emotions, 
sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this understanding.
Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far as I am aware or nama 
rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is mindfulness.
The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be uprooted so easily - this is 
just thinking a wise conception of non self but you can experience it 
directly only when the right conditions arises.
Therefore understanding will be there and drop by drop will fill up the 
mental container of wisdom but it's a very long process eradicating 
ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of awakening can happen 
anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement in that very moment are 
overcome by awareness.


>
>The moments of awareness and understanding can and
>have to be cultivated, but WE can't do it....

We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant wishful thinking right now 
Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial but we are seeking for it 
DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in craving for results.
But we have to focuse our minds on it so far.


>
>Cybele, like you, I appreciate (and am very attached
>to) my dhamma friends. Hopefully we'll all be around
>for a good long while to help each other. Please let
>us know anytime the going gets tough if we can help.
>Never mind how 'frugal' the meals.

I like you too Sarah.
It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so to speak - I am not ok 
but that's ok. I can only endure.

>
>Actually, I know this is a very frugal mouthful. When
>I went through your delightful posts, there were so
>many enjoyable and good comments, that there is little
>for me to bite into!

I am sure you are not starving around here...

>
>I hope your friends are doing well and Cybele, thank
>you for your kind comments too about being
>'warm-hearted', even though 'Anglo-saxon'. Sorry,
>about the last bit (Anglo-saxon), maybe that will be
>improved in another life!

You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse oblige teasing 'gringos'. 
;-)

>
>With best wishes and respect,
>Sarah
>
>p.s. what did you think of 'hard-core dhamma'? No? O.K
>let's stick to dynamic meditators...it has a certain
>'ring' to it.....
>

Best Wishes to you too
pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong Kong otherwise I could 
have met you.
And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators.

LOve
CYbele

 
4211 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > Since someone has already brought up the issue on memory, sanna.  
Let me ask 
> and share with the group the definition, manifestation, character 
and may be 
> function of sanna. Just my curiosity.
> 
> I have read that sanna is limitless, means sanna can recognize 
anything, 
> paramattha, nibbana, pannatti, jhana, etc.  As I asked before about 
arammana 
> of sanna in bhavanga citta, vinnana-citta, pathisandhi-citta or 
cuti-citta.  
> 
> Let me throw in my worldly knowledge, two basic kinds of memory, 
procedural 
> implicit (procedural) memory and explicit memory.  Briefly, explicit 
memory 
> involves conscious recollection; implicit memory involves the 
cognitive use 
> of previous experiences without conscious recognition. We have to 
think about 
> a friend's phone number but we do not have to think how to drive a 
car, one 
> we can do it we can just do it.
> 
> I have read about 24-paccaya during my vaccation, (thanks for an 
updating 
> K.Amara.)  When I read about upanissaya-paccaya, it sounds like a 
kind of 
> skill or memory.  How can we explain or approach upanissaya-paccaya 
by sanna 
> term or vice versa?  Let me cut and paste from dhammastudy.com, 
Summary of 
> the 24 Paccaya :
> 


Dear K. Num,

Fantastic questions, first may I thank you for making me consider the 
matter again in detail and attempt to explain if from my own 
understandings, an excellent exercise I don't bother to do for myself 
very much.  Which is why the following is my personal view of the 
matter, not found in any book or explanations I have ever come across; 
therefore any errors are my responsibility alone.  Here goes:

Logically it would have to be the memory at the base of any skill or 
attachments, wouldn't it, even to the self.  If for example there is 
experience through the senses but no memory of it would we think there 
is an 'us'?  Would we want to experience the same things again?  
Memory plays a vital role in our lives which is why in the 
categorization of the 5 khandha, it is one of the 2 cetasika accorded 
its own classification:  rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. 
This is the classification of the paramattha dhamma we experience 
daily which is to say citta, cetsika and rupa, exempting nibbana.  
Nama and rupa covers everything, of course.  

One sees that of the 52 cetasika, two are accorded exceptional 
importance, while the others are lumped together as sankhara.  Vedana 
is precisely the emotions derived from specific experiences, and sanna 
the exact and indelible memory thereof.  The attachment (degrees of 
lobha) they form lead to cetana, the intention to do something in 
order to repeat and possibly intensify the desired effects, which is a 
major paccaya: kamma paccaya.  Kamma paccaya in its turn can be 
categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya paccaya, and here 
are the analogies I invented to try to explain my personal 
understanding:

From KS's references to fun and games below I would like to be more 
specific, for example when people who have never seen any games, are 
exposed to them, try them out, and even become very addicted to them, 
whether children's hide and seek or your tennis or horseback riding, 
or even video games.  This would be something like a pyramidal domino 
that could spread out or not depending on conditions, like the 
arammanupanissaya-paccaya.  The anantarupanissaya-paccaya would be 
like an endless line of single dominoes, except that each one that 
falls sets up the next one as it falls as well, so that the line is 
in fact infinite.  Pakatupanissaya-paccaya would be like the memory of 
how to set up the dominoes in the future, when there's a chance of 
playing again, not just domino but just about any game in life (and OF 
life.)



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> 5. Upanissaya-paccaya
> 
> Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for 
other 
> realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that 
is paccaya 
> by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise 
concurrently 
> with it.  There are three upanissaya-paccaya:
> 
> 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya
> 
> 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya
> 
> 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya
> 
> As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the 
lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is 
> the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that 
is arising 
> in the present.  When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and 
> attachment in the
>  wrong view as strong arammana the 
lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta 
> would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a 
strong 
> base by being the arammana.  For example, in the instant there is 
pleasure 
> and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person 
regards as 
> right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in 
the 
> wrong view.
> 
> The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of 
the last 
> lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next 
> lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi.  
The last 
> lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or 
bhavanga to 
> arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya.
> 
> Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is a strong birthplace for daily, habitually 
> performed or accumulated realities.  When the lobha-mula-citta has 
arisen and 
> fallen away, the realities that had arisen with the citta would 
accumulate in 
> the subsequent citta.  Having thought and done something, there 
would be 
> accumulated strength to make the same kind of lobha-mula-citta arise 
again.
> 
> Besides the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta, or the 
lobha-mula-citta 
> arising with wrong view, one could see from real life that each 
person takes 
> pleasure in or has different habits concerning what is seen through 
the eyes, 
> sound that is heard through the ears, different smells, tastes, 
clothing, 
> objects, utensils, stories or even fun and games.  This is because 
there has 
> been that satisfaction before, accumulated liking for such things, 
and having 
> done them, they would be pakatupanissaya-paccaya: the usual strong 
birthplace 
> for what has been done and accumulated.  The Buddha manifested the 
Jataka or 
> stories from the past when such and such events took place and the 
> accumulations of the persons in the long time past.
> 
> Not only do each of us think, say, do, like or dislike certain 
things in this 
> lifetime; but we must have done, thought, said, liked and disliked 
in that 
> way before in the past.  Therefore it became paccaya to think, say 
or do the 
> same things once more, no matter with any kind of kusala or akusala 
citta.  
> This is because the accumulations of past deeds are 
pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya.
> 
> In the Commentaries, Mahanipata, the 5th Mahosathajataka, Mahosatha 
said to 
> King Videharaja: Bad people see this world as normal, not the next 
world.  A 
> brief statement but daily life to all those who have lobha or want 
something 
> in daily life for they see only the importance of this lifetime.  
They desire 
> praise, fame and fortune, and benefits, but can these follow them to 
the next 
> world?  The desired praise, fame and fortune of the present could 
never 
> follow you to the next life.  The attachment to praise, fame and 
fortune 
> rises 
>  because bad people see this world as normal, or think only of this 
existing 
> world, which enables them to perform dishonest deeds with lobha, 
dosa or 
> moha, since they do not see the next world as normal.
> 
> Each instant of akusala that arises and falls away is 
> pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya for that kind of akusala-citta in the 
future.  Even 
> one instant of lobha-mula-citta could be upanissaya-paccaya for 
future 
> lobha-mula-citta.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><end quote>
> 
> And one more question.  Memory loss, like in head trauma or injury, 
stroke 
> and Alzheimer disease.  Something are paccaya for memory, when there 
are not 
> enough conditions the memory is gone or unretrievable. Sanna 
cetasika arises 
> with every citta as a part of a  7-sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika, 
but we 
> can lose our memory by different causes.  What is the question :), 
is memory 
> a part of sanna or what is memory.

Memory is definitely sanna and is a nama, and as such do not depend 
much on rupa but kamma to arise, though for most beings (i.e. not the 
'arupa' ones) they don't arise outside the appropriate rupa.  Memory 
loss can also occur from emotional blockage in a 'normal' brain, 
couldn't it, doctor?  Or in other cases, such as this accident victim 
whose skull was pierced through with an iron rod or something and 
suffered no major damage, from what I remember having seen on TV.  
There is also the case study of the community of very elderly nuns 
(average age over 80, in fact around 90 if I remember correctly) in 
the States who apparently had perfect memory.  When one died, I think 
a year or two ago, they discovered that her brain also showed signs of 
Alzheimer deterioration to the surprise of the researchers.  If it 
were not one's vipaka would any accidents or diseases happen?  There's 
no God up there we can conveniently blame for sending down minor cuts 
for some and major epidemics for millions of others.  

> Hope I am not digressive, I think it's still part of dhamma-study?  

Absolutely, in fact to me almost anything is!!!  But I personally 
enjoyed your questions very much, 

Bis, encore, et merci infiniment!

Amara

 
4212 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Hello, Cybele,

Say hi to Big Ben for me!

Amara


> Dear Sarah
> 
> 
> >>Dear Cybele,
> >
> >I hope you're getting on well in London.
> 

 
4213 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Amara

I am freezing my back side here, it's VERY COLD!!
Now I understand why they are 'coldblodeed'... ;-)
I will refer your regards to the Big Ben.

A hug
Cybele



>From: "Amara" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator
>Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:07:32 -0000
>
>Hello, Cybele,
>
>Say hi to Big Ben for me!
>
>Amara
>


 
4214 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Hi Cybele,

No matter how cold it is, I know that you always keep your heart warm, right? 
 The sun is never tired of giving his warmness to the earth.  Hope you are 
always sunny :)
Don't let poikilothermic people make you down, give them your kindness and 
passion.

<<What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress 
nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past 
accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop 
mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.>>

I think you got a right idea, know yourself as the way it is. Like somebody 
said, the first step to solve the problem is to recognize that we have a 
problem. Everything has it own causes and conditions and it changes also by 
causes and conditions not b/c of atta, sense of self or even an intention.

<<but I am just fed up of the very concept of 
'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non 
commitment in interactions of any kind.>>

I don't understand why you put detachment and frozen emotion together. We can 
detach or attach to our emotion, e.g., anger.  Frozen-emotion person can 
still attach to their expressive style.


Spring is coming. Keep yourself warm. Hope you enjoy your stay in London.  Is 
the air still pretty polluted there?

Num

 
4215 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Num


>
>Hi Cybele,
>
>No matter how cold it is, I know that you always keep your heart warm, 
>right?

RIGHT NUM! Glad to know you understand me! :-)


>  The sun is never tired of giving his warmness to the earth.  Hope you are
>always sunny :)
>Don't let poikilothermic people make you down, give them your kindness and
>passion.

Always Num, fear not. ;-)
I have got a big heart and down as I am I do not refuse warmth to anybody.


>
><<What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress
>nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past
>accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop
>mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.>>
>
>I think you got a right idea, know yourself as the way it is. Like somebody
>said, the first step to solve the problem is to recognize that we have a
>problem. Everything has it own causes and conditions and it changes also by
>causes and conditions not b/c of atta, sense of self or even an intention.

I don't see it as a problem actually, perhaps this is the problem! ;-)
I am teasing Num but however I just feel that this intensity could be yes 
canalized but is the that subtle, petulant meaning of control that puts me 
off...


>
><<but I am just fed up of the very concept of
>'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non
>commitment in interactions of any kind.>>
>
>I don't understand why you put detachment and frozen emotion together.

I am not the one who mixed it up, but many so called budhhist or 'spiritual 
seekers' do it.
They confound dismissiveness and suppression with detachment.
They freeze their feelings and emotions and justify their fear of 
investigate it as detachment.


>We can
>detach or attach to our emotion, e.g., anger.  Frozen-emotion person can
>still attach to their expressive style.

That's what I meant, justifying with 'detachment' you are really attached to 
your fear or anger, therefore is not craving but aversion, what doesn't 
change the fact that we are clinging to...


>
>Spring is coming. Keep yourself warm. Hope you enjoy your stay in London.  
>Is
>the air still pretty polluted there?
>
>Num

No London smog anymore Num, you are outdated! :-))))
Thanks for the warmth, much appreciated.

Cybele



 
4216 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Num,

Just contributing my (possibly wrong) understandings.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Num [mailto:Num]
>
> Quick questions?
>
> What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5
> vinna-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti,
> in bhavanga citta??

Since you have already looked up "the definition,
manifestation, character and may be
function of sanna", I assume that you also know that sanna
"marks" what it cognizes as the function.  Being able to
remember (what happened in the past, and perhaps as what
Howard has suggested recently, the act of cognizing
already-fallen paramatha dhamma whose characteristics are
already gone) is the manifestation of (past) sanna (that was
there cognizing the object that the current citta and
current sanna is cognizing).

If we follow that train of thought, then the question "What
does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in
patisandhi, in cuti,
in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each sanna
arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same object as
the citta.

Hence:

When the seeing citta sees, the co-arising sanna cognizes
color
When the hearing citta hears, the co-arising sanna cognizes
sound
When the smelling citta smells, the co-arising sanna
cognizes smell
etc.
Patisandhi, cuti, and bhavanga citta of this life cognizes
the same aramana as the last vithi (???) of the last life.

I cannot think of a way to map the system of "Implicit" and
"Explicit" memory to paramatha dhamma.  I think when we say
we "remember" (not marking) something, it means that the act
of remembering is occuring in Javana.  The appearance of how
hard we have to think about it I think depends on how
"skilled" the vitaka cetasikas is in applying to the desired
aramanas.  A friend's phone number can become a second
nature after we have been calling for a while.  I still
remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even
though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember (the
Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was
when I just learned how to drive.

I think the act of remembering seems to be a function of
vitakka more than a function of sanna (but namas are so
mutually co-dependent that this is probably not very
accurate to say).  The fact that the current Vitakka is
applying on the aramana of the past implies (is a
manifestation of) the existence/function of the past sanna.

All in all though, it appears that we (or at least I) tend
to remember kusala more than akusala.  Khun Num, how about
giving me an explanation?

kom

 
4217 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> More like a brilliant proliferation!  I would add
> that it is a
> different cetasika from sanna, though, and only
> studies the present
> object, even if that object is a memory from the
> past.  Sati of course

I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently fallen"...
:-)

kom

 
4218 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:16pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
> mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently fallen"...
> :-)
> 
> kom

Dear K Kom, 

I don't think so, I meant the awareness of 'thinking' (about the 
characteristics of the former citta, such as how the ugly vedana was). 
 Does that work for you?

Amara

 
4219 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:33pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 


Earlier quote:
> I would add that it [sati] is a
> different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies
the present
> object, even if that object is a memory from the past.

Earlier reply:
> > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
> > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently
> fallen"...
> > :-)
> >
> > kom
>

Later quote:
> Dear K Kom,
>
> I don't think so, I meant the awareness of
> 'thinking' (about the
> characteristics of the former citta, such as how
> the ugly vedana was).
>  Does that work for you?
>
> Amara

Don't you think we are leading back to the original question
that Howard raises?   Sati at the present can be cognizing
two different types of object:
1) Nama: the nama [except nibanna] that the sati (as in
Satipatthana) cognizes has to have fallen.  Sati doesn't
arise to cognize nama that is still there [except maybe in
the supernatural citta], that hasn't fallen yet.
2) Rupa: the rupa that the sati (as in Satipatthana)
cognizes may still be around (through the 5 dvaras) if the
sati is also within the 5 dvara-vith but must have fallen if
the sati is in within the mano-vithi.

The "thinking" (one of) cittas/cetasikas that the current
sati cognizes surely would have fallen before the current
sati arises.

Do I miss something?

kom

 
4220 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:35pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > I cannot think of a way to map the system of "Implicit" and
> "Explicit" memory to paramatha dhamma.  I think when we say
> we "remember" (not marking) something, it means that the act
> of remembering is occuring in Javana.  The appearance of how
> hard we have to think about it I think depends on how
> "skilled" the vitaka cetasikas is in applying to the desired
> aramanas.  A friend's phone number can become a second
> nature after we have been calling for a while.  I still
> remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even
> though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember (the
> Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was
> when I just learned how to drive.
> 
> I think the act of remembering seems to be a function of
> vitakka more than a function of sanna (but namas are so
> mutually co-dependent that this is probably not very
> accurate to say).  The fact that the current Vitakka is
> applying on the aramana of the past implies (is a
> manifestation of) the existence/function of the past sanna.


Dear K.Kom, 

I beg to differ here, vitaka is often used with vicara, meaning to 
think and to sustain or support that thinking, as in the ch. on 
cetasika in the 'Summary' in the advanced section of 
<http://dhammastudy.com/> from which this excerpt:

1. Vitakka-cetasika is the cetasika that approaches or applies itself 
to the arammana that the phassa-cetasika is in contact with.  The 
vitakka-cetasika arises with 55 cetasika: 44 kamavacara-citta and 11 
pathamajjhana-citta, exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the 
dutiyajjhana, tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana.  The 
vitakka-cetasika would approach or applies itself to the arammana 
according to the state of the citta and cetasika it arises with. The 
vitakka-cetasika that approaches the arammana is like the feet of the 
world because it makes the world move forward (with the citta arising 
and evolving) according to the specific vitakka-cetasika. 

2. Vicara-cetasika is the cetasika that supports and follows vitakka. 
 No matter what the vitakka approaches, the vicara would support and 
follow.  The Vicara-cetasika arises with 66 citta comprising 44 
kamavacara-citta, 11 pathamajjhana-citta and 11 dutiyajjhana, 
exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the tatiyajjhana, 
catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana.  Any citta with vitakka-cetasika 
arising concurrently would also have vicara-cetasika arising with it 
exempting 11 citta which have only vicara-cetasika without 
vitakka-cetasika arising concurrently, namely the 11 
dutiyajjhana-citta. 

While for sanna which is definitely remembering and after that 
recalling, the explanation is:

 3. Sanna-cetasika is the cetasika that remembers (cognizes) the 
arammana.  The sanna-cetasika remembers all arammana that appear as 
continuous events, entities, people.  It remembers the feelings of 
happiness, unhappiness, gladness, sorrow or indifference for the 
arammana.  It is an important paccaya that enhances attachment and 
clinging to life in the same way as vedana-cetasika, which upon 
feeling happy or glad, for example, would thereby be mistakenly 
attached to and desire the distinct feeling continuously.  Therefore 
the vedana-cetasika constitutes the vedanakkhandha by itself and 
sanna-cetasika the sanna- khandha.  While the 50 other cetasika 
compose the citta according to the characteristics of the respective 
cetasika and form the sankharakkhandha. 

(End quotes)


Of course one can alternately be the object of the other also.

Amara


> All in all though, it appears that we (or at least I) tend
> to remember kusala more than akusala.  Khun Num, how about
> giving me an explanation?
> 
> kom

 
4221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:41pm
Subject: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, 

I'm giving myself an ambitious task to pick up several
threads at the same time....Hmmmmm!!

Let's start with Erik's question to me:
*************************************************
"How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your
explanation of this."
*************************************************
Can we all agree that seeing is a mental phenemenon
which experiences visible object and that visible
object is that which is seen through the eye-sense? We
can call it visible object or colour or that which
appears through the eyes. It is not a computer, text
or a thing. 

Can we further agree that if we close our eyes, there
is no seeing? Seeing is a nama, the 'reality' which
experiences the object, no being or thing in it. It is
also a citta accompanied by its attendants, the
cetasikas. Can we say that it only experiences visible
object through the eye-door and arises because of many
different conditions? 

Can we also agree that there isn't just one citta
experiencing an object but a series of cittas? The
visible object which is experienced through the eye
door is also experienced by cittas through the mind
door. Alex and Mike, is this clear enough? Of course,
the conditions by which any citta arises at any given
time are very complex. 

At each moment seeing experiences visible object (and
the subsequent cittas experience it through the mind
door), sanna cetasika (perception, memory) marks or
recognizes the object and is a proximate cause for
sati (awareness) to be aware of the visible object.
Right, Des? Sanna can be skilful or unskilful, it can
mark correctly or wrongly, with or without sati. Even
for a stroke patient or alzheimer's patient, sanna is
marking at each moment, Num, even when conventionally
we'd say there's no memory.

So what we take for atta (self) in the case of seeing
is actually the moment of experiencing that which is
seen followed by thinking and conceptualizing about
it. When we think of memory or mindfulness
conventionally or in psychological terms, it has very
little to do with the precise characteristics of these
realities as explained clearly by the Buddha. Being
mindful of eating or walking or remembering the time
are not examples of sati and sanna. They are concepts
based on a number of different realities and concepts.
So far, so good? 

The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by
being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears
at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact
moment of seeing or immediately following it in the
mind-door process is not very important. What is
important is to understand its nature when it appears.
I can hear Erik ready to object!

So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence?
Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it
would not arise and would not perform its function.

There was some discussion awhile back (between Jon and
Howard I believe) about the individual essence or
sabhava. Howard, you amy wish to refer back to this,
but now rather than hunting back, let me quote from
the Visuddhimagga which has many notes about sabhava
(individual essence). I'm looking at ChX1V, (the start
of the section on vipassana),3-7, which discusses
panna (understanding) and also sanna (perception):

'....It is understanding (panna) in the sense of act
of understanding (pajanana).  What is this act of
understanding?  It is knowing (janana) in a particular
mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sanjanana)
and cognizing (vijanana).  For though the state of
knowing (janana-bhava) is equally present in
perception (sanna), in consciousness (vinnana) and in
understanding (panna), nevertheless perception is only
the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or
'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its
characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self.
 Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow,
and it brings about the penetration of its
characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by
endeavouring, the manifestation of the (supramundane)
path.  Understanding knows the object in the way
already stated, it brings about the penetration of the
characteristics, and it brings about, by endeavouring,
the manifestation of the
path.................Understanding has the
characteristic of penetrating the individual essences
of states*.  Its function is to abolish the darkness
of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of
states.  It is manifested as non-delusion.  Because of
the words "One who is concentrated knows and sees
correctly (A.v.3), its proximate cause is
concentration...'

*' 'A phenomenon's own essence (sako bhavo) or
existing essence (samano va bhava) is its individual
essence (sabhava). Cf Ch V111, note 68 where Pm gives
the definition from saha-bhava (with essence).

At the last reference we find the definition of
sabhava is narrower than dhamma and is similar to
dhatu (element)...'dhamma without individual essence
(asabhava-dhamma) include the attainment of cessation
and some concepts such as space and time.....Of
nibbana..which has its own individual essence, the
Mula Tia says: 'Nibbana is not like othe dhammas;
because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an
object of consciousness (alambitum) by one who has not
realized it. That is why it has to be realized by
change-of-lineage. It has profundity surpassing any
individual essence belonging to the three periods of
time.'..

There is a lot more detail on sabhava in the Vism. 

As I have mentioned, there has to be awareness of the
characteristic of 'essence' or nature of seeing over
and over and over again. Direct understanding has to
know its nature as being not-self and quite different
from visible object, sanna and thinking. When there is
so little understanding now, I wonder rather what is
the use of thinking much about nibbana when really
there can be so little comprehension of what its
profundity means.

When we consider different realities, sometimes we may
consider them in terms of dependent origination,
sometimes as khandhas, sometimes as nama and rupa,
sometimes in tems of kamma and vipaka. Whatever
classification or terminology is being used, the
purpose is to help remind us about different realities
appearing right now which can be known as anatta.

Dan, I hope you're recovering well from the pneumonia.
When you're lying in bed with a fever, is there
seeing? Can we call it 'meditation' at this moment of
being aware of seeing?  

Best regards to you all and thanks for listening to a
long post.

Sarah



 
4222 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Earlier quote:
> > I would add that it [sati] is a
> > different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies
> the present
> > object, even if that object is a memory from the past.
> 
> Earlier reply:
> > > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
> > > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently
> > fallen"...
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > kom
> >
> 
> Later quote:
> > Dear K Kom,
> >
> > I don't think so, I meant the awareness of
> > 'thinking' (about the
> > characteristics of the former citta, such as how
> > the ugly vedana was).
> >  Does that work for you?
> >
> > Amara
> 
> Don't you think we are leading back to the original question
> that Howard raises?   Sati at the present can be cognizing
> two different types of object:
> 1) Nama: the nama [except nibanna] that the sati (as in
> Satipatthana) cognizes has to have fallen.  Sati doesn't
> arise to cognize nama that is still there [except maybe in
> the supernatural citta], that hasn't fallen yet.
> 2) Rupa: the rupa that the sati (as in Satipatthana)
> cognizes may still be around (through the 5 dvaras) if the
> sati is also within the 5 dvara-vith but must have fallen if
> the sati is in within the mano-vithi.
> 
> The "thinking" (one of) cittas/cetasikas that the current
> sati cognizes surely would have fallen before the current
> sati arises.

I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part,

As to the nama, we have to make the distinction: 

First, sati arises automatically with all kusala citta, do you agree?
Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its 
characteristics, but it is there, which is why kusala condones to the 
arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped in akusala would 
hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even occur at its weakest 
level.  

However, in a person who has developed some sati to a certain degree, 
when there are conditions for it to arise sati would do so even when 
there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a flood.  At the split 
seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta, as bhavana as sati 
arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka and sanna applying 
to the the realities that has just fallen away, but it cannot be the 
nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for kusala citta which can 
simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.

Does this make any sense?

Amara

 
4223 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al. : speech

 
  Num,

I really appreciated your very well-selected and
timely quotes. I found them to be full of useful
reminders and had actually just been reflecting on
this topic when I received your posts.

I am surprised when I read someone writes or speaks
with just compassion or good intentions. For me, even
at the best of times, there are many more moments of
akusala (unwholesomeness) than kusala (wholesomeness)
when I speak. For example, it can be wrong speech at
the moments when there is a lack of consideration for
the other's feelings and even when we don't speak out
at all, if we keep quiet with dosa (avesion), it is
not kusala that avoids wrong speech.

Thank you, Num. I think we all need many of these
reminders (at least I do)! Sorry, must run!!:-)

Sarah

 --- Num wrote: > Hi all,
> 
> I am going to make 3 posts rgd good speech, anger,
> the way and how to examine 
> dhamma.    I will pretty much cut and paste the
> sutta from accesstoinsight.   
> Pardon me if you guys have already read all of
> these.   Dhamma is deep, so 
> read it carefully and attentively, OK.  
> 
> Good speech:
> 
> Every fool who is born
> has an axe within his mouth
> with which he cuts himself
> when he uses wrong speech. 
> 
> One should utter only words
> which do no harm to oneself
> and cause no harm for others:
> that is truly beautiful speech. 
> 
> Speak kind words, words
> rejoiced at and welcomed,
> words that bear ill-will to none;
> always speak kindly to others. 
> 
> The worse of the two is he
> who, when abused, retaliates.
> One who does not retaliate
> wins a battle hard to win. 
> 
> The fool thinks he has won a battle
> when he bullies with harsh speech,
> but knowing how to be forbearing
> alone makes one victorious. 
> 
> When the recluse speaks much
> it is only to speak about the goal.
> Knowingly he teaches the Dhamma,
> knowingly he speaks much. 
> 
> If one addresses those who wish
> to learn, without wavering, imparting
> understanding, opening up and not
> obscuring the teaching. 
> 
> Speaking without hesitation nor
> getting angry when asked a question,
> a monk like this is worthy
> to proclaim the teachings. 
> 
> If he does not speak up, others know
> him not; he is just a wise man mixed
> up with fools. But if he speaks about
> and teaches the Deathless, others will
> know him. So let him light up the Dhamma,
> let him lift the sage's banner high. 
> 
> The Buddha speaks words that lead
> to the winning of security, the ending
> of sorrow and the attaining of Nibbana.
> Truly, this is the speech supreme. 
> 
> 
> I got this from Gemstones of the Good Dhamma
> (Saddhamma-maniratana), 
> Vacavagga.



 
4224 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:05pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part,

Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in
dispute?  Curious mind wants to know!

> First, sati arises automatically with all kusala
> citta, do you agree?

100%

> Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its
> characteristics, but it is there, which is why
> kusala condones to the
> arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped
> in akusala would
> hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even
> occur at its weakest
> level.

Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc...

>
> However, in a person who has developed some sati
> to a certain degree,
> when there are conditions for it to arise sati
> would do so even when
> there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a
> flood.  At the split
> seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta,

But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma
that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)?  I don't
believe it cognizes itself.  If sati is cognizing sati, then
it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing.
Isn't this true?

> as bhavana as sati
> arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka
> and sanna applying
> to the the realities that has just fallen away,
> but it cannot be the
> nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for
> kusala citta which can
> simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.
>

Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't
already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)?  If you are,
I would ask for a recount!  I would appreciate it if you ask
Tan A. Sujin on this issue..

kom

 
4225 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:16pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear Sarah,

In your passage to Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, and Num,
does "essence" refer to sabhava, functions, infinitely small
existence, etc., or strictly sabhava?

Anumoddhana.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 11:42 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup]
> sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia
>
>
> Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num,
>

 
4226 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:56pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear K. Amara,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Amara 
> >
> > I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part,
> 
> Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in
> dispute?  Curious mind wants to know!
> 
> > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala
> > citta, do you agree?
> 
> 100%
> 
> > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its
> > characteristics, but it is there, which is why
> > kusala condones to the
> > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped
> > in akusala would
> > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even
> > occur at its weakest
> > level.
> 
> Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc...
> 
> >
> > However, in a person who has developed some sati
> > to a certain degree,
> > when there are conditions for it to arise sati
> > would do so even when
> > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a
> > flood.  At the split
> > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta,
> 
> But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma
> that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)?  I don't
> believe it cognizes itself.  If sati is cognizing sati, then
> it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing.
> Isn't this true?


Dear K. Kom, 

Not at all, it is not the study of something past, UNIQUELY WHAT IS 
APPEARING AT THAT MOMENT CAN SHOW ITS TRUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT 
CLEARLY.  Please reread the 'Summary' chapter of vipassana, from which 
this is an extract:

 For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the 
truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. 
 It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the 
true characteristics of realities as they truly are.  The Buddha 
manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the 
eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant 
in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and 
samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, one would not 
endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that 
fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they 
truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 

...Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the 
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine 
arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they 
are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves....

 Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
contact. 

 Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only 
one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
(samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), 
samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 

At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
(excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and 
know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma  
little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear 
knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 

 Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense 
and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When sati arises to 
be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 

 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
kayanupassana-satipatthana. 

 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
vedananupassana-satipatthana. 

3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
cittanupassana-satipatthana. 

4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 

...All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, 
are anatta.  They could arise when there are paccaya or when the 
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there 
would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, 
noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing 
through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. 

Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana arises 
they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  When 
satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance that 
arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note 
and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): 
sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. 

(End quote)


Everthing has to be as the paramatthadhamma is experienced, never 
after it has fallen away.  Otherwise they are just moments of thoughts 
unless the thoughts are objects of awareness at that moment too.


> > as bhavana as sati
> > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka
> > and sanna applying
> > to the the realities that has just fallen away,
> > but it cannot be the
> > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for
> > kusala citta which can
> > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.
> >
> 
> Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't
> already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)?  If you are,
> I would ask for a recount!  I would appreciate it if you ask
> Tan A. Sujin on this issue..
> 


That is precisely what happens when sati does its duty, Nibbana 
included, at the level of attainment.  Not having nibbana as arammana, 
how can the citta have the steadfastness of the jhana at that moment?

I will call Tan A right now, and you might do the same too, to make 
sure.

A.

 
4227 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  --- dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
The commentary and tika to the Brahmajala sutta give an
extensive (14 pages in Bhikhu Bodhi's translation) definitions
of Tathagata.pp331-334 of The all-embracing net of views.
robert


 
4228 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:50pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear all,

MAJOR RETRACTION!

Sorry for misleading anyone, K. Kom, you are RIGHT, everything happens 
at such an amazing speed, 17 the speed of the fastest rupa, therefore 
although it is regarded as the same moment, down to the individual 
citta even the tiny instant of sati arises in alternation with the 
other citta.  At the level of the individual citta therefore the citta 
that sees, hears, etc., being there to receive vipaka, have the fewest 
cetasika accompanying them, just the seven minimal universals, so sati 
could never arise there.  During the subsequent 7 instants of javana I 
think it can, but I had better ask K. Kom to take over the 
explanations as KS said she would explain the details on Saturday.  

Thanks K. Kom, that was a HUGE REVISION, I had forgotten some of the 
details, and learned something new as well!!!  I'm glad you guys are 
there who will not let something of this magnitude pass and correct my 
misunderstanding before I mislead too many others.  Sorry to those I 
did so far, by the way, it was an 'honest' mistake, I didn't mean to 
give the wrong information!  Glad to be corrected when I am really 
wrong, and to be learning something new, K. Kom, do explain how it 
really is!

Amara 



> > Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in
> > dispute?  Curious mind wants to know!
> > 
> > > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala
> > > citta, do you agree?
> > 
> > 100%
> > 
> > > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its
> > > characteristics, but it is there, which is why
> > > kusala condones to the
> > > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped
> > > in akusala would
> > > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even
> > > occur at its weakest
> > > level.
> > 
> > Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc...
> > 
> > >
> > > However, in a person who has developed some sati
> > > to a certain degree,
> > > when there are conditions for it to arise sati
> > > would do so even when
> > > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a
> > > flood.  At the split
> > > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta,
> > 
> > But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma
> > that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)?  I don't
> > believe it cognizes itself.  If sati is cognizing sati, then
> > it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing.
> > Isn't this true?
> 
> 
> Dear K. Kom, 
> 
> Not at all, it is not the study of something past, UNIQUELY WHAT IS 
> APPEARING AT THAT MOMENT CAN SHOW ITS TRUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT 
> CLEARLY.  Please reread the 'Summary' chapter of vipassana, from 
which 
> this is an extract:
> 
>  For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
> realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
> the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the 
> truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
> the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very 
moment. 
>  It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
> knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the 
> true characteristics of realities as they truly are.  The Buddha 
> manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the 
> eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each 
instant 
> in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and 
> samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, one would not 
> endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna 
that 
> fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they 
> truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 
> 
> ...Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and 
> rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the 
> mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine 
> arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they 
> are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves....
> 
>  Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
> entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
> same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
> contact. 
> 
>  Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
> rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
> develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is 
only 
> one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
> samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
> samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
> (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), 
> samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
> samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 
> 
> At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
> (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
> virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
> would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
> sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
> nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
> bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
> with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine 
and 
> know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma 
 
> little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear 
> knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 
> 
>  Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense 
> and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When sati arises 
to 
> be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 
> 
>  1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of 
> the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
> kayanupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
>  2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
> of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
> vedananupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
> 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of 
> the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
> cittanupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
> 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of 
> the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
> dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
> ...All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, 
> are anatta.  They could arise when there are paccaya or when the 
> mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there 
> would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, 
> noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing 
> through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. 
> 
> Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana 
arises 
> they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  When 
> satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
> characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance 
that 
> arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes 
note 
> and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
> appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): 
> sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and 
anurakkhanapadhana. 
> 
> (End quote)
> 
> 
> Everthing has to be as the paramatthadhamma is experienced, never 
> after it has fallen away.  Otherwise they are just moments of 
thoughts 
> unless the thoughts are objects of awareness at that moment too.
> 
> 
> > > as bhavana as sati
> > > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka
> > > and sanna applying
> > > to the the realities that has just fallen away,
> > > but it cannot be the
> > > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for
> > > kusala citta which can
> > > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.
> > >
> > 
> > Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't
> > already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)?  If you are,
> > I would ask for a recount!  I would appreciate it if you ask
> > Tan A. Sujin on this issue..
> > 
> 
> 
> That is precisely what happens when sati does its duty, Nibbana 
> included, at the level of attainment.  Not having nibbana as 
arammana, 
> how can the citta have the steadfastness of the jhana at that 
moment?
> 
> I will call Tan A right now, and you might do the same too, to make 
> sure.
> 
> A.

 
4229 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  Thank you, Robert.

Bhante D.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" 
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"


>
> --- dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
> The commentary and tika to the Brahmajala sutta give an
> extensive (14 pages in Bhikhu Bodhi's translation) definitions
> of Tathagata.pp331-334 of The all-embracing net of views.
> robert


 
4230 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, 
> 
> I'm giving myself an ambitious task to pick up several
> threads at the same time....Hmmmmm!!

And doing a marvelous job of it, I should say. This is exactly the 
sort of stuff I was hoping to learn here.

> Let's start with Erik's question to me:
> *************************************************
> "How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your
> explanation of this."
> *************************************************

> Right, Des? Sanna can be skilful or unskilful, it can
> mark correctly or wrongly, with or without sati.

This is interesting. I never knew this. I had assumed that sanna was 
a neutral in terms of kusala/akusala. Or do you not mean kusala, but 
rather "mistaken" and "non-mistaken?"

> The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by
> being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears
> at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact
> moment of seeing or immediately following it in the
> mind-door process is not very important. What is
> important is to understand its nature when it appears.
> I can hear Erik ready to object!

No, you won't, because this make perfect sense to me. :)

> So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence?
> Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it
> would not arise and would not perform its function.

I am glad you added "essence" here is merely ascribed in relation to 
the object's performing a certain function.

> When we consider different realities, sometimes we may
> consider them in terms of dependent origination,
> sometimes as khandhas, sometimes as nama and rupa,
> sometimes in tems of kamma and vipaka. Whatever
> classification or terminology is being used, the
> purpose is to help remind us about different realities
> appearing right now which can be known as anatta.

I agree with this 100%, just so you know.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply, Sarah. I am learning 
exactly the sort of things I was hoping to.

 
4231 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Can we also agree that there isn't just one citta
> experiencing an object but a series of cittas? 

This seems self-evident.  Assuming the great brevity
of cittas and cetasikas, without these long series of
processes no impingement could last long enough to
condtion much of anything conscious. 

> The
> visible object which is experienced through the eye
> door is also experienced by cittas through the mind
> door. Alex and Mike, is this clear enough?

I know this theoretically (from having read it) but am
not clear on how it is that the a rupa appears at the
mind door AFTER having been taken as an object through
one of the sense doors.

Thanks in advance.

mike


 
4232 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:09pm
Subject: Holiday (of sorts)

 
  Once the illness passes, I'm going to find myself far behind in my 
work, so once again I will take a holiday from the dsg for some time. 
Thanks Amara, Mike, Alex, Howard, Num, des (et al.) for you warm 
thoughts. 

Sarah and Jon, I'm sorry to fall behind on responses to your great 
posts. Your posts always require me to think--something that I haven't 
been too good at lately. I do hope to get on board to respond before I 
go back to work [hopefully Friday afternoon :) ].

Sarah, yes we can certainly call it 'meditation' and 'practice.' But 
these aren't the kinds of physical conditions I prefer.

 
4233 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:29pm
Subject: Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, 

Dear Sarah,

   Thank you for the detailed post.  I'll re-read pp 32-34 of A 
Manual of Abhidhamma by Thera Narada and the Vism. carefully. 

I'll be back, :-)))
Alex

 
4234 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       I comment here on just a small section of your post. In a message 
dated 3/22/01 2:43:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sarah writes:


> The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by
> being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears
> at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact
> moment of seeing or immediately following it in the
> mind-door process is not very important. What is
> important is to understand its nature when it appears.
> I can hear Erik ready to object!
> 
> So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence?
> Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it
> would not arise and would not perform its function.
> 
> There was some discussion awhile back (between Jon and
> Howard I believe) about the individual essence or
> sabhava. Howard, you amy wish to refer back to this,
> but now rather than hunting back, let me quote from
> the Visuddhimagga which has many notes about sabhava
> (individual essence). I'm looking at ChX1V, (the start
> of the section on vipassana),3-7, which discusses
> panna (understanding) and also sanna (perception):
> 
> 
==================================
       It seems that you are using 'essence' here to mean little more than 
lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have characteristics. But I 
don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the same meaning as 
'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. Essence or own-being or self-nature or sabhava 
is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by virtue of their being 
impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. At the same time, they have 
characteristics, being conditioned. The unconditioned dhamma has no essence, 
being an absence - the absence of all conditions, but, being empty of all 
conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also without characteristic. This 
is the way it seems to me. 
       If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having of a characteristic 
feature, the only problem I have is that I think that is an odd usage for the 
term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the having of a feature in an 
essential, unconditional manner, then I have a bigger problem with it. For 
example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But that non-fluidity is due 
to various factors including crystalline stucture, temperature, and lack of 
compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes in conditions, the 
characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which point *we* no longer use 
the word/concept 'ice').

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4235 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:45am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> During the subsequent 7
> instants of javana I
> think it can, but I had better ask K. Kom to take
> over the
> explanations as KS said she would explain the
> details on Saturday.

Saturday is tomorrow for you.  I don't think we have to wait
that long to hear from Tan A. Sujin!

My explanation [waiting for correction from K. Amara/KS]
from memory is that:

1) The 5-dvara vithi cittas (vipaka, kiriya, kusala or
akusala) all experience paramatha dhamma [1 of the 7 rupas]
that is still there (but rises before the vithi cittas
themselves).

2) The cittas of the same 5-dvara vithi (14, discounting
bavangha) cognizes the same aramana.  The aramana doesn't
change within the vithi.

3) The javana cittas rising in the same 5-dvara vithi, if
rising with Sati (satipatthana), can only cognizes 1 of the
7 rupas.

4) The cittas of the same mano-dvara vithi (10 or 8 some
time and some bhumi discounting the last 2) also cognizes
only 1 aramana for the entire vithi, with the exception of
the magga vithi where more than one aramanas are experienced
in the vithi.

5) The mano-dvara vithi rising after the 5-dvara vithi,
after the bhavanga, also cognizes the same aramana [1 of 7
rupas] as the 5-dvara vithi.  Although still cognizing
paramatha aramana, the aramana in fact has already fallen
(at least two citta-moments ago, counting the two necessary
bhavangha).  This is the jist of the question that Howard
brought up.  How could the aramana be paramatha unless
something unless we are seeing a manifestation of sanna.
Note that all the cittas within the mano-dvara vithi ALL
rise with Vittaka (discounting some of the jhana cittas).

6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with the 5-dvara
vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
paramattha [one of the namas, since we already discount the
rupas], the aramana again has alrady fallen at least 2
citta-moments ago.  The aramana in such a vithi cannot be
the namas rising in the same vithi (since the entire vithi
cognizes the same aramana); therefore, the aramana in such a
vithi must rise in a vithi preceding it.  Hence, except for
nibhanna, citta can only cognizes nama that is no longer
there.  The chracteristic experienced is still considered
paramattha even if it is no longer there.

K. Amara, I would also love to hear Tan A. Sujin's
explanations of sanna and vittaka also.  I keep hearing from
different dhama conversations something like this: when we
"don't remember" something that we want to remember, it
means Vitaka is not applying on the desired aramana.  There
is sanna arising at every moment, but the rising sanna only
marks the same aramana of the entire vithi even when we are
not remembering.  That's why the conjecture about sanna
marks, but vitakka remembers.  Note also that I make some
differentiation between "marking" and "remembering",
hopefully consistently across all the messages.

kom

 
4236 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:05am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear K. Amara et Al.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kom Tukovinit 
>
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with
> the 5-dvara
> vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
> cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
> paramattha [one of the namas, since we already
> discount the
> rupas],

Looks like my counting is defective, like usual.  There are
still other 21 rupas left that can be only experienced
through the mano-vithi.  For each of these other 21 rupas, I
am uncertain of when it rises and falls in relative to the
"observing" citta.

kom

 
 
4237 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi Kom and K.Amara,

What's a great post.!! Thanks for sharing your learning, your sharp and keen 
wisdom with the dsg.  I am elated. :-)

Last night I was so tired from a tennis match, so I could not follow what you 
guys had discussed.  

So let me approach this issue by telling you what is my understanding as well 
as asking some questions at the same time.  Please do correct me if I am 
wrong.

1. During the 17 moments of citta, the rupa which has arisen still not yet 
fallen away.

2. Only dvi-panca-vinnana-citta has rupa as a direct arammana in all 17 
moments??

(2a) Dvi-panca-vinnana-citta, has the seven minimal universal cetasika. What 
does 
cetana cetasika, which is kamma-paccaya, do in all vipaka citta?? 

(2b) what is an arammana for the first bhavanga-citta, atita-bhavaga??

3. Sati can have kusula or akusula as an arammana.  Sati cannot arise at the 
same moment with akusula but always with all kusula citta as a 19 universal 
sobhana-cetasika. Akusula citta can be an arammana for kusula citta as a 
arammana-paccaya but sati is able to be aware of  akusula citta as an 
arammana of citta that sati coarises.  I think sati can be aware of only the 
present moment of current citta that sati coarises with???  Am I making 
sense, or just talking in circle??

Have to run again,

Num




 
4238 From: Num 
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi again Kom and K.Amara,

Kom, what do you mean by "mark" the object. Could you explain a little more? 
You mean recognition/perception?  In Chakku-vinnana-citta phassa-cetasika 
contacts visual object but recognition or perception is at later citta not at 
a vinnana-citta moment.

<<in 5 vinnana-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti,
in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each sanna
arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same object as
the citta.>>

Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not so clear what is the 
arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta.  In deep sleep we don't 
remember, (may be better say recall) anything but sanna still does it's 
function.

<<The attachment (degrees of lobha) they form lead to cetana, the intention 
to do something in order to repeat and possibly intensify the desired 
effects, which is a 
major paccaya: kamma paccaya.  Kamma paccaya in its turn can be 
categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya paccaya>>

Could u tell me what the different between anantarupanissaya-paccaya and 
asevana-paccaya?

<<Memory loss can also occur from emotional blockage in a 'normal' brain, 
couldn't it,>>

From what I have learned, emotion can both block or enhance specific memory. 
Like a person who was a victim in severe disastrous situation like a war, 
earthquake, bombing the building, some of them always get flashback or 
startle response when something remind them of their previous experience e.g. 
watching battle movie.

Another thing called false memory, in some people they have never had the 
experience or in the situation but if someone keep telling or suggesting them 
what might happen in the past, they then making up a false memory. 
Thanks for your input.

<<.  A friend's phone number can become a second
nature after we have been calling for a while.  I still
remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even
though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember (the
Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was
when I just learned how to drive.>>

This is a very complicated matter. Hard for me to cut.  Explicit is so 
explicit and procedural (implicit) is kind of second nature.  And when you 
put vitakka and vicara cetasika plus manasikara cetasika together, make me 
have to really think what exactly the function of each cetasika. Could you 
give me an explanation and/or analogy?  When we think, definitely sanna is a 
requirement. We thinking with word, vocabulary. Thinking is very automatic, 
we think all the time.   When we try to recall something, I think that is an 
intention, so cetana is also involved in that process. Are also 
vitakka-vicara with the intention to recall something?

I tried to look up the paccaya for thing like a tree. Mango seed always gives 
a mango tree.  Kamma has nothing to do with plant but genetic factor does 
contribute to the similarity and inheritance of tree.  I think I have read 
this somewhere in Tipitaka, and I could not come up the term.   As Kom 
mention not every phenomena is a result of kamma.  Like in case of diseases, 
not all of them are b/c previous kamma, I think.   Well, kamma is one of an 
acintita (unconjecturable) anyway.


<<Bis, encore, et merci infiniment!>>

Enchante.

Num





 
4239 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:26am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Saturday is tomorrow for you.  I don't think we have to wait
> that long to hear from Tan A. Sujin!
> 
> My explanation [waiting for correction from K. Amara/KS]
> from memory is that:


Dear K. Kom,

This is great, I hope you don't mind my asking a few question in 
preparation for tomorrow:


> 1) The 5-dvara vithi cittas (vipaka, kiriya, kusala or
> akusala) all experience paramatha dhamma [1 of the 7 rupas]
> that is still there (but rises before the vithi cittas
> themselves).
> 
> 2) The cittas of the same 5-dvara vithi (14, discounting
> bavangha) cognizes the same aramana.  The aramana doesn't
> change within the vithi.
> 
> 3) The javana cittas rising in the same 5-dvara vithi, if
> rising with Sati (satipatthana), can only cognizes 1 of the
> 7 rupas.


So the 7 (or less in specific cases) javana of the 5-dvara is where 
sati arises within the vithi, and since they are identical within the 
vithi except for their strength, each would have sati arising with it 
as well as have the same object which must still be extant at the time 
of their arising, am I right? 


> 4) The cittas of the same mano-dvara vithi (10 or 8 some
> time and some bhumi discounting the last 2) also cognizes
> only 1 aramana for the entire vithi, with the exception of
> the magga vithi where more than one aramanas are experienced
> in the vithi.
> 
> 5) The mano-dvara vithi rising after the 5-dvara vithi,
> after the bhavanga, also cognizes the same aramana [1 of 7
> rupas] as the 5-dvara vithi.  Although still cognizing
> paramatha aramana, the aramana in fact has already fallen
> (at least two citta-moments ago, counting the two necessary
> bhavangha).  This is the jist of the question that Howard
> brought up.  How could the aramana be paramatha unless
> something unless we are seeing a manifestation of sanna.
> Note that all the cittas within the mano-dvara vithi ALL
> rise with Vittaka (discounting some of the jhana cittas).


Therefore all mano dvara cita are thoughts (and memory since sanna 
arises with all citta, which is not the case of vittaka), is this what 
you are saying?  (In fact it makes things clearer to me.)  And of 
course thoughts can have anything as object, even pannatti.  Is that 
why the ongoing arising of the present arammana still considered the 
'present' arammana?  Because as it is happening right now before our 
eyes as we sit in front of the computer it also arises and falls away 
each fraction of the speed of light and we still see it as a 
continuous picture, even when there is thinking and bhavanga etc. 
interposing in countless numbers.  Only in theory and in the moments 
of nana would their true complete separation arise, first as 
separation of the sense and mind dvara in the first vipassana nana.  
Which forms the basis of further studies, leading to the experience of 
the arising and falling away of the arammana in the next levels of 
nana, as I see it.


> 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with the 5-dvara
> vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
> cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
> paramattha [one of the namas, since we already discount the
> rupas], the aramana again has alrady fallen at least 2
> citta-moments ago.  The aramana in such a vithi cannot be
> the namas rising in the same vithi (since the entire vithi
> cognizes the same aramana); therefore, the aramana in such a
> vithi must rise in a vithi preceding it.  Hence, except for
> nibhanna, citta can only cognizes nama that is no longer
> there.  The chracteristic experienced is still considered
> paramattha even if it is no longer there.


Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even within the vithi citta it 
cannot have fallen away during the process, could it?  And as it is 
not a rupa it could only arise through the mind, of course.  When you 
say 'The chracteristic experienced is still considered paramattha even 
if it is no longer there.' I would also think the speed of the arising 
and falling away is such that normally we do not see the 'no longer 
there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily life, which is why it 
is still 'considered paramattha', is that right?

Thanks, K. Kom, this enhances the fact that the speed at which it all 
happens makes us all live in a world of thoughts, of memory, at 17 
times the speed of light at least who can stop a citta from arising or 
'change' anything that has conditions to arise?  And who could ever 
fathom what it is all about and teach us about it but the Buddha and 
all the Buddha of the past?  Which is why the Dhamma merits careful 
consideration and respect and I thank all who teach me anything about 
it very much indeed.  Thanks especially for the explanations, will 
check with Tan A. and report if there are any differences. 

> K. Amara, I would also love to hear Tan A. Sujin's
> explanations of sanna and vittaka also.  I keep hearing from
> different dhama conversations something like this: when we
> "don't remember" something that we want to remember, it
> means Vitaka is not applying on the desired aramana.  There
> is sanna arising at every moment, but the rising sanna only
> marks the same aramana of the entire vithi even when we are
> not remembering.  That's why the conjecture about sanna
> marks, but vitakka remembers.  Note also that I make some
> differentiation between "marking" and "remembering",
> hopefully consistently across all the messages.

I will ask her about it, but as I see it and in my experience, the 
sanna is there but I have a very difficult time when it does not arise 
spontaneously (in a timely fashion) but when viriya arises with 
strength to think of the sanna, sometimes I can remember (names, 
numbers etc.).  

By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises with all mano dvara 
citta as well, doesn't it.  I'll try to remember to ask her tomorrow 
and report!

Thanks again,

Amara

 
4240 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:30am
Subject: Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear K. Amara et Al.
> > 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with
> > the 5-dvara
> > vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
> > cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
> > paramattha [one of the namas, since we already
> > discount the
> > rupas],

> 
> Looks like my counting is defective, like usual.  There are
> still other 21 rupas left that can be only experienced
> through the mano-vithi.  For each of these other 21 rupas, I
> am uncertain of when it rises and falls in relative to the
> "observing" citta.

Will add it to the list of questions for tomorrow!  I think this 
reminds me never to speculate in matters of the citta, no one could be 
as precise and thorough as the Buddha and one should always check the 
sources otherwise there will always be glitches in the picture as a 
whole.  It is an extremely difficult and intricate subject and one can 
see why it rarely is taught in samsara and will always be the first 
dhamma to disappear of all Buddhist teachings.  But it sure shows how 
things could never be controled, doesn't it!!!  I'm glad we still have 
the chance to learn it, and thanks to anyone who can teach me,

Anumodana to all who study,

Amara

 
4241 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:38am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not so clear what 
is the 
> arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta.  In deep sleep we 
don't 
> remember, (may be better say recall) anything but sanna still does 
it's 
> function.


Cher M. Num,

Apparently 'Citta is able to recognize in itself,' but at a different 
'khana', in its extreme speed.  

The sanna of the bhavanga recalls the arammana of the past life's 
marana sanna vithi, which never appears through any of the present 
life's six dvara, which is why when one is comatose or in a deep sleep 
one can't remember anything, it doesn't appear even through the mind 
dvara, (except in the rare cases of those who have the jhana to recall 
past lives).


> Could u tell me what the different between anantarupanissaya-paccaya 
and 
> asevana-paccaya?


Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to arise somewhere in the 
future.  Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for the same kind of 
citta to arise with the exact same arammana within the same vithi or 
process, I think.

Right, K. Kom?

A bientot!

Amara

 
4242 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 0:56pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear K. Num,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Num [mailto:Num]

> 1. During the 17 moments of citta, the rupa which
> has arisen still not yet
> fallen away.

If you mean the rupa aramana of which each of the vithi (14
out of 17) is cognizing...

>
> 2. Only dvi-panca-vinnana-citta has rupa as a
> direct arammana in all 17
> moments??

No, all cittas in the vithi have paramatha rupa as an
aramana.  The observation here is that not only the citta
cognizes paramatha dhamma, the dhamma has not yet fallen
away, unlike some cases.

>
> (2a) Dvi-panca-vinnana-citta, has the seven
> minimal universal cetasika. What
> does
> cetana cetasika, which is kamma-paccaya, do in
> all vipaka citta??

If you read NVG's Conditions:
http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf, you will see that Cetana
is a pacaya (conditioning) dhamma for many (paccayapunna?)
conditioned dhammas while it is there.  The most distinctive
pacaya of cetana, kamma pacaya, works in two different ways:
a) is saha-jata-kamma paccaya to all the co-arising namas;
it conditions by "telling" all other namas to complete its
functions.
b) is nana-kanika-kamma paccaya to future dhamma(s?); it
causes Vipaka dhammas to rise.

> (2b) what is an arammana for the first
> bhavanga-citta, atita-bhavaga??

The same aramana as the last life's marana-vithi cittas
(Khun Amara said this)!


>
> 3. Sati can have kusula or akusula as an
> arammana.  Sati cannot arise at the
> same moment with akusula but always with all
> kusula citta as a 19 universal
> sobhana-cetasika. Akusula citta can be an
> arammana for kusula citta as a
> arammana-paccaya but sati is able to be aware of
> akusula citta as an
> arammana of citta that sati coarises.

we agree so far.

> I think
> sati can be aware of only the
> present moment of current citta that sati
> coarises with???

If the sati is cognizing a nama, the nama cannot be any of
the namma that the sati is co-arising with: it can be only
namas that have already fallen.

kom

 
4243 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:26pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Kom,

It's great to see you so active on the list..you're
doing a great job!

I was using essence and sabhava interchangeably (I
think), also for this we can use 'nature' or even
'characteristic' perhaps.....the function would be
closely related as this would be an aspect but not
quite the same....infinitely small existence sounds
like a concept to me..yes? no? But p'haps when there
is understanding of the rise and fall of seeing we
could talk about knowledge of this, I'm not sure. What
do you think?

I have to confess that the term 'sabhava' is a very
new one for me and one that I'm only now becoming a
little more familiar with....so I'm on a learning
curve here. I've never discussed it with KS but will
doublecheck  when we get to Bkk over the May 1st long
w'end hopefully. (Rob, Teng, any chance of joining
then?)

Let me add a little more from that Vism ref I gave
yest. and then let me know if there are any good nits
to pick! Jim may have further comments too (here or
off-list if he prefers) and Jim, pls excuse my abuse
of Pali in the post..mixing sabhava and pneumonia and
not attempting to show diacritic symbols..;-(

sabhava...'..it is narrower than dhamma. It often
roughly corresponds to dhatu (element) and
lakkhana(characteristic), but less nearly to the
vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature), or
to rasa(function).  The Athasalani observes: 'it is
the individual essence, or the generality, of such and
such dhammas that is called their characteristic'
(DhsA.63); on which the Mula Tika comments: 'The
individual essence consisting in, say, hardness as
that of earth, or touching as that of contact, is not
common to all dhammas....'

Actually there's a lot of detail here and following
and if I had time I'd follow the cross refs too.

There is a note at the end that says the Sanskrit
equivalent, sabhava, had a 'great vogue and chequered
history in philosophical discusions on the Indian
mainland'. 

To my understanding, they couldn't poosibly have the
same meaning because Pali sabhava, essence is
inherently reflecting the anatta characteristic of the
reality whereas the Sanskrit one would be reflecting a
thing, a self, atta....

As I said, Kom, I'm just learning as I write.

Best rgds,
Sarah

p.s. in the list of names at the top, Des was meant to
be included too!


--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> In your passage to Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard,
> and Num,
> does "essence" refer to sabhava, functions,
> infinitely small
> existence, etc., or strictly sabhava?
> 
> Anumoddhana.
> 
> kom
> 




 
4244 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi Howard,

let's see if we can get this sorted out-

--- Howard wrote: 
> ==================================
>        It seems that you are using 'essence' here to
> mean little more than 
> lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have
> characteristics. But I 
> don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the
> same meaning as 
> 'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. 

Did the last quote from the Vism help? Sabhava,
essence, characteristic I'd use pretty interchangeably
and Vism says 'roughly corresponds to'..

Essence or own-being
> or self-nature or sabhava 
> is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by
> virtue of their being 
> impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. 

You are equating essence with self-nature which I'm
not. I fully u'stand where you come from on this and
it's not easy. i'm also aware that other (later?)
texts seem to conflict with the use of sabhava in the
early commentaries and Malindapanha. I think you could
just consider its use her as being close to
characteristic or lakkhana if that helps.
>At
> the same time, they have 
> characteristics, being conditioned. The
> unconditioned dhamma has no essence, 
> being an absence - the absence of all conditions,
> but, being empty of all 
> conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also
> without characteristic. This 
> is the way it seems to me.

When it comes to nibbana, I fully u'stand what you're
saying, but I start getting out of my depth, so I
think I'll pass to other more enlightened beings
here....just to repeat from the Vism..'Of nibbana,
which has its own individual essence, the mula Tika
says: 'Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of
its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of
consciousness alambitum) by one who has not realized
it...'

 >        If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having
> of a characteristic 
> feature, the only problem I have is that I think
> that is an odd usage for the 
> term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the
> having of a feature in an 
> essential, unconditional manner, then I have a
> bigger problem with it. 

I would say it means having an essential, conditioned
manner with very specific characteristics for an
instant and then gone.

For 
> example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But
> that non-fluidity is due 
> to various factors including crystalline stucture,
> temperature, and lack of 
> compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes
> in conditions, the 
> characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which
> point *we* no longer use 
> the word/concept 'ice').

I'd say, what we take for being the ice are a
collection of different rupas, each changing rapidly,
each consisting of an essenceor nature with
characteristics (eg temperature) for a miniscule
moment and then gone. As a result of eye base, seeing,
visible object, sanna, vitakka and many, many
conditions, the rupas appearing in the visible object
are taken for an ice, a thing, a substance....

Not sure this quite answers you.... but after sorting
out compassion, I'm sure we can tackle this one..!

My busy w'end is approaching fast, so pls excuse
delays for any replies....It's been great having so
much contact recently with you and Dan again....I
wonder what's happened to Bruce??? 

Rob, wasn't it April that michael J said he might
return?!

pls keep challenging me, Howard, as you really know
how to!!!

Sarah



 
4245 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> So the 7 (or less in specific cases) javana of
> the 5-dvara is where
> sati arises within the vithi, and since they are
> identical within the
> vithi except for their strength, each would have
> sati arising with it
> as well as have the same object which must still
> be extant at the time
> of their arising, am I right?

Yes, that would fit my understandings.

> Therefore all mano dvara cita are thoughts (and

They are not thoughts from the standpoint that some cognize
paramatha dhammas (nama or rupas), and when they cognize
paramattha dhamma, some (all except in magga-vithi?) cognize
paramattha dhammas that have already fallen away.  This is
the interesting part: a citta can cognize a paramatha
characteristic of a dhamma even when the cognized dhamma has
already fallen away (is not extant when the cognizing dhamma
is arising).

When I think of thoughts, I think of the namas cognizing a
pannatti aramana.  I am not sure if this convention is
commonly used.

> memory since sanna
> arises with all citta, which is not the case of
> vittaka), is this what
> you are saying?  (In fact it makes things clearer
> to me.)

There are also cittas in the 5-dvara vithi that rise with
vittaka, but these cittas clearly cognize extant paramatha
dhammas and can't be considered as thoughts (by my
definitions).

I can't really guess at how the cittas can cognize the
paramatha characteristic of a dhamma after it has fallen.
Using the memory theory works in some cases, but not in the
others.

ANALYSIS
========

Hypothesis:
H1) All co-arising namas cognize the same aramana
H2) Sanna marks (remembers its present aramana), and doesn't
really remember (recall past aramanas).

Working case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already-fallen rupa
[1 of 7, also experienced through the 5-dvara vithi.]

How it works:
While each of 5-dvara vithi citta is arising, sanna is
co-arising with the citta cognizing the paramatha rupa.  The
mano-dvara citta rising subsequently cognize the paramatha
dhamma as a result of the paramatha characteristics being
carried over from one nama to the next as a result of having
sanna.

Non-Working Case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already fallen
namas (a) in the previous vithi.
Why doesn't it work:
1) While (a) is rising, its co-arising sanna is not
cognizing the co-arising namas; it is cognizing what the
citta is cognizing, which is not the co-arising namas.  The
sanna is not marking the co-arising namas.
2) If sanna doesn't mark, how does the paramatha
characteristic of (a) be carried over to be experienced by
the subsequently rising namas?

The analysis' weakest point is my understading of how sanna
works (H2).

If I have to guess at why the namas can cognize paramatha
characteristic of something that is no longer there, I would
guess the ability to cognize is a function of the combined
(complex) pacayas leading to the cognition, and not just the
function fo the sanna alone.  Of course, I can use this
explanation to cover all risings/fallings of all dhammas
(except for nibhanna!).  Not very specific, maybe not very
helpful.

> And of
> course thoughts can have anything as object, even
> pannatti.  Is that
> why the ongoing arising of the present arammana
> still considered the
> 'present' arammana?

I think it is "present" because the citta still cognizes the
paramatha characteristic of a dhamma, even if the dhamma has
already fallen away.

> Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even
> within the vithi citta it
> cannot have fallen away during the process, could
> it?

No, it could not.

> And as it is
> not a rupa it could only arise through the mind,
> of course.

I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind.  I
think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize
nibbhana.

> When you
> say 'The chracteristic experienced is still
> considered paramattha even
> if it is no longer there.' I would also think the
> speed of the arising
> and falling away is such that normally we do not
> see the 'no longer
> there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily
> life,

Yes, probably why we have such strong atta tendencies.  And
which is why penetrating the falling of dhamma is a
high-level vipassana nana.

> which is why it
> is still 'considered paramattha', is that right?

I am still unsure about this part.  If I haven't covey this
already: I am not sure explicitly how the paramatha
characteristics are carried over to be experienced by later
namas.

> this enhances the fact that the
> speed at which it all
> happens makes us all live in a world of thoughts,
> of memory, at 17
> times the speed of light at least who can stop a
> citta from arising or
> 'change' anything that has conditions to arise?
> And who could ever
> fathom what it is all about and teach us about it
> but the Buddha and
> all the Buddha of the past?  Which is why the
> Dhamma merits careful
> consideration and respect and I thank all who
> teach me anything about
> it very much indeed.  Thanks especially for the
> explanations, will
> check with Tan A. and report if there are any
> differences.

Anumoddhana.

> By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises
> with all mano dvara
> citta as well, doesn't it.

This is from http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html

4. Viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that relentlessly
perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma.  It arises with 73
citta exempting 16 ahetuka-citta comprising 1
panca-dvaravajjana-citta, the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, 2
sampaticchanna-citta, and santirana-citta because these 16
citta perform their function without viriya-cetasika as
paccaya

If you remember, the 3 Santirana-citta also functions as
Tatalampana citta, which also rises in the mano-dvara vithi.
So the last two (if applicable) cittas in the mano-dvara
vithi rises without viriya.

kom

 
4246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi Num,

Have you got Nina VG's 'Cetasikas'? you'll find it
very helpful if not.

Here she quotes from the Atthasalani (1, Part 1V,
Ch1):

'perception has the characteristic of perceiving by an
act of general inclusion, and the function of making
marks as a condition for repeated perception (for
recognizing or remembering), as when woodcutters
'perceive' logs and so forth.  Its manifestation is
the action of interpreting by means of the sign as
apprehended, as in the case of blind persons who 'see'
an elephant. Or, it has briefness as manifestation,
like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate
the object. Its proximate cause is whatever object has
appeared, like tyhe perception which arises in young
deer mistaking scarecrows for men.'

Scarecrows are pretty old then! 

So sanna 'marks' and recognizes the object. As
discussed, it is a universal cetasika and arises with
every citta, Erik, (including kusala and akusala
according to the citta). 

As I mentioned, even if we are being 'forgetful',
there is still sanna marking the object, depending on
conditions what is marked.  

Num, I expect this has been answered by now as I'm
rather behind with my reading...the object of
patisandhi citta, cuti citta and bhavanga citta is the
same as the object experienced by javana cittas before
the last cuti citta of the previous life.

Num, vitakka and vicara don't arise with the
dvipancavinnanas and have different characteristics
from sanna, but what we conventionally called
recognition or memory would involve plenty of both and
a lot else besides! In very brief, vitakka has the
characteristic of 'directing the mind onto an object
(mounting the mind on its object) (Vism.). Again Nina
VG refers to the Atthasalani (Bk1, part 1V, Ch1, 114):

'This commentary uses a simile of someone who wants to
'ascend' the king's palace and depends on a relative
or friend dear to the king to chieve this.  In the
same way the citta which is accompanied by vitakka
depends on the latter in order to 'ascend' to the
object, to be directed to the object.  Vitakka leads
the citta to the object so that citta can cognize it.'

Num, hope this helps. Apologies if Kom or Amara have
already given you these details. Must run!!;-)

Sarah

--- Num wrote: > Hi again Kom and K.Amara,
> 
> Kom, what do you mean by "mark" the object. Could
> you explain a little more? 
> You mean recognition/perception?  In
> Chakku-vinnana-citta phassa-cetasika 
> contacts visual object but recognition or perception
> is at later citta not at 
> a vinnana-citta moment.
> 
> <<in 5 vinnana-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti,
> in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each
> sanna
> arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same
> object as
> the citta.>>
> 
> Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not
> so clear what is the 
> arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta.  In
> deep sleep we don't 
> remember, (may be better say recall) anything but
> sanna still does it's 
> function.
> 
> <<The attachment (degrees of lobha) they form lead
> to cetana, the intention 
> to do something in order to repeat and possibly
> intensify the desired 
> effects, which is a 
> major paccaya: kamma paccaya.  Kamma paccaya in its
> turn can be 
> categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya
> paccaya>>
> 
> Could u tell me what the different between
> anantarupanissaya-paccaya and 
> asevana-paccaya?
> 
> <<Memory loss can also occur from emotional blockage
> in a 'normal' brain, 
> couldn't it,>>
> 
> From what I have learned, emotion can both block or
> enhance specific memory. 
> Like a person who was a victim in severe disastrous
> situation like a war, 
> earthquake, bombing the building, some of them
> always get flashback or 
> startle response when something remind them of their
> previous experience e.g. 
> watching battle movie.
> 
> Another thing called false memory, in some people
> they have never had the 
> experience or in the situation but if someone keep
> telling or suggesting them 
> what might happen in the past, they then making up a
> false memory. 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> <<.  A friend's phone number can become a second
> nature after we have been calling for a while.  I
> still
> remember some phone number from some 10 years ago
> even
> though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember
> (the
> Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of
> driving was
> when I just learned how to drive.>>
> 
> This is a very complicated matter. Hard for me to
> cut.  Explicit is so 
> explicit and procedural (implicit) is kind of second
> nature.  And when you 
> put vitakka and vicara cetasika plus manasikara
> cetasika together, make me 
> have to really think what exactly the function of
> each cetasika. Could you 
> give me an explanation and/or analogy?  When we
> think, definitely sanna is a 
> requirement. We thinking with word, vocabulary.
> Thinking is very automatic, 
> we think all the time.   When we try to recall
> something, I think that is an 
> intention, so cetana is also involved in that
> process. Are also 
> vitakka-vicara with the intention to recall
> something?
> 
> I tried to look up the paccaya for thing like a
> tree. Mango seed always gives 
> a mango tree.  Kamma has nothing to do with plant
> but genetic factor does 
> contribute to the similarity and inheritance of
> tree.  I think I have read 
> this somewhere in Tipitaka, and I could not come up
> the term.   As Kom 
> mention not every phenomena is a result of kamma. 
> Like in case of diseases, 
> not all of them are b/c previous kamma, I think.  
> Well, kamma is one of an 
> acintita (unconjecturable) anyway.
> 
> 
> <<Bis, encore, et merci infiniment!>>
> 
> Enchante.
> 
> Num
> 


 
4247 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Cybele,

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> 
> Well I have good friends here but no one is English
> actually, I don't mean 
> offense but that's is the truth.
> Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-)
> But not coldblooded please!

All my friends are warm-blooded, especially the ones
on this list (INCLUDING Rob!!). Seriously, I'll try to
give you a few English contacts later off-list so you
can see for yourself! 

> 
> I told you that my brains were not palatable for the
> mental set up of this 
> group. ;-)

Your brains are very palatable and we need a good
mixture of dishes...Yours provide the delicacies that
Kom's and Erik's lack...;-)  (hope that's not
provocative!)

> You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but
> don't worry I understand 
> you are far too much busy.
> And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far
> and I don't count on  any 
> response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of
> coffee as I am Brazilian.

You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a
little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a
response..)
> 
> What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I
> cannot neither suppress 
> nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs
> altogether to my past 
> accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and
> try to develop 
> mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.
> Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed
> my viewpoint, therefore 
> difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the
> very concept of 
> 'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying
> frozen emotions and non 
> commitment in interactions of any kind.

You've got some good points here, Cybele! 
> 
> No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply
> 'understand ' - this 
> comment is just a further elaboration to explain it
> but is not the awareness 
> of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it
> intellectually a 
> posteriori.
> How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already
> passed, is just a memory, 
> is not present anymore.
> And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta
> and dukkha invites somehow 
> the right mental conditions for this understanding
> to arise in my experience 
> but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on
> many different factors.
> Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool
> and never improved 
> genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not,
> how could we 
> understanding anything at all?

Yes, what's gone is gone and it is only the present
understanding that is of any importance. I think I'll
pass on the strategies for now;-) I do agree though,
some tasty brains can be a good condition for
mindfulness... yum!
> 
> Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you
> call self or what we 
> can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of
> thought, emotions, 
> sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this
> understanding.
> Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far
> as I am aware or nama 
> rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is
> mindfulness.
> The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be
> uprooted so easily - this is 
> just thinking a wise conception of non self but you
> can experience it 
> directly only when the right conditions arises.

True, no easy up-rooting...and so easy to take
thinking for understanding. May I just add, PANNA or
rt understanding can experience it when the conditions
arise..

> Therefore understanding will be there and drop by
> drop will fill up the 
> mental container of wisdom but it's a very long
> process eradicating 
> ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of
> awakening can happen 
> anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement
> in that very moment are 
> overcome by awareness.

Excellent!;-)
> 
> We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant
> wishful thinking right now 
> Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial
> but we are seeking for it 
> DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in
> craving for results.
> But we have to focuse our minds on it so far.

Hmmmm.......;-(
 
> I like you too Sarah.
> It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so
> to speak - I am not ok 
> but that's ok. I can only endure.

I hope we can help on the list, Cybele and my
warm-hearted friends in London can too...
> 
> I am sure you are not starving around here...

No, these days, I'm very full and bloated most the
time! In fact my eyes are definitely bigger than my
mouth!
> 
 You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse
> oblige teasing 'gringos'. 
> ;-)

Keep it up, it does us all good!

> Best Wishes to you too
> pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong
> Kong otherwise I could 
> have met you.

Pls come again soon and I'd love to spend time with
you! I even have a friend who wants Italian lessons
here.
> And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators.

Me too, though I thought Erik's 'bullshit filters' was
rather good, but a little impolite for a respectable
list, don't you think?

Take good care of yourself, Cybele, and thank you for
the light relief after sabhavas and sannas! Pls do
ignore any of the brains that are too technical for
your taste-buds (including mine at times)!

Sarah


 
4248 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > When I think of thoughts, I think of the namas cognizing a
> pannatti aramana.  I am not sure if this convention is
> commonly used.


Dear K. Kom,

We differ here also, then, because to me it is when the citta thinks 
of anything at all whether pannatti or paramattha. 


> > memory since sanna
> > arises with all citta, which is not the case of
> > vittaka), is this what
> > you are saying?  (In fact it makes things clearer
> > to me.)
> 
> There are also cittas in the 5-dvara vithi that rise with
> vittaka, but these cittas clearly cognize extant paramatha
> dhammas and can't be considered as thoughts (by my
> definitions).
> 
> I can't really guess at how the cittas can cognize the
> paramatha characteristic of a dhamma after it has fallen.
> Using the memory theory works in some cases, but not in the
> others.
> 
> ANALYSIS
> ========
> 
> Hypothesis:
> H1) All co-arising namas cognize the same aramana
> H2) Sanna marks (remembers its present aramana), and doesn't
> really remember (recall past aramanas).

Another disagreement, it has to be able to recall past memory of 
things that it had marked otherwise it would not recognize it again, 
and we would never be able to tell what things are from past 
experiences.

> Working case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already-fallen rupa
> [1 of 7, also experienced through the 5-dvara vithi.]
> 
> How it works:
> While each of 5-dvara vithi citta is arising, sanna is
> co-arising with the citta cognizing the paramatha rupa.  The
> mano-dvara citta rising subsequently cognize the paramatha
> dhamma as a result of the paramatha characteristics being
> carried over from one nama to the next as a result of having
> sanna.
> 
> Non-Working Case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already fallen
> namas (a) in the previous vithi.
> Why doesn't it work:
> 1) While (a) is rising, its co-arising sanna is not
> cognizing the co-arising namas; it is cognizing what the
> citta is cognizing, which is not the co-arising namas.  The
> sanna is not marking the co-arising namas.
> 2) If sanna doesn't mark, how does the paramatha
> characteristic of (a) be carried over to be experienced by
> the subsequently rising namas?
> 
> The analysis' weakest point is my understading of how sanna
> works (H2).

To my mind it does both, it marks something which is 'new' to it and 
recognizes what it has already marked before.

> If I have to guess at why the namas can cognize paramatha
> characteristic of something that is no longer there, I would
> guess the ability to cognize is a function of the combined
> (complex) pacayas leading to the cognition, and not just the
> function fo the sanna alone.  Of course, I can use this
> explanation to cover all risings/fallings of all dhammas
> (except for nibhanna!).  Not very specific, maybe not very
> helpful.

Again here I believe that 'what is no longer there' has to still be 
arising and falling as the citta arise to experience it, either 
'parallel' or simultaneously to the citta in the case of the rupa, or 
alternately in the case of the nama to be experienced by sati.  For 
example the rupa that had fallen away three days ago would count only 
as memory, while the seeing or visible object would still be 
paramattha arammana of the present citta althogh in the case of the 
mano dvara the 'real' arammana has to have fallen away already, which 
still appears not to have since it has also arisen again and fallen 
away again in such rapid succession.

> > And of
> > course thoughts can have anything as object, even
> > pannatti.  Is that
> > why the ongoing arising of the present arammana
> > still considered the
> > 'present' arammana?
> 
> I think it is "present" because the citta still cognizes the
> paramatha characteristic of a dhamma, even if the dhamma has
> already fallen away.
> 
> > Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even
> > within the vithi citta it
> > cannot have fallen away during the process, could
> > it?
> 
> No, it could not.
> 
> > And as it is
> > not a rupa it could only arise through the mind,
> > of course.
> 
> I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind.  I
> think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize
> nibbhana.

Absolutely, my mistake, nibbana doesn't arise or fall away, and can be 
experienced only through the mano dvara.

> > When you
> > say 'The chracteristic experienced is still
> > considered paramattha even
> > if it is no longer there.' I would also think the
> > speed of the arising
> > and falling away is such that normally we do not
> > see the 'no longer
> > there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily
> > life,
> 
> Yes, probably why we have such strong atta tendencies.  And
> which is why penetrating the falling of dhamma is a
> high-level vipassana nana.
> 
> > which is why it
> > is still 'considered paramattha', is that right?
> 
> I am still unsure about this part.  If I haven't covey this
> already: I am not sure explicitly how the paramatha
> characteristics are carried over to be experienced by later
> namas.

Will see if we can clarufy this tomorrow


> > By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises
> > with all mano dvara
> > citta as well, doesn't it.
> 
> This is from http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html
> 
> 4. Viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that relentlessly
> perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma.  It arises with 73
> citta exempting 16 ahetuka-citta comprising 1
> panca-dvaravajjana-citta, the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, 2
> sampaticchanna-citta, and santirana-citta because these 16
> citta perform their function without viriya-cetasika as
> paccaya
> 
> If you remember, the 3 Santirana-citta also functions as
> Tatalampana citta, which also rises in the mano-dvara vithi.
> So the last two (if applicable) cittas in the mano-dvara
> vithi rises without viriya.

Thanks for the explanations, anumodana,

Amara

 
4249 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  Dear Mettajon,

Your very occasional posts and details are always very
helpful and well-researched. Hope to hear more!

Sarah

--- Metta Jon wrote: > A friend of mine
e-mailed me a few weeks ago, about
> Venerable 
> Dhammapiyo...it seems that he was asking for people
> to offer
> their definitions of the word "Tathagata".
> 
> When i am translating texts, or reading them to
> others, i usually
> substitute the word "Buddha" for "Tathagata", as i
> consider them
> to be virtually interchangeable.  But, if asked to
> define the word,
> that requires some thought.
> 
> Traditionally, it has been translated as "the One
> who has thus gone"
> or "the One who has thus come".  I take the former
> to mean "one who
> has gone beyone suffering" or "one who has gone to
> the Other Shore
> (Nibbana/Nirvana)."  I take the latter tradition to
> mean "one who has
> come to realization of Dhamma".
> 
> Some other translations i have seen are "Wayfarer"
> (which sounds odd
> to me), and "the Perfect One" which would sound
> egotistical to many
> ears....although one might define "Tathagatha" as
> "one who has thus
> come to perfection" (ie, one who has practiced the
> "Perfections"--
> the Paramis) and who has arrived at the culmination
> of that practice:
> namely, Buddhahood).
> 
> Just a few thoughts, for whatever they're worth.
> 
> Sukhita hotha,
> 
> Metta Jon 
> 



 
4250 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but
> > don't worry I understand 
> > you are far too much busy.
> > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far
> > and I don't count on  any 
> > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of
> > coffee as I am Brazilian.
> 
> You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a
> little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a
> response..)

Whoa! Sorry about that one, both of you. I meant to reply but got 
bogged down. I can't keep up with 50% of what I'd like to and have to 
pick & choose. I prefer coffee to tea anyway.

But, Cybele, I am no good at talking the language of experience 
except in specific situations, like X, Y, Z happened. I do not like 
using my own homegrown language for the Dharma, and prefer to stick 
to "by the book" interpretations and explanations. This is one reason 
I think it's very useful to study Abhidhamma. It gives a very precise 
context in which to put things. 

> Me too, though I thought Erik's 'bullshit filters' was
> rather good, but a little impolite for a respectable
> list, don't you think?

Impolite? I thought I was paying quite the compliment to everyone's 
respectability with that one!

 
4251 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:44pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:

Kom,

> I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind.  I
> think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize
> nibbhana.

A question that's bothered me some. How does the Abhidhamma account 
for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can "cognize" nibbana? 

Erik

 
4252 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Thanks for this post. The main thing I gain from it is the Theravadin 
commentarial sense of 'sabbhava' as being closer to 'lakkhana' than to 
essence or own-being. This pleases me! The Mahayanist use of the Sanskrit 
'svabhava' is to mean own-being/essence/self-nature, and is definitely 
substantialist in sense.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 3/23/01 1:05:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Sarah writes:


> Hi Howard,
> 
> let's see if we can get this sorted out-
> 
> --- Howard wrote: 
> > ==================================
> >        It seems that you are using 'essence' here to
> > mean little more than 
> > lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have
> > characteristics. But I 
> > don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the
> > same meaning as 
> > 'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. 
> 
> Did the last quote from the Vism help? Sabhava,
> essence, characteristic I'd use pretty interchangeably
> and Vism says 'roughly corresponds to'..
> 
> Essence or own-being
> > or self-nature or sabhava 
> > is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by
> > virtue of their being 
> > impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. 
> 
> You are equating essence with self-nature which I'm
> not. I fully u'stand where you come from on this and
> it's not easy. i'm also aware that other (later?)
> texts seem to conflict with the use of sabhava in the
> early commentaries and Malindapanha. I think you could
> just consider its use her as being close to
> characteristic or lakkhana if that helps.
> >At
> > the same time, they have 
> > characteristics, being conditioned. The
> > unconditioned dhamma has no essence, 
> > being an absence - the absence of all conditions,
> > but, being empty of all 
> > conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also
> > without characteristic. This 
> > is the way it seems to me.
> 
> When it comes to nibbana, I fully u'stand what you're
> saying, but I start getting out of my depth, so I
> think I'll pass to other more enlightened beings
> here....just to repeat from the Vism..'Of nibbana,
> which has its own individual essence, the mula Tika
> says: 'Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of
> its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of
> consciousness alambitum) by one who has not realized
> it...'
> 
> >        If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having
> > of a characteristic 
> > feature, the only problem I have is that I think
> > that is an odd usage for the 
> > term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the
> > having of a feature in an 
> > essential, unconditional manner, then I have a
> > bigger problem with it. 
> 
> I would say it means having an essential, conditioned
> manner with very specific characteristics for an
> instant and then gone.
> 
> For 
> > example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But
> > that non-fluidity is due 
> > to various factors including crystalline stucture,
> > temperature, and lack of 
> > compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes
> > in conditions, the 
> > characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which
> > point *we* no longer use 
> > the word/concept 'ice').
> 
> I'd say, what we take for being the ice are a
> collection of different rupas, each changing rapidly,
> each consisting of an essenceor nature with
> characteristics (eg temperature) for a miniscule
> moment and then gone. As a result of eye base, seeing,
> visible object, sanna, vitakka and many, many
> conditions, the rupas appearing in the visible object
> are taken for an ice, a thing, a substance....
> 
> Not sure this quite answers you.... but after sorting
> out compassion, I'm sure we can tackle this one..!
> 
> My busy w'end is approaching fast, so pls excuse
> delays for any replies....It's been great having so
> much contact recently with you and Dan again....I
> wonder what's happened to Bruce??? 
> 
> Rob, wasn't it April that michael J said he might
> return?!
> 
> pls keep challenging me, Howard, as you really know
> how to!!!
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4253 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi, Erik (and Kom) -

In a message dated 3/23/01 7:45:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erik writes:


> --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> 
> Kom,
> 
> > I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind.  I
> > think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize
> > nibbhana.
> 
> A question that's bothered me some. How does the Abhidhamma account 
> for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can "cognize" nibbana? 
> 
> Erik
> 
===============================
       In an excellent book (whose title escapes me, and I can't check at the 
moment), Peter Harvey gives considerable evidence from the Pali suttas to 
identify nibbana with "unmanifestive discernment (vi~n~nana)", that 
discernment likened to a radiance going all around, going on forever, without 
encountering an object (aramana). It is the unconditioned mode of awareness 
that is the absence of objects. If this is valid, then "cognizing" of nibbana 
is really more of  *becoming* of nibbana, by letting go of objects. Entry to, 
or cognizing of, nibbana would be a transition from presence of objects to 
absence of objects. (But not discerning objects would not be the same as 
unconsciousness either.)

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4254 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear howard,
the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following
to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39.
It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own
characteristics, thus they are dhammas."
The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas
devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose
of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures
devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities
as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere
misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be
discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas
(ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas
are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there
IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their
characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding,
the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical
device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known ,
acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas"

It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc.
this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an
independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in
complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so
fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the
change of dhammas.
robert
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Sarah -
> 
>        Thanks for this post. The main thing I gain from it is
> the Theravadin 
> commentarial sense of 'sabbhava' as being closer to 'lakkhana'
> than to 
> essence or own-being. This pleases me! The Mahayanist use of
> the Sanskrit 
> 'svabhava' is to mean own-being/essence/self-nature, and is
> definitely 
> substantialist in sense.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 



 
4255 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 6:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Erik

How it comes that you confront the subject about my IGNORED mail to you 
eluding it again?


Reply in the context:

>--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
>wrote:

CYBELE WROTE:
> > > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but
> > > don't worry I understand
> > > you are far too much busy.
> > > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far
> > > and I don't count on  any
> > > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of
> > > coffee as I am Brazilian.
SARAH REPLIED:
> > You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a
> > little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a
> > response..)

ERIC RESPONSE:
>Whoa! Sorry about that one, both of you. I meant to reply but got
>bogged down. I can't keep up with 50% of what I'd like to and have to
>pick & choose. I prefer coffee to tea anyway.

Then I suppose I was right dear Erik, you have chosen to IGNORE ME.
It means that I am not your 'cup of coffee' anyway it seems.
And means also that you are not so compassionate, don't you think that you 
are being discriminative with me?

>
>But, Cybele, I am no good at talking the language of experience
>except in specific situations, like X, Y, Z happened. I do not like
>using my own homegrown language for the Dharma, and prefer to stick
>to "by the book" interpretations and explanations. This is one reason
>I think it's very useful to study Abhidhamma. It gives a very precise
>context in which to put things.

Yes Erik but if you do not apply this precious teachings in your everyday 
opportunities of building up right understanding, what is the purpose of 
studying Dhamma?
The 'precise context' is real life, the present moment, here and now!
I am interested and commited with Dhamma to improve my knowledge and my 
knowledge can have significance only when there is foundation in REAL 
experience, otherwise we are only indulging in a vigorous intellectual 
exercize. Intellectual fun, dialetic pleasure. A very subtle, refined 
delusion but nevertheless delusion as my so-called, so-condemned passionate 
feelings. What changes?
Without experience in my viewpoint there is no genuine UNDERSTANDING, only 
brain twisting and intellectual enjoyment.
Practically we are just masturbating with life if you allow me the term.
Personally I prefer the real thing. In Dhamma as in private issues.
It's like tasting good Brazilian coffee and a surrogate.
I rather enjoy the 'original' taste of Dhamma: practice.
Therefore if you want to reconsider and take a mouthful of Brazilian coffee 
I am not running away. ;-)

Cybele



 
4256 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Sarah

>
>Dear Cybele,
>
>--- cybele chiodi  wrote: >
> >
> > Well I have good friends here but no one is English
> > actually, I don't mean
> > offense but that's is the truth.
> > Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-)
> > But not coldblooded please!
>
>All my friends are warm-blooded, especially the ones
>on this list (INCLUDING Rob!!).

I don't know about others friends in the list but I am very fond of Robert 
and I entirely agree that he is not the cold, aloof anglosaxon that is a 
role that he very  much likes to play sometimes. ;-)))


>Seriously, I'll try to
>give you a few English contacts later off-list so you
>can see for yourself!

Thank you I got your mail off list; but do you think that this people is not 
going to be perplexed when I call, out of nowhere jumping inside their 
lives?
I am in a 'bed WITHOUT breakfast' and the owner is an English man so aloof 
that we don't talk with each other but leave written messages to 
communicate...I am joking, we have completely different 'schedules'; however 
his fridge is warmer than him. :-)


> >
> > I told you that my brains were not palatable for the
> > mental set up of this
> > group. ;-)
>
>Your brains are very palatable and we need a good
>mixture of dishes...Yours provide the delicacies that
>Kom's and Erik's lack...;-)  (hope that's not
>provocative!)

I HOPE IT IS provocative!!!!!


>
> > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but
> > don't worry I understand
> > you are far too much busy.
> > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far
> > and I don't count on  any
> > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of
> > coffee as I am Brazilian.
>
>You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a
>little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a
>response..)

Well the response was that he intend to ignore my message anyway.


> >
> > What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I
> > cannot neither suppress
> > nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs
> > altogether to my past
> > accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and
> > try to develop
> > mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.
> > Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed
> > my viewpoint, therefore
> > difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the
> > very concept of
> > 'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying
> > frozen emotions and non
> > commitment in interactions of any kind.
>
>You've got some good points here, Cybele!


YESSS, dear Sarah we can bet I got!


> >
> > No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply
> > 'understand ' - this
> > comment is just a further elaboration to explain it
> > but is not the awareness
> > of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it
> > intellectually a
> > posteriori.
> > How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already
> > passed, is just a memory,
> > is not present anymore.
> > And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta
> > and dukkha invites somehow
> > the right mental conditions for this understanding
> > to arise in my experience
> > but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on
> > many different factors.
> > Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool
> > and never improved
> > genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not,
> > how could we
> > understanding anything at all?
>
>Yes, what's gone is gone and it is only the present
>understanding that is of any importance. I think I'll
>pass on the strategies for now;-) I do agree though,
>some tasty brains can be a good condition for
>mindfulness... yum!

I like your brains but your heart is much more tasty for me!


> >
> > Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you
> > call self or what we
> > can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of
> > thought, emotions,
> > sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this
> > understanding.
> > Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far
> > as I am aware or nama
> > rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is
> > mindfulness.
> > The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be
> > uprooted so easily - this is
> > just thinking a wise conception of non self but you
> > can experience it
> > directly only when the right conditions arises.
>
>True, no easy up-rooting...and so easy to take
>thinking for understanding. May I just add, PANNA or
>rt understanding can experience it when the conditions
>arise..

Ok I surrender to Panna and is reminds me something tasty as well; panna in 
Italian is whipped cream....lobha, lobha, hhmmm!
Can we have 'lust' for right understanding? ;-)


>
> > Therefore understanding will be there and drop by
> > drop will fill up the
> > mental container of wisdom but it's a very long
> > process eradicating
> > ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of
> > awakening can happen
> > anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement
> > in that very moment are
> > overcome by awareness.
>
>Excellent!;-)

I am glad my brains are still functioning even with 'disgraceful passions' 
entangling my mind! ;-)


> >
> > We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant
> > wishful thinking right now
> > Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial
> > but we are seeking for it
> > DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in
> > craving for results.
> > But we have to focuse our minds on it so far.
>
>Hmmmm.......;-(
>
> > I like you too Sarah.
> > It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so
> > to speak - I am not ok
> > but that's ok. I can only endure.
>
>I hope we can help on the list, Cybele and my
>warm-hearted friends in London can too...

You and Rob and Bhante are helping me a lot and Num is very nice with me. I 
do not complain my 'list-kamma'.
I don't care about quantity but quality!


> >
> > I am sure you are not starving around here...
>
>No, these days, I'm very full and bloated most the
>time! In fact my eyes are definitely bigger than my
>mouth!

Don't get a brain congestion!


> >
>  You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse
> > oblige teasing 'gringos'.
> > ;-)
>
>Keep it up, it does us all good!

Glad that you can be humorous about it.


>
> > Best Wishes to you too
> > pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong
> > Kong otherwise I could
> > have met you.
>
>Pls come again soon and I'd love to spend time with
>you! I even have a friend who wants Italian lessons
>here.


Hope the right conditions arises and I can return there soon.
And start a classe of Italian/Brazilian language to warm up all the 
expatriates! Better a classe of samba or lambada, promise if that doesn't 
warm them up I am going to feel an utter failure!


> > And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators.
>
>Me too, though I thought Erik's 'bullshit filters' was
>rather good, but a little impolite for a respectable
>list, don't you think?

Well we could read it as 'mind purification' in another key!

>
>Take good care of yourself, Cybele, and thank you for
>the light relief after sabhavas and sannas! Pls do
>ignore any of the brains that are too technical for
>your taste-buds (including mine at times)!
>
>Sarah
>

Yes I do ignore them Sarah, don't worry and what resonates inside me I 
appreciate as well.

Cybele

 
4257 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Robert -


In a message dated 3/23/01 12:03:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> Dear howard,
> the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following
> to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39.
> It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own
> characteristics, thus they are dhammas."
> The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas
> devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose
> of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures
> devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities
> as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere
> misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be
> discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas
> (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas
> are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there
> IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their
> characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding,
> the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical
> device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known ,
> acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas"
> 
> It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc.
> this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an
> independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in
> complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so
> fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the
> change of dhammas.
> robert
> 
======================================
       Excellent, Robert! Thank you for this. I particularly perked up at 
"And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their 
characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition 
makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. ... " This lack of real 
distinction between dhammas and their lakkhanas is one of the points made by 
by Nagarjuna! Small world, huh? At least the  world of Buddhist ideas is 
smaller than might seems at first glance.

With metta,
Howard



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



4258 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 2:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  I thought this might help, Howard. As Erik mentioned a common
criticism of Abhidhamma is that it posits little self-existing
entities but as we see this is not the case. Even though some
people study abhidhamma and may slant towards this idea the
actual Theravada position is more sublime. We talk about
'moments'; and this is useful to explain some aspects but if we
have an idea of a moment in an 'atomic model' sense this is
wrong. It is like when we study chemistry - the teacher explains
about atoms and it sounds like they are solid tiny balls - but
not so in fact.

I think of all the Abhidhamma the last book- the Patthana is the
most important - because it details the varieties of conditions
that work in complex ways for even one 'moment' to arise. It is
very hard to study yet when we relate it to daily life- i.e. to
namas and rupas arising now - it can be seen that this is the
way things are. Even the level of considering and seeing this at
a basic level - well before vipassana-nana - has quite an effect
on the clinging to self. And more than that if it is done with a
clear view of purpose - to condition more understanding of the
present moment- then it should lead to gradual direct insight.
(Or so it seems to me)
robert
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
> 
> In a message dated 3/23/01 12:03:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Robert Kirkpatrick writes:
> 
> 
> > Dear howard,
> > the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the
> following
> > to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39.
> > It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their
> own
> > characteristics, thus they are dhammas."
> > The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no
> dhammas
> > devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the
> purpose
> > of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific
> natures
> > devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such
> entities
> > as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere
> > misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be
> > discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas
> > (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these
> dhammas
> > are discovered as actually real actualties. And although
> there
> > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their
> > characteristics, still, in order to facilitate
> understanding,
> > the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical
> > device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known ,
> > acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas"
> > 
> > It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence
> etc.
> > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an
> > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in
> > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so
> > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to
> the
> > change of dhammas.
> > robert
> > 
> ======================================
>        Excellent, Robert! Thank you for this. I particularly
> perked up at 
> "And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these
> dhammas and their 
> characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding,
> the exposition 
> makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. ... " This
> lack of real 
> distinction between dhammas and their lakkhanas is one of the
> points made by 
> by Nagarjuna! Small world, huh? At least the  world of
> Buddhist ideas is 
> smaller than might seems at first glance.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 


 
4259 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 5:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Mike, and Dan
Dan: Sounds like it's been a very uncomfortable few
days.  Hope you're feeling much better now.

[My comments below are not meant as a reflection on
Dan's original post - simply on Mike's remarks]

>   I would have said, 'mindfulness
> keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> understanding?  

You are exactly right about past-cultivated
conditions.  Mindfulness cannot arise because we
decide to focus on realities or a characteristec of
realities.

Only mindfulness established to a very high degree can
keep arising.  This is apparent from the references in
the suttas to those who attain enlightenment - they
are often described in the period prior to their
attainment as being one for whom mindfulness is well
established.  

Nowadays it is not uncommon to hear or read about this
degree of mindfulness in terms that suggest it is
within reach for those who have the determination. 
This ignores the role of past-cultivated conditions.

> Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> THINK).  I find this makes illness much more
> bearable,
> too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is
> practice
> of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> paññati?  (This is not a rhetorical question).  If
> it
> is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> (seemingly) intermingled?

This is a perceptive observation.  Even though
reflection on, say, the impermanence of things may
bring 'insights', it is still only a kind of thinking,
and not necessarily kusala.  I say not necesarily
kusala because this cannot be assumed simply from the
subject matter of the thinking.  Even the person him
or her-self will only know the answer if he or she has
developed panna of the level that knows kusala from
akusala.

jon


 
4260 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:02:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia
Dear Robert,
I just like to add that in mahayana every dhamma is without sabhava including nibbana.They started since  nagajurna theory --since every things is condition ,it must be without sabhava of their own......
From Teng Kee




> Dear howard,
> the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following
> to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39.
> It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own
> characteristics, thus they are dhammas."
> The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas
> devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose
> of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures
> devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities
> as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere
> misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be
> discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas
> (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas
> are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there
> IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their
> characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding,
> the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical
> device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known ,
> acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas"
> 
> It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc.
> this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an
> independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in
> complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so
> fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the
> change of dhammas.
> robert
> --- Howard wrote:
> > Hi, Sarah -
> > 
> >        Thanks for this post. The main thing I gain from it is
> > the Theravadin 
> > commentarial sense of 'sabbhava' as being closer to 'lakkhana'
> > than to 
> > essence or own-being. This pleases me! The Mahayanist use of
> > the Sanskrit 
> > 'svabhava' is to mean own-being/essence/self-nature, and is
> > definitely 
> > substantialist in sense.
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 

 
4261 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:42pm
Subject: Sat. ED. report

 
  Dear K. Kom et al.

The arammana of the citta is as we discussed, one of the seven that 
has not fallen away, through the five dvara, and past arammana that is 
still continuing to arise and fall away and appearing as the present 
moment, such as visible object and seeing at this instant.  As Sukin 
remarked today, we are learning that in fact there is only the past.  
And at at least 17 times the speed of light, how could there be 
anything else, more importantly, how could anything, including the 
citta, be 'controled' once there are conditions for it to happen?  The 
only way is to accumulate conditions for the right things to arise.  

About sanna, it is memory, it both memorizes and recalls what it has 
marked.

Vitakka is not only thought, however, as it arises with all citta 
except the 10 dvi panca vinnana (5 senses, kusala and akusala citta) 
and the jhana citta higher than the first jhana citta.  Depending on 
the strength of the vitakka cetasika, it could just 'touch' or deeply 
'examine' the object of the citta, as in 'applied thinking'.

Sanna marks what it does not know for further recognition afterwards. 
 It arises with all citta as imperceptible as well as strong sanna.  

(K. Num, one interesting example is the 'subconscious' which is used 
in witness examination, such as some years ago in Israel when there 
was a bombing on a bus.  The police used hypnotism on the witnesses 
who came up with the exact description of the perpetrators they could 
not remember from emotional stress.  Shows how much we all live in a 
world of thoughts, don't you think?)

TA. Sujin remarks that the cetasika arise together and perform 
different functions depending on the kind of citta and the strength of 
the cetasika at each instant.  

For example without the phassa nothing at all can be experienced.  But 
as I understood it the cetana that arises with the ahetuka citta only 
helps the citta do its duty, unlike when it is strong enough to be 
kusala or akusala and function as kamma paccaya.  Vitakka that arises 
with all other citta than the mano dvara would probably not count as 
'thought' as K. Kom already pointed out.  But as the reality that 
touches and examines the object it is indeed thought, and even 
'applied thought' as in some translations.  Sanna at its weakest would 
be imperceptible, in its strongest would be able to remember or recall 
the most 'difficult' objects.

One important point she stressed is that to study the cetasikas, one 
must see what kinds of citta (jati and type of citta) they arise with 
also, to see the function they perform more clearly.  One must also 
check the book study with the present citta as much as one is able.  
For example at present there is lobha arising to be attached to 
various objects, must there be miccha ditthi arising as well?  Whereas 
while there is performance of akusala, can there be samma ditthi?

One will read several definitions of the same cetasika, but one must 
understand what it arises to do what function, to be able to 
understand its true nature.  Or something to that effect.  

Perhaps Sukin and Betty could add something I forgot or clarify 
something further?

Thanks in advance,

Amara




 
4262 From: <> 
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:50pm
Subject: Re: Human State

 
  Hi,


The Buddha said that the human state is the best (os is it ONLY??) 
state for achieving enlightenment (do you have the Sutta reference 
handy?)
 
No sex, no babies, no human state. In this sense, isn't having 
children an act of compassion to all living beings?

 
4263 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  Dear all,

A little additional precision:

The sati could never know the citta it arises with, I think a good 
analogy (adapted from Sukin's) would be the tip of your index finger, 
which could touch anything but itself.

Also the following:

> The arammana of the citta is as we discussed, one of the seven that 
> has not fallen away, through the five dvara, and past arammana that 
is 
> still continuing to arise and fall away and appearing as the present 
> moment, such as visible object and seeing at this instant. 

should read, +...through the mano dvara.

 As Sukin 
> remarked today, we are learning that in fact there is only the past. 
+...through the mano dvara. 
 
Have fun with all this,

Amara

 
4264 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Human State

 
  > The Buddha said that the human state is the best (os is it ONLY??) 
> state for achieving enlightenment (do you have the Sutta reference 
> handy?)
>  
> No sex, no babies, no human state. In this sense, isn't having 
> children an act of compassion to all living beings?

Still stuck in this level, are you?

Have you reached enlightenment?  Can you guarantee that the children 
you will produce, say even without sex, by cloning millions of 
yourself would be able to gain any level of Buddhist wisdom?  Why 
don't you start by attaining enlightened so you could help yourself 
first before being so 'compassioate'?!?

 
4265 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:19am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to
> arise somewhere in the
> future.  Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for
> the same kind of
> citta to arise with the exact same arammana
> within the same vithi or
> process, I think.
>
This is from Nina's conditions:

Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to
nåma, namely
to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas.
Javana-cittas are
kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With
regard to cittas of
the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven
javana-cittas
in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti,
kusala,
akusala or kiriya. The first javana-citta conditions the
second javana-citta
by repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, thus, the first
javana-citta
is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second
one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After
that
the second javana-citta which is in its turn the
conditioning dhamma,
conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh
javana-citta which
does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it
is the last
javana-citta.

Note that Asevana paccaya dhamma must be javana.  This
restriction would restrict tatalamppana from being asevana
even though the next citta may be tatalamppana (the same
type, but not javana).

kom

 
4266 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:29am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Erik,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 
>
> A question that's bothered me some. How does the
> Abhidhamma account
> for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can
> "cognize" nibbana?
>
> Erik
>

I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara)
cognizes Nibanna (asankhara).  However, I note that Citta
also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all,
which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no
conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall).

kom

 
 
4267 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 3/24/01 1:23:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> I thought this might help, Howard. As Erik mentioned a common
> criticism of Abhidhamma is that it posits little self-existing
> entities but as we see this is not the case. Even though some
> people study abhidhamma and may slant towards this idea the
> actual Theravada position is more sublime. We talk about
> 'moments'; and this is useful to explain some aspects but if we
> have an idea of a moment in an 'atomic model' sense this is
> wrong. It is like when we study chemistry - the teacher explains
> about atoms and it sounds like they are solid tiny balls - but
> not so in fact.
> 
> I think of all the Abhidhamma the last book- the Patthana is the
> most important - because it details the varieties of conditions
> that work in complex ways for even one 'moment' to arise. It is
> very hard to study yet when we relate it to daily life- i.e. to
> namas and rupas arising now - it can be seen that this is the
> way things are. Even the level of considering and seeing this at
> a basic level - well before vipassana-nana - has quite an effect
> on the clinging to self. And more than that if it is done with a
> clear view of purpose - to condition more understanding of the
> present moment- then it should lead to gradual direct insight.
> (Or so it seems to me)
> robert
> 
==========================
       Again I thank you! You do, indeed, know how to discuss Abhidhamma with 
a "ringer" (as Erik half-jokes) such as me! ;-)) 
       BTW, Ven Nyanaponika also made much of the Patthana in emphasizing 
that the Abhidhamma Pitaka, itself, is not substantialist. Kalupahana also 
defends the Abhidhamma Pitaka, though not all the commentaries, against the 
charge of substantialism.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4268 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:44am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear Erik,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 
> This is interesting. I never knew this. I had
> assumed that sanna was
> a neutral in terms of kusala/akusala.

Sanna is counted among the "annasamana" cetasikas.
Annasamana cetasikas have the same jati (kusala, akusala,
kiriya, and vipaka) as the co-arising citta (and cetasikas).
If the citta is kusala, then sanna (and other annasamana
cetasikas) must be kusala.

So the categories of cetasikas are:
1) Annasamana (13) (7 rising with all kinds of cittas)
2) Akusala (14) (rising with 12 kinds of cittas only)
3) Sobhana (25) (kusala vipaka, kiriya, and kusala)

kom

 
4269 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:53am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Kom, 

Thanks for another correction, yes, asevaba has to be the in the same 
vithi and not including the tadalambana.

So in fact K. Num is right, where is the difference?

Amara

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Amara 
> >
> > Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to
> > arise somewhere in the
> > future.  Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for
> > the same kind of
> > citta to arise with the exact same arammana
> > within the same vithi or
> > process, I think.
> >
> This is from Nina's conditions:
> 
> Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to
> nåma, namely
> to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas.
> Javana-cittas are
> kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With
> regard to cittas of
> the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven
> javana-cittas
> in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti,
> kusala,
> akusala or kiriya. The first javana-citta conditions the
> second javana-citta
> by repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, thus, the first
> javana-citta
> is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second
> one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After
> that
> the second javana-citta which is in its turn the
> conditioning dhamma,
> conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh
> javana-citta which
> does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it
> is the last
> javana-citta.
> 
> Note that Asevana paccaya dhamma must be javana.  This
> restriction would restrict tatalamppana from being asevana
> even though the next citta may be tatalamppana (the same
> type, but not javana).
> 
> kom

 
4270 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sat. ED. report

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/24/01 7:50:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> About sanna, it is memory, it both memorizes and recalls what it has 
> marked.
> 
                                                  .
                                                  .
                                                  .


> 
> Sanna marks what it does not know for further recognition afterwards. 
> It arises with all citta as imperceptible as well as strong sanna.  
> 
> 
===================================
       I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na, but I had thought there 
was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a role in the formation of 
percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular features of current experience, 
driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking" them as a kind of mental 
package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual unit. I suspect that my 
understanding here is only partially correct, and I would appreciate 
clarification.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


4271 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:03am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for clearing this up.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah]
>
> Hi, Kom,
>
> ....infinitely small existence sounds
> like a concept to me..yes? no? But p'haps when there
> is understanding of the rise and fall of seeing we
> could talk about knowledge of this, I'm not sure. What
> do you think?

My model basically says each dhamma has other
characteristics (and functions) beyond what we experience.
We may be experiencing one of the tri-lakkhanas (not me!),
say dukkha, but on the other hand, we could have been
experiencing the anatta characteristic of the "same" dhamma.
In this sense, a dhamma existence is beyond the
characteristic that we experience.  The fact (or the
misguided facts?) that each dhamma has infinitely small
existence is totally conceptual to me.  I do not experience
the dhamma rising nor falling, but am inclined to think so.

kom

 
4272 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:06am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> Dear K. Kom, 
> 
> Thanks for another correction, yes, asevaba has to be the in the 
same 
> vithi and not including the tadalambana.
> 
> So in fact K. Num is right, where is the difference?
> 
> Amara

Dear K. Kom,

Sorry for the confusion, is it in the correct order of the next citta 
to arise, isn't it?  This would be where the tadalambana would follow 
the javana as well? 

A. 


> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amara 
> > >
> > > Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to
> > > arise somewhere in the
> > > future.  Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for
> > > the same kind of
> > > citta to arise with the exact same arammana
> > > within the same vithi or
> > > process, I think.
> > >
> > This is from Nina's conditions:
> > 
> > Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to
> > nåma, namely
> > to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas.
> > Javana-cittas are
> > kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With
> > regard to cittas of
> > the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven
> > javana-cittas
> > in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti,
> > kusala,
> > akusala or kiriya. The first javana-citta conditions the
> > second javana-citta
> > by repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, thus, the first
> > javana-citta
> > is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second
> > one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After
> > that
> > the second javana-citta which is in its turn the
> > conditioning dhamma,
> > conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh
> > javana-citta which
> > does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it
> > is the last
> > javana-citta.
> > 
> > Note that Asevana paccaya dhamma must be javana.  This
> > restriction would restrict tatalamppana from being asevana
> > even though the next citta may be tatalamppana (the same
> > type, but not javana).
> > 
> > kom

 
4273 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:18am
Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  > > About sanna, it is memory, it both memorizes and recalls what it 
has 
> > marked.
> > 
>                                                   .
>                                                   .
>                                                   .
> 
> 
> > 
> > Sanna marks what it does not know for further recognition 
afterwards. 
> > It arises with all citta as imperceptible as well as strong sanna. 
 
> > 
> > 
> ===================================
>        I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na, but I had 
thought there 
> was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a role in the 
formation of 
> percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular features of current 
experience, 
> driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking" them as a kind 
of mental 
> package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual unit. I suspect 
that my 
> understanding here is only partially correct, and I would appreciate 
> clarification.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard


Dear Howard,

From what I understand, sanna never arises alone, and normally vitakka 
plays an important role in recalling by giving some objects of sanna 
particular importance by thinking of it often, therefore the memory is 
more easily recalled than those that happen 'automatically' millions 
of times each hour, where ekaggata, vitakka and vicara does not focus, 
'touch/apply thinking' and 'sustain thinking' on it too strongly, for 
example.  

Does this help?

Amara

 
4274 From: mike nease 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Silaa, Daana & Bhavana

 
  Dear Friends,

Happy Uposatha.  I recall that somewhere in AIDL (I think) Nina 
writes that right speech only occurs with regard to silaa, daana or 
bhavana.  I don't recall running across this in the Suttanta or the 
Vinaya.  Can anyone cite the source of this?

Thanks in advance.

mike

 
4275 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:38am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:54 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna
>

> asevaba has
> to be the in the same
> vithi and not including the tadalambana.
>

Asevana has to be in the same Javana vithi.  Anantara (and
anantarupa-nissaya) doesn't have to be.  For example, the
last Javana citta within a vithi is NOT asevana pacaya to
the tatalamppanna (or bhavanga), but IS ananatara pacaya to
the tatalamppanna.  In fact, anantara pacaya dhamma and its
paccayubanna dhamma doesn't have to be in the same vithi or
in the same life.  The last talampanna (a vithi citta) is
anantara pacaya to
the bhavanga (not a vithi citta).

I think the other question K. Num has is, if Anantara
paccaya and anantarupanissaya pacaya are pretty much the
same, why call them differently?  I am afraid I will have to
pass this one!  (On the other hand, we call a kind of
paramatha dhamma so many ways, maybe to increase the chance
of learning one way while we can't learn in the other?)

kom

 
4276 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:44am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> Sorry for the confusion, is it in the correct
> order of the next citta
> to arise, isn't it?  This would be where the
> tadalambana would follow
> the javana as well?

This would be the other pacaya: samantara paccaya.  We note
again here that the paccaya dhammas and pacayubanna dhammas
for samantara paccaya and anatara paccaya are the same.  In
A. Santi's explanation, samantara paccaya and anatara are
the same kind of pacaya.  I am personally not convinced, but
I am just passing on what I heard...

kom

 
4277 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:54am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Kom,

Just for the papanca of it, could we say that:

Anatara: immediate cause and continuation;

Samanantara: immediate cause and continuation in the right order, no 
skipping around;

Samanantarupa: the above, with the same (arammana) vithi + tadalambana

Asevana: the above, within the same javana vithi period.

How's that, just for fun?  Next week I'll try to remember to follow 
this up.

Amara

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Amara 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:54 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna
> >
> 
> > asevaba has
> > to be the in the same
> > vithi and not including the tadalambana.
> >
> 
> Asevana has to be in the same Javana vithi.  Anantara (and
> anantarupa-nissaya) doesn't have to be.  For example, the
> last Javana citta within a vithi is NOT asevana pacaya to
> the tatalamppanna (or bhavanga), but IS ananatara pacaya to
> the tatalamppanna.  In fact, anantara pacaya dhamma and its
> paccayubanna dhamma doesn't have to be in the same vithi or
> in the same life.  The last talampanna (a vithi citta) is
> anantara pacaya to
> the bhavanga (not a vithi citta).
> 
> I think the other question K. Num has is, if Anantara
> paccaya and anantarupanissaya pacaya are pretty much the
> same, why call them differently?  I am afraid I will have to
> pass this one!  (On the other hand, we call a kind of
> paramatha dhamma so many ways, maybe to increase the chance
> of learning one way while we can't learn in the other?)
> 
> kom

 
4278 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/24/01 12:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear Howard,
> 
> From what I understand, sanna never arises alone, and normally vitakka 
> plays an important role in recalling by giving some objects of sanna 
> particular importance by thinking of it often, therefore the memory is 
> more easily recalled than those that happen 'automatically' millions 
> of times each hour, where ekaggata, vitakka and vicara does not focus, 
> 'touch/apply thinking' and 'sustain thinking' on it too strongly, for 
> example.  
> 
> Does this help?
> 
--------------------------------------------
Howard:
       A bit. ;-) Thanks.
-------------------------------------------

> Amara
> 
========================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4279 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:04am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > > Sorry for the confusion, is it in the correct
> > order of the next citta
> > to arise, isn't it?  This would be where the
> > tadalambana would follow
> > the javana as well?
> 
> This would be the other pacaya: samantara paccaya.  We note
> again here that the paccaya dhammas and pacayubanna dhammas
> for samantara paccaya and anatara paccaya are the same.  In
> A. Santi's explanation, samantara paccaya and anatara are
> the same kind of pacaya.  I am personally not convinced, but
> I am just passing on what I heard...


Dear K. Kom, 

Checking it against the 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya', and if I remmber 
K. Sujin's explanations, they apply to the same realities, but from 
different angles, the first being immediate cause and the second the 
order, but in the analysis above the anantarupa would be with the same 
arammana as well, whereas the asevana is uniquely in the same javana, 
don't you think that's possible?  Sorry I'm very bad with names and 
numbers!  But I think there must be a valid reason for this precise 
classification.

A.

Amara

 
4280 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:06am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Amara,


> -----Original Message-----
> Just for the papanca of it, could we say that:

Yes, pannatti indeed.  I think papanca is supposed to
hinder, I am not sure if the understanding of pacaya dhamma
hinders (yet!).  Maybe trying too much to understand is!

> Anatara: immediate cause and continuation;
>
> Samanantara: immediate cause and continuation in
> the right order, no
> skipping around;
>
> Samanantarupa: the above, with the same
> (arammana) vithi + tadalambana

This one (Samananatarupa) I haven't heard about yet.  No
opinion here.

>
> Asevana: the above, within the same javana vithi period.
>

kom

 
4281 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:29am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > > Samanantarupa: the above, with the same
> > (arammana) vithi + tadalambana
> 
> This one (Samananatarupa) I haven't heard about yet.  No
> opinion here.


Dear K. Kom,

I don't think I can get too too serious about this, especially since 
it is said to be one of the 'imponderables', a good excuse!  So for me 
probably just papanca, proliferation in all directions.  Pannatti too, 
obviously, because we are using language to communicate.  

Sorry about the spelling of anantarupanissaya-paccaya, I added the S 
inadvertantly.  You know anantarupanissaya-paccaya of course:

(quote from '24 paccaya'):  The same applies to 
anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last 
lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next 
lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi.  The 
last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or 
bhavanga to arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya. (end quote)

Signing off for now, til tomorrow, my friends,

Amara

 
 
4282 From: Alex T 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 3:36am
Subject: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear friends,

   After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to 
understand how the observing consciousness works.

   Thank you.

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
4283 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:12am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  --- lots of people wrote lots of things:

Hi this is Herman. I have trouble forwarding my emails from work to 
home, so I have acessed the list via other means, and this will come 
from a different place then normal, and I have no idea what name it 
will appear under. Anyway, it's from Herman.

Sorry to those people that I have not replied to. I try and get to 
the list as often as I can. If I do not reply or am not involved for 
a while it is because I am otherwise occupied.

Cybele, your post to and re Erik prompted the following thoughts:

A man sat on the beach. He drew a line in the sand. He 
shouted "Eureka" and spoke loudly and at length to himself about his 
inspiration. The world was obviously divided into left and right 
world. All things on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to 
the right was on his left hand were inherently different to all 
things that were on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to 
the left was on his right hand. And so on.

A hot-blooded, passionate, and cheeky person :-), seated nearby, 
noted there was no line. The rising sea had erased the line long ago.

There are no real lines, no real divisions. The semblance arises by 
investment, identification. All line-drawing, all discursive thought 
is craving for self. Each moment reflecting the non-real is a moment 
lost.

There is bliss and tranquility.

Enjoy ! :-)


Herman

 
4284 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Herman

I am for non boundaries and no divisions and I agree that our compulsive 
need to create this fake orderliness is an attempt to control what by 
intrinsec nature cannot be controlled.
And I am glad that you caught the point I was trying to enhance, that all 
this analyzing life is wasting life; life is not to be rationalized but to 
be experienced as much mindfully as we can manage to in that precise moment. 
All this energy canalized in thinking life and while we are lost in our 
thoughts, life is passing away and we are not aware of it. Present moment, 
wonderful moment.
Well there is bliss and tranquility...yes it happens sometimes but there is 
pain and grief and restlessness and also this is part of life and is not to 
be denied or rejected.
Yesterday very late returning my cheap room in London suburbia, tranquil and 
relaxed, enjoying an energetic walk and a nice, invigorating song in my 
walkman and feeling not blissful but somewhat good considering that I have 
been quite troubled lately I was assaulted by a man on the desert streets 
and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a knife and attempting 
sexual abuse with violence.
I had to plead him to let me go with tearful eyes and desperation in my 
voice and I don't know why, Avalokteswara, my kamma or his compassion, he 
was moved and contented himself just to scare me dead but set me free 
overwhelmed yet without harm.
Well now I am recollecting and analyzing this past moment and I need my 
discursive thought to understand and accept what happened.
And this is what I call 'dynamic meditation' and doing a deliberate effort 
to develop right understanding.
Therefore what I am trying to communicate you and everybody is that for me 
everything that compounds our mind set thoughts, emotions, sensations, 
mental contents are to be observed and respected and one is not to be 
despised or preferred for another; that is our misconstruction of reality - 
as for me is natural being hotblooded I am prone to reject the sterile logic 
of intellectual reasoning that gets on my nerves but even that is necessary 
yet associated with everything that arises and this INCLUDES emotions. But 
one doesn't PRECLUDES the other, it should be a sinergy of many factors 
creating the right conditions to stabilish awareness.
Actually being emotional I have a very logical mind but I do not rationalize 
freezing reality to take charge and feel secure.
As you can see even a simple walk in a street can be upsetting.
And that is reality not always blissful Herman not always sorrowful.
I have to cope and this is part of the game taht I am invited to play.
I did not set the rules but I have no choice but accept them and try to 
understand.
That is what I was trying to communicate to Erik, life is here and now and 
you have to face it without denial or shielding yourself in eloquent 
intellectual reasonings.
They are not going to PROTECT YOU anyway; and we all are exposed and 
vulnerable.
Dhamma should be in my viewpoint our real strenght and not merely for mental 
delight.
Sensual or intellectual, pleasure is pleasure, delusion is delusion.
Glad to share with you.

Love and respect
Cybele


>Cybele, your post to and re Erik prompted the following thoughts:
>
>A man sat on the beach. He drew a line in the sand. He
>shouted "Eureka" and spoke loudly and at length to himself about his
>inspiration. The world was obviously divided into left and right
>world. All things on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to
>the right was on his left hand were inherently different to all
>things that were on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to
>the left was on his right hand. And so on.
>
>A hot-blooded, passionate, and cheeky person :-), seated nearby,
>noted there was no line. The rising sea had erased the line long ago.
>
>There are no real lines, no real divisions. The semblance arises by
>investment, identification. All line-drawing, all discursive thought
>is craving for self. Each moment reflecting the non-real is a moment
>lost.
>
>There is bliss and tranquility.
>
>Enjoy ! :-)
>
>
>Herman



 
4285 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 9:07am
Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  hello Alex, 
We look to see what is most prominent or obvious in the moment. 
We notice that. Then we look to see what is most obvious in 
the (next) moment; we notice that. And so on. 
jinavamsa


--- Alex wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
>    After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to 
> understand how the observing consciousness works.
> 
>    Thank you.
> 
> Anumodana,
> Alex Tran

 
4286 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 10:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhavana

 
  I think we have to examine the cittas involved in speech and
other activities to see this directly.
Also the 10 types of kusala kammapatha:

"giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation of someone
elses kusala, which are ways of dana, generosity,

abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who deserve it
and helping, which are ways of siila,

the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and explaining
it, and the development of right understanding, which are ways
of bhaavanaa, mental development. 

There is another meritorious action which can go together with
all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones views.
Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is one way of
correction of ones views, but there are many degrees of it,"
 (from deeds of merit by sujin boriharnwanaket).


All kusala can be divided into sila, dana or bhavana.
robert 




--- mike nease wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> Happy Uposatha.  I recall that somewhere in AIDL (I think)
> Nina 
> writes that right speech only occurs with regard to silaa,
> daana or 
> bhavana.  I don't recall running across this in the Suttanta
> or the 
> Vinaya.  Can anyone cite the source of this?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> mike
> 



 
4287 From: Num 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Hi Cybele,

Good to hear that you are safe and come back in one piece.   I don't know 
it's kamma or not but be cautious OK.   I am a little mad (at the guy) 
hearing this.  I agree, it's better to be optimistic and trust other but you 
have to be realistic as well, girl.   

Be careful and take good care of your self.

Warm regard from St.Louis,

Num

 
4288 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:03pm
Subject: threatened and robbed

 
  Dear Cybele,
I was worried to hear of your terrible expereince yesterday.
I guess you must be feeling bad  now since it happend just hours
ago.
I was robbed in the Phillipines once. Not so bad as yours as
they only menaced me and took my money; no knives and they
weren't after my virtue. But still I was stunned.
For me the thinking went: "I hope they rot in hell for this deed
etc. etc." Thus the thinking was initially rooted in strong
anger. Then later I felt very vulnerable: thinking rooted in
fear (another type of dosa). Later on I just thought I was lucky
they didn't cut my throat while they were at it. 
These are the patterns of thinking that arose - in my case-
because of past accumulations and deep tendencies. While this
was going on there was also a level of investigation that
studied the thinking and the underlying roots. 
One sees that only while we are thinking about the incident is
there fear or anger. If we don't think about it what then?
However, thinking is conditioned and will arise - anatta.


The thinking strongly conditions the roots that arise at the
same time and so too the roots (dosa, ignorance, craving and
non-dosa wisdom , detachment)condition the thinking. We cannot
just think as we wish to: if we could there would be no truth of
anatta.
 It is completely natural to be upset about such a savage
incident. The reason being that we cling deeply to self. When we
study about kamma/vipaka this can help us let go a little of
this clinging as that understanding supports insight of nama and
rupa. Even a sakadagami can have fear at such times - but an
anagami can't because they have less ignorance. 
I wrote a while back about how khun sujin said to someone about
a murderer: that there is no killer, no gun, no bullet and no
self. This is so hard to see and can only be known by breaking
down - each by themself- the concepts and clinging we have about
self and situation into moments of nama and rupa, into moments
of vipaka (result), moments of kamma(intention) etc. etc.
I certainly don't say I can do this but I have an idea of how it
can be done and the advantages of doing so are clear.

Thanks for telling us about this awful incident Cybele and know
that we are all wishing you well.
robert

--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
.
> Yesterday very late returning my cheap room in London
> suburbia, tranquil and 
> relaxed, enjoying an energetic walk and a nice, invigorating
> song in my 
> walkman and feeling not blissful but somewhat good considering
> that I have 
> been quite troubled lately I was assaulted by a man on the
> desert streets 
> and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a knife and
> attempting 
> sexual abuse with violence.
> I had to plead him to let me go with tearful eyes and
> desperation in my 
> voice and I don't know why, Avalokteswara, my kamma or his
> compassion, he 
> was moved and contented himself just to scare me dead but set
> me free 
> overwhelmed yet without harm.
> Well now I am recollecting and analyzing this past moment and
> I need my 
> discursive thought to understand and accept what happened.
> And this is what I call 'dynamic meditation' and doing a
> deliberate effort 
> to develop right understanding.
> Therefore what I am trying to communicate you and everybody is
> that for me 
> everything that compounds our mind set thoughts, emotions,
> sensations, 
> mental contents are to be observed and respected and one is
> not to be 
> despised or preferred for another; that is our misconstruction
> of reality - 



 
4289 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:10pm
Subject: passing away of a friend

 
  Dear group,
I just heard on another discussion forum (d-l) that a longtime
member - Bill wolf- died while resting on his porch. He had many
health problems but kept up his interest in Dhamma and wrote
many fine letters that helped the community of friends (over 450
on d-l) on the forum.
He was a good friend of venerable Dhammapiyo and others on this
list as well.
He will be sadly missed but his contributions and humour are an
inspiration.
robert


 
4290 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:29pm
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear All,

I didn't mean to make light of the study of the basics of paccaya, it 
is always good to know that for a single moment of seeing there has to 
be over 50 paccapa at play in combination, therefore any thought of 
control or modification would be quite useless since when the 
conditions are there there's no stopping anything from arising.  But 
to try to find out the exact paccaya of each moment that happens is 
acintaya, 'imponderable', also.  Second try at explaining the 
differences:

From the perspective of the citta having fallen away being cause for 
the next one to arise, this is called anantara paccaya.  That there 
must be a certain order as to what citta follows which is called 
samanantara.

From the perspective of the citta having experienced something and 
causes other citta to do the same kinds of things is upnissaya 
paccaya, and to arise to do so in a certain order is anantarupanissaya 
pacaya.

Asevana remains within the same javana vithi.

Any corrections?  Sorry I must have been a bit tired last night!

Amara


> Dear K. Kom,
> 
> Just for the papanca of it, could we say that:
> 
> Anatara: immediate cause and continuation;
> 
> Samanantara: immediate cause and continuation in the right order, no 
> skipping around;
> 
> Samanantarupa: the above, with the same (arammana) vithi + 

tadalambana
> 
> Asevana: the above, within the same javana vithi period.
> 
> How's that, just for fun?  Next week I'll try to remember to follow 
> this up.
> 
> Amara
> 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amara 
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:54 AM
> > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna
> > >
> > 
> > > asevaba has
> > > to be the in the same
> > > vithi and not including the tadalambana.
> > >
> > 
> > Asevana has to be in the same Javana vithi.  Anantara (and
> > anantarupa-nissaya) doesn't have to be.  For example, the
> > last Javana citta within a vithi is NOT asevana pacaya to
> > the tatalamppanna (or bhavanga), but IS ananatara pacaya to
> > the tatalamppanna.  In fact, anantara pacaya dhamma and its
> > paccayubanna dhamma doesn't have to be in the same vithi or
> > in the same life.  The last talampanna (a vithi citta) is
> > anantara pacaya to
> > the bhavanga (not a vithi citta).
> > 
> > I think the other question K. Num has is, if Anantara
> > paccaya and anantarupanissaya pacaya are pretty much the
> > same, why call them differently?  I am afraid I will have to
> > pass this one!  (On the other hand, we call a kind of
> > paramatha dhamma so many ways, maybe to increase the chance
> > of learning one way while we can't learn in the other?)
> > 
> > kom

 
4291 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:34pm
Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  Dear Howard,

I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the 
chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , and on other 
cetasika as well, 

Enjoy,
=^_^=
Amara


> > Dear Howard,
> > 
> > From what I understand, sanna never arises alone, and normally 
vitakka 
> > plays an important role in recalling by giving some objects of 
sanna 
> > particular importance by thinking of it often, therefore the 
memory is 
> > more easily recalled than those that happen 'automatically' 
millions 
> > of times each hour, where ekaggata, vitakka and vicara does not 
focus, 
> > 'touch/apply thinking' and 'sustain thinking' on it too strongly, 
for 
> > example.  
> > 
> > Does this help?
> > 
> --------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        A bit. ;-) Thanks.
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> > Amara
> > 
> ========================
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          

 
4292 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:40pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:29:46 -0800
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana


> Dear Erik,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik 
> >
> > A question that's bothered me some. How does the
> > Abhidhamma account
> > for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can
> > "cognize" nibbana?
> >
> > Erik
> >
> 
> I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara)
> cognizes Nibanna (asankhara).  However, I note that Citta
> also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all,
> which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no
> conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall).
> 
> kom
> Dear Kom,
I think you are wrong to say pannatti dosen't rise and fall and have no conditions.This is the view by Modern Myanmar monk who think that there are two uncondition (another is  niibana)but this is not the view of our theravada text book.If the pannatti is uncondition ,there will not be a kind of pannatti name asankhata pannatti.Pannatti is only half uncondition ,we can use this word.See Vibhanga com or just look at last few pages of Visuddhimagga by nyanamoli  in nirodha samapatti part.
Our lokiya citta couldn't percieve the nibbana until we are a arahant.
from Teng Kee 


 
4293 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  >    After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to 
> understand how the observing consciousness works.


Dear Alex,

As we know, all citta must have an object, otherwise it cannot arise. 
 It and its accompanying cetasika must have the same object, and as 
humans, we can only experience anything at all through the six dvara. 
 The five sense dvara have very specific arammana unique to the dvara, 
they cannot be exchanged: the eye cannot hear sound, etc.  The body 
sense has more than one rupa as arammana, unlike the other four sense 
dvara; the body sense has three rupa as possible arammana, therefore 
the five senses have altogether 7 rupa as possible arammana.  The 
senses experience the rupa through the process of citta or vithi 
citta, the details of which you can read in the 'Summary', Citta 
chapter 4. <http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > from which this excerpt is 
taken:

There are 7 vithi-citta through the panca-dvara.
1. Avajjana-vithi, which is the panca-dvaravajjana-vithi-citta. 
2. One of the dvi-pancavinnana-citta, namely the cakkhu-, sota-, 
ghana-, jivha-, or kaya-vinnana. 
3. Sampaticchanna-citta, which arises to receive the arammana in 
continuation from one of the dvi-pancavinnana-citta that had fallen 
away 
4. Santirana-citta, which examines the arammana 
5. Votthabbana-citta, which makes way for kusala or akusala or 
kiriya-citta (only for the arahanta) to ensue 
6. Javana-vithi-citta, literally "javana " means dart or run swiftly 
through arammana, with kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta (uniquely the 
arahanta) 
7. Tadalambana-vithi or tadarammana-vithi. Tadalambana-vithi-citta 
arises to perform the function of receiving and knowing the arammana 
from the javana-vithi-citta when the arammana has not yet fallen away 
since the rupa lasts 17 instants of citta as follows: 
1. The instant when rupa arises to impinge on the dvara and comes into 
contact with the atita-bhavanga. 
2. The instant of bhavanga-jalana-citta 
3. The instant of bhavangupaccheda-citta 
4. The instant of panca-dvaravajjana-citta 
5. The instant of dvi-pancavinnana-citta 
6. The instant of sampaticchanna-citta 
7. The instant of santirana-citta 
8. The instant of votthabbana-citta 
9. The instant of the first javana-citta 
10. The instant of the second javana-citta 
11. The instant of the third javana-citta 
12. The instant of the fourth javana-citta -- 7 javana-citta 
13. The instant of the fifth javana-citta 
14. The instant of the sixth javana-citta 
15. The instant of the seventh javana-citta 
Altogether the duration of the rupa, from the atita-bhavanga-citta to 
the last of the javana-citta, has lasted fifteen instants of citta. 
The rupa has not yet fallen away. It endures two instants of citta 
more. Normally for the kamma-puggala, when the javana-citta has run 
through the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodysense contact but the 
rupa hasn't fallen away, the accumulations of past kamma, full of 
attachment to the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodysense contact, 
would be paccaya for the vipaka-citta to arise as two more 
tadalambana-vithi-citta to receive and know the arammana afterwards. 
Tadalambana-vithi-citta which performs the function of knowing the 
arammana in succession from the javana-vithi is the last citta to 
arise and perceive arammana through a dvara. After the last 
vithi-citta of a dvara the bhavanga-citta arise and fall away until 
the next vithi-citta arises to know arammana through one of the dvara. 
When there is bhavanga-citta the world does not appear; all memory of 
happenings, people and occurrences of this world do not appear. When 
one is deep asleep, there is bhavanga-citta all through. There is no 
knowledge or memory of this world at all. When the cuti-citta arises 
to perform the function of leaving this being, the patisandhi-citta 
succeeds, then the next vithi-citta that arises would concern another 
world. But while cuti-citta has not yet arisen, even though the 
bhavanga-citta does not know any arammana of this world, whenever 
vithi-citta arise, nothing can stop them from knowing arammana of this 
world, such as sight, sound, smell, taste or bodysense contact and 
other matters of this world continually. 
The order of arising of the vithi-citta through the panca-dvara is as 
follows :
1. Atita-bhavanga 
2. Bhavanga-jalana --non-vithi-citta 
3. Bhavangupaccheda 
4. Panca-dvaravajjana-citta 
5. Dvi-pancavinnana-citta 
6. Sampaticchanna-citta -- vithi-citta 
7. Santirana-citta 
8. Votthabbana-citta 
9. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 
10. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 
11. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 
12. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta -- the 7 javana-vithi -citta 
13. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 
14. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 
15. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 
16. Tadalambana-citta 
17. Tadalambana-citta -- the 2 Tadalambana- vithi-citta 
The duration of the sabhava-rupa [non-conscious reality] equals the 
arising and falling away of 17 citta. 
When the vithi-citta arises to know the arammana through one of the 
panca-dvara, which are the pasada-rupa, and has fallen away, the 
bhavanga-citta alternately arises in continuation. Then the 
mano-dvara-vithi-citta, or the citta that is based on the mind 
(bhavangupaccheda-citta) as the dvara through which the arammana is 
known, would know the same arammana as the vithi-citta of the 
panca-dvara that has just fallen away. In each process the vithi-citta 
that arises to know the the arammana through one of the mano-dvara are 
fewer than the vithi-citta that arises to know the arammana through 
the panca-dvara. The mano-dvara process is without the atita-bhavanga 
because the arammana does not impinge on the cakkhuppasada, for 
example. However, before the mano-dvaravajjana-citta can reflect upon 
the arammana that the vithi-citta knows through the panca-dvara and 
then fall away, the bhavanga-jalana must rise and vibrate with the 
arammana and then fall away. Then the bhavangupaccheda arises and 
falls away. After that the mano-dvaravajjana-citta arises as the first 
mano-dvara-vithi-citta. The citta that performs the avajjana-kicca 
through the mano-dvara is not the panca-dvaravajjana-citta. The 
panca-dvaravajjana-citta can only do avajjana-kicca through the 
panca-dvara. It cannot perform avajjana-kicca through the mind-door. 
The citta that performs this duty is one time the 
mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs the function to reflect on the 
arammana of the mano-dvara or to think of the arammana through the 
mano-dvara. Each day when we think thoughts, while thinking the citta 
does not know any arammana through the eye, ear, nose, tongue or the 
bodysense. The bhavanga-jalana has arisen and fallen away, the 
bhavangupaccheda arises in sequence and falls away, then the 
mano-dvaravajjana-citta would arise as the first 
mano-dvara-vithi-citta. When the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has fallen 
away, for those who are not the arahanta, kusala or akusala citta, 
which are javana-vithi-citta, would arise and fall away in a series of 
the same kind of citta for seven instants. After the kusala- or 
akusala- javana-vithi-citta has fallen away, if it is a mental 
arammana that appears clearly, two tadalambana-vithi-citta would arise 
in continuation. Thus, there are only three vithi-citta that arise to 
know arammana through the mano-dvara as follows : 
1. One instant of mano-dvaravajjana-vithi 
2. Seven javana-vithi 
3. Two tadalambana-vithi

(End quote)


What Kom stressed was that the arammana of the citta of the five sense 
dvara would still be extant when the citta arises through that dvara 
to have them as objects, whereas for the mano dvara that comes to 
receive the same arammana in sequence would not have that rupa there 
anymore since the rupa has fallen away before the mano dvara arises to 
know it in its turn, always, even though it is regarded as the 
'present arammana'.  KS explains that it is because both the citta and 
its arammana arise and fall so fast that it appears continuous now, 
like someone twirling a lit baton or a ventilator moving, you see it 
as a continuous line of flame or a flat surface where the individual 
propeller blades are.  Or the spokes of a cycle wheel.  Such is the 
speed of the arising and falling away of the screen before your eyes 
now that it completely hides the mano dvara that arises in between the 
seeing, hearing, etc.  And such is the speed that the citta cannot 
really know itself, but can only study the characters of the citta 
from past citta and cetasika that has just fallen away, just like the 
tip of the index finger that can touch all other things but not 
itself.  I adapted this analogy from Sukin's, he also remarked that in 
fact through the mano dvara there is only the past.  This is of course 
at the level of the individual citta, 17 times the speed of any rupa, 
at least 17 times the speed of light.  At the present moment KS said 
we could never distinguish between what is experienced through the 5 
sense dvara from the mano dvara experiencing the immediate memory 
thereof, it is exactly alike.  Sati, which occurs only in the javana, 
can arise both through the 5 sense vithi and the mano dvara vithi and 
can study both the paramatthadhamma (the seven rupa) as well as the 
citta and cetasika through the mano dvara.  According to conditions it 
might be able to experience the 'subtle rupa' through the mano dvara 
as well, and at the level of the supreme magga citta, to experience 
nibbana, when the great conditions have been fulfilled.  

This shows how little we live in the present, doesn't it, and the 
most important thing is to be able to study the true characteristics 
of realities as much as we can, indeed the only moment we can really 
experience arammana that has not fallen away is when one is aware of 
the five dvara and their arammana as it happens now.  The rest are 
really only thoughts, memory.  

Anumodana with all those who study,

Amara

 
4294 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Cybele,

I'm so glad you escaped relatively unscathed!!!  

I really felt a lot of dosa from what you related, and mudita that 
your kusala kept you from worse, do take care and have a safe and 
pleasant remaining stay in London and trip home!

Do keep us posted,

Amara

 
4295 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:26pm
Subject: Re: passing away of a friend

 
  Venerable sir,

Hearfelt condolences, sir, my mother always said ten persons entering 
a house is not as deeply felt as one person leaving it.  Especially a 
close dhamma friend,  

Amara


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear group,
> I just heard on another discussion forum (d-l) that a longtime
> member - Bill wolf- died while resting on his porch. He had many
> health problems but kept up his interest in Dhamma and wrote
> many fine letters that helped the community of friends (over 450
> on d-l) on the forum.
> He was a good friend of venerable Dhammapiyo and others on this
> list as well.
> He will be sadly missed but his contributions and humour are an
> inspiration.
> robert
> 

 
4296 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  Hi, Amara -

       Thank you for the reference.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 3/25/01 6:35:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear Howard,
> 
> I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the 
> chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , and on other 
> cetasika as well, 
> 
> Enjoy,
> =^_^=
> Amara
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
4297 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:22am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Amara,

Here's an excerpt from NVG's Conditions about
Anantarupanissaya pacaya:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> From the perspective of the citta having
>
> experienced something and
> causes other citta to do the same kinds of things
> is upnissaya
> paccaya, and to arise to do so in a certain order
> is anantarupanissaya
> pacaya.

The second condition classified under decisive
support-condition is proximate decisive support-condition,
anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. This
condition is similar to proximity-condition
(anantara-paccaya, see Ch
4).  Both conditions pertain to each preceding citta which
conditions the
succeeding citta without any interval. However, a
distinction between
these two conditions has to be made. The teaching of
proximate
decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya paccaya,
stresses the
aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force in
the
relationship between the conditioning reality, the preceding
citta, and
the conditioned reality, the succeeding citta. We read in
the
“Visuddhimagga”( XVII, 82) about the difference between the
two
conditional relations:

... Nevertheless proximity may be understood as the ability
to cause the
occurrence of an appropriate consciousness arising proximate
(next) to
itself, and decisive support as the preceding consciousness’
s cogency in
the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses....

 
4298 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  Hi again, Amara -

       I've looked over the material, and, indeed, it *is* helpful. The 
co-occurrence of and interactions among the various cetasikas is quite 
interesting. I do particularly note the co-arising of vitakkha and manasikara 
(sp?) with sa~n~na, and it makes the matter clearer to me. It seems to me 
that if someone were to give a detailed presentation of the Abhidhamma 
content, and particularly, of the characteristics and interactions of the 
mental concomitants, in a manner that avoided tables and dry listings, it 
could be a subject that is absolutely fascinating, especially to "scientific 
types". Nyanaponika Thera took some steps in this direction, but, in my 
opinion, he didn't go far enough.

Wih metta,
Howard

In a message dated 3/25/01 11:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes:


> Hi, Amara -
> 
>       Thank you for the reference.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> In a message dated 3/25/01 6:35:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Amara writes:> 
> 
> 
> >> Dear Howard,
>> 
>> I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the 
>> chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the 
>> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , and on other 
>> cetasika as well, 
>> 
>> Enjoy,
>> =^_^=
>> Amara
>> 
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4299 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:49am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Teng Kee,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: teng kee ong 
> I think you are wrong to say pannatti dosen't
> rise and fall and have no conditions.This is the
> view by Modern Myanmar monk who think that there
> are two uncondition (another is  niibana)but this
> is not the view of our theravada text book.If the
> pannatti is uncondition ,there will not be a kind
> of pannatti name asankhata pannatti.Pannatti is
> only half uncondition ,we can use this word.See
> Vibhanga com or just look at last few pages of
> Visuddhimagga by nyanamoli  in nirodha samapatti part.

Since I don't have Nyanamoli's Visuddhimagga, I can neither
confirm or refute what you mentioned.  I am wrong often, and
this maybe no exception.

> Our lokiya citta couldn't percieve the nibbana
> until we are a arahant.

Which Arahant's lokiya citta perceive nibbana?

kom

 
4300 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:59am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Kom,

Perhaps we should compare it with the passage from KS's 
'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the advanced section of also, the one I 
quoted before <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> :

5. Upanissaya-paccaya 

Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for 
other realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality 
that is paccaya by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not 
arise concurrently with it.  There are three upanissaya-paccaya: 

1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya 

2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya 

3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya 

As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the 
lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is the strong base by being the 
arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that is arising in the present.  When 
there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and attachment in the 
 wrong view as strong arammana the 
lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta would arise to think frequently 
of the reality, thus it would be a strong base by being the arammana. 
 For example, in the instant there is pleasure and satisfaction in 
wrong view in the practice that the person regards as right view, 
there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in the wrong 
view. 

The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the 
last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the 
next lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi. 
 The last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta 
or bhavanga to arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya. 



> Dear K. Amara,
> 
> Here's an excerpt from NVG's Conditions about
> Anantarupanissaya pacaya:
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Amara 
> > From the perspective of the citta having
> >
> > experienced something and
> > causes other citta to do the same kinds of things
> > is upnissaya
> > paccaya, and to arise to do so in a certain order
> > is anantarupanissaya
> > pacaya.
> 
> The second condition classified under decisive
> support-condition is proximate decisive support-condition,
> anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. This
> condition is similar to proximity-condition
> (anantara-paccaya, see Ch
> 4).  Both conditions pertain to each preceding citta which
> conditions the
> succeeding citta without any interval. However, a
> distinction between
> these two conditions has to be made. The teaching of
> proximate
> decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya paccaya,
> stresses the
> aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force in
> the
> relationship between the conditioning reality, the preceding
> citta, and
> the conditioned reality, the succeeding citta. We read in
> the
> "Visuddhimagga"( XVII, 82) about the difference between the
> two
> conditional relations:
> 
> ... Nevertheless proximity may be understood as the ability
> to cause the
> occurrence of an appropriate consciousness arising proximate
> (next) to
> itself, and decisive support as the preceding consciousness'
> s cogency in
> the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses....

 
4301 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:03am
Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report

 
  Dear Howard,

If you have time do look at the entire (massive!) book, it was the 
best introduction to the abhidhamma I have ever read, personally.  
Just start at the beginning and go through it when you have the time. 
 I could never recommend it enough!!!

Amara


> Hi again, Amara -
> 
>        I've looked over the material, and, indeed, it *is* helpful. 
The 
> co-occurrence of and interactions among the various cetasikas is 
quite 
> interesting. I do particularly note the co-arising of vitakkha and 
manasikara 
> (sp?) with sa~n~na, and it makes the matter clearer to me. It seems 
to me 
> that if someone were to give a detailed presentation of the 
Abhidhamma 
> content, and particularly, of the characteristics and interactions 
of the 
> mental concomitants, in a manner that avoided tables and dry 
listings, it 
> could be a subject that is absolutely fascinating, especially to 
"scientific 
> types". Nyanaponika Thera took some steps in this direction, but, in 
my 
> opinion, he didn't go far enough.
> 
> Wih metta,
> Howard
> 
> In a message dated 3/25/01 11:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Upasaka writes:
> 
> 
> > Hi, Amara -
> > 
> >       Thank you for the reference.
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 
> > In a message dated 3/25/01 6:35:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> > Amara writes:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >> Dear Howard,
> >> 
> >> I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the 
> >> chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the 
> >> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , and on other 
> >> cetasika as well, 
> >> 
> >> Enjoy,
> >> =^_^=
> >> Amara
> >> 


 
4302 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:09am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Teng Kee,

--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> Dear Kom,

> Pannatti is only half
> uncondition ,we can use this word.See Vibhanga com
> or just look at last few pages of Visuddhimagga by
> nyanamoli in nirodha samapatti part.

Are you referring here to Visuddhimagga XXIII, ([C.)
25?

Thank you, sir,

mike


 
4303 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma)

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> I think we have to examine the cittas involved in
> speech and
> other activities to see this directly.
> Also the 10 types of kusala kammapatha:
> 
> "giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation
> of someone
> elses kusala, which are ways of dana, generosity,
> 
> abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who
> deserve it
> and helping, which are ways of siila,
> 
> the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and
> explaining
> it, and the development of right understanding,
> which are ways
> of bhaavanaa, mental development. 
> 
> There is another meritorious action which can go
> together with
> all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones
> views.
> Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is
> one way of
> correction of ones views, but there are many degrees
> of it,"
>  (from deeds of merit by sujin boriharnwanaket).
> 
> 
> All kusala can be divided into sila, dana or
> bhavana.

Thanks for 

(1) reminding me of the 10 kusala kammapatha (by the
way, does anyone know if this list occurs explicitly
in the Suttanta or the Vinaya?);

(2) reminding me of this excellent resource
(http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html);

(3) reminding me of a great new (to me) Paali term
found there: "It is the kind of kusala which is
correction of ones views, in Paali: diññhujukamma.";
and

(4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are two
different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's
excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @
http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm)
 
mike



 
4304 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma)

 
  Correction:

The URL for Paliwords should have been:

http://members.home.net/j-andrew-shaw/pali.htm


 
4305 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:05am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> Dear K. Kom,
>
> Perhaps we should compare it with the passage from KS's
> 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the advanced
> section of also, the one I
> quoted before <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> :
>

You are right.  I have looked back at the earlier post you
have made: I couldn't find disagreements anywhere between
your post, my posts (with Nina's quote), and your post (with
A. Sujin's quote).

Anumoddhana.

kom

 
4306 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Cybele,

--- cybele chiodi  wrote:

> I was assaulted by a man on the desert streets 
> and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a
> knife and attempting sexual abuse with violence.

In recent years both I and a close family member have
been victims of criminal violence--my sister's far
worse than my own.

In each case my first reaction was a strong impulse to
hunt down the perpetrator and take revenge.  The
though of 'scratching this itch' was a very pleasant
one, and hard to let go.  Given your friendly nature,
maybe you'll be able to bypass this stage.  Though it
might be temoprarily subdued by cultivation of
friendliness, compassion, gladness and equanimity,
ultimately, the only freedom from this
malice-begotten-malice is the arising of genuine
understanding toward the 'perpetrator'--as Khun Sujin
and Robert pointed out, 'no killer--no gun'.

I'm very glad you've come away physically unharmed. 
As Num said, do be careful.  This world is ruled by
craving, malice and ignorance--any of us might be a
victim at any time.

Thank you for this reminder of the actions that can
result from passion and sensuality carried to their
extremes.  A very sobering lesson on the importance of
understanding the nature of the unwholesome roots.

mike   


 
4307 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Num

Thank you for you support and care, I really appreciate.
To tell you the truth I am having a kind of retroactive response to it.
And I am feeling quite insecure going around, looking at people that comes 
close to me with big eyes and apprehension; considering that normally I am 
very bold is weird for me to react like that.
Yesterday I asked a friend to keep me company on the way back home as he 
lives nearby and Saturday evening in London lots of people have fun getting 
drunk to loosen up tensions and I was not feeling very confortable.
Then don't worry I am being careful and watching out but however we cannot 
control such situations; we have our individual kamma and a collective kamma 
as well to cope with.
I suppose I was too relaxed as living for one year in Thailand I have never 
been harrassed by a man.
Good to know that you care.

A hug
Cybele

>From: Num
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - 
>Erik/Herman
>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:02:27 EST
>
>Hi Cybele,
>
>Good to hear that you are safe and come back in one piece.   I don't know
>it's kamma or not but be cautious OK.   I am a little mad (at the guy)
>hearing this.  I agree, it's better to be optimistic and trust other but 
>you
>have to be realistic as well, girl.
>
>Be careful and take good care of your self.
>
>Warm regard from St.Louis,
>
>Num
>


 
4308 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Amara

Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in 
recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of delayed 
reaction I suppose.
I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am feeling 
depressed.
Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that the 
survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode.
But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I felt to 
share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my emotions.
Thank you for your care and good wishes.

Love
Cybele



>Dear Cybele,
>
>I'm so glad you escaped relatively unscathed!!!
>
>I really felt a lot of dosa from what you related, and mudita that
>your kusala kept you from worse, do take care and have a safe and
>pleasant remaining stay in London and trip home!
>
>Do keep us posted,
>
>Amara
>


 
4309 From: mike nease 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:38am
Subject: Re: Samma-Vayama

 
  Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:

> Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a
> reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions of
> the path factors in that same context must be read
> accordingly.
> 
> Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors instead
> of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the
> suttas, as far as I know.  This is the development of
> satipatthana.

I ran across this great discourse by chance this morning, and it 
seems to me to address what I was aiming at when I mistakenly 
referred to the 'mundane eightfold path'.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: 
There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, 
resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right 
view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path."

Majjhima Nikaya 117
Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta
The Great Forty

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html

This goes on to describe the other path factors in the same way--with 
asavas and (Noble) without asavas.

"And what is the right view that is without fermentations, 
transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of 
discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a 
factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing 
the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from 
fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the 
right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of 
the path."

Am I mistaken in reading into this that there is a Noble Eightfold 
path for the Ariyapuggala and a (non-Noble) ('five-fold') path for 
the puthujjana?

> But again, the description of the path factors is
> descriptive of the functions of the relevant cetasikas
> that arise at that moment, rather than being a
> direction to the listener to develop each of those
> factors individually.

Further on, he says of each of the first five path factors that 
'right view, right effort and right mindfulness run and circle 
around' it, and that 'this is one's right mindfulness'. 

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is 
one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & 
remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these 
three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- 
run & circle around right view. 

"One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: 
This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & 
to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. 
Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right 
mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. 

"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This 
is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to 
enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus 
these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right 
mindfulness -- run & circle around right speech. 

"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This 
is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to 
enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus 
these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right 
mindfulness -- run & circle around right action. 

"One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right 
livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon 
wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is 
one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, 
right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right 
livelihood.

Interestingly, it stops here--right effort and right mindfulness are 
present only by 'running and circling around' the first five factors 
and there is no mention at all of (non-Noble) right concentration. 

I take these to be the five factors of the mundane path you mention 
above? So it seems that all of the first five path factors, 'run and 
circled around by right view, right effort and right mindfulness' ARE 
right mindfulness AND right effort (as opposed to Noble Right 
Mindfulness and Noble Right Effort).  This would seem to support your 
statement above that, "Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors 
instead of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the suttas, 
as far as I know.  This is the development of satipatthana." Is this 
what you were referring to?

This seems to stress a very specific emphasis on and relationship 
between right view, right effort and right mindfulness that I don't 
recall seeing elsewhere in the Suttanta or the Vinaya.

I still haven't sorted out all the implications of this.  It does 
seem to me at least to place some importance on mundane right view, 
right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood and right 
effort to the puthujjana.  Does this make sense to your reading?

Thanks in advance.

mike

 
4310 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed

 
  Dear Robert

>
>Dear Cybele,
>I was worried to hear of your terrible expereince yesterday.
>I guess you must be feeling bad  now since it happend just hours
>ago.

Well short after I felt relieved and grateful to be unharmed but now my mood 
is flattened and I am feeling sad, deprived of energy.
And since then my mind just keep focusing on it trying to understand, to 
'digest', to find a logical pattern.


>I was robbed in the Phillipines once. Not so bad as yours as
>they only menaced me and took my money; no knives and they
>weren't after my virtue. But still I was stunned.

I know you meant well and you do really care about me Rob but you see this 
word 'virtue' is almost mocking the way a woman feel when she is sexually 
threatened.
A male never, ever will be able to understand the extent of the devastation 
that a woman feel even being only touched or handled against her will. You 
feel powerless, crushed down, without any defense, a perfect fool, a total 
nonentity.
It's one of the most disgusting, overwhelming, hurtful sensations a male 
will never have to be forced to experience. It's awful.
I went back home and scrubbed myself till I was sore.


>For me the thinking went: "I hope they rot in hell for this deed
>etc. etc." Thus the thinking was initially rooted in strong
>anger.

I was not angry then, I was scared and feeling so stupid for my 
carelessness, blaming myself actually. Fear and disgust for the violence 
that brings a man to behave like that and a woman to submit to this 
brutality.


>Then later I felt very vulnerable: thinking rooted in
>fear (another type of dosa).

This is like I am feeling now, I am flattened down, feeling insecure, 
watching out and recognizing that I will be powerless the same if it happens 
again but I cannot lock myself inside a house.
You walk down the street and you hear steps behind you and your heartbeat 
accelerates. Yes I feel vulnerable.



>Later on I just thought I was lucky
>they didn't cut my throat while they were at it.

I felt grateful at the very moment he released me and kept repeating inside 
me like a reassuring mantra that I was safe, thanks, thanks to god, or my 
kamma, or buddha, just thanks he did not rape me.
And at the same time I blamed myself to don't realizing the danger.
I felt a fool. After so many years travelling around letting myself be 
caught defenceless like that.


>These are the patterns of thinking that arose - in my case-
>because of past accumulations and deep tendencies. While this
>was going on there was also a level of investigation that
>studied the thinking and the underlying roots.

It's difficult to believe but while was happening my mind kept investigating 
it; thinking why, what drives his mind and emotions to inflict me this pain?
I just managed to keep telling him, please don't, don't I trust you are not 
going to harm me, I trust you, I trust you and incredible he looked at me 
while handling me harsh and he was startled, something in my voice, in my 
eyes touched him.


>One sees that only while we are thinking about the incident is
>there fear or anger. If we don't think about it what then?
>However, thinking is conditioned and will arise - anatta.


Yes Robert but evil can be quite consistent and it hurts.
What goes on in the mental processes of a person that resorts to violence?
In his brutality he was not totally unmindful as he released me.


>
>The thinking strongly conditions the roots that arise at the
>same time and so too the roots (dosa, ignorance, craving and
>non-dosa wisdom , detachment)condition the thinking. We cannot
>just think as we wish to: if we could there would be no truth of
>anatta.
>  It is completely natural to be upset about such a savage
>incident. The reason being that we cling deeply to self. When we
>study about kamma/vipaka this can help us let go a little of
>this clinging as that understanding supports insight of nama and
>rupa. Even a sakadagami can have fear at such times - but an
>anagami can't because they have less ignorance.
>I wrote a while back about how khun sujin said to someone about
>a murderer: that there is no killer, no gun, no bullet and no
>self. This is so hard to see and can only be known by breaking
>down - each by themself- the concepts and clinging we have about
>self and situation into moments of nama and rupa, into moments
>of vipaka (result), moments of kamma(intention) etc. etc.
>I certainly don't say I can do this but I have an idea of how it
>can be done and the advantages of doing so are clear.

I would like to further discuss this but now they are closing this internet 
center. Later I will continue.

>
>Thanks for telling us about this awful incident Cybele and know
>that we are all wishing you well.
>robert
>


Thank you Rob, I appreciate your concern.
I just felt like sharing because for me Dhamma is real, burning life and not 
sterile theory.

Love
Cybele


 
4311 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 6:10am
Subject: Re: cognize nibbana

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
 
> I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara)
> cognizes Nibanna (asankhara).  However, I note that Citta
> also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all,
> which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no
> conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall).

Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti meaning "concept"--
MUST be a sankhara dhamma, because it comes into being based on 
causes and conditions, even though it is an "unchanging phenomenon". 
This simply means it lacks the property of disintegratedness--such as 
the FACT of "roundness of the earth" lacks disintegratedness, meaning 
the CONCEPT "roundness" doesn't disintegrate, though it ceases to 
function once the object it's applied to disintegrates, such as the 
earth blowing up. 

Because a pannatti applies to a sankhara dhamma it depends by 
definition; in other words, it's still a sankhara dhamma because it 
depends on a basis of designation, such as "earth." 

So I think we may have different understanding of pannatti if you say 
it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify if I'm messing up 
the definition of it, and what you mean by lacking characteristics. 
To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to have enough of a 
characteristic to perform the function of characterizing what it's 
referring to. That would be the "characteristic" of that given 
pannatti to my understanding.

 
 
 

 
4312 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 6:49am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  --- "cybele chiodi"  
wrote:

> Then I suppose I was right dear Erik, you have chosen to IGNORE ME.

You found me out! I have to confess, I have specifically chosen to 
ignore YOU. It's all about ignoring "Cybele, the dynamic meditator." 
It's been hard, I admit, but there you have it.

> It means that I am not your 'cup of coffee' anyway it seems.
> And means also that you are not so compassionate, don't you think 
that you 
> are being discriminative with me?

You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad 
Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient 
beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give you 
an idea of just who you're dealing with here.

 
4313 From: Num 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Hi again Cybele,

It's sad to hear that you are feeling down and discourage.  Give your self 
some time to recover, you just have been through the most terrible experience 
in your life.  It's normal to feel disgusted, scared, doubtful, to blame 
yourself or to be angry.  I hope you use this experience as a great lesson 
for knowing yourself and dhamma and I hope it will never happen again.  One 
is more than enough, I know.  I like the idiom, our loss is our gain, mean we 
can see thing in different angle and perspective and we can make best out of 
everything.  We can learn from our best and worst moment, as you said life is 
so real.

Flashback and startled response usually happen for a while.  Sound like you 
are not that angry with the man at this point.  As you probably know, emotion 
and feeling are conditional dhamma. They arise, sustain and fall away by 
causes and conditions.  We love ourselves as does everybody else.   Again be 
careful, I think it's a very smart idea to have a company esp. when you are 
in this stage of feeling and emotion.

Tell me you learn something from it and will let go and move on. Give 
yourself some time for recovery.

I appreciate your kindness and thanks for sharing your experience and your 
"life" with us.

Hope you get well very soon and again share with us a sunny radiant attitude.

Num

 
4314 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:03am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> Dear K. Kom,
> 
> "Just for the papanca of it"...

I am keeping that one, Amara! I love it! :)

 
4315 From: Num 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi K.Amara,

Well, after a long discussion with Kom, I still cannot come to the clear 
definition and character of sanna, (as well as manasikara, vitakka and 
vicara).

So far, I understand that sanna marks or registers arammana as well as 
performs a function of recallection in memory retrival process.  I mentioned 
that memory basically has three characters, registration, retention and 
recall.   You also said the power of sanna varies from citta to citta and 
also by other paccaya.   

Rgding Anantarupanissaya-paccaya and Anantara paccaya, I think 
Anantarupanissaya-paccaya  is kind of subset of anantara paccaya and overlaps 
with anatara paccaya in a sense that it causes the immediate subsequent-citta 
the same kind of citta but anatara can cause any kinds of citta arise 
immediately afterward.

Dhamma is deep, glad that I have to share and study with you.

I need to study more, mean more questions to come :)

Num

 
4316 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Hi, Cybele -

In a message dated 3/25/01 2:59:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Cybele writes:


> Dear Amara
> 
> Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in 
> recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of delayed 
> reaction I suppose.
> I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am feeling 
> depressed.
> Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that the 
> survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode.
> But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I felt 
> to 
> share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my emotions.
> Thank you for your care and good wishes.
> 
> Love
> Cybele
> 
=================================
       Some psychologists say that depression is sometimes anger misdirected 
towards oneself. Both anger and depression hurt the one who carries the 
emotion. Please don't let that dog's action have any more ill effect on you 
than the event itself directly did - let there be no repercussions. If you 
have to feel one or the other of anger and depression, choose anger so that 
at least it is appropriately directed. But, if you possibly can, please try 
to cultivate compassion, both for yourself and for the poor soul who has sunk 
so low. I don't think that either anger or depression can survive long in the 
face of compassion. Be well, and feel safe and secure. I have the sense, 
that, in a certain way, whatever should befall us, we are ultimately "safe". 
May you feel the same.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 

 
4318 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 338

 
  Dear Jon,
Just returned from Turkey and so am quite far behind in catching up with the
various digests and letters from the group. But just having read your
description of right view in digest 338, I would like to ask you how right
view would then differ from sati and right understanding (panna), according
to your description? While right understanding on an initial level must be
pariyati (intellectual understanding), it does, as Dan noted, later become a
higher level of understanding when, given the conditions to have arisen,
satipatthana  occurs, i.e., when sati, sampajjana and panna have arisen.

With metta,
Betty

Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 338


> > Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:05:25 +0800 (CST)
>    From: Jonothan Abbott 
> Subject: Re: On Right View
> > In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the factors of
> the Noble Eightfold Path.  As such, it occurs with
> each moment of true awareness of reality.
> Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental factor
> of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana.
> Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the
> characteristic of a reality experienced by citta
> (moment of consciousness) at that moment.
>
> Only at such moments of such awareness can we say that
> there is right view.  So in suttanta or abhidhamma
> terms, right view does not refer to a view that
> someone holds about the world or about dhamma
> generally.
>
> Jon
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Message: 2
>    Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:36:06 -0000
>    From: "Dan Dalthorp" 
> Subject: Re: On Right View
>
> Jon,
> Your view of right view is very narrow compared to what I read in the
> suttas. Mundane right view begins with intellectual acceptance of
> kamma/vipaka. From there, it is developed into intellectual
> understanding and acceptance of the four noble truths. It is further
> developed and developed, and gradually the right view becomes right
> view based on direct experience.
>
> This is indeed an interesting and important subject. Time permitting,
> I will find some references to chew on soon.
>
> Dan
>
>

 
4319 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Erik
(with apologies for getting your name wrong in my
previous posts)

Whether or not concepts (pannatti) are conditioned
realities (sankhara dhammas) must as you say depend to
some extent on one's definition of the terms, but as
far as the Pali canon is concerned I think the
position is quite clear.

This is that there is a clear distinction between
'ultimate realities' (paramattha dhammas), which are
'with individual essence' (sabhava), on the one hand,
and concepts (pannatti), which are 'without individual
essence' (abhava) on the other.  The question of what
exactly is meant by 'with/without individual essence'
here also depends on one's definition.

Pannatti are entirely a creation of the mind, and
therefore have no substance whatsoever.  I am not
aware of any reference in the Pali literature to the
'property of disintegratedness' test which you refer
to.

This distinction is of great practical importance
because the panna that that is to be developed at a
moment of satipatthana/vipassana has the function of
knowing the characteristic of a paramattha dhamma but
not that of a concept.  Knowledge of concepts does not
lead towards the lifting of the veil of ignorance.

You might be interested to look at some earlier posts
on this subject.  See messages # 2918, 2932, 3362 (+
3409) and 3494 in the archives and the other messages
listed under Concepts and Realities in the 'Useful
Links' document at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files.

Jon

 
> Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti
> meaning "concept"--
> MUST be a sankhara dhamma, because it comes into
> being based on 
> causes and conditions, even though it is an
> "unchanging phenomenon". 
> This simply means it lacks the property of
> disintegratedness--such as 
> the FACT of "roundness of the earth" lacks
> disintegratedness, meaning 
> the CONCEPT "roundness" doesn't disintegrate, though
> it ceases to 
> function once the object it's applied to
> disintegrates, such as the 
> earth blowing up. 
> 
> Because a pannatti applies to a sankhara dhamma it
> depends by 
> definition; in other words, it's still a sankhara
> dhamma because it 
> depends on a basis of designation, such as "earth." 
> 
> So I think we may have different understanding of
> pannatti if you say 
> it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify if
> I'm messing up 
> the definition of it, and what you mean by lacking
> characteristics. 
> To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to have
> enough of a 
> characteristic to perform the function of
> characterizing what it's 
> referring to. That would be the "characteristic" of
> that given 
> pannatti to my understanding.
> 




 
4320 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma)

 
  Dear mike,
Could you explain the difference?
Robert
> (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are two
> different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's
> excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @
> http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm)
>  
> mike



 
4321 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:22am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  > Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in 
> recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of 
delayed 
> reaction I suppose.
> I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am 
feeling 
> depressed.
> Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that 
the 
> survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode.
> But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I 
felt to 
> share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my 
emotions.


Dear Cybele,

It is indeed wonderful that you think of the dhamma in such a 
situation, in fact what better time to study realities as they arise, 
although for us it must be cause for much dosa, as the strong memory 
arises from conditions now.  You in your optimistic attitude and warm 
nature would probably be more used to lobha than dosa but you might 
see that what the Buddha taught; that lobha is the cause of dosa, is 
very true too.  One is attached to the happy feeling that is followed 
by the unpleasant whenever the desired feeling subsides, or happiness 
does not happen, or when anything one dislikes happens.  Yet all are 
bound to change, that is part of the universal tilakkhana, exempting 
nibbana.  Nibbana, according to KS, is the ultimate peace since it 
does not change, it does not arise nor fall away, being permanent.  
Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be very subtle, as in 
each time the body sense is in contact with something that is not 
causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can only be lobha or 
dosa as vedana, and no upekkha.  Or it can be very strong aversion to 
something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest form, a thundering 
anger.  All day the dosa in the subtle forms accompany us, ready to 
blaze at the right conditions, and it is better to know it as such, a 
bad accumulation no one is without except the anagami upwards.

Meanwhile everything changes, the horrible experience you had is in 
fact memory at this time, real as it may seem even now.  As KS said, 
even the greatest physical pain could not last 24 hrs a day, since all 
the other present arammana arise through other dvara, especially the 
bhavanga.  Even when there is physical pain arising, it can't last all 
of an entire minute, since one can still see, hear, think etc, all 
through.  Which is why a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka was able to study the 
pain as a tiger ate him from the foot up; and attain arahantship 
before he died.  My point is that whatever dosa or dukkha dukkha 
vedana one has, the Buddha taught us that the mind is also very 
important in adding or attenuating the dosa arising from it.  As KS 
said, the initial pain is unavoidable kamma, but the worrying and 
trouble is our own accumulations at work.  I quote from 'Birth, Age, 
Illness and Death' in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >,

While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could 
not die.  No matter what we do, we could not.  Generally, dukkha of 
the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would 
be worries.  The illness would be like being stabbed by the first 
arrow.  However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow 
that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse.  No matter 
how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since 
to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites.  If there 
were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. 

To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly 
see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also.  When 
there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and 
trouble to it.  To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought 
that does not help in any way.  When there is illness we should take 
care of it without wasting time worrying about it. 

(End quote)

Of course when there are conditions anything can arise, but the Buddha 
teaches us to do the best we can in any given situation and be 'brave 
and cheerful' in the dhamma, and keep studying the present moment 
which can bring us wisdom in the most horrible situations.  With our 
accumulations it might sound just this side of madness, but you see 
many situations in the Tipitaka of this happening, therefore it must 
be possible and worth studying and proving even in real life 
situations.  One thing that is true is that it can't last 24 hrs a 
day, even if it is our accumulation to think of it over and over, but 
in fact it is past, dear Cybele, now just a memory, another thought.  
Luckily it is now over, the tiger didn't really get you, don't let him 
win now!!!  As Num said, it is much better to be cautious and not let 
it have the conditions to happen again, do be careful and it is wiser 
to be accompanied in certain neighborhoods, and not give akusala 
vipaka much condition to arise.  When things happen after all the 
precautions have been taken we can really see that it was meant to be, 
but most of the time we should do our best not to condone to the wrong 
conditions as far as one can without worrying about it too much.  

We must keep our lives in order to study the dhamma, as I once said to 
some friends, I'm not so afraid of dying or even rebirth, it is the 
learning process that is so daunting!!!  Especially since none can 
guarantee that we should even hear the dhamma in our next lifetimes.  
So this is the lifetime we can count on to accumulate as much as we 
can learn, of this supreme treasure we have found, and the only one we 
can take with us to wherever we are going next.  The realities that 
appear to be studied might not appeal to your lobha, but might give 
you knowledge of other strong tendencies, (which might or might not 
arise again from conditions in the future), arising in alternation 
with present arammana, through the eyes, ears, etc., even as you read 
this.  Studying it would not only keep akusala thoughts and memories 
from arising at that citta moment, but also give you that much more 
knowledge of realities as they really are.  Nothing, even the most 
unpleasant, really last; but as Num said, give yourself time to let go 
and become your sunny self again, possibly with even more wisdom of 
things as they really are.

May the Buddha's 'bravery and cheerfulness' arise in you,

Amara

 
4322 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mundane Eightfold Path factors

 
  Mike

Many thanks for bringing up the 'Great Forty' sutta,
which as you say seems to be relevant to the subject
of the Eightfold Path.  I would like to respond after
I have had a chance to read the sutta more fully.

Just a quick comment at this stage.  The 5 factors
dealt with in detail in the sutta are not the 5
factors of the mundane Eightfold Path I was referring
to, namely the eight Path factors excluding the 3
abstinences (virati) of right speech, action and
livelihood.  So the mundane path factors as i know
them do include right concentration and right
mindfulness.

Jon

--- mike nease wrote: > Jon,
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott
> <Jon> wrote:
> 
> > Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a
> > reference to the supramundane path, so
> descriptions of
> > the path factors in that same context must be read
> > accordingly.
> > 
> > Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors
> instead
> > of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in
> the
> > suttas, as far as I know.  This is the development
> of
> > satipatthana.
> 
> I ran across this great discourse by chance this
> morning, and it 
> seems to me to address what I was aiming at when I
> mistakenly 
> referred to the 'mundane eightfold path'.
> 
> "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is
> of two sorts: 
> There is right view with fermentations [asava],
> siding with merit, 
> resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and
> there is noble right 
> view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor
> of the path."
> 
> Majjhima Nikaya 117
> Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta
> The Great Forty
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html
> 
> This goes on to describe the other path factors in
> the same way--with 
> asavas and (Noble) without asavas.
> 
> "And what is the right view that is without
> fermentations, 
> transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment,
> the faculty of 
> discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis
> of qualities as a 
> factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view
> in one developing 
> the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is
> free from 
> fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble
> path. This is the 
> right view that is without fermentations,
> transcendent, a factor of 
> the path."
> 
> Am I mistaken in reading into this that there is a
> Noble Eightfold 
> path for the Ariyapuggala and a (non-Noble)
> ('five-fold') path for 
> the puthujjana?
> 
> > But again, the description of the path factors is
> > descriptive of the functions of the relevant
> cetasikas
> > that arise at that moment, rather than being a
> > direction to the listener to develop each of those
> > factors individually.
> 
> Further on, he says of each of the first five path
> factors that 
> 'right view, right effort and right mindfulness run
> and circle 
> around' it, and that 'this is one's right
> mindfulness'. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into
> right view: This is 
> one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong
> view & to enter & 
> remain in right view: This is one's right
> mindfulness. Thus these 
> three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right
> mindfulness -- 
> run & circle around right view. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into
> right resolve: 
> This is one's right effort. One is mindful to
> abandon wrong resolve & 
> to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's
> right mindfulness. 
> Thus these three qualities -- right view, right
> effort, & right 
> mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into
> right speech: This 
> is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon
> wrong speech & to 
> enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right
> mindfulness. Thus 
> these three qualities -- right view, right effort, &
> right 
> mindfulness -- run & circle around right speech. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into
> right action: This 
> is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon
> wrong action & to 
> enter & remain in right action: This is one's right
> mindfulness. Thus 
> these three qualities -- right view, right effort, &
> right 
> mindfulness -- run & circle around right action. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter
> into right 
> livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is
> mindful to abandon 
> wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right
> livelihood: This is 
> one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities
> -- right view, 
> right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle
> around right 
> livelihood.
> 
> Interestingly, it stops here--right effort and right
> mindfulness are 
> present only by 'running and circling around' the
> first five factors 
> and there is no mention at all of (non-Noble) right
> concentration. 
> 
> I take these to be the five factors of the mundane
> path you mention 
> above? So it seems that all of the first five path
> factors, 'run and 
> circled around by right view, right effort and right
> mindfulness' ARE 
> right mindfulness AND right effort (as opposed to
> Noble Right 
> Mindfulness and Noble Right Effort).  This would
> seem to support your 
> statement above that, "Yes, there is indeed a
> mundane path (5 factors 
> instead of 8), but not mentioned as such by that
> name in the suttas, 
> as far as I know.  This is the development of
> satipatthana." Is this 
> what you were referring to?
> 
> This seems to stress a very specific emphasis on and
> relationship 
> between right view, right effort and right
> mindfulness that I don't 
> recall seeing elsewhere in the Suttanta or the
> Vinaya.
> 
> I still haven't sorted out all the implications of
> this.  It does 
> seem to me at least to place some importance on
> mundane right view, 
> right thought, right speech, right action, right
> livelihood and right 
> effort to the puthujjana.  Does this make sense to
> your reading?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> mike
> 




 
4323 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:25am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Erik,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 
>
> Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti
> meaning "concept"--
> MUST be a sankhara dhamma,

Yes, this is a direct disagreement.  My understanding of
pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and
therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are
conditioned.)  However, because I lack any evidence in the
theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful
to discuss this.  Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further
passages where we can discuss this further.

> So I think we may have different understanding of
> pannatti if you say
> it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify
> if I'm messing up
> the definition of it, and what you mean by
> lacking characteristics.

What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas
lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly
experienceable paramatha characteristics.  You cannot
directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can
directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color,
visible objects, etc).

> To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to
> have enough of a
> characteristic to perform the function of
> characterizing what it's
> referring to. That would be the "characteristic"
> of that given
> pannatti to my understanding.

The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics
and functions.  The only thing pannatti has is it is an
aramana pacaya to the cittas.  It doesn't have paramatha
characteristics.  This brings up the interesting subject of
something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to
something that "is there".

I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow
us to reach an amiccable conclusions.

kom

 
4324 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma)

 
  Dear Robert,

Bhavana:  becoming; a dwelling place.

Bhaavanaa: cultivation

(from Paliwords).

mike 
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Dear mike,
> Could you explain the difference?
> Robert
> > (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are
> two
> > different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's
> > excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @
> > http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm)
> >  
> > mike



 
4325 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Cybele,

Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos nas diferentes línguas faladas
nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação.

Abraços da terrinha,

Metta,
Leonardo

Ps:  Friends, sorry for the portuguese ...




----- Original Message -----
From: "Amara" 
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman


>
>
> > Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in
> > recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of
> delayed
> > reaction I suppose.
> > I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am
> feeling
> > depressed.
> > Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that
> the
> > survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode.
> > But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I
> felt to
> > share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my
> emotions.
>
>
> Dear Cybele,
>
> It is indeed wonderful that you think of the dhamma in such a
> situation, in fact what better time to study realities as they arise,
> although for us it must be cause for much dosa, as the strong memory
> arises from conditions now.  You in your optimistic attitude and warm
> nature would probably be more used to lobha than dosa but you might
> see that what the Buddha taught; that lobha is the cause of dosa, is
> very true too.  One is attached to the happy feeling that is followed
> by the unpleasant whenever the desired feeling subsides, or happiness
> does not happen, or when anything one dislikes happens.  Yet all are
> bound to change, that is part of the universal tilakkhana, exempting
> nibbana.  Nibbana, according to KS, is the ultimate peace since it
> does not change, it does not arise nor fall away, being permanent.
> Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be very subtle, as in
> each time the body sense is in contact with something that is not
> causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can only be lobha or
> dosa as vedana, and no upekkha.  Or it can be very strong aversion to
> something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest form, a thundering
> anger.  All day the dosa in the subtle forms accompany us, ready to
> blaze at the right conditions, and it is better to know it as such, a
> bad accumulation no one is without except the anagami upwards.
>
> Meanwhile everything changes, the horrible experience you had is in
> fact memory at this time, real as it may seem even now.  As KS said,
> even the greatest physical pain could not last 24 hrs a day, since all
> the other present arammana arise through other dvara, especially the
> bhavanga.  Even when there is physical pain arising, it can't last all
> of an entire minute, since one can still see, hear, think etc, all
> through.  Which is why a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka was able to study the
> pain as a tiger ate him from the foot up; and attain arahantship
> before he died.  My point is that whatever dosa or dukkha dukkha
> vedana one has, the Buddha taught us that the mind is also very
> important in adding or attenuating the dosa arising from it.  As KS
> said, the initial pain is unavoidable kamma, but the worrying and
> trouble is our own accumulations at work.  I quote from 'Birth, Age,
> Illness and Death' in the advanced section of
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >,
>
> While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could
> not die.  No matter what we do, we could not.  Generally, dukkha of
> the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would
> be worries.  The illness would be like being stabbed by the first
> arrow.  However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow
> that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse.  No matter
> how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since
> to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites.  If there
> were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one.
>
> To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly
> see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also.  When
> there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and
> trouble to it.  To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought
> that does not help in any way.  When there is illness we should take
> care of it without wasting time worrying about it.
>
> (End quote)
>
> Of course when there are conditions anything can arise, but the Buddha
> teaches us to do the best we can in any given situation and be 'brave
> and cheerful' in the dhamma, and keep studying the present moment
> which can bring us wisdom in the most horrible situations.  With our
> accumulations it might sound just this side of madness, but you see
> many situations in the Tipitaka of this happening, therefore it must
> be possible and worth studying and proving even in real life
> situations.  One thing that is true is that it can't last 24 hrs a
> day, even if it is our accumulation to think of it over and over, but
> in fact it is past, dear Cybele, now just a memory, another thought.
> Luckily it is now over, the tiger didn't really get you, don't let him
> win now!!!  As Num said, it is much better to be cautious and not let
> it have the conditions to happen again, do be careful and it is wiser
> to be accompanied in certain neighborhoods, and not give akusala
> vipaka much condition to arise.  When things happen after all the
> precautions have been taken we can really see that it was meant to be,
> but most of the time we should do our best not to condone to the wrong
> conditions as far as one can without worrying about it too much.
>
> We must keep our lives in order to study the dhamma, as I once said to
> some friends, I'm not so afraid of dying or even rebirth, it is the
> learning process that is so daunting!!!  Especially since none can
> guarantee that we should even hear the dhamma in our next lifetimes.
> So this is the lifetime we can count on to accumulate as much as we
> can learn, of this supreme treasure we have found, and the only one we
> can take with us to wherever we are going next.  The realities that
> appear to be studied might not appeal to your lobha, but might give
> you knowledge of other strong tendencies, (which might or might not
> arise again from conditions in the future), arising in alternation
> with present arammana, through the eyes, ears, etc., even as you read
> this.  Studying it would not only keep akusala thoughts and memories
> from arising at that citta moment, but also give you that much more
> knowledge of realities as they really are.  Nothing, even the most
> unpleasant, really last; but as Num said, give yourself time to let go
> and become your sunny self again, possibly with even more wisdom of
> things as they really are.
>
> May the Buddha's 'bravery and cheerfulness' arise in you,
>
> Amara
>


 
4326 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:31am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > > "Just for the papanca of it"...
> I am keeping that one, Amara! I love it! :)

Hi, Erik,

Loved most of your recent posts!

Would also like to recommend you take a look at the chapter of 
pannatti in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced section 
of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > , by the way!

Enjoy!!!
=^_^=
Amara

 
 
4327 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mundane Eightfold Path factors

 
  Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
read the sutta more fully. 

> Just a quick comment at this stage.  The 5 factors
> dealt with in detail in the sutta are not the 5
> factors of the mundane Eightfold Path I was
> referring to, namely the eight Path factors 
> excluding the 3 abstinences (virati) of right 
> speech, action and livelihood.  So the mundane path
> factors as i know them do include right 
> concentration and right mindfulness.

A different five--interesting.  I look forward to
reading more after you've read the Great Forty.

mike


 
4328 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Leonardo

--- Leonardo Neves  wrote: > 
> Cybele,
> 
> Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos
> nas diferentes línguas faladas
> nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação.
> 
> Abraços da terrinha,
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo
> 
> Ps:  Friends, sorry for the portuguese ...

That's OK, as long as it's dhamma!!

Good to hear from one of our 'lurking' members.

Jon


 
4329 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:35am
Subject: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Cybele

I, too, was very sorry to hear about you unfortunate
incident, and hope that you are managing OK now.  It
must have been an awful experience.

Jon.



 
4330 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:43am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > Well, after a long discussion with Kom, I still cannot come to the 
clear 
> definition and character of sanna, (as well as manasikara, vitakka 
and 
> vicara).
> 
> So far, I understand that sanna marks or registers arammana as well 
as 
> performs a function of recallection in memory retrival process.  I 
mentioned 
> that memory basically has three characters, registration, retention 
and 
> recall.   You also said the power of sanna varies from citta to 
citta and 
> also by other paccaya.   


Dear K. Num,

It's all as intricate as 'we' are, since it forms our 'selves'!!!  But 
I have just been telling Betty how amazing it is to follow your 
progress in acquiring at least the theoretical knowledge of the 
dhamma, in so short a time.  Anumodana!


> Rgding Anantarupanissaya-paccaya and Anantara paccaya, I think 
> Anantarupanissaya-paccaya  is kind of subset of anantara paccaya and 
overlaps 
> with anatara paccaya in a sense that it causes the immediate 
subsequent-citta 
> the same kind of citta but anatara can cause any kinds of citta 
arise 
> immediately afterward.


Can we say that anatara is the regarding it from an 'eternal' point of 
view, from kamma of eternities past that would keep the succession of 
citta going on into the infinite future?  Anantarupa nissaya is more 
specific in that once the citta has done something like played the 
video game for the first time, although it must have played an 
infinite variety of games before through samsara.  It would be cause 
for lobha for the video game in the future, for that kind of citta to 
arise, (upanissaya paccaya) but arise in the right order as well, not 
for example having lobha arise before phassa. 

Another point I would like to mention is that what you call 
overlapping is to me different perspectives or approaches to the same 
problem, for example you can study the citta from the angle of its 
nature (or 'birth', in pali 'jati',); or from the kind of cetasika 
that arises with it, or from its function, etc.  Put together it 
should still be the same citta, just from different angles, much like 
the multiple camera system that gives you a 3 dimensional look at an 
event, remember 'The Matrix'?  You will find this in all the 'ancient' 
analysis of the dhamma!!!  But all this to show that there is in fact 
no self or anything that we can experience that lasts, all arise from 
conditions and are under no one's control.  And still we need to hear 
more details, always.  ...Until the study is finally finished, with 
arahantship!!!

> Dhamma is deep, glad that I have to share and study with you.

Loving all of it myself!!!

>I need to study more, mean more questions to come :)

Love you questions, they make me exercise the gray matter muscles-  
(…you think it might help keep Alzheimer's at any distance?) 
=^_^=
Amara

 
4331 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  > Ps:  Friends, sorry for the portuguese ...
 
> That's OK, as long as it's dhamma!!

        Yes, it's portuguese dhamma ! :-)) 
 
> Good to hear from one of our 'lurking' members.

Metta,
Leonardo one of the lurking dhamma friends :-)

 
4332 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma)

 
  Thanks mike,
just to clarify. whenever I write bhavana I mean development.
Not the first meaning. Bhavana is a common way of writing
bhaavanaa. Just as daana is most often written dana.
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Bhavana:  becoming; a dwelling place.
> 
> Bhaavanaa: cultivation
> 
> (from Paliwords).
> 
> mike 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> > Dear mike,
> > Could you explain the difference?
> > Robert
> > > (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are
> > two
> > > different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's
> > > excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @
> > > http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm)
> > >  
> > > mike
> > > 
> > > 



 
4333 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:59am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  --- "Leonardo Neves"  wrote:
> 
> Cybele,
> 
> Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos nas diferentes 
línguas faladas
> nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação.
> 
> Abraços da terrinha,
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo
> 
> Ps:  Friends, sorry for the portuguese ...


Dear Leonardo,

Your tender metta can be felt through any language curtain... as 
always,

Anumodana,

Amara

 
4334 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, Kom (and Erik, and all) -

In a message dated 3/25/01 10:27:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kom writes:


> Dear Erik,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik 
> >
> > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti
> > meaning "concept"--
> > MUST be a sankhara dhamma,
> 
> Yes, this is a direct disagreement.  My understanding of
> pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and
> therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are
> conditioned.)  However, because I lack any evidence in the
> theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful
> to discuss this.  Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further
> passages where we can discuss this further.
> 
> > So I think we may have different understanding of
> > pannatti if you say
> > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify
> > if I'm messing up
> > the definition of it, and what you mean by
> > lacking characteristics.
> 
> What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas
> lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly
> experienceable paramatha characteristics.  You cannot
> directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can
> directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color,
> visible objects, etc).
> 
> > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to
> > have enough of a
> > characteristic to perform the function of
> > characterizing what it's
> > referring to. That would be the "characteristic"
> > of that given
> > pannatti to my understanding.
> 
> The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics
> and functions.  The only thing pannatti has is it is an
> aramana pacaya to the cittas.  It doesn't have paramatha
> characteristics.  This brings up the interesting subject of
> something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to
> something that "is there".
> 
> I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow
> us to reach an amiccable conclusions.
> 
> kom
> 
=================================
       I think that what may be going on here is that the term 'pannatti' / 
'concept' is being used here to stand for what I am used to thinking as the 
*referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a thought. There are concepts 
such as 'color' which have as reference what are here called paramattha 
dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' which seem to reference things, 
but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena that are direct elements of 
experience. Without the concept of 'color', we can still detect colors 
(though we may not so characterize them). Colors, as objects, do not exist 
independent of being observed, but they *can* exist independent of the 
*concept* of 'color'. On the other hand, while it *seems* that we experience 
a car, we actually only experience a spatial and temporal pattern of 
paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the thought / concept of 'car' to 
refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car per se is not to be found 
independent of the concept of car, it is empty and without characteristic. In 
a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I see this matter.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4335 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear  Amara,


> Your tender metta can be felt through any language curtain... as
> always,
> Anumodana,
> Amara

        Your  lovely words make me feel at home.
        The thing the most I like, as a compulsive lurker :-), is to listen the
profound dhamma in this list - the best I've ever met.

Metta,
Leonardo

 
4336 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, all -

       Let me add a slight addendum as a clarification. In a message dated 
3/25/01 11:03:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, Howard writes:


> There are concepts 
> such as 'color' which have as reference what are here called paramattha 
> dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' which seem to reference 
> things, 
> but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena that are direct elements of 
> 
===============================
       Even in the case of a concept such as 'color', the reference is 
without characteristic. While particular colors of particular objects are 
directly observed phenomena, the referent of the concept 'color' is intended 
to be something we might call "color-in-general", an alleged "thing" which 
has never been observed, and which certainly is without characteristic. Thus, 
*every* concept, from 'color' to 'car' is similar in this respect.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4337 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:41pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Howard,

Thanks for contributing.  It is always good to hear a
well-thought-out, well-written, in its most nitty-gritty
details, even when we disagree.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard 
>
>        I think that what may be going on here is
> that the term 'pannatti' /
> 'concept' is being used here to stand for what I
> am used to thinking as the
> *referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a
> thought. There are concepts
> such as 'color' which have as reference what are
> here called paramattha
> dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car'
> which seem to reference things,
> but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena
> that are direct elements of
> experience. Without the concept of 'color', we
> can still detect colors
> (though we may not so characterize them).

Agreed so far.  Although I wonder if anybody lives without
the concepts?

> Colors,
> as objects, do not exist
> independent of being observed, but they *can*
> exist independent of the
> *concept* of 'color'.

I think we discuss this disagreement in the past
(epistemological discussions in messages 3737, 3738, 3740,
3747, and 3750).  I think paramatha objects exist
independent of being observed, although at that point, a
paramatha object wouldn't be an aramana pacaya to the
arising of a nama.

> On the other hand, while it
> *seems* that we experience
> a car, we actually only experience a spatial and
> temporal pattern of
> paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the
> thought / concept of 'car' to
> refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car
> per se is not to be found
> independent of the concept of car, it is empty
> and without characteristic. In
> a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I
> see this matter.
>

I think our views are similar on this point.  I say
(grossly) it doesn't exist because it has no paramatha
characteristics.

kom

 
4338 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 3/25/01 11:42:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kom writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> Thanks for contributing.  It is always good to hear a
> well-thought-out, well-written, in its most nitty-gritty
> details, even when we disagree.
> 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thanks for the flattering words. Actually, as I read on it seems we 
disagree only on one aspect here.
----------------------------------------------------------------


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Howard 
> >
> >        I think that what may be going on here is
> > that the term 'pannatti' /
> > 'concept' is being used here to stand for what I
> > am used to thinking as the
> > *referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a
> > thought. There are concepts
> > such as 'color' which have as reference what are
> > here called paramattha
> > dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car'
> > which seem to reference things,
> > but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena
> > that are direct elements of
> > experience. Without the concept of 'color', we
> > can still detect colors
> > (though we may not so characterize them).
> 
> Agreed so far.  Although I wonder if anybody lives without
> the concepts?
> 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Oh, definitely not! Concepts are essential for humans to live in this 
world. We just shouldn't get "caught" by them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> > Colors,
> > as objects, do not exist
> > independent of being observed, but they *can*
> > exist independent of the
> > *concept* of 'color'.
> 
> I think we discuss this disagreement in the past
> (epistemological discussions in messages 3737, 3738, 3740,
> 3747, and 3750).  I think paramatha objects exist
> independent of being observed, although at that point, a
> paramatha object wouldn't be an aramana pacaya to the
> arising of a nama.
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes, this is a point of disagreement.
-------------------------------------------------------


> 
> > On the other hand, while it
> > *seems* that we experience
> > a car, we actually only experience a spatial and
> > temporal pattern of
> > paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the
> > thought / concept of 'car' to
> > refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car
> > per se is not to be found
> > independent of the concept of car, it is empty
> > and without characteristic. In
> > a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I
> > see this matter.
> >
> 
> I think our views are similar on this point.  I say
> (grossly) it doesn't exist because it has no paramatha
> characteristics.
> 
> kom
> 
==================================
Thanks for writing, Kom.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4339 From: moderators 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:27pm
Subject: List guidelines-Shin

 
  Dear Shin,

Please take careful not of the guidelines for this list. Petitions 
(however worthy the cause) are NOT permitted. 

Thank you for your support.

kind regards,

Jon & Sarah

 
4340 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:12pm
Subject: paccaya- conditions

 
  Dear Kom & Amara,

I've been appreciating all your dynamic correspondence
and am usually a couple of days behind. Now I'm only
one day behind, so pls read any of my comments in that
light!!

1. anantara (proximity) and samanantara (contguity)
conditions.
Kom, you mentioned that in A.Santi's explanation that
these were the same but you were not convinced. Let me
convince you!!
From U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations:
'There is no difference between these two conditions
as regards the states involved and the conditioning
forces which bring about the relations.  They difer
only in terms as stated in Vism. 'The difference here
is only in the letter (word), there is none in the
meaning.' 

He goes on to say that for some it is helpful to
understand that there is no chance for 'a break in the
sequence of mental states b/c it causes a subsequent
mental state to arise immediately after' but for
others it is more helpful to hear that although the
subsequent state arises 'there is no chance for it to
arise as it likes but does so in accordance with the
fixed order of mental process....'

I've heard K.Sujin say just the same.

2. Anantara-upanissaya paccaya (proximity decisive-
support condition)

I'm quoting from the same book:
'Difference from anantara (proximity).
Anantara-upanissaya paccaya is the same as anantara
paccaya with respect to the states involved but there
is a slight difference in the forces by which they are
related.  The force which causes the subsequent
conditioned states of mentality to arise immediately
after the ceasing of the preceding states, the
conditioning states, is known as proximity force.  But
the force which causes the subsequewnt conditioned
states of mentality to aise because they are strongly
dependent on the ceasing of the preceding states, the
conditioning states, is known as anantara upanissaya
paccaya.'

I'm not sure if that helps at all...

To all,
I'm sure many on the list will wonder why we would be
interested in studying these details at all. I think
the value is only in as much as it can help us to know
more about the present realities. We can see (in
theory) that for any reality to arise at the present
moment, there are a number of very complex conditions
working together to form up the given reality. It's
not just a matter of kamma cause and effect, although
kamma is one very important condition. 

We may wonder why Cybele had her unpleasant experience
or why she was spared worse. By knowing just a little
about conditions, we can see how impossible it is to
ever know why the realities experienced now are just
the way they are but we learn to have confidence that
they could not be any different. Like the ingredients
in a cake, given the ingredients and way of cooking,
how could it turn out differently? How could there be
any self in it? 

It's not necessary to learn all the details, but some
conditions such as arammana (object condition) become
more obvious with awareness of realities. We should
always keep the purpose of our studies in mind unless
we are just out to have fun 'for the sake of
papanca'!!

Sarah


 
4341 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:20pm
Subject: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book

 
  Dear Betty & Tom,

The heading is to get Tom's attention. Tom is my 21yr
old nephew in England. He's completely new to
Buddhism, Betty, but he has joined the list recently
and is lurking in the background to see if he can
learn anything.

Betty, before you went to Turkey (hope you had a good
trip btw), you asked for suggestions for a book for
raw beginners. There wasn't much (any?) response,
probably because it was around the same time Erik made
his grand debut.

I'm just trying to read Tom's mind a little, to see if
this helps give you any clues:

1. He would know no pali words at all
2. he probably knows a little about the life story of
the buddha
3. He's probably heard about nibbana, maybe the noble
truth of suffering and I doubt much else.
4. He would know something about the Dalai Lama

He'd probably like to hear about:

1. What are the 'core' teachings in brief
2. What is different from other religions
3. Why people like his aunt (who he seldom sees) were
brought up strictly as Christians and then became
Buddhists
4. Whether all kinds of Buddhism are the same
5. How it helps in life, especially when one doesn't
have any special problems

Maybe others will add their notes or comments. Tom, it
would help Betty and the rest of us a lot if you would
reply to this and let us know what you are interested
to find out. Also pls check out the messages under the
heading 'new to the list and new to Buddhism' in the
files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm

Betty & Tom, I'm sure others will tell you what their
recommended books for beginners are if you ask.

Tom, are the beaches and country lanes around your
house still banned b/c of the mad cow disease? Hope
the job's going well.

Best wishes, 

Sarah



 
4342 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Dana & Bhavana

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Thanks mike,
> just to clarify. whenever I write bhavana I mean
> development.
> Not the first meaning. Bhavana is a common way of
> writing
> bhaavanaa. Just as daana is most often written dana.
> robert

Right--thanks.

mike


 
4343 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:34pm
Subject: Welcome to old friends

 
  Dear Steve & Diane,

I've just been looking in vain for your message on
list to reply to but I'm afraid it's got lost in all
the others.

Anyway, it's great you've got here and I'd be very
interested to hear how you're finding the list so far.
It's very busy at the moment, I know.

I have fond memories of our dhamma discussions in Hong
Kong and with Steve in Jasper, Canada. We're
collecting a few Canadians on list:
Jim A in Ontario, Ann in Vancouver, Joyce in Ontario
(I think) and now you in Edmonton...I'm sure there are
others too...

It sounds wonderful to have sold your businesses and
to have more time for dhamma travels and activities.
Please spare us a little with any comments or
questions.

Best wishes to you both,
Sarah

p.s. Joyce, hope to hear from you again too!




 
4344 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mana :pride and esteem

 
  Dear Num & Erik,

I particularly appreciated this post below, Num, with
the account of Sariputta. Several years ago with Khun
Sujin in India, I remember there was a lot of
discussion about the value of considering oneself as a
dustrag. There's a very long way to go (for me)!

I just want to add one quote which I like a lot from
the Atthasalini (!!, Part 1X, 111.256):

'..Herein conceit is fancying (deeming, vain
imagining).  It has haughtiness as characteristic,
self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self
like) a banner as manifestation, greed dissociated
from opinionativeness as proximate cause, and should
be regarded as (a form of) lunacy.'

I'm not sure that 'opinionativeness' exists in
English, but I am sure that this 'lunacy' raises its
ugly head many, many times in a day. Thank you for the
good reminders. Btw to all, mana is indicative of
clinging to self but does not necessarily indicate
wrong view of self. As we all know, the sotapanna has
the former, but not the latter.

Num, for an extra treat, I'd like to add an old
message from Mike because I thionk it's relevant. The
first qualities mentioned should be noted:

--- Mike wrote:
>  Robert asked me to post it
> to the group for comments.  So, excerpted from
Access to Insight at 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-30.html,
> 
> Eight Thoughts of a Great Person
> 
> As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him,
"Good, 
> Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these
thoughts of a 
> great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest,
not for one who 
> is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is
content, not for 
> one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is
reclusive, not 
> for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one
whose persistence is 
> aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for
one whose 
> mindfulness is established, not for one whose
mindfulness is 
> confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is
centered, not for one 
> whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one
endowed with 
> discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.'
Now then, 
> Anuruddha, think the eighth thought of a great
person: 'This Dhamma 
> is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights
in non-
> complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in
complication.'
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30
> Anuruddha Sutta
> To Anuruddha
> 

--- Num wrote: > Hi all,
> 
> As Erik brought up about mana.   I would  like to
> discuss and get some inputs 
> about mana cetasika.  How many different ways can
> mana cetasika manifest?  
> Pride, esteem, feeling of superiority, inferiority,
> equality, etc.  
> 
> I have read about Ven. Sariputta who said that he
> considered himself as only 
> a dustrag or a floormat.  His humbleness is really
> impressed me. I admire his 
> wisdom, his kindness, his patience and his
> humbleness.   I asked my self do I 
> like to feel as a dustrag,  definitely not. At time
> I thought about how being 
> ariyan feel like.  Like a dustrag!??    V.Sariputta
> is the foremost Bhuddha 
> disciple in wisdom 2nd only to the Buddha.   When
> his mom invited group of 
> monk for offering food, she was really mean and
> sarcastic to the monks.  
> V.Sariputta was calm and patient.   When he was
> wrongly accused by a young 
> monk, and after the Buddha cleared the accusation he
> even asked for a pardon 
> from the younger monk if he had offended him in any
> means.  A lot more 
> incidents rgd V.Sariputta's humbleness.
> 
> Recommended reading: The Life of Sariputta, 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html
> 
> 
> What's the consequence of mana?  Most people like to
> feel superior, like to 
> be approved.
> 
> 
> Num



 
4345 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed

 
  Dear cybele,

I'm also sorry to her about your very unpleasant
experience. I hadn't read the mails when I wrote to
you off-list.

We never know what will happen at any given moment or
how we will react, do we? I have a friend (also in
London as it happens) who is really peace-loving and
does lots of yoga for relaxation. She was sitting in
her car in Westminster, with the window open outside
her son's prestigious school, when 2 guys came up and
put their arms through the window to grab her bag. She
went totally beserk and started fighting them and
ended up very badly hurt.... I think she was more
shocked by her reaction than by their actions (and she
still lost her bag). In other words, it's all very
well talking about how one keeps good sila, for
example, but we never know (unless we're a sotapanna)
how we'll react given different circumstances. She
said that what drove her crazy was the thought that
they came to rob her outside her little son's school! 

I'm so glad you were able to persuade the guy to let
you go (I had a very, very similar experience when I
was young(er!) in Israel). Take care wandering in
quiet streets on your own at night in London. At least
in Hong Kong, nowhere is quiet and personal attacks
are very, very rare. But still, who knows what vipaka
may bring?

Lots of warm blood on this list as you can see!

xxxSarah


 
4346 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:35pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:25:07 -0800
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
Dear Kom,
I will give the text here.only one pannatti is uncondition.We have two kinds of pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata pannatti(aparinipphana and anipphana).Avijjhamana pannatti like puggala,king ,son, etc are only anipphana  but not aparinipphana .So this kind of pannatti can be called half uncondition.It is  a condition dhamma for both kind of concepts except asankhata pannatti.see puggala pannatti text,atthakatha,tika and anutika.
from Teng Kee


> Dear Erik,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik 
> >
> > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti
> > meaning "concept"--
> > MUST be a sankhara dhamma,
> 
> Yes, this is a direct disagreement.  My understanding of
> pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and
> therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are
> conditioned.)  However, because I lack any evidence in the
> theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful
> to discuss this.  Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further
> passages where we can discuss this further.
> 
> > So I think we may have different understanding of
> > pannatti if you say
> > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify
> > if I'm messing up
> > the definition of it, and what you mean by
> > lacking characteristics.
> 
> What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas
> lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly
> experienceable paramatha characteristics.  You cannot
> directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can
> directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color,
> visible objects, etc).
> 
> > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to
> > have enough of a
> > characteristic to perform the function of
> > characterizing what it's
> > referring to. That would be the "characteristic"
> > of that given
> > pannatti to my understanding.
> 
> The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics
> and functions.  The only thing pannatti has is it is an
> aramana pacaya to the cittas.  It doesn't have paramatha
> characteristics.  This brings up the interesting subject of
> something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to
> something that "is there".
> 
> I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow
> us to reach an amiccable conclusions.
> 
> kom
> 


 
4347 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:51pm
Subject: Re: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book

 
  > The heading is to get Tom's attention. Tom is my 21yr
> old nephew in England. He's completely new to
> Buddhism, Betty, but he has joined the list recently
> and is lurking in the background to see if he can
> learn anything.


Dear Tom,

A warm welcome from your aunt's Thai friend!  If there are any 
questions I can help you with I shall be most happy to!


> Betty, before you went to Turkey (hope you had a good
> trip btw), you asked for suggestions for a book for
> raw beginners. There wasn't much (any?) response,
> probably because it was around the same time Erik made
> his grand debut.


Dear Sarah and Betty,

I think one other reason no one answered was because Betty was going 
abroad, and after that we probably got so involved with other issues. 
I think now is a great time to tackle this, especially since Tom is 
there now also.  Betty has been a much loved teacher to her students 
(and friends!  Are we still roommates for India?) for most of her 
life, Tom, you're lucky she's on the list! 


> I'm just trying to read Tom's mind a little, to see if
> this helps give you any clues:
> 
> 1. He would know no pali words at all
> 2. he probably knows a little about the life story of
> the buddha
> 3. He's probably heard about nibbana, maybe the noble
> truth of suffering and I doubt much else.
> 4. He would know something about the Dalai Lama
> 
> He'd probably like to hear about:
> 
> 1. What are the 'core' teachings in brief
> 2. What is different from other religions
> 3. Why people like his aunt (who he seldom sees) were
> brought up strictly as Christians and then became
> Buddhists
> 4. Whether all kinds of Buddhism are the same
> 5. How it helps in life, especially when one doesn't
> have any special problems
> 

I would like to ask Betty to begin with

1. the meanings of the word dhamma
2. how it is divided into nama and rupa
3. how that is categorized into the 4 paramatthadhamma

for a firm basis first, and work from there.  This is how I see the 
ideal beginner's book starting with!

What do you think, Betty?

Amara

 
4348 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  dear teng,
this matter is explained in Realities and Concepts by sujin
Boriharnwanaket. If you send me your address off-list I still
have a few copies left and will airmail it pronto.
robert
--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:25:07 -0800
> > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
> Dear Kom,
> I will give the text here.only one pannatti is uncondition.We
> have two kinds of pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and
> avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti are those
> khandha ,dhatu,ayatana pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and
> asankhata pannatti(aparinipphana and anipphana).Avijjhamana
> pannatti like puggala,king ,son, etc are only anipphana  but
> not aparinipphana .So this kind of pannatti can be called half
> uncondition.It is  a condition dhamma for both kind of
> concepts except asankhata pannatti.see puggala pannatti
> text,atthakatha,tika and anutika.
> from Teng Kee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Dear Erik,
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Erik 
> > >
> > > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti
> > > meaning "concept"--
> > > MUST be a sankhara dhamma,
> > 
> > Yes, this is a direct disagreement.  My understanding of
> > pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and
> > therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are
> > conditioned.)  However, because I lack any evidence in the
> > theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful
> > to discuss this.  Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further
> > passages where we can discuss this further.
> > 
> > > So I think we may have different understanding of
> > > pannatti if you say
> > > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify
> > > if I'm messing up
> > > the definition of it, and what you mean by
> > > lacking characteristics.
> > 
> > What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas
> > lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly
> > experienceable paramatha characteristics.  You cannot
> > directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can
> > directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color,
> > visible objects, etc).
> > 
> > > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to
> > > have enough of a
> > > characteristic to perform the function of
> > > characterizing what it's
> > > referring to. That would be the "characteristic"
> > > of that given
> > > pannatti to my understanding.
> > 
> > The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics
> > and functions.  The only thing pannatti has is it is an
> > aramana pacaya to the cittas.  It doesn't have paramatha
> > characteristics.  This brings up the interesting subject of
> > something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to
> > something that "is there".
> > 
> > I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow
> > us to reach an amiccable conclusions.
> > 
> > kom
> > 



 
4349 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:35pm
Subject: Re: cognize nibbana

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Erik
> (with apologies for getting your name wrong in my
> previous posts)

No problem. It's only a pannatti! :) And everyone knows to whom it 
refers, so it's performed its function. Also, I read your suggested 
posts, and commenting based on that...

> Whether or not concepts (pannatti) are conditioned
> realities (sankhara dhammas) must as you say depend to
> some extent on one's definition of the terms, but as
> far as the Pali canon is concerned I think the
> position is quite clear.
> 
> This is that there is a clear distinction between
> 'ultimate realities' (paramattha dhammas), which are
> 'with individual essence' (sabhava), on the one hand,
> and concepts (pannatti), which are 'without individual
> essence' (abhava) on the other.  The question of what
> exactly is meant by 'with/without individual essence'
> here also depends on one's definition.

The way I see this is that pannatti may lack their "own" essence (so 
do all dhammas) but they must take on the characteristic of what 
they're pointing to. How could it be otherwise? A pannatti has 
to "mark" an arammana somehow to distinguish it from another 
arammana. Otherwise there'd be no way to distinguish arammana A from 
arammana B, no way to distinguish "red" from "blue." Even if we speak 
of pannatti in relation paramattha dhammas--especially in relation to 
paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a distinguishing 
characteristic and still perform the function of "pointing to" the 
arammana? Also, to my understanding, pannatti are sammati-sacca, 
meaning that they are sankhara dhammas as well.

> Pannatti are entirely a creation of the mind, and
> therefore have no substance whatsoever.  

What dhamma has substance? Even rupa lacks essence, "substance," 
because it's anatta & anicca. This does not make pannatti unique in 
this regard. 

Also, I am curious to hear what the Abhidhamma position is on what is 
NOT a creation of the mind apart from nibbana. Would paramattha 
dhammas even "exist" without a nama there to perceive rupa? The 
better-known version of this question is, if a tree falls in the 
forest and there's no sota-vinnana there, is there a sound at all?

Other than that, thanks Jon!

 
4350 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Mike

>
>Dear Cybele,
>
>--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
>
> > I was assaulted by a man on the desert streets
> > and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a
> > knife and attempting sexual abuse with violence.
>
>In recent years both I and a close family member have
>been victims of criminal violence--my sister's far
>worse than my own.

More than anything else is the pungent taste of violence that is so bitter. 
Not the fact of being robbed and threatened but the violence itself that 
upsets most. You feel perplexed, stunned.


>
>In each case my first reaction was a strong impulse to
>hunt down the perpetrator and take revenge.  The
>though of 'scratching this itch' was a very pleasant
>one, and hard to let go.  Given your friendly nature,
>maybe you'll be able to bypass this stage.  Though it
>might be temoprarily subdued by cultivation of
>friendliness, compassion, gladness and equanimity,
>ultimately, the only freedom from this
>malice-begotten-malice is the arising of genuine
>understanding toward the 'perpetrator'--as Khun Sujin
>and Robert pointed out, 'no killer--no gun'.


Honestly I never thought of taking revenge; I was feeling almost sorry for 
both of us, for me having to submit to such brutality and for him being so 
poisoned by hatred to resort to violent means.

>
>I'm very glad you've come away physically unharmed.
>As Num said, do be careful.  This world is ruled by
>craving, malice and ignorance--any of us might be a
>victim at any time.

Well as I told we have to cope with the actual conditions in this very life 
and therefore I could not avoid what I experienced because anytime, anyplace 
it can happens.


>
>Thank you for this reminder of the actions that can
>result from passion and sensuality carried to their
>extremes.  A very sobering lesson on the importance of
>understanding the nature of the unwholesome roots.
>
>mike

I don't see it related with passion and sensuality but with evil and 
violence Mike.
I have a sensual and passionate nature and even when in the most exalted 
condition I would never act out a similar behaviour.
This is not about being unrestrained but about being blinded by hatred and 
yet he could get a glitter of consciousness because he released me.
However thanks for your kindness in being sympathetic.

Love
Cybele


 
4351 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed

 
  Dear Sarah

>
>Dear cybele,
>
>I'm also sorry to her about your very unpleasant
>experience. I hadn't read the mails when I wrote to
>you off-list.

Thanks for your sympathy.


>
>We never know what will happen at any given moment or
>how we will react, do we? I have a friend (also in
>London as it happens) who is really peace-loving and
>does lots of yoga for relaxation. She was sitting in
>her car in Westminster, with the window open outside
>her son's prestigious school, when 2 guys came up and
>put their arms through the window to grab her bag. She
>went totally beserk and started fighting them and
>ended up very badly hurt.... I think she was more
>shocked by her reaction than by their actions (and she
>still lost her bag). In other words, it's all very
>well talking about how one keeps good sila, for
>example, but we never know (unless we're a sotapanna)
>how we'll react given different circumstances. She
>said that what drove her crazy was the thought that
>they came to rob her outside her little son's school!


I don't feel anger like that I feel sadness, powerlessness, vulnerability.
I never thought of fighting as would be totally unreasonable due to the 
situation; I just felt to appeal to his heart, to show him my being without 
any defense and surrender to his compassion and somehow it worked out.
You know how absurd, while he released me and I walked away, quickening my 
pace, he continued shouting : 'you don't trust anybody, go, go but don't 
trust anybody!!'
I was startled.


>
>I'm so glad you were able to persuade the guy to let
>you go (I had a very, very similar experience when I
>was young(er!) in Israel). Take care wandering in
>quiet streets on your own at night in London. At least
>in Hong Kong, nowhere is quiet and personal attacks
>are very, very rare. But still, who knows what vipaka
>may bring?
>
>Lots of warm blood on this list as you can see!
>
>xxxSarah
>

Dear Sarah, well I am bit stuck in my perplexities but relieved that no 
actaul damage was done.
But you just feel...too bad.
I just need to stay quiet and calm: I just have a reaction of withdrawal 
perhaps trying to find a confort zone to take a rest.
I feel like I need to recharge myself, I can't take it anymore...'give me a 
break'. :-)
But I most appreciate the supportive response.

A big hug
Cybele

 
4352 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Jon

>Cybele
>
>I, too, was very sorry to hear about you unfortunate
>incident, and hope that you are managing OK now.  It
>must have been an awful experience.
>
>Jon.
>

I am not managing ok, but it's ok.
I am 'grieving' and is natural.
I will digest also this, I have such a stomach that eventually crunches 
everything.
Thank you for your support.

Cybele

 
4353 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Querido Leonardo

Voce me faz sentir saudades da minha gente tao sofrida e tao aberta e 
calorosa.
Muito obrigado pelos seus metta pensamentos e o seu carinho: eu agradeco de 
coracao.

Un abraco forte

Cybele

>>
>
>Cybele,
>
>Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos nas diferentes línguas 
>faladas
>nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação.
>
>Abraços da terrinha,
>
>Metta,
>Leonardo
>
>Ps:  Friends, sorry for the portuguese ...
>


 
4354 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Cybele & Leonardo,

May we have a translation please, when you use
Portuguese?

looking f/w to sharing,

Sarah

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> Querido Leonardo
> 
> Voce me faz sentir saudades da minha gente tao
> sofrida e tao aberta e 
> calorosa.
> Muito obrigado pelos seus metta pensamentos e o seu
> carinho: eu agradeco de 
> coracao.
> 
> Un abraco forte
> 
> Cybele
> 
> >>
> >
> >Cybele,
> >
> >Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos
> nas diferentes línguas 
> >faladas
> >nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação.
> >
> >Abraços da terrinha,
> >
> >Metta,
> >Leonardo
> >
> >Ps:  Friends, sorry for the portuguese ...



 
4355 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Howard

>>
>Hi, Cybele -

I was wondering when my favourite peace maker would drop a line... ;-)))

>=================================
>        Some psychologists say that depression is sometimes anger 
>misdirected
>towards oneself. Both anger and depression hurt the one who carries the
>emotion. Please don't let that dog's action have any more ill effect on you
>than the event itself directly did - let there be no repercussions. If you
>have to feel one or the other of anger and depression, choose anger so that
>at least it is appropriately directed. But, if you possibly can, please try
>to cultivate compassion, both for yourself and for the poor soul who has 
>sunk
>so low. I don't think that either anger or depression can survive long in 
>the
>face of compassion. Be well, and feel safe and secure. I have the sense,
>that, in a certain way, whatever should befall us, we are ultimately 
>"safe".
>May you feel the same.
>
>With metta,
>Howard


Howard I am grateful for your support and advice but see I am just grieving 
and is natural, otherwise would be self denial.
I feel flattened, a bit numb and like recovering; I feel sore spots but I am 
not bleeding. But I acknowledge the wounds.
I don't see the point of ignoring them but I confide that paying attention I 
am healing much more effectively.
I feel safe and secure in the Dhamma and I am sure that this inner 
conviction and faith rescued me from a worse fate.
Again I don't feel anger against my aggressor above all because he indeed 
released me and was somehow moved.
I am content I could keep this attitude but I am stunned, numb.
Violence is painful, it hurts, it destabilizes - I am just tired, all comes 
along in a period of great struggles and this is one more drop that makes it 
'enough is enough' but seems is never enough.
And I continue taking it and dealing with it and that's life.
Then or I develop strenght or I develop strenght... ;-)
I just need to take it easy, my Brazilian way of coping with emotional 
pressure. And be confident that I am capable to develop mental and emotional 
skills to understand the confusing pattern of my own life.

Love and respect
Cybele



 
4356 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, Erik (and Jon, and all) -

In a message dated 3/26/01 7:36:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erik writes:


> The way I see this is that pannatti may lack their "own" essence (so 
> do all dhammas) but they must take on the characteristic of what 
> they're pointing to. How could it be otherwise? A pannatti has 
> to "mark" an arammana somehow to distinguish it from another 
> arammana. Otherwise there'd be no way to distinguish arammana A from 
> arammana B, no way to distinguish "red" from "blue." Even if we speak 
> of pannatti in relation paramattha dhammas--especially in relation to 
> paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a distinguishing 
> characteristic and still perform the function of "pointing to" the 
> arammana? Also, to my understanding, pannatti are sammati-sacca, 
> meaning that they are sankhara dhammas as well.
> 
=================================
       I may be mistaken, but, as I wrote in my posts on this topic, I 
believe that where you and I are using 'pannatti' / 'concept' to refer to a 
thought/idea which subsumes a number of direct experiences that share common 
or related features, others are using the term to refer to the intended 
*referent* of the concept, i.e. the *category* subsumed. As I see it, that 
category-referent is not only never observed, but is, in fact, not 
observable. It is *merely* conceptual in the sense of being the 
*conventional* referent of the concept/thought. The individual instances 
subsumed by the concept/thought, and their common features, are observable, 
at least if the concept is grounded, and not like the proverbial "child of a 
barren woman", and the thought/concept itself is a mental element of 
experience, but not the "category" which is the intended referent of the 
concept. (In some cases, even the the apparent individual instances subsumed 
by a grounded thought/concept are not directly observable, because they are 
*themselves* actually only thoughts/concepts subsuming a collection of 
co-occurring experiences such as 'the car presently parked in my driveway', 
though it *seems* that they are directly observed objects.) 
       I believe that it is the abstract "category" that others here are 
referring to when they speak of 'pannatti'. The pannatti, itself, *in the 
sense* of the thought or concept is, indeed, conditioned by the experiences 
it subsumes, their common features, and the relations among them, and it 
thereby has characteristics. This is my take on the matter.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
4357 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Num,

Unfortunetly this was not 'the most terrible experience of my life' but I am 
straining the same; I am just a bit sore, I will recover.
For me Dhamma is life and therefore there is no distinction.
And I learn from the daily, fleeting moments os awareness.
As I told drop by drop they are filling up this mental container.
I just do not want to paly heroic; I need 'to grieve' and I do grieve.
That's all, no self deceit. I like it real. And we need rest in real life. I 
am giving myself time to recharge.
But dear Num if there is people like you in this world life can't be so bad 
after all! :-)
It's very encouraging feel your concern and warmth.
I really appreciate. And I am grateful.
See in the roads of life we have bad encounters as such nice meetings.
And we go further on not refusing the first or clinging to the latter.
Because we must proceed walking on the Path.
The sun is still shining even when the sky is cloudy I know it but what to 
do...I prefer a sunny day! But this is only my wishful thinking.
Reality is there and I am supposed to accept it as it is.
And is this is my effort of coping mindfully.
Thank you for caring about your crazy dhamma sister.

A hug
Cybele


>
>Hi again Cybele,
>
>It's sad to hear that you are feeling down and discourage.  Give your self
>some time to recover, you just have been through the most terrible 
>experience
>in your life.
>It's normal to feel disgusted, scared, doubtful, to blame
>yourself or to be angry.  I hope you use this experience as a great lesson
>for knowing yourself and dhamma and I hope it will never happen again.  One
>is more than enough, I know.  I like the idiom, our loss is our gain, mean 
>we
>can see thing in different angle and perspective and we can make best out 
>of
>everything.  We can learn from our best and worst moment, as you said life 
>is
>so real.
>
>Flashback and startled response usually happen for a while.  Sound like you
>are not that angry with the man at this point.  As you probably know, 
>emotion
>and feeling are conditional dhamma. They arise, sustain and fall away by
>causes and conditions.  We love ourselves as does everybody else.   Again 
>be
>careful, I think it's a very smart idea to have a company esp. when you are
>in this stage of feeling and emotion.
>
>Tell me you learn something from it and will let go and move on. Give
>yourself some time for recovery.
>
>I appreciate your kindness and thanks for sharing your experience and your
>"life" with us.
>
>Hope you get well very soon and again share with us a sunny radiant 
>attitude.
>
>Num
>



 
4358 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Erik

>
>--- "cybele chiodi" 
>wrote:
>
> > Then I suppose I was right dear Erik, you have chosen to IGNORE ME.
>
>You found me out! I have to confess, I have specifically chosen to
>ignore YOU. It's all about ignoring "Cybele, the dynamic meditator."
>It's been hard, I admit, but there you have it.

I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of compounded 
phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to confront 
REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping confrontation with 
your practice.
Theory is conforting isn't it, we feel secure discussing in such a logical 
fashion. Life seems almost so coeherent...


>
> > It means that I am not your 'cup of coffee' anyway it seems.
> > And means also that you are not so compassionate, don't you think
>that you
> > are being discriminative with me?
>
>You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad
>Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient
>beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give you
>an idea of just who you're dealing with here.


Again Erik - thinking of the Tibetan Path you have chosen and the Dalai Lama 
that is the embodiment of Compassion himself, it doesn't seems logical to me 
that you defend such paradoxal attitude.
Well personally I prefer the 'freedom of non escape' but you are entitled to 
your own choices.
But spiritual skills are not developed with erudition in my humble viewpoint 
but investigating our own minds and hearts.
Hope you soften up towards your fellow sentient beings.
Wisdom and Compassion are entwined together.

Metta
Cybele


 
4359 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samma-Vayama

 
  Mike

--- mike nease wrote: > Jon,
> I ran across this great discourse by chance this
> morning, and it 
> seems to me to address what I was aiming at when I
> mistakenly 
> referred to the 'mundane eightfold path'.
> 
> "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is
> of two sorts: 
> There is right view with fermentations [asava],
> siding with merit, 
> resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and
> there is noble right 
> view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor
> of the path."
> 
> Majjhima Nikaya 117
> Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta
> The Great Forty
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html
> 
> This goes on to describe the other path factors in
> the same way--with 
> asavas and (Noble) without asavas.
> 
> "And what is the right view that is without
> fermentations, 
> transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment,
> the faculty of 
> discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis
> of qualities as a 
> factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view
> in one developing 
> the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is
> free from 
> fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble
> path. This is the 
> right view that is without fermentations,
> transcendent, a factor of 
> the path."
> 
> Am I mistaken in reading into this that there is a
> Noble Eightfold 
> path for the Ariyapuggala and a (non-Noble)
> ('five-fold') path for 
> the puthujjana?

Certainly it is talking about the Noble Eightfold Path
which, as I understand it, means the 4 path moments
corresponding to the 4 stages of enlightenment.  At
those moments all 8 supramundane path factors arise
together.

There is also a mundane version of the path, at which
moment 5 path factors (the 8 path factors excluding
the 3 abstinences) arise.  This is a moment of
satipatthana.  Although the factors of the mundane
path are not of course at the supramundane level, they
nevertheless lead in that direction.  However, I do
not see any specific reference to the mundane path in
this sutta.

The mundane version of the supramundane path factors
mentioned in the sutta are something different again. 
They are, in layman’s terms, ordinary moments of
kusala.  They are moments of kusala that are not
moments of satipatthana.  They differ from the mundane
path factors mentioned above in that they lead to
rebirth and continued existence rather than in the
direction of the supramundane path.  That is why, in
the first of the passages cited in your message above,
mundane right view is described as ‘resulting in the
acquisitions [of becoming]’.  This would not be an
appropriate description for a moment of satipatthana
(ie. a  mundane path moment).

> Further on, he says of each of the first five path
> factors that 
> 'right view, right effort and right mindfulness run
> and circle 
> around' it, and that 'this is one's right
> mindfulness'. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into
> right view: This is 
> one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong
> view & to enter & 
> remain in right view: This is one's right
> mindfulness. Thus these 
> three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right
> mindfulness -- 
> run & circle around right view. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into
> right resolve: 
> This is one's right effort. One is mindful to
> abandon wrong resolve & 
> to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's
> right mindfulness. 
> Thus these three qualities -- right view, right
> effort, & right 
> mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into
> right speech: This 
> is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon
> wrong speech & to 
> enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right
> mindfulness. Thus 
> these three qualities -- right view, right effort, &
> right 
> mindfulness -- run & circle around right speech. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into
> right action: This 
> is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon
> wrong action & to 
> enter & remain in right action: This is one's right
> mindfulness. Thus 
> these three qualities -- right view, right effort, &
> right 
> mindfulness -- run & circle around right action. 
> 
> "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter
> into right 
> livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is
> mindful to abandon 
> wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right
> livelihood: This is 
> one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities
> -- right view, 
> right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle
> around right 
> livelihood.
> 
> Interestingly, it stops here--right effort and right
> mindfulness are 
> present only by 'running and circling around' the
> first five factors 
> and there is no mention at all of (non-Noble) right
> concentration. 

The absence of any mention of right concentration
could be because the purpose of the sutta is to
explain what are the necessary supports for the
arising of supramundane right concentration (namely
the other seven path factors).

> This seems to stress a very specific emphasis on and
> relationship 
> between right view, right effort and right
> mindfulness that I don't 
> recall seeing elsewhere in the Suttanta or the
> Vinaya.

Yes, these 3 factors seem to be the basis for the
arising of all the other factors.

> Thanks in advance.
> 
> mike

I'm afraid I haven't addressed all your questions, but
I hope this is useful.  Thanks anyway for the
opportunity to look at this rather complex sutta.  It
is, as you say, a great discourse.

Jon



 
4360 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Observing consciousness does not work.
It is worked on.
Every time a conciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] happens, the observing 
consciousness is awakened.
In ordinary language, we say observing consciousness, as though it is a 
subject. Actually it is an object.
It is always very tricky to use the ordinary language to describe extra 
ordinary events.
All our understanding may all be the same, at a certain advanced level.
But to use ordinary language to agree that we understand the same may not be 
that easy.
The best way two people understand one another is when they sit side by side 
and one understand the other with no talking.
Just like when Buddha held a flower, Mahakasapa smiled.

metta,
des


>From: Alex T
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back To Observing Consciousness
>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:36:09 -0000
>
>Dear friends,
>
>    After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to
>understand how the observing consciousness works.
>
>    Thank you.
>
>Anumodana,
>Alex Tran
>
>


 
4361 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Right view - different kinds of

 
  Betty

Welcome back, and good to have you on the list again.

--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
wrote: > Dear Jon,
> Just returned from Turkey and so am quite far behind
> in catching up with the
> various digests and letters from the group. But just
> having read your
> description of right view in digest 338, I would
> like to ask you how right
> view would then differ from sati and right
> understanding (panna), according
> to your description? While right understanding on an
> initial level must be
> pariyati (intellectual understanding), it does, as
> Dan noted, later become a
> higher level of understanding when, given the
> conditions to have arisen,
> satipatthana  occurs, i.e., when sati, sampajjana
> and panna have arisen.

As I understand it, 'right view' and 'right
understanding' are both translations for
'samma-ditthi', which in turn is panna cetasika.

Panna cetasika arising at moments that are
satipatthana (eg. at moment of samatha) is right view
of the [mundane] Eightfold Path.

Panna cetasika arising at other (non-satipatthana)
moments may be regarded as right view, but not as
right view of the Eightfold Path.  This would include
panna of the kind which understands about kamma and
vipaka (and it should be noted that this kind of view
is not exclusive to the Buddha’s dispensation).

As I am sure you know, panna differs from sati in that
whereas sati remembers or is mindful of the reality
appearing at the present moment, panna knows or
understands something about the characteristic of that
reality.

Just a point on my earlier message, the one to which
Dan replied.  That was in response to a question from
Erik about similarities or differences in Right View
as between the Tibetan and the Pali traditions.  I of
course took him to be talking about Right View of the
Eightfold Path, and my post should be read in that
light.

Dan is quite right in pointing out that there is
mundane right view outside the right view of the
Eightfold Path (which also has a mundane aspect). 
However, I would not consider mere ‘intellectual
acceptance’ of kamma/vipaka to be an example of such
right view.

I hope this helps clarify this rather
difficult-to-grasp area.

Jon

> > > Message: 1
> >    Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:05:25 +0800 (CST)
> >    From: Jonothan Abbott 
> > Subject: Re: On Right View
> > > In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the
> factors of
> > the Noble Eightfold Path.  As such, it occurs with
> > each moment of true awareness of reality.
> > Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental
> factor
> > of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana.
> > Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the
> > characteristic of a reality experienced by citta
> > (moment of consciousness) at that moment.
> >
> > Only at such moments of such awareness can we say
> that
> > there is right view.  So in suttanta or abhidhamma
> > terms, right view does not refer to a view that
> > someone holds about the world or about dhamma
> > generally.
> >
> > Jon
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
> > Message: 2
> >    Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:36:06 -0000
> >    From: "Dan Dalthorp" 
> > Subject: Re: On Right View
> >
> > Jon,
> > Your view of right view is very narrow compared to
> what I read in the
> > suttas. Mundane right view begins with
> intellectual acceptance of
> > kamma/vipaka. From there, it is developed into
> intellectual
> > understanding and acceptance of the four noble
> truths. It is further
> > developed and developed, and gradually the right
> view becomes right
> > view based on direct experience.
> >
> > This is indeed an interesting and important
> subject. Time permitting,
> > I will find some references to chew on soon.
> >
> > Dan



 
4362 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:58pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana

 
  Right on Teng Kee.

metta,
des


>From: "teng kee ong" 
>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana
>Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:40:38 +0800
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:29:46 -0800
>>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana
>
>
> > Dear Erik,
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Erik 
> > >
> > > A question that's bothered me some. How does the
> > > Abhidhamma account
> > > for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can
> > > "cognize" nibbana?
> > >
> > > Erik
> > >
> >
> > I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara)
> > cognizes Nibanna (asankhara).  However, I note that Citta
> > also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all,
> > which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no
> > conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall).
> >
> > kom
> > Dear Kom,
>I think you are wrong to say pannatti dosen't rise and fall and have no 
>conditions.This is the view by Modern Myanmar monk who think that there are 
>two uncondition (another is  niibana)but this is not the view of our 
>theravada text book.If the pannatti is uncondition ,there will not be a 
>kind of pannatti name asankhata pannatti.Pannatti is only half uncondition 
>,we can use this word.See Vibhanga com or just look at last few pages of 
>Visuddhimagga by nyanamoli  in nirodha samapatti part.
>Our lokiya citta couldn't percieve the nibbana until we are a arahant.
>from Teng Kee
>


 
4363 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:57pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Teng Kee,

Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to
discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined
book).  Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in
English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts
mentioned:

The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes
between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti
(see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).

1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå
(feeling), or saññå (perception)10 .

2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner.
These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta
and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner
are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional
realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala
citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign?
Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a
dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai
or foreign.

3...6 skipped here.  (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: teng kee ong 
>
> I will give the text here.only one pannatti is
> uncondition.We have two kinds of

6 kinds...according to the book (and maybe Vissudhimagga?)

> pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and
> avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti
> are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana
> pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata

I am sorry for being a bit slow here, but would you give
definitions for nipphana and parinipphana?  I can't find the
definitions anywhere on the internet.  (I can guess what
nipphana is as there is such thing as "nipphana rupa", but I
can't guess at parinipphana).

kom

 
4364 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 0:14am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Erik,

Sorry to butt in here a little bit.  I only have a few short
comments.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik 
>
> --- Jonothan Abbott
> > This is that there is a clear distinction between
> > 'ultimate realities' (paramattha dhammas), which are
> > 'with individual essence' (sabhava), on the one hand,
> > and concepts (pannatti), which are 'without individual
> > essence' (abhava) on the other.  The question of what
> > exactly is meant by 'with/without individual essence'
> > here also depends on one's definition.
>
> The way I see this is that pannatti may lack
> their "own" essence (so
> do all dhammas) but they must take on the

By Jon's (and Sarah's) definition of essence (sabhava), then
paramatha dhammas have essence.  If you don't like the
definition, perhaps we could skip the use of the word and
just use "sabhava" altogether.  Otherwise, around we go!
(Sarah has answered this related question in a past post.)

> Also, I am curious to hear what the Abhidhamma
> position is on what is
> NOT a creation of the mind apart from nibbana.
> Would paramattha
> dhammas even "exist" without a nama there to
> perceive rupa? The
> better-known version of this question is, if a
> tree falls in the
> forest and there's no sota-vinnana there, is
> there a sound at all?

The position that I hold (not Abhidhamma) is that sound
exists even when there is no nama rising to cognize it.  The
sound simply is not an aramana paccaya to any rising nama.
Of course, as Howard has pointed out, how do you absolutely
prove that this is true (besides using logical reasoning or
believing in Buddha's teachings)?  This is also a difference
(whether paramatha dhammas that are not cognized exist or
not) between Howards and I.

kom

 
4365 From: Num 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Cybele,


Hope you have a peaceful and restful rest then.

Wish you always be brave and cheerful in studying dhamma.


May the force always be with you :)


Num



 
4366 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Num

You are my strenght! :-)
Thank you for being close.
And count on me - I am a brave heart and yes a cheerful student.
The force is Dhamma and as long as I confide in it, the force will be with 
me.

Cybele

>From: Num
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - 
>Erik/Herman
>Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:17:41 EST
>
>Cybele,
>
>
>Hope you have a peaceful and restful rest then.
>
>Wish you always be brave and cheerful in studying dhamma.
>
>
>May the force always be with you :)
>
>
>Num
>


 
4367 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 3/26/01 11:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kom writes:


> This is also a difference
> (whether paramatha dhammas that are not cognized exist or
> not) between Howards and I.
> 
===============================
       I think I should clarify my position a bit. The position that "To 
exist is to be observed" is an idealist position that goes beyond mine. Mine 
is a kind of phenomenalist position that is closer to "To exist is to be 
observable" in the sense that if certain experiences are made to occur, then 
certain other experiences will also occur. So, when I say "The sky is blue", 
for example, what I mean is something along the following lines (still with 
heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should someone with functionally 
unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will see the color blue"; i.e., 
Should this occur, then that will occur; When this arises, then that arises 
(but all in experiential terms rather than existential terms).
       I haven't put this very well. i hope you get my drift.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4368 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:59am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  --- "cybele chiodi"  
wrote:

> I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of 
compounded 
> phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to 
confront 
> REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping 
confrontation with 
> your practice.

I dare say you are making a very presumptuous statement here in 
attempting to ascertain another's practice. How can you possibly know 
what goes on in another's mind? Think on this one long and hard and 
ask yourself if it's reasonable to make assumptions about another's 
mentality based on no more than a few splotches of light and dark on 
a computer screen. Also, let me be very clear on one point. I do not 
discuss meditation experiences with others unless they happen to be 
my teachers, and it is in the context of explaining what's going on 
in the interest of getting corrective instruction. There is heart-
advice directly against doing so by my lineage's founder, Je 
Tsongkhapa, who said that "it is wise to keep one's realizations 
hidden as if guarding precious treasures."

> Theory is conforting isn't it, we feel secure discussing in such a 
logical 
> fashion. Life seems almost so coeherent...

I don't deal with theory by itself, and never have. I deal with the 
data of experience, and use theory to make sense of it, to put it 
into proper context, to communicate that experience. What you suggest 
here is a typical and common misrepresentation/misunderestanding of 
the Dharma, that it is ALL experiential, that theory is unnecessary. 
Not true, even a little bit. 

The fact is we ALL operate through the medium of symbols, and 
understanding the symbols that represent realities is very important 
for the sake of benefitting sentient beings. The only time there is 
no operating through the medium of symbols is during the direct 
perception of nibbana. Otherwise, ALL experience is mediated by 
symbols.

In other words, it's great to have experiences, but it isn't helpful 
if your aim is to make that experience work for your own practice, OR 
communicate that experience in such a way others have a hope of 
awakening (the only reason to try communicating this sort of thing). 
There are 108,000 ways to say the same thing about the Dharma, but 
not each of these "true" descriptions is necessarily the most 
beneficial.

As I see it, it's best to understand the important categories of the 
Dharma as presented by the Buddha if one has a wish to communicate 
its essence in a way that others can use that knowledge to get free 
themselves. To lack this wish to know the Dharma thoroughly, if your 
aim is to communicate its meaning, would seem to be truly 
uncompassionate, as if you don't care enough about others to take the 
time to really learn the ins & outs of how things have been presented 
historically and been proven to work.

So rather than create something half-baked, I think it's exceedingly 
important to gain a real understanding of why the Buddha chose to 
communicate reality the way he did. In my opinion (what do I say that 
isn't?) once this is properly understood, then it's possible to let 
go of conventionalities, in the same way Picasso trained in art 
theory and mastered the essentials before creating his own style. To 
break the rules, you have to know them in the first place.

> >You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad
> >Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient
> >beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give 
you
> >an idea of just who you're dealing with here.
> 
> 
> Again Erik - thinking of the Tibetan Path you have chosen and the 
Dalai Lama 
> that is the embodiment of Compassion himself, it doesn't seems 
logical to me 
> that you defend such paradoxal attitude.

Whoa! Jumping to conclusions about another's mentality again! Anyway, 
speaking of the Dalai Lama, when asked how to awaken, the Dalai 
Lama's emphatic in saying "study! study! study!" What's your reaction 
to that, my theory-disdaining friend? In fact, the Dalai Lama is 
stating a very Geluk-pa view. Given I'm in this lineage, it makes 
sense for me to heed that sort of advice, no? So who are you to judge 
what's proven to work, in other words? (see, I can ask the tough 
questions too, Cybele :) ).

> Well personally I prefer the 'freedom of non escape' but you are 
entitled to 
> your own choices.

If you want to talk Pema Choedron style ("The Wisdom of No Escape"), 
we can do that till the cows come home offline, but not here. I try 
to keep the Tibetan stuff to a bare minimum here because it isn't 
universally accepted.

> But spiritual skills are not developed with erudition in my humble 
viewpoint 
> but investigating our own minds and hearts.

How does one even go about investigating the mind and heart without a 
proper grounding in theory? Let's talk direct experience here for a 
minute. I began in Zen and made practically no progress in five 
years. Do you know why? I had NO helpful theory to work with. I had 
no understanding of things like anatta because the Zen way is very 
loosey-goosey about these definitions. Koans may work for some people 
but certainly not for me. 

Once I was properly trained in my lineage's theory, POW, everything 
came together in a few months. Months, Cybele, not years. The study 
of comparative systems and ANALYTICAL MEDITATION BASED ON THEORY like 
this did more for me, once combined with the standard 
samatha/vipassana meditation, than any other practice I can name. In 
other words, don't knock it if you haven't tried it, or if you don't 
understand how it works. I assure you it works very well for people 
of a certain mentality. It may not work for you, but you're not 
practicing in that tradition either, so why worry about someone 
else's practice? Why not worry about your own awakening instead? That 
would seem a far more fruitful use of your best efforts.

> Hope you soften up towards your fellow sentient beings.
> Wisdom and Compassion are entwined together.

Hope you stop making assumptions about others' mentalities. Because, 
Cybele, you took something said in a true spirit of humor and irony 
the wrong way if you took that in the least bit seriously. I thought 
it would be very hard to take the "Iced Coffee" thing in all 
earnestness. I WAS JOKIN' WITH YA, IN OTHER WORDS, though given your 
recent bad experience I can see how you might not be feeling as light-
hearted as you might otherwise, and missed it.

On that note, GLAD you made it okay, and I have to say, I had no end 
of trouble when I lived in London. It's a very dangerous city, no 
matter where you live or hang out. I had several near-muggings and 
witnessed some pretty nasty violence when I was there, even in "nice" 
neighborhoods--like nothing I've ever seen in all the years I've 
lived in NYC.

 
4369 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:28am
Subject: Re: Mana :pride and esteem

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Num & Erik,
> 
> I particularly appreciated this post below, Num, with
> the account of Sariputta. Several years ago with Khun
> Sujin in India, I remember there was a lot of
> discussion about the value of considering oneself as a
> dustrag. There's a very long way to go (for me)!

There is actually another side to mana, and that's false modesty. So 
I think the dustrag analogy is also mana if taken the wrong way, 
though this form is subtler and certainly not as offensive to others! 
In all cases mana, at root, is based on comparing self & other, no 
matter how innocuous that comparison may appear.

Here's are some other categories of mana I'm familiar with:

Pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one is superior
to lower persons

Excessive pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one
is superior to equal persons

Pride beyond pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that
one is greatly superior even to persons who are superior to
others

Pride of thinking I--a puffing up of the mind, observing the
appropriated aggregates of mind and body and thinking, 'I'

Pride of conceit--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one
has attained what has not been attained, such as clairvoyance
or meditative stabilization

Pride of slight inferiority--a puffing up of the mind, thinking
that one is just a little lower than others who are actually
greatly superior

Wrongful pride--a puffing up the mind, thinking that one has
attained auspicious qualities when one has actually deviated
from the path, such as claiming high attainments when one
has actually been carried away by a spirit.

On that note, I find it interesting that the Polynesian languages 
have the word "Mana" (pride, power) as well, and it's wide enough to 
connote the meaning of the Pali term.

 
4370 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Amara


>Dear Cybele,
>
>It is indeed wonderful that you think of the dhamma in such a
>situation, in fact what better time to study realities as they arise,
>although for us it must be cause for much dosa, as the strong memory
>arises from conditions now.


I don't 'think' Dhamma, Amara I simply feel it.
And for me the context to investigate Dhamma is real life, here and now 
whatever comes - aversion, craving or delusion, sorrow, joy, mental clarity, 
perplexities.


>You in your optimistic attitude and warm
>nature would probably be more used to lobha than dosa but you might
>see that what the Buddha taught; that lobha is the cause of dosa, is
>very true too.

I am not optimistic Amara - for me warmth is the most realistic attitude I 
can engender to cope with life demands and suffering.
I simply cannot understand life without compassion and loving kindness.


>One is attached to the happy feeling that is followed
>by the unpleasant whenever the desired feeling subsides, or happiness
>does not happen, or when anything one dislikes happens.  Yet all are
>bound to change, that is part of the universal tilakkhana, exempting
>nibbana.  Nibbana, according to KS, is the ultimate peace since it
>does not change, it does not arise nor fall away, being permanent.
>Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be very subtle, as in
>each time the body sense is in contact with something that is not
>causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can only be lobha or
>dosa as vedana, and no upekkha.  Or it can be very strong aversion to
>something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest form, a thundering
>anger.  All day the dosa in the subtle forms accompany us, ready to
>blaze at the right conditions, and it is better to know it as such, a
>bad accumulation no one is without except the anagami upwards.


I feel sad, numb and flattened - sadness is aversion?
I am not rejecting or fighting out my sadness.
I am just accepting the way it is and being patient, taking it easy.
All wounds need time to heal.


>
>Meanwhile everything changes, the horrible experience you had is in
>fact memory at this time, real as it may seem even now.  As KS said,
>even the greatest physical pain could not last 24 hrs a day, since all
>the other present arammana arise through other dvara, especially the
>bhavanga.  Even when there is physical pain arising, it can't last all
>of an entire minute, since one can still see, hear, think etc, all
>through.  Which is why a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka was able to study the
>pain as a tiger ate him from the foot up; and attain arahantship
>before he died.  My point is that whatever dosa or dukkha dukkha
>vedana one has, the Buddha taught us that the mind is also very
>important in adding or attenuating the dosa arising from it.  As KS
>said, the initial pain is unavoidable kamma, but the worrying and
>trouble is our own accumulations at work.  I quote from 'Birth, Age,
>Illness and Death' in the advanced section of
><http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >,

I don't feel numb and sad all the time but is the most imponent feeling 
right now.
I am not worrying or troubling myself unnecessarily but just accepting my 
state of mind as it is, acnowledging that I need to grieve, to experience 
all this emotions and do not reject them to play heroic mental equilibrium.


>
>While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could
>not die.  No matter what we do, we could not.  Generally, dukkha of
>the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would
>be worries.  The illness would be like being stabbed by the first
>arrow.  However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow
>that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse.  No matter
>how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since
>to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites.  If there
>were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one.

Personally I never worry that much because of physical pain, I am quite 
strong enduring it and I never take anaesthesia when I go to the dentist for 
example. I can cope. Physical pain doesn't scares me.
But mental suffering is the issue. I was not concerned about my life in that 
moment but about my mental safety, my mental balance surviving it. As now I 
don't have bruises or bodily pain but I am 'sore inside'.
We cannot be free from mental suffering as well.
What about mental illness then?
I would not detach the body and the mind like that, they are entwined in one 
another and influence one another.


>
>To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly
>see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also.  When
>there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and
>trouble to it.


To start with it Amara, I don't see attempt of rape as 'bodily dukkha'; I 
would straight away put it into psychological devastation if you allow me.
Otherwise we are missing totally the point - the aggression, the violence is 
not against your body is a mental threat in my viewpoint - cause mental 
suffering more than anything else.


>To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought
>that does not help in any way.  When there is illness we should take
>care of it without wasting time worrying about it.

I am not ill, I am shocked.
I have a wonderful past accumulation about physical health, very rarely I 
get sick and I don't fuss anyway about it; for me indeed is pointless.
I am not anxious or apprehensive by nature, otherwise I couldn't live as I 
live as bhante would say the 'the sky as roof and the earth as pavement'. 
And I can lead this life also because I am physically strong.


>
>Of course when there are conditions anything can arise, but the Buddha
>teaches us to do the best we can in any given situation and be 'brave
>and cheerful' in the dhamma, and keep studying the present moment
>which can bring us wisdom in the most horrible situations.


Well Amara I do my best, perhaps is not that much but is what I am capable 
to do.
Life is the real dhamma teacher and I am used to pay attention.


>With our
>accumulations it might sound just this side of madness, but you see
>many situations in the Tipitaka of this happening, therefore it must
>be possible and worth studying and proving even in real life
>situations.  One thing that is true is that it can't last 24 hrs a
>day, even if it is our accumulation to think of it over and over, but
>in fact it is past, dear Cybele, now just a memory, another thought.


yes Amara but it's also true that we cannot deal with overwhelming 
sensations just convincing ourselves that they are just a memory.
I think pain and most of all mental pain is very difficult to uproot.
I am not just recollecting and worrying about what is over but trying to 
accept the very fact of the inflicted violence.
Trauma and shock are realities to experience and deal with.
I just don't deny my sensations, thoughts and emotions.


>Luckily it is now over, the tiger didn't really get you, don't let him
>win now!!!  As Num said, it is much better to be cautious and not let
>it have the conditions to happen again, do be careful and it is wiser
>to be accompanied in certain neighborhoods, and not give akusala
>vipaka much condition to arise.  When things happen after all the
>precautions have been taken we can really see that it was meant to be,
>but most of the time we should do our best not to condone to the wrong
>conditions as far as one can without worrying about it too much.


I think that what it was meant to be is that Dhamma protected me.
how many times have you heard of a delinquent that changes mind and releases 
'the victim'?
I will never be overcautious as my nature is adventurous but sure I am 
watching out after this experience. You can bet, I am not to be imprudent 
again!
I don't have a suspicious nature but better develop a bit of wariness just 
in case. :-))


>
>We must keep our lives in order to study the dhamma, as I once said to
>some friends, I'm not so afraid of dying or even rebirth, it is the
>learning process that is so daunting!!!  Especially since none can
>guarantee that we should even hear the dhamma in our next lifetimes.
>So this is the lifetime we can count on to accumulate as much as we
>can learn, of this supreme treasure we have found, and the only one we
>can take with us to wherever we are going next.  The realities that
>appear to be studied might not appeal to your lobha, but might give
>you knowledge of other strong tendencies, (which might or might not
>arise again from conditions in the future), arising in alternation
>with present arammana, through the eyes, ears, etc., even as you read
>this.  Studying it would not only keep akusala thoughts and memories
>from arising at that citta moment, but also give you that much more
>knowledge of realities as they really are.  Nothing, even the most
>unpleasant, really last; but as Num said, give yourself time to let go
>and become your sunny self again, possibly with even more wisdom of
>things as they really are.
>
>May the Buddha's 'bravery and cheerfulness' arise in you,
>
>Amara


Thank you Amara, I never doubted that pain is a harsh but good teacher but 
sometimes he really 'gets on my nerves', such awful, rude manners, my 
goodness!! ;-)))
Let's say that now I am 'a pale winter sun' but my tropical bright sun will 
shine again I confide.
Thank you for the support and the good wishes.

Love and respect
Cybele


 
4371 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Erik

At last I succeeded in having an exchange of viewpoints with you!

I wrote:
> > Hope you soften up towards your fellow sentient beings.
> > Wisdom and Compassion are entwined together.
>

You replied:
>Hope you stop making assumptions about others' mentalities. Because,
>Cybele, you took something said in a true spirit of humor and irony
>the wrong way if you took that in the least bit seriously. I thought
>it would be very hard to take the "Iced Coffee" thing in all
>earnestness. I WAS JOKIN' WITH YA, IN OTHER WORDS, though given your
>recent bad experience I can see how you might not be feeling as light-
>hearted as you might otherwise, and missed it.

Dear Erik as you can notice a bit a provocation has showed your practice as 
I was inviting you to discuss it - in real terms and not basing it only on 
intellectualization. This is real life.
I was simply asking you to explore this kind of interaction.
Not to judge you or 'measure' your skillfulness but only to actually SHARE 
authentic Dhamma with you in a prompt, alive interaction.
First thing I am not making assumptions about 'others mentalities', it 
happens that I figured out about yours for your reticence, isolated episode. 
Clumsly or wrongly it happened with you. Period.
Therefore you are 'making assumptions' as well about my interaction with 
people here and elsewhere.
And as an intelligent guy you can easily deduce and indeed I admitted 
plainly is most evident that I am not exactly in my lighter mood and not so 
prone to 'joke' but anyway I considered the humour of your remark just I 
felt to comment on it as anyway you were not willing to discuss Dhamma with 
me and was not 'very compassionate' of you as also I ironically stung you in 
my previous mail.
You are not taking it that cool as well.

>
>On that note, GLAD you made it okay, and I have to say, I had no end
>of trouble when I lived in London. It's a very dangerous city, no
>matter where you live or hang out. I had several near-muggings and
>witnessed some pretty nasty violence when I was there, even in "nice"
>neighborhoods--like nothing I've ever seen in all the years I've
>lived in NYC.

Indeed many Londoners or people living here 'reassured me' about it. That 
there is no way of being careful or prudent, this facts happens in day 
light, in elegant quarters and with witnesses around.
But what shocked me most it was the recognotion of such blatant violence. 
This is the most unconfirtable fact to accept and cope as anyway I left 
unharmed.
And I have been many times in London before and is the first incident I had. 
However knowing that is common fact makes me feel less of a fool after all 
and not blaming myself. thanks.

Thank you for your response anyway
I will continue replying in another mail, you are prolific you know - I 
prefer focusing on the various issues separately.

Cybele


 
4372 From: Alex T 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:21am
Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Des and friends,

   Thank you for your help.  You're very compassionate.

With Metta and much appreciation,
Alex

--- "Desmond Chiong"  
wrote:
> Observing consciousness does not work.
> It is worked on.
> Every time a conciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] happens, the 
observing 
> consciousness is awakened.
> In ordinary language, we say observing consciousness, as though it 
is a 
> subject. Actually it is an object.
> It is always very tricky to use the ordinary language to describe 
extra 
> ordinary events.
> All our understanding may all be the same, at a certain advanced 
level.
> But to use ordinary language to agree that we understand the same 
may not be 
> that easy.
> The best way two people understand one another is when they sit 
side by side 
> and one understand the other with no talking.
> Just like when Buddha held a flower, Mahakasapa smiled.
> 
> metta,
> des

 
4373 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Erik


> > Theory is conforting isn't it, we feel secure discussing in such a
>logical
> > fashion. Life seems almost so coeherent...
>
>I don't deal with theory by itself, and never have. I deal with the
>data of experience, and use theory to make sense of it, to put it
>into proper context, to communicate that experience. What you suggest
>here is a typical and common misrepresentation/misunderestanding of
>the Dharma, that it is ALL experiential, that theory is unnecessary.
>Not true, even a little bit.

Again you are 'assuming' something that I never affirmed. To clarify your 
point no need to miscostrue mine.
Let's dont misunderstand each other because we have divergences and consent 
hostility to blind our analysis of the real issue.
I would be not here Erik if I were for this kind of individual approach.
I did not suggest anything of that kind, you are builting up further the 
foundations I laid and is not my arquiteture.
What is the point of studying Dhamma and accepting it as a path if you don't 
respect or value the teachings?
But I don't think that experience 'misrepresent' Dhamma, I think that 
disclose our real depth of knowledge that curiously never matches our 
intellectual arrogance.
What I tried to reason with you is that the actual LOGIC of Dhamma is in the 
present moment, in this dynamic meditation we are engaged in right now.
I am not rejecting 'theory', but the proper context of the teachings is here 
and now, life and practice and I don't mean only about formal meditation.
See Erik the point is so CLEAR; we can talk so neatly about anatta but do 
you reckon that right now we are CLINGING TO OUR SENSE OF SELF like hell? 
How can you perceive it while you are doing eloquent discurses?
No way, now I am listening to my mind and investigating it and I am 
considering the teachings as you 'to make sense of it' but I am basing my 
knowledge in this very moment not intellectual abstractions.


>
>The fact is we ALL operate through the medium of symbols, and
>understanding the symbols that represent realities is very important
>for the sake of benefitting sentient beings. The only time there is
>no operating through the medium of symbols is during the direct
>perception of nibbana. Otherwise, ALL experience is mediated by
>symbols.


Well indeed I am explicating myself with words but words carry pathos with 
them Erik, they have mental content that goes far beyond what is being said 
and it's there that we have to concentrate most for me.
disclosure of the real significance of it.
Intellect can be so delusive Erik as passions.
And words are misconceptions the very moment you think them as I was 
explaining Sarah. How possibly could I communicate 'awareness', is already 
gone the insight while I am elaborating it but somehow 'the real thing is 
powerful and digs a pattern in your mind more and more creating that right 
factors for right understanding to be consolidated.
It's the insight that decode the real meaning not our discursive mind.


>
>In other words, it's great to have experiences, but it isn't helpful
>if your aim is to make that experience work for your own practice, OR
>communicate that experience in such a way others have a hope of
>awakening (the only reason to try communicating this sort of thing).
>There are 108,000 ways to say the same thing about the Dharma, but
>not each of these "true" descriptions is necessarily the most
>beneficial.

I simply invited you to try and explore another approach to interact with 
me. But Erik the most beneficial way is not my approach or your approach: is 
ONLY the present moment and the insight we manage to get on it. The rest is 
our wishful thinking, expectations but not reality.
Dhamma is about reality, theory is only a tool for us to help in the 
purpose.
I am not that proud and narrowminded to assume that my way is the way and I 
never try deliberately to adjust the practice to be palatable to my tastes 
BUT WE ALL DO IT Erik all the time.
We call it past accumulations, conditionings, mental/emotional habits - how 
could I deny it, how can we deceive ourselves that we are not 'manipulating' 
it for our spiritual comfort? Come on let's get real.
Sure we are and that's all the point of investigating our minds, to 
desentangle it from delusion.


Cybele

 
4374 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  OK folks, let's sip some iced coffee and plop some ice-cream into it! If
anyone is cold, there is always hot chocolate and nice ways to enjoy that!

I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. On one hand there is
great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing of deep Dhamma but on
the other hand, where is the practical application? There is something of a
kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. Something seems to be
missing.

Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study".

But how about a bit more practice like there was only 5 minutes or less left
for each of us to be alive?

Something is not right here. There is a lot of clinging and grasping I see
in the writing.

Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply this Dhamma and not just
relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others (including non-sentient
beings) then what is the point?

As we share the Dhamma here, I also observe this level of tension here that
seems to plague the whole planet. Shouldn't we know better and DO better?

Would it be asking too much to not just be firm but also slow things down a
bit and practice being more gentle?

If I am off the beam here, out of line, or mistaken, then I ask for
forgiveness.

May this find everyone in the community with growing inner peace.

May this find all of you well.
May all of you be truly well.
May all of you be free from suffering.
May all of you know happiness
and the cause of happiness.

With Great Metta,

Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo

Buddhadharma International Foundation
http://www.buddhadharma.org/

----- Original Message -----
From: <Erik>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 11:29 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik


> --- "cybele chiodi" 
> wrote:
>
> > I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of
> compounded
> > phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to
> confront
> > REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping
> confrontation with
> > your practice.
>
> I dare say you are making a very presumptuous statement here in
> attempting to ascertain another's practice. How can you possibly know
> what goes on in another's mind?

 
4375 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Erik


>
>As I see it, it's best to understand the important categories of the
>Dharma as presented by the Buddha if one has a wish to communicate
>its essence in a way that others can use that knowledge to get free
>themselves. To lack this wish to know the Dharma thoroughly, if your
>aim is to communicate its meaning, would seem to be truly
>uncompassionate, as if you don't care enough about others to take the
>time to really learn the ins & outs of how things have been presented
>historically and been proven to work.


Dear Erik I care a lot about people and I don't lack the wish to know the 
Dhamma throughly. What do you think I am doing here, showing off my thoughts 
and emotions to make a fool of myself?
We are all fools anyway Erik as we are not enlightened.
I am sharing my understanding and developing right conditions for further 
knowledge.
For me Dhamma is real life and my 'wisdom and my compassion' are not in my 
knowledge of the texts but in what I can sort out in my insights and 
therefore 'communicate' with my actions.
And if you don't mind I don't believe that anybody gets free from suffering 
learning the categories of the Dhamma but practicing formal as dynamic 
meditation. I suppose this is not my way but the Budhha's way as far as I 
know and has been proven to work indeed.
And there is something called spiritual independence and there is no text 
that can 'help' to master your mind or tame your emotions but only awareness 
of this very moment, now.
Only true investigation or actual practice can achieve it, the text is a 
mean not the goal, we cannot petrify our minds there.
Dhamma for me is alive and is there with me, inside me even when I make 
nasty encounters.


>
>So rather than create something half-baked, I think it's exceedingly
>important to gain a real understanding of why the Buddha chose to
>communicate reality the way he did. In my opinion (what do I say that
>isn't?) once this is properly understood, then it's possible to let
>go of conventionalities, in the same way Picasso trained in art
>theory and mastered the essentials before creating his own style. To
>break the rules, you have to know them in the first place.


Picasso painted while he was learning art. He was totally unruly and I 
believe Dhamma is creative as well.
You speak like we could KNOW Dhamma through the texts.
For me we can KNOW Dhamma only thropugh mindfulness.
The only rule as far as I understand is no control and being aware of this 
present moment and pick up right understanding when it arises.
As I wrote in another mail is a lifelong meditation.


>
> > >You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad
> > >Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient
> > >beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give
>you
> > >an idea of just who you're dealing with here.
> >
> >
> > Again Erik - thinking of the Tibetan Path you have chosen and the
>Dalai Lama
> > that is the embodiment of Compassion himself, it doesn't seems
>logical to me
> > that you defend such paradoxal attitude.
>
>Whoa! Jumping to conclusions about another's mentality again! Anyway,
>speaking of the Dalai Lama, when asked how to awaken, the Dalai
>Lama's emphatic in saying "study! study! study!" What's your reaction
>to that, my theory-disdaining friend? In fact, the Dalai Lama is
>stating a very Geluk-pa view. Given I'm in this lineage, it makes
>sense for me to heed that sort of advice, no? So who are you to judge
>what's proven to work, in other words? (see, I can ask the tough
>questions too, Cybele :) ).


Erik I am always jumping as you do as well. You are so DRIVEN by our SELVES 
that you just cannot refrain from it and we miscostrue all the time. Is the 
famous monkey/jumping mind! ;-)
Also you took me far too serious when I was just stinging you to react.
There was no scheme, I am just like this 'probing'.
I am not judging you; I was commenting on your remarks.
This is an exchange Erik I am not trying to submit you or to manipulate your 
mind.
And you can ask me all the tough questions you wish, I am not intimidated or 
offended.
I am from very frank and honest interactions.
No formalities with me. You can get to the point and I am not avoiding it. I 
am not afraid 'to lose face'. I am competing with you or anybody, I was 
interested in your experience of all this theory and now I have got it. So 
glad.


>
> > Well personally I prefer the 'freedom of non escape' but you are
>entitled to
> > your own choices.
>
>If you want to talk Pema Choedron style ("The Wisdom of No Escape"),
>we can do that till the cows come home offline, but not here. I try
>to keep the Tibetan stuff to a bare minimum here because it isn't
>universally accepted.

I feel quite attuned with Pema Chodron and even if personally I am not 
interested in the Tibetan Path it doesn't precludes me appreciation of 
illuminating books.
I was not alluding to her deliberately; I have always this jergon to 
illustrate the pertinence of non denial - the freedom of non escape.
You jumped beyond - see we do it all the time Erik, how could be different, 
we are not referring to the present moment but we are picking up from our 
backgrounds yet we can realize it and getting this insights more and more we 
are weakening our conditionings and purifying our minds. This is Dhamma for 
me, reckoning it and accepting it.


>
> > But spiritual skills are not developed with erudition in my humble
>viewpoint
> > but investigating our own minds and hearts.
>
>How does one even go about investigating the mind and heart without a
>proper grounding in theory? Let's talk direct experience here for a
>minute. I began in Zen and made practically no progress in five
>years. Do you know why? I had NO helpful theory to work with. I had
>no understanding of things like anatta because the Zen way is very
>loosey-goosey about these definitions. Koans may work for some people
>but certainly not for me.


Well I practiced Zen as well and even if that discipline is forceful for my 
temperament worked wonders on my nature but I went further on when I felt 
that I was getting stuck.
I was not on Rinzai but Soto anyway, that's is so very much alike Vipassana 
in my opinion.
Sure it all depends on our characteristics and past accumulations chosing 
one path or another and not necessarily it was lacking on anatta foundations 
but simply perhaps it was not the right moment for that understanding to 
arise.
And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of factors for 
it. Good for you that you did not kept being stubborn on Zen when you had 
other alternatives for seeking.


>
>Once I was properly trained in my lineage's theory, POW, everything
>came together in a few months. Months, Cybele, not years. The study
>of comparative systems and ANALYTICAL MEDITATION BASED ON THEORY like
>this did more for me, once combined with the standard
>samatha/vipassana meditation, than any other practice I can name.


Excellent Erik, you found the proper path for you, congratulations.
I never thought that truth can be revealed in an unique shape or teaching or 
whatever, I have a very ecletic mind and my heart is very open. I do not 
discriminate your way and is not necessary to cling to anything anyway, it 
depends all on awareness and right conditions, who knows tomorrow could be 
my way as it could never be.
Nevertheless I am not SO SURE about anything because my mind is deluding me 
all the time.
And I keep investigating and listening to my heart as well.
How can we be so assertive and secure in a world that is continuously 
evolving, changing, vanishing, rebuking our 'beliefs' and destroying our 
values'.
We are always grasping Erik, trying to prove ourselves a point to feel 
stability.
For me, I repeat for me, lots of theory leads to clinging in misconceptions 
of reality as well as powerful emotions.
We are trying not to understand but to CONTROL reality.
We are not in the PRESENT MOMENT but lost in thoughts.
There is no real insight in the phenomena.
Don't take it as insinuation that you are deluded, how could I possibly 
know?
I only invited you to share your viewpoint and discuss it with me.
To investigate together in a different language than intellect but talking 
about real experience.
See you were capable to do it as well after your initial reticence.
No need to AGREE or DISAGREE, just to share and clarify Erik.
I am not 'converting' you to my religion so to speak, I am just discussing 
issues together with another practitioner.
No hidden intentions, no hostility against you personally, no mental 
twistings to prove you wrong and me smart.
This is all bullshit, I am not studying or practicing to prove anything but 
only to understand Erik.


>In
>other words, don't knock it if you haven't tried it, or if you don't
>understand how it works. I assure you it works very well for people
>of a certain mentality. It may not work for you, but you're not
>practicing in that tradition either, so why worry about someone
>else's practice? Why not worry about your own awakening instead? That
>would seem a far more fruitful use of your best efforts.


I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the least was 
trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get you to 
share about your practice and not only discuss theory.
You are embroidering on the material of my very plain intentions Erik, I am 
not a manipulative person.
And I am not trying to lead you here or there, this are just fears and 
aversions arising.
Indeed I worry about my 'awakening' as I care about your insights otherwise 
what is the point of discussing in a list?
I call it sharing and for me is a fruitful effort.

Metta
Cybele


 
4376 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed

 
  Carl's Garden 

Carl was a quiet man. He didn't talk much. He would always greet you 
with a big smile and a firm handshake. Even after living in our 
neighborhood for over 50 years, no one could really say they knew him 
very well. 
 
Before his retirement, he took the bus to work each morning. The lone 
sight of him walking down the street often worried us. He had a slight 
limp from a bullet wound received in WWII. Watching him, we worried that 
although he had survived WWII, he may not make it through our changing 
uptown neighborhood with its ever- increasing random violence, gangs, 
and drug activity. 
 
When he saw the flyer at our local church asking for volunteers for 
caring for the gardens behind the minister's residence, he responded in 
his characteristically un-assuming manner. Without fanfare, he just 
signed up. He was well into his 87th year when the very thing we had 
always feared finally happened. 
 
He was just finishing his watering for the day when three gang members 
approached him. Ignoring their attempt to intimidate him, he simply 
asked, "Would you like a drink from the hose?" 
 
The tallest and toughest-looking of the three said, "Yeah, sure", with a 
malevolent little smile. As Carl offered the hose to him, the other two 
grabbed Carl's arm, throwing him down. As the hose snaked crazily over 
the ground, dousing everything in its way, Carl's assailants stole his 
retirement watch and his wallet, and then fled. Carl tried to get 
himself up, but he had been thrown down on his bad leg. 

He lay there trying to gather himself as the minister came running to 
help him. Although the minister had witnessed the attack from his 
window, he couldn't get there fast enough to stop it. "Carl, are you 
okay? Are you hurt?" the minister kept asking as he helped Carl to his 
feet. Carl just passed a hand over his brow and sighed, shaking his 
head. 

"Just some punk kids. I hope they'll wise-up someday." His wet clothes 
clung to his slight frame as he bent to pick up the hose. He adjusted 
the nozzle again and started to water. 

Confused and a little concerned, the minister asked, "Carl, what are you 
doing?" 

"I've got to finish my watering. It's been very dry lately", came the 
calm reply. Satisfying himself that Carl really was all right, the 
minister could only marvel. Carl was a man from a different time and 
place. 

A few weeks later the three returned. Just as before their threat was 
unchallenged. Carl again offered them a drink form his hose. This time 
they didn't rob him. They wrenched the hose from his hand and drenched 
him head to foot in the icy water. 

When they had finished their humiliation of him, they sauntered off down 
the street, throwing catcalls and curses, falling over one another 
laughing at the hilarity of what they had just done. Carl just watched 
them. Then he turned toward the warmth giving sun, picked up his 
hose, and went on with his watering. 

The summer was quickly fading into fall. Carl was doing some tilling 
when he was startled by the sudden approach of someone behind him. He 
stumbled and fell into some evergreen branches. As he struggled to 
regain his footing, he turned to see the tall leader of his summer 
tormentors reaching down for him. He braced himself for the expected 
attack. "Don't worry old man, I'm not gonna hurt you this time." The 
young man spoke softly, still offering the tattooed and scarred hand to 
Carl. 

As he helped Carl get up, the man pulled a crumpled bag from his pocket 
and handed it to Carl. "What's this?" Carl asked. 

"It's your stuff," the man explained. "It's your stuff back. Even the 
money in your wallet." 

"I don't understand," Carl said. "Why would you help me now?" 

The man shifted his feet, seeming embarrassed and ill at ease. "I 
learned something from you", he said. "I ran with that gang and hurt 
people like you. We picked you because you were old and we knew we could 
do it. But every time we came and did something to you, instead of 
yelling and fighting back, you tried to give us a drink. You didn't hate 
us for hating you. You kept showing love against our hate." He stopped 
for a moment. 

"I couldn't sleep after we stole your stuff, so here it is back." He 
paused for another awkward moment, not knowing what more there was to 
say."That bag's my way of saying thanks for straightening me out, I 
guess." And with that, he walked off down the street. 

Carl looked down at the sack in his hands and gingerly opened it. He 
took out his retirement watch and put it back on his wrist. Opening his 
wallet, he checked for his wedding photo. He gazed for a moment at the 
young bride that still smiled back at him from all those years ago. 

He died one cold day after Christmas that winter. Many people attended 
his funeral in spite of the weather. In particular the minister noticed 
a tall young man that he didn't know sitting quietly in a distant corner 
of the church. The minister spoke of Carl's garden as a lesson in 

life. In a voice made thick with unshed tears, he said, "Do your best 
and 
make your garden as beautiful as you can. We will never forget Carl and 
his garden." 

The following spring another flyer went up. It read: "Person needed to 
care for Carl's garden." The flyer went unnoticed by the busy 
parishioners until one day when a knock was heard at the minister's 
office door. Opening the door, the minister saw a pair of scarred and 
tattooed hands holding the flyer. "I believe this is my job, if you'll 
have me," the young man said. 

The minister recognized him as the same young man who had returned the 
stolen watch and wallet to Carl. He knew that Carl's kindness had turned 
this man's life around. As the minister handed him the keys to the 
garden shed, he said, "Yes, go take care of Carl's garden and honor 
him." 

The man went to work and, over the next several years, he tended the 
flowers and vegetables just as Carl had done. In that time, he went to 
college, got married and became a prominent member of the community. But 
he never forgot his promise to Carl's memory and kept the garden as 
beautiful as he thought Carl would have kept it. 

One day he approached the new minister and told him that he couldn't 
care for the garden any longer. He explained with a shy and happy smile, 
"My wife just had a baby boy last night, and she's bringing him home on 
Saturday." 
 
"Well, congratulations!" said the minister, as he was handed the garden 
shed keys. "That's wonderful! What's the baby's name?" 
 
It is Carl. 
 
~author unknown

 
4377 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:25am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" 
 wrote:

> Would it be asking too much to not just be firm but also slow 
things down a
> bit and practice being more gentle?

This is an excellent reminder, and I thank you for it--and I am sure 
I will need it again in the very near future. I often forget that 
this medium can't ever convey the very wide range of feelings behind 
the words, and it is very easy to believe you're saying one thing and 
have people read the complete opposite of the intended message. When, 
for example, directness is tempered in "real life" by a smile or 
jolly demeanor, that same directness, in this medium, can read very 
differently. So I shall endeavour to be more mindful of my speech 
(and try to avoid the stiltedness that engenders--not so easy to find 
the Middle Way!).

 
4378 From: Num 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed

 
  Thanks Ven. for an uplifting story.  I can only wish that I can be that kind, 
nice, forgiving and patient.  Wish the robber learn and can feel radiance of 
your metta as well.

Anumodhana

Num



 
4379 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:51am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  --- "cybele chiodi"  
wrote:

> And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of 
factors for 
> it. 

For the record, the Abhidharma is an integral part of the Tibetan 
canon, and is studied by all schools. Perhaps studying the Tipitaka's 
version as well as the Tibetan Abhidharmakosa is somewhat unorthodox, 
but then again, this sort of comparative analysis hasn't been this 
easy until now, either (I am lucky enough to have one of three extant 
translations of the Tibetan recension of the Abhidharmakosa in 
English). To me this presents an unusual opportunity I have found 
difficult to pass up.

> I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the 
least was 
> trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get 
you to 
> share about your practice and not only discuss theory.

Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the Tibetan path here; I was 
referring to scholasticism as a practice in and of itself, which 
includes all the discussions on Dhamma going on here. It's a very 
powerful practice, so long as the concepts don't become stand-ins for 
what they're pointing at. Discussing theory IS practice if approached 
the right way, if we're not attached to the words, but are instead 
concerned with what the words point at (I think I've been 
unmistakably clear this is my approach). Likewise, ANY practice can 
become poison if approached the wrong way, study, "dynamic 
meditation," etc. The Middle Way is not so easy.

 
4380 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Right view - different kinds of

 
  In my haste to post off my message to Betty last
night, I failed to spot a blatant error which was a
leftover from a different version of this paragraph.

> Panna cetasika arising at moments that are
> satipatthana (eg. at moment of samatha) is right
> view
> of the [mundane] Eightfold Path.

Samatha is not an aspect of satipatthana, and the
reference to 'moment of samatha' is out of place here.
 Please ignore it.

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.


 
4381 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Thank you for this very timely reminder.


Sila, samadhi, panna. Not one without the other.


Thank you.


Herman


-----Original Message-----
From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo 
Date: Tuesday, 27 March 2001 7:02
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik


>OK folks, let's sip some iced coffee and plop some ice-cream into it! If
>anyone is cold, there is always hot chocolate and nice ways to enjoy that!
>
>I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. On one hand there is
>great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing of deep Dhamma but on
>the other hand, where is the practical application? There is something of a
>kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. Something seems to be
>missing.
>
>Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study".
>
>But how about a bit more practice like there was only 5 minutes or less
left
>for each of us to be alive?
>
>Something is not right here. There is a lot of clinging and grasping I see
>in the writing.
>
>Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply this Dhamma and not just
>relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others (including non-sentient
>beings) then what is the point?
>
>As we share the Dhamma here, I also observe this level of tension here that
>seems to plague the whole planet. Shouldn't we know better and DO better?
>
>Would it be asking too much to not just be firm but also slow things down a
>bit and practice being more gentle?
>
>If I am off the beam here, out of line, or mistaken, then I ask for
>forgiveness.
>
>May this find everyone in the community with growing inner peace.
>
>May this find all of you well.
>May all of you be truly well.
>May all of you be free from suffering.
>May all of you know happiness
>and the cause of happiness.
>
>With Great Metta,
>
>Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo
>
>Buddhadharma International Foundation
>http://www.buddhadharma.org/
>

 
4382 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed

 
  Lovely, Bhante! Thank you so much for this beautiful piece!!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4383 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Hi, Erik (and all) -

In a message dated 3/26/01 7:53:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erik writes:


> --- "cybele chiodi"  
> wrote:
> 
> > And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of 
> factors for 
> > it. 
> 
> For the record, the Abhidharma is an integral part of the Tibetan 
> canon, and is studied by all schools. Perhaps studying the Tipitaka's 
> version as well as the Tibetan Abhidharmakosa is somewhat unorthodox, 
> but then again, this sort of comparative analysis hasn't been this 
> easy until now, either (I am lucky enough to have one of three extant 
> translations of the Tibetan recension of the Abhidharmakosa in 
> English). To me this presents an unusual opportunity I have found 
> difficult to pass up.
> 
> > I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the 
> least was 
> > trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get 
> you to 
> > share about your practice and not only discuss theory.
> 
> Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the Tibetan path here; I was 
> referring to scholasticism as a practice in and of itself, which 
> includes all the discussions on Dhamma going on here. It's a very 
> powerful practice, so long as the concepts don't become stand-ins for 
> what they're pointing at. Discussing theory IS practice if approached 
> the right way, if we're not attached to the words, but are instead 
> concerned with what the words point at (I think I've been 
> unmistakably clear this is my approach). Likewise, ANY practice can 
> become poison if approached the wrong way, study, "dynamic 
> meditation," etc. The Middle Way is not so easy.
> 
> 
> 
===============================
       Study, and the discussion of theory are certainly very important. But 
in my case, and I do not assume that this is other than idiosyncratic to me, 
when a *great deal* of study and discussion is engaged in by me, I tend to 
find other aspects of practice slipping - most specifically sitting 
meditation and moment-to-moment mindfulness, and I find myself losing ground. 
When this happens it is a signal to me to move in the opposite direction, to 
move away from intellectual practice and towards more direct practice of 
concentration, attention and of the heart. This seems to be the point I am at 
now, and, accordingly, I plan to "shift gears", which will include a little 
less active participation on the list.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4384 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:24am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  > I feel sad, numb and flattened - sadness is aversion?
> I am not rejecting or fighting out my sadness.
> I am just accepting the way it is and being patient, taking it easy.
> All wounds need time to heal.


Dear Cybele,

Dosa, 'unpleasant feeling', has many degrees and faces, although even 
some great translators use 'anger'.  Sadness is a kind of dosa, which 
arises and falls away like anything else, whether one fights or 
accepts it.  When there are conditions it will arise again, but it 
cannot stay unchanged.


> Personally I never worry that much because of physical pain, I am 
quite 
> strong enduring it and I never take anaesthesia when I go to the 
dentist for 
> example. I can cope. Physical pain doesn't scares me.
> But mental suffering is the issue. I was not concerned about my life 
in that 
> moment but about my mental safety, my mental balance surviving it. 


Wow, you must really have a high tolerance to physical pain!  My 
dentist uses as little as possible saying it is bad for the kidneys.

I think what the teachings say is that without the body one would not 
only have no physical pain possible but almost none of the mental 
dukkha as well.


As now I 
> don't have bruises or bodily pain but I am 'sore inside'.
> We cannot be free from mental suffering as well.
> What about mental illness then?
> I would not detach the body and the mind like that, they are 

entwined in one 
> another and influence one another.


Can there be mental illness if there were no rupa?  Phobia is for the 
most part fear of harm, coming from dosa against something that might 
'hurt you' or touch you; even fear of height includes the fear of 
falling down and getting hurt.  Schizophrenia often involves suspicion 
that others are talking about one and planning to harm one in some 
way.  In a round about way it still involves the rupa, one's own and 
other's.  In fact most illnesses involve the rupa, enhancing or 
suppressing the sensations thereof, I think, since they take the 
'body' as well as the 'mind' for the 'self'.  The Buddha teaches us to 
know the body as the body that arises and falls away according to 
conditions as well as the citta, not us at all in the end, whether we 
want it that way or not.  This is the truth we must face and if 
possible profit from by studying realities that appear, even our own 
'bodies' and 'mental states' to see if there is really any 'self' in 
all this.


> I think that what it was meant to be is that Dhamma protected me.
> how many times have you heard of a delinquent that changes mind and 
releases 
> 'the victim'?
> I will never be overcautious as my nature is adventurous but sure I 
am 
> watching out after this experience. You can bet, I am not to be 
imprudent 
> again!
> I don't have a suspicious nature but better develop a bit of 
wariness just 
> in case. :-))


> I never doubted that pain is a harsh but good teacher but 
> sometimes he really 'gets on my nerves', such awful, rude manners, 
my 
> goodness!! ;-)))
>Let's say that now I am 'a pale winter sun' but my tropical bright 
sun will shine again I confide.
Ø 

I am happy to hear this, and hope your mental recovery will be rapid 
and as painless as possible,

May the dhamma keep you and continue to protect you,

Amara

 
4385 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:32am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  --- Howard wrote:

Hi Howard,

>        Study, and the discussion of theory are certainly very 
important. But 
> in my case, and I do not assume that this is other than 
idiosyncratic to me, 
> when a *great deal* of study and discussion is engaged in by me, I 
tend to 
> find other aspects of practice slipping - most specifically sitting 
> meditation and moment-to-moment mindfulness, and I find myself 
losing ground. 
> When this happens it is a signal to me to move in the opposite 
direction, to 
> move away from intellectual practice and towards more direct 
practice of 
> concentration, attention and of the heart. This seems to be the 
point I am at 
> now, and, accordingly, I plan to "shift gears", which will include 
a little 
> less active participation on the list.

For me it's the opposite. The past two years has been dhutanga 
practice of sorts, meaning I had a lot of things happen that were 
extremely difficult to work through, took all my energy, and 
terminated a lot of akusala-kamma. No serious study or formal 
practice in other words (apart from learning to deal with a lot of my 
own akusala-vipaka). I find that study totally invigorates everything 
else for me, particularly "real world" practice. The times my 
practice is best is when study and meditation are both going full 
bore, as I have found that one directly supports the other. But that 
is my idiosyncracy.

 
4386 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:42am
Subject: Re: threatened and robbed

 
  Venerable sir,

Thank you for the lovely lesson,

Amara

 
 
4387 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Howard,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard 
> "To exist is to be
> observable" in the sense that if certain
> experiences are made to occur, then
> certain other experiences will also occur. So,
> when I say "The sky is blue",
> for example, what I mean is something along the
> following lines (still with
> heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should
> someone with functionally
> unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will
> see the color blue"; i.e.,
> Should this occur, then that will occur; When
> this arises, then that arises
> (but all in experiential terms rather than
> existential terms).
>        I haven't put this very well. i hope you
> get my drift.
>

Thanks for the clarification.  I think we are closer than I
thought we were.  How would you answer the question that
Erik asked (if a tree falls in the forest and "makes sound"
and there is nobody there to observe it, does the sound
exist?).

kom

 
4388 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Kom,

I know the question was not directed to me, but I couldn't resist the
temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-)


There is no tree and there is no forest without nama/rupa. There is rupa
without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself or anything else for that
matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling over all over the place all
the time, but the forms this takes, and the qualities this has, are shaped
by nama/rupa. What something would be without it being known is .........
unknowable.

Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Kom Tukovinit 
Date: Tuesday, 27 March 2001 15:24
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana


>Dear Howard,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Howard 
>> "To exist is to be
>> observable" in the sense that if certain
>> experiences are made to occur, then
>> certain other experiences will also occur. So,
>> when I say "The sky is blue",
>> for example, what I mean is something along the
>> following lines (still with
>> heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should
>> someone with functionally
>> unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will
>> see the color blue"; i.e.,
>> Should this occur, then that will occur; When
>> this arises, then that arises
>> (but all in experiential terms rather than
>> existential terms).
>>        I haven't put this very well. i hope you
>> get my drift.
>>
>
>Thanks for the clarification.  I think we are closer than I
>thought we were.  How would you answer the question that
>Erik asked (if a tree falls in the forest and "makes sound"
>and there is nobody there to observe it, does the sound
>exist?).
>
>kom
>


 
4389 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:48pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Herman,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herman Hofman 
> There is no tree and there is no forest without 
> nama/rupa. There is rupa
> without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself 
> or anything else for that
> matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling 
> over all over the place all
> the time, but the forms this takes, and the 
> qualities this has, are shaped
> by nama/rupa. What something would be without it 
> being known is .........
> unknowable.

Thanks for answering.  I have no arguments here...

kom

 
4390 From: <> 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:08pm
Subject: Archan Sujin's quote on March 24, 2001 English Dhamma Discussion

 
  Archan Sujin quote :-
     I think that we really do not know how much kilesa, one has 
accumulated, so deeply, so very very deeply rooted. So we think that
it is 
not too difficult to develop understanding, just by reading and
coming to 
have class on abhidhamma and think that one knows it all so well.
     BUT what about the motives of studying ? Just to know or by
knowing 
one self, that we have lots of akusula that should be completely 
eradicated. And there is only one way by developing the understanding 
and see the danger of akusula. Otherwise, we will be careless to do
evil 
things or to have evil thought andnot thinking about eradicating any
kind 
of akusula at all. 
     BUT by seeing the danger of it, and we know that i's impossible
to get 
rid of all defilement, without the development of right understanding
to 
see realities as they are. That is why, we came to know, to study, in 
order to be able to eradicate all defilement.
     What are you doing in daily life, can tell you whether you
really have 
the resolution,the Adhitthana Parami which supports you to go on and
on 
studying with reducing your ego and all defilements.
     BUT if you still like that, it means that you crave for knowing
and you 
do not look at NOW, the danger of just the process of Javana, from 
moment to moment of akusula, lobha, mana, of everything more and 
more.
Archan Sujin unquoted

 
4391 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:57:26 -0800
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
Dear Kom,
There should be two english translation (or for other languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana pannatti(sabhava-with individual essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the avijjamana pannatti (asabhava-without individual essence)as concept.But I still can't decide  which should the word be used for both kinds combine like tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of avijjamana and vijjamanapannatti).
Nyanamoli used the word produce for nipphanna and positively produce for parinipphanna.I think it is good enough.From this you can see our text book didn't put the avijjamanapannatti(concept) as uncondition because it is still positively produce besides anipphanna.Asankhata pannatti(nibbana,nirodha etc)is anipphanna and aparinipphanna.
I can't do anything if the other members in this list for still having the wrong view that pannatti are all without individual essence.See puggala pannatti text for khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti etc.
From Teng Kee



Dear Teng Kee,
> 
> Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to
> discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined
> book).  Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in
> English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts
> mentioned:
> 
> The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes
> between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti
> (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).
> 
> 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
> what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå
> (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 .
> 
> 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
> what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner.
> These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta
> and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner
> are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional
> realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala
> citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign?
> Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a
> dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai
> or foreign.
> 
> 3...6 skipped here.  (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf)
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: teng kee ong 
> >
> > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is
> > uncondition.We have two kinds of
> 
> 6 kinds...according to the book (and maybe Vissudhimagga?)
> 
> > pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and
> > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti
> > are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana
> > pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata
> 
> I am sorry for being a bit slow here, but would you give
> definitions for nipphana and parinipphana?  I can't find the
> definitions anywhere on the internet.  (I can guess what
> nipphana is as there is such thing as "nipphana rupa", but I
> can't guess at parinipphana).
> 
> kom
> 

 
4392 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  dear teng,
I am not sure if I follow you on this matter.
the  Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six
kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti 
        "1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what
is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or
sanna (perception) 10.

         2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what
is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts
do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which
are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the
absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti
dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be
Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a
reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is
not Thai or foreign.

         3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the
non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the
person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but
person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real
and for what is not real.

         4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the
existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression
"woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real.

         5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is
real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana
(eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the
cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or
visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality,
namely the reality which experiences.

         6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what
is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression
"the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are
sammutti dhammas, conventional realities""
___


Note that #1 vijamma pannati refers to concepts about elements
that are real. The  words used to decribe them are of course
concepts and are thus classified as pannatti but the actual
paramattha dhammas refered to such as the khandas, ayatanas and
dhatus - which have sabhava- are not themselves pannatti.


robert



--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:57:26 -0800
> > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
> Dear Kom,
> There should be two english translation (or for other
> languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana pannatti(sabhava-with
> individual essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and
> asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the avijjamana
> pannatti (asabhava-without individual essence)as concept.But I
> still can't decide  which should the word be used for both
> kinds combine like tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of
> avijjamana and vijjamanapannatti).
> Nyanamoli used the word produce for nipphanna and positively
> produce for parinipphanna.I think it is good enough.From this
> you can see our text book didn't put the
> avijjamanapannatti(concept) as uncondition because it is still
> positively produce besides anipphanna.Asankhata
> pannatti(nibbana,nirodha etc)is anipphanna and aparinipphanna.
> I can't do anything if the other members in this list for
> still having the wrong view that pannatti are all without
> individual essence.See puggala pannatti text for
> khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti etc.
> From Teng Kee
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Teng Kee,
> > 
> > Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to
> > discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined
> > book).  Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in
> > English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts
> > mentioned:
> > 
> > The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes
> > between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti
> > (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).
> > 
> > 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
> > what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå
> > (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 .
> > 
> > 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
> > what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner.
> > These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta
> > and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner
> > are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional
> > realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala
> > citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign?
> > Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a
> > dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai
> > or foreign.
> > 
> > 3...6 skipped here.  (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf)
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: teng kee ong 
> > >
> > > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is
> > > uncondition.We have two kinds of
> > 
> > 6 kinds...according to the book (and maybe Vissudhimagga?)
> > 
> > > pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and
> > > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti
> > > are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana
> > > pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata
> > 
> > I am sorry for being a bit slow here, but would you give
> > definitions for nipphana and parinipphana?  I can't find the
> > definitions anywhere on the internet.  (I can guess what
> > nipphana is as there is such thing as "nipphana rupa", but I
> > can't guess at parinipphana).
> > 
> > kom

 
4393 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Ven Dhammapiyo,

May I also say how sorry I was to hear about the
passing away of your friend, but how fortunate it was
that he was able to appreciate the dhamma until the
end.

--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"
 wrote: >
> 
> I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here.
> On one hand there is
> great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing
> of deep Dhamma but on
> the other hand, where is the practical application?

On the other hand, I thought the dialogue you refer to
was rather a useful (but difficult) one and that there
was a lot of 'practical application'. Both Erik and
Cybele were very sincere and honest with their
comments, I thought, and were genuinely trying to
share their different undrstandings of the Teachings. 

> There is something of a
> kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary.
> Something seems to be
> missing.

May I ask what you mean by dukkha? 
> 
> Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study".
> 
> But how about a bit more practice like there was
> only 5 minutes or less left
> for each of us to be alive?

May I also know what you mean by practice? Can we tell
when another is practising?
> 
> Something is not right here. There is a lot of
> clinging and grasping I see
> in the writing.
> 
> Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply
> this Dhamma and not just
> relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others
> (including non-sentient
> beings) then what is the point?

Isn't there a lot of clinging and grasping for us all,
all day long anyway? Is the aim really to 'relieve
dukkha'? Perhaps I should also ask what you mean by
'apply Dhamma' and how we release ourselves and
OTHERS?

Ven Sir, I'm just trying to understand your comments
which are a little perplexing to me. I would
appreciate a brief elaboration.

With Regards,

Sarah



 
4394 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Please send me a copy.

Desmond B. Chiong
1455 San Marino Ave.,
San Marino, CA 91108
USA

metta,
des


>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
>Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:56:30 -0800 (PST)
>
>dear teng,
>this matter is explained in Realities and Concepts by sujin
>Boriharnwanaket. If you send me your address off-list I still
>have a few copies left and will airmail it pronto.
>robert
>--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
> > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:25:07 -0800
> > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
> > Dear Kom,
> > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is uncondition.We
> > have two kinds of pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and
> > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti are those
> > khandha ,dhatu,ayatana pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and
> > asankhata pannatti(aparinipphana and anipphana).Avijjhamana
> > pannatti like puggala,king ,son, etc are only anipphana  but
> > not aparinipphana .So this kind of pannatti can be called half
> > uncondition.It is  a condition dhamma for both kind of
> > concepts except asankhata pannatti.see puggala pannatti
> > text,atthakatha,tika and anutika.
> > from Teng Kee



 
4395 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts - nature of

 
  Erik

I see a number of points of apparent disagreement in
our posts, which I would like to follow along.

> The way I see this is that pannatti may lack their
> "own" essence (so 
> do all dhammas) but they must take on the
> characteristic of what 
> they're pointing to. How could it be otherwise?

I am not familiar with this idea of a concept ‘taking
on the characteristic’ of what it’s pointing to.  If
one thinks of, for example, a number (say, 9), exactly
what ‘characteristic’ does that thought ‘take on’?
 
> A pannatti has 
> to "mark" an arammana somehow to distinguish it from
> another 
> arammana. Otherwise there'd be no way to distinguish
> arammana A from 
> arammana B, no way to distinguish "red" from "blue."

This sounds pretty much like a description of the
function of the cetasika ‘sanna’.
From the Atthasalini:  "[Sanna] has the characteristic
of noting and the function of recognising what has
previously been noted. … [It has] the function of
making marks as a condition for repeated perception
(for recognising or remembering)"

> Even if we speak 
> of pannatti in relation paramattha
> dhammas--especially in relation to 
> paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a
> distinguishing 
> characteristic and still perform the function of
> "pointing to" the 
> arammana?

This is another aspect of pannatti that I have not
come across before.  Could you give an example of how
pannatti ‘points to an arammana’?

> Also, to my understanding, pannatti are
> sammati-sacca, 
> meaning that they are sankhara dhammas as well.
> 
> > Pannatti are entirely a creation of the mind, and
> > therefore have no substance whatsoever.  
> 
> What dhamma has substance? Even rupa lacks essence,
> "substance," 
> because it's anatta & anicca. This does not make
> pannatti unique in 
> this regard. 
> 
> Also, I am curious to hear what the Abhidhamma
> position is on what is 
> NOT a creation of the mind apart from nibbana. Would
> paramattha 
> dhammas even "exist" without a nama there to
> perceive rupa? The 
> better-known version of this question is, if a tree
> falls in the 
> forest and there's no sota-vinnana there, is there a
> sound at all?

More precisely, do rupas (in the example you have
given) arise and fall when not being experienced by
namas, or do they only arise and fall at the precise
moments of being experienced by namas?  

Forget the tree in the forest for the moment.  Take
the visible object that you presently take for
computer monitor.  If you were to close your eyes so
that that visible object is no longer being
experienced, would it continue to arise and fall away?

The answer i believe must be that, as a conditioned
dhamma, the visible object will arise and fall awaay
if there are the conditions for it to continue to do
so.  What are those conditions?  According to the 
abhidhamma, all rupas are conditioned by either kamma,
consciousness, temperature or nutriment.  The rupas
that we take for rocks, wind etc are conditioned by
temperature alone.  Whatever the particular
conditioning factor at play, the point is that all
these conditioning factors exists independently of our
perceiving of the rupa which is the conditioned
reality.

Erik, thanks for all your points and comments.

Jon



 
4396 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:11am
Subject: Thank you

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thank you for your condolences. Bill was surely one who tasted
enlightenment --- of this I have no doubts now. I observed incredible
changes because of his complete entrance in the Refuge. He practiced
formally and informally. He used every second to practice and sometimes we
shared wonderful humor and laughs.

His insight was astounding and his rigorous honesty refreshing. These were
cause for his ability to gain wisdom and share it.

It is a terrible loss not just to me personally but to all of us who could
learn from this loving and most compassionate human being. But then, too,
perhaps nothing is lost as the inspiration continues.

All his efforts before his sudden death were in preparation to support the
Dhamma any way he could.

I think he did just that right up to the end.

I am leaving Nepal for a period of time to travel to the US. There is much
work to be done for the Foundation and the hospital project. I am also
recovering from viral pericarditis, a liver abscess, and repeated problems
from water contamination here that lead to those two other complications,
and my physician here is insisting I rest, and I have promised him I will do
so...but work at a different pace! (Compromise thing going on there!) My
first stop was to visit with my parents and then on to Bill's, where we were
going to work together on all kinds of things. If there ever was a lesson to
be learned from this, I think it has been a most profound one.

Bill and I agreed on something --- and the words are quite poignant and
timely advice for us all: Practice like you only have 5 minutes or less to
live the rest of your life!

Again, thank you. I appreciate your taking the time to write.

May this find you well.

Metta and Love,

Bhante D.

 
4397 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 3/27/01 12:53:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kom writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Howard 
> > "To exist is to be
> > observable" in the sense that if certain
> > experiences are made to occur, then
> > certain other experiences will also occur. So,
> > when I say "The sky is blue",
> > for example, what I mean is something along the
> > following lines (still with
> > heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should
> > someone with functionally
> > unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will
> > see the color blue"; i.e.,
> > Should this occur, then that will occur; When
> > this arises, then that arises
> > (but all in experiential terms rather than
> > existential terms).
> >        I haven't put this very well. i hope you
> > get my drift.
> >
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.  I think we are closer than I
> thought we were.  How would you answer the question that
> Erik asked (if a tree falls in the forest and "makes sound"
> and there is nobody there to observe it, does the sound
> exist?).
> 
> kom
> 
====================================
       This last question isn't dissimilar to the blue sky question. The main 
point, as I see it, is: What does it mean that "a tree falls in the forest"? 
The more standard point is: What does it mean to make sound? Is it 
(potential) experience, or is it something independent of experience? With 
regard to either point, as I see it, this is an experiential matter, either 
actual or conditional. [Relatedly, but somewhat as a side issue, there is an 
orderliness to the world of experience, and it is a shared world, an 
intersubjective world. What occurs within one "beings" 's experience is 
related to what occurs within another's. It all hangs together, which is what 
supports the impression of an objective, external "reality", independent of 
even the possibility of observation.] I think the main point of the question 
is actually: If an event occurs, but no sentient being observes it, does it 
really occur? As I see it, one has to ask what is meant at the very outset by 
"the event occurring". To me that has to mean that "it" was either observed 
by at least one sentient being or, more generally, if certain steps had been 
taken, then it *would* have been so observed; i.e., due to previous 
experiential events, a certain conditionality was established.
       This is about the best I can do. I'm not a philosopher. All that I can 
add is my general sense of the world being *like* a dream, in fact, like a 
brilliantly engineered lucid dream. 
       I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a bit off-topic 
for the list, and probably should only be continued privately. Whether 
matters are the way I see them or not is not critical to the Buddha's path to 
liberation. Some say his approach was that of phenomenalism, and others 
disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and the escape from 
suffering.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4398 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 3/27/01 2:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Herman H writes:


> Kom,
> 
> I know the question was not directed to me, but I couldn't resist the
> temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-)
> 
> 
> There is no tree and there is no forest without nama/rupa. There is rupa
> without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself or anything else for that
> matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling over all over the place all
> the time, but the forms this takes, and the qualities this has, are shaped
> by nama/rupa. What something would be without it being known is .........
> unknowable.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
================================
This is almost exactly my position as well. Your last sentence, "What 
something would be without it being known is ......... unknowable.," is 
quintessential phenomenalism!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4399 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:22am
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Erik, this mail is returned as failed delivery and therefore I am 
resending it now.

From:  "cybele chiodi" 
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik
Date:  Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:56:11 -0000

Dear Erik

A bit of flare up can enlive and give a bit of spice to 'season' all the 
'mind crunching', I am glad you decided eventually to reply:

I wrote in response to your affirmation that you deliberately 'ignored me' 
in the list interaction:

>I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of
compounded
>phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to
confront
>REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping
confrontation with your practice.

You replied:
I dare to say you are making a very presumptuous statement here in
attempting to ascertain another's practice. How can you possibly know
what goes on in another's mind? Think on this one long and hard and
ask yourself if it's reasonable to make assumptions about another's
mentality based on no more than a few splotches of light and dark on
a computer screen. Also, let me be very clear on one point. I do not
discuss meditation experiences with others unless they happen to be
my teachers, and it is in the context of explaining what's going on
in the interest of getting corrective instruction. There is heart-
advice directly against doing so by my lineage's founder, Je
Tsongkhapa, who said that "it is wise to keep one's realizations
hidden as if guarding precious treasures."

My response:
I don't know indeed what goes on your mind and I simply invited you to share 
it in front of this virtual Dhamma brotherhood.
What I meant in my 'assumption' it was basically that refusing to expose 
about your real experience and discussing it only on dialetic terms you and 
us were wasting an opportunity of disclosure on your actual Dhamma practice 
that's what's most interesting and nurturing for ourselves and others in 
this discussions.
I was not being pedantic, you miscostrued my approach.
If ever we continue interacting you will perceive that I am not at all
presumptuos. Perhaps a bit impertinent as bhante well know. ;-)
I was not at all intending to be judgemental about your practice Erik, my 
concern was exclusively to stimulate you to accept discussing on your own 
terms and not just sticking to the intellectual aspect of Dhamma.
And I did not mean you to explicate about your meditation experiences in 
particular; I was not alluding to it and I respect if you consider them a 
private issue.
But we are together in Dhamma walking our solitary path Erik and sharing 
real experiences is encouraging and gives us the real dimension of our 
practice in my opinion, otherwise often we lose ourselves in sterile mental 
twisting seeking intellectual pleasure and the reassurance of a logical
pattern and we grow apart from what Dhamma is about, present moment. Like 
now just discussing this issues with me and I and you realizing our aversion 
and delusion and arrogance and misunderstanding. Touching it, experiencing 
our mind states.
This is Dhamma for me, I am investigating my mind right now while I am
trying to clarify with you.
I am talking with you in all earnest Erik, you might not trust but I am not 
an ambivalent person and some people here could vow on my sincerity.
No need to be defensive with me, I am not attacking you at all in my
confrontations - I genuinely want to share not only to enhance my point or 
prove you wrong.

Metta
Cybele





 
4400 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik

 
  Dear Erik

>--- "cybele chiodi" 
>wrote:
>
> > And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of
>factors for
> > it.
>
>For the record, the Abhidharma is an integral part of the Tibetan
>canon, and is studied by all schools. Perhaps studying the Tipitaka's
>version as well as the Tibetan Abhidharmakosa is somewhat unorthodox,
>but then again, this sort of comparative analysis hasn't been this
>easy until now, either (I am lucky enough to have one of three extant
>translations of the Tibetan recension of the Abhidharmakosa in
>English). To me this presents an unusual opportunity I have found
>difficult to pass up.


Good for you being openminded and interested in a comparative study of 
Tipitaka's version and the Tibetan Adhidharmakosa.
You are 'breaking the rules' with your unorthodox approach!!! ;-)
Notice the smile Erik, even in this media we can reinforce as soften up 
words with a virtual smile.

>
> > I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the
>least was
> > trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get
>you to
> >share about your practice and not only discuss theory.
>
>Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the Tibetan path here; I was
>referring to scholasticism as a practice in and of itself, which
>includes all the discussions on Dhamma going on here. It's a very
>powerful practice, so long as the concepts don't become stand-ins for
>what they're pointing at. Discussing theory IS practice if approached
>the right way, if we're not attached to the words, but are instead
>concerned with what the words point at (I think I've been
>unmistakably clear this is my approach). Likewise, ANY practice can
>become poison if approached the wrong way, study, "dynamic
>meditation," etc. The Middle Way is not so easy.

Is there anything EASY Erik? We all strive in this Middle Way as in the 
radical ways for that matter. We strive anyway and it's called dukkha.
Indeed what I was trying to point out was exactly this very common attitude 
of shielding ourselves behind words and concepts and attaching to them 
defending extrenuously our positions, getting stuck in erudition instead of 
learning the fresh, invigorating lesson of the present moment.
When you affirm things about your convictions chosing words like 
'unmistakable' I wonder Erik; what can we be so secure about our beliefs and 
our skills of living in coeherence with them?
And above all our capacity of communicating them in a clear, nitid, 
'unmistakable' way?
I change mind every second as you as everybody else, therefore all this 
perpetual values do not exist for me.
Nothing can ever be 'unmistakable' unless we are enlightened.
I 'awake' day after day to another reality and 'study it' and learn from it 
getting my fresh insights.
The journey is so long and tiring my dhamma brother and grasping to our 
'convictions' doesn't make it easier at all.
The only thing that soothes our burning pain is loving kindness and 
compassion.

Love and respect
Cybele




 
4401 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 6:01am
Subject: Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:

> I am not familiar with this idea of a concept `taking
> on the characteristic' of what it's pointing to.  If
> one thinks of, for example, a number (say, 9), exactly
> what `characteristic' does that thought `take on'?

It takes on a characteristic that distinguishes 9 from 10, for 
example. Perhaps a quote from Khun Sujim would clarify, because it's 
the closest I can find to what I've been trying to say:

"Even though [pannatti] are not paramattha-dhamma, they are arammana 
of the cittuppada by their signs or the shadow of meanings (the 
parallel of paramattha) designated in such a manner because it 
parallels or compares by making known [with language] the sign or 
features so that people can say, understand one another, call, make 
known the meanings."

> > Even if we speak 
> > of pannatti in relation paramattha
> > dhammas--especially in relation to 
> > paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a
> > distinguishing 
> > characteristic and still perform the function of
> > "pointing to" the 
> > arammana?
> 
> This is another aspect of pannatti that I have not
> come across before.  Could you give an example of how
> pannatti `points to an arammana'?

Perhaps "points to" is a poor choice of words. "Represents" is 
better, I think. See above on this, anyway.

Jon, thanks for your other comments on the "tree falling in the 
forest" question. I see it another way at the moment, namely, that 
even if there is rupa in theory that rises and falls, since it isn't 
happening now as direct experience, it hardly matters; the question's 
academic. Or, more to the point, there's nothing "real" apart from 
what's being cognized at any given instant, so the question doesn't 
even apply.

 
 
4402 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Des,

I sent this out sometime ago but it didn't seem to show in the list 
messages, so please ignore if there is duplication:

While you are waiting for Robert's book you might want to take a look 
at the chapter on pannatti in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhama' in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> ,

Amara

 

 
4404 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Howard,

Thanks for your comments.

I should reread the whole thread on "cognizing nibbbana". It has thrown up
interesting perspectives.

Speaking of which, how would the concept of "should" or "must" (as in a
moral imperative) be translated into the syntax of not-self?

I often wonder what is meant when it is written, for example : "you should
study the dhamma" . Who or what is being addressed?

Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard <Howard>
Date: Wednesday, 28 March 2001 3:40
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana


>Hi, Herman -
>
>In a message dated 3/27/01 2:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>Herman H writes:
>
>
>> Kom,
>>
>> I know the question was not directed to me, but I couldn't resist the
>> temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-)
>>
>>
>> There is no tree and there is no forest without nama/rupa. There is rupa
>> without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself or anything else for
that
>> matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling over all over the place
all
>> the time, but the forms this takes, and the qualities this has, are
shaped
>> by nama/rupa. What something would be without it being known is .........
>> unknowable.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>>
>>
>> Herman
>>

 
4405 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mana :pride and esteem

 
  Dear Erik, Num & Howard,

Erik, I thought all your additional comments on this
subject below were 'spot on'. Thankyou. You've
obviously read and considered a lot about mana.

I'll add just one more quote that Nina VG refers to in
'Cetasikas'*:

Nina writes: 'So long as conceit has not been
eradicated there are many opportunities for its
arising. It arises more often than we would think. The
Book of Analysis (Vibhanga,Ch 17, 832) gives a very
reveling list of the objects on account of which pride
and conceit can aise:

"Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride
of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being
honoured; pride of being respected; pride of
prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of
wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride
of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable
authority; pride of being (a regular) alms collector;
accomplishment; pride of popularity; pride of being
moral; pride of jhana; pride of dexterity; pride of
being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of
form; pride of (bodily) perfection..." 'end quotes

As Erik reminds us, it can be any comparing with
another- superior, inferior or equal with regard to
these prides above. Hmm....

I've just checked the reference in the Vibhanga and
there's a lot more detail. it discusses just this
point above and further conceits included with
'thinking associated with sympathy for others;
thinking associated with gain, being honoured, fame;
thinking associated with being not despised'. 

Really almost any thinking about ourselves or others
can be accompanied by mana!

Howard & Erik, following on yr discussion on theory
and practice, for me this kind of study and
consideration is a very useful condition for reminders
and moments of awareness to occur during my rather
hectic daily life.
 
During the last year, the list in particular, has
meant I've done a lot more writing, considering and
pulling out of texts than usual. This has all been
invaluable to my 'dynamic meditation' (thanks Cybele)
in daily life. Even as I sit here writing about mana,
there are moments when mana is apparent! 

Thanks again, Erik.

regards,
Sarah

* Howard, You mentioned in another post about
interactions of cetasikas without the tables and dry
lists...you'll really appreciate Nina VG's 'Cetasikas'
when you get a copy or when it goes on line.

--- Erik wrote:
> There is actually another side to mana, and that's
> false modesty. So 
> I think the dustrag analogy is also mana if taken
> the wrong way, 
> though this form is subtler and certainly not as
> offensive to others! 
> In all cases mana, at root, is based on comparing
> self & other, no 
> matter how innocuous that comparison may appear.
> 
> Here's are some other categories of mana I'm
> familiar with:
> 
> Pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one
> is superior
> to lower persons
> 
> Excessive pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking
> that one
> is superior to equal persons
> 
> Pride beyond pride--a puffing up of the mind,
> thinking that
> one is greatly superior even to persons who are
> superior to
> others
> 
> Pride of thinking I--a puffing up of the mind,
> observing the
> appropriated aggregates of mind and body and
> thinking, 'I'
> 
> Pride of conceit--a puffing up of the mind, thinking
> that one
> has attained what has not been attained, such as
> clairvoyance
> or meditative stabilization
> 
> Pride of slight inferiority--a puffing up of the
> mind, thinking
> that one is just a little lower than others who are
> actually
> greatly superior
> 
> Wrongful pride--a puffing up the mind, thinking that
> one has
> attained auspicious qualities when one has actually
> deviated
> from the path, such as claiming high attainments
> when one
> has actually been carried away by a spirit.
> 
> On that note, I find it interesting that the
> Polynesian languages 
> have the word "Mana" (pride, power) as well, and
> it's wide enough to 
> connote the meaning of the Pali term.
> 



 
4406 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Alex & Des,

Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm
not quite sure what you mean by observing
consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at
the start). Do you just mean 'citta'?

--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> Observing consciousness does not work.
> It is worked on.
> Every time a conciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa]
> happens, the observing 
> consciousness is awakened.

Now if Alex means a 'citta', I'm even more confused
here. Citta can either experience an object (through
sense and mind doors) or be experienced (through the
mind door). Your definition to include citta, cetasika
and rupa must be something quite different. Do you
mean paramattha dhamma? Sorry, I'm lost. 

> In ordinary language, we say observing
> consciousness, as though it is a 
> subject. Actually it is an object.

Pls explain.

> It is always very tricky to use the ordinary
> language to describe extra 
> ordinary events.
> All our understanding may all be the same, at a
> certain advanced level.

..or it may be very different! We can only know if we
discuss and clarify.

> But to use ordinary language to agree that we
> understand the same may not be 
> that easy.
> The best way two people understand one another is
> when they sit side by side 
> and one understand the other with no talking.

I'm not so sure that we'd get very far....unless we
have mind-reading abilities!

> Just like when Buddha held a flower, Mahakasapa
> smiled.

Well, there is no doubt about their abilities, but I
sugggest we have a way to go, Des!

Thanks for your interesting and stimulating
contributions!

best regards,

Sarah

p.s. I just saw yr address brifely..did I note that
you were in California? (maybe my sanna's playing
tricks with old age..) If so, hope you get to visit
Kom one day in S.F.


 
4407 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View :metta and secret

 
  Dear Num, (& Rob at the end)

Num said:
> Hmmmm.  When I said that to Cybele I meant adosa
> cetasika has it's immediate 
> action as well as it's consequence in kusula-vipaka
> to the one who had done 
> the action with adosa cetasika.   So the fruit is
> not only outward effect to 
> the entities or people as but also give both
> immediate and future effects to 
> a person who had done any actions with metta.       
>  Anyway, you made me 
> think.  At times I am mad or angry at myself, or
> really give myself a hard 
> time.  At times I can aware of my sense of self and
> just that moment of 
> awareness gave me sense of calm and peace, feeling
> of friendliness even to 
> myself.   Can I call that metta? May be just call it
> adosa moment.

Hmm.... Sounds like some useful reflection anyway at
those times, probably with adosa as you say, but not
metta. 
There are many kinds and degrees of alobha. Metta
(loving kindness) is only directed to (other) living
beings. 

Adosa (non aversion) can even be directed to an object
such as when there is patience with bodily poin such
as when we have a toothache or any other unpleasant
sense-door experience. I do agree with you about the
beneficial results of metta to others and oneself, but
of course at moments of concern about the benefits to
oneself, there is no metta!

Hope this clarifies, though I think you know this
already!

Sorry for the delays, it's really hard for me to keep
up with your running pace!

metta (at least a few moments anyway!),
Sarah
> 
> <<let me in on your secret; what do you
> learn from animals and trees??!??>>
> 
> :) there is no secret, Sarah.  What I've learned is
> they are the same as 
> other dhamma, just a aggregation of rupa or rupa and
> nama.  The frogs with 
> fast life cycles egg, tadpole,..., adult. They lay
> eggs and die. 

Rob, you said in this context: 'About contemplating
the external mental objects. i assume this is a type
of inferential contemplation. Any ideas?"

Yes, this is how I understand it and have also read
it..was just looking for a com. note i came across
recently in Maj Nik on just this oint, but have lost
'my marker'..but it said just this.


 
4408 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  Dear Amara,

I've appreciated all your posts to Cybele and I think
it's very helpful to point out the different shades of
dosa (aversion).

You may just wish to re-do this paragraph below
because I think in your haste you mixed up dosa
(aversion) with dukkha vedana (unpleasant bodily
feeling). 

For others, they are both nama (mental phenomena), but
they arise at different moments and under different
conditions. Dukkha vedana is vipakka (result of kamma)
while dosa is akusala (unwholesome).
Sarah

 --- Amara  wrote: > 

> Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be
> very subtle, as in 
> each time the body sense is in contact with
> something that is not 
> causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can
> only be lobha or 
> dosa as vedana, and no upekkha.  Or it can be very
> strong aversion to 
> something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest
> form, a thundering 
> anger. 


 
4409 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman

 
  > You may just wish to re-do this paragraph below
> because I think in your haste you mixed up dosa
> (aversion) with dukkha vedana (unpleasant bodily
> feeling). 
> 
> For others, they are both nama (mental phenomena), but
> they arise at different moments and under different
> conditions. Dukkha vedana is vipakka (result of kamma)
> while dosa is akusala (unwholesome).
> Sarah

Dear Sarah, 

You're right, of course, they are totally different and one does not 
entail the other (though most of the time they do), absolutely my 
mistake, thanks for pointing that out!

Amara

> > Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be
> > very subtle, as in 
> > each time the body sense is in contact with
> > something that is not 
> > causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can
> > only be lobha or 
> > dosa as vedana, and no upekkha.  Or it can be very
> > strong aversion to 
> > something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest
> > form, a thundering 
> > anger. 
> 
> 

 
4410 From: Herman 
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:34pm
Subject: Dogma or experience?

 
  Hi all,

I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one 
after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has 
been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as 
experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the 
locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if 
any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas 
arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where 
one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to 
mind)


Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer 
than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been 
experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without 
references to whoever experienced this)?

It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can 
it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , 
whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the 
same time, given that there is only ever one citta?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Kind Regards


Herman

 
4411 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Robert,
I know about this .For a long time I can't be sure that 5 kinds vijjamanapannatti(besides that asankhata pannatti) for khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya pannatti,the words is another thing from the sabhava paramattha dhamma that been referred to-the word is concept only?.I think this apply only to avijjamanapannatti but not to vijjamana pannatti.This is why we must use two different english words for both kinds plus third kind for those two been combine into.Modern Myanamar think that there are two uncondition -one is nibbana ,the second is all pannatti.But there are a special pannatti named asankhata pannatti like nirodha ,nibbana etc which will not occur if all pannatti is uncondition.No reason to think like that because I think the vijjamana pannatti is the word used and taught by Buddha sasana only but not for other religion.
I will come out with more notes based on kathavathu .
From Teng Kee


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:58:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana


> dear teng,
> I am not sure if I follow you on this matter.
> the  Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six
> kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti 
>         "1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what
> is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or
> sanna (perception) 10.
> 
>          2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what
> is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts
> do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which
> are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the
> absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti
> dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be
> Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a
> reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is
> not Thai or foreign.
> 
>          3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the
> non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the
> person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but
> person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real
> and for what is not real.
> 
>          4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the
> existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression
> "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real.
> 
>          5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is
> real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana
> (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the
> cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or
> visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality,
> namely the reality which experiences.
> 
>          6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what
> is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression
> "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are
> sammutti dhammas, conventional realities""
> ___
> 
> 
> Note that #1 vijamma pannati refers to concepts about elements
> that are real. The  words used to decribe them are of course
> concepts and are thus classified as pannatti but the actual
> paramattha dhammas refered to such as the khandas, ayatanas and
> dhatus - which have sabhava- are not themselves pannatti.
> 
> 
> robert
> 
> 
> 
> --- teng kee ong  wrote:
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
> > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:57:26 -0800
> > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
> > Dear Kom,
> > There should be two english translation (or for other
> > languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana pannatti(sabhava-with
> > individual essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and
> > asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the avijjamana
> > pannatti (asabhava-without individual essence)as concept.But I
> > still can't decide  which should the word be used for both
> > kinds combine like tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of
> > avijjamana and vijjamanapannatti).
> > Nyanamoli used the word produce for nipphanna and positively
> > produce for parinipphanna.I think it is good enough.From this
> > you can see our text book didn't put the
> > avijjamanapannatti(concept) as uncondition because it is still
> > positively produce besides anipphanna.Asankhata
> > pannatti(nibbana,nirodha etc)is anipphanna and aparinipphanna.
> > I can't do anything if the other members in this list for
> > still having the wrong view that pannatti are all without
> > individual essence.See puggala pannatti text for
> > khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti etc.
> > From Teng Kee
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Teng Kee,
> > > 
> > > Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to
> > > discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined
> > > book).  Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in
> > > English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts
> > > mentioned:
> > > 
> > > The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes
> > > between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti
> > > (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).
> > > 
> > > 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
> > > what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå
> > > (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 .
> > > 
> > > 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known
> > > what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner.
> > > These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta
> > > and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner
> > > are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional
> > > realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala
> > > citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign?
> > > Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a
> > > dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai
> > > or foreign.
> > > 
> > > 3...6 skipped here.  (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf)
> > > 

 
4412 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  Dear Herman,

Does being 'experienced' by a Buddha count?  Because he also said that 
there were countless other worlds over 2500 years before men were able 
to build telescopes powerful enough to 'see' other planets than those 
in our solar system.

Amara


> I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, 
one 
> after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has 
> been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as 
> experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the 
> locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if 
> any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas 
> arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where 
> one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to 
> mind)
> 
> 
> Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer 
> than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been 
> experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without 
> references to whoever experienced this)?
> 
> It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How 
can 
> it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , 
> whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at 
the 
> same time, given that there is only ever one citta?
> 
> Any insights would be appreciated.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman

 
4413 From: Num 
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mana :pride and esteem

 
  Thanks always Sarah for your detailed and careful response.

<<<<
 I've just checked the reference in the Vibhanga and
 there's a lot more detail. it discusses just this
 point above and further conceits included with
 'thinking associated with sympathy for others;
 thinking associated with gain, being honoured, fame;
 thinking associated with being not despised'. 
 
 Really almost any thinking about ourselves or others
 can be accompanied by mana! >>

I have Vibhanga by PTS with me.  I could not find where is the above quote in 
the book.  If you have time, could you tell me what par. no. is it in. Thanks 
in advance.

I totally agree with you that mana occur very very often, at times hard to 
see b/c it arises with lobha and satisfaction. But it can cause dosa to arise 
later.  Mana cannot arise with adosa cetasika or metta.  We compare ourselves 
with other or even with ourselves quite often.

Have to run to my tennis lesson before go into work. You caught me Sarah, I 
am the runner :)

Until later.

Appreciate,

Num

 
4414 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mana :pride and esteem

 
  Hi Num,

--- Num wrote: > Thanks always Sarah for
your detailed and careful
> response.
> 
> <<<<
>  I've just checked the reference in the Vibhanga and
>  there's a lot more detail. it discusses just this
>  point above and further conceits included with
>  'thinking associated with sympathy for others;
>  thinking associated with gain, being honoured,
> fame;
>  thinking associated with being not despised'. 
>  
>  Really almost any thinking about ourselves or
> others
>  can be accompanied by mana! >>
> 
> I have Vibhanga by PTS with me.  I could not find
> where is the above quote in 
> the book.  If you have time, could you tell me what
> par. no. is it in. Thanks 
> in advance.

same ref as for the earlier quote, except now para
346.
PTS copy, p.452, very bottom of the page...I left out
some, just the last few examples... 

S.



 
4415 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:59pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  dear Teng,
I sent Realities and Concepts today to both you and Des.
It is somewhat terse so doesn't give all the details we would
like but still clarifies a great deal. Pannatti can be a
condition - there is no doubt  about this, but there are
differences in the way it conditions (compared to paramattha
dhamma). The Patthana has something about this too.
I have discussed this at times with Acharn Sujin and find her
explanations very helpful and directly related to how we
experience dhammas now. 
And of course I look forward very much to any writing and
translation you do on the topic.
robert
--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> I know about this .For a long time I can't be sure that 5
> kinds vijjamanapannatti(besides that asankhata pannatti) for
> khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya pannatti,the words is
> another thing from the sabhava paramattha dhamma that been
> referred to-the word is concept only?.I think this apply only
> to avijjamanapannatti but not to vijjamana pannatti.This is
> why we must use two different english words for both kinds
> plus third kind for those two been combine into.Modern
> Myanamar think that there are two uncondition -one is nibbana
> ,the second is all pannatti.But there are a special pannatti
> named asankhata pannatti like nirodha ,nibbana etc which will
> not occur if all pannatti is uncondition.No reason to think
> like that because I think the vijjamana pannatti is the word
> used and taught by Buddha sasana only but not for other
> religion.
> I will come out with more notes based on kathavathu .
> From Teng Kee
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:58:28 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
> 
> 
> > dear teng,
> > I am not sure if I follow you on this matter.
> > the  Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between
> six
> > kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti 
> >         "1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known
> what
> > is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling),
> or
> > sanna (perception) 10.
> > 
> >          2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known
> what
> > is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These
> concepts
> > do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika
> which
> > are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the
> > absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti
> > dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness)
> be
> > Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a
> > reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic,
> it is
> > not Thai or foreign.
> > 
> >          3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of
> the
> > non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression
> "the
> > person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real
> but
> > person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is
> real
> > and for what is not real.
> > 
> >          4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of
> the
> > existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression
> > "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not
> real.
> > 
> >          5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of
> what is
> > real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana
> > (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the
> > cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour
> or
> > visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a
> reality,
> > namely the reality which experiences.
> > 
> >          6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of
> what
> > is not real based on what is not real. There is the
> expression
> > "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are
> > sammutti dhammas, conventional realities""
> > ___
> > 
> > 
> > Note that #1 vijamma pannati refers to concepts about
> elements
> > that are real. The  words used to decribe them are of course
> > concepts and are thus classified as pannatti but the actual
> > paramattha dhammas refered to such as the khandas, ayatanas
> and
> > dhatus - which have sabhava- are not themselves pannatti.
> > 
> > 
> > robert
> > 

 
4416 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - sarah and venerable D.

 
  dear venerable,
I'm a bit worried to hear of your health problems - please take
good care. I wish a speedy recovery.

dear sarah,
great comments below. 
However, I also felt venerable Dhammapiyo came in with his post
in a timely manner when I too wondered if it was starting to get
a little heated between Erik and Cybele. It may have been just
the reminder we all need - we are not here to debate but to
learn and help.
Since then I have much appreciated the excellent exchange
between cybele and Erik. 
robert 

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Ven Dhammapiyo,
> 
> May I also say how sorry I was to hear about the
> passing away of your friend, but how fortunate it was
> that he was able to appreciate the dhamma until the
> end.
> 
> --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"
>  wrote: >
> > 
> > I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here.
> > On one hand there is
> > great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing
> > of deep Dhamma but on
> > the other hand, where is the practical application?
> 
> On the other hand, I thought the dialogue you refer to
> was rather a useful (but difficult) one and that there
> was a lot of 'practical application'. Both Erik and
> Cybele were very sincere and honest with their
> comments, I thought, and were genuinely trying to
> share their different undrstandings of the Teachings. 
> 
> > There is something of a
> > kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary.
> > Something seems to be
> > missing.
> 
> May I ask what you mean by dukkha? 
> > 
> > Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study".
> > 
> > But how about a bit more practice like there was
> > only 5 minutes or less left
> > for each of us to be alive?
> 
> May I also know what you mean by practice? Can we tell
> when another is practising?
> > 
> > Something is not right here. There is a lot of
> > clinging and grasping I see
> > in the writing.
> > 
> > Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply
> > this Dhamma and not just
> > relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others
> > (including non-sentient
> > beings) then what is the point?
> 
> Isn't there a lot of clinging and grasping for us all,
> all day long anyway? Is the aim really to 'relieve
> dukkha'? Perhaps I should also ask what you mean by
> 'apply Dhamma' and how we release ourselves and
> OTHERS?
> 
> Ven Sir, I'm just trying to understand your comments
> which are a little perplexing to me. I would
> appreciate a brief elaboration.
> 
> With Regards,
> 
> Sarah
>

 
 
4417 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience?

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 3/28/01 6:36:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Herman writes:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one 
> after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has 
> been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as 
> experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the 
> locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if 
> any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas 
> arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where 
> one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to 
> mind)
> 
> 
> Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer 
> than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been 
> experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without 
> references to whoever experienced this)?
> 
> It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can 
> it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , 
> whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the 
> same time, given that there is only ever one citta?
> 
> Any insights would be appreciated.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
=================================
       I think these are very important questions. I particularly am 
interested by your pointing out that there must be either experiencing or 
counting, and there is also the whole matter of one citta at a time, each 
lasting for  "moment". The whole ksanavada (sp?) theory of moments, 
originated by the Sautrantikas, I believe, strikes me as problematical, and 
as possibly leading to a form of annihilationism. This is an issue addressed 
by Kalupahana in his book NAGARJUNA. In this same regard, a thought which 
comes to mind (to *my* mind! ;-), is a thought-model introduced in artificial 
intelligence in which the "basic unit' of time is not a point, but, instead, 
is a fuzzy interval.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4418 From: Num 
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View :metta and secret

 
  Hi again Sarah,


> Rob, you said in this context: 'About contemplating
> the external mental objects. i assume this is a type
> of inferential contemplation. Any ideas?"
> 
> Yes, this is how I understand it and have also read
> it..was just looking for a com. note i came across
> recently in Maj Nik on just this oint, but have lost
> 'my marker'..but it said just this.
> 

I'd like to see what the comment says as well.  From my understanding, we 
cannot read a person's mind.  The thing we do all the time is reading by 
interpreting facial expression, verbal, paraverbal and nonverbal language.  I 
think they are all rupa that can come to contact with nama and then I use my 
past and personal experience to interprete the meaning as well as the hidden 
meaning of the expression.  There are some limitation in this process, 
culture.  Different culture at time has different meaning of the same 
expression.   I've read that Pra. Anuruddha could read the moment of lord 
Buddha in mahaparinibhana sutta. I don't know how to call that ability.   And 
the point that Pannatti come in is that we need to have an inference for 
communication.

I have read 2 books a while ago,  Mind Blindness by Simon Baron-Cohen, et al, 
I think he's from Denmark Hill. This book is talking about autistic kid and 
how to develop early screening instrument for Autism for prompt and early 
treatment and rehab.  As you know, autistic kid has severe impairment both in 
verbal and nonverbal communication.  In this book, it mentions some 
interesting theory of how man communicates and shows that how much we base 
our communication in nonverbal clue.

The second one is, The Symbolic Species : The Co-Evolution of Language and 
the Brain by Terrence W. Deacon. He's from Harvard. This one is a little bit 
hard to read. But as I can recall, he said that we cannot read another 
person's mind. Definitely, he talked about concept and symbols which we use 
in communication. These two books are similar in the way that they are very 
evidence based writing. 

Well, that my personal opinion and background.  To me awareness is very 
individual experience.  Rupa and nama arise and fall away extremely fast.  A 
lot of things I think I know are actually and speculation and assumption. 
Well, that why the Buddha called the ultimate truth, Abhidhamma.

What do you think?

Num




 
4419 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/28/01 6:49:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear Herman,
> 
> Does being 'experienced' by a Buddha count?  Because he also said that 
> there were countless other worlds over 2500 years before men were able 
> to build telescopes powerful enough to 'see' other planets than those 
> in our solar system.
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> > I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, 
> one 
> > after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has 
> > been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as 
> > experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the 
> > locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if 
> > any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas 
> > arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where 
> > one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to 
> > mind)
> > 
> > 
> > Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer 
> > than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been 
> > experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without 
> > references to whoever experienced this)?
> > 
> > It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How 
> can 
> > it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , 
> > whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at 
> the 
> > same time, given that there is only ever one citta?
> > 
> > Any insights would be appreciated.
> > 
> > Kind Regards
> > 
> > 
> > Herman
> 
> 
==================================
       A few points: 

       (1) Certainly in the suttas the Buddha said that mind changes far more 
rapidly than matter. Did he give such exact values there? Or were they only 
given in the books of the Abhidhamma? Or were they only given in the 
commentaries? I think it was in the Abhidhamma. But there isn't strong 
evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha in the same sense that the 
other two pitaka did.
       (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of a matter 
solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru being at 
the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be accepted as 
true?
       (3) Do you really think that folks developed telescopes "because" the 
Buddha spoke of other worlds?

       I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on authority 
and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a program for 
release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for ourselves. The 
more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our confidence 
increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to liberation. 

With metta,
Howard      


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4420 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:25am
Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Alex & Des,
> 
> Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm
> not quite sure what you mean by observing
> consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at
> the start). Do you just mean 'citta'?

Dear Sarah,

   Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally:
----------
Dear friends,

  From:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm

in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says:

"When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye 
consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness' 
whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen 
after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed 
away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing 
consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye 
consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was 
momentary."

The part that interests me the most is the last two statements.  What 
does the author mean by "observing consciousness"?

Thank you,
Alex Tran
---------
   Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same 
question in DSG.  

   Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he 
said "consciousness".  The problem is that each citta has its own 
object.  That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta.  
Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the 
previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same.  If we say 
that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part 
of it, which are the common conditions between the two.  

   The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is 
that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in 
this world: observe the common conditions.  Gradually, with more 
panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta. 

   I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my 
question clearly.

With Metta,
Alex Tran

 
4422 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:42am
Subject: Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> But there isn't strong 
> evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha in the same sense 
that the 
> other two pitaka did.

I don't subscribe to the idea the historical Shakyamuni Buddha 
uttered the words found in the Abhidhamma based on what I've read of 
its history, though it has become quite clear to me that nearly 
everything in the Abhidhamma has a direct support from the suttas. On 
that note, I have no idea if the historical Shakyamuni actually spoke 
the words in the Suttas. The only "proof" to me is in their ability 
to help bring about liberation from suffering.

So to me it hardly matters if the historical Shakyamuni actually 
taught Abhidhamma. What matters to me is how beneficial understanding 
these things is to the goal. It has obviously served many people well 
and will continue to do so. Certainly in terms of a system for 
clearly explaining the Dhamma, Abhidhamma is hard to beat.

>        (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of 
a matter 
> solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru 
being at 
> the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be 
accepted as 
> true?

The way I see it is it's "true enough." In other words, I see it as a 
helpful myth, like the Jataka tales. I imagine it was very useful to 
those steeped in the Indian cosmology of the Buddha's day. It may be 
less useful to those raised with telescopes and quantum physics, 
though perhaps not. It is also possible to view this description of 
the universe in allegorical terms, and that's how I see it these 
days, as a 3-D representation NOT of cosmological space/time, but as 
a helpful way to visualize the various realms of existence.

>        I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on 
authority 
> and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a 
program for 
> release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for 
ourselves. 

I think emphasizing the letter of texts at the expense unpacking 
their inmost meaning chokes the Buddhadhamma, and turns it from a 
dynamic system of liberation into another set of sterile and 
unbeneficial dogmas having nothing to do with freedom. The one thing 
I love most about the Dhamma is it's truly ehipassika. That, and the 
fact it is a "raft," were the two most important characteristics of 
the Dhamma when I began exploring it, and are what made it stand  
(head & shoulders) above other sysems of thought I'd investigated.

Another impressive feature of the Dhamma is how it's managed to 
evolve to suit the various accumulations of its adherents. Few 
systems could appear more dissimilar on surface than certain flavors 
of Buddhism, and yet all contain the identical essence. 

That this problem can be solved from so many different perspectives 
is, to me, a testament to the accuracy of the Buddha's central 
insight into suffering, its origins, its cessation, and the path 
leading to its cessation. What I have seen is that it all holds true, 
no matter how you slice it. What really amazes me is the integrity of 
this essence (4NT, tilakkhana, the need for lokuttara nana to abandon 
the kilesas, for example) across superficially dissimilar schools 
widely separated by both geography and time. 

> The 
> more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our 
confidence 
> increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to 
liberation. 

I could not have said it any better myself. Thank you once again for 
your insights, Howard.

 
4423 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:49am
Subject: Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  > > Dear Herman,
> > 
> > Does being 'experienced' by a Buddha count?  Because he also said 
that 
> > there were countless other worlds over 2500 years before men were 
able 
> > to build telescopes powerful enough to 'see' other planets than 
those 
> > in our solar system.

> ==================================
>        A few points: 
> 
>        (1) Certainly in the suttas the Buddha said that mind changes 
far more 
> rapidly than matter. Did he give such exact values there? Or were 
they only 
> given in the books of the Abhidhamma? Or were they only given in the 
> commentaries? I think it was in the Abhidhamma. But there isn't 
strong 
> evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha in the same sense 
that the 
> other two pitaka did.

Dear Howard,

I'm glad I caught this message just as I was signing off, tomorrow I 
am off on another trip and won't be back til very late if at all.  But 
I will get the exact reference for you when I get back.  About the 
Abhidhamma's authenticity if you searched our group's achives you will 
find some discussions on that also.  


>        (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of 
a matter 
> solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru 
being at 
> the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be 
accepted as 
> true?

He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a 
'Sineru' if I remember correctly.  But if you looked at a galaxy from 
the side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill 
shaped?  Of course he never said to believe even what he taught 
without proving it first, which is the crux for us, did what he teach 
about seeing and visible object true at this moment?  Hearing and 
sound?  Bodysense and 'hardness' or 'motion' at the tip of our 
fingers?  He also said there are things experienced only through the 
mind, for example the subtle rupa.  And things one should not ponder 
because it could never bring wisdom in the Buddhist sense and 
preoccupation with it without awareness of the present does not 
condone to bhavana.  But I personally have never seen anyone able to 
prove anything he taught was wrong, allowing for mistranslation and 
such, of course.


>        (3) Do you really think that folks developed telescopes 
"because" the 
> Buddha spoke of other worlds?


Did I say that?  Although according to some sources people like 
Einstein said, if there is a religion that goes with science it is 
Buddhism.  I simply meant to say that he KNEW even without teliscopes 
that there are other planetary systems all through the universe.

> 
>        I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on 
authority 
> and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a 
program for 
> release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for 
ourselves. The 
> more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our 
confidence 
> increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to 
liberation. 


I agree entirely.  But the more you realize how deep the dhamma is, 
how exact and true it is, one is more and more amazed at his wisdom 
and the more confidence one has that the rest must be true too, unlike 
any other sciences where a theory is continually being revised, 
annotated and corrected and even annulled by more recent ones.  
Nothing like that has happened to his teachings for over 2500+ years, 
and doesn't look likely to happen, especially the parts he teaches us 
about ourselves.

Amara

 
4424 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  When a moment of consciousness [17 cittas] arises out of interactions of 
[nama + rupa] or [citta + cetasika + rupa], (as a result of impingement of a 
stimulus on any of the five sense organs), the mind sense is stimulated or 
impinged as the fifth order of citta [1st= past bhavanga, 2nd= vibrating 
bhavanga, 3rd= arresting bhavanga, 4th sense door citta]in the normal 
sequence of 17 cittas.

Once the mind sense is stimulated, the mind then becomes the subject as the 
observing consciousness, for an extremely short period of time, if one's 
mind is concentrated or one has the vipassana nana.

I don't know how to say it more in words.
Wishing you the best in your practice.

with metta,
des


>From: Alex T
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:25:09 -0000
>
>--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
>wrote:
> > Dear Alex & Des,
> >
> > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm
> > not quite sure what you mean by observing
> > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at
> > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'?
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>    Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally:
>----------
>Dear friends,
>
>   From:
>http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm
>
>in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says:
>
>"When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye
>consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness'
>whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen
>after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed
>away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing
>consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye
>consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was
>momentary."
>
>The part that interests me the most is the last two statements.  What
>does the author mean by "observing consciousness"?
>
>Thank you,
>Alex Tran
>---------
>    Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same
>question in DSG.
>
>    Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he
>said "consciousness".  The problem is that each citta has its own
>object.  That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta.
>Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the
>previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same.  If we say
>that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part
>of it, which are the common conditions between the two.
>
>    The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is
>that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in
>this world: observe the common conditions.  Gradually, with more
>panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta.
>
>    I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my
>question clearly.
>
>With Metta,
>Alex Tran
>


 
4425 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:02am
Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Des,

   Once again, thank you for your compassionate answer.  

With Metta,
Alex Tran

 
4426 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - sarah and venerable D.

 
  Dear Rob

>However, I also felt venerable Dhammapiyo came in with his post
>in a timely manner when I too wondered if it was starting to get
>a little heated between Erik and Cybele. It may have been just
>the reminder we all need - we are not here to debate but to
>learn and help.
>Since then I have much appreciated the excellent exchange
>between cybele and Erik.
>robert

Well Robert
Just to clarify, all my posts to Erik have been written and delivered before 
bhante intervention that nevertheless I very much appreciated.

Love and respect
Cybele

>--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> > Dear Ven Dhammapiyo,
> >
> > May I also say how sorry I was to hear about the
> > passing away of your friend, but how fortunate it was
> > that he was able to appreciate the dhamma until the
> > end.
> >
> > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"
> >  wrote: >
> > >
> > > I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here.
> > > On one hand there is
> > > great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing
> > > of deep Dhamma but on
> > > the other hand, where is the practical application?
> >
> > On the other hand, I thought the dialogue you refer to
> > was rather a useful (but difficult) one and that there
> > was a lot of 'practical application'. Both Erik and
> > Cybele were very sincere and honest with their
> > comments, I thought, and were genuinely trying to
> > share their different undrstandings of the Teachings.
> >
> > > There is something of a
> > > kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary.
> > > Something seems to be
> > > missing.
> >
> > May I ask what you mean by dukkha?
> > >
> > > Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study".
> > >
> > > But how about a bit more practice like there was
> > > only 5 minutes or less left
> > > for each of us to be alive?
> >
> > May I also know what you mean by practice? Can we tell
> > when another is practising?
> > >
> > > Something is not right here. There is a lot of
> > > clinging and grasping I see
> > > in the writing.
> > >
> > > Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply
> > > this Dhamma and not just
> > > relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others
> > > (including non-sentient
> > > beings) then what is the point?
> >
> > Isn't there a lot of clinging and grasping for us all,
> > all day long anyway? Is the aim really to 'relieve
> > dukkha'? Perhaps I should also ask what you mean by
> > 'apply Dhamma' and how we release ourselves and
> > OTHERS?
> >
> > Ven Sir, I'm just trying to understand your comments
> > which are a little perplexing to me. I would
> > appreciate a brief elaboration.
> >
> > With Regards,
> >
> > Sarah
> > >


 
4427 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thank you

 
  Dear Ven Dhammapiyo,

Please have a good trip to the States and may I wish
you well with your health problems. 

Best regards,
Sarah





 
4428 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi Alex, Des, Sarah, and all -

In a message dated 3/28/01 1:27:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Alex T writes:


> --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
> wrote:
> > Dear Alex & Des,
> > 
> > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm
> > not quite sure what you mean by observing
> > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at
> > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'?
> 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
>    Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally:
> ----------
> Dear friends,
> 
>   From:
> http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm
> 
> in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says:
> 
> "When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye 
> consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness' 
> whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen 
> after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed 
> away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing 
> consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye 
> consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was 
> momentary."
> 
> The part that interests me the most is the last two statements.  What 
> does the author mean by "observing consciousness"?
> 
> Thank you,
> Alex Tran
> ---------
>    Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same 
> question in DSG.  
> 
>    Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he 
> said "consciousness".  The problem is that each citta has its own 
> object.  That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta.  
> Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the 
> previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same.  If we say 
> that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part 
> of it, which are the common conditions between the two.  
> 
>    The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is 
> that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in 
> this world: observe the common conditions.  Gradually, with more 
> panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta. 
> 
>    I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my 
> question clearly.
> 
> With Metta,
> Alex Tran
> 
> 
================================
       I suppose that what might be going on is a rapid succession of cittas, 
first a visual discernment (vi~n~nana), second a subsequent visual (or other 
than visual) discernment, and then a third, mental discernment which recalls 
the previous two discernments and recognizes that object of the second 
discernment is different from the object of the first. Does this make any 
sense?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4429 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 6:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 3/28/01 1:59:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear Howard,
> 
> I'm glad I caught this message just as I was signing off, tomorrow I 
> am off on another trip and won't be back til very late if at all.  But 
> I will get the exact reference for you when I get back.  About the 
> Abhidhamma's authenticity if you searched our group's achives you will 
> find some discussions on that also.  
> 
> 
> >        (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of 
> a matter 
> > solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru 
> being at 
> > the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be 
> accepted as 
> > true?
> 
> He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a 
> 'Sineru' if I remember correctly.  But if you looked at a galaxy from 
> the side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill 
> shaped?  Of course he never said to believe even what he taught 
> without proving it first, which is the crux for us, did what he teach 
> about seeing and visible object true at this moment?  Hearing and 
> sound?  Bodysense and 'hardness' or 'motion' at the tip of our 
> fingers?  He also said there are things experienced only through the 
> mind, for example the subtle rupa.  And things one should not ponder 
> because it could never bring wisdom in the Buddhist sense and 
> preoccupation with it without awareness of the present does not 
> condone to bhavana.  But I personally have never seen anyone able to 
> prove anything he taught was wrong, allowing for mistranslation and 
> such, of course.
> 
> 
> >        (3) Do you really think that folks developed telescopes 
> "because" the 
> > Buddha spoke of other worlds?
> 
> 
> Did I say that?  Although according to some sources people like 
> Einstein said, if there is a religion that goes with science it is 
> Buddhism.  I simply meant to say that he KNEW even without teliscopes 
> that there are other planetary systems all through the universe.
> 
> > 
> >        I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on 
> authority 
> > and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a 
> program for 
> > release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for 
> ourselves. The 
> > more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our 
> confidence 
> > increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to 
> liberation. 
> 
> 
> I agree entirely.  But the more you realize how deep the dhamma is, 
> how exact and true it is, one is more and more amazed at his wisdom 
> and the more confidence one has that the rest must be true too, unlike 
> any other sciences where a theory is continually being revised, 
> annotated and corrected and even annulled by more recent ones.  
> Nothing like that has happened to his teachings for over 2500+ years, 
> and doesn't look likely to happen, especially the parts he teaches us 
> about ourselves.
> 
> Amara
> 
==================================
       This is a really good reply, fair and balanced, to a post of mine that 
was a bit of a challenge to you. Excellent! I particularly think that your 
pointing out "He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a 
 'Sineru' if I remember correctly.  But if you looked at a galaxy from the 
side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill shaped? " 
is neat!! It may be a bit of a stretch - I don't know - but it is *very* 
clever and very interesting! Definitely food for thought! :-)

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4430 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:14am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Thanks a lot Robert.

metta,
des


>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:59:36 -0800 (PST)
>
>dear Teng,
>I sent Realities and Concepts today to both you and Des.
>It is somewhat terse so doesn't give all the details we would
>like but still clarifies a great deal. Pannatti can be a
>condition - there is no doubt  about this, but there are
>differences in the way it conditions (compared to paramattha
>dhamma). The Patthana has something about this too.
>I have discussed this at times with Acharn Sujin and find her
>explanations very helpful and directly related to how we
>experience dhammas now.
>And of course I look forward very much to any writing and
>translation you do on the topic.
>robert


 
4431 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Alex, Howard, Des, Mike and all the others who've
been participating in this long thread,

Alex, I was aware that somehow we were all missing
something in our attempts to give detailed responses
to you and Mike (with details of sense and mind door
processes which you are already familiar with) and 
think this was partly because we didn't have the
original quote you were referring to, which is part
and parcel of the question..yes/no?

Anyway, now the questions seem clearer to me, but I
think I need to look at the passage in this case
first. Now I know nothing about the writer or rest of
the chapter. My comments are just based on the extract
and your questions only. Because we've been in a few
circles here, I hope no one will take any offence if
I'm rather direct this time:

--- Alex T wrote:
> 
>   From:
> http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm
> 
> in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a
> paragraph that says:
> 
> "When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object'
> there arises 'eye 
> consciousness'. 

all agreed

Yogis are advised to observe the
> 'eye consciousness' 
> whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes.

This sounds like thinking with an idea of self that
can observe

> It will be seen 
> after observation that the same eye consciousness
> has already passed 
> away or disappeared when it was observed by the
> observing 
> consciousness. 

This is thinking, not sati (awareness).

It will be obvious to the observer
> that the eye 
> consciousness was no more to be found because its
> arising was 
> momentary."

It's only obvious at a conceptual level and then of
course there is no observer. Sati is aware and panna
understands.
> 
> The part that interests me the most is the last two
> statements.  What 
> does the author mean by "observing consciousness"?

The writer might wish it to mean panna, but it sounds
just like thinking to me.

> 
>    Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he
> 
> said "consciousness".  The problem is that each
> citta has its own 
> object.  That's why I don't know how we can have an
> observing citta.

You're right.
  
> Of course, the subsequent citta has some common
> conditions with the 
> previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the
> same.  If we say 
> that we can observe the previous one, then we only
> can observe part 
> of it, which are the common conditions between the
> two.  

yes, this is just thinking...no we to observe or do
anything.
> 
>    The only more or less confusing answer I can give
> to myself is 
> that since we are living in the world of concepts,
> do your best in 
> this world: observe the common conditions. 
> Gradually, with more 
> panna developed, we may advance to more subtle
> aspects of citta.

Alex, may I say that I think the quote is somewhat
confusing and there seems to be an idea of self doing
the observing. It's true that we live in the world of
concepts, but it's the task of panna to understand the
realities and to know that while thinking is real, the
concepts thought about are not. 

It's not a matter of thinking and thinking about the
arising and falling away of seeing (eye consciousness)
or thinking about the common conditions, but more a
matter of developing understanding (or rather
ofunderstanding developing) to know the characteristic
or nature or sabhava of seeing at this moment. If
there is no understanding of seeing, of sati or of
panna, how can there be deeper and higher levels of
understanding?

Ther has been a lot of discussion recently about
whether it's useful to study and consider the details.
The danger of not considering the details at all, is
that it is easy to imagine that the observer is
attaining levels of realization when really it may all
just be thinking.

Alex, it seems to me that your inital concerns about
what was said were well-founded. 

I sincerely apologise if unwittingly I have stepped on
any toes here. I haven't followed the link and my
response is based just on what I read here.

Very best wishes,

Sarah 



 
4432 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:52pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  My pleasure Des and thanks for the interest,
robert
--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> Thanks a lot Robert.
> 
> metta,
> des
> 
> 
> >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
> >> >
> >dear Teng,
> >I sent Realities and Concepts today to both you and Des.
> >It is somewhat terse so doesn't give all the details we would
> >like but still clarifies a great deal

 
4433 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:38pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  All, before I start, a simple glossary is now on the
files page to give a little quick relief to the Pali
challenged (many thanks, Kom):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm

<I hope this link comes out as I'm just testing it>

Dear Teng, Kom & Rob,

--- teng kee ong  wrote: > 

> There should be two english translation (or for
> other languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana
> pannatti(sabhava-with individual
> essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and
> asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the
> avijjamana pannatti (asabhava-without individual
> essence)as concept.But I still can't decide  which
> should the word be used for both kinds combine like
> tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of avijjamana
> and vijjamanapannatti).

Teng Kee,
I agree that one word concept hardly gives justice to
pannatti and certainly doesn't give any indication
without more detail of the complexities and varieties
of concepts that are used ...this is the same problem
we have with most translations of pali terms however
(eg citta, sanna) and it is only the development of
panna (understanding) that can ppreciate the true
meanings. Even pali speakers in the Buddha's time
could not understand the meaning without panna.

> I can't do anything if the other members in this
> list for still having the wrong view that pannatti
> are all without individual essence.See puggala
> pannatti text for khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti
> etc.
> From Teng Kee
> 

Well if we have wrong views, we look forward to having
them corrected! Now I read through Puggala pannatti
(Human Types) without finding anything of relevance.
Teng, your references are rather confusing, if I may
say so!!! (I'm still waiting for that one in the Soma
Satipatthana Sutta which I couldn't find!;-)).

Anway, while I was looking for another reference, I
did find Nanamoli's commentary and his own notes on
pannatti in Vis, ch V111, note 11 which are very
detailed and helpful. Many of the references are to
notes from the COMMENTARY to Puggala Pannatti, so now
I know where I went wrong anyway - it's like a jigsaw
puzzle!

All the different kinds of pannatti which Kom and Rob
referred to are mentioned here in detail and the kinds
you have referred to as well, i.e concepts of the
'existent and non-existent' and all the shades
between. In fact there is a lot more detail here and
it's really very interesting in itself. As we have
discussed, many kinds refer to paramattha dhammas and
tajja-pannatti even refers 'to the individual essence
of a given dhamma e.g. 'earth', 'fire', 'hardness',
'heat'.' Some refer to the 'formed'
(sankhata-pannatti) and asankhata-pannatti (concept of
the unformed) refers to nibbana. It makes the
'unformed dhamma known' and in this sense is referred
to as an 'existent concept'. 'All this shows that the
word pannatti carries the meanings of either
appellation or concept or both together, and that no
English word quite corresponds.'

However, a concept is 'a dhamma without individual
essence (asabhava -dhamma)' note 12.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that in pali
concepts perhaps can be referred to as sabhava or
asabhava pannatti or sankhata or asankhata pannatti.
However, it is not the concepts themselves that are
with/without essence or are conditioned/unconditioned,
but the 'objects' they are pointing at. This may be a
language issue, Teng, I'm not sure. When you talk
about 'uncondition and condition pannatti' or even
about pannatti with sabhava, maybe we misunderstand
you to be referring to the concept itself rather than
what it represents.

Does this clarify at all?

Teng, are you going to join us in Bkk? 

You certainly provide the MOST challenging posts on
the list!!

Regards,
Sarah




 
4434 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  Dear Erik and Howard,

You raise some good points. Erik, you may not know
that Robert had an interesting discussion on this
topic which is contained in a single post in the
'useful posts' under 'abhidhamma.....':
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm

The proof of the Teachings is in the testing and
understanding, but these doubts about the origins can
be a sticking point for some, I know.

Sarah

--- Erik wrote: > --- Howard wrote:
> > But there isn't strong 
> > evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha
> in the same sense 
> that the 
> > other two pitaka did.
> 
> I don't subscribe to the idea the historical
> Shakyamuni Buddha 
> uttered the words found in the Abhidhamma based on
> what I've read of 
> its history, though it has become quite clear to me
> that nearly 
> everything in the Abhidhamma has a direct support
> from the suttas. On 
> that note, I have no idea if the historical
> Shakyamuni actually spoke 
> the words in the Suttas. The only "proof" to me is
> in their ability 
> to help bring about liberation from suffering.
> 
> So to me it hardly matters if the historical
> Shakyamuni actually 
> taught Abhidhamma. What matters to me is how
> beneficial understanding 
> these things is to the goal. It has obviously served
> many people well 
> and will continue to do so. Certainly in terms of a
> system for 
> clearly explaining the Dhamma, Abhidhamma is hard to
> beat.



 
4435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
  Dear Herman,

I'm very impressed by your keen interest and
consideration of dhamma and particularly of
abhidhamma,

--- Herman Hofman  wrote: >
Howard,
> 
> Speaking of which, how would the concept of "should"
> or "must" (as in a
> moral imperative) be translated into the syntax of
> not-self?
> 
> I often wonder what is meant when it is written, for
> example : "you should
> study the dhamma" . Who or what is being addressed?

Herman, sometimes we may say to a child 'share your
sweets' or 'don't touch the cooker' when really we
mean 'generosity is kusala and I'd like to encourage
you to share in order to develop good qualities' or
'please realise that the cooker is hot and if you
touch it you'll burn yourself which will be a
condition for akusala vipaka'..yes?

So when we say 'you should study the dhamma' it will
depend on the speaker's understanding what is meant.
What I understand the Buddha to mean here would be
'hear, read, consider what I have said in order for
right understanding and the other factors of the
eightfold path to do their jobs. Furthermore, realise
there are 2 kinds of study- intellectual and direct
study of characteristics. I'm not talking about book
study here, but the kind of study that leads to the
eradication of defilements. Remember it's not self!'

If the Buddha says 'You must strive' or 'You should
make an effort' or 'You should be mindful', we need to
understand these comments (or translations) in the
light of the understanding gained from the abhidhamma
too. Listeners in the Buddha's time understood that
all relities are not self, that there is no self to
strive and that effort is a conditioned mental factor
arising under the right conditions. 

So the meaning depends on the understanding with which
the Teachings are read. 

Rob made the point that he recently re-read the whole
of the Visuddhimagga and how different it was from
when he read it more than 10yrs ago. What the Buddha
said hadn't changed.

This is rather 'wordy' Herman, but I thought it was a
good question. I forget how it relates to the
'cognizing nibbana' thread you referred to, but you're
welcome to remind me of course!

Keep up your useful contributions,
Sarah
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard 
> Date: Wednesday, 28 March 2001 3:40
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana
> 
> 
> >Hi, Herman -
> >
> >In a message dated 3/27/01 2:16:23 AM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> >Herman H writes:
> >
> >
> >> Kom,
> >>
> >> I know the question was not directed to me, but I
> couldn't resist the
> >> temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no tree and there is no forest without
> nama/rupa. There is rupa
> >> without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself
> or anything else for
> that
> >> matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling
> over all over the place
> all
> >> the time, but the forms this takes, and the
> qualities this has, are
> shaped
> >> by nama/rupa. What something would be without it
> being known is .........
> >> unknowable.
> >>
> >> Kind Regards
> >>
> >>
> >> Herman
> >>
> >================================
> >This is almost exactly my position as well. Your
> last sentence, "What
> >something would be without it being known is
> ......... unknowable.," is
> >quintessential phenomenalism!
> >
> >With metta,
> >Howard
> >
> >
> >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world:
> A star at dawn, a bubble
> >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer
> cloud, a flickering lamp, a
> >phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> Sutra)
> >


 
4436 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Human State

 
  Hi, Wyn,

I think the problem here is that it is just thinking
about a 'story'. 

If there are conditions to have a child now, it will
happen anyway. What we learn about from the Buddha's
Teachings is what life consists of at this moment. Is
there a living being near us in need? Is there
compassion when we try to relieve the suffering? Does
compassion last or just appear for a moment only, to
be replaced by ignorance and sadness? 

Compassion is a mental state that arises just for a
moment. What we consider to be an act of compassion
consists of many different realities, good and bad
with moments of seeing and hearing in between. I'm not
at all sure we can talk about compassion for a being
that doesn't exist. 

I'm not sure if this helps, Wyn! Please let me know
what you think about this thinking and why you raised
the question. Sorry for the delay.

Best regards,
Sarah

- <> wrote: >  Hi,
> 
> 
> The Buddha said that the human state is the best (os
> is it ONLY??) 
> state for achieving enlightenment (do you have the
> Sutta reference 
> handy?)
>  
> No sex, no babies, no human state. In this sense,
> isn't having 
> children an act of compassion to all living beings?



 
4437 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:12pm
Subject: Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, sukin, ..?

 
  Venerable Dhammapiyo has very kindly offered to distribute
copies of realities and concepts on his tour of the states. I am
almost out of stock and was wondering if anyone could send a
package (about 40?) . I forget the email address of the person
at the foundation who handles posting of books now. BTW i
received the tapes - thank you sarah.
Kom - if they have a big supply at the teemple in san francisco
maybe they could be sent from there.
Seamail is Ok as ven. D. will be there for several months.
I have his contact address in America so just write to me off
line and I will send it.
robert


 
4438 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:31pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana

 
> 
> Well if we have wrong views, we look forward to having
> them corrected! Now I read through Puggala pannatti
> (Human Types) without finding anything of relevance.
> Teng, your references are rather confusing, if I may
> say so!!! (I'm still waiting for that one in the Soma
> Satipatthana Sutta which I couldn't find!;-)).
> 
> Anway, while I was looking for another reference, I
> did find Nanamoli's commentary and his own notes on
> pannatti in Vis, ch V111, note 11 which are very
> detailed and helpful. Many of the references are to
> notes from the COMMENTARY to Puggala Pannatti, so now
> I know where I went wrong anyway - it's like a jigsaw
> puzzle!
> 
> All the different kinds of pannatti which Kom and Rob
> referred to are mentioned here in detail and the kinds
> you have referred to as well, i.e concepts of the
> 'existent and non-existent' and all the shades
> between. In fact there is a lot more detail here and
> it's really very interesting in itself. As we have
> discussed, many kinds refer to paramattha dhammas and
> tajja-pannatti even refers 'to the individual essence
> of a given dhamma e.g. 'earth', 'fire', 'hardness',
> 'heat'.' Some refer to the 'formed'
> (sankhata-pannatti) and asankhata-pannatti (concept of
> the unformed) refers to nibbana. It makes the
> 'unformed dhamma known' and in this sense is referred
> to as an 'existent concept'. 'All this shows that the
> word pannatti carries the meanings of either
> appellation or concept or both together, and that no
> English word quite corresponds.'
> 
> However, a concept is 'a dhamma without individual
> essence (asabhava -dhamma)' note 12.
> 
> I think the confusion lies in the fact that in pali
> concepts perhaps can be referred to as sabhava or
> asabhava pannatti or sankhata or asankhata pannatti.
> However, it is not the concepts themselves that are
> with/without essence or are conditioned/unconditioned,
> but the 'objects' they are pointing at. This may be a
> language issue, Teng, I'm not sure. When you talk
> about 'uncondition and condition pannatti' or even
> about pannatti with sabhava, maybe we misunderstand
> you to be referring to the concept itself rather than
> what it represents.
> 
> Does this clarify at all?
> 
> Teng, are you going to join us in Bkk? 
> 
> You certainly provide the MOST challenging posts on
> the list!!
> 
> Regards,
> Sarah
> Dear Sarah,
What edition of soma translation of  satipatthana sutta you are having?Maybe you are having an edtion simply without com. and sub com but only plain text.Try again read the complete text in accesstoinsight.org--nidana part.It is only in com and sub com but not in text at all.
I am not going to have dhamma talk with anyone because I find that I cannot help anyone and no one can help too.I am only pray that I can find a chance to read those  lost texts like anguttara old tika ,suttanipata tika,theragatha-therigatha tika,visuddhimagga ganthipada etc during my trip to Laos and chieng Mai.
Best Wishes
From Teng Kee 
> 
> 
> 
-- 

 
4439 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Alex, Howard, Des, Mike and all the others who've
> been participating in this long thread,
> 
> Alex, I was aware that somehow we were all missing
> something in our attempts to give detailed responses
> to you and Mike (with details of sense and mind door
> processes which you are already familiar with) and 
> think this was partly because we didn't have the
> original quote you were referring to, which is part
> and parcel of the question..yes/no?

   Dear Sarah,

   I see how important the quote is.  I'll be more considerate in the 
future.  Thank you for your answer.

With appreciation,
Alex

 
4440 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, sukin, ..?

 
  And just a note to add to Robert's kind message:

I would be glad if anyone who is willing to donate any other Dhamma books
would do so. Ask Robert for the contact address off list, please. Also, if
you know of organizations beside the one in Taiwan who distribute books,
please let me know!

I am carrying a lot back with me, but there are many people who have
requested books. Also, I would like to distribute books for youth centers
for troubled youths, and there is a great need for them in prisons. Please
help if you can!

Metta,

Bhante D.

P.S. If anyone is interested in helping with any of Buddhadharma
International Foundation's projects or would like us to help you with
something you would like to do, please let me know. Back up email addresses
are: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031171056164024114164134058066051209171188199 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031171056164024114187078230211009053176152006048067 I also use their
messengers and ICQ (8863950). When I get to the US and Canada, anyone can
contact me quickly that way or via the Foundation
(http://www.buddhadharma.org/)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" 
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 2:42 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, sukin, ..?


>
> Venerable Dhammapiyo has very kindly offered to distribute
> copies of realities and concepts on his tour of the states. I am
> almost out of stock and was wondering if anyone could send a
> package (about 40?) . I forget the email address of the person
> at the foundation who handles posting of books now. BTW i
> received the tapes - thank you sarah.
> Kom - if they have a big supply at the teemple in san francisco
> maybe they could be sent from there.
> Seamail is Ok as ven. D. will be there for several months.
> I have his contact address in America so just write to me off
> line and I will send it.
> robert
>
>
>

 
4441 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  "A truly great man never puts away the simplicity of a child. "
Chinese Proverb



with metta,
des


>From: Alex T
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:25:09 -0000
>
>--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
>wrote:
> > Dear Alex & Des,
> >
> > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm
> > not quite sure what you mean by observing
> > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at
> > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'?
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>    Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally:
>----------
>Dear friends,
>
>   From:
>http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm
>
>in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says:
>
>"When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye
>consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness'
>whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen
>after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed
>away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing
>consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye
>consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was
>momentary."
>
>The part that interests me the most is the last two statements.  What
>does the author mean by "observing consciousness"?
>
>Thank you,
>Alex Tran
>---------
>    Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same
>question in DSG.
>
>    Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he
>said "consciousness".  The problem is that each citta has its own
>object.  That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta.
>Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the
>previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same.  If we say
>that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part
>of it, which are the common conditions between the two.
>
>    The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is
>that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in
>this world: observe the common conditions.  Gradually, with more
>panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta.
>
>    I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my
>question clearly.
>
>With Metta,
>Alex Tran
>
>
>
>
>

 
4442 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 0:03am
Subject: Re: Dogma or experience?

 
  > I particularly think that your 
> pointing out "He not only said that but he also said that each 
universe had a 
>  'Sineru' if I remember correctly.  But if you looked at a galaxy 
from the 
> side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill 
shaped? " 
> is neat!! It may be a bit of a stretch - I don't know - but it is 
*very* 
> clever and very interesting! Definitely food for thought! :-)


Dear Howard, 

Bon appetit, then, the Tipitaka is full of treats like this!!!  I 
should still keep in mind that the main course is the study of the 
present realities as they truly are, the real 'food' for panna, 
though!  Happy studying,

Anumodana,

Amara

 
4443 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience?

 
  In Buddhism:
One studies >>>>> practices >>>>> understands.

To say that a virus does not exist just because one can't see with the naked 
eyes does not mean that one is correct.

What is said in the dharma can't be seen readily, but can be experienced or 
understood, only if one practices.
Short of practice, we can only say till we turn blue.

A moment of consciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] occurs in one trillionth 
of a second [1/ 10 to the power of 12].

That it why, practically speaking, we don't and can't live in the present. 
What we think of as present is already past.

In the same way, what we speak of as the truth now, can no longer be true 
later [ as the conditions change ].

Therefore the best way to "see" the truth is to experience it at that moment 
as it happens, but not to say it. [Buddha says: he who sees dharma, sees me. 
]

I have always said it as a joke that, once I stop saying, then I will know, 
I am enlightened.

May we all be enlightened.

metta,
des


>From: Herman
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience?
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:34:32 -0000
>
>Hi all,
>
>I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one
>after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has
>been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as
>experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the
>locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if
>any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas
>arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where
>one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to
>mind)
>
>
>Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer
>than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been
>experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without
>references to whoever experienced this)?
>
>It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can
>it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter ,
>whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the
>same time, given that there is only ever one citta?
>
>Any insights would be appreciated.
>
>Kind Regards
>
>
>Herman
>
>


 
4444 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:47am
Subject: Re: Books for USA - kom, amara, shin,

 
  *Please ignore any duplication of this message.*


> I would be glad if anyone who is willing to donate any other Dhamma 
books
> would do so. Ask Robert for the contact address off list, please. 
Also, if
> you know of organizations beside the one in Taiwan who distribute 
books,
> please let me know!
> 
> I am carrying a lot back with me, but there are many people who have
> requested books. Also, I would like to distribute books for youth 
centers
> for troubled youths, and there is a great need for them in prisons. 
Please
> help if you can!


Venerable sir,

Anumodana in your great kusala cetana to perform this greatest of 
dana, dhamma dana, I am sure many of us will join in, I will ask the 
Sat. EDG to help select some books tomorrow to send you.  
Unfortunately the English selection is not so large, and some books 
are too technical for the general audience, but there is at least one 
that is suitable for all audiences and available in large quantity, 
Nina's recently published 'Letters from Nina' which would be good for 
readers of any level of understanding.  You can find the same book in 
the <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> website, intermediate section.  Our 
sponsor at the website is putting together a package for you and will 
send it probably on Monday.  May I ask when you are leaving so that 
they may mail it in time?  Perhaps you could send me the address also, 
on or off list, thank you very much in advance.

Again, anumodana,

Amara

 
4446 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 3:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Des,

> "A truly great man never puts away the simplicity of
> a child. "
> Chinese Proverb

Interesting.  But do you see this as having any truth
to it?  In Dhamma terms, the 'truly great' are those
who have understood the teachings at the deepest level
and penetrated the true characteristic of reality,
tasks which the Buddha described as being exceedingly
difficult.

Jon


 
4447 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: Quiz

 
  Dear friends,

We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked about the 
khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama and rupa are classified 
into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma that we 
can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa.  These can be 
divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned realities that 
arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), sanna 
(memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief of which 
is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and vinnana 
(citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of clinging 
or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:

What khandha are not objects of clinging?  

Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone find the 
answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a prize to the correct 
answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?

Happy pondering, all!

Amara

 
4448 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:21pm
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:

> What khandha are not objects of clinging?  

I have no idea what the Tipitaka says on this, but I'd guess that 
since arahats have eradicated clinging that "their" khandas are not 
objects of clinging.

 
 
4449 From: selamat   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz

 
  Dear Amara,

Khandha-VIMUTTI  is not the object of clinging and we can experience in
samsara if we realize for the first moment as a Sotapana.

metta,
selamat rodjali

----- Original Message -----
From: Amara 
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:07 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz


> Dear friends,
>
> We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked about the
> khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama and rupa are classified
> into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma that we
> can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa.  These can be
> divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned realities that
> arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), sanna
> (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief of which
> is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and vinnana
> (citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of clinging
> or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:
>
> What khandha are not objects of clinging?
>
> Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone find the
> answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a prize to the correct
> answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?
>
> Happy pondering, all!
>
> Amara
>


 
4450 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:44pm
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> > What khandha are not objects of clinging?  
> 
> I have no idea what the Tipitaka says on this, but I'd guess that 
> since arahats have eradicated clinging that "their" khandas are not 
> objects of clinging.


Dear Erik,

Absolutely!  But we are talking about those who have not experienced 
nibbana, here...  Great reasoning, though!!!

Amara

 
4451 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Selamat,

You are certainly right, of course, but what about before we reach 
that point?   Which Khandha are not objects of clinging even now?  

Have fun,

Amara


> Dear Amara,
> 
> Khandha-VIMUTTI  is not the object of clinging and we can experience 
in
> samsara if we realize for the first moment as a Sotapana.
> 
> metta,
> selamat rodjali
> 

 
4452 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz

 
  Ok, I'll take a punt. Could it be khanda that we have no
experience of? Example: the khanda of some being, somewhere that
I don't know of (e.g. an insect somewhere in Africa).
--- Amara  wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked
> about the 
> khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama and rupa are
> classified 
> into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma
> that we 
> can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa.  These
> can be 
> divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned
> realities that 
> arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions),
> sanna 
> (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief
> of which 
> is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and
> vinnana 
> (citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of
> clinging 
> or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:
> 
> What khandha are not objects of clinging?  
> 
> Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone
> find the 
> answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a prize to the
> correct 
> answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?
> 
> Happy pondering, all!
> 
> Amara
> 



 
4453 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:21pm
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Rob,

Bravo!!!  The idea is quite accurate; any khandha, not really the rupa 
since all the seven rupa of the respective dvara can be objects of 
clinging, but generally all the cetasika and citta that had never 
arisen, such as the citta of the brahma bhumi or any citta we have 
never experienced cannot be objects of lobha.

It must be admitted we thought it was a trick question until KS gave 
the answer, the whole almost 20 of us today!  Great brainwork, Rob!!!

Amara


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Ok, I'll take a punt. Could it be khanda that we have no
> experience of? Example: the khanda of some being, somewhere that
> I don't know of (e.g. an insect somewhere in Africa).
> --- Amara  wrote:
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked
> > about the 
> > khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama and rupa are
> > classified 
> > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma
> > that we 
> > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa.  These
> > can be 
> > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned
> > realities that 
> > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions),
> > sanna 
> > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief
> > of which 
> > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and
> > vinnana 
> > (citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of
> > clinging 
> > or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:
> > 
> > What khandha are not objects of clinging?  
> > 
> > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone
> > find the 
> > answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a prize to the
> > correct 
> > answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?
> > 
> > Happy pondering, all!
> > 
> > Amara
> > 

 
4454 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Thanks Amara,
What about the khandas of people we see everyday: my children or
 students? Since I don't experience directly the cittas or
cetasikas that they experience I suppose those are not objects
of clinging too? 

robert
--- Amara  wrote:
> 
> Dear Rob,
> 
> Bravo!!!  The idea is quite accurate; any khandha, not really
> the rupa 
> since all the seven rupa of the respective dvara can be
> objects of 
> clinging, but generally all the cetasika and citta that had
> never 
> arisen, such as the citta of the brahma bhumi or any citta we
> have 
> never experienced cannot be objects of lobha.
> 
> It must be admitted we thought it was a trick question until
> KS gave 
> the answer, the whole almost 20 of us today!  Great brainwork,
> Rob!!!
> 
> Amara
> 



 
4455 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Rob,

Which 'Khandha' of the five do you see?

Amara


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Thanks Amara,
> What about the khandas of people we see everyday: my children or
>  students? Since I don't experience directly the cittas or
> cetasikas that they experience I suppose those are not objects
> of clinging too? 
> 
> robert
> --- Amara  wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Rob,
> > 
> > Bravo!!!  The idea is quite accurate; any khandha, not really
> > the rupa 
> > since all the seven rupa of the respective dvara can be
> > objects of 
> > clinging, but generally all the cetasika and citta that had
> > never 
> > arisen, such as the citta of the brahma bhumi or any citta we
> > have 
> > never experienced cannot be objects of lobha.
> > 
> > It must be admitted we thought it was a trick question until
> > KS gave 
> > the answer, the whole almost 20 of us today!  Great brainwork,
> > Rob!!!
> > 
> > Amara
> > 
> > 

 
4456 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 2:23am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz

 
  How about dosa?  Can dosa-related namas be objects of lobha?

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:07 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz
> 
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where 
> we talked about the 
> khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama 
> and rupa are classified 
> into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three 
> paramatthadhamma that we 
> can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and 
> rupa.  These can be 
> divided into 5 groups of khandha that are 
> conditioned realities that 
> arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana 
> (emotions), sanna 
> (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 
> cetasika, the chief of which 
> is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana 
> cetasika), and vinnana 
> (citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' 
> or object of clinging 
> or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:
> 
> What khandha are not objects of clinging?  
> 
> Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and 
> helping anyone find the 
> answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a 
> prize to the correct 
> answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?
> 
> Happy pondering, all!
> 
> Amara
> 


 
4457 From: Erik 
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 5:20am
Subject: Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here 
might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine:

"My question is about the translation of a phrase from the 
Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp 
of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says 
that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa 
viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making 
yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and 
not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more. 
But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is 
very important. Any help is most welcome."

Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended 
meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as 
far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha?

Thanks,
Erik

 
4458 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 9:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  Dear Erik,

The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents two
etymologically distinct words. One has the meaning of 'lamp' (Skt. diipa)
and the other one has the meaning of 'island' (Skt. dviipa). The commentary
(a.t.thakathaa) confirms 'island' while 'lamp' is simply a mistranslation in
the passage. The commentary reading is:

attadiipaa ti mahaasamuddagata.m diipa.m viya attaana.m diipa.m pati.t.tha.m
katvaa viharatha.

'attadiipa': after making yourself an island (as) support like an island
situated in the great ocean, abide. (a rough literal translation)

'Island' is a metaphor for 'support' (pati.t.thaa). I'm not familiar with
what type of compound 'attadiipaa' really is and it looks quite peculiar to
me. The word seems to be referring to the individuals addressed and is hard
to translate literally. The subcommentary (.tiikaa) also seems to be
interpreting 'atta' (?oneself) in a way not familiar to me. There is a shift
from atta to dhamma in the second phrasing (dhammadiipa . . .) as if atta
and dhamma were interchangeable (it's all very unclear to me).

Best wishes,
Jim

>Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here
>might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine:
>
>"My question is about the translation of a phrase from the
>Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp
>of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says
>that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa
>viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making
>yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and
>not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more.
>But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is
>very important. Any help is most welcome."
>
>Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended
>meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as
>far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha?
>
>Thanks,
>Erik

 
4459 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 9:47am
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  What do you think?  Can anything that one has experienced not be the 
object of lobha, except perhaps moha, since I don't believe anyone 
could ever want to be stupid or to not know...  Otherwise, haven't you 
ever met people who liked to pick quarrels, grumble all the time or 
talk only about malicious gossip, never of mudita?

Amara


--- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> How about dosa?  Can dosa-related namas be objects of lobha?
> 
> kom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Amara 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:07 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz
> > 
> > 
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where 
> > we talked about the 
> > khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama 
> > and rupa are classified 
> > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three 
> > paramatthadhamma that we 
> > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and 
> > rupa.  These can be 
> > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are 
> > conditioned realities that 
> > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana 
> > (emotions), sanna 
> > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 
> > cetasika, the chief of which 
> > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana 
> > cetasika), and vinnana 
> > (citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' 
> > or object of clinging 
> > or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:
> > 
> > What khandha are not objects of clinging?  
> > 
> > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and 
> > helping anyone find the 
> > answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a 
> > prize to the correct 
> > answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?
> > 
> > Happy pondering, all!
> > 
> > Amara
> > 

 
4460 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 9:55am
Subject: Re: Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  --- "Jim Anderson"  wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> 
> The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents 
two
> etymologically distinct words. One has the meaning of 'lamp' (Skt. 
diipa)
> and the other one has the meaning of 'island' (Skt. dviipa). The 
commentary
> (a.t.thakathaa) confirms 'island' while 'lamp' is simply a 
mistranslation in
> the passage. The commentary reading is:
> 
> attadiipaa ti mahaasamuddagata.m diipa.m viya attaana.m diipa.m 
pati.t.tha.m
> katvaa viharatha.
> 
> 'attadiipa': after making yourself an island (as) support like an 
island
> situated in the great ocean, abide. (a rough literal translation)
> 
> 'Island' is a metaphor for 'support' (pati.t.thaa). I'm not familiar 
with
> what type of compound 'attadiipaa' really is and it looks quite 
peculiar to
> me. The word seems to be referring to the individuals addressed and 
is hard
> to translate literally. The subcommentary (.tiikaa) also seems to be
> interpreting 'atta' (?oneself) in a way not familiar to me. There is 
a shift
> from atta to dhamma in the second phrasing (dhammadiipa . . .) as if 
atta
> and dhamma were interchangeable (it's all very unclear to me).
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim and Erik,

Jim, it's great to see you on the list!  I am about to have difficulty 
contributing from Monday on, myself, through the entire month, but 
will try to check in from time to time.

About the translation may I suggest that he was telling us to rely on 
ourselves and the dhamma he had established instead of some teacher 
after he is gone?  Just a suggestion,

Amara




> >Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here
> >might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine:
> >
> >"My question is about the translation of a phrase from the
> >Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp
> >of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula 
says
> >that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa
> >viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making
> >yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and
> >not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more.
> >But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is
> >very important. Any help is most welcome."
> >
> >Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended
> >meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean 
as
> >far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Erik

 
4461 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 10:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  dear Erik,
B. Bodhi translates this phrase where it is duplicated in the
Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) as
"Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge,
dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your
refuge, with no other refuge" As Amara noted this is a
encouragement not to take other teachers but to rely on the
Dhamma as laid out by the Buddha. 
It carries on: "And how Ananda does a bhikkhu dwell with himself
as an island..with no other refuge, dwell with the Dhamma as an
island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge. Here
Ananda a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the
body..feelings in feelings..mind in mind...phenomena in
phenomena" Thus a summary of satipatthana.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> 
> Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around
> here 
> might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine:
> 
> "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the 
> Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a
> lamp 
> of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola
> Rahula says 
> that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa 
> viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell
> making 
> yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge
> and 
> not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much
> more. 
> But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it
> is 
> very important. Any help is most welcome."
> 
> Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the
> intended 
> meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this
> mean as 
> far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha?
> 
> Thanks,
> Erik
> 



 
4462 From: Num 
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 5:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz

 
  Hi Kom,

I think some people like to be angry.  Some people learn that if they express 
their anger at time they can get what they want and can get it their ways 
easier.  Not everyone see the negative consequences of dosa, I think.

Hi K.Amara,

So I think Rob has already had a jackpot for a quiz show. What's a relief for 
me :)  Thanks Rob.   RGD Moha,  I think one can have lobha in moha as well, 
like lobha in a wrong view. 

Thanks for a brainy exercise.

Num

 
4463 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:13am
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  RGD Moha,  I think one can have lobha in moha 
as well, 
> like lobha in a wrong view. 



Dear K. Num

I think  we must distinguish between moha annd ditthi, the former 
being ignorance and the latter wrong view.  Do you really think people 
could enjoy being stupid?!?  That's a little  beyond me!

Amara

 
 
4464 From: Num 
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 6:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Hi K.Amara,

Thanks for your point and clarification.  I am looking at Kom's cetasika 
table. Dhiti cetasika always arises with lobha and moha cetasika. 4 
lobha-mula-citta-dhiti-vippayutta have only moha and lobha cetasika.  I don't 
know, can someone enjoy being stupid?  Good question, may be not.  I have to 
think about it more.

Another brainy exercise :) My pleasure to learn and study dhamma.

A plus tard,

Num

 
4465 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 1:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Amara,
It's ok. None.

metta,
selamat
----- Original Message -----
From: Amara 
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:49 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz


>
> Dear Selamat,
>
> You are certainly right, of course, but what about before we reach
> that point?   Which Khandha are not objects of clinging even now?
>
> Have fun,
>
> Amara
>
>
> > Dear Amara,
> >
> > Khandha-VIMUTTI  is not the object of clinging and we can experience
> in
> > samsara if we realize for the first moment as a Sotapana.
> >
> > metta,
> > selamat rodjali
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amara 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:07 PM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz
> >
> >
> > > Dear friends,
> > >
> > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked about
> the
> > > khandha, among other things.  As we know, nama and rupa are
> classified
> > > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma
> that we
> > > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa.  These can
> be
> > > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned realities
> that
> > > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions),
> sanna
> > > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief of
> which
> > > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and
> vinnana
> > > (citta).  All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of
> clinging
> > > or lobha.  After detailed explanation KS asked us:
> > >
> > > What khandha are not objects of clinging?
> > >
> > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone find
> the
> > > answer, OK?  We will have to find something for a prize to the
> correct
> > > answer!!!  K. Num, what do you think?
> > >
> > > Happy pondering, all!
> > >
> > > Amara
> > >

 
4466 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 1:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  Dear Erik,
We depend on our actions in the Path. If we practise the Path we will be
protected by our wholesome actions, not the Buddhas (as persons), not the
Dhamma (as teachings) and the Sangha (as persons).

metta,
selamat rodjali

----- Original Message -----
From: <Erik>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 4:20 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves?


>
> Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here
> might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine:
>
> "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the
> Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp
> of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says
> that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa
> viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making
> yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and
> not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more.
> But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is
> very important. Any help is most welcome."
>
> Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended
> meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as
> far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha?
>
> Thanks,
> Erik
>

 
4467 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 2:43pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear K. Amara and Num,

It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have lobha
towards dosa.  I always thought that "liking" to be angry is
more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa) rather than
lobha.

I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an
aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta.  It's unclear to me
if this is equivalent to what we have been discussing or
not.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 5:48 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz
>
>
>
> What do you think?  Can anything that one has
> experienced not be the
> object of lobha, except perhaps moha, since I
> don't believe anyone
> could ever want to be stupid or to not know...
> Otherwise, haven't you
> ever met people who liked to pick quarrels,
> grumble all the time or
> talk only about malicious gossip, never of mudita?
>
> Amara
>
>
> --- "Kom Tukovinit"
>  wrote:
> > How about dosa?  Can dosa-related namas be
> objects of lobha?
> >
> > kom
> >

 
4468 From: Erik 
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  --- "Jim Anderson"  wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> 
> The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents 
two
> etymologically distinct words. 
[...]

Just wanted to say thank you for that great response, and thanks to 
all the other relies as well.

 
4469 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma)

 
  Mike

I don't recall having seen a reply to this query
(apologies for the repetition is there has been)

> (1) reminding me of the 10 kusala kammapatha (by the
> way, does anyone know if this list occurs explicitly
> in the Suttanta or the Vinaya?);

I believe these factors can be found at -
A. X, 28, 176
M. 9
M. 114

Jon


 
4470 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Erik

Thanks for these further comments.

> > I am not familiar with this idea of a concept
> `taking
> > on the characteristic' of what it's pointing to. 
….
> Perhaps a quote from Khun Sujim would
> clarify, because it's 
> the closest I can find to what I've been trying to
> say:
> 
> "Even though [pannatti] are not paramattha-dhamma,
> they are arammana 
> of the cittuppada by their signs or the shadow of
> meanings (the 
> parallel of paramattha) designated in such a manner
> because it 
> parallels or compares by making known [with
> language] the sign or 
> features so that people can say, understand one
> another, call, make 
> known the meanings."

This passage seems to me to be explaining how it is
that concept can be object of citta (moment of
consciousness), and how concept is used to make things
known.  I don’t read this as suggesting that concept
‘takes on the characteristic’ of what it’s pointing
at.

> Jon, thanks for your other comments on the "tree
> falling in the 
> forest" question. I see it another way at the
> moment, namely, that 
> even if there is rupa in theory that rises and
> falls, since it isn't 
> happening now as direct experience, it hardly
> matters; the question's 
> academic. Or, more to the point, there's nothing
> "real" apart from 
> what's being cognized at any given instant, so the
> question doesn't 
> even apply.

Erik, I am always happy when a discussion is brought
back to what is real at the present moment.  But I
don’t think you and Howard can be let off so easily on
this one (you are both suggesting we drop the subject,
on the grounds that the issue is of no relevance to
the present moment!).

It matters, and is relevant, to this extent.  Rupas,
like all other realities (except nibbana), are
conditioned.  This means not only that the necessary
conditioning factors must be present in order for them
to arise, but also that as long as those conditioning
factors continue to be present the rupas must continue
to arise.  If rupas arise only at the moments they are
experienced by citta (consciousness), what does that
say about their conditioning factors?

In this important respect, rupas and other realities
are distinguished from concepts, which do indeed arise
only with the moment of consciousness of which the
concept is object.  Come to think of it, perhaps that
is why these 2 topics (concepts, rupas not being
experienced) tend to come up together – I was
struggling to make the connection until just now.

Jon



 
4471 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:21am
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  > Dear K. Amara and Num,
> 
> It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have lobha
> towards dosa.  I always thought that "liking" to be angry is
> more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa) rather than
> lobha.
> 
> I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an
> aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta.  It's unclear to me
> if this is equivalent to what we have been discussing or
> not.


Dear friends,

From your comments I will try to find out all the implications of the 
arguments:

1. Is upadana a form of lobha?  Since there are four upadana, are all 
of them different kinds of lobha?

2. Can all khandha be their object?

3. What are the khandha that can't ever be the objects of upadana even 
when they have arisen?

(4. What are the khandha that can't be the objects of lobha, in case 
they turn out to be different, which I doubt.)  

If dosa can't be the object of lobha, I must have missed out on the 
third answer that any citta or cetasika that has not arisen can't be 
the object of upadana, which should include dosa and moha in the 
answer, in which case would it imply that we do not take dosa or moha 
for the self?  Which would seem impossible for people who have not 
attained any level of enlightenment.  Or would it simply mean we do 
not want to have lobha for dosa and moha?  (As K. Kom suggested.)  It 
could very well be the case, and I will need to make an amendment 
soon.  I will check this and report, but as I explained earlier, I 
will be able to participate less often in the discussions this month, 
so it might take a while.

The study of paccaya is indeed relevant to this question, and I think 
that all 5 citta, comprising the 2 moha mula citta, the 2 dosa mula 
citta and the bodily dukha vedana cannot be an aramanupanissaya for 
lobha-mula citta, you are right.  This should accord completely with 
the object of upadana, as well as clarify it.  Looks like the 
amendment will be in order, thanks for the precision, K. Kom.  
(again!) 

Will verify and see if any more should be added to the list of non 
upadana objects,

Amara

 
4472 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:27am
Subject: Q&A10

 
  Dear friends,

We have just finished uploading the latest Q&A to that section in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , compiled from several answers to 
questions about sampajanna,

Enjoy,

Amara

 
4473 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 4/1/01 11:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Erik, I am always happy when a discussion is brought
> back to what is real at the present moment.  But I
> don’t think you and Howard can be let off so easily on
> this one (you are both suggesting we drop the subject,
> on the grounds that the issue is of no relevance to
> the present moment!).
> 
> 
==========================
       I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any subject. Of course, I do 
turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4474 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:49am
Subject: More on Subject-Dropping

 
  Hi, Jon -

I had written:      

In a message dated 4/1/01 11:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Erik, I am always happy when a discussion is brought
> back to what is real at the present moment.  But I
> don’t think you and Howard can be let off so easily on
> this one (you are both suggesting we drop the subject,
> on the grounds that the issue is of no relevance to
> the present moment!).
> 
> 
==========================
       I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any subject. Of course, I do 
turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! ;-))

With metta,
Howard
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
       The foregoing was with regard to the ongoing discussion of what 
exactly concepts are, what their ontological status is, whether or not they 
have characteristics (inherited from referents or otherwise), and whether to 
'exist" requires being observed or not. I'm writing here to back up my claim 
that I have not suggested dropping this or any related subjects, by writing 
out the core content of what I have written on this matter. It includes five 
posts written on March 26 and 27. Thus, my last post was written 5 days ago, 
and, I think that if one examines these posts, all that will be seen is a 
discussion of the issues giving my current, tentative positions on them, and 
nowhere will any sort of dismissal be found. 
       Actually, I think you may have misinterpreted something that I said 
about doing a bit less posting to the list. I will say a bit more about that 
at the end of this post. Meanwhile my combined comments on concepts follow. 
If there is no interest in rereading them please skip past them.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
       I think what may be going on here is that the term 'pannatti' / 
'concept' is being used here to stand for what I am used to thinking as the 
*referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a thought. There are concepts 
such as 'color' which have as reference what are here called paramattha 
dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' which seem to reference things, 
but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena that are direct elements of 
experience. Without the concept of 'color', we can still detect colors 
(though we may not so characterize them). Colors, as objects, do not exist 
independent of being observed, but they *can* exist independent of the 
*concept* of 'color'. On the other hand, while it *seems* that we experience 
a car, we actually only experience a spatial and temporal pattern of 
paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the thought / concept of 'car' to 
refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car per se is not to be found 
independent of the concept of car, it is empty and without characteristic. In 
a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I see this matter.
*******************************************************************
Even in the case of a concept such as 'color', the reference is 
without characteristic. While particular colors of particular objects are 
directly observed phenomena, the referent of the concept 'color' is intended 
to be something we might call "color-in-general", an alleged "thing" which 
has never been observed, and which certainly is without characteristic. Thus, 
*every* concept, from 'color' to 'car' is similar in this respect.
*******************************************************************
I may be mistaken, but, as I wrote in my posts on this topic, I 
believe that where you and I are using 'pannatti' / 'concept' to refer to a 
thought/idea which subsumes a number of direct experiences that share common 
or related features, others are using the term to refer to the intended 
*referent* of the concept, i.e. the *category* subsumed. As I see it, that 
category-referent is not only never observed, but is, in fact, not 
observable. It is *merely* conceptual in the sense of being the 
*conventional* referent of the concept/thought. The individual instances 
subsumed by the concept/thought, and their common features, are observable, 
at least if the concept is grounded, and not like the proverbial "child of a 
barren woman", and the thought/concept itself is a mental element of 
experience, but not the "category" which is the intended referent of the 
concept. (In some cases, even the the apparent individual instances subsumed 
by a grounded thought/concept are not directly observable, because they are 
*themselves* actually only thoughts/concepts subsuming a collection of 
co-occurring experiences such as 'the car presently parked in my driveway', 
though it *seems* that they are directly observed objects.) 
       I believe that it is the abstract "category" that others here are 
referring to when they speak of 'pannatti'. The pannatti, itself, *in the 
sense* of the thought or concept is, indeed, conditioned by the experiences 
it subsumes, their common features, and the relations among them, and it 
thereby has characteristics. This is my take on the matter.
***************************************************************
       I think I should clarify my position a bit. The position that "To 
exist is to be observed" is an idealist position that goes beyond mine. Mine 
is a kind of phenomenalist position that is closer to "To exist is to be 
observable" in the sense that if certain experiences are made to occur, then 
certain other experiences will also occur. So, when I say "The sky is blue", 
for example, what I mean is something along the following lines (still with 
heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should someone with functionally 
unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will see the color blue"; i.e., 
Should this occur, then that will occur; When this arises, then that arises 
(but all in experiential terms rather than existential terms).
       I haven't put this very well. i hope you get my drift.
*************************************************************
       This last question isn't dissimilar to the blue sky question. The main 
point, as I see it, is: What does it mean that "a tree falls in the forest"? 
The more standard point is: What does it mean to make sound? Is it 
(potential) experience, or is it something independent of experience? With 
regard to either point, as I see it, this is an experiential matter, either 
actual or conditional. [Relatedly, but somewhat as a side issue, there is an 
orderliness to the world of experience, and it is a shared world, an 
intersubjective world. What occurs within one "beings" 's experience is 
related to what occurs within another's. It all hangs together, which is what 
supports the impression of an objective, external "reality", independent of 
even the possibility of observation.] I think the main point of the question 
is actually: If an event occurs, but no sentient being observes it, does it 
really occur? As I see it, one has to ask what is meant at the very outset by 
"the event occurring". To me that has to mean that "it" was either observed 
by at least one sentient being or, more generally, if certain steps had been 
taken, then it *would* have been so observed; i.e., due to previous 
experiential events, a certain conditionality was established.
       This is about the best I can do. I'm not a philosopher. All that I can 
add is my general sense of the world being *like* a dream, in fact, like a 
brilliantly engineered lucid dream. 
       I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a bit off-topic 
for the list, and probably should only be continued privately. Whether 
matters are the way I see them or not is not critical to the Buddha's path to 
liberation. Some say his approach was that of phenomenalism, and others 
disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and the escape from 
suffering.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

       Just for the record, I consider this subject-matter to be fascinating! 
So much so, that I could spend hours on it. But such intellectual 
stimulation, just like sensual stimulation, can overcome one. One can become 
obsessed. I have, indeed, said that I feel the need for some renunciation in 
that regard. That is absolutely the case. But it is not a matter of dropping 
a subject due to alleged inapplicability. It is just a matter of bringing 
things more into balance (for myself). I need to increase my direct seeing of 
matters via meditation, moment-to-moment mindfulness, and vigilant guarding 
of the senses, and decrease my involvement with intellectual analysis. This 
is what I need at the moment. Erik, on the other hand, takes exactly the 
opposite position. He is quite pleased with the balance of things for him at 
the moment. As Marx said, "To each according to his need!" ;-))  P.S., I'm no 
Marxist! ;-))

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4475 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 6:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi, Howard,

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon -
> ==========================
>        I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any
> subject. Of course, I do 
> turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping!
> ;-))
> 
I don't think you need to worry about your mind just
yet! It seems to be functioning pretty well. March was
a really hectic month on dsg (especially the second
half) and it's hard to remember who said what
sometimes...

I've really appreciated all your contributions. We'll
probably also be easing off significantly this month
too because we'll be travelling for most of it (Sydney
& Bangkok), leaving in a couple of days and relying on
quick visits to internet cafes without our dhamma
texts...(Erik, sources may have to wait unless Rob &
Kom help me out!).

Best wishes,

Sarah

p.s. Jon turns 56 this month, close behind you, but I
turn only 48, a mere babe! 




4476 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 4/1/01 6:16:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah writes:


> Jon turns 56 this month, close behind you, but I
> turn only 48, a mere babe! 
> 
> 
============================
Hmph! Mere children, both of you! I think this list should "card" its 
members!! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4477 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 9:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi all,

I am still in the womb at 42!!!!!! :-)


Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard <Howard>
Date: Monday, 2 April 2001 9:21
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of


>Hi, Sarah -
>
>In a message dated 4/1/01 6:16:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Sarah writes:
>
>
>> Jon turns 56 this month, close behind you, but I
>> turn only 48, a mere babe!
>>
>>
>============================
>Hmph! Mere children, both of you! I think this list should "card" its
>members!! ;-))
>
>With metta,
>Howard
>
>
>/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
>in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
>phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)
>
>

 
4478 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 6:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 4/1/01 8:13:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Herman H writes:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am still in the womb at 42!!!!!! :-)
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
==============================
       Heh, heh, heh! ;-)) And the irony of all this age business is that 
every one of us has been non-existing since the very no-beginning of time!!

With ancient metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4479 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 2:12pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Kom, Amara, Num,

Yes, dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) and akusala
vipakacitta (body consciousness) cannot be
arammanapacaya (object condition) or arammanupanissaya
(strong dependence of object condition) for lobha
because they are not 'desirable' objects, but I am
pretty sure they can be pakatupanissaya paccaya
(strong dependence of natural condition) which is very
broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a
condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa
under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to
dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg
when one steals).

Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition
for lobha:

"What is intended here is but
Resultant pleasant feeling; hence
'Tis a condition in one way
for all this craving's occurrence.

In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support
condition only. Or alternatively:

A man in pain for pleasure longs,
And finding pleasure, longs for more;
The peace of equanimity
is counted pleasure too; therefore
The Greatest Sage announced the law
'With feeling as condition, craving',
Since all three feelings thus can be
conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11,
238)

With regard to the upadanas (clingings), 'there are
these four kinds of clinging here, namely,
sense-desire clinging, (false)view clinging, rite and
ritual clinging, and self doctrine
clinging'.....'Clinging (upadana) is firm grasping;
for here the prefix upa has the sense of firmness...'
(241)

It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but
isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how
little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons
of ignorance and wrong view?

Pausing for reflection,
Sarah

p.s Howard, nonetheless, I promise to pay you due
respect in future ;-))
===================================================
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear K.
Amara and Num,
> 
> It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have
> lobha
> towards dosa.  I always thought that "liking" to be
> angry is
> more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa)
> rather than
> lobha.
> 
> I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an
> aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta.  It's unclear
> to me
> if this is equivalent to what we have been
> discussing or
> not.
> 
> kom



 
4480 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 2:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Des,

After Teng Kee's, your posts are the greatest
challenge to me! You've obviously studied the
abhidhamma, but because we use some different
terminology, I have some difficulty in understanding
your meaning sometimes. However I really appreciate
your effort to explain. Apologies if I'm slow to catch
your meaning.

--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> When a moment of consciousness [17 cittas] arises
> out of interactions of 
> [nama + rupa] or [citta + cetasika + rupa], (as a
> result of impingement of a 
> stimulus on any of the five sense organs), the mind
> sense is stimulated or 
> impinged as the fifth order of citta [1st= past
> bhavanga, 2nd= vibrating 
> bhavanga, 3rd= arresting bhavanga, 4th sense door
> citta]in the normal 
> sequence of 17 cittas.

O.k., sticking to the normal sequence for now (which
is  what we're really interested in after all), this
'4th sense door citta' is the dvipancavinnana citta
(pairs of sense cognition which are kusala or akusala
vipaka), i.e. seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and
touching.
> 
> Once the mind sense is stimulated, the mind then
> becomes the subject as the 
> observing consciousness,... 

O.K. after the seeing-consciousness, the object (in
this case visible object) is experienced by the other
cittas, including the javana cittas in the sense door
process, before being experienced by a similar series
through the mind-door. So it seems that it is the
latter series, including the mind-door javana cittas
which you are referring to as 'observing
consciousness' 

>... for an extremely short period of time, if one's 
>mind is concentrated or one has the vipassana nana.

Well, I agree that all the cittas last a very short
time, not just under these circumstances. This makes
me wonder if by observing consciousness, you (and the
writer of the quote given before) are not referring to
panna which at the moments of the first vipassana
nana, for example, clearly understands namas and rupas
distinctly. Of course concentration (ekaggata
cetasika) arises with all cittas, but you are probably
referring only to  right concentration arising with
right understanding.

Perhaps you would clarify if this is correct and I
apologise in advance if I am still misunderstanding
you!

Thanks and best wishes,

Sarah



 
4481 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi Num,

i'm still trying to catch up with you, but you 'run' a
little too fast for me..hence the delay!

--- Num wrote: > Hi K.Amara,
> 
> Well, after a long discussion with Kom, I still
> cannot come to the clear 
> definition and character of sanna, (as well as
> manasikara, vitakka and 
> vicara).
> 
> So far, I understand that sanna marks or registers
> arammana as well as 
> performs a function of recallection in memory
> retrival process.  I mentioned 
> that memory basically has three characters,
> registration, retention and 
> recall.   You also said the power of sanna varies
> from citta to citta and 
> also by other paccaya.

I'm just wondering if one problem isn't that you're
trying to 'equate' sanna and other cetasikas with your
conventional understanding of memory, thinking etc as
we study them in psychology and psychiatry or in other
'worldly' ways. 

I just mention this as I have always found it to be a
real stumbling block if I try to apply my
'conventional' knowledge from psychological and
psycholinguistic studies, for example, to abhidhamma.
I just treat the first a (usually) useful set of
concepts to work with and the latter as an
extraordinary analysis of realities to be known at
this moment.

Just an idea, let me know what you think.

keep running!
Sarah

  



 
4482 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:32pm
Subject: still stuck with sanna

 
  Dear Howard & Num,

Just a little more and i'm not trying to suggest this
is an easy object for awareness!

Howard, you said (and i don't THINK anyone replied
further):

 ===================================
>        I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na,
> but I had thought there 
> was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a
> role in the formation of 
> percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular
> features of current experience, 
> driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking"
> them as a kind of mental 
> package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual
> unit. I suspect that my 
> understanding here is only partially correct, and I
> would appreciate 
> clarification.

-----------------------------------------------------

I think this is pretty good and close to my
undestanding of sanna. 

Perhaps what I find most helpful is to remember that
sanna arises with every single citta, marking each
object in turn. So it's not the same as any of our
conventional terms of perception, memory or
recognition exactly. I also find it helpful to remembe
that the proximate cause is the object. This object
can be either a paramattha dhamma (reality) or a
pannatti (concept), depending on what the citta it
accompanies is experiencing. Thirdly, it's useful to
remember that it is affected and conditioned by the
citta and other cetasikas (mental factors) which it is
accompanying and so as I've mentioned before, it can
be wholesome or unwholesome, right or wrong, stong or
subtle.

Just a few more reflections...and catching up!
Sarah

 



 
4483 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience?

 
  Hi Herman,

you have a lot of excellent questions below. May I
highly recommend 'Abhidhamma in Daily life' by Nina
Van Gorkom. this book will answer most your questions
much better than I could do and you can find it on
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links
go to dhammastudy.com

Just in very brief as i have a group of teenagers
arriving any moment here:

1. a citta is a kind of nama

2. Siamese twins, however attached or non-atached,
have their own sets of cittas independent of the
others (but of course lots of cross-conditioning)

3. all the details were understood and taught by the
Buddha. We can test out at this moment whether there
is one citta after another, say seeing then thinking,
or lobha then dosa, and the more confidence that grows
with understanding (even at a beginning level), the
more we will be inclined to accept other aspects that
are not directly realised. (That's what I find
anyway!)

Have a look at ADL and ask anything that is not
cleared up easily or which you still have doubts
about. Sorry for a bit of a 'cop-out' here..

Really appreciating your keen interest....

Take care, kid! In a couple of days we'll be in
dingoblueland too!

Sarah

p.s that's how my older students refer to younger
ones! 

--- Herman wrote: > Hi all,
> 
> I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise
> in sequence, one 
> after the other. I wonder whether this is being said
> because it has 
> been experienced, or whether it has been read and
> recycled as 
> experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in
> sequence, what is the 
> locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the
> locus of Nama, if 
> any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa?
> How many cittas 
> arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent
> case in UK where 
> one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the
> other comes to 
> mind)
> 
> 
> Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last
> 17 times longer 
> than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it
> because it has been 
> experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate
> reality (without 
> references to whoever experienced this)?
> 
> It seems to me that either there is counting or
> experiencing. How can 
> it be a quality of a citta that it is x times
> longer, shorter , 
> whatever , than another citta which cannot be being
> referenced at the 
> same time, given that there is only ever one citta?
> 
> Any insights would be appreciated.



 
4484 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 5:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Howard

Oops!

>        I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any
> subject. Of course, I do 
> turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping!
> ;-))
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

My apologies.  I'm sure it is my mind that is
slipping.  I must make sure I check my references more
carefully in future.

Best wishes for your 61st.  What date?

Jon


 
4485 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 5:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] More on Subject-Dropping

 
  Howard

Yes, an interesting subject.  Thanks for consolidating
your posts.  I would like to read through them and get
back to you later to continue the discussion.

BTW, here is the passage i had in mind when i made my
comment on subject-dropping.  But on a re-reading i
agree my post put the words into your mouth. 
Apologies again.

Jon


I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a
bit off-topic 
for the list, and probably should only be continued
privately. Whether 
matters are the way I see them or not is not critical
to the Buddha's path to 
liberation. Some say his approach was that of
phenomenalism, and others 
disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and
the escape from 
suffering


 
4486 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 6:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] still stuck with sanna

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Thank you for the information in the following post!

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 4/2/01 3:33:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah writes:


> Dear Howard & Num,
> 
> Just a little more and i'm not trying to suggest this
> is an easy object for awareness!
> 
> Howard, you said (and i don't THINK anyone replied
> further):
> 
> ===================================
> >        I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na,
> > but I had thought there 
> > was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a
> > role in the formation of 
> > percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular
> > features of current experience, 
> > driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking"
> > them as a kind of mental 
> > package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual
> > unit. I suspect that my 
> > understanding here is only partially correct, and I
> > would appreciate 
> > clarification.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> I think this is pretty good and close to my
> undestanding of sanna. 
> 
> Perhaps what I find most helpful is to remember that
> sanna arises with every single citta, marking each
> object in turn. So it's not the same as any of our
> conventional terms of perception, memory or
> recognition exactly. I also find it helpful to remembe
> that the proximate cause is the object. This object
> can be either a paramattha dhamma (reality) or a
> pannatti (concept), depending on what the citta it
> accompanies is experiencing. Thirdly, it's useful to
> remember that it is affected and conditioned by the
> citta and other cetasikas (mental factors) which it is
> accompanying and so as I've mentioned before, it can
> be wholesome or unwholesome, right or wrong, stong or
> subtle.
> 
> Just a few more reflections...and catching up!
> Sarah
> 
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4487 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves?

 
  taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? [what does it mean?]
>
Taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, means:
- to have Buddha as the goal or destination,
- to use Dharma as the road map for direction,
- to associate with Sangha, people of same goal and aspiration.
Furthermore, just like seeking refuge in the United States, seeking refuge 
in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, offers you protection, a safe haven, and a 
sanctuary against harm and hardship.
Repeating in one's mind:
"Buudham sarranam gichsami,
Dharman sarranam gichsami,
Sanghan sarranam gichsami",
offers one the best protection from harm.

. He says that Attadipa
>viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell
>making
>yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge
>and
>not anyone else as your refuge."

The above, in my opinium means:
Search the answer for the truth [dharma] within your own fathom long body. 
The Buddha, Dharma, and the Sangha can be found within one's fathom long 
body.
He who sees and understands his body >>>>> sees Dharma;
He who sees Dharma >>>>> sees Buddha

He who understand his body [him/her self], understands Dharma;
He who understands Dharma, understands Buddhia [buddhism]

Here
>Ananda a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the
>body..feelings in feelings..mind in mind...phenomena in
>phenomena" Thus a summary of satipatthana.

To dwell contemplating body in the body, feelings in the feelings, mind in 
mind, phenomena in phenomena means:

to use your observing mind to see body in the [mundane] body;
to see feelings in the [mundane] feelings;
to see mind in the [mundane] mind;
to see phenomena in the [mundane] phenomena.

Hope the above explanations are of help.
In medicine, the above explanation is called the applied anatomy or 
practical anatomy [anatomy that is used clinically, like in surgery, for use 
to treat patients] vs. pure anatomy [anatomy that one learns from the 
cadaver]
The latter is exact [amen]
The former is practical [buddha]

Thanks,
metta,
des



>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves?
>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:32:20 -0800 (PST)
>
>dear Erik,
>B. Bodhi translates this phrase where it is duplicated in the
>Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) as
>"Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge,
>dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your
>refuge, with no other refuge" As Amara noted this is a
>encouragement not to take other teachers but to rely on the
>Dhamma as laid out by the Buddha.
>It carries on: "And how Ananda does a bhikkhu dwell with himself
>as an island..with no other refuge, dwell with the Dhamma as an
>island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge. Here
>Ananda a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the
>body..feelings in feelings..mind in mind...phenomena in
>phenomena" Thus a summary of satipatthana.
>robert
>--- Erik wrote:
> >
> > Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around
> > here
> > might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine:
> >
> > "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the
> > Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a
> > lamp
> > of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola
> > Rahula says
> > that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa
> > viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell
> > making
> > yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge
> > and
> > not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much
> > more.
> > But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it
> > is
> > very important. Any help is most welcome."
> >
> > Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the
> > intended
> > meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this
> > mean as
> > far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Erik
> >
> >

 
4488 From: Num 
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 7:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi Sarah,

<<i'm still trying to catch up with you, but you 'run' a
little too fast for me..hence the delay!>>

Better to be late, than never.  I really appreciate your input, Sarah:)

<<I'm just wondering if one problem isn't that you're
trying to 'equate' sanna and other cetasikas with your
conventional understanding of memory, thinking etc as
we study them in psychology and psychiatry or in other
'worldly' ways. >>

Hmm, well.  This is not my goal but I think the reason I did that is b/c I am 
used to the term.   My real intention is to understand the reality but at the 
beginning I really want to be clear of the term or definition of what we are 
referring to or talking about.  I still need to use concept and term in 
studying, communicating as well as a condition for right understanding.  So I 
think concept is very critical for conditioning right understanding. But I 
also agree with you that it's not real.  

To me psychiatry, medicine and science share some of their parts with dhamma 
study in the way that they try to deal and understand reality, by different 
approaches.  Definitely the goal is different but they both give benefit to 
mankind in different level. From my opinion at this point, I told my self 
it's better to be good at both world. Advance in science gives a lot of new 
insight or makes us see thing in totally different way. Yeap, I have to tell 
and ask myself what is real and what is concept.

Well, come back to the point.  I don't know even in Thai, the term in 
conventional use can be totally different form Tipitaka definition, like the 
term "vitaka" or "vasana" or even "sanna" itself.   So I think it's better to 
be precise and clear in what we refer to.

I am still struggle at the level term and definition, but my main aim is to 
understand the reality here and now. I wish I can get over it someday.  So be 
patient with me, OK. 

Always appreciate your concern and responses.

Num







 
4489 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 4/2/01 5:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Howard
> 
> Oops!
> 
> >        I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any
> > subject. Of course, I do 
> > turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping!
> > ;-))
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> My apologies.  I'm sure it is my mind that is
> slipping.  I must make sure I check my references more
> carefully in future.
> 
---------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       No big deal .. at all! Actually, as I mentioned in a follow-up post on 
this, I had said something to the effect of wanting to ease up a bit on the 
extent of my posting, and you might easily have misinterpreted what I meant 
by that.
---------------------------------------------------------

> Best wishes for your 61st.  What date?
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       The 25th. BTW, throughout my life my personal definition of (the 
beginning of) "old" was 60. So what's one more year? (OLD + 1 = OLD is the 
relevant arithmetic!!) 
;-)) 
--------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Jon
> 
============================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4490 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 10:35am
Subject: Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  hello dear Taurus, 
of course --- if I follow the math implicit here --- old does 
not mean infinitely old (I think, last time I counted, so to 
speak). :>) 
April 25 is one day away from the birthday of a dear friend, 
and now it is the day of an old friend (double entendre?), 
happy upcoming birthday, 
jinavamsa

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a message dated 4/2/01 5:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jon writes:
> 
> 
> > Howard
> > 
> > Oops!
> > 
> > >        I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any
> > > subject. Of course, I do 
> > > turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping!
> > > ;-))
> > > 
> > > With metta,
> > > Howard
> > 
> > My apologies.  I'm sure it is my mind that is
> > slipping.  I must make sure I check my references more
> > carefully in future.
> > 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        No big deal .. at all! Actually, as I mentioned in a 
follow-up post on 
> this, I had said something to the effect of wanting to ease up a bit 
on the 
> extent of my posting, and you might easily have misinterpreted what 
I meant 
> by that.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > Best wishes for your 61st.  What date?
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        The 25th. BTW, throughout my life my personal definition of 
(the 
> beginning of) "old" was 60. So what's one more year? (OLD + 1 = OLD 
is the 
> relevant arithmetic!!) 
> ;-)) 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> ============================
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          

 
4491 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] More on Subject-Dropping

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 4/2/01 5:53:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Howard
> 
> Yes, an interesting subject.  Thanks for consolidating
> your posts.  I would like to read through them and get
> back to you later to continue the discussion.
> 
> BTW, here is the passage i had in mind when i made my
> comment on subject-dropping.  But on a re-reading i
> agree my post put the words into your mouth. 
> Apologies again.
> 
> Jon
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Ahhh ... yes I see. What I was really referring to in the following 
was the discussion of the phenomenalist take on "external objects", and my 
thought was that this might be slightly orthogonal to the mainstream issues 
of Dhamma [though my personal prejudice is that the Buddha was both a 
pragmatist and a phenomenalist], and that continuing too long along these 
lines on-list might violate expectations for staying "on-topic".
------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a
> bit off-topic 
> for the list, and probably should only be continued
> privately. Whether 
> matters are the way I see them or not is not critical
> to the Buddha's path to 
> liberation. Some say his approach was that of
> phenomenalism, and others 
> disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and
> the escape from 
> suffering
> 
> 
====================================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4492 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of

 
  Hi, Jina -

In a message dated 4/2/01 10:37:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jinavamsa writes:


> hello dear Taurus, 
> of course --- if I follow the math implicit here --- old does 
> not mean infinitely old (I think, last time I counted, so to 
> speak). :>) 
> April 25 is one day away from the birthday of a dear friend, 
> and now it is the day of an old friend (double entendre?), 
> happy upcoming birthday, 
> jinavamsa
> 
==============================
Thanks for the kind wishes, Jina!! :-)

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4493 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Kom, Amara, Num,
> 
> Yes, dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) and akusala
> vipakacitta (body consciousness) cannot be
> arammanapacaya (object condition) or arammanupanissaya
> (strong dependence of object condition) for lobha
> because they are not 'desirable' objects, but I am
> pretty sure they can be pakatupanissaya paccaya
> (strong dependence of natural condition) which is very
> broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a
> condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa
> under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to
> dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg
> when one steals).
> 
> Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition
> for lobha:
> 
> "What is intended here is but
> Resultant pleasant feeling; hence
> 'Tis a condition in one way
> for all this craving's occurrence.
> 
> In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support
> condition only. Or alternatively:
> 
> A man in pain for pleasure longs,
> And finding pleasure, longs for more;
> The peace of equanimity
> is counted pleasure too; therefore
> The Greatest Sage announced the law
> 'With feeling as condition, craving',
> Since all three feelings thus can be
> conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11,
> 238)
> 
> With regard to the upadanas (clingings), 'there are
> these four kinds of clinging here, namely,
> sense-desire clinging, (false)view clinging, rite and
> ritual clinging, and self doctrine
> clinging'.....'Clinging (upadana) is firm grasping;
> for here the prefix upa has the sense of firmness...'
> (241)
> 
> It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but
> isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how
> little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons
> of ignorance and wrong view?
> 
> Pausing for reflection,
> Sarah
> 
> p.s Howard, nonetheless, I promise to pay you due
> respect in future ;-))
> ===================================================
> --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear K.
> Amara and Num,
> > 
> > It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have
> > lobha
> > towards dosa.  I always thought that "liking" to be
> > angry is
> > more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa)
> > rather than
> > lobha.
> > 
> > I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an
> > aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta.  It's unclear
> > to me
> > if this is equivalent to what we have been
> > discussing or
> > not.
> > 
> > kom


Dear Sarah,

Thanks for the details, I guess an amendment is not in order then, K. 
Kom?

BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans!  And thank you all, 
here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like a kid 
again!  (52 here!)  Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in 
samsara!!!

Amara

 
 
4494 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 9:59pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear K. Amara,

I haven't read Sarah's explanation thoroughly yet, but it
sounds very plausible to me on the first pass.  I think I
will be quite happy with her explanation...

Anumoddhana,

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 5:54 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz
>
>
> --- Sarah Procter
> Abbott 
> wrote:
> > Dear Kom, Amara, Num,
> >
> > Yes, dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) and akusala
> > vipakacitta (body consciousness) cannot be
> > arammanapacaya (object condition) or arammanupanissaya
> > (strong dependence of object condition) for lobha
> > because they are not 'desirable' objects, but I am
> > pretty sure they can be pakatupanissaya paccaya
> > (strong dependence of natural condition) which is very
> > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a
> > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa
> > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to
> > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg
> > when one steals).
> >
> > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition
> > for lobha:
> >
> > "What is intended here is but
> > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence
> > 'Tis a condition in one way
> > for all this craving's occurrence.
> >
> > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support
> > condition only. Or alternatively:
> >
> > A man in pain for pleasure longs,
> > And finding pleasure, longs for more;
> > The peace of equanimity
> > is counted pleasure too; therefore
> > The Greatest Sage announced the law
> > 'With feeling as condition, craving',
> > Since all three feelings thus can be
> > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11,
> > 238)
> >
> > With regard to the upadanas (clingings), 'there are
> > these four kinds of clinging here, namely,
> > sense-desire clinging, (false)view clinging, rite and
> > ritual clinging, and self doctrine
> > clinging'.....'Clinging (upadana) is firm grasping;
> > for here the prefix upa has the sense of firmness...'
> > (241)
> >
> > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but
> > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how
> > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons
> > of ignorance and wrong view?
> >
> > Pausing for reflection,
> > Sarah
> >
> > p.s Howard, nonetheless, I promise to pay you due
> > respect in future ;-))

 
4495 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 4/3/01 8:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans!  And thank you all, 
> here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like a kid 
> again!  (52 here!)  Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in 
> samsara!!!
> 
============================
Thank you on behalf of all the bullheaded folks on the list! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4496 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 0:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group.
Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. 
Jina - you didn't say your age?
Me - 43
And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice between
say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing wisdom, of
course.
robert
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Amara -
> 
> In a message dated 4/3/01 8:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Amara writes:> 
> 
> > BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans!  And thank
> you all, 
> > here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like
> a kid 
> > again!  (52 here!)  Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in
> 
> > samsara!!!
> > 
> ============================
> Thank you on behalf of all the bullheaded folks on the list!
> ;-))
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                



 
4497 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 1:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Age and Wisdom

 
  Dear Robert,

Khun Jack read it from somewhere to me (tipitika?) once that >= 50 is
the age of wisdom.  Guess you still have a few more years to go, eh?

On this topics, wouldn't this wisdom be based on accumulation rather
than age?  For example, Gotama Buddha became englightened when he is in
his 30's, because of his past kamma resulting in his spending 6 years
in following extreme asceticism.  Some buddhas may spend
hundreds/thousands of years (because of their life expetencies?) before
they reach enlightenment.

I don't know about the wisdom reaching its maturity at 50's, but the
Buddha flatly refuted that old age brings on the arising of less panna
and sati.

kom

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group.
> Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. 
> Jina - you didn't say your age?
> Me - 43
> And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice between
> say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing wisdom, of
> course.
> robert




 
4498 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 1:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Age and Wisdom

 
  Totally agree Kom about wisdom and age (I hope you are right).
But I think the buddha spent 6 years doing ascetic practice
because of bad kamma he had done in past life (I forget what).
He was unusual in this regard.
I think I read in the commentaries that most(but not all of
course) Buddhas to be in their last life become Buddha within a
few days of leaving home.

On the other hand he was one where panna (wisdom)was predominant
and thus he went the short way compared to other bodhisattas
(some go with effort or other factors predominant). All of them
have all factors, of course, and even the short way is 4
unimaginably long periods of time plus a hundred thousand aeons.
(not counting all the time it took to get to the stage where
they can receive a prediction from another Buddha).
Makes the seven years until I reach fifty seem pretty brief.
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Khun Jack read it from somewhere to me (tipitika?) once that
> >= 50 is
> the age of wisdom.  Guess you still have a few more years to
> go, eh?
> 
> On this topics, wouldn't this wisdom be based on accumulation
> rather
> than age?  For example, Gotama Buddha became englightened when
> he is in
> his 30's, because of his past kamma resulting in his spending
> 6 years
> in following extreme asceticism.  Some buddhas may spend
> hundreds/thousands of years (because of their life
> expetencies?) before
> they reach enlightenment.
> 
> I don't know about the wisdom reaching its maturity at 50's,
> but the
> Buddha flatly refuted that old age brings on the arising of
> less panna
> and sati.
> 
> kom
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> wrote:
> > Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group.
> > Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. 
> > Jina - you didn't say your age?
> > Me - 43
> > And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice
> between
> > say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing
> wisdom, of
> > course.
> > robert
> 



 
4499 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 8:16am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Kom & Amara,

I just saw yesterday that Rob has put the
Visuddhimagga on abhidhamma.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links

(sorry- I haven't saved direct links yet)

so you may find it interesting to read the whole
chapter on lobha and upadana.

All- 
he is also in the process of putting Concepts &
Realities (much discussed here) on the same site.

So there's a lot of good Easter reading there and on
dhammastudy.com & Zolag.

Kom,

you never know, you may find a few lurking nits...!
Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Sarah

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear K.
Amara,
> 
> I haven't read Sarah's explanation thoroughly yet,
> but it
> sounds very plausible to me on the first pass.  I
> think I
> will be quite happy with her explanation...
> 
> Anumoddhana,
> 
> kom



 
4500 From: jinavamsa 
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:42am
Subject: Re: Quiz

 
  hi Robert, and all, 
you write: 
> Jina - you didn't say your age?

I suppose that that's a question. I do not remember if I did. 
And to the next question, 59. Further, there's a photo (from 
Sept. a year and a half ago) at: 
http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/introwithphoto-127.html
and others at: 
http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/Intro_with_cat.html
:>) 
with metta and a meow, 
jinavamsa


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group.
> Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. 
> Jina - you didn't say your age?
> Me - 43
> And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice between
> say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing wisdom, of
> course.
> robert
> --- Howard wrote:
> > Hi, Amara -
> > 
> > In a message dated 4/3/01 8:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > Amara writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans!  And thank
> > you all, 
> > > here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like
> > a kid 
> > > again!  (52 here!)  Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in
> > 
> > > samsara!!!
> > > 
> > ============================
> > Thank you on behalf of all the bullheaded folks on the list!
> > ;-))
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 
> > 
> > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> > dawn, a bubble 
> > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> > flickering lamp, a 
> > phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
> >                
> >             

 
4501 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:43am
Subject: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear sarah,
So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting
others on gradually 
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm
robert

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Kom & Amara,
> 
> I just saw yesterday that Rob has put the
> Visuddhimagga on abhidhamma.com
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links
> 
> (sorry- I haven't saved direct links yet)
> 
> so you may find it interesting to read the whole
> chapter on lobha and upadana.
> 
> All- 
> he is also in the process of putting Concepts &
> Realities (much discussed here) on the same site.
> 
> So there's a lot of good Easter reading there and on
> dhammastudy.com & Zolag.
> 
> Kom,
> 
> you never know, you may find a few lurking nits...!
> Thanks in advance for your consideration.
> 
> Sarah
> 
> --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear K.
> Amara,
> > 
> > I haven't read Sarah's explanation thoroughly yet,
> > but it
> > sounds very plausible to me on the first pass.  I
> > think I
> > will be quite happy with her explanation...
> > 
> > Anumoddhana,
> > 
> > kom
> 
> 


 
4502 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 7:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear Robert,
I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper compare to US dollar from somewhere else.
Teng Kee



-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line


> Dear sarah,
> So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting
> others on gradually 
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm
> robert
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> > Dear Kom & Amara,
> > 
> > I just saw yesterday that Rob has put the
> > Visuddhimagga on abhidhamma.com
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links
> > 
> > (sorry- I haven't saved direct links yet)
> > 
> > so you may find it interesting to read the whole
> > chapter on lobha and upadana.
> > 
> > All- 
> > he is also in the process of putting Concepts &
> > Realities (much discussed here) on the same site.
> > 
> > So there's a lot of good Easter reading there and on
> > dhammastudy.com & Zolag.
> > 
> > Kom,
> > 
> > you never know, you may find a few lurking nits...!
> > Thanks in advance for your consideration.
> > 
> > Sarah
> > 

 
4503 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 8:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Well, actually Teng I didn't ask. A good topic to look at,
though. It was already placed by her on d-l on the internet and
I simply asked if I could put it on my site. If anyone complains
I'll take it off. I have 2 print copies myself but it is
convenient having it on-line for searching. 
As far as BPS goes: Nina van gorkom asked Bhikkhu Bodhi(chief
editor) if it was OK to put her articles that BPS had published
on the net and B. Bodhi said no one can copyright Dhamma. 
Another website -buddhasasana - is also soon to put the
Visuddhimagga on their site.
I plan to notify BPS once I get hold of the whole copy- but it
all takes time. Step by step.

It is all a tricky business - Dhamma and copyright and internet.
As you see I ask people to purchase a print copy. Really if
anyone reads it on the net they should see its value and
purchase it- ideally this will improve print sales. That is my
hope anyway.
So far it seems PTS don't allow internet copies of their works
but this may change as people are making their own translations-
but heavily based on the PTS originals- and putting them out
there. 
Is it good to have it all on the web?
Well, the oldtimers out there will remember the days when they
had to journey to Asia to find true Dhamma. Or at least join PTS
and feel the buoyancy in their wallet. Now people can get it in
their living room in between the News and movie of the week. It
makes it a little blase? 
Still it takes much, much effort to study and comprehend it and
sift the wheat from the chaff.
I don't know. Is it a good thing to promote it the way many are
doing? Do we make it too easy? I remember when I found a copy of
Abhidhamma in Daily Life in a secondhand bookstore in Sri lanka-
that alone justified my trip. Perhaps not quite the same feeling
if one comes across it after a 20 minute websurf? Or perhaps it
is? 
In the jatakas there was a king who was willing to surrender his
life just to hear one sentence of Dhamma - he valued it so
highly. Do we devalue it by giving it so easily? On the other
hand the Buddha occasionally spoke so that his voice could be
heard throughout the 10,000 fold world systems and further - it
beats even satellite. And moggallana spoke to the denizens of
hell.

I think the final answer may be that the internet makes easy
distribution inevitable and that Dhamma is there to be given to
people. Just musing to myself but look forward to comments.
robert

--- teng kee ong  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition
> of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society
> or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to
> recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version
> after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book
> from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper
> compare to US dollar from somewhere else.
> Teng Kee
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line
> 
> 
> > Dear sarah,
> > So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be
> putting
> > others on gradually 
> > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm
> > robert
> > 
> > 


 
4504 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Sarah,

Anumoddhana for this post.  I didn't find any nit to pick,
but will ask for some clarifications and add a few comments.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah]
>
> Dear Kom, Amara, Num,
>
> broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a
> condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa
> under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to
> dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg
> when one steals).

So you are saying here that dosa cannot be aramana of
lobha-mula cittas (you wouldn't cling to the dosa as
aramana).  However, dosa can condition dosa to rise anyway
through some other means.  The pakatu-nissaya paccaya
explanation makes sense intellectually.  The example I can
think off how this might happen is when I feel gratified
when my adversaries are sufferring.  Would you say this is a
fair example of dosa conditioning lobha?

>
> Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition
> for lobha:
>
> "What is intended here is but
> Resultant pleasant feeling; hence
> 'Tis a condition in one way
> for all this craving's occurrence.

Would you post the surrounding text for this quote?  I am
having some difficulty comprehending.

>
> In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support
> condition only. Or alternatively:
>
> A man in pain for pleasure longs,
> And finding pleasure, longs for more;
> The peace of equanimity
> is counted pleasure too; therefore
> The Greatest Sage announced the law
> 'With feeling as condition, craving',
> Since all three feelings thus can be
> conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11,
> 238)

Ah, yes, another example.  When I feel unpleasant, I often
look for something pleasant to be engaged in.  Dosa leading
to lobha, although in some even more complex manner other
than being the aramana.

> It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but
> isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how
> little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons
> of ignorance and wrong view?

Clinging to the wrong views seems to be very natural to me.
I observe in myself, and speculate in others.  For myself,
it also leads to mana (pride), etc., that I came up with
this idea, or have found an idea that works.  Unfortunately,
not at all stupid or hard to occur, even while studying
dhamma.

kom

 
4505 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Dear All, 

It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of 
finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of the 
person who first taught it.  Think of what the Buddha did in order to 
acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the 
rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it.  If memory serves he 
spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and 
alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning and 
afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night the 
deva and such, for forty five years.  A friend of mine always stressed 
that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on 
yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. 

And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma too 
much or not.  The times have changed, and certainly not for the 
better.  I hope I will always do my best to present the correct dhamma 
as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as long 
as I am able.  Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great 
heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and may 
we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that 
separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips,

Amara


 wrote:
> Well, actually Teng I didn't ask. A good topic to look at,
> though. It was already placed by her on d-l on the internet and
> I simply asked if I could put it on my site. If anyone complains
> I'll take it off. I have 2 print copies myself but it is
> convenient having it on-line for searching. 
> As far as BPS goes: Nina van gorkom asked Bhikkhu Bodhi(chief
> editor) if it was OK to put her articles that BPS had published
> on the net and B. Bodhi said no one can copyright Dhamma. 
> Another website -buddhasasana - is also soon to put the
> Visuddhimagga on their site.
> I plan to notify BPS once I get hold of the whole copy- but it
> all takes time. Step by step.
> 
> It is all a tricky business - Dhamma and copyright and internet.
> As you see I ask people to purchase a print copy. Really if
> anyone reads it on the net they should see its value and
> purchase it- ideally this will improve print sales. That is my
> hope anyway.
> So far it seems PTS don't allow internet copies of their works
> but this may change as people are making their own translations-
> but heavily based on the PTS originals- and putting them out
> there. 
> Is it good to have it all on the web?
> Well, the oldtimers out there will remember the days when they
> had to journey to Asia to find true Dhamma. Or at least join PTS
> and feel the buoyancy in their wallet. Now people can get it in
> their living room in between the News and movie of the week. It
> makes it a little blase? 
> Still it takes much, much effort to study and comprehend it and
> sift the wheat from the chaff.
> I don't know. Is it a good thing to promote it the way many are
> doing? Do we make it too easy? I remember when I found a copy of
> Abhidhamma in Daily Life in a secondhand bookstore in Sri lanka-
> that alone justified my trip. Perhaps not quite the same feeling
> if one comes across it after a 20 minute websurf? Or perhaps it
> is? 
> In the jatakas there was a king who was willing to surrender his
> life just to hear one sentence of Dhamma - he valued it so
> highly. Do we devalue it by giving it so easily? On the other
> hand the Buddha occasionally spoke so that his voice could be
> heard throughout the 10,000 fold world systems and further - it
> beats even satellite. And moggallana spoke to the denizens of
> hell.
> 
> I think the final answer may be that the internet makes easy
> distribution inevitable and that Dhamma is there to be given to
> people. Just musing to myself but look forward to comments.
> robert
> 
> --- teng kee ong wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> > I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition
> > of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society
> > or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to
> > recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version
> > after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book
> > from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper
> > compare to US dollar from somewhere else.
> > Teng Kee
> > 
> > 
> > 

 
4506 From: Alex T 
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 11:14pm
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Dear Robert and all,

   I think that we may propagate Dhamma as hard as we can, but it's 
up to the accumulations of the readers to get as much out of it as 
possible.  

   Thank you for the effort.  I appreciate the materials in the Net 
very much.

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
4507 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 11:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Dear group,
A member who hasn't posted on dsg yet sent me this and said I
could post it.
Robert,
> >
> > Many thanks for your reply. As someone whose principle
> > exposure to Dhamma
> > is via the internet, I must say how grateful I am to the
many
> > people who so
> > generously have shared their time, knowledge, texts etc. so
as
> > to make it
> > available to those who are ready but might not otherwise
have
> > had access. A
> > trip to Asia has not been possible for me (although I hope
to
> > go in the
> > next year or two-
The
> > scary thought is that without the internet I might have
> > remained even more
> > entangled in samsara. Therefore, as you see, I am a big
> > supporter of the
> > more the better. I can't help but feel that Dhamma is too
> > valuable to be a
> > commodity, although I certainly don't begrudge writers or
> > publishers
> > earning money so that they can carry on doing more.
> >
> > It was on the internet that I first read the Four Noble
> > Truths. I then went
> > to classes and learned of the Noble Eightfold Path from a
> > practicing
> > Buddhist  Sri Lankan professor (taught free). I now go to
> > meditation class
> > at which free Dhamma books from Amaravati are regularly
> > distributed.
> >
> > I have good friends in Hong Kong who keep asking me to
visit,
> > so maybe I
> > will be coming that way sometime.
> >
> > Many thanks for your thoughts.
> > Metta,
> > Victoria
> >





 
4508 From: wynn   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 2:56pm
Subject: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Why does it take at least 7 days to be enlighten?
Why 7?

Digha Nikaya 22
Maha-Satipatthana Sutta
"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. 

"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. 

"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. 


 
4509 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Teng,

I am confused by your question. What are you asking? What is the point you
are trying to get across?

Is it about copyright?


Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: teng kee ong 
Date: Wednesday, 4 April 2001 21:08
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line


>Dear Robert,
>I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition of
visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society or not.I hope
you did and have another person behind her to recheck her typing.also there
should be zip download version after it is completed.I want to add that to
order this book from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be
cheaper compare to US dollar from somewhere else.
>Teng Kee
>


 
4510 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Dear Robert, Victoria,

Just a couple of real quickies as a break from packing
and last minute office and domestic chores before I
head off for the airport. (Jon is already in
Adelaide).

I fully agree with Victoria. It's a wonderful way of
sharing dhamma for those who might not otherwise have
contact or access.

Even for people like myself who have had access for a
long time, this is really an enjoyable and useful way
to study and share. I wish (not helpful I know!) I'd
had these resources a long time ago!

Victoria, thank you for allowing Rob to post your
letter. Please do let us know more about yourself and
interest in dhamma and how you came to explore this
topic on the net. 

Of course, you must let us know when you come to Hong
Kong and we'll be delighted to take you out for a
'dhamma' lunch! Are you in England now? London?

Best regards and welcome to the list.

Sarah

p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma resources
on the net, I also think it's important to respect
copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can only
continue to support translation work and produce books
if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet will
encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no idea
about this. I think we have to just respect any
decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to
dipping into texts, but I can see the next generation
will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With the
severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would have
some immediate advantages!~




 
4511 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Teng,

Herman's message just reminds me, in your earlier post
you mentioned about the lost commentaries.

I would just like to send you my very best wishes in
your search for these. Please let us know if you ever
have any success in this.

Sarah


 
4512 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Kom,

No time to start opening texts.

In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as
object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa
being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a
condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong
dependence of natural condition) rather than as
arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached
to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave,
there is dosa because one has no money, this is a
natural support condition for the lobha which
motivates the stealing of some money.

If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for
example when one takes delight in someone's suffering,
the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight
in the sound and visible object experienced directly
as arammana (object) condition, for example.

I'd like to follow this further, but must REALLY RUN
at Num's speed now. Sorry this is so brief. I'd also
like to follow along the lobha, mana and wrong view
thread too, but it'll all have to wait (unless you and
others like Rob get it sorted out in my absence!)

Thanks,
Sarah



--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> Anumoddhana for this post.  I didn't find any nit to
> pick,
> but will ask for some clarifications and add a few
> comments.
> 
> >
> > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a
> > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice
> versa
> > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead
> to
> > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha
> (eg
> > when one steals).
> 
> So you are saying here that dosa cannot be aramana
> of
> lobha-mula cittas (you wouldn't cling to the dosa as
> aramana).  However, dosa can condition dosa to rise
> anyway
> through some other means.  The pakatu-nissaya
> paccaya
> explanation makes sense intellectually.  The example
> I can
> think off how this might happen is when I feel
> gratified
> when my adversaries are sufferring.  Would you say
> this is a
> fair example of dosa conditioning lobha?
> 
> >
> > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a
> condition
> > for lobha:
> >
> > "What is intended here is but
> > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence
> > 'Tis a condition in one way
> > for all this craving's occurrence.
> 
> Would you post the surrounding text for this quote? 
> I am
> having some difficulty comprehending.
> 
> >
> > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support
> > condition only. Or alternatively:
> >
> > A man in pain for pleasure longs,
> > And finding pleasure, longs for more;
> > The peace of equanimity
> > is counted pleasure too; therefore
> > The Greatest Sage announced the law
> > 'With feeling as condition, craving',
> > Since all three feelings thus can be
> > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis,
> XV11,
> > 238)
> 
> Ah, yes, another example.  When I feel unpleasant, I
> often
> look for something pleasant to be engaged in.  Dosa
> leading
> to lobha, although in some even more complex manner
> other
> than being the aramana.
> 
> > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views,
> but
> > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting
> how
> > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the
> aeons
> > of ignorance and wrong view?
> 
> Clinging to the wrong views seems to be very natural
> to me.
> I observe in myself, and speculate in others.  For
> myself,
> it also leads to mana (pride), etc., that I came up
> with
> this idea, or have found an idea that works. 
> Unfortunately,
> not at all stupid or hard to occur, even while
> studying
> dhamma.
> 
> kom



 
4513 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha(Re: Quiz

 
  Dear sarah,
I don't have time to look up texts. Briefly
dosa cannot be arammana-Upanissaya-paccaya (object-decisive
support condition) or arammana-adhipatti-paccaya
(object-predominace condition). However, apart from the examples
you mention I think it it can be a condition in other ways for
either kusala or akusala.
For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya for
insight to arise. Or it can be arammana-paccaya for lobha if we
want it to stop - and in that case the lobha is also immediately
likely to condition more dosa - a vicious circle. I also assume
dosa can be arammana paccaya for lobha for some who think anger
is good.  
Check on this. I haven't looked at the Patthana for a long time.
robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Kom,
> 
> No time to start opening texts.
> 
> In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as
> object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa
> being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a
> condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong
> dependence of natural condition) rather than as
> arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached
> to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave,
> there is dosa because one has no money, this is a
> natural support condition for the lobha which
> motivates the stealing of some money.
> 
> If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for
> example when one takes delight in someone's suffering,
> the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight
> in the sound and visible object experienced directly
> as arammana (object) condition, for example.
> 
> I'd like to follow this further, but must REALLY RUN
> at Num's speed now. Sorry this is so brief. I'd also
> like to follow along the lobha, mana and wrong view
> thread too, but it'll all have to wait (unless you and
> others like Rob get it sorted out in my absence!)
> 
> Thanks,
> Sarah
> 
> 
> 
> --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear
> Sarah,
> > 
> > Anumoddhana for this post.  I didn't find any nit to
> > pick,
> > but will ask for some clarifications and add a few
> > comments.
> > 
> > >
> > > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a
> > > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice
> > versa
> > > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead
> > to
> > > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha
> > (eg
> > > when one steals).
> > 
> > So you are saying here that dosa cannot be aramana
> > of
> > lobha-mula cittas (you wouldn't cling to the dosa as
> > aramana).  However, dosa can condition dosa to rise
> > anyway
> > through some other means.  The pakatu-nissaya
> > paccaya
> > explanation makes sense intellectually.  The example
> > I can
> > think off how this might happen is when I feel
> > gratified
> > when my adversaries are sufferring.  Would you say
> > this is a
> > fair example of dosa conditioning lobha?
> > 
> > >
> > > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a
> > condition
> > > for lobha:
> > >
> > > "What is intended here is but
> > > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence
> > > 'Tis a condition in one way
> > > for all this craving's occurrence.
> > 
> > Would you post the surrounding text for this quote? 
> > I am
> > having some difficulty comprehending.
> > 
> > >
> > > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support
> > > condition only. Or alternatively:
> > >
> > > A man in pain for pleasure longs,
> > > And finding pleasure, longs for more;
> > > The peace of equanimity
> > > is counted pleasure too; therefore
> > > The Greatest Sage announced the law
> > > 'With feeling as condition, craving',
> > > Since all three feelings thus can be
> > > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis,
> > XV11,
> > > 238)
> > 
> > Ah, yes, another example.  When I feel unpleasant, I
> > often
> > look for something pleasant to be engaged in.  Dosa
> > leading
> > to lobha, although in some even more complex manner
> > other
> > than being the aramana.
> > 
> > > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views,
> > but
> > > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting
> > how
> > > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the
> > aeons
> > > of ignorance and wrong view?
> > 
> > Clinging to the wrong views seems to be very natural
> > to me.
> > I observe in myself, and speculate in others.  For
> > myself,
> > it also leads to mana (pride), etc., that I came up
> > with
> > this idea, or have found an idea that works. 
> > Unfortunately,
> > not at all stupid or hard to occur, even while
> > studying
> > dhamma.
> > 
> > kom
> 
> 
>


 
4514 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz

 
  Well i decided to look up some texts. I can't find anywhere
where it says dosa can be arammana-paccaya for lobha, so maybe
what I said was wrong. maybe it is by pakatupanissaya -paccaya
only. I wrote the following based on Nina van Gorkoms
"conditions:
We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome habits over
the course of this infinite samsara. By pakatupanissaya paccaya
the unwholesome accumulations  condition akusala citta
(unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy to see.
However, also  akusala(unwholesome)   can condition 
kusala(wholesome) .One  might  regret the akusala one did  and
this conditions kusala. The “Patthhana” (Faultless triplet Vii
423, ):

"After having killed, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the
precept,fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhana, develops
insight, develops Path, develops superknowledge, develops
attainment, to counteract it."

The same is said about other bad deeds, they can be a condition
for kusala. When we directly understand any akusala (hate, fear,
desire etc) as it is, a mere paramattha dhamma, there is
awareness that had as one of its conditions that akusala.

 Also kusala citta can condition akusala citta. The “Patthana”
(,  423, II b):“Confidence, precept, learning, generosity,
wisdom is related to lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views,
wish, by (natural) strong dependence-condition.”

For instance one may listen to Dhamma from a teacher and develop
saddha (confidence ) in Buddhism. But then follow the teacher
even when they teach some aspects of the Dhamma wrongly. Because
of that one develops wrong view and wrong practice.

Or one may study the Abhidhamma and because of that develop
conceit about ones knowledge.
 
robert

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> Dear sarah,
> I don't have time to look up texts. Briefly
> dosa cannot be arammana-Upanissaya-paccaya (object-decisive
> support condition) or arammana-adhipatti-paccaya
> (object-predominace condition). However, apart from the
> examples
> you mention I think it it can be a condition in other ways for
> either kusala or akusala.
> For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya
> for
> insight to arise. Or it can be arammana-paccaya for lobha if
> we
> want it to stop - and in that case the lobha is also
> immediately
> likely to condition more dosa - a vicious circle. I also
> assume
> dosa can be arammana paccaya for lobha for some who think
> anger
> is good.  
> Check on this. I haven't looked at the Patthana for a long
> time.
> robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> wrote:
> > Dear Kom,
> > 
> > No time to start opening texts.
> > 
> > In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as
> > object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa
> > being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a
> > condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong
> > dependence of natural condition) rather than as
> > arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached
> > to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave,
> > there is dosa because one has no money, this is a
> > natural support condition for the lobha which
> > motivates the stealing of some money.
> > 
> > If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for
> > example when one takes delight in someone's suffering,
> > the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight
> > in the sound and visible object experienced directly
> > as arammana (object) condition, for example.
> > 
> > I'd like to follow this further, but must REALLY RUN
> > at Num's speed now. Sorry this is so brief. I'd also
> > like to follow along the lobha, mana and wrong view
> > thread too, but it'll all have to wait (unless you and
> > others like Rob get it sorted out in my absence!)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Sarah
> > 
> > 
> > 


 
4515 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 7:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  dear herman and robert,
I am just care about how Buddhist publication society in sri lanka can survive if all their books can be put online.I agree with as many as their books  should be put online if the books are  without typing error.Since bhikkhu bodhi said no copyright for his dhamma,someone in this list can start typing in Bodhi's books from BPS--bramajala,sammanaphala,mahanidana,sammaditthi sutta plus his abhidhammatthasanghaha.As far as i know only one book from bps which are not Wheel /bodhi series -Narada abhidhamatthasangaha is put online.
i am sure someone have time to do this.
from Teng Kee

-----Original Message-----
From: "Herman Hofman" 
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:58:57 +1000
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line


> Teng,
> 
> I am confused by your question. What are you asking? What is the point you
> are trying to get across?
> 
> Is it about copyright?
> 
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 

 
4516 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  --- teng kee ong  wrote:
> dear herman and robert,
> I am just care about how Buddhist publication society in sri
> lanka can survive if all their books can be put online.I agree
> with as many as their books  should be put online if the books
> are  without typing error.Since bhikkhu bodhi said no
> copyright for his dhamma,someone in this list can start typing
> in Bodhi's books from
> BPS--bramajala,sammanaphala,mahanidana,sammaditthi sutta plus
> his abhidhammatthasanghaha.

Actually he was replying to a question from Nina as to whether
her books (published by BPS) could go on-line. I was quoting
second hand here too. I am going to ask him directly on this
matter in the future when I have more time and have thought more
about the whole internet/copyright/Dhamma issue. As you and
sarah have indicated both BPS and PTS need book sales to
continue their operations; I have reservations about putting all
their stuff on the web. I was glad you brought up the
Visuddhimagga as I certainly would not like to be a cause for
less book sales. The one thing about Visuddhimagga, though - how
many people want to read a 900 page book on the web or print it
out. I think anyone who had the money would prefer the book
version. 
Robert
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Herman Hofman" 
> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:58:57 +1000
> > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line
> 
> 
> > Teng,
> > 
> > I am confused by your question. What are you asking? What is
> the point you
> > are trying to get across?
> > 
> > Is it about copyright?
> > 
> > 
> > Kind Regards
> > 
> > 
> > Herman
> > 


 
4517 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Sarah,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:38 AM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz
>
>
> Dear Kom,
>
> In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as
> object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa

It was one own's dosa I was referring to.  I think having
other's dosa as aramana is speculation (that others have
dosa) at best, whereas one's own dosa can be paramatha even
without satipatthana.

> being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a
> condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong
> dependence of natural condition) rather than as
> arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached
> to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave,
> there is dosa because one has no money, this is a
> natural support condition for the lobha which
> motivates the stealing of some money.
>
> If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for
> example when one takes delight in someone's suffering,
> the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight
> in the sound and visible object experienced directly
> as arammana (object) condition, for example.

When I referred to "when one takes delights in one's
adversary's suffering", what I meant was the followings.
When I think of someone as an adversary, then there bounds
to be some anger associated with it.  The anger conditions
indirectly the arising of lobha (satisfaction) of seeing the
adversary's suffering.

Thanks for replying.

kom

 
4518 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 11:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear Robert,

May you be the first to get enlightened [if not already], for your efforts.

with metta,
des


>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear sarah,
>So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting
>others on gradually
>http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm
>robert
>


 
4519 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Well thank you very much Des. And may I wish the same to you.

Of course, it isn't too difficult putting someone's translation
on a website. The one who typed it worked hard, though. Doing a
translation- now that is really HARD work (I am sure). And
comprehending the Dhamma is much harder again. Still there are
many benefits on the way to full comprehension. And when there
is kusala nothing seems onerous anyway.
looking forward to your posts Des
robert



--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> May you be the first to get enlightened [if not already], for
> your efforts.
> 
> with metta,
> des
> 
> 
> >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
> > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line
> >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Dear sarah,
> >So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting
> >others on gradually
> >http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm
> >robert
> >



 
4520 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala  
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 1:27am
Subject: Re: dhamma online: a wonderful opportunity

 
  Dear Robert,
I very heartily endorse Visudhimagga and other texts being placed online,
including discussion groups and any other ways in which dhamma can be
transmitted to people. The more access there is to dhamma, the more people
will become interested in it, depending, of course, on their accumulations.
But at least this way, more and more people can be exposed to it, and
through studyof the various texts, which may be available only online for
many, the conditions can be developed for satipatthana to arise. It is
through the dsg that I was able to connect with Jack, O, and Amara and
"find" Achaan Suchin. I am eternally grateful to the "miracle" of internet.

Anomodhana to all of you who make it possible for dhamma to be spread to so
many people and places,

Betty
__________________________

 
4521 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 2:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Dear Robert, dear Victoria, dear group

I am still in London and I get the chance to greet everybody and comment on 
this mail because I have been corresponding with Victoria off list and she 
has been most supportive and kind to me; she has just returned from a trip 
and hopefully we are going to meet soon before I depart.
I welcome her to the list and send my best regards to this nice dhamma 
sister that as it happens I first met through the internet brotherhood for 
which I am grateful as well.

Love and respect
Cybele


>>Dear group,
>A member who hasn't posted on dsg yet sent me this and said I
>could post it.
>Robert,
> > >
> > > Many thanks for your reply. As someone whose principle
> > > exposure to Dhamma
> > > is via the internet, I must say how grateful I am to the
>many
> > > people who so
> > > generously have shared their time, knowledge, texts etc. so
>as
> > > to make it
> > > available to those who are ready but might not otherwise
>have
> > > had access. A
> > > trip to Asia has not been possible for me (although I hope
>to
> > > go in the
> > > next year or two-
>The
> > > scary thought is that without the internet I might have
> > > remained even more
> > > entangled in samsara. Therefore, as you see, I am a big
> > > supporter of the
> > > more the better. I can't help but feel that Dhamma is too
> > > valuable to be a
> > > commodity, although I certainly don't begrudge writers or
> > > publishers
> > > earning money so that they can carry on doing more.
> > >
> > > It was on the internet that I first read the Four Noble
> > > Truths. I then went
> > > to classes and learned of the Noble Eightfold Path from a
> > > practicing
> > > Buddhist  Sri Lankan professor (taught free). I now go to
> > > meditation class
> > > at which free Dhamma books from Amaravati are regularly
> > > distributed.
> > >
> > > I have good friends in Hong Kong who keep asking me to
>visit,
> > > so maybe I
> > > will be coming that way sometime.
> > >
> > > Many thanks for your thoughts.
> > > Metta,
> > > Victoria
> > >
>

 
4522 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:31am
Subject: Dosa-lobha(Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Rob,
You wrote:
> For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya for
> insight to arise. 
Are you sure?

 
4523 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:36am
Subject: Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Rob, 
You wrote:

> only. I wrote the following based on Nina van Gorkoms
> "conditions:
> We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome habits over
> the course of this infinite samsara. By pakatupanissaya paccaya
> the unwholesome accumulations  condition akusala citta
> (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy to see.
> However, also  akusala(unwholesome)   can condition 
> kusala(wholesome) .

What is "habit"?

 
 
4524 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:42am
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Isn't BPS organized quite differently from PTS? After all, what salary 
do you suppose Bhikkhu Bodhi gets? And what royalties does Nanamoli 
get for his translation work? Is BPS a non-profit? I know their books 
seem expensive (but not compared to PTS!), but does the cost cover 
much more than the cost of typesetting, printing, and shipping books 
with small distributions? 

> p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma resources
> on the net, I also think it's important to respect
> copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can only
> continue to support translation work and produce books
> if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet will
> encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no idea
> about this. I think we have to just respect any
> decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to
> dipping into texts, but I can see the next generation
> will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With the
> severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would have
> some immediate advantages!~
> 
> 
> 

 
4525 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 7:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz

 
  Dear Dan,
I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or
unholsome habitual actions.
Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four
karmas that determine the quality of our next
existence.
[1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action
[2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate action
[3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual actions
[4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that can
not be included in the above three.

Hope that clarifies your question a little.

metta,
des
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Dear Rob, 
> You wrote:
> 
> > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van
> Gorkoms
> > "conditions:
> > We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome
> habits over
> > the course of this infinite samsara. By
> pakatupanissaya paccaya
> > the unwholesome accumulations  condition akusala
> citta
> > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy
> to see.
> > However, also  akusala(unwholesome)   can
> condition 
> > kusala(wholesome) .
> 
> What is "habit"? 
> 



 
4526 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:56am
Subject: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Dear Rob,
> You wrote:
> > For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya
> for
> > insight to arise. 

> Are you sure?
> 

dear Dan, 
I think it can. Dosa (aversion) is part of sankhara-khanda
(aggregate of formations) and thus it is a paramattha dhamma. It
should be comprehended as it is a daily reality (as fear, anger,
boredom, irritation, slight discomfort of mind....).
It is also part of the ayatanas - it is dhammayatanam. And a
dhatu - dhammadhatu.
The khandas, ayatanas and dhatus (aggregates, senses fields and
elements) are the ways of classifying paramattha dhammas and
they are the objects for insight. 

From the commentary to the Satipatthana sutta:
"Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu
lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the
five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or
amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time
amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time
amongst the mental objects of another's mind. 

Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the
Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the
bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood.
""(endquote)

I had a conversation about this with a good friend sometime
back:
 You wondered
“if a mind filled with hatred” would be conducive to
insight and awareness. 
First let us remember that mind is a concept. There
are only namas and rupas. And namas are arising and
passing away ceaselessly. 
I guess what you mean by a mind filled with hatred is
either when we are very angry with someone or perhaps
the case of a person who is often overwhelmed by
hatred, who dwells hating others. There is much in the
texts about the dangers of hatred and all of us – who
are interested in Dhamma- have no problem in seeing
the danger of it. 

Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I
would like to examine our attitude to it and to the
Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our
attitude one that only wants to have “good” dhammas?
If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think
weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
equanimous, compassionate, insightful person.
Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to
perfecting this Dhamma idol.

Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no
matter what? If so then remember that hatred
is another dhamma that arises and should be
investigated. 
When hatred arises it is the asavas, the
tendencies showing themselves.
 

Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should
accept it and study it?  If we investigate we 
see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as “HE
did that to ME” and “HE is bad”. In other words one of
the co-conditions of hatred is  avijja (ignorance, moha)
that  is lost in the world of concepts(pannati) (of “he” and
“me” and “they”) . If one can investigate in this way
one is learning much about the way things work; and
that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one
thinks in other ways such as “but in reality there is
no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those
aggregates that arose even one second ago have
completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the
air?” that there cannot be hatred at the exact same
moments. And then we might think again, forgetting
Dhamma, “but HE did that to ME” and see how again
hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very
simple example but perhaps it conditions some
reflection.  We cannot have hatred continually even if
we want to. There are so many other moments such as
seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that
arise too, that can be understood.

This is
understanding at the level of thinking only but it is
still helpful.

Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm
feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems,
fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good
or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati? Then there
are other namas arising. Their characteristic can’t be
changed.  
----------------

I wrote
"we must remember that
> hatred
> > is another dhamma that arises and should be
> > investigated."

> > .You replied          "Yes, but I have some
problems in facing
> that. Sometimes it is easy to me,
> but in another circumstances, I find myself lost in
> the mud ...."

This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage
and search for ways other than the direct
understanding of paramattha dhammas.
 The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is
the real one, cannot make our life more difficult.
 I would say be glad when things get hard,
when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when
adhittha (determination) parami and patience parami can arise.
They
can support panna and then you may be able to see that
akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely
dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be
understood. 

This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be
crossed. Once we truly understand that  these powerful
emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas
they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them
with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do
this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.)

 If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we
should know that this is  suppression, to some degree . Even if
we succeed we have missed the chance to really understand
them. The other ways- even correct development of
samatha- can only suppress at best. (Of course, samatha can be a
very beneficial too- there is no rule that direct insight is the
only type of kusala that should be developed- all types are to
be encouraged)
 Vis XV163 “The
perfect ones behave like lions. When they make
suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation
of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit.
But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make
suffering cease and when they teach the cessation of
suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification
etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause.” 

In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the
Bodhisatta thought “why do I always dwell expecting
fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread
while keeping the same posture that I am in when it
comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came
upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had
subdued that fear and dread…While I lay down that fear
and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor
sat down til I had subdued that fear and dread”

Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do
bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it
really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not
“my anger, my hate”. Satipatthana protects – it shows
us the difference between concept and reality. It is
because we take concepts such as people for real
things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a
story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha
dhamma.
 The path is simple and direct – the understanding of
whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but
of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and
wrong view are liable to arise. There is often  hidden
attachment to self that thinks “I am understanding,
this is my understanding’: easy not to see this. And
hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to
understand. 
Robert



4527 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Dan & others

I'm wondering if there could be a sila aspect here. 
The skill and labour involved in translating/writing
and arranging something for publication is something
that is not given away unconditionally when the work
is published.  It seems to me appropriate to seek
approval before publishing another's work on a
website.

Jon

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Isn't BPS
organized quite differently from PTS?
> After all, what salary 
> do you suppose Bhikkhu Bodhi gets? And what
> royalties does Nanamoli 
> get for his translation work? Is BPS a non-profit? I
> know their books 
> seem expensive (but not compared to PTS!), but does
> the cost cover 
> much more than the cost of typesetting, printing,
> and shipping books 
> with small distributions? 
> 
> > p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma
> resources
> > on the net, I also think it's important to respect
> > copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can
> only
> > continue to support translation work and produce
> books
> > if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet
> will
> > encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no
> idea
> > about this. I think we have to just respect any
> > decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to
> > dipping into texts, but I can see the next
> generation
> > will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With
> the
> > severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would
> have
> > some immediate advantages!~
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



 
4528 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 11:00am
Subject: Copyright

 
  Hi all,

I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which revolved around
copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be the ownership
of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies on the notion
of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I accept that
under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, and that no
state would hesitate to use all means available to it to enforce compliance
with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.

My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is wrong view.
How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the notion of
ownership.
And what a tangled web is copyright.

Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to those who have truly
renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.


Herman

 
4529 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz

 
  Des

> I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or
> unholsome habitual actions.
> Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four
> karmas that determine the quality of our next
> existence.
> [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action
> [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate
> action
> [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual actions
> [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that can
> not be included in the above three.

I think that Rob was talking in his post about
habitual accumulations/tendencies, not habitual
actions, when he said:

> We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome
habits over
> the course of this infinite samsara. By
pakatupanissaya paccaya
> the unwholesome accumulations  condition akusala
citta
> (unwholesome mindstate) now. 

As Rob said, it is these unwholesome accumulated
tendencies (anusaya) that condition unwholesome citta
(mental consciousness).  The mental factor of cetana
(intention) that accompanies such citta may be of the
level of unwholesome kamma, or it may not.

Jon


 
4530 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:14am
Subject: Accumulations, habits

 
  Thank you Des.
Another word for habit or accumulation is vassana (spelling?).
Even arahants still have these. So there is the example of I
think mahakaccana who used to jump over puddles in an unbecoming
manner because he had many past lives as a monkey. Or another
arahant who uses to address everyone as 'servant' because for so
many lives he had been a highclass Brahmin. He had no bad
intention, of course.
Another word for wholesome accumulations from the past is
pubbekata punaatta. 
The texts often mention accumulations:
from the therigatha-atthakatha
Theri Anopama (p178 of transltion by Pruitt)
"she too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and
accumulated good in various lives as basis for release" (this
phrase is repeated for many of the Nuns in the therigatha.)
robert

--- Chiong Desmond  wrote:
> Dear Dan,
> I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or
> unholsome habitual actions.
> Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four
> karmas that determine the quality of our next
> existence.
> [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action
> [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate action
> [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual actions
> [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that can
> not be included in the above three.
> 
> Hope that clarifies your question a little.
> 
> metta,
> des
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > Dear Rob, 
> > You wrote:
> > 
> > > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van
> > Gorkoms
> > > "conditions:
> > > We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome
> > habits over
> > > the course of this infinite samsara. By
> > pakatupanissaya paccaya
> > > the unwholesome accumulations  condition akusala
> > citta
> > > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy
> > to see.
> > > However, also  akusala(unwholesome)   can
> > condition 
> > > kusala(wholesome) .
> > 
> > What is "habit"? 
> > 


 
4531 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright

 
  Complicated indeed is copyright when it comes to Dhamma, Herman.
However, Buddhism does recognise ownership of material
possesions. Monks are expelled from the order for taking even
something worth a dollar or so. 
robert
--- Herman Hofman  wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which
> revolved around
> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be
> the ownership
> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies
> on the notion
> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I
> accept that
> under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred,
> and that no
> state would hesitate to use all means available to it to
> enforce compliance
> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.
> 
> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is
> wrong view.
> How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the
> notion of
> ownership.
> And what a tangled web is copyright.
> 
> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to those who have
> truly
> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.
> 
> 
> Herman
> 



 
4532 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 0:35pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism

 
  Dear Herman,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herman Hofman 
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have been pondering some of the recent
> discussions which revolved around
> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand
> copyright to be the ownership
> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of
> copyright relies on the notion
> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion
> of self. I accept that
> under the laws of most countries these ideas are
> held sacred, and that no
> state would hesitate to use all means available
> to it to enforce compliance
> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.
>
> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion
> of self is wrong view.
> How compounded then is the wrong view that
> entertains the notion of
> ownership.
> And what a tangled web is copyright.
>
> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to
> those who have truly
> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.
>
>
> Herman

Indeed, if you perform such an analysis, there is no person,
no possession, and therefore, performing any kind of deed
toward that person or their posessions has no results since
they don't exist.  An obvious wrong view.

I think the answer is in the cetana.  If the cetana is
akusala, and its strength conditions actual deed/speeches,
then the results will be akusala-vipaka.  Killing, stealing,
committing adultery, bad speeches all obviously conditioned
by akusala cetana, and hence will give bad results.

kom

 
4533 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 1:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright

 
  Robert,

Thank you for the reply and the information.

Are monks allowed to have any material possessions? Somewhere in the back of
my head I have this idea that they are allowed the bare minimum only.


Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Friday, 6 April 2001 11:55
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright


>Complicated indeed is copyright when it comes to Dhamma, Herman.
>However, Buddhism does recognise ownership of material
>possesions. Monks are expelled from the order for taking even
>something worth a dollar or so.
>robert
>--- Herman Hofman  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which
>> revolved around
>> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be
>> the ownership
>> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies
>> on the notion
>> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I
>> accept that
>> under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred,
>> and that no
>> state would hesitate to use all means available to it to
>> enforce compliance
>> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.
>>
>> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is
>> wrong view.
>> How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the
>> notion of
>> ownership.
>> And what a tangled web is copyright.
>>
>> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
>> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to those who have
>> truly
>> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.
>>
>>
>> Herman
>>
>>

 
4534 From: Num 
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits

 
  Hi Rob,

I think you mean Ven.Sariputta, who liked to jump across the canal instead of 
using a bridge when he led monks on alms round. He also liked to hang his 
umbrella at the top of the tree not at the ground level.  Some people asked 
the Buddha, was Ven.Sariputta really an arahant with those peculiar habits. 
The Buddha confirmed that he was but b/c he had taken many lifetimes as a 
monkey in the past so some engrained habits were still there.

Regarding habits, I still cannot come up with clear answer.  As I read Nina's 
writing on Paccaya, she mentioned Chanda cetasika in 
(sahajata)-adhipathi-paccaya, she said that "lobha is attached to the object 
it experiences, but it cannot accomplish it enterprise, it's is not a 
predominant factor. Chanda, zeal or wish to do, which accompanies 
lobha-mula-citta can be predominant factor in accomplishment of one's 
undertaking, " Chanda and viriya can be predominant in the accomplishment 
both in wholesome and unwholesome way.  Then she talked about 
arammanadhipati-paccaya, she said that 2 dosa-mula-citta, 2 moha-mula-citta 
and dhkkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati b/c they are not desirable 
realities.

I have to go to bed. I think anantarupanissaya-paccaya and 
pakatupanissaya-paccaya can also explain some part of accumulation and habit 
by paccaya explanation.  If I have time I will look in Patthana for more 
detail.  I think Kom is pretty good at explanation and cross-examination. 
Hope he will give me some input.

A lot more to learn for me.

Until later,

Num

 
4535 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 2:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism

 
  Kom,

I readily accept what you are saying.

I always wonder what the world would like if everyone observed the precept
to not take what is not given.


Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Kom Tukovinit 
Date: Friday, 6 April 2001 14:07
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism


>Dear Herman,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Herman Hofman 
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have been pondering some of the recent
>> discussions which revolved around
>> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand
>> copyright to be the ownership
>> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of
>> copyright relies on the notion
>> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion
>> of self. I accept that
>> under the laws of most countries these ideas are
>> held sacred, and that no
>> state would hesitate to use all means available
>> to it to enforce compliance
>> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.
>>
>> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion
>> of self is wrong view.
>> How compounded then is the wrong view that
>> entertains the notion of
>> ownership.
>> And what a tangled web is copyright.
>>
>> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
>> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to
>> those who have truly
>> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.
>>
>>
>> Herman
>
>Indeed, if you perform such an analysis, there is no person,
>no possession, and therefore, performing any kind of deed
>toward that person or their posessions has no results since
>they don't exist.  An obvious wrong view.
>
>I think the answer is in the cetana.  If the cetana is
>akusala, and its strength conditions actual deed/speeches,
>then the results will be akusala-vipaka.  Killing, stealing,
>committing adultery, bad speeches all obviously conditioned
>by akusala cetana, and hence will give bad results.
>
>kom
>


 
4536 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 4/5/01 10:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Herman H writes:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which revolved around
> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be the ownership
> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies on the notion
> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I accept that
> under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, and that no
> state would hesitate to use all means available to it to enforce compliance
> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.
> 
> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is wrong view.
> How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the notion of
> ownership.
> And what a tangled web is copyright.
> 
> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to those who have truly
> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
==============================
       So there's no self, and there's no ownership. Nonetheless, there is a 
precept against stealing, and theft presupposes ownership. In fact there *is* 
such a thing as ownership, not in an absolute sense, but in a conventional 
and relative one. When you or I work, producing something, it is *wrong* for 
another to take it from us on the grounds that we don't "really" own it, and, 
in fact, "you" and "I" are mere concepts.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4537 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 1:43pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism

 
  Dear Herman,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herman Hofman 
>
> I always wonder what the world would like if
> everyone observed the precept
> to not take what is not given.

I think the Tipitaka/Commentaries mentioned such a world
where people perfectly observe the five precepts.  There is
nothing to be taken because there is no ownership in the
world: everybody can take anything they want.  However, I
believe Buddhas aren't born in that world, and are not
inclined (???) to spread dhamma to such a world (why???).

kom

 
4538 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits

 
  Thank you num. I have never have been good at names.
rob
--- Num wrote:
> Hi Rob,
> 
> I think you mean Ven.Sariputta, who liked to jump across the
> canal instead of 
> using a bridge when he led monks on alms round. He also liked
> to hang his 
> umbrella at the top of the tree not at the ground level.  Some
> people asked 
> the Buddha, was Ven.Sariputta really an arahant with those
> peculiar habits. 
> The Buddha confirmed that he was but b/c he had taken many
> lifetimes as a 
> monkey in the past so some engrained habits were still there.
> 
> Regarding habits, I still cannot come up with clear answer. 
> As I read Nina's 
> writing on Paccaya, she mentioned Chanda cetasika in 
> (sahajata)-adhipathi-paccaya, she said that "lobha is attached
> to the object 
> it experiences, but it cannot accomplish it enterprise, it's
> is not a 
> predominant factor. Chanda, zeal or wish to do, which
> accompanies 
> lobha-mula-citta can be predominant factor in accomplishment
> of one's 
> undertaking, " Chanda and viriya can be predominant in the
> accomplishment 
> both in wholesome and unwholesome way.  Then she talked about 
> arammanadhipati-paccaya, she said that 2 dosa-mula-citta, 2
> moha-mula-citta 
> and dhkkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati b/c they are
> not desirable 
> realities.
> 
> 


 
 
4539 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Very nice that you are meeting. Makes the internet a warmer
place too.
robert
--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
> 
> Dear Robert, dear Victoria, dear group
> 
> I am still in London and I get the chance to greet everybody
> and comment on 
> this mail because I have been corresponding with Victoria off
> list and she 
> has been most supportive and kind to me; she has just returned
> from a trip 
> and hopefully we are going to meet soon before I depart.
> I welcome her to the list and send my best regards to this
> nice dhamma 
> sister that as it happens I first met through the internet
> brotherhood for 
> which I am grateful as well.
> 
> Love and respect
> Cybele



 
4540 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 8:17pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Thanks, Robert. I was confusing "succession" of mental states with 
"conditioning" of mental states. 

Such a gem of a post! I feel terrible that I can't afford the time to 
give a proper reply, but I do want to make a few comments.

You write:
> Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I
> would like to examine our attitude to it and to the
> Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our
> attitude one that only wants to have "good" dhammas?
> If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think
> weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
> equanimous, compassionate, insightful person.
> Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to
> perfecting this Dhamma idol.
The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When 
consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger, say, the 
best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you described. 
Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to remember 
to be mindful. 

At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an absolute 
fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let him have 
graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were 
advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His 
five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I can't stand 
it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an unpleasant 
sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the sound. 
You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm hearing a 
sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound after 
it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears." Mark 
screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his dinner 
equanimously and peacefully. 

If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can be 
helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly rooted 
dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the dosa with 
something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else fails, suppressing 
is better than expressing. There is some danger in that though, 
because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it is not 
dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing.

> Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no
> matter what? 
Not me!

> If so then remember that hatred
> is another dhamma that arises and should be
> investigated. 
> When hatred arises it is the asavas, the
> tendencies showing themselves.

Do you mean anusaya? I think of asava more as "moral 
intoxicant"--things that are more attractive and pernicious than 
hatred; things like lust and clinging to views that seem so "fun" but 
muddle the thinking so much (like alcohol).

> Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should
> accept it and study it?  If we investigate we 
> see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as "HE
> did that to ME" and "HE is bad". In other words one of
> the co-conditions of hatred is  avijja (ignorance, moha)
> that  is lost in the world of concepts(pannati) (of "he" and
> "me" and "they") . If one can investigate in this way
> one is learning much about the way things work; and
> that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one
> thinks in other ways such as "but in reality there is
> no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those
> aggregates that arose even one second ago have
> completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the
> air?" that there cannot be hatred at the exact same
> moments. And then we might think again, forgetting
> Dhamma, "but HE did that to ME" and see how again
> hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very
> simple example but perhaps it conditions some
> reflection.  We cannot have hatred continually even if
> we want to. There are so many other moments such as
> seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that
> arise too, that can be understood.

Of course.

> Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm
> feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems,
> fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good
> or bad is all only nama and rupa. 
 Of course.

> can support panna and then you may be able to see that
> akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely
> dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be
> understood. 
Of course.

> This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be
> crossed. Once we truly understand that  these powerful
> emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas
> they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them
> with insight they become our friends. 

I think of sati, saddha, panya, samadhi, viriya more as "friends" and 
hatred (anger, etc.) as hindrances. In properly dealing with 
hindrances by cultivating friends, it is the FRIENDS that are the 
friends, not the hindrances. 

Dan

 
4541 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 8:22pm
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing?

 
  Absolutely. That's why we have copyright laws, and that's why Napster 
is being shut down.


> Dan & others
> 
> I'm wondering if there could be a sila aspect here. 
> The skill and labour involved in translating/writing
> and arranging something for publication is something
> that is not given away unconditionally when the work
> is published.  It seems to me appropriate to seek
> approval before publishing another's work on a
> website.
> 
> Jon
> 
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Isn't BPS
> organized quite differently from PTS?
> > After all, what salary 
> > do you suppose Bhikkhu Bodhi gets? And what
> > royalties does Nanamoli 
> > get for his translation work? Is BPS a non-profit? I
> > know their books 
> > seem expensive (but not compared to PTS!), but does
> > the cost cover 
> > much more than the cost of typesetting, printing,
> > and shipping books 
> > with small distributions? 
> > 
> > > p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma
> > resources
> > > on the net, I also think it's important to respect
> > > copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can
> > only
> > > continue to support translation work and produce
> > books
> > > if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet
> > will
> > > encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no
> > idea
> > > about this. I think we have to just respect any
> > > decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to
> > > dipping into texts, but I can see the next
> > generation
> > > will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With
> > the
> > > severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would
> > have
> > > some immediate advantages!~
> > > 
> > > 

 
4542 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Dan,
Really enjoyed your examples. Comments below.
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Thanks, Robert. I was confusing "succession" of mental states
> with 
> "conditioning" of mental states. 
> 
> Such a gem of a post! I feel terrible that I can't afford the
> time to 
> give a proper reply, but I do want to make a few comments.
> 
> The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When 
> consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger,
> say, the 
> best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you
> described. 
> Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to
> remember 
> to be mindful. 
> 
> At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an
> absolute 
> fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let
> him have 
> graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were 
> advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His
> 
> five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I
> can't stand 
> it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an
> unpleasant 
> sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the
> sound. 
> You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm
> hearing a 
> sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound
> after 
> it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears."
> Mark 
> screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his
> dinner 
> equanimously and peacefully. 

Wow- teaching a five-year old the rudiments of satipatthana! I'm
still learning those lessons myself. Thanks.
- I have tried similar with my children. It really does have a
good effect but I find they need to be reminded again and again
and again- just like me. (and just as you said the hard part is
remembering to be mindful).
This actually reminds me of when my eldest daughter Mei-ling
(now 12)was a baby. I tell you it was a shock to the system in
the first few months. In those days I had been used to a quiet,
introspective life and  the demands of a VERY vocal being was
unsettling. That is until I realied that sound was only sound.
Then she became my meditation master and I really appreciated
her reminders. 

> 
> If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can
> be 
> helpful.

I fully agree. I think we shouldn't make rules on this matter.
We have to learn to be flexible and understand our
accumulations. 

 Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly
> rooted 
> dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the
> dosa with 
> something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna).

For sure!

 If all else fails,
> suppressing 
> is better than expressing. There is some danger in that
> though, 
> because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it
> is not 
> dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing.

Right.


> 
> > Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no
> > matter what? 

> Not me!

Hey, isn't modesty a virtue of high order in Buddhism.

> 
> > If so then remember that hatred
> > is another dhamma that arises and should be
> > investigated. 
> > When hatred arises it is the asavas, the
> > tendencies showing themselves.
> 
> Do you mean anusaya? I think of asava more as "moral 
> intoxicant"--things that are more attractive and pernicious
> than 
> hatred; things like lust and clinging to views that seem so
> "fun" but 
> muddle the thinking so much (like alcohol).

You're right, I should have said anusaya. While we're on this
topic:
The asava (intoxicants)are kamasava (sensuous desire),
bhavasava(becoming) ditthasva(wrong view)
ignorance(avijjasava).. At the stage of sotapanna ditthasava is
eradicated, but the other 3 remain.

The anusaya (latent tendencies)are: kamaraganusaya (desire for
sensual pleasure) patighanusaya(aversion), mananusaya(conceit),
dittanusaya(wrong view), vicikicchanusaya(doubt) bhava-raga
anusaya(desire for becoming), avijjaanusaya(ignorance).
 A sotapanna has eliminated wrong view and doubt among this set
of defilements. The visuddhimagga (xxii60)- "it is owing to
their inveteracy that they are called inherent
tendencies(anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for
the arising of greed for sense desire etc. again and again...'
Nina van Gorkom in Cetasikas writes "the latent tendencies are
inveterate, that is they are firmly established for a long time,
obstinate, hard to eradicate."

 Robert


 
4543 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism

 
  Dear Herman and Kom,

>> From: Herman Hofman 
>>
>> I always wonder what the world would like if
>> everyone observed the precept
>> to not take what is not given.

I think this would be a world where the average human life span is 80,000+
years (more below).

>I think the Tipitaka/Commentaries mentioned such a world
>where people perfectly observe the five precepts.  There is
>nothing to be taken because there is no ownership in the
>world: everybody can take anything they want.  However, I
>believe Buddhas aren't born in that world, and are not
>inclined (???) to spread dhamma to such a world (why???).

There is a table in I.B. Horner's translation of the Buddhava.msa,
_Chronicle of  Buddha_, p. xxxii that gives the normal life span of humans
then extant when each of the 25 Buddhas from Diipankara to Gotama arose. I
give just a summary as follows:

9 buddhas - 100,000 year human life spans
8 buddhas - 90,000
1 buddha - 80,000
1 buddha - 70,000
2 buddhas - 60,000
1 buddha - 40,000
1 buddha - 30,000
1 buddha - 20,000
1 buddha - 80-100 (Gotama)

According to DN XXVI, Cakkavatti-siihanaada-sutta, stealing first arose when
the normal life span of humans was 80,000 years or less. So that means at
least 17 of the last 25 buddhas arose in a world where stealing was unknown.
The sutta suggests that the next Buddha, Metteyya, will appear in a world
when the normal human lifespan will be 80,000 years. It takes an
intermediate period (antarakappa) for the human lifespan to decline from
100,000+ years down to 10 and back. 20 such periods make up 1 great aeon. I
think it's generally understood that the current human condition is in a
state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main contributor to the decline
of the human lifespan.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
4544 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim)

 
  Hi Jim,
I enjoyed your post on lifespans and whatnot! I do have a question, 
though.

You wrote: "I think it's generally understood that the current human 
condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main 
contributor to the decline of the human lifespan."
It sure seems like we are in a state of moral decline (esp. in the 
West), but it seems even clearer that human lifespans are increasing. 
Which of these perverted perceptions is the more wrong? Or is it just 
that there is some variation in the correlation? Or are we missing 
some important explanatory variables?

Dan

 
4545 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:10am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? (Robert)

 
  Boy, that bhava-raga anusaya is a difficult one. A number of years 
ago, I didn't think it was quite the problem it is for THIS confluence 
of aggregates. Most of the time it just arises and causes problems, 
but sometimes it is recognized more clearly. 

How's that for a cryptic post?

 
4546 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:14am
Subject: D-L paccaya(Re: Quiz)[Jon]

 
  I can see "bad habits" as anusaya, but what about "good habits"? I'm 
just trying to understand what "habits" and "accumulations" are...


> As Rob said, it is these unwholesome accumulated
> tendencies (anusaya) that condition unwholesome citta
> (mental consciousness).  The mental factor of cetana
> (intention) that accompanies such citta may be of the
> level of unwholesome kamma, or it may not.
> 
> Jon

 
4547 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:23am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Time Scale

 
  Dear Jim,

On the topics of timescale, do you have a table of what the
timescale in the Tipitaka equate to in human years:

kappa:
antarakappa:
asankaya (sp?):

I heard from A. Santi the following definitions:
kappa: if you have a marble the size of 7 cubic kilometers
(1 cubic yoja), use a thin silk rag, wipe the marble every
100 years.  When the marble all disappears, that's 1 kappa.
asankaya: (10^100) 10 to the 100 years.

I believe when you and Roberts say "aeon", it means
asankaya.  It this correct?

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Anderson [mailto:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045176014237146202025149066101130125071026057192]
> The sutta suggests that the next Buddha,
> Metteyya, will appear in a world
> when the normal human lifespan will be 80,000
> years. It takes an
> intermediate period (antarakappa) for the human
> lifespan to decline from
> 100,000+ years down to 10 and back. 20 such
> periods make up 1 great aeon. I
> think it's generally understood that the current
> human condition is in a
> state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main
> contributor to the decline
> of the human lifespan.
>

 
4548 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim)

 
  I loved the post too, thanks jim. 
On dan's question I think 2500 years(since the Buddha died)  is 
a brief moment in terms of an aeon and so there hasn't been
enough time for the decline to show up much yet. As a statistics
pundit, Dan, you probably lecture your students on how dips and
upsurges can obscure a longer trend. Even so there was a monk in
the Buddhas day who lived to be 160 - so the further limits of
human life might already be lower.
NOTE: this is all my PURE speculation. It may be/probably is
misleading.

robert
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Hi Jim,
> I enjoyed your post on lifespans and whatnot! I do have a
> question, 
> though.
> 
> You wrote: "I think it's generally understood that the current
> human 
> condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the
> main 
> contributor to the decline of the human lifespan."
> It sure seems like we are in a state of moral decline (esp. in
> the 
> West), but it seems even clearer that human lifespans are
> increasing. 
> Which of these perverted perceptions is the more wrong? Or is
> it just 
> that there is some variation in the correlation? Or are we
> missing 
> some important explanatory variables?
> 
> Dan
> 




 
4549 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 4:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Time Scale

 
  Dear Kom,

>On the topics of timescale, do you have a table of what the
>timescale in the Tipitaka equate to in human years:
>
>kappa:
>antarakappa:
>asankaya (sp?):

The last one should be asankheyya or asankhyeyya (an incalculable period).

>I heard from A. Santi the following definitions:
>kappa: if you have a marble the size of 7 cubic kilometers
>(1 cubic yoja), use a thin silk rag, wipe the marble every
>100 years.  When the marble all disappears, that's 1 kappa.
>asankaya: (10^100) 10 to the 100 years.

This is similar to the Pabbata-sutta (SN XV.5) but in this sutta it is
rubbing a mountain a yojana in height once every 100 years with a Kasi
cloth. The first 10 suttas of the Anamatagga-samyutta (SN XV) illustrate the
span of a mahaa-kappa which is still longer. My favourite is the next sutta,
the Saasapa-sutta, which takes a container a cubic yojana in capacity filled
to the brim with mustard seeds. A man removes 1 seed every 100 years. The
container would be empty before an aeon runs out. The nice thing about this
sutta is that you could actually calculate in human years how long it would
take to empty the container. You calculate how many mustards fill a litre by
counting the seeds in a level quarter teaspoon (1 tsp = 5ml). Then figure
out how many seeds fill a cubic yojana (1 yojana = 16 kms) based on it and
mutilpy this by a 100. Does anyone have some mustard seeds in their kitchen
cupboard and a quarter teaspoon?

I generally understand the kappa to be the same as a mahaa-kappa. I don't
have anything to go on to figure out how many mahaa-kappas are in an
asankheyya but I have been thinking that the number must very high.

The mahaa-kappa is divided into 4 shorter periods: sa.mva.t.ta,
sa.mva.t.ta..t.thaayii, viva.t.ta, viva.t.ta..t.thaayii (see A ii 142, Vism
XIII.29ff). The Buddha calls them the four incalculables (asankheyya-s) of a
kappa. These incalculables are not the same incalculables as in the phrase
that runs like 'four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons'.

On page 236 of Narada's Manual of Abhidhamma it is stated that there are 3
kinds of kappas: antarakappa, asankheyyakappa, mahaakappa. "The interim
period when the age-limit of human beings rises from 10 to an indefinite
limit then falls to ten again is known as an antara kappa. Such twenty
antara kappas equal one asankheyya kappa . . .". In my previous post I
mentioned that 20 antarakappas = 1 mahaakappa which is incorrect. Also, I
started from the 100,000+ years down to 10 and back which is going in the
opposite direction to the Manual's note on the kappas. So an average length
(in human years) of an antarakappa could be calculated by dividing the
number of mustard seeds in the container by 80 and then mutiplying the
result by 100.

>I believe when you and Roberts say "aeon", it means
>asankaya.  It this correct?

I don't know about Robert, but I generally think of a mahaakappa when just
the word 'kappa' is spoken. And when you say 'asankheyya' I take it that you
mean one of the four periods of a mahaakappa.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
4550 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 5:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim)

 
  Dear Dan,

>You wrote: "I think it's generally understood that the current human
>condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main
>contributor to the decline of the human lifespan."
>It sure seems like we are in a state of moral decline (esp. in the
>West), but it seems even clearer that human lifespans are increasing.
>Which of these perverted perceptions is the more wrong?

According to the sutta (DN XXVI) the human lifespan has been decreasing for
a very long time. It's possible that we've already passed the low point and
are back on the upswing but personally I think this is unlikely and the low
point is still ahead of us. If we were on the upswing wouldn't there be more
optimism about the world's future and a sense that the world is becoming
less and less polluted?

I'm not convinced that human lifespans are increasing over the long run. As
Robert pointed out there was a bhikkhu in the Buddha's time that lived to be
a 160. The commentaries contain information about a number of other monks
living long lifespans of well over 100. I think the illusion of increasing
lifespans in modern times is partly due to the progress of medical science.
There's lots of money to be made by making people live longer & healthier
lives.

I would have to say that the perception of an increasing human lifespan
during the present time is the one that is likely to be perverted if we go
by what it says in the sutta. The perception of moral decline along with the
decline of the human lifespan is supported by the sutta. The increase in
morality along with an increasing lifespan is also supported. Moral decline
along with increasing lifespan is not supported.

>Or is it just that there is some variation in the correlation?

>Or are we missing some important explanatory variables?

Sorry, I don't understand these two questions. Are these statistical
questions?

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
4551 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2001 8:29am
Subject: Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim)

 
  > >Or is it just that there is some variation in the correlation?
Overall, the trend is for human lifespan to decrease as moral decay 
progresses, but are there still some short periods where lifespan 
increases? Is it like the overall trend of the stock market in the 
U.S. which has been up, up, up over the past 80 years, but some days 
it goes down and even some years it goes down.

> >Or are we missing some important explanatory variables?
Perhaps other factors go into human lifespan (like advances in 
medicine or improved food supply or better sanitation or better 
prenatal care or technology easing the demands of 14 hour back 
breaking labor etc.) that counteract the effects of moral decay...

 
4552 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 7:46am
Subject: surfing, statistics and sasana

 
  Dear friends,

We're enjoying catching up in a Sydney internet
cafe...I was reflecting in the surf this morning (the
sea variety) that MAYBE with all the web activity we
can at least help there to be a little upswing or a
minor correction in that very long downward trend of
interest and understanding of the Buddha's
teachings...(even if when viewed as an aeon, it
wouldn't register at all....

Anyway, all we can do is our best to develop more
understanding and help others do the same and not
think or worry too much about the long-term trends and
statistics which we have no control over.

Best wishes and thanks for all the good messages,

Sarah

p.s. Please remember when replying to messages on dsg
to cut off parts which are not relevant. Most of us
forget sometimes, I know.

ANTONY- pls send me yr tel no OFF-LIST to contact re
meet-up 


 
4553 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 9:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] surfing, statistics and sasana

 
  Sarah,

You were in the surf this morning? Ever heard of unpleasant bodily feeling
:-) ???

Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Date: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:17
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] surfing, statistics and sasana


>
>Dear friends,
>
>We're enjoying catching up in a Sydney internet
>cafe...I was reflecting in the surf this morning (the
>sea variety) that MAYBE with all the web activity we
>can at least help there to be a little upswing or a
>minor correction in that very long downward trend of
>interest and understanding of the Buddha's
>teachings...(even if when viewed as an aeon, it
>wouldn't register at all....
>

 
 
4554 From: Chen Hsiongcai   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: The Monthly Harvest Free Buddhist E-Zine

 
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4555 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] surfing, statistics and sasana

 
  Herman,

different moments....actually there were more than a
few of the unpleasant ones when I first 'took the
plunge' and this is interesting because as we have
discussed recently, these cannot be direct object for
lobha and yet the lobha kept me in the water.....so
there were pleasant ones in between and also of course
so many visible objects, sounds, smells and so many,
many concepts to conditon lobha, so that by the time I
came out, I'd forgotten about the unpleasant bodily
feeling.

But this afternoon, on the otherhand, it had turned
really cool, which was no deterrent to Jon's lobha,
but was enough to let the story about unpleasant
bodily feeling win out in my case....

Thanks for the concern!  ;-)

Sarah

--- Herman Hofman  wrote: >
Sarah,
> 
> You were in the surf this morning? Ever heard of
> unpleasant bodily feeling
> :-) ???
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman



 
4556 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] D-L paccaya(Re: Quiz)[Dan]

 
  Dan

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > I can see
"bad habits" as anusaya, but what about
> "good habits"? I'm 
> just trying to understand what "habits" and
> "accumulations" are...

A good question.  A 'habit' is something that we
habitually do, but the reason we do it habitually is
because we have the tendency to do it, ie. we have
'accumulated' that tendency.

For example, the reason why someone, say, loses their
temper easily over a particular situation, and as a
result uses harsh language, must lie in the habits of
the past and the fact that the mental factors which
accompanied those 'habits' have been accumulated in
the citta (moment of consciousness).

It is not only habits of action in the usually
understood sense that are accumulated.  Preferences as
to taste, colour etc are also a manifestation of the
accumulation of past likes and dislikes that, when not
manifest (ie. most of the time), lie dormant in the
citta - hence the term 'latent' tendency.

'Good habits' are similarly accumulated and lying
dormant unless there are conditions for their
manifestation.  They are not, however, called
'anusaya' (I'm not aware of any particlar term for
them).

'Habits' and 'accumulations' can be seen as slightly
different aspects of the same phenomenom.

Jon


 
4557 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:29pm
Subject: Visuddhimagga update

 
  Dear Teng and Group,
I received this letter from venerable Bodhi today.

""Dear Mr. Kirkpatrick,

Thank you for your e-mail. General BPS policy is to allow other 
websites to
put Wheels  and Bodhi Leaves on the Web (with our informed
permission), 
but
not full-size books.
You may use a few pages of  "Path of Purification" for your 
Website""
He then goes on to say that putting several chapters on the web
would go against their policy. 

I readily accept this and have already modified the
Visuddhimagga page on abhidhamma.org  . 
I also much appreciate Teng bringing up the issue, which lead to
me contacting ven. Bodhi earlier than I had intended on this
matter. 
I am still greatly indebted to the kind typist who worked so
long and hard and who allowed me to put it on my site. I hope
this doesn't cause her any embarrassment.
Robert




 
4558 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:39pm
Subject: past wholesome accumulations

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
.

> 
> 'Good habits' are similarly accumulated and lying
> dormant unless there are conditions for their
> manifestation.  They are not, however, called
> 'anusaya' (I'm not aware of any particlar term for
> them).
> 
>
Jon, one of the pali terms for past wholesome accumulations is
'pubbekata punnata'. I don't know if this is a blanket term
covering all wholesome accumulations but it is often used to
indicate meritorious deeds done in the past. 
robert


 
4559 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Herman -
> 
> In a message dated 4/5/01 10:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Herman writes:
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which 
revolved around
> > copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be the 
ownership
> > of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies on 
the notion
> > of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I accept 
that
> > under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, and 
that no
> > state would hesitate to use all means available to it to enforce  
compliance
> > with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self.
> > 
> > My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is wrong 
view.
> > How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the notion 
of
> > ownership.
> > And what a tangled web is copyright.
> > 
> > Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma.
> > Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top  :-) to those who have 
truly
> > renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached.
> > 
> > 
> > Herman
> > 
> > 
> ==============================
>        So there's no self, and there's no ownership. Nonetheless, 
there is a 
> precept against stealing, and theft presupposes ownership. In fact 
there *is* 
> such a thing as ownership, not in an absolute sense, but in a 
conventional 
> and relative one. When you or I work, producing something, it is 
*wrong* for 
> another to take it from us on the grounds that we don't "really" own 
it, and, 
> in fact, "you" and "I" are mere concepts.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard)


Dear all,

I think Kom is right in pointing out the abhisankhara, namely cetana, 
which is chief of all citasika except for vedana and sanna.  In 
relation to ownership and copyright, what is the cetana in 
conventional and paramattha terms?  I think it is a complicated and 
lengthy matter, but my opinion is that in most cases of stealing or 
copyright violation is when in conventional terms one wants to possess 
something that belongs to someone else.  The implication is that the 
owner had acquired it without violating the precepts which allows a 
certain society to function smoothly.  Strong lobha could lead to 
theft, and without the self there could be no lobha.  Which is why in 
certain societies where the precepts are perfectly kept there would be 
no need for any rules.  But then only the sotapanna and upwards keep 
the five precepts naturally and permanently, and they are assured of 
nibbana in the relatively 'near' future.  In fact who owns the 
copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to belong to the Buddha 
and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to all those who study 
it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would desire knowledge.  
Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, prove it for oneself 
and those with panna will be able to experience it', or something to 
that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 
Please excuse my inadequate Pali)?

The only reason that the publishers might want to worry about 
copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that whomever wanted to 
distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to the 
misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who wish to make any 
material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, even power of 
control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the dhamma, is, as 
the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha.  There seems to be 
clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is certainly no one's or 
group's personal property since even by convention the original owner 
certainly took pains to distribute it indiscriminately.  No matter how 
I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, to proclaim 
copyright or ownership for this material in particular,unlike songs 
and books or other intellectual treasure, except in order to check 
that the contents are exactly as the writer of the explanation 
intended, if not the original teacher intended.

From personal experience, people who see the value of the teachings 
will come forward and help with the distribution and expenses 
necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our website for example is 
sponsored by someone who has never asked to be mentioned or to 
advertise the several companies affiliated, (though we might be giving 
them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have confidence that the dhamma 
will be reached given the right conditions, and we should try to help 
as many people to benefit from it as we have as best we can.  This 
does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material 
presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and 
such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help 
with the costs of book printing as they are able.  If the publishers 
wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to 
contribute to the printing of free books it should be their 
prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should really be freely 
distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana again, also 
especially with Nina who has never had a thought about copyright 
gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still witness.  The rest, as 
Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations and the times we 
live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other factors come into 
consideration even in matters of the dhamma.

Just some thoughts,

Amara

 
4560 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 9:20pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  > On the other hand a free book should really be freely 
> distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana again, also 
> especially with Nina who has never had a thought about copyright 
> gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still witness.  


I'm sorry I should have also mentioned Alan and his Zolag; who 
published Nina's beautiful hardcover and other books one can order at 
I am sure lower than cost prices in England, as well as presented the 
first dhamma website with Nina's and the foundation's books.  He also 
kindly helped DhammaStudy.com get started, despite his very busy 
schedule, anumodana in your great kusala, Alan!

Amara

 
4561 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 10:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations

 
  Dear Robert,

Thank you very much for the book: reality and concepts
by SB.
I truly appreciate your kindness and generosity.

metta,
des



 
4562 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 10:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Yes.

metta,
des
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Dear Dan,
> Really enjoyed your examples. Comments below.
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > Thanks, Robert. I was confusing "succession" of
> mental states
> > with 
> > "conditioning" of mental states. 
> > 
> > Such a gem of a post! I feel terrible that I can't
> afford the
> > time to 
> > give a proper reply, but I do want to make a few
> comments.
> > 
> > The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha.
> When 
> > consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as
> in anger,
> > say, the 
> > best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as
> you
> > described. 
> > Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard
> part is to
> > remember 
> > to be mindful. 
> > 
> > At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was
> having an
> > absolute 
> > fit, screaming and screaming because his parents
> wouldn't let
> > him have 
> > graham crackers before eating some real food (the
> g.c.'s were 
> > advertised as containing "Less sugar than most
> cookies!"). His
> > 
> > five-year-old brother started getting pretty
> irritated: "I
> > can't stand 
> > it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There
> is an
> > unpleasant 
> > sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you
> react to the
> > sound. 
> > You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say
> 'Hmmm. I'm
> > hearing a 
> > sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens
> to that sound
> > after 
> > it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes
> my ears."
> > Mark 
> > screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt
> continued his
> > dinner 
> > equanimously and peacefully. 
> 
> Wow- teaching a five-year old the rudiments of
> satipatthana! I'm
> still learning those lessons myself. Thanks.
> - I have tried similar with my children. It really
> does have a
> good effect but I find they need to be reminded
> again and again
> and again- just like me. (and just as you said the
> hard part is
> remembering to be mindful).
> This actually reminds me of when my eldest daughter
> Mei-ling
> (now 12)was a baby. I tell you it was a shock to the
> system in
> the first few months. In those days I had been used
> to a quiet,
> introspective life and  the demands of a VERY vocal
> being was
> unsettling. That is until I realied that sound was
> only sound.
> Then she became my meditation master and I really
> appreciated
> her reminders. 
> 
> > 
> > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> diversion can
> > be 
> > helpful.
> 
> I fully agree. I think we shouldn't make rules on
> this matter.
> We have to learn to be flexible and understand our
> accumulations. 
> 
>  Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly
> > rooted 
> > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to
> replace the
> > dosa with 
> > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna).
> 
> For sure!
> 
>  If all else fails,
> > suppressing 
> > is better than expressing. There is some danger in
> that
> > though, 
> > because suppressing can give added strength to the
> dosa if it
> > is not 
> > dealt with with insight after the initial act of
> suppressing.
> 
> Right.
> 
> 
> > 
> > > Are we keen enough that we will learn about
> Dhamma no
> > > matter what? 
> 
> > Not me!
> 
> Hey, isn't modesty a virtue of high order in
> Buddhism.
> 
> > 
> > > If so then remember that hatred
> > > is another dhamma that arises and should be
> > > investigated. 
> > > When hatred arises it is the asavas, the
> > > tendencies showing themselves.
> > 
> > Do you mean anusaya? I think of asava more as
> "moral 
> > intoxicant"--things that are more attractive and
> pernicious
> > than 
> > hatred; things like lust and clinging to views
> that seem so
> > "fun" but 
> > muddle the thinking so much (like alcohol).
> 
> You're right, I should have said anusaya. While
> we're on this
> topic:
> The asava (intoxicants)are kamasava (sensuous
> desire),
> bhavasava(becoming) ditthasva(wrong view)
> ignorance(avijjasava).. At the stage of sotapanna
> ditthasava is
> eradicated, but the other 3 remain.
> 
> The anusaya (latent tendencies)are: kamaraganusaya
> (desire for
> sensual pleasure) patighanusaya(aversion),
> mananusaya(conceit),
> dittanusaya(wrong view), vicikicchanusaya(doubt)
> bhava-raga
> anusaya(desire for becoming),
> avijjaanusaya(ignorance).
>  A sotapanna has eliminated wrong view and doubt
> among this set
> of defilements. The visuddhimagga (xxii60)- "it is
> owing to
> their inveteracy that they are called inherent
> tendencies(anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as
> cause for
> the arising of greed for sense desire etc. again and
> again...'
> Nina van Gorkom in Cetasikas writes "the latent
> tendencies are
> inveterate, that is they are firmly established for
> a long time,
> obstinate, hard to eradicate."
> 
>  Robert
> 



 
4563 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 10:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits

 
  Thanks Robert. I have a weakness with Pali, and
sometimes English too.

metta,
des
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Thank you Des.
> Another word for habit or accumulation is vassana
> (spelling?).
> Even arahants still have these. So there is the
> example of I
> think mahakaccana who used to jump over puddles in
> an unbecoming
> manner because he had many past lives as a monkey.
> Or another
> arahant who uses to address everyone as 'servant'
> because for so
> many lives he had been a highclass Brahmin. He had
> no bad
> intention, of course.
> Another word for wholesome accumulations from the
> past is
> pubbekata punaatta. 
> The texts often mention accumulations:
> from the therigatha-atthakatha
> Theri Anopama (p178 of transltion by Pruitt)
> "she too performed meritorious deeds under previous
> Buddhas and
> accumulated good in various lives as basis for
> release" (this
> phrase is repeated for many of the Nuns in the
> therigatha.)
> robert
> 
> --- Chiong Desmond  wrote:
> > Dear Dan,
> > I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or
> > unholsome habitual actions.
> > Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four
> > karmas that determine the quality of our next
> > existence.
> > [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action
> > [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate
> action
> > [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual
> actions
> > [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that
> can
> > not be included in the above three.
> > 
> > Hope that clarifies your question a little.
> > 
> > metta,
> > des
> > --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > > Dear Rob, 
> > > You wrote:
> > > 
> > > > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van
> > > Gorkoms
> > > > "conditions:
> > > > We have accumulated both wholesome and
> unwholesome
> > > habits over
> > > > the course of this infinite samsara. By
> > > pakatupanissaya paccaya
> > > > the unwholesome accumulations  condition
> akusala
> > > citta
> > > > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly
> easy
> > > to see.
> > > > However, also  akusala(unwholesome)   can
> > > condition 
> > > > kusala(wholesome) .
> > > 
> > > What is "habit"? 
> > > 



 
4564 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 4/9/01 10:51:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear all,
> 
> I think Kom is right in pointing out the abhisankhara, namely cetana, 
> which is chief of all citasika except for vedana and sanna.  In 
> relation to ownership and copyright, what is the cetana in 
> conventional and paramattha terms?  I think it is a complicated and 
> lengthy matter, but my opinion is that in most cases of stealing or 
> copyright violation is when in conventional terms one wants to possess 
> something that belongs to someone else.  The implication is that the 
> owner had acquired it without violating the precepts which allows a 
> certain society to function smoothly.  Strong lobha could lead to 
> theft, and without the self there could be no lobha.  Which is why in 
> certain societies where the precepts are perfectly kept there would be 
> no need for any rules.  But then only the sotapanna and upwards keep 
> the five precepts naturally and permanently, and they are assured of 
> nibbana in the relatively 'near' future.  In fact who owns the 
> copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to belong to the Buddha 
> and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to all those who study 
> it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would desire knowledge.  
> Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, prove it for oneself 
> and those with panna will be able to experience it', or something to 
> that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 
> Please excuse my inadequate Pali)?
> 
> The only reason that the publishers might want to worry about 
> copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that whomever wanted to 
> distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to the 
> misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who wish to make any 
> material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, even power of 
> control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the dhamma, is, as 
> the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha.  There seems to be 
> clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is certainly no one's or 
> group's personal property since even by convention the original owner 
> certainly took pains to distribute it indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, to proclaim 
> copyright or ownership for this material in particular,unlike songs 
> and books or other intellectual treasure, except in order to check 
> that the contents are exactly as the writer of the explanation 
> intended, if not the original teacher intended.
> 
> From personal experience, people who see the value of the teachings 
> will come forward and help with the distribution and expenses 
> necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our website for example is 
> sponsored by someone who has never asked to be mentioned or to 
> advertise the several companies affiliated, (though we might be giving 
> them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have confidence that the dhamma 
> will be reached given the right conditions, and we should try to help 
> as many people to benefit from it as we have as best we can.  This 
> does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material 
> presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and 
> such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help 
> with the costs of book printing as they are able.  If the publishers 
> wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to 
> contribute to the printing of free books it should be their 
> prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should really be freely 
> distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana again, also 
> especially with Nina who has never had a thought about copyright 
> gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still witness.  The rest, as 
> Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations and the times we 
> live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other factors come into 
> consideration even in matters of the dhamma.
> 
> Just some thoughts,
> 
> Amara
> 
=================================
       The Dhamma is "free" in two senses: (1) The Buddha gave it freely, and 
(2) It is available for all to discover if they "merely" take the appropriate 
steps. However, in another sense, nothing produced by human effort is free 
because it requires that effort for its production, and that very effort is 
the price. The Dhamma can be made available to people only through human 
effort. Often that price is paid as dana by those who do the distributing, 
and frequently, even in the case of not-for-profit companies such as Wisdom 
Publications, the Pali Text Society, and the Buddhist Publication Society, 
the cost/price is shared among the providers and the recipients. If such 
companies didn't have the copyright laws to depend on, there is some 
likelihood that they would have to cut back on their services even to the 
extent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me that 
when an individual or company provides a delivery mechanism for some of the 
Dhamma (e.g., a book, with all the paper, covers, and binding expenses, as 
well as the advertising to make its existence known and the making of it 
available via direct order or through bookstores), value is being created *at 
a price*, and without legal protection for that product, the production of 
such value is seriously endangered.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4565 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  > > This 
> > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material 
> > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and 
> > such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help 
> > with the costs of book printing as they are able.  If the 
publishers 
> > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to 
> > contribute to the printing of free books it should be their 
> > prerogative.  
> =================================
>        The Dhamma is "free" in two senses: (1) The Buddha gave it 
freely, and 
> (2) It is available for all to discover if they "merely" take the 
appropriate 
> steps. However, in another sense, nothing produced by human effort 
is free 
> because it requires that effort for its production, and that very 
effort is 
> the price. The Dhamma can be made available to people only through 
human 
> effort. Often that price is paid as dana by those who do the 
distributing, 
> and frequently, even in the case of not-for-profit companies such as 
Wisdom 
> Publications, the Pali Text Society, and the Buddhist Publication 
Society, 
> the cost/price is shared among the providers and the recipients. If 
such 
> companies didn't have the copyright laws to depend on, there is some 
> likelihood that they would have to cut back on their services even 
to the 
> extent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me 
that 
> when an individual or company provides a delivery mechanism for some 
of the 
> Dhamma (e.g., a book, with all the paper, covers, and binding 
expenses, as 
> well as the advertising to make its existence known and the making 
of it 
> available via direct order or through bookstores), value is being 
created *at 
> a price*, and without legal protection for that product, the 
production of 
> such value is seriously endangered.

Dear Howard,

I think we agree for the most part, as you will have seen rereading 
the excerpt from my message above yours, sorry if I did not convey the 
thought as clearly as I should have, as you did.  I agree with the 
book printing part but not copyrighting on the web, which is almost 
impossible to control anyway, and I do think it is good exposure for 
the book especially long ones like for example the 'Summary' (550pp.) 
which no one had ever heard of until we put it on the website after 
which several people asked how they might obtain the book.  I believe 
several people are like me, though I see the infinite usefulness of 
the web I prefer to have the book form especially if I refer to it 
often.  We differ where I think that if people see how useful the 
dhamma is they will help to keep the production of books as well as 
other forms of distribution going, what is the use of legal protection 
if no one is interested in or even know about the material?  Again I 
think the copyright law has its uses in keeping the printed versions 
as correct and true to the original as possible, too.

Amara

 
4566 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:34am
Subject: Dhammasangani

 
  Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there anywhere? The 
C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest...

 
4567 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:02am
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  > We differ where I think that if people see how useful the 
> dhamma is they will help to keep the production of books as well as 
> other forms of distribution going, what is the use of legal 
protection 
> if no one is interested in or even know about the material?  Again I 
> think the copyright law has its uses in keeping the printed versions 
> as correct and true to the original as possible, too.


Dear all,

I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is the main kamma for 
those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for whatever akusala 
reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma knowledge in 
anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone also.  We can never 
really tell except for our own citta and do the best we can in any 
given situation.  After which it also depends on the vipaka of the 
individual whether, when and where, as well as how they find the 
Buddha's teachings.

Amara

 
4568 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 9:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Hi, Amara -

       You have my apology! I went too quickly through your post, and that 
last paragraph didn't properly register. You are correct when you say that we 
are not so far apart on this issue.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 4/9/01 11:56:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> > > This 
> > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material 
> > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and 
> > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help 
> > > with the costs of book printing as they are able.  If the 
> publishers 
> > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to 
> > > contribute to the printing of free books it should be their 
> > > prerogative.  
> > =================================
> >        The Dhamma is "free" in two senses: (1) The Buddha gave it 
> freely, and 
> > (2) It is available for all to discover if they "merely" take the 
> appropriate 
> > steps. However, in another sense, nothing produced by human effort 
> is free 
> > because it requires that effort for its production, and that very 
> effort is 
> > the price. The Dhamma can be made available to people only through 
> human 
> > effort. Often that price is paid as dana by those who do the 
> distributing, 
> > and frequently, even in the case of not-for-profit companies such as 
> Wisdom 
> > Publications, the Pali Text Society, and the Buddhist Publication 
> Society, 
> > the cost/price is shared among the providers and the recipients. If 
> such 
> > companies didn't have the copyright laws to depend on, there is some 
> > likelihood that they would have to cut back on their services even 
> to the 
> > extent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me 
> that 
> > when an individual or company provides a delivery mechanism for some 
> of the 
> > Dhamma (e.g., a book, with all the paper, covers, and binding 
> expenses, as 
> > well as the advertising to make its existence known and the making 
> of it 
> > available via direct order or through bookstores), value is being 
> created *at 
> > a price*, and without legal protection for that product, the 
> production of 
> > such value is seriously endangered.
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> I think we agree for the most part, as you will have seen rereading 
> the excerpt from my message above yours, sorry if I did not convey the 
> thought as clearly as I should have, as you did.  I agree with the 
> book printing part but not copyrighting on the web, which is almost 
> impossible to control anyway, and I do think it is good exposure for 
> the book especially long ones like for example the 'Summary' (550pp.) 
> which no one had ever heard of until we put it on the website after 
> which several people asked how they might obtain the book.  I believe 
> several people are like me, though I see the infinite usefulness of 
> the web I prefer to have the book form especially if I refer to it 
> often.  We differ where I think that if people see how useful the 
> dhamma is they will help to keep the production of books as well as 
> other forms of distribution going, what is the use of legal protection 
> if no one is interested in or even know about the material?  Again I 
> think the copyright law has its uses in keeping the printed versions 
> as correct and true to the original as possible, too.
> 
> Amara
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
 
4569 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:43am
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  Dear Howard,

It's quite all right, happens to me all the time!  

I'm glad we agree on some things, although arguments can be kind of 
fun, too,

Amara

Signing off for a few more days- bye for now,

A.

 
4570 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits

 
  Dear Rob,

I thought it might interest you.

Ten kinds of Vipassana nana:

1- Sammasana nana: Realization of Annicca, dukkha, annata in mind and matter
2- Udayabbhaya nana: Realization of the beginning and end of Arammana
3- Bhanga nana: After being aware of the disappearance of an arammana, 
second mind is aware of the disappearnace of the first mind
[I call this the 2nd mind observing back the 1st mind; and some people have 
qusetioned my nana on this; I will explain at some later time]
4- Baya nana: becoming frightful from the realization that both the knowing 
mind and the sense objects are all passing away
5- Adinava nana: Realization that everything in nature is faulty and 
defective, because they all dissolve so rapidly
6- Nibbida nana: Increasing awareness of the unattractiveness and boringness 
of the things of nature
7- Muncitukamyata nana: Increasing awareness of looking forward to escape 
from the sufferings of the nature
8- Ptisankha nana: a cautious contemplation is made with utmost anxiousness 
for escape from suffering with an increased re-realization of anicca, dukkha 
and annata
9- Sankuharupekkha nana: the prior contemplation [8] becomes strengthened, 
automatic, and proceeds on its own like a machine; it proceeds with 
equanimity
10- Anuloma nana: while such realization is going on automaticlly with 
equanimity, the speed at which the new knowledge is gained goes on fast and 
active and the new knowledge advances with a big rush towards a noble path 
known as " Vutthana-magga"; the whole process is called, "Vutthana'gamini 
vipassana nana"
This special knowledge that appears with the realization that physical and 
mental phenomena which occurs at the six sense-doors momentarily are 
impermanent, suffering and not self [annatta].
Th eknowledge that arises at the last moment is "Anuloma nana" which 
consists of three javanas, impulse moments, called:
- parikamma [preparation]
- upacara [aaproach]
- anuloma [adaptation

Anuloma nana transforms mind to become qualified to enter the threshold of 
Nirvana.

Anumordana,

metta,
des


>From: Fierke 
>Subject: Re: [Triplegem] Re: kinds of wisdom!
>Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:09:25 -0400
>
>Please do.
>Thank you and kindest regards.
>
>Chiong Desmond wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the information.
> >
> > A successful vipassana meditation can lead one to
> > attain ten kinds of wisdom called vipassana nana.
> > I can expand on the ten kinds of wisdom if anyone is
> > interested.
> >
> > metta,
> > des
> > --- Soe wrote:
> > > Dear Des,
> > >
> > > There are two kinds of wisdom and two kinds of
> > > meditations. For
> > > samatha meditation it is for worldly wisdom and
> > > knowledge. When we
> > > study, if we read the books again and again(in some
> > > case, with the
> > > outside help), we will understand the worldly
> > > knowledge and worldly
> > > wisdom. The basic need is concentration.
> > >
> > > For vipassana meditation, it is for liberation and
> > > for wisdom of
> > > liberation. It is not the same as samatha meditation
> > > or worldly
> > > wisdom. The basic need is mindfulness.
> > >
> > > With the samatha concentration, we can get worldy
> > > knowledge. It will
> > > always be followed by science. But, new and more
> > > advanced experiment
> > > will shape the old scientific findings and we will
> > > become more
> > > accurate about the things we study.
> > >
> > > For the vipassana mindfulness, I don't know details
> > > that much. But,
> > > its wisdom is for liberation.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Soe K. Thu.
> > >


>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits
>Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Thank you num. I have never have been good at names.
>rob
>--- Num wrote:
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > I think you mean Ven.Sariputta, who liked to jump across the
> > canal instead of
> > using a bridge when he led monks on alms round. He also liked
> > to hang his
> > umbrella at the top of the tree not at the ground level.  Some
> > people asked
> > the Buddha, was Ven.Sariputta really an arahant with those
> > peculiar habits.
> > The Buddha confirmed that he was but b/c he had taken many
> > lifetimes as a
> > monkey in the past so some engrained habits were still there.
> >
> > Regarding habits, I still cannot come up with clear answer.
> > As I read Nina's
> > writing on Paccaya, she mentioned Chanda cetasika in
> > (sahajata)-adhipathi-paccaya, she said that "lobha is attached
> > to the object
> > it experiences, but it cannot accomplish it enterprise, it's
> > is not a
> > predominant factor. Chanda, zeal or wish to do, which
> > accompanies
> > lobha-mula-citta can be predominant factor in accomplishment
> > of one's
> > undertaking, " Chanda and viriya can be predominant in the
> > accomplishment
> > both in wholesome and unwholesome way.  Then she talked about
> > arammanadhipati-paccaya, she said that 2 dosa-mula-citta, 2
> > moha-mula-citta
> > and dhkkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati b/c they are
> > not desirable
> > realities.
> >
> >
>
>


 
4571 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Hope you will forgive for disagreeing.
My humble apologies.

metta,
des
--- Amara  wrote:
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> It's quite all right, happens to me all the time!  
> 
> I'm glad we agree on some things, although arguments
> can be kind of 
> fun, too,
> 
> Amara
> 
> Signing off for a few more days- bye for now,
> 
> A.
> 



 
4572 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammasangani

 
  Dear dan,
There is a burmese one which I have been thinking of ordering .
I'll try to find details in the next few days.
robert
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there
> anywhere? The 
> C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest...
> 



 
4573 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:36am
Subject: Re: Dhammasangani

 
  I must say, Robert, that my Pali is MUCH better than my Burmese! If 
you are talking about a good translation into English, by all means 
let me know some details.

Thanks.

Dan


> Dear dan,
> There is a burmese one which I have been thinking of ordering .
> I'll try to find details in the next few days.
> robert
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there
> > anywhere? The 
> > C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest...
> > 

 
4574 From: Antony 
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:56am
Subject: Meeting the members

 
  Hello list

I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They are 
here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. 

Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and sounding.  I 
met them infront of Sydney Town Hall. A very popular meeting spot, 
usually, but today the steps, normally crowded with people, were 
taped off due to some event occuring inside. It was probably a good 
thing because I was the only one standing around so I was easy to 
meet.

We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the strange 
behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list, particularly 
ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are much 
stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our discussion.

You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with Dharma 
sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal of 
things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the things 
that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others who are 
clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma.

Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not 
untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I say this 
so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more likely 
your perception than the intended reality. I am sure I am more 
capable of offending you. If you like to test me see me off line... 
only joking.

I took J and S to my favourite bookshop, not far from the coffee shop 
we were at. This is the Adyar bookshop. It is owned by the 
Theosophical Society and have a fairly good Buddhist section. I have 
bought some good books there. I showed them the next item on my plan 
which is the Conze translation of the Larger MahaprajnaParamita 
sutra. Both S and J agreed it would be good for me to post large 
tracts from this sutra for the enjoyment of everyone here. Only 
joking those of you who are shaking in your philosophical booties. 
But I might mention it when appropriate. You know it is thought by 
some to be the first sutra committed to writing. possibly before the 
end of the millenium that Buddha lived in. That means BC or BCE to 
you and me. That's pretty amazing if it's true. Anyone know when the 
Asokan Pillars were erected? I think that was BC and they had the 
words of the Buddha chiselled into them didn't they?

Anyway I know I am bordering on the unpostable and off topicness with 
this post But I thought it would at least be interesting to some. And 
I asked a question or two and mentioned the Dharma in an appropriate 
way so as to fall at least with a foot or a leg within the rules of 
posting.

I haven't posted for a while but I read everyone elses posts 
regularly. After meeting Sarah and Jonathon I felt inspired to post 
something, so here I am posting it. May this post find you well, in 
your breathing in and in your breathing out.

Antony

Sydney Australia

 
4575 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhammasangani

 
  Dan,
I'm disappointed, no Burmese language skills! 
Fortunately the book is in English:
I just checked on Barnes and Noble
It is translated by U kyaw Kine - 2volumes- at $96, available
from their 'hard to get' store. But I think a cheaper set will
be around somewhere (I'm sure not buying at that price). I
haven't seen the translation so don't how much of an improvement
it is over Davids work.
Robert
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> I must say, Robert, that my Pali is MUCH better than my
> Burmese! If 
> you are talking about a good translation into English, by all
> means 
> let me know some details.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> > Dear dan,
> > There is a burmese one which I have been thinking of
> ordering .
> > I'll try to find details in the next few days.
> > robert
> > --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > > Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there
> > > anywhere? The 
> > > C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest...
> > > 
> > > 


 
4576 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Dear Antony,
Your post made me laugh. Glad to hear you found Sarah and jon
normal enough. I think so too. 
The asoka pillars were erected about 240 years after the buddhas
death i.e two and a half centuries before christ.
They are  archaeological evidence for the veracity of the pali
texts we have today. It was a surprise to oriental researchers
when they deciphered some of the pillars and found that the
quotes which claimed to come from the Tipitaka were word for
word the same as those sections on the palm leaves in sri lanka
that other researchers were translating. The pillars are
wonderful to look at - I saw some on my india trip. 
robert
--- Antony wrote:
> 
> 
> Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and
> sounding.  

.

> We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the
> strange 
> behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list,
> particularly 
> ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are
> much 
> stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our
> discussion.
> 
> You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with
> Dharma 
> sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal
> of 
> things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the
> things 
> that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others
> who are 
> clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma.
> 
> Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not 
> untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I
> say this 
> so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more
> likely 
> your perception than the intended reality. 


 
4577 From: Herman 
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Meeting the members

 
  Hi all,

Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the national 
competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta. 

Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to speak 
Pali :-)

Herman

--- Antony wrote:
> Hello list
> 
> I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They 
are 
> here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. 
>

 
4578 From: mike nease 
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Hello, Wynn,

--- wynn  wrote:

> Why does it take at least 7 days to be enlighten?
> Why 7?

You like interesting questions--here are a few for you:

What's the difference between seven days and enlightenment?  Aren't 
these both just ideas in your head?  Liking and disliking, even of 
enlightenment and delusion--aren't these unskilled states, obstacles 
to enlightenment?  When do unskilled states and enlightenment occur?  
Isn't it only in the present moment?  What leads to the going down of 
unskilled states already arisen, the non-arising of unskilled states 
as yet unarisen, the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen and 
the continuation, development and perfection of skilled states 
already arisen ('enlightenment')?  Isn't it just understanding?  What 
leads to the arising of understanding?  Isn't it (1) hearing the 
truth as taught by a Buddha, and (2) insight into the present moment?

If you can perfectly understand what's arising and subsiding in the 
present moment, do you even have to wait seven days?  If you don't 
understand what's arising and subsiding in the present moment, will 
seven billion aeons be enough?

Hope you find these questions useful.

mike

 
4579 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammasangani

 
  Yes ther is a Dhammasangani by U Kyaw Khine.
I will send the book to you, and bill you[with 10% discount], if you like.
Visit the web:

www.dbcbuddhistbookstore.com/

if you are interested in looking for more.

metta,
des

p.s.[Lidia -cc- is my secretary who can take care of the shipping for you]



>From: "Dan Dalthorp" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammasangani
>Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:34:39 -0000
>
>Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there anywhere? The
>C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest...
>


 
4580 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members

 
  That is interesting. I wonder where it came from. You know the
commentaries claim that Pali- or a dialect of it- is the oldest
language in the world. In maori they have the word mana- which
means pride. It has a positive connotation.
robert
--- Herman wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the
> national 
> competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta. 
> 
> Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to
> speak 
> Pali :-)
> 
> Herman
> 
> --- Antony wrote:
> > Hello list
> > 
> > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon.
> They 
> are 
> > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live
> here. 
> > 



 
4581 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations

 
  Dear des,
Thank you also for your posts. And nice to see your Buddhist
Bookstore. 
robert
--- Chiong Desmond  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Thank you very much for the book: reality and concepts
> by SB.
> I truly appreciate your kindness and generosity.
> 
> metta,
> des
> --- 


 
4582 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations

 
  Dear Robert,

Please give me your address, and email to <lidia @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=125128020150082031015199065056124253239105139218183041>

I will send you the book "Dhammasangani" by U Kyaw Khine [in English],

free of charge.

metta,
des


>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations
>Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear des,
>Thank you also for your posts. And nice to see your Buddhist
>Bookstore.
>robert
>--- Chiong Desmond  wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> >
> > Thank you very much for the book: reality and concepts
> > by SB.
> > I truly appreciate your kindness and generosity.
> >
> > metta,
> > des
> > ---


 
4583 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations

 
  Des,
What can I say. This is a most sublime gift- the first book of
the Abhidhamma. Of course I accept with great pleasure.
Thank you so much
Robert 

--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Please give me your address, and email to <lidia @
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=125128020150082031015199065056124253239105139218183041>
> 
> I will send you the book "Dhammasangani" by U Kyaw Khine [in
> English],
> 
> free of charge.
> 
> metta,
> des
> 
> 



 
4584 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations

 
  Dear Rob,
You are welcome.
Don't forget to send the address to Lidia.

metta,
des


>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations
>Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Des,
>What can I say. This is a most sublime gift- the first book of
>the Abhidhamma. Of course I accept with great pleasure.
>Thank you so much
>Robert
>
>--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> >
> > Please give me your address, and email to <lidia @
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=125128020150082031015199065056124253239105139218183041>
> >
> > I will send you the book "Dhammasangani" by U Kyaw Khine [in
> > English],
> >
> > free of charge.
> >
> > metta,
> > des
> >


 
4585 From: Alex T 
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:47am
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Mike,

   It's good to see you back.  

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
4586 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Alex,

It always good to know you are around "watching".
Let me share with you a saying from TAO.

TAO says:

When one speaks the truth or something good:
1/3 of the people appreciate it
1/3 of the people just don't care one way or another
1/3 of the people roll on the floor and laugh their heads off

While we are serious in pursuing the truth, let's not be blinded by some 
humor.

metta,
des


>From: Alex T
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten
>Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:47:31 -0000
>
>Dear Mike,
>
>    It's good to see you back.
>
>Anumodana,
>Alex Tran
>


 
4587 From: Herman Hofman   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members

 
  Robert,

Apparently, Parramatta is an aboriginal word meaning "place where the eels
lie" or "head of the river"

Kind Regards


Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 22:35
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members


>That is interesting. I wonder where it came from. You know the
>commentaries claim that Pali- or a dialect of it- is the oldest
>language in the world. In maori they have the word mana- which
>means pride. It has a positive connotation.
>robert
>--- Herman wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the
>> national
>> competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta.
>>
>> Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to
>> speak
>> Pali :-)
>>
>> Herman
>>
>> --- Antony wrote:
>> > Hello list
>> >
>> > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon.
>> They
>> are
>> > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live
>> here.
>> >


 
4588 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Hello list too,

I suppose there is much worse than 'normal loking and
sounding'...Antony had been given all sorts of
warnings from friends about meeting 'internet friends'
and it had been suggested to him that we should meet
in a VERY PUBLIC place....so probably we had to seem
pretty normal after that!

We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of
bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality
that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day
with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and
efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go
which made it all easy....(Actually, Rob, when I first
rang him, he rather reminded me of you!) 

Enjoyed chatting about dhamma at the present moment,
different accumulations, meditation, TNH and other
religions, the good quality of this list (and Antony
is obviously a list expert), work and colleagues and
dhamma and books, to name some areas covered. There
was much more agreement than disagreement.

And yes, it's a super bookstore with quite a few
Tipitaka translations (3 different translations of
Digha Nikaya for a start!). Antony had bought his copy
of Visuddhimagga here at an unbelievable reasonable
price.

Look f/w to seeing you next time, Antony, and please
post all those drafts! We like hearing from you and
now we have a face to go with them.

Back to the surf today! Back to Hong Kong on Sunday.

Best regards,
Sarah

p.s. Antony- I think your interest, study and
consideration of dhamma and religions in general is
very OUT OF the normal. Thank you for sharing it with
us. Herman, p'haps you can come down to join us next
time! Azita, it would be super to see you again too.

--- Antony wrote: > Hello list
> 
> I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and
> Jonathon. They are 
> here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I
> live here. 
> 
> Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking
> and sounding.  


 
4589 From: Alex T 
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 6:35pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  --- "Desmond Chiong"  
wrote:
> Dear Alex,

   Dear Des,

> It always good to know you are around "watching".

   I'm operated in the lurking mode for now!  It's good to read you 
posts in this Group and others, too.

> Let me share with you a saying from TAO.

   You have my total attention.

> TAO says:
> 
> When one speaks the truth or something good:
> 1/3 of the people appreciate it
> 1/3 of the people just don't care one way or another
> 1/3 of the people roll on the floor and laugh their heads off

   I appreciate this saying very much.  Hopefully, I belong to the 
first 1/3.  Thank you.
 
> While we are serious in pursuing the truth, let's not be blinded by 
> some humor.

   Thank you.  I've always enjoyed your thoughtful and compassionate 
posts.  I've learned a lot from yours and others'.  It makes me 
appreciates the internet more and more.
 
> metta,
> des

With Metta and Appreciation,
Alex

 
4590 From: Jain History   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:07pm
Subject: Bhagwan Mahavira and Goutam Buddha

 
  Dear Friends,
Jai Jinendra!

This is 2600th year of birth of Bhagwan Mahavir.

Both Mahavira  and Goutam Buddha were from Shramn tradition of ancient 
India. There mission was of same type, i.e.to open the doors of religion to 
everybody and to protest the vedic invansion  to protest animal sacrifice in 
the name of religion, . Both of them lived in same period i.e. 6th century 
BCE and in same area i.e. Magadh, Bihar in India. One or two of their 
Chaturmas ( 4months of the rainy season) were at same town.

But they did not  meet each other.Why? Or   we do not know about  it?

If you know anything about conections between Mahavir and Goutam Buddh, 
jains and buddhists etc. please let me know. Please send me the details on 
following address:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045166020185042132090057065148100165094145149034234099031150166091061

Please also visit my website at:

http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/

Thanks!

Mahavir Sanglikar

 
4591 From: wynn   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:14pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Hi Mike,

Thanks for your answer and I agree with you but the Satipatthana Sutta says
7.
This is what I don't understand?

Thank you.

 
4592 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Wyn,
Do you know the 4 types of individual:
) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta, mogallana, Khema and
Bahiya who can attain even before a short discourse has
finished. 
 
(2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more details and it takes
longer to attain.

Both of the above types of individuals no longer exist.
Anyone for the last thousand years(or there abouts) is either 

(3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and could attain
during this life, perhaps, if they practise correctly in
accordance with the satipatthana sutta.
 
(4) A Padaparama : 
 Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen to many details
and apply themselves correctly and diligently make the
conditions for release in the next life or some future life
after that.

The commentary to the Satipatthana sutta notes (about the seven
days):

"But concerning the person of keen intelligence it was stated as
follows: Instructed in the morning, he will attain in the
evening; instructed in the evening, he will attain in the
morning. "


Robert


> 
> Thanks for your answer and I agree with you but the
> Satipatthana Sutta says
> 7.
> This is what I don't understand?
> 
> Thank you.
> 



 
4593 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Hello Again, Wynn,

"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of
reference in this way for seven years, one of two
fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right
here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of
clinging-sustenance -- non-return. 

...

"If anyone would develop these four frames of
reference in this way for seven days, one of two
fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right
here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of
clinging-sustenance -- non-return."

If I understand it correctly, the sutta doesn't say
that it takes 'at least' seven days--here I think the
Buddha just uses 'seven days' (vs. seven years)
somewhat arbitrarily to emphasize the efficacy of
satipatthana vipassana bhavana.  Does he also mean, in
the first line cited above, that it takes 'at the
most', seven years?  I don't think so...  

In fact, though I can't cite one off the top of my
head, I believe there are many instances of ordained
and laypeople attaining various stages of
enlightenment immediately on hearing the Buddha
speak--also due to insight--with no 'seven-day waiting
period'...

Of course this all begs the question of all these
people's attainments in prior existences to the one in
which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact, it
does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
accumulated defilements.  How much time has already
been spent in the past?  Not something we puthujanas
can know, is it?

Are you familiar with the simile of the adze handle?

"Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice
sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle
of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle
wore down this much, or yesterday it wore down that
much, or the day before yesterday it wore down this
much,' still he knows it is worn through when it is
worn through. In the same way, when a monk dwells
devoting himself to development, he does not know,
'Today my effluents wore down this much, or yesterday
they wore down that much, or the day before yesterday
they wore down this much,' still he knows they are
worn through when they are worn through." 

Samyutta Nikaya XXII.101
Nava Sutta
The Ship

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html

mike

--- wynn  wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> 
> Thanks for your answer and I agree with you but the
> Satipatthana Sutta says
> 7.
> This is what I don't understand?
> 
> Thank you.
> 



 
4594 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members

 
  Ok - well 'where the eels lie' is a bit of a stretch if there is
any pali basis for any aboriginal words. Head of river? I guess
not also .
robert
--- Herman Hofman  wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> Apparently, Parramatta is an aboriginal word meaning "place
> where the eels
> lie" or "head of the river"
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
> Date: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 22:35
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members
> 
> 
> >That is interesting. I wonder where it came from. You know
> the
> >commentaries claim that Pali- or a dialect of it- is the
> oldest
> >language in the world. In maori they have the word mana-
> which
> >means pride. It has a positive connotation.
> >robert
> >--- Herman wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the
> >> national
> >> competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta.
> >>
> >> Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to
> >> speak
> >> Pali :-)
> >>
> >> Herman
> >>
> >> --- Antony wrote:
> >> > Hello list
> >> >
> >> > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and
> Jonathon.
> >> They
> >> are
> >> > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live
> >> here.
> >> >



 
4595 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Thank you Mike,
Always much appreciate your input.
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > > 
> If I understand it correctly, the sutta doesn't say
> that it takes 'at least' seven days--here I think the
> Buddha just uses 'seven days' (vs. seven years)
> somewhat arbitrarily to emphasize the efficacy of
> satipatthana vipassana bhavana.  Does he also mean, in
> the first line cited above, that it takes 'at the
> most', seven years?  I don't think so...  
> 
> In fact, though I can't cite one off the top of my
> head, I believe there are many instances of ordained
> and laypeople attaining various stages of
> enlightenment immediately on hearing the Buddha
> speak--also due to insight--with no 'seven-day waiting
> period'...
> 
> Of course this all begs the question of all these
> people's attainments in prior existences to the one in
> which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact, it
> does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> accumulated defilements.  How much time has already
> been spent in the past?  Not something we puthujanas
> can know, is it?
> 
> Are you familiar with the simile of the adze handle?
> 
> "Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice
> sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle
> of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle
> 


 
4596 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Roberts,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta,
> mogallana, Khema and
> Bahiya who can attain even before a short discourse has
> finished.
>
> (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more
> details and it takes
> longer to attain.
>
> Both of the above types of individuals no longer exist.
> Anyone for the last thousand years(or there
> abouts) is either
>
> (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and
> could attain
> during this life, perhaps, if they practise correctly in
> accordance with the satipatthana sutta.
>
> (4) A Padaparama :
>  Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen
> to many details
> and apply themselves correctly and diligently make the
> conditions for release in the next life or some
> future life
> after that.

Do you know what the source that mentioned the thousand year
limitation?

kom

 
4597 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 10:22pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  According to Ledi Sayadaw:

1- there are those that attain enlightenment by
hearing the dharma directly form the buddha
2- those that attain enlightenment that hear the
dharma from someone else
3- those that attain enlightenment through practice
after hearing or learning the dharma
4- and those that will accumulate the good karma
during this life time for hearing, learning and
practising the dharma.

metta,
des




--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Roberts,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta,
> > mogallana, Khema and
> > Bahiya who can attain even before a short
> discourse has
> > finished.
> >
> > (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more
> > details and it takes
> > longer to attain.
> >
> > Both of the above types of individuals no longer
> exist.
> > Anyone for the last thousand years(or there
> > abouts) is either
> >
> > (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and
> > could attain
> > during this life, perhaps, if they practise
> correctly in
> > accordance with the satipatthana sutta.
> >
> > (4) A Padaparama :
> >  Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen
> > to many details
> > and apply themselves correctly and diligently make
> the
> > conditions for release in the next life or some
> > future life
> > after that.
> 
> Do you know what the source that mentioned the
> thousand year
> limitation?
> 
> kom
> 



 
4598 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 10:59pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  dear Kom,
Very hard to find references to this. It might be even more than
a thousand years since the first two types died out. The
following are somewaht related.

In the commentary to the vinaya under the Chullavagga, they
predict about 1,000 years for each of the following (this is
where the Buddha said because woman were admitted to the order
it will last only 500 years - but by setting the 8 special rules
this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the commentary
explains): 
(a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have special powers) b)
Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e)
Sotapanna. 
The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly
different way of classification. 

So these predictions are fairly approximate but they give us
some indication of what to expect. 
This is a very short sasana (because of the extreme briefness of
human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go on for much
longer.
robert


--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Roberts,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta,
> > mogallana, Khema and
> > Bahiya who can attain even before a short discourse has
> > finished.
> >
> > (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more
> > details and it takes
> > longer to attain.
> >
> > Both of the above types of individuals no longer exist.
> > Anyone for the last thousand years(or there
> > abouts) is either
> >
> > (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and
> > could attain
> > during this life, perhaps, if they practise correctly in
> > accordance with the satipatthana sutta.
> >
> > (4) A Padaparama :
> >  Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen
> > to many details
> > and apply themselves correctly and diligently make the
> > conditions for release in the next life or some
> > future life
> > after that.
> 
> Do you know what the source that mentioned the thousand year
> limitation?
> 
> kom
> 


 
4599 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  Dear Roberts,

Thanks for looking this up.  I have heard the story about
the possible level of attainment of Patisambhida arahants,
Sukkhavipassaka arahants, Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna
before (approximately 1000 years each after the Buddha).
According to this approximation, Anagami attainment is still
possible in our (Buddha) millenium.  I have also heard the
debate why this seems to be at odd with the other saying
that attainment will always be possible as long as the magga
is still practiced.

I only heard from you the first time that there is no longer
Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu and was hoping that there are
more to this story.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> [mailto:Robert Kirkpatrick]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:00 AM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,
>
>
> dear Kom,
> Very hard to find references to this. It might be
> even more than
> a thousand years since the first two types died out. The
> following are somewaht related.
>
> In the commentary to the vinaya under the
> Chullavagga, they
> predict about 1,000 years for each of the
> following (this is
> where the Buddha said because woman were admitted
> to the order
> it will last only 500 years - but by setting the
> 8 special rules
> this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the
> commentary
> explains):
> (a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have
> special powers) b)
> Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e)
> Sotapanna.
> The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly
> different way of classification.
>
> So these predictions are fairly approximate but
> they give us
> some indication of what to expect.
> This is a very short sasana (because of the
> extreme briefness of
> human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go
> on for much
> longer.
> robert

 
4600 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:55pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  Right, understood. There must be a tika or commentary where it
says that only neyya and padaparama exist now (because I have
heard it said so many times by reputed authorities). It seems to
agree with what we see: who can attain easily just by hearing a
few details at these times? 

It must be that the dates are only approximations because in
other parts of the tipitaka it explains different causes for the
decline of the sasana. If those causes are missing the life will
be extended; or if they are  strong shortened. And we play a
part in this - if we learn, discuss and apply the Dhamma
correctly we firm up the sasana; and vice versa.
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Roberts,
> 
> Thanks for looking this up.  I have heard the story about
> the possible level of attainment of Patisambhida arahants,
> Sukkhavipassaka arahants, Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna
> before (approximately 1000 years each after the Buddha).
> According to this approximation, Anagami attainment is still
> possible in our (Buddha) millenium.  I have also heard the
> debate why this seems to be at odd with the other saying
> that attainment will always be possible as long as the magga
> is still practiced.
> 
> I only heard from you the first time that there is no longer
> Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu and was hoping that there are
> more to this story.
> 
> kom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > [mailto:Robert Kirkpatrick]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:00 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,
> >
> >
> > dear Kom,
> > Very hard to find references to this. It might be
> > even more than
> > a thousand years since the first two types died out. The
> > following are somewaht related.
> >
> > In the commentary to the vinaya under the
> > Chullavagga, they
> > predict about 1,000 years for each of the
> > following (this is
> > where the Buddha said because woman were admitted
> > to the order
> > it will last only 500 years - but by setting the
> > 8 special rules
> > this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the
> > commentary
> > explains):
> > (a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have
> > special powers) b)
> > Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e)
> > Sotapanna.
> > The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly
> > different way of classification.
> >
> > So these predictions are fairly approximate but
> > they give us
> > some indication of what to expect.
> > This is a very short sasana (because of the
> > extreme briefness of
> > human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go
> > on for much
> > longer.
> > robert
> 



 
4601 From: Num 
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 3:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  Hi,

I don't know is this relevant to the post or not but in the Tipitaka it was 
mentioned many times about the 500 quantities of things, animals, men, women. 
Like 500 bhikku followed the Budhha, 500 became arahants.  500 robbers, 500 
brahmins, 500 cows or goats.  Someone told me that 500 is an Indian idiom of 
"numerous."  It doesn't mean  500 literately, it's just a metaphor.  I am not 
sure about 7.

This is what I've heard, no confirmation, sorry.

Have to run to do sth again. 

Until later,

Num



 
4602 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:04am
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:

> Of course this all begs the question of all these
> people's attainments in prior existences to the one in
> which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact, it
> does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> accumulated defilements.  How much time has already
> been spent in the past?

Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What happens 
in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a previous 
lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that each lifetime 
will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same 
way as the first time? Or do people go through an entire lifetime and 
perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born with 
right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? Does 
anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is 
because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one were 
ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may have had 
right view in the previus one.

 
4603 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Erik,
The commentaries do discuss this. A few points:
One born again as a human who was sotapanna in last life  could
never even kill an ant or break any precepts. 
Interestingly although it is theoretically possible to be born
human again, all the cases in the tipitaka of those who attain
sotappana are reborn in deva realms - as far as I know. So it
seems that it would be very unusual if a sotapanna was reborn as
a human.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> 
> > Of course this all begs the question of all these
> > people's attainments in prior existences to the one in
> > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> > days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact, it
> > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> > accumulated defilements.  How much time has already
> > been spent in the past?
> 
> Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What
> happens 
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a
> previous 
> lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that each
> lifetime 
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in
> the same 
> way as the first time? Or do people go through an entire
> lifetime and 
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born
> with 
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth?
> Does 
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is
> 
> because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one
> were 
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may
> have had 
> right view in the previus one.
> 



 
4604 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 0:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Amara

> I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> the main kamma for 
> those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> whatever akusala 
> reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> knowledge in 
> anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> also.  We can never 
> really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> we can in any 
> given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> vipaka of the 
> individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> they find the 
> Buddha's teachings.

I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
dhamma for distribution through normal publication
(ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
perhaps that those who support free distribution must
be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
offered for sale.

There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
established distribution channels a wider audience can
be reached than would be possible by free
distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
also available for free distribution (for obvious
reasons).  

The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

Jon


 
4605 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Amara and all

Just a couple of technical points on copyright.

> In fact
> who owns the 
> copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to
> belong to the Buddha 
> and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to
> all those who study 
> it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would
> desire knowledge.  
> Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it,
> prove it for oneself 
> and those with panna will be able to experience it',
> or something to 
> that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko,
> paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 

There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I
know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should
be).  

Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the
author of the work.  So a person who, for example,
translates from one language into another, or who
writes his own version of something, can assert his
right to benefit from the use of that work.  This is a
right that runs for a limited number of years and then
expires.  It is intended to encourage people to
publish their works, in the knowledge that they can
benefit from others' use of their work.  Of course,
anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow
others to copy freely.

Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of
their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their
copyright), but they must take account of commercial
considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate
and then no-one would benefit.  There is nothing
necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other
form of ownership.

> The only reason that the publishers might want to
> worry about 
> copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that
> whomever wanted to 
> distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to
> the 
> misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who
> wish to make any 
> material or even the prestigious gain of any kind,
> even power of 
> control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the
> dhamma, is, as 
> the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. 
> There seems to be 
> clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is
> certainly no one's or 
> group's personal property since even by convention
> the original owner 
> certainly took pains to distribute it
> indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise,
> to proclaim 
> copyright or ownership for this material in
> particular,unlike songs 
> and books or other intellectual treasure, except in
> order to check 
> that the contents are exactly as the writer of the
> explanation 
> intended, if not the original teacher intended.

I think you are on quite the wrong tack here.  For all
publishers that I can think of, the wider the
distribution the better.  And if you conisder the
actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may
be the only means he or she has of getting their work
distributed.
 
> From personal experience, people who see the value
> of the teachings 
> will come forward and help with the distribution and
> expenses 
> necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our
> website for example is 
> sponsored by someone who has never asked to be
> mentioned or to 
> advertise the several companies affiliated, (though
> we might be giving 
> them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have
> confidence that the dhamma 
> will be reached given the right conditions, and we
> should try to help 
> as many people to benefit from it as we have as best
> we can.  This 
> does not mean that if the person wanted to have more
> material 
> presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in
> book form and 
> such, for convenience of personal possession, they
> should not help 
> with the costs of book printing as they are able. 
> If the publishers 
> wish them to by selling the books or if the readers
> would like to 
> contribute to the printing of free books it should
> be their 
> prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should
> really be freely 
> distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana
> again, also 
> especially with Nina who has never had a thought
> about copyright 
> gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still
> witness.  The rest, as 
> Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations
> and the times we 
> live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other
> factors come into 
> consideration even in matters of the dhamma.

As you have said in another post, only the person him-
or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or
akusala involved.  We should not rush to judge others'
motives by their actions.

JOn


 
4606 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:51pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Erik,

> -----Original Message-----
> Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked
> once. What happens
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga
> in a previous
> lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given
> that each lifetime
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over
> again, in the same
> way as the first time?

I think it is mentioned in the text that once a person
becomes a sotapanna (reached the first level of magga), it
will take at most 7 life-time (which can be a very long
time) before the person becomes an arahant.  It is certain
that within 7 life-time, the person will experience magga 3
more times.

Each level of magga citta eradicates different kinds of
anusaya.  I can imagine each being very different, the next
level calmer than the previous level, the next level more
steadfast than the previous.

> Or do people go through an
> entire lifetime and
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously?

A sotapanna has PERMANENTLY eradicated the following kilesa:
1) Sakkaya-dithi (view of self)
2) Micha-dithi (wrong-view) [lobha-mula dithi-sampayutta]
3) Majhariya (stinginess) [dosa-mula: some of the dosa
cittas]
4) Issa (jealousy) [dosa-mula: some of the dosa cittas]
5) Vichikiccha (doubt in buddha, dhamma, and sangha)
[moha-mula vichikiccha-sampayutta]

They have no more latent kilesa, the kind that would cause a
violation of the precepts.

Since Arahantship is certain, I think this implies that
Satipatthana arises within the person *naturally* without
further instructions.  He/she would be a person with "sati"
appropriate at the level of sotapanna (no violation of
precepts, satipathanna, etc.).  I believe this is why the
Buddha urged the Bikkhus to be their own islands, i.e., no
longer having to depend on anyone to reach nibanna, in the
Parinibanna Sutta.

> Is such
> a person born with
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with
> each rebirth? Does
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The
> reason I ask is
> because it seems that backsliding would be
> possible if one were
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even
> though one may have had
> right view in the previus one.
>

This is only true if the person has NOT reached sotapanna.
For us Venuyya, back-sliding is a real possibility.  If we
did something that would result in being born in a place
where micha-ditthi is prevelant, then in that life we
accumulate such wrong views.  A very uncertain and shaky
path indeed.  The more reason to study realities now, and
not putting things off because things are so uncertain.

kom

 
4607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:54pm
Subject: visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear group,
I just got a message from venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi saying he has
thought some more about the Visuddhimagga issue and he now asks
me to leave the chapters on the web as he thinks it will be of
benefit. I will clarify with him how many chapters he thinks is
suitable.
robert


 
4608 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:57pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Dear Jonathan et al,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:Jon]
>
> Amara and all
>
> Just a couple of technical points on copyright.

This reminds me that Jonathan practices laws, which is why
he minces words so precisely, of which when applying to
dhamma, I am most grateful.

Anumoddhana,

kom

 
4609 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  So true kom,
If you meet Jon and discuss Dhamma with him it is even better.
He unerringly 'cuts to the chase'and dissects each aspect of a
problem. And so practical. Makes me wish I had taken law at
university.
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Jonathan et al,
> 
> > > This reminds me that Jonathan practices laws, which is why
> he minces words so precisely, of which when applying to
> dhamma, I am most grateful.
> 
> Anumoddhana,
> 
> kom
> 



 
4610 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Erik,

Good questions but over my head--I'll leave them to
the better-informed.

mike

--- Erik wrote:
> --- "m. nease"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Of course this all begs the question of all these
> > people's attainments in prior existences to the
> one in
> > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> > days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact,
> it
> > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> > accumulated defilements.  How much time has
> already
> > been spent in the past?
> 
> Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked
> once. What happens 
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in
> a previous 
> lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that
> each lifetime 
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over
> again, in the same 
> way as the first time? Or do people go through an
> entire lifetime and 
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a
> person born with 
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with
> each rebirth? Does 
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The
> reason I ask is 
> because it seems that backsliding would be possible
> if one were 
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though
> one may have had 
> right view in the previus one.
> 



 
4611 From: wynn   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:25pm
Subject: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Hi,

Thank you to all of you who have reply to my question.

 
4612 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 8:55pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  > Hope you will forgive for disagreeing.
> My humble apologies.


Dear Des,

None needed in the least, I hope we never all of us agree on anything, 
it would be much less interesting, I think!

Amara

Should I be asking the same thing?

A.

 
4613 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Meeting the members

 
  --- Antony wrote:
> Hello list
> 
> I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They 
are 
> here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. 
> 
> Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and sounding.  
I 
> met them infront of Sydney Town Hall. A very popular meeting spot, 
> usually, but today the steps, normally crowded with people, were 
> taped off due to some event occuring inside. It was probably a good 
> thing because I was the only one standing around so I was easy to 
> meet.
> 
> We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the strange 
> behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list, particularly 
> ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are much 
> stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our 
discussion.
> 
> You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with Dharma 
> sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal of 
> things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the things 
> that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others who are 
> clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma.
> 
> Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not 
> untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I say 
this 
> so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more likely 
> your perception than the intended reality. I am sure I am more 
> capable of offending you. If you like to test me see me off line... 
> only joking.
> 
> I took J and S to my favourite bookshop, not far from the coffee 
shop 
> we were at. This is the Adyar bookshop. It is owned by the 
> Theosophical Society and have a fairly good Buddhist section. I have 
> bought some good books there. I showed them the next item on my plan 
> which is the Conze translation of the Larger MahaprajnaParamita 
> sutra. Both S and J agreed it would be good for me to post large 
> tracts from this sutra for the enjoyment of everyone here. Only 
> joking those of you who are shaking in your philosophical booties. 
> But I might mention it when appropriate. You know it is thought by 
> some to be the first sutra committed to writing. possibly before the 
> end of the millenium that Buddha lived in. That means BC or BCE to 
> you and me. That's pretty amazing if it's true. Anyone know when the 
> Asokan Pillars were erected? I think that was BC and they had the 
> words of the Buddha chiselled into them didn't they?
> 
> Anyway I know I am bordering on the unpostable and off topicness 
with 
> this post But I thought it would at least be interesting to some. 
And 
> I asked a question or two and mentioned the Dharma in an appropriate 
> way so as to fall at least with a foot or a leg within the rules of 
> posting.
> 
> I haven't posted for a while but I read everyone elses posts 
> regularly. After meeting Sarah and Jonathon I felt inspired to post 
> something, so here I am posting it. May this post find you well, in 
> your breathing in and in your breathing out.
> 
> Antony
> 
> Sydney Australia


Dear Antony,

What a wonderful post!!  I hope your inspiration lasts a while, we 
miss you on the list!

Amara

 
 
4614 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: Re: Bhagwan Mahavira and Goutam Buddha

 
  Dear Mahavir Sanglikar,

I think some sources say that Mahavira is called Nigantha Nattaputta 
(sp?) in the Tripitaka.

Amara


> Dear Friends,
> Jai Jinendra!
> 
> This is 2600th year of birth of Bhagwan Mahavir.
> 
> Both Mahavira  and Goutam Buddha were from Shramn tradition of 
ancient 
> India. There mission was of same type, i.e.to open the doors of 
religion to 
> everybody and to protest the vedic invansion  to protest animal 
sacrifice in 
> the name of religion, . Both of them lived in same period i.e. 6th 
century 
> BCE and in same area i.e. Magadh, Bihar in India. One or two of 
their 
> Chaturmas ( 4months of the rainy season) were at same town.
> 
> But they did not  meet each other.Why? Or   we do not know about  
it?
> 
> If you know anything about conections between Mahavir and Goutam 
Buddh, 
> jains and buddhists etc. please let me know. Please send me the 
details on 
> following address:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045166020185042132090057065148100165094048139046
> 
> Please also visit my website at:
> 
> http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mahavir Sanglikar
> 

 
4615 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:42pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  > Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What happens 
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a previous 
> lifetime in the present lifetime? 

Dear Erik,

Although it has not been said anywhere in the Tipitaka that they do 
not return to this earth, there has never been an instance when the 
sotapanna has ever been reborn here in the Tipitaka, so most people 
think that they would have done such kusala as to be born in at least 
the heavenly planes, where lots of them are according to the 
teachings.

> Is it a given that each lifetime 
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same 
> way as the first time? 

From what I understand, attainment is often mentioned as duty that 
once done would never have to be repeated again ever, unlike all other 
work in the world.  But certain people who have acheived very high 
jhana as well as are arahanta (I don't think even the anagami could 
do this), could enter jhana with the magga phala citta as arammana, 
the only time they re-experience the magga citta, I think.

> Or do people go through an entire lifetime and 
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born with 
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? Does 
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is 
> because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one were 
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may have 
had 
> right view in the previus one.

This would be according to the individual's accumulations, only the 
Buddha could tell for sure whether, where and when a person would find 
the dhamma again.  But samsara is so long, there is always the 
chance!!!

Amara

 
4616 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Amara
> 
> > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> > the main kamma for 
> > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> > whatever akusala 
> > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> > knowledge in 
> > anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> > also.  We can never 
> > really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> > we can in any 
> > given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> > vipaka of the 
> > individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> > they find the 
> > Buddha's teachings.
> 
> I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
> dhamma for distribution through normal publication
> (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
> perhaps that those who support free distribution must
> be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
> offered for sale.


Jon,

Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and 
beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala 
citta ?  I suppose that is your prerogative.  That I feel differently 
is also mine, it would seem.

I still think as I wrote earlier; 

It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of 
finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of the 
person who first taught it.  Think of what the Buddha did in order to 
acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the 
rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it.  If memory serves he 
spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and 
alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning and 
afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night the 
deva and such, for forty five years.  A friend of mine always stressed 
that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on 
yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. 

And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma too 
much or not.  The times have changed, and certainly not for the 
better.  I hope I will always do my best to present the correct dhamma 
as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as long 
as I am able.  Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great 
heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and may 
we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that 
separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips,

(End quote)

Amara



> There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
> publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
> other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
> established distribution channels a wider audience can
> be reached than would be possible by free
> distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
> be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
> also available for free distribution (for obvious
> reasons).  
> 
> The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
> one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
> publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
> wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
> about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

 
4617 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Amara and all
> 
> Just a couple of technical points on copyright.
> 
> > In fact
> > who owns the 
> > copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to
> > belong to the Buddha 
> > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to
> > all those who study 
> > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would
> > desire knowledge.  
> > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it,
> > prove it for oneself 
> > and those with panna will be able to experience it',
> > or something to 
> > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko,
> > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 
> 
> There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I
> know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should
> be).  
> 
> Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the
> author of the work.  So a person who, for example,
> translates from one language into another, or who
> writes his own version of something, can assert his
> right to benefit from the use of that work.  This is a
> right that runs for a limited number of years and then
> expires.  It is intended to encourage people to
> publish their works, in the knowledge that they can
> benefit from others' use of their work.  Of course,
> anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow
> others to copy freely.
> 
> Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of
> their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their
> copyright), but they must take account of commercial
> considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate
> and then no-one would benefit.  There is nothing
> necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other
> form of ownership.
> 
> > The only reason that the publishers might want to
> > worry about 
> > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that
> > whomever wanted to 
> > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to
> > the 
> > misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who
> > wish to make any 
> > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind,
> > even power of 
> > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the
> > dhamma, is, as 
> > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. 
> > There seems to be 
> > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is
> > certainly no one's or 
> > group's personal property since even by convention
> > the original owner 
> > certainly took pains to distribute it
> > indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise,
> > to proclaim 
> > copyright or ownership for this material in
> > particular,unlike songs 
> > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in
> > order to check 
> > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the
> > explanation 
> > intended, if not the original teacher intended.
> 
> I think you are on quite the wrong tack here.  For all
> publishers that I can think of, the wider the
> distribution the better.  And if you conisder the
> actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may
> be the only means he or she has of getting their work
> distributed.


Jon,

As I said in my previous post you are entitled to your opinion as I am 
to mine.  There is no rule that I am aware of that we should all agree 
in these discussions.


> > From personal experience, people who see the value
> > of the teachings 
> > will come forward and help with the distribution and
> > expenses 
> > necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our
> > website for example is 
> > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be
> > mentioned or to 
> > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though
> > we might be giving 
> > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have
> > confidence that the dhamma 
> > will be reached given the right conditions, and we
> > should try to help 
> > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best
> > we can.  This 
> > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more
> > material 
> > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in
> > book form and 
> > such, for convenience of personal possession, they
> > should not help 
> > with the costs of book printing as they are able. 
> > If the publishers 
> > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers
> > would like to 
> > contribute to the printing of free books it should
> > be their 
> > prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should
> > really be freely 
> > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana
> > again, also 
> > especially with Nina who has never had a thought
> > about copyright 
> > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still
> > witness.  The rest, as 
> > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations
> > and the times we 
> > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other
> > factors come into 
> > consideration even in matters of the dhamma.
> 
> As you have said in another post, only the person him-
> or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or
> akusala involved.  We should not rush to judge others'
> motives by their actions.


I can't help if the Buddha set such high standards which possibly none 
could hope to follow and yet we can all witness through 25 centuries 
of time.

I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings.

Amara

 
4618 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Thanks.

metta,
des
--- Amara  wrote:
> 
> > Hope you will forgive for disagreeing.
> > My humble apologies.
> 
> 
> Dear Des,
> 
> None needed in the least, I hope we never all of us
> agree on anything, 
> it would be much less interesting, I think!
> 
> Amara
> 
> Should I be asking the same thing?
> 
> A.
> 



 
4619 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  The truth lies in simplicity, sometimes.
Thanks for the timely reminder, Num.

The is danger of focusing too narrowly on the concepts
versus relaity, and the reality is more valuable just
as Sujin/Amara have always wanted us to be aware of.

In a lighter vein, Num,
juat like the 6th patriach, you have spoken the truth
that there is no mind.
Take my Dharma seal and robe and run, disappear, or
you might be chased by those that misunderstand you.

Don't get stuck with the finger that points the moon,
or you will miss the moon completely.

metta,
des 



--- Num wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't know is this relevant to the post or not but
> in the Tipitaka it was 
> mentioned many times about the 500 quantities of
> things, animals, men, women. 
> Like 500 bhikku followed the Budhha, 500 became
> arahants.  500 robbers, 500 
> brahmins, 500 cows or goats.  Someone told me that
> 500 is an Indian idiom of 
> "numerous."  It doesn't mean  500 literately, it's
> just a metaphor.  I am not 
> sure about 7.
> 
> This is what I've heard, no confirmation, sorry.
> 
> Have to run to do sth again. 
> 
> Until later,
> 
> Num
> 



 
4620 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 11:01pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  > > Is it a given that each lifetime 
> > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the 
same 
> > way as the first time? 
> 
> From what I understand, attainment is often mentioned as duty that 
> once done would never have to be repeated again ever, unlike all 
other 
> work in the world.  But certain people who have acheived very high 
> jhana as well as are arahanta (I don't think even the anagami could 
> do this), could enter jhana with the magga phala citta as arammana, 
> the only time they re-experience the magga citta, I think.


Dear all,

I haave been kindly reminded by a friend that the phala samapati can 
be achieved by all levels of ariya puggala, not only the arahanta and 
the anagami, by those who have attained high levels of jhana, although 
the magga citta can only be experienced only once in samsara by each 
individual.  

It is the nirodha samapati (temporary cessation of the nama arising) 
that can only be achieved by the arahanta and the anagami.

In any case the attainment is permanent and does not have to be 
reacquired with each rebirth, otherwise there would not be the 
distinction between those who would return at least 7 times and those 
who would come back to be in samsara only once more, I would think.

Amara

 
4621 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:43am
Subject: Re: 7

 
  Some more food for thought. Another [7]

"Seven Types of Disciples"

The sevenfold typology is originally found in the Kitágiri Sutta of the 
Majjhima Nikáya (M.i,477-79) and is reformulated in the Puggalapaññatti of 
the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
This typology classifies the noble persons on the paths and fruits into 
seven types:
[1] the faith-devotee,
[2] the one liberated by faith,
[3] the body-witness,
[4] the one liberated in both ways,
[5] the truth-devotee,
[6] the one attained to understanding, and
[7] the one liberated by wisdom.

[1] The seven types may be divided into three general groups, each defined 
by the predominance of a particular spiritual faculty. The first two types 
are governed by a predominance of faith, the middle two by a predominance of 
concentration, and the last three by a predominance of wisdom.

metta,
des





 
4622 From: Mary Debenedictis   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:01am
Subject: Greetings!

 
  Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA.

Metta,

Bhante D.

 
4623 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 0:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings!

 
  Glad to hear that venerable and Welcome back. Amara arranged a
large box of Dhamma books for you but they missed you at your
stopover in Bangkok. I'll give you the details off-list later.
robert
--- Mary Debenedictis  wrote:
> Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Bhante D.



 
4624 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dan

Enjoyed your story about your kids and the
experienceing of realities.  (Can't say it gave me any
regrets about not having kids of my own, though!)

I would like to offer an alternative view on your
comments about strategies/tactics.

> If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> diversion can be 
> helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> stongly rooted 
> dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to
> replace the dosa with 
> something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else
> fails, suppressing 
> is better than expressing. There is some danger in
> that though, 
> because suppressing can give added strength to the
> dosa if it is not 
> dealt with with insight after the initial act of
> suppressing.

I don't think we can say that any of these tactics are
'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  It may *seem*
as though the akusala has been suppressed or has been
replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
realities are conditioned and not-self this could not
be so.  Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at
will, nor akusala made to disappear.  Any idea of
'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one
kind or another.

If we think about it for a moment, what is the reason
for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  After
all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do not
see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied
by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
feeling.

'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the
same as studying/being aware of the reality that
appears at the present moment.  This is a difficult
proposition to accept, but one well worth considering
sometime.

Jon


 
4625 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Jon and Dan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

[Dan wrote:]

> > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> > diversion can be 
> > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> > stongly rooted 
> > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to
> > replace the dosa with 
> > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else
> > fails, suppressing 
> > is better than expressing. There is some danger in
> > that though, 
> > because suppressing can give added strength to the
> > dosa if it is not 
> > dealt with with insight after the initial act of
> > suppressing.
> 
> I don't think we can say that any of these tactics
> are
> 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  It may
> *seem*
> as though the akusala has been suppressed or has
> been
> replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
> realities are conditioned and not-self this could
> not
> be so.  

"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts --
connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- arise
in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a
particular theme. He should attend to another theme,
apart from that one, connected with what is skillful.
When he is attending to this other theme, apart from
that one, connected with what is skillful, then those
evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire,
aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside.
With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right
within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would
use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out
a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful
thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or
delusion -- arise in a monk while he is referring to
and attending to a particular theme, he should attend
to another theme, apart from that one, connected with
what is skillful. When he is attending to this other
theme, apart from that one, connected with what is
skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts --
connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- are
abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he
steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies
it, and concentrates it. 

Majjhima Nikaya 20
Vitakkasanthana Sutta
The Relaxation of Thoughts

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html

> Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned
> at
> will, nor akusala made to disappear.  Any idea of
> 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one
> kind or another.

Ideas aren't paramattha dhammas, are they?  Aren't
they much more likely to be compounded of kusala and
akusala than to be purely one or the other?  If an
idea, for example, arises which prevents akusala
kammapatha--say, "I won't insult this guy because that
would be wrong speech, which conduces to self-harm and
to the harm of others"--then isn't the result partly
kusala even though the idea is informed with the
delusion of self?

You aren't suggesting that insight into paramattha
dhamma is the only kusala, are you?

"There are many degrees of right view. In accordance
with the degree of right view there are many degrees
of kusala citta. One degree of right view is knowing
what is good and what is evil; for example, knowing
that lying is unwholesome and that honesty and
gratefulness are wholesome. Another degree of right
view is understanding that one should eliminate
defilements by deeds of generosity. One performs such
deeds with the purpose of eliminating stinginess and
clinging to possessions. Another degree of right view
is understanding that one should observe siila, moral
conduct, that one should abstain from unwholesome
actions through body and speech, with the purpose of
eliminating defilements such as attachment, aversion
and ignorance. Another degree of right view is
understanding that one should subdue the defilements
which cause the citta to be distressed and agitated.
Another degree again of right view is understanding
that pa~n~naa, wisdom, should be developed with the
purpose of completely eradicating defilements.

Deeds of Merit

Sujin Boriharnwanaket

http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html

> If we think about it for a moment, what is the
> reason
> for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  After
> all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do
> not
> see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied
> by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
> feeling.

This is certainly true.  If you are no longer subject
to coarse akusala, my admiration (and envy) is
boundless.  I still live with (quite painful) coarse
akusala every day and the illusion of self every
moment.  If very coarse and medium kusala--all
interspersed (and seemingly intermingled) with the
illusion of self--didn't arise regularly to mitigate
speech and action based on coarse and medium akusala,
I might be writing to this list from a homeless
shelter or prison--assuming I were still alive.

If the inclination to evil speech or action--along
with the unpleasant feeling attending coarse
akusala--is eliminated, then it's kusala, even though
the anusaya is left untouched.  That it's a coarser
kind of kusala than insight into one of the paramattha
dhammas doesn't make it akusala or adhamma.  OF COURSE
sammasati of the eightfold path is a higher degree of
kusala than is simple restraint from evil speech or
action--but is there really any virtue in discouraging
coarse kusala because it isn't refined enough?  Isn't
this making the best the enemy of the good?   

> 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not
> the
> same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> appears at the present moment.  This is a difficult
> proposition to accept, but one well worth
> considering
> sometime.

Can 'we' choose not to 'target any reality' or to
'study/be aware of the reality that appears at the
present moment"?  It may seem so, "but given that
both...are conditioned and not-self this could not be
so."  

Probably I've misunderstood (as usual) everything
you've said as well as everything I've read in the
tipitaka and everything I've ever experienced.  If so,
my apologies for just another akusala reflection from
your deluded friend,

mike



 
4626 From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Mike,
Nice to see you back in full form! This is a great topic and I look 
forward to learning much from the discussion between you and Jon - 
and I hope dan has much to add also.
robert
 "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Jon and Dan,
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> 
> [Dan wrote:]
> 
> > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> > > diversion can be 
> > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> > > stongly rooted 
> > > dosa.

 
4627 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  > Such a gem of a post! 
(...)
> The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When 
> consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger, say, 
the 
> best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you described. 
> Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to 
remember 
> to be mindful. 
> 
> At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an 
absolute 
> fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let him 
have 
> graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were 
> advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His 
> five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I can't 
stand 
> it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an unpleasant 
> sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the sound. 
> You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm hearing a 
> sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound after 
> it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears." Mark 
> screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his dinner 
> equanimously and peacefully. 


Dear Dan,

I don't know much about children but I too think it is a beautiful 
story, another real gem!  I wish I had had such an early start with 
the study of realities, with such a careful guide.  


> If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can be 
> helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly rooted 
> dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the dosa with 
> something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else fails, suppressing 
> is better than expressing. There is some danger in that though, 
> because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it is not 
> dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing.


Especially at such early age when the really deep understanding of the 
dhamma could not yet be conditioned to arise, this is already the 
beginning of the study of things as they really are, which many grown 
ups would never hear of in their entire lives.  When your son realized 
that the 'sound scrapes the ears', he has just that much more 
knowledge of that element, if even at the intellectual level.  
Whenever he considers the dhamma later on he will have familiarity 
with this idea and have just that much more condition to remember the 
true characteristics of things.


> I think of sati, saddha, panya, samadhi, viriya more as "friends" 
and 
> hatred (anger, etc.) as hindrances. In properly dealing with 
> hindrances by cultivating friends, it is the FRIENDS that are the 
> friends, not the hindrances. 


One should also remember that only the anagami and upwards would no 
longer have dosa, although already at the sotapanna level it would 
never be strong enough to condition killing in any way.  There are 
hindrances of satipatthana but having dosa is not one of them, they, 
like all other defilements could be studied and their characteristics 
would show that they are not the self either.  Not that one should 
cultivate dosa or create conditions for it to happen just to study 
them; that would indeed be trying to control events.  But when it 
arises from conditions as it will since the cetasika has not been 
eliminated and we are not in the brahma world to be able to 
temporarily escape dosa or unpleasant feelings, with sati we could 
gain knowledge, of dosa as not being the self, and of the fact that 
there is no real person being angry or displeased.  

But it would be much later before children could also penetrate this 
complicated matter for themselves and I think what dhamma you are 
teaching them is admirable and am sure such gentle teachings will 
benefit them in their lives, although in some stages of their 
development they might think otherwise in the future.  And their 
individual accumulations will lead them as well, but this basis that 
you are teaching them is one of the most precious heritage you could 
possibly give them in any lifetime, I think.

Anumodana in all the kusala,

Amara

 
4628 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Christianity Meets One of the Six Sixes

 
  

 
 
4629 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:27am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Jon, 
Thanks for the intriguing and (as always) insightful post. I do have 
some questions and comments, though.

Jon:
> I don't think we can say that any of these tactics are
> 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  

Dan:
I'm having difficulty understanding your comments. "Kusala" has a 
number of different meanings. One is sensu "wholesome, good," as it 
applies to cittas. This CAN'T be what you mean because when applying 
any sort of "tactic" many cittas arise and pass away, some of them 
kusala and some of them akusala. If a certain tactic gives rise to a 
preponderance of kusala cittas, is it a kusala tactic? That doesn't 
make sense either because some "good" tactics may well lead to a 
preponderance of akusala cittas in some situations or with some 
people, while some "bad" tactics may well lead to a preponderance of 
kusala cittas in some situations or with some people. What's critical 
is how skillfully the tactic is managed. It is skilful use of a tactic 
that is kusala, not the tactic per se. This can't be what you mean 
either because you were referring to the tactic, not the kusala or 
akusala use of a tactic.

I'd say kusala (skilful) use of these tactics is helpful for turning 
the balance of cittas towards the kusala (wholesome) rather than 
akusala. I presume that is why these tactics were expounded by Buddha 
in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta (MN 20), which mike was kind enough to 
quote for us. Of course, he was suggesting them as aids in attaining 
jhana in formal meditation. Does this mean that they can't be helpful 
in everyday living too? Hardly, but as far as I know, Buddha was 
silent on this question. Instead, we have to rely on our own 
experience, guided by careful reflection on Dhamma, to determine if 
skilful use of a tactic is helpful or not.

Jon:
> It may *seem*
> as though the akusala has been suppressed or has been
> replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
> realities are conditioned and not-self this could not
> be so.  

Dan:
If the akusala cittas are not suppressed, or are not replaced by 
kusala, I wonder why Buddha would suggest the tactics. Both kinds of 
realities are of course conditioned, but conditioned by what? 
Conditioned by chanda (for deliverance), intention, strong 
determination, viriya, sati. Recognizing the danger and emptiness and 
pain to oneself and to others in the akusala, there is desire for 
deliverance from the akusala. There is the intention to work for 
deliverance, and there is effort. Mindfulness checks the cittas 
against the Dhamma: "Hmmm... akusala cittas. The tactic is not being 
used skillfully. Adjust." Or: "Hmmm... kusala cittas. How did these 
arise? Make note of that (for later use by the OTHER definition of 
sati, viz. memory)." Kusala and akusala cittas are indeed conditioned. 
Some of the conditions are intimately associated with what we call 
"trying" in ordinary language. Without "trying", the ratio of kusala 
cittas to akusala cittas will not increase. Certainly, we need to be 
careful of the word "trying" because akusala (unskilful)  "trying" 
conditions akusala (like tension) while kusala (skilful) "trying" 
conditions kusala.

Jon:
> Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at
> will, nor akusala made to disappear.  

Dan:
Again, I don't understand what you mean. Clearly, the arising of 
kusala and disappearance of akusala are kamma, not vipaka; active, not 
passive. This is just the basics of right view. Without the volition 
to make kusala arise or akusala to disappear, there will be no result. 

It depends on what you mean by "will", of course. Chanda, intention, 
effort, and sati are necessary conditions. Skillfully applied "will" 
leads to arising of kusala and disappearance of akusala. A helpful 
strategy (not tactic) is to work at making sure efforts are skilful. 
And, yes, a big part of that work is to make sure that we do not try 
to control kusala and akusala. Instead of trying to control dhammas, 
skilful effort involves sati always checking the indriya for 
rightness. When the indriya are right, strong, and well-balanced, 
kusala is summoned and akusala is made to disappear. 

Jon:
> Any idea of 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one
> kind or another.

Dan:
It isn't clear to me what you mean by "'dealing with' is bound to be 
akusala..." On the night of his enlightenment, Buddha dealt skillfully 
with the fear and dread that arose. His enlightenment was conditioned 
by skilful "dealing with" akusala. 

Jon:
> If we think about it for a moment, what is the reason
> for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  

Dan:
Dosa is one of the three roots of evil whose eradication conditions 
enlightenment. Eradication of the root is conditioned by effort and 
intention. The effort and intention are kamma, not vipaka; volition, 
not result. Without the volition to deal skillfully with dosa, the 
root cannot be eradicated. 

Jon:
> After all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do not
> see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied
> by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
> feeling.

Dan:
This is true. That may be why Buddha (or commentary?) said that dosa 
was the easiest to make progress on eliminating (Something like: 
"Hatred is a serious fault that fades quickly. Attachment is a less 
serious fault that fades slowly").

Also true that some akusala is more damaging than others. Targeting 
the most damaging akusala makes a lot more sense than targeting the 
most subtle. When progress is made on eradicating the gross kilesa, 
the target shifts more towards the medium kilesa. When the gross 
kilesa are prominent, the medium kilesa cannot even be seen! When 
progress is made on eradicating the medium kilesa, the target shifts 
more towards the subtle kilesa. When the medium kilesa are prominent, 
the subtle kilesa cannot even be seen, let alone eliminated.

Jon:
> 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the
> same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> appears at the present moment.  

Dan:
That's for sure! 

Thanks again for your wonderful post.

Dan

 
4630 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:30am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Great post, mike. It's good to hear your voice.

Dan

 
4631 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:33am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Robert,
If you are not careful, you just might learn something from my part in 
the discussion too! Or are you careful? ;)

Dan

> Dear Mike,
> Nice to see you back in full form! This is a great topic and I look 
> forward to learning much from the discussion between you and Jon - 
> and I hope dan has much to add also.
> robert
>  "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Dear Jon and Dan,
> > 
> > --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> > 
> > [Dan wrote:]
> > 
> > > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> > > > diversion can be 
> > > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> > > > stongly rooted 
> > > > dosa.

 
4632 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:47am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Amara,
Thanks for your kind words. They help me keep in mind how important 
it is for me to try to provide careful guidance to my children. 
Thanks for the great encouragement.

Dan

 
4633 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Amara,

You wrote:
> never be strong enough to condition killing in any way.  There are 
> hindrances of satipatthana but having dosa is not one of them, they, 
> like all other defilements could be studied and their 
characteristics 
> would show that they are not the self either.  

This is of course true, but dosa can cause such horrible damage so 
quickly, that it is good to consider a broader strategy than just 
satipatthana. Some moments, sati is not well established; dosa arises, 
and conditions just don't allow satipatthana to be wielded skillfully. 
Of course, we should never lose sight of the goal of perfect 
awareness, but at moments when awareness is quite weak, prevention of 
damage via akusala cittas can also be helpful.

Dan

 
4634 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Learning already, Dan, and much looking forward to the
continuation of this exchange between you, Jon, and Mike.
Robert
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> If you are not careful, you just might learn something from my
> part in 
> the discussion too! Or are you careful? ;)
> 
> Dan
> 


 
4635 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  Amara,

If there is a Pali word that expresses strong agreement with your 
statements while at the same time not implying that others are not 
sincere in their beliefs, I am using that word now.

The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by adherence to human 
social conventions.

It is more difficult for a person attached to property of any kind to 
develop insight than just about anything else.

Gratitude for the strength of insight.


Herman

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> > Amara
> > 
> > > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> > > the main kamma for 
> > > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> > > whatever akusala 
> > > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> > > knowledge in 
> > > anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> > > also.  We can never 
> > > really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> > > we can in any 
> > > given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> > > vipaka of the 
> > > individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> > > they find the 
> > > Buddha's teachings.
> > 
> > I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
> > dhamma for distribution through normal publication
> > (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
> > perhaps that those who support free distribution must
> > be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
> > offered for sale.
> 
> 
> Jon,
> 
> Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and 
> beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala 
> citta ?  I suppose that is your prerogative.  That I feel 
differently 
> is also mine, it would seem.
> 
> I still think as I wrote earlier; 
> 
> It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of 
> finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of 
the 
> person who first taught it.  Think of what the Buddha did in order 
to 
> acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the 
> rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it.  If memory serves 
he 
> spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and 
> alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning 
and 
> afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night 
the 
> deva and such, for forty five years.  A friend of mine always 
stressed 
> that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on 
> yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. 
> 
> And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma 
too 
> much or not.  The times have changed, and certainly not for the 
> better.  I hope I will always do my best to present the correct 
dhamma 
> as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as 
long 
> as I am able.  Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great 
> heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and 
may 
> we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that 
> separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips,
> 
> (End quote)
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> > There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
> > publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
> > other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
> > established distribution channels a wider audience can
> > be reached than would be possible by free
> > distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
> > be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
> > also available for free distribution (for obvious
> > reasons).  
> > 
> > The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
> > one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
> > publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
> > wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
> > about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

 
4636 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  Hi all,

There is world-wide difference between stewardship and ownership. We 
have temporary use, termporary benefit of all that is given us. We 
can truly take refuge in the bright lights that have been selfless.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Endless, endless suffering.

Give to Buddha what is Buddha's.

With Metta

Herman

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> > Amara and all
> > 
> > Just a couple of technical points on copyright.
> > 
> > > In fact
> > > who owns the 
> > > copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to
> > > belong to the Buddha 
> > > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to
> > > all those who study 
> > > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would
> > > desire knowledge.  
> > > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it,
> > > prove it for oneself 
> > > and those with panna will be able to experience it',
> > > or something to 
> > > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko,
> > > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 
> > 
> > There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I
> > know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should
> > be).  
> > 
> > Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the
> > author of the work.  So a person who, for example,
> > translates from one language into another, or who
> > writes his own version of something, can assert his
> > right to benefit from the use of that work.  This is a
> > right that runs for a limited number of years and then
> > expires.  It is intended to encourage people to
> > publish their works, in the knowledge that they can
> > benefit from others' use of their work.  Of course,
> > anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow
> > others to copy freely.
> > 
> > Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of
> > their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their
> > copyright), but they must take account of commercial
> > considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate
> > and then no-one would benefit.  There is nothing
> > necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other
> > form of ownership.
> > 
> > > The only reason that the publishers might want to
> > > worry about 
> > > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that
> > > whomever wanted to 
> > > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to
> > > the 
> > > misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who
> > > wish to make any 
> > > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind,
> > > even power of 
> > > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the
> > > dhamma, is, as 
> > > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. 
> > > There seems to be 
> > > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is
> > > certainly no one's or 
> > > group's personal property since even by convention
> > > the original owner 
> > > certainly took pains to distribute it
> > > indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> > > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise,
> > > to proclaim 
> > > copyright or ownership for this material in
> > > particular,unlike songs 
> > > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in
> > > order to check 
> > > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the
> > > explanation 
> > > intended, if not the original teacher intended.
> > 
> > I think you are on quite the wrong tack here.  For all
> > publishers that I can think of, the wider the
> > distribution the better.  And if you conisder the
> > actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may
> > be the only means he or she has of getting their work
> > distributed.
> 
> 
> Jon,
> 
> As I said in my previous post you are entitled to your opinion as I 
am 
> to mine.  There is no rule that I am aware of that we should all 
agree 
> in these discussions.
> 
> 
> > > From personal experience, people who see the value
> > > of the teachings 
> > > will come forward and help with the distribution and
> > > expenses 
> > > necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our
> > > website for example is 
> > > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be
> > > mentioned or to 
> > > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though
> > > we might be giving 
> > > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have
> > > confidence that the dhamma 
> > > will be reached given the right conditions, and we
> > > should try to help 
> > > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best
> > > we can.  This 
> > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more
> > > material 
> > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in
> > > book form and 
> > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they
> > > should not help 
> > > with the costs of book printing as they are able. 
> > > If the publishers 
> > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers
> > > would like to 
> > > contribute to the printing of free books it should
> > > be their 
> > > prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should
> > > really be freely 
> > > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana
> > > again, also 
> > > especially with Nina who has never had a thought
> > > about copyright 
> > > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still
> > > witness.  The rest, as 
> > > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations
> > > and the times we 
> > > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other
> > > factors come into 
> > > consideration even in matters of the dhamma.
> > 
> > As you have said in another post, only the person him-
> > or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or
> > akusala involved.  We should not rush to judge others'
> > motives by their actions.
> 
> 
> I can't help if the Buddha set such high standards which possibly 
none 
> could hope to follow and yet we can all witness through 25 
centuries 
> of time.
> 
> I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings.
> 
> Amara

 
4637 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:55pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
 
> 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the
> same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> appears at the present moment.  This is a difficult
> proposition to accept, but one well worth considering
> sometime.
> 
> Jon
> 

Jon,

What is targeting if there is no self? What is studying if there is 
no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very difficult 
proposition to express. The targeting mind, the studying mind. What 
about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses not to act, or 
inhibits an action already starting.  Thought without corresponding 
verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of future 
potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it? To feel anger, and 
yet act compassionately? What is the name for that? What is the name 
for choice, decision?

Kind Regards


Herman 


 

 
4638 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings!

 
  If you are around southern california and on weekend, please feel free to 
contact me.
tel: 626/577-9010
fax: 626/577-9129

office:
1455 San Marino Ave.,
San Marino CA 91108

metta,
des


>From: "Mary Debenedictis" 
>>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings!
>Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:01:46 -0400
>
>Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA.
>
>Metta,
>
>Bhante D.
>


 
4639 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Dear Group,
I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele
and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list.
Thought you would like to read an edited version.
> Hi, Robert -
 
> <> writes:

 Ultimately only profound, direct 
experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it
is  clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe
exact)
 records of the Buddhas word's. 
robert

> =============================
>        I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that
to 
the Sutta 
> and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me, 
between the 
> Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the
sense 
that both 
> were composed during a period of centuries following the death
of 
the Buddha, 
> the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half
centuries 
after the 
> Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have
been 
directly 
> composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the

Mahayana 
> Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping
with 
the Nagas 
> until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the 
Abhidhamma, the 
> claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the
Buddha 
in the 
> Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and
off on 
the 
> spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories.
> 
> With metta,
Ø	Howard
Ø	__________________

> Dear Howard,
> The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the
feel of 
> single authorship but there are variations in the way the
Buddha 
> presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with
the 
> the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance.
> robert
> 
===========================
Mmm, hmm. Agreed.


howard
_______

	ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the
reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after
the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who
also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha
although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are >
some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't
ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar
with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have
these opinions too"

So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the
teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the
first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact
feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka.
2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
Buddha's word.
3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have
said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition.
4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the
sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who
taught the suttas.
5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm
and that sounds like a fairy story.

Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma
contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does
anyone else have any specific points where they think this is
so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give
my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far
Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are
very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to
weaken point #4 objection.
Robert    
_____________
   > Hi, Robert -
> 

> > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the
sutta 
> > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas.
Howard, 
> > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the
Abhidhamma is 
in 
> > agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> > 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the 
Abhidhamma and 
> especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it
might 
have with 
> the Sutta Pitaka. ;-))
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the

Buddha's 
> > word.
> > 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people 
believe many 
> things.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
-
> 
> > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva
realm and 
> > that sounds like a fairy story.
> > 
> > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> > 
> > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the 
> > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is
not 
> > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they
think 
this 
> > is so?
> > 
> > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will
give my 
> > reasons for not being convinced by them.
> > 
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be
quite 
pleased 
> should you succeed. :-)
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>    > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka 
> > there are    
> > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken

point #4 
> > objection.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about
the 
authorship of 
> the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright
violation 
of Aesop's 
> Fables! ;-))
Howard
______________________________

Greetings Howard,
More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole
of 
the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each 
other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably 
remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit
in. We 
soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really
mean? 

There are different levels of understanding in theory and
practice. 
To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which
is 
so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst)
there 
has to be insight into many actual dhammas – and that is not
easy; in 
the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which
is 
nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The

Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in
different 
ways. One can test it and see that the world – i.e. what is
appearing 
at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there.  Will noted in
the 
end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so– it is the
truth, 
the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed
and 
that is why it is called Abhi – higher or ultimate – Dhamma,
truth.

I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and
complement 
each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms –
why 
should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or
outside 
the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they 
weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on 
understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom
length 
body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their
validity – 
I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they
pertain 
to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the
story 
of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had
taken 
a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him
to 
their homes he endured the pain patiently – he could have killed
them 
all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the
bank 
for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it
always 
conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I
get 
annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know – how
could 
we know? But I don't doubt it.

You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later
Mahayana 
because the commentaries say it was first preached in the
Tavitimsa 
deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the
whole 
of the Abhidhamma – one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka.
You say 
you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know
right 
throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to

them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the
Buddha 
or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for
this 
reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud? 

It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called
into 
question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a
stain 
and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the
Abhidhamma 
was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the
Dhamma, 
among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had
the 
entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the 
first 
book was also covered  in gems, and  king Vijayabahu  used to
study 
iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into 
Singhalese. 
In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka –
just 
look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or
some of 
the Anguttara nikaya – thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is
radically 
different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta
pitaka there are many 
teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve 
senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they
are 
explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is
very 
helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an
object 
for satipatthana vipassana.
 Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do
know 
that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The 
Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world
– 
and in that world there is only  evanescent, conditioned 
phenomena: 
the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to

break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a

doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word,
nor 
can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they
can do 
is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that
are 
arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any
doubts 
or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha
become 
nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in
more 
detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and
anyone 
else who is reading).
. Robert

 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Robert,
>    A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but
> I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why
> it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to
> stay awake :-) 
>    But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of
> this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I
> can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the
> permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can
> help break down the notion of a "self", but besides
> this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find
> particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version
> of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure
> time of a deva at the moment. 
>    While I do keep a very open mind on the possible
> benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any
> benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy
> for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far
> as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the
> unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's
> teachings that clearly separate him from all other
Ø	spiritual traditions.
Ø	FK

Ø	_______________________
Ø	 Dear Fk,
Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more

praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your 
interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1).
I 
know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to
be 
swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this
list 
there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about
Abhidhamma 
and are ready to take the time to delve into it.
Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as
exciting as 
counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many 
repetitions – it has put me to sleep on many a restless night.

There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the 
Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest
to 
read and can be studied without too many problems. They get 
increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though)
until 
the final book – The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is
so 
difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is, 
however, also the most important and profound as it details the 
numerous interwoven conditions  that arise  at any moment. We
can't 
just jump in and fathom it though.
That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
Burma) 
novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
and 
very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
web 
at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
Once getting through that there is a superb book – Abhidhamma in

Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at 
http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at
http://www.dhammastudy.com/
This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
studied 
like an academic subject. The different classifications are
there to 
direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors
and to 
see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation,
function, and 
cause(s).   The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the 
Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS)
The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa
(matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas (
the 
aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa, 
defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of
suffering). 
The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) – satipatthana
vipassana- 
is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and
dissecting 
in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in
the 
Abhidhamma. 
It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is
one 
of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into 
more 
detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada

(dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even
at 
the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma)
sheds 
much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha
(concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are
explained 
in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths 
contained in the Sutttanta pitaka.
It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost
the 
purpose – to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
concept 
from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in 
metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere 
theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
what 
one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom –
but I 
believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
as the 
rest of the Tipitaka was and is. 

On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper 
aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma
is a 
theme that runs through every story – and if we can see the
depth of 
kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach
us 
well. 
Best wishes
robert

__________________
 Dear FK

Now you are lost!!! Condemned.
I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the
Abhidhamma 
along the beaches of San Diego.
Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe
me!
Give it a try and also you will discover something very
meaningful; promise 
I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-)

Love and respectCybele
_______________
Hi, Robert -
> 
>        I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma
well 
and 
> faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly,
and I 
certainly 
> do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced
with 
regard to 
> the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them.
I far 
more 
> strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras,
though 
I value 
> many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with

heaven realms 
> or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting
this 
realm. I 
> tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not.
It 
is simply 
> my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to
add 
> authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main
reasons 
for 
> suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of
scholar-
monks is 
> that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that 
modern 
> "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a
650-year 
period 
> following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing
piece 
of work, 
> in any case.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
___________________

Greetings Howard,
So finally on this issue we are fairly close.

Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation
and tone 
of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be 
presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given
its 
own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it
was 
first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas.

Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it
was 
figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has
the 
stamp of single mind.
2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds
of 
monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma
when 
it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling
about 
the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada.
It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and
see 
its truths. 
kind regards
robert

_____________________________

<<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
Burma)
novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
and 
very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
web
at 

   http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm 

Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in
Daily
Life" by Nina van Gorkom 
This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
studied
like an academic subject. -->> 

BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact,
in my
experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do
not 
read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and
study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various 
formats). 

(BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my 
BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study
the 
subject several years ago ...) 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Also from Ro?ert:

<<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep
uppermost 
the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried
away in 
metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere 
theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
what 
one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom
but I 
believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
as the 
rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->>

BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which
one
should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have
seen
many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time
to
study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without
any
attempt to appy it into daily practice. 

 

 
4640 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:

Just wanted to thank you Amara and others for your replies!

E.

 
4641 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Robert,

As always ...

Thanks,
Leonardo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" 
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?


>
>
> Dear Group,
> I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele
> and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list.
> Thought you would like to read an edited version.
> > Hi, Robert -
>
> > <> writes:
>
>  Ultimately only profound, direct
> experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it
> is  clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe
> exact)
>  records of the Buddhas word's.
> robert
>
> > =============================
> >        I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that
> to
> the Sutta
> > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me,
> between the
> > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the
> sense
> that both
> > were composed during a period of centuries following the death
> of
> the Buddha,
> > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half
> centuries
> after the
> > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have
> been
> directly
> > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the
>
> Mahayana
> > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping
> with
> the Nagas
> > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the
> Abhidhamma, the
> > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the
> Buddha
> in the
> > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and
> off on
> the
> > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories.
> >
> > With metta,
> Ø Howard
> Ø __________________
>
> > Dear Howard,
> > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the
> feel of
> > single authorship but there are variations in the way the
> Buddha
> > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with
> the
> > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance.
> > robert
> >
> ===========================
> Mmm, hmm. Agreed.
>
>
> howard
> _______
>
> ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the
> reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after
> the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who
> also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha
> although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are >
> some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't
> ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar
> with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have
> these opinions too"
>
> So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the
> teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the
> first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact
> feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
> Buddha's word.
> 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have
> said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition.
> 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the
> sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who
> taught the suttas.
> 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm
> and that sounds like a fairy story.
>
> Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma
> contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does
> anyone else have any specific points where they think this is
> so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give
> my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far
> Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are
> very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to
> weaken point #4 objection.
> Robert
> _____________
>    > Hi, Robert -
> >
>
> > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the
> sutta
> > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas.
> Howard,
> > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the
> Abhidhamma is
> in
> > > agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the
> Abhidhamma and
> > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it
> might
> have with
> > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-))
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
>
> Buddha's
> > > word.
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people
> believe many
> > things.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> -
> >
> > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva
> realm and
> > > that sounds like a fairy story.
> > >
> > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> > >
> > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the
> > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is
> not
> > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they
> think
> this
> > > is so?
> > >
> > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will
> give my
> > > reasons for not being convinced by them.
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be
> quite
> pleased
> > should you succeed. :-)
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka
> > > there are
> > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken
>
> point #4
> > > objection.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about
> the
> authorship of
> > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright
> violation
> of Aesop's
> > Fables! ;-))
> Howard
> ______________________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole
> of
> the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each
> other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably
> remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit
> in. We
> soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really
> mean?
>
> There are different levels of understanding in theory and
> practice.
> To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which
> is
> so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst)
> there
> has to be insight into many actual dhammas - and that is not
> easy; in
> the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which
> is
> nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The
>
> Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in
> different
> ways. One can test it and see that the world - i.e. what is
> appearing
> at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there.  Will noted in
> the
> end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so- it is the
> truth,
> the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed
> and
> that is why it is called Abhi - higher or ultimate - Dhamma,
> truth.
>
> I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and
> complement
> each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms -
> why
> should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or
> outside
> the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they
> weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on
> understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom
> length
> body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their
> validity -
> I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they
> pertain
> to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the
> story
> of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had
> taken
> a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him
> to
> their homes he endured the pain patiently - he could have killed
> them
> all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the
> bank
> for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it
> always
> conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I
> get
> annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know - how
> could
> we know? But I don't doubt it.
>
> You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later
> Mahayana
> because the commentaries say it was first preached in the
> Tavitimsa
> deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the
> whole
> of the Abhidhamma - one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka.
> You say
> you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know
> right
> throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to
>
> them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the
> Buddha
> or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for
> this
> reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud?
>
> It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called
> into
> question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a
> stain
> and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the
> Abhidhamma
> was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the
> Dhamma,
> among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had
> the
> entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the
> first
> book was also covered  in gems, and  king Vijayabahu  used to
> study
> iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into
> Singhalese.
> In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka -
> just
> look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or
> some of
> the Anguttara nikaya - thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is
> radically
> different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta
> pitaka there are many
> teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve
> senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they
> are
> explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is
> very
> helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an
> object
> for satipatthana vipassana.
>  Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do
> know
> that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The
> Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world
> -
> and in that world there is only  evanescent, conditioned
> phenomena:
> the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to
>
> break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a
>
> doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word,
> nor
> can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they
> can do
> is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that
> are
> arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any
> doubts
> or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha
> become
> nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in
> more
> detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and
> anyone
> else who is reading).
> . Robert
>
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Robert,
> >    A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but
> > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why
> > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to
> > stay awake :-)
> >    But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of
> > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I
> > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the
> > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can
> > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides
> > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find
> > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version
> > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure
> > time of a deva at the moment.
> >    While I do keep a very open mind on the possible
> > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any
> > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy
> > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far
> > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the
> > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's
> > teachings that clearly separate him from all other
> Ø spiritual traditions.
> Ø FK
>
> Ø _______________________
> Ø Dear Fk,
> Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more
>
> praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your
> interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1).
> I
> know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to
> be
> swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this
> list
> there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about
> Abhidhamma
> and are ready to take the time to delve into it.
> Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as
> exciting as
> counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many
> repetitions - it has put me to sleep on many a restless night.
>
> There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the
> Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest
> to
> read and can be studied without too many problems. They get
> increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though)
> until
> the final book - The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is
> so
> difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is,
> however, also the most important and profound as it details the
> numerous interwoven conditions  that arise  at any moment. We
> can't
> just jump in and fathom it though.
> That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
> Burma)
> novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
> and
> very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
> web
> at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
> Once getting through that there is a superb book - Abhidhamma in
>
> Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at
> http://www.dhammastudy.com/
> This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
> studied
> like an academic subject. The different classifications are
> there to
> direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors
> and to
> see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation,
> function, and
> cause(s).   The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the
> Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS)
> The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa
> (matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas (
> the
> aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa,
> defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of
> suffering).
> The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) - satipatthana
> vipassana-
> is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and
> dissecting
> in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in
> the
> Abhidhamma.
> It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is
> one
> of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into
> more
> detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada
>
> (dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even
> at
> the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma)
> sheds
> much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha
> (concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are
> explained
> in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths
> contained in the Sutttanta pitaka.
> It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost
> the
> purpose - to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
> concept
> from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in
> metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere
> theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
> what
> one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom -
> but I
> believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
> as the
> rest of the Tipitaka was and is.
>
> On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper
> aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma
> is a
> theme that runs through every story - and if we can see the
> depth of
> kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach
> us
> well.
> Best wishes
> robert
>
> __________________
>  Dear FK
>
> Now you are lost!!! Condemned.
> I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the
> Abhidhamma
> along the beaches of San Diego.
> Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe
> me!
> Give it a try and also you will discover something very
> meaningful; promise
> I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-)
>
> Love and respectCybele
> _______________
> Hi, Robert -
> >
> >        I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma
> well
> and
> > faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly,
> and I
> certainly
> > do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced
> with
> regard to
> > the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them.
> I far
> more
> > strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras,
> though
> I value
> > many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with
>
> heaven realms
> > or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting
> this
> realm. I
> > tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not.
> It
> is simply
> > my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to
> add
> > authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main
> reasons
> for
> > suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of
> scholar-
> monks is
> > that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that
> modern
> > "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a
> 650-year
> period
> > following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing
> piece
> of work,
> > in any case.
> >
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> ___________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> So finally on this issue we are fairly close.
>
> Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation
> and tone
> of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be
> presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given
> its
> own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it
> was
> first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas.
>
> Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it
> was
> figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has
> the
> stamp of single mind.
> 2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
> 3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds
> of
> monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma
> when
> it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling
> about
> the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada.
> It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and
> see
> its truths.
> kind regards
> robert
>
> _____________________________
>
> <<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
> Burma)
> novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
> and
> very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
> web
> at
>
>    http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
>
> Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in
> Daily
> Life" by Nina van Gorkom
> This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
> studied
> like an academic subject. -->>
>
> BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact,
> in my
> experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do
> not
> read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and
> study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various
> formats).
>
> (BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my
> BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study
> the
> subject several years ago ...)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also from Robert:
>
> <<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep
> uppermost
> the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
> concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried
> away in
> metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere
> theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
> what
> one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom
> but I
> believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
> as the
> rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->>
>
> BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which
> one
> should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have
> seen
> many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time
> to
> study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without
> any
> attempt to appy it into daily practice.
>
>

 
4642 From: Marlon McCall   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379

 
  Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar

Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did you 
manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, 
still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible for 
some of the most hideous acts of violence against  Buddhism. Ever since the 
time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and deceit. 
Just read the Pali Cannon and all your  hideous actions will be revealed. 
Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving Jains 
are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his life. 
Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for 
associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in 
their own bad karma.

Buddha Dhamma Sangha
McCall M G

 
4643 From: selamat   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Dear Robert,
anumodana.

selamat
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?


>
>
> Dear Group,
> I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele
> and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list.
> Thought you would like to read an edited version.
> > Hi, Robert -
>
> > <> writes:
>
>  Ultimately only profound, direct
> experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it
> is  clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe
> exact)
>  records of the Buddhas word's.
> robert
>
> > =============================
> >        I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that
> to
> the Sutta
> > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me,
> between the
> > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the
> sense
> that both
> > were composed during a period of centuries following the death
> of
> the Buddha,
> > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half
> centuries
> after the
> > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have
> been
> directly
> > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the
>
> Mahayana
> > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping
> with
> the Nagas
> > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the
> Abhidhamma, the
> > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the
> Buddha
> in the
> > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and
> off on
> the
> > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories.
> >
> > With metta,
> Ø Howard
> Ø __________________
>
> > Dear Howard,
> > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the
> feel of
> > single authorship but there are variations in the way the
> Buddha
> > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with
> the
> > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance.
> > robert
> >
> ===========================
> Mmm, hmm. Agreed.
>
>
> howard
> _______
>
> ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the
> reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after
> the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who
> also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha
> although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are >
> some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't
> ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar
> with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have
> these opinions too"
>
> So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the
> teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the
> first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact
> feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
> Buddha's word.
> 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have
> said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition.
> 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the
> sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who
> taught the suttas.
> 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm
> and that sounds like a fairy story.
>
> Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma
> contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does
> anyone else have any specific points where they think this is
> so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give
> my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far
> Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are
> very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to
> weaken point #4 objection.
> Robert
> _____________
>    > Hi, Robert -
> >
>
> > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the
> sutta
> > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas.
> Howard,
> > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the
> Abhidhamma is
> in
> > > agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the
> Abhidhamma and
> > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it
> might
> have with
> > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-))
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
>
> Buddha's
> > > word.
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people
> believe many
> > things.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> -
> >
> > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva
> realm and
> > > that sounds like a fairy story.
> > >
> > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> > >
> > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the
> > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is
> not
> > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they
> think
> this
> > > is so?
> > >
> > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will
> give my
> > > reasons for not being convinced by them.
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be
> quite
> pleased
> > should you succeed. :-)
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka
> > > there are
> > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken
>
> point #4
> > > objection.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about
> the
> authorship of
> > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright
> violation
> of Aesop's
> > Fables! ;-))
> Howard
> ______________________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole
> of
> the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each
> other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably
> remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit
> in. We
> soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really
> mean?
>
> There are different levels of understanding in theory and
> practice.
> To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which
> is
> so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst)
> there
> has to be insight into many actual dhammas - and that is not
> easy; in
> the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which
> is
> nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The
>
> Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in
> different
> ways. One can test it and see that the world - i.e. what is
> appearing
> at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there.  Will noted in
> the
> end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so- it is the
> truth,
> the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed
> and
> that is why it is called Abhi - higher or ultimate - Dhamma,
> truth.
>
> I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and
> complement
> each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms -
> why
> should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or
> outside
> the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they
> weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on
> understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom
> length
> body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their
> validity -
> I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they
> pertain
> to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the
> story
> of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had
> taken
> a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him
> to
> their homes he endured the pain patiently - he could have killed
> them
> all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the
> bank
> for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it
> always
> conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I
> get
> annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know - how
> could
> we know? But I don't doubt it.
>
> You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later
> Mahayana
> because the commentaries say it was first preached in the
> Tavitimsa
> deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the
> whole
> of the Abhidhamma - one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka.
> You say
> you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know
> right
> throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to
>
> them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the
> Buddha
> or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for
> this
> reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud?
>
> It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called
> into
> question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a
> stain
> and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the
> Abhidhamma
> was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the
> Dhamma,
> among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had
> the
> entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the
> first
> book was also covered  in gems, and  king Vijayabahu  used to
> study
> iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into
> Singhalese.
> In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka -
> just
> look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or
> some of
> the Anguttara nikaya - thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is
> radically
> different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta
> pitaka there are many
> teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve
> senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they
> are
> explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is
> very
> helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an
> object
> for satipatthana vipassana.
>  Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do
> know
> that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The
> Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world
> -
> and in that world there is only  evanescent, conditioned
> phenomena:
> the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to
>
> break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a
>
> doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word,
> nor
> can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they
> can do
> is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that
> are
> arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any
> doubts
> or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha
> become
> nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in
> more
> detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and
> anyone
> else who is reading).
> . Robert
>
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Robert,
> >    A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but
> > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why
> > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to
> > stay awake :-)
> >    But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of
> > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I
> > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the
> > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can
> > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides
> > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find
> > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version
> > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure
> > time of a deva at the moment.
> >    While I do keep a very open mind on the possible
> > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any
> > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy
> > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far
> > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the
> > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's
> > teachings that clearly separate him from all other
> Ø spiritual traditions.
> Ø FK
>
> Ø _______________________
> Ø Dear Fk,
> Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more
>
> praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your
> interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1).
> I
> know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to
> be
> swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this
> list
> there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about
> Abhidhamma
> and are ready to take the time to delve into it.
> Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as
> exciting as
> counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many
> repetitions - it has put me to sleep on many a restless night.
>
> There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the
> Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest
> to
> read and can be studied without too many problems. They get
> increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though)
> until
> the final book - The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is
> so
> difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is,
> however, also the most important and profound as it details the
> numerous interwoven conditions  that arise  at any moment. We
> can't
> just jump in and fathom it though.
> That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
> Burma)
> novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
> and
> very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
> web
> at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
> Once getting through that there is a superb book - Abhidhamma in
>
> Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at
> http://www.dhammastudy.com/
> This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
> studied
> like an academic subject. The different classifications are
> there to
> direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors
> and to
> see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation,
> function, and
> cause(s).   The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the
> Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS)
> The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa
> (matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas (
> the
> aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa,
> defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of
> suffering).
> The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) - satipatthana
> vipassana-
> is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and
> dissecting
> in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in
> the
> Abhidhamma.
> It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is
> one
> of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into
> more
> detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada
>
> (dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even
> at
> the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma)
> sheds
> much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha
> (concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are
> explained
> in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths
> contained in the Sutttanta pitaka.
> It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost
> the
> purpose - to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
> concept
> from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in
> metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere
> theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
> what
> one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom -
> but I
> believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
> as the
> rest of the Tipitaka was and is.
>
> On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper
> aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma
> is a
> theme that runs through every story - and if we can see the
> depth of
> kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach
> us
> well.
> Best wishes
> robert
>
> __________________
>  Dear FK
>
> Now you are lost!!! Condemned.
> I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the
> Abhidhamma
> along the beaches of San Diego.
> Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe
> me!
> Give it a try and also you will discover something very
> meaningful; promise
> I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-)
>
> Love and respectCybele
> _______________
> Hi, Robert -
> >
> >        I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma
> well
> and
> > faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly,
> and I
> certainly
> > do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced
> with
> regard to
> > the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them.
> I far
> more
> > strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras,
> though
> I value
> > many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with
>
> heaven realms
> > or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting
> this
> realm. I
> > tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not.
> It
> is simply
> > my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to
> add
> > authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main
> reasons
> for
> > suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of
> scholar-
> monks is
> > that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that
> modern
> > "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a
> 650-year
> period
> > following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing
> piece
> of work,
> > in any case.
> >
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> ___________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> So finally on this issue we are fairly close.
>
> Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation
> and tone
> of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be
> presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given
> its
> own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it
> was
> first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas.
>
> Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it
> was
> figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has
> the
> stamp of single mind.
> 2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
> 3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds
> of
> monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma
> when
> it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling
> about
> the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada.
> It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and
> see
> its truths.
> kind regards
> robert
>
> _____________________________
>
> <<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
> Burma)
> novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
> and
> very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
> web
> at
>
>    http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
>
> Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in
> Daily
> Life" by Nina van Gorkom
> This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
> studied
> like an academic subject. -->>
>
> BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact,
> in my
> experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do
> not
> read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and
> study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various
> formats).
>
> (BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my
> BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study
> the
> subject several years ago ...)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also from Robert:
>
> <<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep
> uppermost
> the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
> concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried
> away in
> metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere
> theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
> what
> one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom
> but I
> believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
> as the
> rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->>
>
> BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which
> one
> should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have
> seen
> many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time
> to
> study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without
> any
> attempt to appy it into daily practice.
>

 
 
4644 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379

 
  Dear Marlon,
Welcome to the group. You obviously have a sincere confidence in
Buddhism.
We seldom get posts by other religions so I think you don't have
to worry too much about the members here being coaxed away.

BTW do you think the jains of today still follow the beliefs
extant when nigantha nataputta founded the religion or has it
been much modified?
Robert
--- Marlon McCall  wrote:
> Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar
> 
> Jains please stop 


 
4645 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  > This is of course true, but dosa can cause such horrible damage so 
> quickly, that it is good to consider a broader strategy than just 
> satipatthana. Some moments, sati is not well established; dosa 
arises, 
> and conditions just don't allow satipatthana to be wielded 
skillfully. 
> Of course, we should never lose sight of the goal of perfect 
> awareness, but at moments when awareness is quite weak, prevention 
of 
> damage via akusala cittas can also be helpful.


Dear Dan,

I suppose you are right under precise circumstances, but it also 
presupposes one knows exactly the accumulations of the persons 
concerned and in that I think the Buddha would be the only one who 
could tell exactly.  Therefore could we say that if satipatthana 
reminders are not enough other methods should be tried?  And if all 
else fails, we must also accept that conditions were such that it had 
to happen: even the Buddha was unable to stop war between his 
relatives, although he did stop the battles twice, if memory serves.  
Again, all we mortals could ever do is our best in any given 
situation, and accept our limitations as well as others' accumulations 
as such no matter what happens.

You're still high in my personal book of child psychology and kusala 
teachings, anumodana,

Amara

 
4646 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  --- Herman wrote:
> Amara,
> 
> If there is a Pali word that expresses strong agreement with your 
> statements while at the same time not implying that others are not 
> sincere in their beliefs, I am using that word now.
> 
> The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by adherence to human 
> social conventions.
> 
> It is more difficult for a person attached to property of any kind 
to 
> develop insight than just about anything else.
> 
> Gratitude for the strength of insight.
> 
> 
> Herman


Dear Herman,

Thank you for your kind comments, I hope real and deeper insight is 
within our reach in this lifetime as well,

Amara


> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> 
wrote:
> > > Amara
> > > 
> > > > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> > > > the main kamma for 
> > > > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> > > > whatever akusala 
> > > > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> > > > knowledge in 
> > > > anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> > > > also.  We can never 
> > > > really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> > > > we can in any 
> > > > given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> > > > vipaka of the 
> > > > individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> > > > they find the 
> > > > Buddha's teachings.
> > > 
> > > I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
> > > dhamma for distribution through normal publication
> > > (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
> > > perhaps that those who support free distribution must
> > > be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
> > > offered for sale.
> > 
> > 
> > Jon,
> > 
> > Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and 
> > beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala 
> > citta ?  I suppose that is your prerogative.  That I feel 
> differently 
> > is also mine, it would seem.
> > 
> > I still think as I wrote earlier; 
> > 
> > It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of 
> > finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of 
> the 
> > person who first taught it.  Think of what the Buddha did in order 
> to 
> > acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent 
the 
> > rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it.  If memory 
serves 
> he 
> > spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and 
> > alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning 
> and 
> > afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night 
> the 
> > deva and such, for forty five years.  A friend of mine always 
> stressed 
> > that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on 
> > yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the 
dhamma. 
> > 
> > And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma 
> too 
> > much or not.  The times have changed, and certainly not for the 
> > better.  I hope I will always do my best to present the correct 
> dhamma 
> > as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as 
> long 
> > as I am able.  Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great 
> > heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and 
> may 
> > we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that 
> > separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips,
> > 
> > (End quote)
> > 
> > Amara
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
> > > publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
> > > other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
> > > established distribution channels a wider audience can
> > > be reached than would be possible by free
> > > distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
> > > be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
> > > also available for free distribution (for obvious
> > > reasons).  
> > > 
> > > The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
> > > one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
> > > publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
> > > wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
> > > about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

 
4647 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:59pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  > Just wanted to thank you Amara and others for your replies!
> 
> E.


Dear Erik,

I enjoyed your questions and look forward to more,

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
4648 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:04pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 379

 
  Dear Marlon,

Welcome to the discussions!  Great to hear from another member of the 
group, and looking forward to more,

Amara


> Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar
> 
> Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How 
did you 
> manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you 
Jains, 
> still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are 
responsible for 
> some of the most hideous acts of violence against  Buddhism. Ever 
since the 
> time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and 
deceit. 
> Just read the Pali Cannon and all your  hideous actions will be 
revealed. 
> Fellow Buddhists don't let this worm fool you about how peace loving 
Jains 
> are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout 
his life. 
> Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price 
for 
> associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow 
in 
> their own bad karma.
> 
> Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> McCall M G
> 

 
4649 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Thank you very much robert.


rgds

 
4650 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:27pm
Subject: Lobha, upadana and paccaya

 
  Dear K.s Kom and Num, 

I am able to confirm that what I had assumed from reading about the 
paccaya from the 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' is correct.  I checked 
with TA today and it is true that 

1.  Upadana as in upadana khandha is lobha.

2.  Any sankhara can be its object.

3.  Lobha can have anything as object, or arammana, including dosa and 
moha, up to a certain degree.

4.  As paccaya for strong lobha, or arammanadhipati paccaya, there 
must be something very desirable, at that moment dosa, or unpleasant 
feeling, and moha, or ignorance would no longer be arammana.

5.  As arammanupanissaya paccaya, it is from the perspective of an 
arammana that has been experienced before.   TA said for example that 
the untouched glass of beverage before her could not be 
arammanupanissaya paccaya for her since she had not tasted it, 
although after she had it might or might not be that kind of paccaya. 
 As well as be in the right order of arising.  

6.  Different sorts of paccaya could describe the relationships 
between the same citta and cetasika as well as rupa, depending on the 
angle of perception we are studying.

I hope this clears things up a little more,

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
4651 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Utu

 
  Dear friends,

Some time ago (message 1965, etc.) we discussed how plants and other 
forms of rupa grow because of utu (the right temperature), and today 
there is an article that might interest those of us who are intrigued 
by this question:

<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast13apr_1.htm?list430150 > 

Enjoy,

Amara

 
4652 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:45pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Gayan! great to hear from you! And also Leonardo and Selamat.
thank you
Robert



 
4653 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379

 
  Hi -

In a message dated 4/14/01 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
McCall writes:


> Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar
> 
> Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did you 
> manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, 
> still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible 
> for 
> some of the most hideous acts of violence against  Buddhism. Ever since the 
> time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and 
> deceit. 
> Just read the Pali Cannon and all your  hideous actions will be revealed. 
> Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving Jains 
> are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his 
> life. 
> Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for 
> associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in 
> their own bad karma.
> 
> Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> McCall M G
> 
=================================
       I repectfully decline to associate myself with your post. Mahavir 
Sanglika is one person. He is not "Jains". From my reading there is more 
similarity between Jains and Buddhists than between other groups and 
Buddhists. I also recall reading that the Buddha dealt respectfully with the 
Jains as with all religions. In any case, I don't consider your manner of 
speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish to make it clear, by not 
remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4654 From: Erik 
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:18am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 379

 
  --- Howard wrote:

> In a message dated 4/14/01 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> McCall writes:

> > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar
> > Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. 

> =================================
>        I repectfully decline to associate myself with your post. 
Mahavir 
> Sanglika is one person. He is not "Jains". ... In any case, I don't 
consider your manner of 
> speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish to make it 
clear, by not 
> remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only.

Seconded.

 
4655 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379

 
  Dear Howard,

Thanks, and allow me to add my voice to yours.

--- Howard wrote:

> In any case, I don't
> consider your manner of 
> speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish
> to make it clear, by not 
> remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Mercy!  Is is just me, or is it HOT in here?

mike


 
4656 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks for forwarding this.  Your arugments are most
persuasive, as always.

mike


 
4657 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 3:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379

 
  Dear Marlon

I associate myself with Howard on this issue.
I felt quite unconfortable with your post; recently I had a very harsh 
confront with violence myself on the streets of London and I am still 
recovering from it yet gave me a proper insight into my own anger and the 
consistence of my so called 'right understanding' of Dhamma and therefore it 
was a sort of emotional strain sharing your disproportionate reaction about 
the Jains.
In order to express your ardent commitment to Buddhism and your indignation 
to a post you don't agree with the contents you resorted to a verbal 
violence that it was exaggerated and disrespectful.
This is not coherent with Buddhist teachings at all and as buddhists we are 
much more responsible for the evolution or decadence of our 'religion' 
through our mindful or heedless behaviour than any of supposed Jains that 
could have done harm to Buddhism ever.
I would remind you that Mahatma Gandhi himself was associated with the Jain 
movement to lead you to a different perspective where to observe the facts.
Verbal violence express our own hatred as physical violence don't you think 
so and is unmindful and unrestrained behaviour as well.
This is  not a preaching at all Marlon, you are speaking with a very 
passionate person nevertheless confident that not with suppression but 
through awareness I will reach an equilibrium.
All of us claim for fairness but we must try and be fair enough to interact 
with each other. And again I realize that wisdom cannot arise without 
compassion.
Let's anger subside and make an effort to understand the mental process 
engaged on such reactions and this would be wise and useful instead of 
simply storming out against ignorance and delusion when we are ignorant and 
deluded as well. Let's get real and I suppose that this awareness of reality 
as it is, is what Dhamma and Ahidhamma is all about.

Love and respect
Cybele

>
>Hi -
>
>In a message dated 4/14/01 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>McCall writes:
>
>
> > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar
> >
> > Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did 
>you
> > manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains,
> > still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible
> > for
> > some of the most hideous acts of violence against  Buddhism. Ever since 
>the
> > time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and
> > deceit.
> > Just read the Pali Cannon and all your  hideous actions will be 
>revealed.
> > Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving 
>Jains
> > are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his
> > life.
> > Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for
> > associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in
> > their own bad karma.
> >
> > Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> > McCall M G
> >
>=================================
>        I repectfully decline to associate myself with your post. Mahavir
>Sanglika is one person. He is not "Jains". From my reading there is more
>similarity between Jains and Buddhists than between other groups and
>Buddhists. I also recall reading that the Buddha dealt respectfully with 
>the
>Jains as with all religions. In any case, I don't consider your manner of
>speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish to make it clear, by not
>remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only.
>
>With metta,
>Howard
>
>
>/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
>in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
>phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)
>
>


 
4658 From: McCall 
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 0:42pm
Subject: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos

 
  To all devoted Buddhists who might wish to see the most Holiest 
Pictures in Buddhism, included are rare photos of Lord Buddha's 
relics and Holy places of LORD BUDDHA'S travels. 
http://www.buddhism.per.sg/

Buddha Dhamma Sangha
McCall M G

 
 
4659 From: Jon & Sarah 
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: welcome to all new members

 
  Dear Mahavir Sanglikar and Marlon (MG),

Welcome to dsg. We look forward to hearing more about your interest in 
Buddhism if you care to share it and also that of any other new 
members.

Please read the Guidelines for this list carefully:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup
20Guidelines.htm 

If you have any questions about these, please ask us OFF-LIST.

Regards,

Jon & Sarah

 
4660 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala  
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 10:28pm
Subject: Re: diatribes against other religions

 
  Dear Everyone,
May I add my thoughts to those of Howard, Cybele and several others who were
perhaps as embarrassed and saddened as I was to read the the diatribe of one
person against the Jain religion. Though I am woefully ignorant of that
religion and its history, I would wish that anyone feeling enmity against
them would try to cultivate kusala instead of akusala actions in this, and
any other, instance. The cultivation of ubekha, mudita and karuna toward
Jains, and towards anyone else for that matter, would be a far better
demonstration of the greatness of the Lord Buddha's teachings than akusala
invective against another religion.

With metta,
Betty

 
4661 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 0:50am
Subject: Re: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos

 
  > To all devoted Buddhists who might wish to see the most Holiest 
> Pictures in Buddhism, included are rare photos of Lord Buddha's 
> relics and Holy places of LORD BUDDHA'S travels. 
> http://www.buddhism.per.sg/


Dear Marlon,

Thank you for the very interesting pictures of the pilgrimage, it 
looked like a very well researched and detailed trip, anumodana in all 
the kusala citta.  What could be more kusala than visiting these 
places if not perhaps the application of the dhamma taught by the 
Buddha.  Possibly we are luckier than most to have found the dhamma 
and not to have committed great crimes like the murder of 
Mahamoggalana which must be keeping all the Jains involved in the 
unimaginable tortures of hell right this moment and for long eons to 
come.  But our anger or any ill will towards any Jain past or present 
would not increase or influence their vipaka in any way but could 
instead cause us harm, according to the teachings, it could only 
condone to at least our accumulations of akusala thought and even 
actions unnecessarily.  

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to develop the brahma vihara if 
possible, to have metta even for those who try to imply, for whatever 
reason, that the Buddha and Mahavir taught the same things, perhaps 
karuna by helping people find passages in the Tipitaka/Commentaries 
where the differences are explained, for example.  This might help 
those who do not know or remember the events related in the texts on 
this matter better than harsh if sincere words of warning.  And if 
your well intended acts do not bring results upekkha would certainly 
be good, if conditioned to arise.  Of course moments of brahma vihara 
could best be accumulated with the study of realities as well, which 
could render the citta purer, even as you read this message there are 
visible objects, the reality that sees, thihnks, hears, etc., all 
elements with their specific characteristics that could add to your 
knowledge of things as they really are, not 'you' or 'Jains' or anyone 
at all in the end.  This is the best respect you could pay the Buddha 
and his teachings, by proving them for yourself at all times possible.

Without the study and the understanding or the dhamma, the Buddha's 
heritage will disappear indeed, and the world would that much sooner 
sink into ignorance, so once again anumodana with all who study,

Amara

 
4662 From: Num 
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lobha, upadana and paccaya

 
  Hi K.Amara,

Thanks for your follow-up and updating.  I will be pretty busy this whole 
month.  Let see, I have some questions and opinions.

<< 3.  Lobha can have anything as object, or arammana, including dosa and 
 moha, up to a certain degree.

What the difference between lobha and chanda cetasika then?  From 
Dhammastudy.com

<<
Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform.  It arises with 
69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 moha-mula-citta.  This 
is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise without hetu-cetasika 
simultaneously occurring.  As for the moha-mula-citta, even with 
moha-cetasika arising together with them, but since they are without 
concurrent lobha-cetasika or dosa-cetasika, they do not have chanda-cetasika 
arising with them because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is pleased with 
the state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta that 
chanda-cetasika is arising with. >>

<<Lobha-cetasika is the cetasika that is attached to and desirous of the 
arammana. It arises with 8 lobha-mula-citta. >>

So chanda can be pleased with dosa or lobha but not moha.  Now I think that 
dosa and moha cannot be a desirable arammana for lobha.  What do you mean by 
up to certain degree?

 
<<< 4.  As paccaya for strong lobha, or arammanadhipati paccaya, there 
 must be something very desirable, at that moment dosa, or unpleasant 
 feeling, and moha, or ignorance would no longer be arammana.>>>
  
Chanda and viriya can also be sahajatadhipati for lobha-mula-citta. From "the 
Conditionality of Life in Buddhist Teaching" by Nina, << lobha isattached to 
the object it experiences, but it cannot accomplish and enterprise, it's not 
a predominant factor. Chanda which accompanies lobha-mula-citta can be a 
predominant factor in the accomplishment of one's undertakings,.. as 
sahajatadhippati.

I can see that in arammanadhipati, the arammana have to be strongly 
desirable. So dasa, moha-mula-citta or dukkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be 
arammanadhipati paccaya.

Cordialement,

Num

 
4663 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 5:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike)

 
  Mike (and Dan)

Many thanks for your comments on this topic.  You have
raised many good points, and I will do my best to
cover them all.

> "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts
> --
> connected with desire, aversion, or delusion --
> arise
> in a monk while he is referring to and attending to
> a
> particular theme. He should attend to another theme,
> apart from that one, connected with what is
> skillful.
> When he is attending to this other theme, apart from
> that one, connected with what is skillful, then
> those
> evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire,
> aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside.
...
> Majjhima Nikaya 20
> Vitakkasanthana Sutta
> The Relaxation of Thoughts
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html

I don’t see the passage from the Vitakkasanthana Sutta
(M. 20) as dealing with the question of whether, and
if so how, akusala arising in our daily lives can
should be dealt with.

As Dan notes in his post following yours, the passage
in question is given in the context of attaining
jhana.  We have discussed in previous posts the
differences between samatha and vipassana.  One of
those differences is that while akusala arising at the
present moment constitutes an obstacle to the
cultivation of samatha, it is not an obstacle to the
development of satipatthana, since any reality can be
the object of satipatthana.  [Dan, the question of the
hindrances (nivarana) is not the issue here, although
there is an important distinction to be discussed in
this regard also.]

In an earlier series of posts we discussed the
preceding sutta, M. 19 ‘Two Kinds of Thought’.  There
also, the Buddha talks about the abandonment of
unwholesome thoughts.  Again, the context is the
higher levels of samatha.  Those who have attained to
these higher levels have developed a very acute
appreciation of the difference between moments of
kusala and moments of subtle akusala.  We on the other
hand are not even aware of relatively strong akusala
most of the time, and we are simply not capable of
recognising the more subtle levels of akusala such as
those arising with 'ordinary' moments of seeing and
hearing in our daily lives.

It is important to appreciate the significance of
this, since it is tempting to think that the practice
is or should be all about having less akusala in our
lives right now.  This is an expectation we must learn
to recognise for what it is--a thought conditioned by
our strong ideas (ie. views) of the path.

> > Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned
> > at
> > will, nor akusala made to disappear.  Any idea of
> > 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of
> one
> > kind or another.
> 
> Ideas aren't paramattha dhammas, are they?  Aren't
> they much more likely to be compounded of kusala and
> akusala than to be purely one or the other?  If an
> idea, for example, arises which prevents akusala
> kammapatha--say, "I won't insult this guy because
> that
> would be wrong speech, which conduces to self-harm
> and
> to the harm of others"--then isn't the result partly
> kusala even though the idea is informed with the
> delusion of self?
> 
> You aren't suggesting that insight into paramattha
> dhamma is the only kusala, are you?

Mike, I think there is no disagreement here.  If I may
paraphrase, there are times when useful reflection can
condition restraint from performing akusala.  This of
course is kusala.  All levels of kusala can be a
condition for there to be less akusala in our lives,
including:

-  the development over an extensive period of time of
countervailing wholesome qualities
-  a moment of wholesome restraint
-  in the case of one developing the higher levels of
samatha, the means mentioned in M. 19 and M. 20
-  the arising of a moment of satipatthana

But understanding this is not the same as having the
idea that the kusala now arising can or should be
dealt with in some way because it is counterproductive
to one's practice, and that it can be replaced by
kusala if only we try hard enough.  These sorts of
ideas (ie. views) tend to lead one to think of the
experience of, say, a moment of true wholesome
restraint as a tactic/strategy/technique for dealing
with akusala whenever it arises.  However, this will
simply lead to the akusala being replaced by other
akusala masquerading as kusala, and this in turn
serves only to reinforce wrong view.

Once, however, we realize that it is not the akusala
that has already arisen that is the enemy, but that
the wrong view of the practice certainly is, then it
no longer matters, as far as the development of the
path is concerned that there is a lot of akusala in
our lives.  Of course, we may still react with dosa to
the strong akusala that arises (*my* strong
akusala(!)), but that is simply more akusala, a
manifestation of our accumuated tendencies (anusaya).

...

> Deeds of Merit
> 
> Sujin Boriharnwanaket
> 
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html
> 
> > If we think about it for a moment, what is the
> > reason
> > for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with? 
> After
> > all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do
> > not
> > see the need to deal with, because it is
> accompanied
> > by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
> > feeling.
> 
> This is certainly true.  If you are no longer
> subject
> to coarse akusala, my admiration (and envy) is
> boundless.  I still live with (quite painful) coarse
> akusala every day and the illusion of self every
> moment.  If very coarse and medium kusala--all
> interspersed (and seemingly intermingled) with the
> illusion of self--didn't arise regularly to mitigate
> speech and action based on coarse and medium
> akusala,
> I might be writing to this list from a homeless
> shelter or prison--assuming I were still alive.
> 
> If the inclination to evil speech or action--along
> with the unpleasant feeling attending coarse
> akusala--is eliminated, then it's kusala, even
> though
> the anusaya is left untouched.  That it's a coarser
> kind of kusala than insight into one of the
> paramattha
> dhammas doesn't make it akusala or adhamma.  OF
> COURSE
> sammasati of the eightfold path is a higher degree
> of
> kusala than is simple restraint from evil speech or
> action--but is there really any virtue in
> discouraging
> coarse kusala because it isn't refined enough? 
> Isn't
> this making the best the enemy of the good?   

We all have heaps of course akusala arising in our
lives.  It is our aversion to that situation, and our
belief that it constitutes a detriment to the path,
that makes us want to 'deal with' it.  But once we
understand and accept that it isn't going to go away,
it makes it easier to see how straightforward the task
really is.

> > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not
> > the
> > same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> > appears at the present moment.  This is a
> difficult
> > proposition to accept, but one well worth
> > considering
> > sometime.
> 
> Can 'we' choose not to 'target any reality' or to
> 'study/be aware of the reality that appears at the
> present moment"?  It may seem so, "but given that
> both...are conditioned and not-self this could not
> be
> so."  

You are right in suggesting that it is not 'we' who
'chooses' either the right or the wrong path.

> Probably I've misunderstood (as usual) everything
> you've said as well as everything I've read in the
> tipitaka and everything I've ever experienced.  If
> so,
> my apologies for just another akusala reflection
> from
> your deluded friend,
> 
> mike

Mike, your comments are much appreciated.  Differences
of view are not delusions, just areas for discussion! 
Great to have you back in action.

Jon



 
4664 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 5:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  Dan (and Mike)

I can see we are as far apart as ever!

Nevertheless, I would like to make some general
comments that I hope address all your detailed remarks
(for which, my thanks - I have discussed one or two of
your particular points in my reply to Mike just
posted).

I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the
Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more
kusala.  In essence, he taught the development of the
understanding that leads to the eradication of
ignorance.  It is ignorance that must be overcome if
all akusala is to be eradicated.  Consider this
passage from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha [CMA
translation] on the hindrances (nivarana):

"#8:  Six hindrances:  the hindrances of (1) sensual
desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4)
restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance.

Guide to #8:  The hindrances are so called because
they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to the
attainment of Nibbana.  According to the commentary
the hindrances are mental factors which prevent
unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do
not allow arisen wholesome states to endure.  The
first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the
attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the
major obstacle to the arising of wisdom." [ends]

The wisdom or understanding that is to be developed is
the understanding of the characteristic of a reality
appearing at the present moment.  This may be any
reality - nama or rupa, internal or external, gross or
subtle.  A moment of awareness of, say, visible
object, is every bit as valuable as a moment of
awareness of an unwholesome mental state, and of
course much more valuable than a moment of kusala that
is not of the level of satipatthana.  Once the full
significance of this is understood, then the exact
nature of the citta arising at the present moment
ceases to be a matter of major concern as far as the
development of the path is concerned.

It is of course only natural to want to have less
akusala and more kusala, since we know that the
eradication of all kilesa occurs when the goal is
reached.  But a preoccupation with the quality of the
citta arising at the present moment tends to lead us
away from the development of awareness of the reality
that is appearing at the present moment - whether it
be nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or
external, gross or subtle - and of understanding that
reality as it really is.

Jon

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Dear Jon,

> Thanks for the intriguing and (as always) insightful
> post. I do have 
> some questions and comments, though.
> 
> Jon:
> > I don't think we can say that any of these tactics
> are
> > 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  
> 
> Dan:
> I'm having difficulty understanding your comments.
> "Kusala" has a 
> number of different meanings. One is sensu
> "wholesome, good," as it 
> applies to cittas. This CAN'T be what you mean
> because when applying 
> any sort of "tactic" many cittas arise and pass
> away, some of them 
> kusala and some of them akusala. If a certain tactic
> gives rise to a 
> preponderance of kusala cittas, is it a kusala
> tactic? That doesn't 
> make sense either because some "good" tactics may
> well lead to a 
> preponderance of akusala cittas in some situations
> or with some 
> people, while some "bad" tactics may well lead to a
> preponderance of 
> kusala cittas in some situations or with some
> people. What's critical 
> is how skillfully the tactic is managed. It is
> skilful use of a tactic 
> that is kusala, not the tactic per se. This can't be
> what you mean 
> either because you were referring to the tactic, not
> the kusala or 
> akusala use of a tactic.
> 
> I'd say kusala (skilful) use of these tactics is
> helpful for turning 
> the balance of cittas towards the kusala (wholesome)
> rather than 
> akusala. I presume that is why these tactics were
> expounded by Buddha 
> in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta (MN 20), which mike was
> kind enough to 
> quote for us. Of course, he was suggesting them as
> aids in attaining 
> jhana in formal meditation. Does this mean that they
> can't be helpful 
> in everyday living too? Hardly, but as far as I
> know, Buddha was 
> silent on this question. Instead, we have to rely on
> our own 
> experience, guided by careful reflection on Dhamma,
> to determine if 
> skilful use of a tactic is helpful or not.
> 
> Jon:
> > It may *seem*
> > as though the akusala has been suppressed or has
> been
> > replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
> > realities are conditioned and not-self this could
> not
> > be so.  
> 
> Dan:
> If the akusala cittas are not suppressed, or are not
> replaced by 
> kusala, I wonder why Buddha would suggest the
> tactics. Both kinds of 
> realities are of course conditioned, but conditioned
> by what? 
> Conditioned by chanda (for deliverance), intention,
> strong 
> determination, viriya, sati. Recognizing the danger
> and emptiness and 
> pain to oneself and to others in the akusala, there
> is desire for 
> deliverance from the akusala. There is the intention
> to work for 
> deliverance, and there is effort. Mindfulness checks
> the cittas 
> against the Dhamma: "Hmmm... akusala cittas. The
> tactic is not being 
> used skillfully. Adjust." Or: "Hmmm... kusala
> cittas. How did these 
> arise? Make note of that (for later use by the OTHER
> definition of 
> sati, viz. memory)." Kusala and akusala cittas are
> indeed conditioned. 
> Some of the conditions are intimately associated
> with what we call 
> "trying" in ordinary language. Without "trying", the
> ratio of kusala 
> cittas to akusala cittas will not increase.
> Certainly, we need to be 
> careful of the word "trying" because akusala
> (unskilful)  "trying" 
> conditions akusala (like tension) while kusala
> (skilful) "trying" 
> conditions kusala.
> 
> Jon:
> > Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at
> > will, nor akusala made to disappear.  
> 
> Dan:
> Again, I don't understand what you mean. Clearly,
> the arising of 
> kusala and disappearance of akusala are kamma, not
> vipaka; active, not 
> passive. This is just the basics of right view.
> Without the volition 
> to make kusala arise or akusala to disappear, there
> will be no result. 
> 
> It depends on what you mean by "will", of course.
> Chanda, intention, 
> effort, and sati are necessary conditions.
> Skillfully applied "will" 
> leads to arising of kusala and disappearance of
> akusala. A helpful 
> strategy (not tactic) is to work at making sure
> efforts are skilful. 
> And, yes, a big part of that work is to make sure
> that we do not try 
> to control kusala and akusala. Instead of trying to
> control dhammas, 
> skilful effort involves sati always checking the
> indriya for 
> rightness. When the indriya are right, strong, and
> well-balanced, 
> kusala is summoned and akusala is made to disappear.
> 
> 
> Jon:
> > Any idea of 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be
> akusala of one
> > kind or another.
> 
> Dan:
> It isn't clear to me what you mean by "'dealing
> with' is bound to be 
> akusala..." On the night of his enlightenment,
> Buddha dealt skillfully 
> with the fear and dread that arose. His
> enlightenment was conditioned 
> by skilful "dealing with" akusala. 
> 
> Jon:
> > If we think about it for a moment, what is the
> reason
> > for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  
> 
> Dan:
> Dosa is one of the three roots of evil whose
> eradication conditions 
> enlightenment. Eradication of the root is
> conditioned by effort and 
> intention. The effort and intention are kamma, not
> vipaka; volition, 
> not result. Without the volition to deal skillfully
> with dosa, the 
> root cannot be eradicated. 
> 
> Jon:
> > After all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that
> we do not
> > see the need to deal with, because it is
> accompanied
> > by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
> > feeling.
> 
> Dan:
> This is true. That may be why Buddha (or
> commentary?) said that dosa 
> was the easiest to make progress on eliminating
> (Something like: 
> "Hatred is a serious fault that fades quickly.
> Attachment is a less 
> serious fault that fades slowly").
> 
> Also true that some akusala is more damaging than
> others. Targeting 
> the most damaging akusala makes a lot more sense
> than targeting the 
> most subtle. When progress is made on eradicating
> the gross kilesa, 
> the target shifts more towards the medium kilesa.
> When the gross 
> kilesa are prominent, the medium kilesa cannot even
> be seen! When 
> progress is made on eradicating the medium kilesa,
> the target shifts 
> more towards the subtle kilesa. When the medium
> kilesa are prominent, 
> the subtle kilesa cannot even be seen, let alone
> eliminated.
> 
=== message truncated ===



 
4665 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:46pm
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike)

 
  Dear Jon,
You seem to be reading mike's and my comments more narrowly than 
necessary. The concern here is the risk of, in mike's lovely phrase, 
"making the best the enemy of the good." 

Kusala is better than akusala. For those of us who have not attained 
arahantship, it is important to keep this in mind. 

Dan

 
4666 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 7:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear Rob,

This is very good news (i.e. that you're in dialogue
w/B.Bodhi on this and he's considering and trying to
be helpful). I actually have a lot of sympathy with
publishers like BPS who have to consider many factors.
When one shows respect and appreciation for their role
and decisions, as you are showing clearly on this
issue, there doesn't need to be any 'bickering' or
discord.

In the case of the Thai Visuddhimagga, the translator
is unknown and the case is quite different.

Even when copyright has been waived (as with some of
Nina's books for example), Khun Sujin was stressing to
me (last night) the importance of courtesy and respect
and the importance of asking permission to use any
materials; in other words to act as if there were
copyright.  

I always stress to my students the moral and legal
reasons why any forms of plagiarism are such a no-no
too. With our interest in Buddhism, I think we should
all be setting a very good example in these aspects of
sila.

Anumodana for your prompt care in this regard after
Teng fortunately raised the subject.

Back to the unpacking, more tomorrow, I hope! We flew
back with Ansett and in spite of our concerns about
delays and cancellations, we had one of the best
flights imaginable - ahead of schedule, lots of space,
excellent service and so on. We never know what good
or bad fortune is in store, do we (even
conventionally)?

Sarah


--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > 
> Dear group,
> I just got a message from venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi
> saying he has
> thought some more about the Visuddhimagga issue and
> he now asks
> me to leave the chapters on the web as he thinks it
> will be of
> benefit. I will clarify with him how many chapters
> he thinks is
> suitable.
> robert
> 



 
4667 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 7:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the note. Ven. Bodhi, of course, has no interest in
profits or money, nor in keeping the Dhamma to a select few; he
is simply trying to consider the best way to distribute these
priceless materials. Copyright is complex even for him- the
chief editor of BPS- as his change of mind indicates.
. 
DO I gather from your note that you are back in Hong Kong - or
have you just arrived in Bangkok?
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Rob,
> 
> This is very good news (i.e. that you're in dialogue
> w/B.Bodhi on this and he's considering and trying to
> be helpful). I actually have a lot of sympathy with
> publishers like BPS who have to consider many factors.
> When one shows respect and appreciation for their role
> and decisions, as you are showing clearly on this
> issue, there doesn't need to be any 'bickering' or
> discord.
> 
> 


 
4668 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan)

 
  Dan

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Dear Jon,
> You seem to be reading mike's and my comments more
> narrowly than 
> necessary. The concern here is the risk of, in
> mike's lovely phrase, 
> "making the best the enemy of the good." 

Many thanks for mentioning this and for giving me the
opportunity to say, categorically, that I think every
kind of kusala is enormously important and, just to
make that clear, that includes kusala of the level of
dana, sila and samatha as well as vipassana.

The reason that this may not be apparent from my posts
is that I much prefer to discuss vipassana bhavana
since this is the teaching that is unique to the
Buddhas.  There are precious few lifetimes when we
have the opportunity to meet such a teaching.

My posts to you and Mike are in response to the
suggestion made or implied (correctly on my part, I
trust) that:
-  strong akusala which arises can and should be
replaced by kusala or at least subdued, and
-  such a practice is an aspect of the path leading to
Nibbana taught by the Buddha.

I think the first is neither necessary or possible,
and I have tried to indicate why this might be so.  I
think the second is an understandable but mistaken
view of the doctrine.

> Kusala is better than akusala. For those of us who
> have not attained 
> arahantship, it is important to keep this in mind. 

I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is better
implies that there is something we can do about the
akusala that has already arisen.  I would prefer to
say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala, and we
should get to know more about each by being aware of
the characteristic of it as it arises.  There is no
need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it is
just another reality to be known.

Dan, I don't mean to sound dogmatic here.  I have
simply tried to summarise in brief.  Happy to discuss
further any time, with sutta references.

Jon


 
4669 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:55pm
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan)

 
  > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is better
> implies that there is something we can do about the
> akusala that has already arisen. 
Suppose strong dosamulacittani arise again and again in the course of 
a conversation with some "unreasonable person". How do we deal with 
it? One option is to kill the other person. But there are many other 
ways to deal with that arising dosa too. Most of the other ways would 
be more beneficial. Most of the other ways are conventional teachings, 
expressed in conventional ways, but there isn't a lot of benefit in 
talking about electrons, proton, and neutrons when I just want to fix 
the brakes on my bike...

Just because the Buddha taught some unique and most beautiful aspects 
of Dhamma does not mean that other aspects are to be avoided. In fact, 
there is a great deal of non-unique, non-ultimate teaching (sila, 
kusala, upekkha, metta, mudita, jhana, samadhi, etc.) in the Dhamma 
that Buddha expounded in the suttas.

 
4670 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Dan (and Mike)

Hi Jon,

> I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the
> Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more
> kusala.  In essence, he taught the development of the
> understanding that leads to the eradication of
> ignorance.  It is ignorance that must be overcome if
> all akusala is to be eradicated.  

I do consider the treatment on kusala and akusala more valuable in 
most instances for most people. For most people--and by this I mean 
those who are nowhere near the level of true insight--this is more 
important than developing vipassana nana. You mention the nivaranas. 
Those nivaranas will prevent any deep vipassanana nana from arising 
if they are not pacified, as you noted. It is also extremely 
important to have accumulated large stocks of merit if one has any 
hope for the arising of magga & phala nana. Accumulating kusala is 
the only way I know of to effect this, excepting in those cases there 
is already enough merit and wisdom present from previous activities.

And I consider all the Dharma as a strategy (never anything else), 
with countless tactics available to choose from. I also find the 
notions of strategy & tactic a powerful antidote to ditthupadana and 
miccha ditthi when it comes to determining what is Dhamma and what is 
not. That is why I accept the Abhidhamma and all the Mahayana sutras 
as authentic Dhamma, even if they weree never technically spoken by 
the historical Shakyamuni Buddha.

> The wisdom or understanding that is to be developed is
> the understanding of the characteristic of a reality
> appearing at the present moment.  This may be any
> reality - nama or rupa, internal or external, gross or
> subtle.  A moment of awareness of, say, visible
> object, is every bit as valuable as a moment of
> awareness of an unwholesome mental state, and of
> course much more valuable than a moment of kusala that
> is not of the level of satipatthana.  Once the full
> significance of this is understood, then the exact
> nature of the citta arising at the present moment
> ceases to be a matter of major concern as far as the
> development of the path is concerned.

This is interesting, though I do not believe applies as readily to 
jhana meditators, who emphasize cultivating these levels of vipassana 
nana (combined with samatha) alternating with the jhanas, and usually 
spend time outside meditation accumulating kusala (while of course 
always applying sati in daily life). 

> It is of course only natural to want to have less
> akusala and more kusala, since we know that the
> eradication of all kilesa occurs when the goal is
> reached.  But a preoccupation with the quality of the
> citta arising at the present moment tends to lead us
> away from the development of awareness of the reality
> that is appearing at the present moment - whether it
> be nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or
> external, gross or subtle - and of understanding that
> reality as it really is.

That is perhaps your experience, but my experience is exactly 
opposite. To wit, by keeping mindful of what's arising in my mind now 
I have been able to short-circuit habitual akusala reactions that 
would have arisen absent this type sati. And again this kusala serves 
as an indispensible condition for the arising of lokuttara vipassana 
nana. Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness 
(Maha-Satipatthana Sutta):

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There 
is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that 
the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns 
that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he 
discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without 
aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the 
mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the 
mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without 
delusion."

That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that observing mental states 
is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha. But to hell with the 
writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. What I know is 
that this tactic works extremely well from my own experience, that 
this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful states of mind 
and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such is in 100% accord 
with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in the final 
analysis, is all that matters.

Gassho,
Erik

 
4671 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Lobha, upadana and paccaya

 
  > << 3.  Lobha can have anything as object, or arammana, including 
dosa and 
>  moha, up to a certain degree.
> 
> What the difference between lobha and chanda cetasika then?  From 
> Dhammastudy.com
> 
> <<
> Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform.  It 
arises with 
> 69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 
moha-mula-citta.  This 
> is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise without hetu-cetasika 
> simultaneously occurring.  As for the moha-mula-citta, even with 
> moha-cetasika arising together with them, but since they are without 
> concurrent lobha-cetasika or dosa-cetasika, they do not have 
chanda-cetasika 
> arising with them because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is 
pleased with 
> the state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta 
that 
> chanda-cetasika is arising with. >>
> 
> <<Lobha-cetasika is the cetasika that is attached to and desirous of 
the 
> arammana. It arises with 8 lobha-mula-citta. >>

Dear K Num,

Personally I think of chandha as enjoyment and desire to do something 
mentally or physically; while lobha is the attachment and clinging 
even when one is 'inactive' except when accumulating tendencies, which 
is automatic in any case.  There can be chandha in the study of 
dhamma, as well as in akusala such as hunting, killing something.  But 
perhaps no attachment to either, no lobha to possess the dhamma or to 
have this or that level of understanding, just enjoyment in the 
accumulation of knowledge as the occasion arises.  Nor the desire to 
kill again and again, perhaps like some soldiers who did their duty 
during battles without the desire to repeat that in peaceful times.  

> So chanda can be pleased with dosa or lobha but not moha.  Now I 
think that 
> dosa and moha cannot be a desirable arammana for lobha.  What do you 
mean 
> by up to certain degree?
> 
>  
> <<< 4.  As paccaya for strong lobha, or arammanadhipati paccaya, 
there 
>  must be something very desirable, at that moment dosa, or 
unpleasant 
>  feeling, and moha, or ignorance would no longer be arammana.>>>


As I understand it for most people there are ordinary arammana that 
cause imperceptible lobha and dosa, such as waking up feeling fresh 
and rested or not so pleasantly.  Then there are arammana that are so 
compelling that we travel to see it or hear it, etc. to experience or 
obtain it.  Khun Sujin once used a jewelry store as an example; which 
could cause lobha in some people they dream about certain pieces and 
have to go back to get it.  (She herself never wears jewelry that I 
ever saw.)  My point is that it must be something conventionally 
thought to be a 'good' arammana, not 'garbage and gore' for which one 
has strong attachment to in order to be a very strong birthplace or 
arammanadhipati paccaya.  Or one might be pleased with a floral 
arrangement to look at and smell, but not enough to want to take it 
home, while some children could skip a meal (or try to) or hours of 
sleep to play a video game.  The degrees of attachment and desire can 
vary greatly with accumulations and the arammana appearing.  

> Chanda and viriya can also be sahajatadhipati for lobha-mula-citta. 
From "the 
> Conditionality of Life in Buddhist Teaching" by Nina, << lobha is 
attached to 
> the object it experiences, but it cannot accomplish and enterprise, 
it's not 
> a predominant factor. Chanda which accompanies lobha-mula-citta can 
be a 
> predominant factor in the accomplishment of one's undertakings,.. as 
> sahajatadhippati.
> 
> I can see that in arammanadhipati, the arammana have to be strongly 
> desirable. So dasa, moha-mula-citta or dukkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be 
> arammanadhipati paccaya.

Exactly!  Looking forward to more of your questions and anumodana in 
your studies, as always.  I wouldn't presume to tell you to take care 
of your health, it sounds like you have a well balanced plan to work, 
exercise and study making the best use of your time, so I send you my

Meilleux voeux,

Amara

> Cordialement,

 
4672 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya"

 
  Hi, all -

       I'd like to make a brief comment on the beginning of the "Summary of 
the 24 Paccaya" in relation to reservations I had expressed about 'sabhava' 
and about translating 'paramattha dhamma' as "reality" instead of something 
like "actuality" because of my fear of substantialism/essentialism. In this 
regard, I find the following most heartening!

******************************************************************************

****
Summary of the 24 Paccaya 
by Sujin Boriharnwanaket 
translated by Amara-Varee >
>When we understand the characteristics of the citta and cetasika that arise 
together and how each is the paccaya on which the other depends, one would 
gradually attenuate the attachment that mistakes realities for entities, 
people and the selves.  

******************************************************************************

*****

       Note, in particular, the talk of mistaking "realities for entities"!! 
This certainly takes the sting out of the term 'realities' for me! :-)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


 
4673 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Dear Sarah and all

Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral infection and therefore I am 
still here. I should start working in a pub to pay off my expenses, I can 
hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at all but sure I can't 
complain about boredom.
I met some members of the list as well and that VERY warm hearted American 
couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very much; they send regards.
I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my friends here are Irish or 
foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with Victoria, so nice and 
sweet.
I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I am stuck here in London 
and probably will miss him.
Please if there are other London members listening, please contact me - I 
would like to meet you in real life if you are interested, my virus is not 
contagious promise!

Sarah wrote:
>We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of
>bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality
>that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day
>with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and
>efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go
>which made it all easy...>

Wow Sarah he must be my soul mate, if I ever come to Australia I have to 
arrange and meet him; a buddhist not 'limpwristed and mummy style' and very 
'dynamic' and perhaps 'even warm hearted'.
Don't worry Antony I am so far away, I am not going to threaten your virtue!
Dear Sarah enjoy your trip and hope to meet you somewhere, somehow in my 
crazy life!

Lots of love
Cybele


 
 
4674 From: Herman 
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:07am
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan)

 
  Hi, everyone


--- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Dan
> 
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Dear Jon,
> > You seem to be reading mike's and my comments more
> > narrowly than 
> > necessary. The concern here is the risk of, in
> > mike's lovely phrase, 
> > "making the best the enemy of the good." 
> 
> Many thanks for mentioning this and for giving me the
> opportunity to say, categorically, that I think every
> kind of kusala is enormously important and, just to
> make that clear, that includes kusala of the level of
> dana, sila and samatha as well as vipassana.
> 
> The reason that this may not be apparent from my posts
> is that I much prefer to discuss vipassana bhavana
> since this is the teaching that is unique to the
> Buddhas.  There are precious few lifetimes when we
> have the opportunity to meet such a teaching.
> 
> My posts to you and Mike are in response to the
> suggestion made or implied (correctly on my part, I
> trust) that:
> -  strong akusala which arises can and should be
> replaced by kusala or at least subdued, and
> -  such a practice is an aspect of the path leading to
> Nibbana taught by the Buddha.
> 
> I think the first is neither necessary or possible,
> and I have tried to indicate why this might be so.  I
> think the second is an understandable but mistaken
> view of the doctrine.
> 
> > Kusala is better than akusala. For those of us who
> > have not attained 
> > arahantship, it is important to keep this in mind. 
> 
> I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is better
> implies that there is something we can do about the
> akusala that has already arisen.  I would prefer to
> say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala,

This I understand.

 and we
> should get to know more about each by being aware of
> the characteristic of it as it arises. 

And this I do not understand. What is this "shoulding"? How 
does "shoulding" arise? I think mixing Abhidhamma modes of expression 
and conventional modes of expression is fatal to understanding.

 There is no
> need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it is
> just another reality to be known.

If fazing arises , isn't it just so, nothing more nothing less?

> 
> Dan, I don't mean to sound dogmatic here.  I have
> simply tried to summarise in brief.  Happy to discuss
> further any time, with sutta references.
> 
> Jon
> 

Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your opinion, there can be 
directed effort towards a goal?


Kind Regards

Herman

 
4675 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 0:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya"

 
  Dear howard,
Thanks for your continuing investigations. Also this is from the
foreword to Sujin Boriharnwanaket's book "Realities and
concepts"
"The Påli terms actually promote clarity
as their meaning is precise; they are used because the
English equivalents are too approximate and have
varying connotations. Reality, for instance, is the usual
translation of 'dhamma'. It can also be translated as phenomenon
or thing. Yet all of these english terms may imply something
substantial whereas 'dhammas' are fundamentally evanescent."
endquote
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, all -
> 
>        I'd like to make a brief comment on the beginning of
> the "Summary of 
> the 24 Paccaya" in relation to reservations I had expressed
> about 'sabhava' 
> and about translating 'paramattha dhamma' as "reality" instead
> of something 
> like "actuality" because of my fear of
> substantialism/essentialism. In this 
> regard, I find the following most heartening!
> 
>
******************************************************************************
> 
> ****
> Summary of the 24 Paccaya 
> by Sujin Boriharnwanaket 
> translated by Amara-Varee >
> >When we understand the characteristics of the citta and
> cetasika that arise 
> together and how each is the paccaya on which the other
> depends, one would 
> gradually attenuate the attachment that mistakes realities for
> entities, 
> people and the selves.  
> 
>
******************************************************************************
> 
> *****
> 
>        Note, in particular, the talk of mistaking "realities
> for entities"!! 
> This certainly takes the sting out of the term 'realities' for
> me! :-)
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                


 
4676 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya"

 
  Dear Howard & Robert,

...and may I add that it is the understanding when
using the term that is the key,

As we know, it's not difficult to read all the
Tipitaka (including the abhidhamma) with the wrong
view of self.

If we talk about 'seeing' as a 'reality' it means
different things to different people according to the
degree of wisdom accumulated.

If we use 'paramattha dhamma', it may be more precise,
but still will be blinkered according to what we've
heard and considered. For example, many Pali terms
have conventional counterparts in Thai which I
understand carry very different meanings.

The more panna (right understanding) develops and
knows the 'realities' directly, the less confusion
there is.

Thanks for both your posts.

Sarah

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear
howard,
> Thanks for your continuing investigations. Also this
> is from the
> foreword to Sujin Boriharnwanaket's book "Realities
> and
> concepts"
> "The Påli terms actually promote clarity
> as their meaning is precise; they are used because
> the
> English equivalents are too approximate and have
> varying connotations. Reality, for instance, is the
> usual
> translation of 'dhamma'. It can also be translated
> as phenomenon
> or thing. Yet all of these english terms may imply
> something
> substantial whereas 'dhammas' are fundamentally
> evanescent."



 
4677 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear Rob,

 wrote:

> Thanks for the note. Ven. Bodhi, of course, has no
> interest in
> profits or money, nor in keeping the Dhamma to a
> select few; he
> is simply trying to consider the best way to
> distribute these
> priceless materials. Copyright is complex even for
> him- the
> chief editor of BPS- as his change of mind
> indicates.

Yes..and considering what is most useful in the
long-term as well as the short-term for sharing the
dhamma is also not easy and not always popular (as the
moderator of any dhamma list can confirm!!), but we
all just do our best at the time. I appreciate his
careful consideration on this. 

> DO I gather from your note that you are back in Hong
> Kong - or
> have you just arrived in Bangkok?

In H.K. and Bkk end of next week. Sorry for any
confusion. I was speaking to KS by phone. Look f/w to
seeing Bkk listies then (Sat at Foundation- all day!)

Sarah 



 
4678 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Rob,

Thanks for sharing this discussion. 

I don't think anyone can fail to be impressed by your
sincere study, consideration and interest in
abhidhamma. I'm sure you inspire us all to read more
(though I can still only 'dip' into the Patthana
rather than read cover to cover like you!). Thank you
for sharing your enthusiasm and relevant comments.

For me, I had the good fortune to be taught abhidhamma
by Khun sujin from the outset and so I never saw it as
a dry, academic subject but always as a living,
dynamic explanation of life to be proved at this
moment. As a result, I never doubted or wondered about
the authenticity, but I'm finding these discussions
very interesting and useful.

Thanks to all who participated. 

Sarah

 wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Group,
> I've been having an interesting discussion with
> Howard, Cybele
> and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on
> another list.
> Thought you would like to read an edited version.



 
4679 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos

 
  Amara,

May I say that I thought your message below was
particularly skilful and helpful.

Like others on the list, I sometimes react with dosa
to messages which seem to be 'attacking' with wrong
speech. However we justify this dosa at the time, it
is the dosa rather than the arammana (object) that is
the problem at that moment. This doesn't mean that we
shouldn't take action or say something to prevent the
other's further wrong speech, but I think if we can
give helpful reminders with wise speech (as you've
done), this is always best.

Thank you for this.

Sarah> 
> 
> Dear Marlon,

>..  Possibly we are luckier than most to have
> found the dhamma 
> and not to have committed great crimes like the
> murder of 
> Mahamoggalana which must be keeping all the Jains
> involved in the 
> unimaginable tortures of hell right this moment and
> for long eons to 
> come.  But our anger or any ill will towards any
> Jain past or present 
> would not increase or influence their vipaka in any
> way but could 
> instead cause us harm, according to the teachings,
> it could only 
> condone to at least our accumulations of akusala
> thought and even 
> actions unnecessarily.  
> 
> Perhaps this is a good opportunity to develop the
> brahma vihara if 
> possible, to have metta even for those who try to
> imply, for whatever 
> reason, that the Buddha and Mahavir taught the same
> things, perhaps 
> karuna by helping people find passages in the
> Tipitaka/Commentaries 
> where the differences are explained, for example. 
> This might help 
> those who do not know or remember the events related
> in the texts on 
> this matter better than harsh if sincere words of
> warning.  And if 
> your well intended acts do not bring results upekkha
> would certainly 
> be good, if conditioned to arise.  Of course moments
> of brahma vihara 
> could best be accumulated with the study of
> realities as well, which 
> could render the citta purer, even as you read this
> message there are 
> visible objects, the reality that sees, thihnks,
> hears, etc., all 
> elements with their specific characteristics that
> could add to your 
> knowledge of things as they really are, not 'you' or
> 'Jains' or anyone 
> at all in the end.  This is the best respect you
> could pay the Buddha 
> and his teachings, by proving them for yourself at
> all times possible.
> 
> Without the study and the understanding or the
> dhamma, the Buddha's 
> heritage will disappear indeed, and the world would
> that much sooner 
> sink into ignorance, so once again anumodana with
> all who study,
> 
> Amara



 
4680 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Dear Cybele,

I'm so glad you found our American friends so
warm-hearted. We miss them here! They met K.Sujin here
and have some interest in Buddhism (well Neil does),
but no luck in having them join the list...maybe
you'll be more persuasive!  (Rob, it was their flat in
new World which you stayed in when you came to H.K.
and Mike, it was Neil's letter I asked for comments on
ages ago) Glad you also met Alan..I'm sure they're all
very happy to know you too. If you're still there in
July, we'll all have a party together (of sorts). I
look f/w to meeting you and Victoria (Tori).

So hope you get over your sickness. Perhaps we can
help you with a 'bestseller' to pay off your expenses.
Amara and I are already helping another member do the
same. Here are some suggestions for yours:

THE DYNAMIC AND PASSIONATE MEDITATOR

Ch1- Life as Statue or Mummy is not for me!

Ch2- Thawing out the Frozen AngloSaxon List Members

ch3- Chauvanist males with Warm Hearts

Ch4- Abhidhamma takes a New Turn in my life

Ch5- Meetings with the wierd and wonderful List
Friends

Ch6- Applying the Teachings to Close Encounters

Ch7- My Brains on a Golden Platter

Ch8- Sorting the Mess and Paying the Bills with a big
smile ;-)))

That's it for now. When you've finished Ch8, I'll add
more! I need to look at some of the more serious posts
now!

I'll check with Joe to see if he's in Bkk when we are
and see if he needs a warm-hearted investigator for
research in some exotic location!

Take Care, Cybele,
Sarah

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> Dear Sarah and all
> 
> Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral
> infection and therefore I am 
> still here. I should start working in a pub to pay
> off my expenses, I can 
> hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at
> all but sure I can't 
> complain about boredom.
> I met some members of the list as well and that VERY
> warm hearted American 
> couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very
> much; they send regards.
> I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my
> friends here are Irish or 
> foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with
> Victoria, so nice and 
> sweet.
> I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I
> am stuck here in London 
> and probably will miss him.



 
4681 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Dear Herman,

Your active participation and posts are most welcome,
even though I don't always agree with all your
comments.

--- Herman wrote: 
> 
> The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by
> adherence to human 
> social conventions.

nor by non-adherence.....
> 
> It is more difficult for a person attached to
> property of any kind to 
> develop insight than just about anything else.

Does having property of any kind necessitate having
more attachment to it? Can we measure the attachment
by the objects? What about wrong view and ignorance?

May I quote from the Sigalovada Sutta (DNiii 187) from
the section on Friends:

'On four grounds the friend who is a helper is to be
reckoned as sound at heart:- he guards you when you
are off your guard, he guards your property when you
are off your guard; he is a refuge to you when you are
afraid; when you have tasks to perform he provides a
double supply (of what you may need).....'

Of course it is the second ground I had in mind.
Although I agree in your other post that we only have
'temporary use, temporary benefit of all that is given
us', this doesn't mean we shouldn't respect others'
property or unwisely give ours away.

Best Rgds,

Sarah

p.s missing that cold surf already...;-) 



 
4682 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:44pm
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan)

 
  Kusala and akusala cittani can be prompted or unprompted. The 
"prompted" are directed efforts. 

> Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your opinion, there can be 
> directed effort towards a goal?

 
4683 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Herman,

Excellent questions....let me share what I understand
as Jon may delay as he is collecting quite a few posts
to reply to!

--- Herman wrote:
>  
> > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not
> the
> > same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> > appears at the present moment.  This is a
> difficult
> > proposition to accept, but one well worth
> considering
> > sometime.
> 
> Jon,
> 
> What is targeting if there is no self? What is
> studying if there is 
> no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very
> difficult 
> proposition to express. The targeting mind, the
> studying mind. What 
> about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses
> not to act, or 
> inhibits an action already starting.  Thought
> without corresponding 
> verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of
> future 
> potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it?
> To feel anger, and 
> yet act compassionately? What is the name for that?
> What is the name 
> for choice, decision?

-targeting in this context sounds to me like thinking
with view of self that can direct an object for sati

-studying/being aware is sati of satipatthana (even if
at a very beginning level for just an instant)

-the mind that sees its impulsions is panna (rt
undestanding) that accompanies citta (consciousness)
and recognizes the akusala (unwholesome) mental state
for an instant (with or without undestanding of not
self depending)

- chooses not to act is cetana (intention) which
arises at every moment. There can be intention not to
act one moment and yet acting the next...so anatta
(not self).Or yes unwholesome intention and starting
to act followed by wholesome intention and stopping
the act.

-thought (what thinking thinks about) is a concept,
pannati. Thinking is real and can be wholesome or
unwholesome, thinking about any concepts there are
conditions to think about. Different moments of
thinking with dosa, thinking with compassion and so
on.

-choice, decision- again I stress is cetana
(intention). This is a universal mental factor which
means it arises with every citta. It's conditioned at
this moment to be just the way it is. It cannot be
changed or altered by wishing it another way.

None of this means that it isn't helpful to take a
cold swim or whatever else we find useful when
overwhelmed with dosa. If there are conditions to take
the cold swim, we'll do it anyway. What the Buddha has
taught us is to understand these different realities
more and more precisely, deeper and deeper while
screaming or while taking the plunge in order to
detach from the idea of self that can control them. 

Look forward to your different views,

Sarah



 
4684 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> ---JON: goal is
> > reached.  But a preoccupation with the quality of the
> > citta arising at the present moment tends to lead us
> > away from the development of awareness of the reality
> > that is appearing at the present moment - whether it
> > be nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or
> > external, gross or subtle - and of understanding that
> > reality as it really is."
> 
> ERIK:That is perhaps your experience, but my experience is
exactly 
> opposite. To wit, by keeping mindful of what's arising in my
> mind now 
> I have been able to short-circuit habitual akusala reactions
> that 
> would have arisen absent this type sati. And again this kusala
> serves 
> as an indispensible condition for the arising of lokuttara
> vipassana 
> nana. Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations of
> Mindfulness 
> (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta):
> 
> "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of
> itself? There 
> is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns
> that 
> the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he
> discerns 
> that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion,
> he 
> discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without 
> aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When
> the 
> mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion.
> When the 
> mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without
> 
> delusion."
> 
> That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that observing mental
> states 
> is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha. But to hell with
> the 
> writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. What I
> know is 
> that this tactic works extremely well from my own experience,
> that 
> this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful states of
> mind 
> and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such is in 100%
> accord 
> with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in the final 
> analysis, is all that matters.

Dear Erik,
These are points that touch on the subtlety of the eightfold
path (satipatthana). Developing almost all kusala, even to the
level of the eighth jhana, is possible during a Buddha sasana or
not. While all kusala brings benefits and is to some degree
supportive of vipassana if we mistake it for satipatthana then
that conditions some type of wrong practice. That is why on this
list there is a lot of discussion about the difference between
samatha and vipassana.
I think some of the objections Dan often has are on these
points. Someone writes explaining that samatha is not
satipatthana and it sounds like we are saying samatha is wrong:
Not so. 
Understanding mental states is part of the foundations of
mindfulness. And as I read Jon he wasn't saying that mental
states shouldn't be known; rather that ALL dhamma (as in
whatever appears)should be known equally. I perhaps stand
somewhere between Jon and Dan on this point as I think that if
akusala is very apparent and damaging - such as strong dosa-
then it may need special attention. As an earlier post I wrote
indicated this can still be satipatthana provided dosa is seen
as a dhamma. Dan mentioned that there are not always conditions
for satipatthana and sometimes other means are needed. I agree
and don't feel that we should be making rules about which type
of kusala is most suitable on any occasion...It depends on
accumulations and other conditions.
What is most important to learn is what the true characteristic
of sati is and how it is different depending on the type of
kusala. For myself I find that I seem to fit , at least for the
last few years, more within the path that Jon suggests. However,
this may not be right for everyone. Especially if someone has
been developing samatha for years hearing what we say about
satipatthana can be disturbing. 
I think one can still carry on with samatha bhavana but
hopefully be better informed and not mistake it for
satipatthana.  I find maranasati- meditation on death- a type of
samatha that seems to suit me , while sarah wrote that she feels
that it is better to just know dhammas as they are. Anyway even
the purest sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker) can't avoid
samatha at times simply because any wise consideration of the
Dhamma can be classified as a Dhammanusati (recollection of
Dhamma)- one of the 40 objects for samatha - and even sukkha
vipassakas must consider Dhamma sometimes.

I do strongly suggest that one must learn about the nature of
the sense doors such as the eye door. Seeing is something that
arises so often and because of lack of awareness of seeing it is
taken for "my" seeing or "I" am seeing. Or one thinks that there
are beings and cars and computers that are lasting entities.
This misunderstanding is where much of the dosa (aversion) and
lobha(attachment) is conditioned by. If we see clearly how sense
objects condition lobha (craving) and dosa(aversion)we may see
that by learning about visible object and seeing, sound and
hearing, etc. some of the conditions for dosa are not there
anymore anyway. 

On another tack now: I think some people believe that dosa can
be eradicated by samatha. This is not so, it is temporarily
supressed, and this can be even for thousands of aeons if one is
born as a brahma god by the correct development of samatha
bhavana. Nor is it so that the beginning stages of satipatthana
eradicates dosa. In the beginning satipatthana understandns dosa
and other realities as they are- sees their characteristics,
function, manisfestaion, and the conditions that support them,
and this leads to ever increasing penetration of the general
characteristics of dukkha, annica and anatta of dosa and other
dhammas. Thus satipatthana leads to the eradictaion of wrong
view  that mistakes concepts for realities. It is only in the
later stages of the path that dosa and lobha(craving) are
gradually eradicated. 
With regard to this it is is useful to consider the
Paticcasamupada (dependent origination). One of the factors of
this wheel is that of clinging, upadana. There are four types of
clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire
clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and
lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types
of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from
the gross to the very most subtle). These three are
the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially
need to understand. See Visuddhimagga xvii246. The path of
vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi
until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages,
after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires.

First there should be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have
accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand
them I think. Most of us have difficulty accepting this point as
“sense desire clinging is  obvious …. not so the other kinds
(the three
types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246.
 At the
moments there is understanding of any reality - for example,
lust, at those moments there is no clinging. But if we try to
supress lust we may succeed  but still not be removing wrong
view- we may even reinforce it (in the sense of believing
dhammas can be controlled). It may seem to go against common
sense but it is  seeing the lack of control over any dhamma that
satipatthana should be leading to. (I repeat that we don't need
to make rules here. It is a very slow process and takes
circumspection. If one feels that samatha or some other means
helps one in life by all means carry on with it. But hearing
about the difference between samatha and satipatthana helps to
condition some investigation of what is actually happening).
 
Just to finish. A quote from the suttas:


the 'Kindred Sayings' (lV, Salayatanavagga, Kindred 
Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.V, par. 202, Lustful)
Maha-Moggalla-na said to the monks:  

                 Friends, I will teach you the way of lusting
and also  
                 of not lusting....  

                 And how, friends, is one lustful?  

                 Herein, friends, a monk, seeing object with the
eye,  
                 feels attachment for objects that charm, feels
aversion  
                 from objects that displease, abides without
mindfulness  
                 of the body, and his thoughts are mean. He
realizes  
                 not, in its true nature, that emancipation of
heart,  
                 that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those
evil,  
                 unprofitable states that have arisen cease
without  
                 remainder.  

                 This monk, friends, is called 'lustful after
objects  
                 cognizable by the eye, nose, tongue…objects
cognizable  
                 by the mind’ When a monk so abides, friends, if
Mara  
                 come upon him by way of the eye, Mara gets an  
                 opportunity. If Mara come upon him....by way of
the  
                 mind, Mara gets access, gets opportunity....  

                 So dwelling, friends, objects overcome a monk,
a  
                 monk overcomes not objects. Sounds overcome a
monk,  
                 a monk overcomes not sounds. Scents, savours,  
                 tangibles and mind-states overcome a monk, a
monk  
                 overcomes not sounds, scents, savours,
tangibles and  
                 mind-states. This monk, friends, is called
'conquered  
                 by objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles
and  
                 mind-states, not conquerer of them.’ Evil,
unprofitable  
                 states, passion-fraught, leading to rebirth
overcome him,  
                 states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, whose
future is  
                 rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, one is
lustful.  

                 And how, friends, is one free from lust?  

                 Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with
the  
                 eye, is not attached to objects that charm, nor
averse  
                 from objects that displease....  

                 Tasting a savour with the tongue...with mind
cognizing  
                 a mind-state, he is not attached to mind-states
that  
                 charm, nor is he averse from mind-states that
displease,  
                 but dwells with mindfulness of the body, his
thought  
                 is boundless. So that he realizes in its true
nature that  
                 emancipation of heart, that emancipation of
wisdom,  
                 wherein those evil, unprofitable states that
have arisen  
                 come to cease without remainder.  

                 This monk, friends, is called 'not lustful
after  
                 objects cognizable by the eye... not lustful
after  
                 mind-states cognizable by mind.' Thus dwelling,
friends,  
                 if Mara come upon him by way of the eye, of the
 
                 tongue,... of the mind, Mara gets no access,
gets no  
                 opportunity....  

                 Moreover, friends, so dwelling a monk conquers 

                 objects, objects do not conquer him. He
conquers  
                 sounds, scents, savours, tangibles,
mind-states. They  
                 do not conquer him. Such a monk, friends, is
called,  
                 'conquerer of objects, sounds, scents, savours,
tangibles  
                 and mind-states,’ He is conquerer, not
conquered. He  
                 conquers those evil, unprofitable states,
passion-fraught,  
                 inciting to lust, leading to rebirth, states
unhappy, whose  
                 fruit is pain, rebirth, decay and death. Thus,
friends,  
                 is one free from lust.  







 
4685 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  Herman

Some earlier posts of yours were next on my list to
reply to, but this latest post seems to call for a
prompt response, so here goes.

> > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is
> better
> > implies that there is something we can do about
> the
> > akusala that has already arisen.  I would prefer
> to
> > say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala,
> 
> This I understand.
> 
>  and we
> > should get to know more about each by being aware
> of
> > the characteristic of it as it arises. 
> 
> And this I do not understand. What is this
> "shoulding"? How 
> does "shoulding" arise? I think mixing Abhidhamma
> modes of expression 
> and conventional modes of expression is fatal to
> understanding.

I'm sorry about any confusion or lack of clarity.  Let
me try again. Kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala,
and the characteristic of each can be known--this is
the path taught by the Buddha.

By chance, what I was trying to say is explained in
the passage from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta quoted in
Erik's post.  If I may paraphrase that passage,
whether the citta is kusala or akusala, there can be
awareness of the citta as it is, as kusala or akusala.
 There is no support there for a need to 'deal with'
the akusala cittas arising.

>  There is no
> > need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it
> is
> > just another reality to be known.
> 
> If fazing arises , isn't it just so, nothing more
> nothing less?

Yes, that is so, but if we hold the view that certain
akusala arising is a hindrance to the development of
the path and needs to be dealt with, then we'll be
fazed a lot more that if we understand, even if only
at an intellectual level, that the akusala is just
another reality, nothing special.

> Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your
> opinion, there can be 
> directed effort towards a goal?

Well Herman, here it is, for what it's worth.

In a conventional sense, of course there can be
directed effort towards a goal.  I expect there's no
argument about this.  In an absolute sense, though, I
would say there cannot be.  My understanding of the
teaching on this is as follows.  

'Goal' is a concept and so, in this sense, is 'effort'
(the cetasika that is effort does not equate to effort
as conventionally referred to).  'Directed effort
towards a goal' is a conventional mode of expression
which is used to describe a whole series of processes
of cittas (moments of consciousness) and their
accompanying cetasikas (mental factors).  Each of
these cittas arises for a moment with its accompanying
cetasikas to perform its function and then falls away.
 Because of our ignorance, the reality of these
processes and their multitudinous conditioning factors
is invisible to us, and so we form the concept of
directed effort towards a goal.

The same applies to choice or decisions (a question
raised in an earlier post of yours).  There is no
absolute reality that is choice or decision, these are
concepts used to describe a certain series of cittas
which think about which one to choose, which way to
go, whether to do A or B etc.  The reality of these
moments is just different kinds of thinking.  There is
nothing absolute about a decision or choice until the
relevant act (through body, speech or mind) is done,
so of itself it means nothing.  Even in conventional
terms, we know that no decision is 'final' in the
sense that it cannot be changed, and it often happens
that it does change, sometimes against our conscious
wish.

Herman, I would be equally interested to hear your
thoughts on this question.

> Kind Regards
> 
> Herman

Thanks for your perceptive observations and questions.

Jon



 
4686 From: Num 
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Hi Sarah and Cybele,

Just a short mail.  Can you guys put me on the list of persons to notify when 
the book come out?   Should be a fun reading :).  Sound like it should be a 
good book for bookclub. 

Good to hear and see you back in action, Cybele.

Num





 
4687 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya"

 
  >        I'd like to make a brief comment on the beginning of the 
"Summary of 
> the 24 Paccaya" in relation to reservations I had expressed about 
'sabhava' 
> and about translating 'paramattha dhamma' as "reality" instead of 
something 
> like "actuality" because of my fear of substantialism/essentialism. 
In this 
> regard, I find the following most heartening!


>        Note, in particular, the talk of mistaking "realities for 
entities"!! 
> This certainly takes the sting out of the term 'realities' for me! 

Dear Howard,

I'm glad you feel less aversion for the term 'reality'.  Perhaps you 
will also find that with the further precision of the terms 'ultimate 
reality' or 'absolute reality' as translations for the Pali 
'paramattha dhamma' we are even closer to the original definition.  Or 
as close as we translators could manage in another language!  Of 
course nothing could really match the breadth and depth of the Pali, 
which is why, after giving the best explanation we know how of a 
certain word, we usually use the Pali to cover all the original 
essence of the terminology.  Here we must apologize to those with Pali 
phobia, with whom I sympathize fully, since I am one of them (even now 
after I have become more familiar with the language, having translated 
some books with numerous Pali terms!).  

I especially appreciate your comments, Howard, knowing how careful you 
are about language and forms of communication, and would appreciate 
further comments/criticism you might have on any of our work on 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >.  At the very least your criticisms 
indicate that you have found some articles worth reading.  I have 
always thought that if even a single person benefited from our site it 
would have been worth all our efforts, so thank you for everything,

Amara

 
4688 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 0:01am
Subject: Re: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos

 
  > Like others on the list, I sometimes react with dosa
> to messages which seem to be 'attacking' with wrong
> speech. However we justify this dosa at the time, it
> is the dosa rather than the arammana (object) that is
> the problem at that moment. This doesn't mean that we
> shouldn't take action or say something to prevent the
> other's further wrong speech, but I think if we can
> give helpful reminders with wise speech (as you've
Ø done), this is always best.


Sarah, 

Many thanks for the kind comments.  Being (as you know!) rather 
compulsive myself I really sympathize with Malcolm and his commitment 
to the sasana and fellow Buddhists; with the need to warn us against 
what he considers dangers that might be less obvious to others.  
Sometimes we forget that the dhamma teaches us that each person has 
his own kamma (kammasakata) and the cetana that is chief paccaya would 
result in whatever one wishes against others for oneself instead.  Not 
that we should not try to help others, of course, but the karuna 
should be with kusala citta, it could never really arise with dosa, 
even though one might take dosa for karuna sometimes.  This is why the 
study of the dhamma even at the intellectual level is beneficial as it 
would help us distinguish kusala from akusala in daily life.  The 
Buddha teaches us to react as wisely as possible in any given 
situation, even in such matters as defending the sasana or fellow 
Buddhists, and I am sure we will all try to do the best we can as 
well, although I still believe that studying and sharing the teachings 
is the best way to preserve and protect the texts!

Amara

 
 
4689 From: McCall 
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 10:04am
Subject: 

 
  Dear Fellow Buddhists, and everyone else.

I would like to start off by thanking everyone for the unimaginable 
response to my posts to the various groups. Be it for or against my 
post really doesn't matter at all, but I thank you for participating 
anyway. What I was quite surprised is the number of you that e-mailed 
me privately complimenting and supporting me. For some, society has 
not reached the stage where they can speak out without being 
ridiculed. We still live in a world where one has to be careful of 
ones speech and actions even if it is to defend the Master Lord 
Buddha himself. 

Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of the 
Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you are 
going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not 
painting a pretty picture of yourselves. 

Loyalty to the Master first, than you take is teachings, and not the 
other way around. We seem to have forgotten this basic fundamental 
requirement of the Lord Buddha and his Arhants.

If you took the essence of my letters and understood it, rather then 
nitpicking on each individual word than this message would have been 
blatantly clear to all, and not only to a small minority.

Many Buddhists nowadays think of the Lord Buddha as a wimpy character 
who showers anyone and everyone with heaps of loving kindness and is 
always in a blissful semiconscious stupor. Where do they get this 
rubbish from, I wonder. To be able to derive at the truth of life 
took a strong and dedicated mind with earth shattering conviction and 
power. This is not the mind that is projected nowadays of the Lord 
Buddha in Buddhism. 

Familiar with these words ?

The Buddha's usual reprimand was itself a powerful corrective: 

"It is not fit, foolish man, it is not becoming, it is not proper, it 
is unworthy of a recluse, it is not lawful, it ought not to be done. 
How could you, foolish man, having gone forth under this Dhamma and 
Discipline which are well-taught, [commit such and such 
offense]?...It is not, foolish man, for the benefit of un-believers, 
nor for the increase in the number of believers, but, foolish man, it 
is to the detriment of both unbelievers and believers, and it causes 
wavering in some. "

The Book of the Discipline, Part I, by I.B. Horner (London: Pali Text 
Society, 1982), pp. 36-7. 

Anyway, I have planted the seed in your mind that will definitely 
grow one day when your personal conditions are ripe for its 
germination. This process will occur to some in this lifetime while 
others it will occur in other life times, but one thing is for 
certain is that it will occur.

What is this foolish man talking about? Is what most of you will be 
saying. And to those my reply is that you will not be able to 
comprehend the rational however I may try to explain it to you. 
Simply put your time has not come yet. This is not meant as an insult 
but a statement of fact.

As laypersons we have a different responsibility than that of the 
ordained.  Our Duty is to provide sustenance, basic material needs, 
and to defend the Sangha by any means possible. For without this 
protection that we offer, the Sangha cannot survive in its original 
form and entity and must allow itself to be assimilated to appease 
the aggressors to survive. This has been occurring ever since the 
Master Lord Buddha's Parinibbana. Visit http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ 
all the historical data is there to be examined.

I thank everyone for your time and patience.

In respect always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon G McCall
Singapore

 
4690 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 11:39am
Subject: 

 
  > Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of the 
> Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you are 
> going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not 
> painting a pretty picture of yourselves. 


Dear Malcolm,

Again I must disagree with you on this, the Buddha took great care in 
several instances to put his teachings before his person, such as in 
this passage:

"For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma 
teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his 
clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know the 
dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him. (Khuddakanikaya 
Itivuttaka Sangatisutta, 272) 

In the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) he also 
said, "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge, 
dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, 
with no other refuge".

Of course now that the Buddha has attained parinibbana it is much more 
obvious his person no longer needs anyone's protection, nor did he 
need it at any time during his sojourn on earth since his own kamma 
and resulting vipaka were such that none could harm him, even when his 
cousin tried to murder him.  This is why he teaches us to have 
confidence in our own kamma, none could harm us but our previous 
deeds, even if they tried.  But we could never escape out own kamma 
even if we tried, as the Buddha also explained about minor incidents 
of discomforts his vipaka brought from remnants of minor akusala done 
long eons ago.

The dhamma is predicted to disappear no matter what happens in between 
times, but not from others persecuting it, but from people neglecting 
to study it.  The first to disappear would be the Abhidhamma, and we 
can see from the way people negate it already these days: because it 
is not the Buddha's teachings, because it is not necessary, because it 
is too difficult, etc.  None of the dhamma is easy, except to those 
with the right accumulations who can understand and realize the truth 
as they heard the Buddha's words the first time.  For us who read the 
same words, sometimes over and over, and seem to intellectually 
comprehend it, where is the experiencing of nibbana and permanent 
eradication of lobha, dosa or moha?  Our panna is not strong enough 
for that, and how can panna be developed to such strength?  It would 
seem to me that one must study the teachings and prove them for 
oneself; are all dhamma (realities) anatta (non-self)?  The eyes, 
sight, the ears, sound, etc., that we take for us that see and hear?  
How are realities different?  How are they not the self?  Why do we 
cling to events in the Tipitaka?  They are merely written words that 
appear as color and shapes to the eyes, and our memory cognizes the 
words and thoughts arise about its meanings.  We grow angry or 
attached, agitated or peaceful according to conditions and 
accumulations from the past, over what started as instants of sight 
and sound, long trains of thought, and kusala and akusala citta, all 
interposed with billions of bhavanga (life continuum).  

But with his teachings that he designated as teacher in his stead once 
he is no longer physically with us, satipatthana could arise and be 
our refuge against all the akusala.  We could realize things are as 
they really are, just sights and thoughts and concepts that move us 
through our accumulated clinging to react so strongly about something 
the Buddha would never have cared about.  Not only that but we ignore 
his respect for the dhamma and his wishes that we respect it as well, 
but developing akusala instead, something to which he would never 
condone but rather condemn.  This is obviously not the purpose of his 
sasana (teachings), nor the way one should express our loyalty to the 
Tiratana, to my mind.  All kilesa can only be eradicated by panna, 
never with any other method.

I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings,

Amara

 
4691 From: McCall 
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 0:45pm
Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear Amara,fellow Buddhists and others

To Understand the Dhamma requires comprehension of the contex of Lord 
Buddhas intent and intention. Please use this ability for other 
aspects of daily life and not only when devoted to Dhamma reading. 
Please try to Live Buddhism and not only practice it. All the Dhamma 
ever written is in all of us. We only have to find ourselves and we 
found the Dhamma. You cannot learn the Dhamma. 

If we are still intent on finding it by reading than we can only 
determine the true Dhamma from the vast array of printed material 
compiled through the ages and passed off as authentic, if we maintain 
the correct frame of mind, of the Master himself. I know this is 
easier said than done, but bare with me.

First we have to place our mind in ancient India 2500 yrs ago. Than 
we have to understand the horrible lives of the ones at the bottom of 
the Cast system. From this caste came the laypersons that supported 
the Lord Buddha in the masses. Now add the rags and begging bowl and 
imagine the sky as your roof. Now you have the frame of mind of the 
Lord Buddha. The whole countryside was ripe with politics and the 
Lord Buddha had to be skillful in balancing these powerful forces.  
Now it's  time to add the Dhamma to this. 

We can instantly see the Lord Buddha taking shape. A Master with 
compassion for the poor and needy, a character hardened by years of 
ascetic practices with endless determination, a skillful handler of 
Royalty who's patronage was essential for the Sangha's survival. 
Research has shown that the  Lord Buddha was a very strict teacher, 
who used to chide his followers with very stern words, when they 
wavered from the true path.

Noce again, many Buddhists nowadays think of the Lord Buddha as a 
wimpy character who showers anyone and everyone with heaps of loving 
kindness and is always in a blissful semiconscious stupor. Where do 
they get this rubbish from, I wonder. To be able to derive  at the 
truth of life took a strong and dedicated mind with earth shattering 
conviction and power. This is not the mind that is projected nowadays 
of the Lord Buddha in Buddhism. 

Investigation has shown that a lot of Hindu indoctrination has 
occurred in Buddhism (my website shows clearly this factor). What the 
world is practicing is a form of Hinduistic ritualized Buddhism with 
a Mahatma Gandhi flavor.

With respect always,
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall (not Malcolm)

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of 
the 
> > Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you 
are 
> > going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not 
> > painting a pretty picture of yourselves. 
> 
> 
> Dear Malcolm,
> 
> Again I must disagree with you on this, the Buddha took great care 
in 
> several instances to put his teachings before his person, such as 
in 
> this passage:
> 
> "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma 
> teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his 
> clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know 
the 
> dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him. 
(Khuddakanikaya 
> Itivuttaka Sangatisutta, 272) 
> 
> In the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) he 
also 
> said, "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other 
refuge, 
> dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your 
refuge, 
> with no other refuge".
> 
> Of course now that the Buddha has attained parinibbana it is much 
more 
> obvious his person no longer needs anyone's protection, nor did he 
> need it at any time during his sojourn on earth since his own kamma 
> and resulting vipaka were such that none could harm him, even when 
his 
> cousin tried to murder him.  This is why he teaches us to have 
> confidence in our own kamma, none could harm us but our previous 
> deeds, even if they tried.  But we could never escape out own kamma 
> even if we tried, as the Buddha also explained about minor 
incidents 
> of discomforts his vipaka brought from remnants of minor akusala 
done 
> long eons ago.
> 
> The dhamma is predicted to disappear no matter what happens in 
between 
> times, but not from others persecuting it, but from people 
neglecting 
> to study it.  The first to disappear would be the Abhidhamma, and 
we 
> can see from the way people negate it already these days: because 
it 
> is not the Buddha's teachings, because it is not necessary, because 
it 
> is too difficult, etc.  None of the dhamma is easy, except to those 
> with the right accumulations who can understand and realize the 
truth 
> as they heard the Buddha's words the first time.  For us who read 
the 
> same words, sometimes over and over, and seem to intellectually 
> comprehend it, where is the experiencing of nibbana and permanent 
> eradication of lobha, dosa or moha?  Our panna is not strong enough 
> for that, and how can panna be developed to such strength?  It 
would 
> seem to me that one must study the teachings and prove them for 
> oneself; are all dhamma (realities) anatta (non-self)?  The eyes, 
> sight, the ears, sound, etc., that we take for us that see and 
hear?  
> How are realities different?  How are they not the self?  Why do we 
> cling to events in the Tipitaka?  They are merely written words 
that 
> appear as color and shapes to the eyes, and our memory cognizes the 
> words and thoughts arise about its meanings.  We grow angry or 
> attached, agitated or peaceful according to conditions and 
> accumulations from the past, over what started as instants of sight 
> and sound, long trains of thought, and kusala and akusala citta, 
all 
> interposed with billions of bhavanga (life continuum).  
> 
> But with his teachings that he designated as teacher in his stead 
once 
> he is no longer physically with us, satipatthana could arise and be 
> our refuge against all the akusala.  We could realize things are as 
> they really are, just sights and thoughts and concepts that move us 
> through our accumulated clinging to react so strongly about 
something 
> the Buddha would never have cared about.  Not only that but we 
ignore 
> his respect for the dhamma and his wishes that we respect it as 
well, 
> but developing akusala instead, something to which he would never 
> condone but rather condemn.  This is obviously not the purpose of 
his 
> sasana (teachings), nor the way one should express our loyalty to 
the 
> Tiratana, to my mind.  All kilesa can only be eradicated by panna, 
> never with any other method.
> 
> I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings,
> 
> Amara

 
4692 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 1:27pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  > To Understand the Dhamma requires comprehension of the contex of 
Lord 
> Buddhas intent and intention. Please use this ability for other 
> aspects of daily life and not only when devoted to Dhamma reading. 
> Please try to Live Buddhism and not only practice it. All the Dhamma 
> ever written is in all of us. We only have to find ourselves and we 
> found the Dhamma. You cannot learn the Dhamma. 

Dear Malcolm,

The Buddha would not spend 45 years of his life, indeed over twenty 
hours of each day of those years teaching the dhamma if he did not 
know that others could in deed 'learn the Dhamma'.   

> If we are still intent on finding it by reading than we can only 
> determine the true Dhamma from the vast array of printed material 
> compiled through the ages and passed off as authentic, if we 
maintain 
> the correct frame of mind, of the Master himself. I know this is 
> easier said than done, but bare with me.
> 
> First we have to place our mind in ancient India 2500 yrs ago. Than 
> we have to understand the horrible lives of the ones at the bottom 
of 
> the Cast system. From this caste came the laypersons that supported 
> the Lord Buddha in the masses. Now add the rags and begging bowl and 
> imagine the sky as your roof. Now you have the frame of mind of the 
> Lord Buddha. The whole countryside was ripe with politics and the 
> Lord Buddha had to be skillful in balancing these powerful forces.  
> Now it's  time to add the Dhamma to this. 

I know that given his stance against any kind of superstition one is 
tempted to regard him as revolutionary but unlike the Prophet in other 
religions he was not political in the conventional sense.  In the 
ultimate sense he is above politics since he taught kings and beggars 
alike, women and children, devas and demons as well, so that not only 
mana (any degree of self importance/underestimation as well as any 
comparison between oneself and any other object or person) in social 
position is irrelevant, but mana in planes of birth, as brahma or hell 
dwellers, has no bearing.  That includes people in other religions, 
many of whom he converted, and others he could not teach.  There is no 
crusades possible since violence in any form, even verbal ones, are 
against the precepts.  The only way he converted anyone way with 
reasons, with the truth of his teachings.  The only thing he 'killed' 
or eliminate was ignorance and through that, kilesa.


> We can instantly see the Lord Buddha taking shape. A Master with 
> compassion for the poor and needy, a character hardened by years of 
> ascetic practices with endless determination, a skillful handler of 
> Royalty who's patronage was essential for the Sangha's survival. 
> Research has shown that the  Lord Buddha was a very strict teacher, 
> who used to chide his followers with very stern words, when they 
> wavered from the true path.
> 
> Noce again, many Buddhists nowadays think of the Lord Buddha as a 
> wimpy character who showers anyone and everyone with heaps of loving 
> kindness and is always in a blissful semiconscious stupor. Where do 
> they get this rubbish from, I wonder. To be able to derive  at the 
> truth of life took a strong and dedicated mind with earth shattering 
> conviction and power. This is not the mind that is projected 
nowadays 
> of the Lord Buddha in Buddhism. 


If you read the Tipitaka/Commentaries about his accumulations you 
would have found that he not only inspired respect, confidence, and 
devotion, but that he had physical powers that also inspired awe: on 
his sixteenth birthday his father asked him to demonstrate his 
physical prowess that was far beyond human limits, and when he first 
left home and traveled in his search for knowledge a king offered him 
his country to rule, on seeing his characteristics.  It is not 
possible to regard him, even after he founded the sasana and taught 
non violence, as any sort of wimp, far from it.  He was capable of 
subduing monsters and great serpens and mad elephants, not to 
mention demons and forces of nature, you name it, it is us who must 
take refuge in the protection of his dhamma and not for us to protect 
such a powerful person.  And yet he has never used it to start holy 
wars or revolutions or create social unrest, but to help people help 
themselves from much more oppressive bondage: that to which we are all 
slaves of and for which we do everything we do to please, the selves.

We think we do this or that for the sasana, but whose sasana is it?  
OURS, mine, the teachings 'I' most believe in, our leader, our Buddha, 
that 'they' are plotting against.  No matter where we go we could 
never escape the self, except when we study and apply his teachings in 
our lives.  That we see colors, hear sounds, etc., where there is no 
self, just realities that arise and fall away according to conditions, 
under no one's control, not even the Buddha's.  But which we can end 
by studying things as they really are and increase panna until it is 
powerful enough to automatically eradicate all kilesa and release us 
from this enslavement to the self.  This is how the Buddha intended to 
free us and why he spent so much time teaching this precious knowledge 
which is pure beneficence and free from any taint of harm for anyone 
whomever, especially to the persons who study and practice it.

May we be able to benefit from all the great efforts of the Buddha in 
establishing the sasana,

Amara


> Investigation has shown that a lot of Hindu indoctrination has 
> occurred in Buddhism (my website shows clearly this factor). What 
the 
> world is practicing is a form of Hinduistic ritualized Buddhism with 
> a Mahatma Gandhi flavor.
> 
> With respect always,
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall (not Malcolm)
> 
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of 
> the 
> > > Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you 
> are 
> > > going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not 
> > > painting a pretty picture of yourselves. 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Malcolm,
> > 
> > Again I must disagree with you on this, the Buddha took great care 
> in 
> > several instances to put his teachings before his person, such as 
> in 
> > this passage:
> > 
> > "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the 
dhamma 
> > teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his 
> > clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know 
> the 
> > dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him. 
> (Khuddakanikaya 
> > Itivuttaka Sangatisutta, 272) 
> > 
> > In the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) he 
> also 
> > said, "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other 
> refuge, 
> > dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your 
> refuge, 
> > with no other refuge".
> > 
> > Of course now that the Buddha has attained parinibbana it is much 
> more 
> > obvious his person no longer needs anyone's protection, nor did he 
> > need it at any time during his sojourn on earth since his own 
kamma 
> > and resulting vipaka were such that none could harm him, even when 
> his 
> > cousin tried to murder him.  This is why he teaches us to have 
> > confidence in our own kamma, none could harm us but our previous 
> > deeds, even if they tried.  But we could never escape out own 
kamma 
> > even if we tried, as the Buddha also explained about minor 
> incidents 
> > of discomforts his vipaka brought from remnants of minor akusala 
> done 
> > long eons ago.
> > 
> > The dhamma is predicted to disappear no matter what happens in 
> between 
> > times, but not from others persecuting it, but from people 
> neglecting 
> > to study it.  The first to disappear would be the Abhidhamma, and 
> we 
> > can see from the way people negate it already these days: because 
> it 
> > is not the Buddha's teachings, because it is not necessary, 
because 
> it 
> > is too difficult, etc.  None of the dhamma is easy, except to 
those 
> > with the right accumulations who can understand and realize the 
> truth 
> > as they heard the Buddha's words the first time.  For us who read 
> the 
> > same words, sometimes over and over, and seem to intellectually 
> > comprehend it, where is the experiencing of nibbana and permanent 
> > eradication of lobha, dosa or moha?  Our panna is not strong 
enough 
> > for that, and how can panna be developed to such strength?  It 
> would 
> > seem to me that one must study the teachings and prove them for 
> > oneself; are all dhamma (realities) anatta (non-self)?  The eyes, 
> > sight, the ears, sound, etc., that we take for us that see and 
> hear?  
> > How are realities different?  How are they not the self?  Why do 
we 
> > cling to events in the Tipitaka?  They are merely written words 
> that 
> > appear as color and shapes to the eyes, and our memory cognizes 
the 
> > words and thoughts arise about its meanings.  We grow angry or 
> > attached, agitated or peaceful according to conditions and 
> > accumulations from the past, over what started as instants of 
sight 
> > and sound, long trains of thought, and kusala and akusala citta, 
> all 
> > interposed with billions of bhavanga (life continuum).  
> > 
> > But with his teachings that he designated as teacher in his stead 
> once 
> > he is no longer physically with us, satipatthana could arise and 
be 
> > our refuge against all the akusala.  We could realize things are 
as 
> > they really are, just sights and thoughts and concepts that move 
us 
> > through our accumulated clinging to react so strongly about 
> something 
> > the Buddha would never have cared about.  Not only that but we 
> ignore 
> > his respect for the dhamma and his wishes that we respect it as 
> well, 
> > but developing akusala instead, something to which he would never 
> > condone but rather condemn.  This is obviously not the purpose of 
> his 
> > sasana (teachings), nor the way one should express our loyalty to 
> the 
> > Tiratana, to my mind.  All kilesa can only be eradicated by panna, 
> > never with any other method.
> > 
> > I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings,
> > 
> > Amara

 
4693 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  Dear Robert & friends,

I'm appreciating the well-considered posts and subtle
points that are being raised. I'd like to add some
comments here on my undestanding of samatha. Rob, I
sincerely apologise in advance if I quote any of your
post out of context or misinterpret your meaning.

Robert Kirkpatrick 
wrote: 

> I perhaps
> stand
> somewhere between Jon and Dan on this point as I
> think that if
> akusala is very apparent and damaging - such as
> strong dosa-
> then it may need special attention. As an earlier
> post I wrote
> indicated this can still be satipatthana provided
> dosa is seen
> as a dhamma. 

I think that if there is any selection or interest to
be aware of one reality and not another or even to
have kusala and not akusala at the next moment, we can
be pretty sure that this is lobha with or without
wrong view. It's not a matter of developing detachment
from all realities but then giving a few exceptions!!

> I agree
> and don't feel that we should be making rules about
> which type
> of kusala is most suitable on any occasion...It
> depends on
> accumulations and other conditions.

We could say, could we not, that any kusala is very
suitable and that any moment of satipatthana is the
most suitable of all, but there is no choice in the
matter at all. Whenever a moment of kusala arises it
is not by any special means but as a result of
whatever combination of the 24 paccaya are applicable
at that given moment.

 For myself I find that I seem to fit , at
> least for the
> last few years, more within the path that Jon
> suggests. However,
> this may not be right for everyone. Especially if
> someone has
> been developing samatha for years hearing what we
> say about
> satipatthana can be disturbing.

Whether there is any understanding or appearing to
'fit', the realities taught by the Buddha are what our
lives are made up of. This is true for Christians,
jains, Buddhists or anyone else. I would say,
developing clear understanding of different kinds of
kusala and all other realities IS right for everyone,
even if they don't appreciate it.

So we need to consider carefully what is meant by
'developing samatha for years'.
 
> I think one can still carry on with samatha bhavana
> but
> hopefully be better informed and not mistake it for
> satipatthana.  I find maranasati- meditation on
> death- a type of
> samatha that seems to suit me , while sarah wrote
> that she feels
> that it is better to just know dhammas as they are.
> Anyway even
> the purest sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker)
> can't avoid
> samatha at times simply because any wise
> consideration of the
> Dhamma can be classified as a Dhammanusati
> (recollection of
> Dhamma)- one of the 40 objects for samatha - and
> even sukkha
> vipassakas must consider Dhamma sometimes.

Just to make it very clear, I think that ANY moment of
kusala of any kind in a day is very valuable and
precious. At that moment the citta is calm and free of
akusala. The more precise the understanding of
different kinds of kusala and akusala there is, the
more this can be appreciated and the more conditions
there will be for different kinds of kusala to arise.

When I read your sentence above 'one can still carry
on with samatha bhavana' it sounds like this is a kind
of practice that can be followed at will and not at
all how I understand the development of any kind of
kusala to be. My sincere apologies if I am
misunderstanding you here, Rob.

Developing smatha like developing vipassana is
determined by understanding and not by wish to
develop. For any moments of samatha to arise, there
has to be clear understanding of when the citta is
kusala and when it is akusala and how the object at
that moment calms the mind. As we know, it is not a
matter of concentration or determining to practise
samatha. If one aims or plans for this, there is bound
to be attachment.

As we know, it's very useful to study the 40 objects
because samatha bhavana can be practised now. Right
now, there are different moments of metta and
attachment. By studying and knowing the difference
precisely when these different cetasikas arise, there
can be conditions for calm to increase with metta as
object without the need to try. Of course, it will
depend on different accumulations, as you say, as to
which objects are more clearly understood and likely
to  be objects of samatha. Like you, I find that wise
reflection on death can be very useful and sobering.

I enjoyed the following example of dana as object from
samatha by K.Sujin, which I just copied from your
website under 'Deeds of Merit, part 1':

"When we have performed a deed of generosity there can
again be kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on
the daana or generous deed we have performed with
cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, when someone has
accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds
of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his
deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure
and steadfast in kusala. Some people can have
steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of
access-concentration [6. This is the development of
tranquil meditation, samatha, with recollection of
generosity (caagaanusati) as meditation subject."<end
quote>

According to my understanding, this is not by wishing
to have kusala or samatha or by determining which is
the right object at this moment in daily life. If
there are no deeds of generosity when we have the
opportunity to give and no understanding of precisely
which moments are kusala, then there will be no
conditions of samatha with dana as object.> 

Finally, you say

> If one feels that samatha or some
> other means
> helps one in life by all means carry on with it. But
> hearing
> about the difference between samatha and
> satipatthana helps to
> condition some investigation of what is actually
> happening).

I don't understand samatha to be something one can
'carry on with'. Like any other reality, a moment of
samatha is conditioned and anatta, even though there
is no understanding of paramatha dhamma as anatta at
that moment.

All aspects of the dhamma are deep and subtle.
Reflecting on it at this moment ccan condition moments
of samatha when the cittas are wholesome. Thank you so
much for these opportunities and apologies again if
you feel I am nit-picking unnecessarily !

Sarah>






 
4694 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  Dear Sarah,
All you say is of course right. I think I have mentioned in past
letters about anatta and conditionality from time to time and
that is why I didn't stress on these issues on this post. Also
the necessity of understanding samatha and its difficulty has
been bought up occasionally. My post assumed these basic points.

robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Robert & friends,
> 
> I'm appreciating the well-considered posts and subtle
> points that are being raised. I'd like to add some
> comments here on my undestanding of samatha. Rob, I
> sincerely apologise in advance if I quote any of your
> post out of context or misinterpret your meaning.
> 
> Robert Kirkpatrick 
> wrote: 
> 
> > I perhaps
> > stand
> > somewhere between Jon and Dan on this point as I
> > think that if
> > akusala is very apparent and damaging - such as
> > strong dosa-
> > then it may need special attention. As an earlier
> > post I wrote
> > indicated this can still be satipatthana provided
> > dosa is seen
> > as a dhamma. 
> 
> I think that if there is any selection or interest to
> be aware of one reality and not another or even to
> have kusala and not akusala at the next moment, we can
> be pretty sure that this is lobha with or without
> wrong view. It's not a matter of developing detachment
> from all realities but then giving a few exceptions!!
> 
> > I agree
> > and don't feel that we should be making rules about
> > which type
> > of kusala is most suitable on any occasion...It
> > depends on
> > accumulations and other conditions.
> 
> We could say, could we not, that any kusala is very
> suitable and that any moment of satipatthana is the
> most suitable of all, but there is no choice in the
> matter at all. Whenever a moment of kusala arises it
> is not by any special means but as a result of
> whatever combination of the 24 paccaya are applicable
> at that given moment.
> 
>  For myself I find that I seem to fit , at
> > least for the
> > last few years, more within the path that Jon
> > suggests. However,
> > this may not be right for everyone. Especially if
> > someone has
> > been developing samatha for years hearing what we
> > say about
> > satipatthana can be disturbing.
> 
> Whether there is any understanding or appearing to
> 'fit', the realities taught by the Buddha are what our
> lives are made up of. This is true for Christians,
> jains, Buddhists or anyone else. I would say,
> developing clear understanding of different kinds of
> kusala and all other realities IS right for everyone,
> even if they don't appreciate it.
> 
> So we need to consider carefully what is meant by
> 'developing samatha for years'.
>  
> > I think one can still carry on with samatha bhavana
> > but
> > hopefully be better informed and not mistake it for
> > satipatthana.  I find maranasati- meditation on
> > death- a type of
> > samatha that seems to suit me , while sarah wrote
> > that she feels
> > that it is better to just know dhammas as they are.
> > Anyway even
> > the purest sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker)
> > can't avoid
> > samatha at times simply because any wise
> > consideration of the
> > Dhamma can be classified as a Dhammanusati
> > (recollection of
> > Dhamma)- one of the 40 objects for samatha - and
> > even sukkha
> > vipassakas must consider Dhamma sometimes.
> 
> Just to make it very clear, I think that ANY moment of
> kusala of any kind in a day is very valuable and
> precious. At that moment the citta is calm and free of
> akusala. The more precise the understanding of
> different kinds of kusala and akusala there is, the
> more this can be appreciated and the more conditions
> there will be for different kinds of kusala to arise.
> 
> When I read your sentence above 'one can still carry
> on with samatha bhavana' it sounds like this is a kind
> of practice that can be followed at will and not at
> all how I understand the development of any kind of
> kusala to be. My sincere apologies if I am
> misunderstanding you here, Rob.
> 
> Developing smatha like developing vipassana is
> determined by understanding and not by wish to
> develop. For any moments of samatha to arise, there
> has to be clear understanding of when the citta is
> kusala and when it is akusala and how the object at
> that moment calms the mind. As we know, it is not a
> matter of concentration or determining to practise
> samatha. If one aims or plans for this, there is bound
> to be attachment.
> 
> As we know, it's very useful to study the 40 objects
> because samatha bhavana can be practised now. Right
> now, there are different moments of metta and
> attachment. By studying and knowing the difference
> precisely when these different cetasikas arise, there
> can be conditions for calm to increase with metta as
> object without the need to try. Of course, it will
> depend on different accumulations, as you say, as to
> which objects are more clearly understood and likely
> to  be objects of samatha. Like you, I find that wise
> reflection on death can be very useful and sobering.
> 
> I enjoyed the following example of dana as object from
> samatha by K.Sujin, which I just copied from your
> website under 'Deeds of Merit, part 1':
> 
> "When we have performed a deed of generosity there can
> again be kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on
> the daana or generous deed we have performed with
> cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, when someone has
> accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds
> of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his
> deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure
> and steadfast in kusala. Some people can have
> steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of
> access-concentration [6. This is the development of
> tranquil meditation, samatha, with recollection of
> generosity (caagaanusati) as meditation subject."<end
> quote>
> 
> According to my understanding, this is not by wishing
> to have kusala or samatha or by determining which is
> the right object at this moment in daily life. If
> there are no deeds of generosity when we have the
> opportunity to give and no understanding of precisely
> which moments are kusala, then there will be no
> conditions of samatha with dana as object.> 
> 
> Finally, you say
> 
> > If one feels that samatha or some
> > other means
> > helps one in life by all means carry on with it. But
> > hearing
> > about the difference between samatha and
> > satipatthana helps to
> > condition some investigation of what is actually
> > happening).
> 
> I don't understand samatha to be something one can
> 'carry on with'. Like any other reality, a moment of
> samatha is conditioned and anatta, even though there
> is no understanding of paramatha dhamma as anatta at
> that moment.
> 
> All aspects of the dhamma are deep and subtle.
> Reflecting on it at this moment ccan condition moments
> of samatha when the cittas are wholesome. Thank you so
> much for these opportunities and apologies again if
> you feel I am nit-picking unnecessarily !
> 
> Sarah>
> 


 
4695 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  Hi Erik,

You went a little quiet for a while so it's good to
see you back in action!

--- Erik wrote:

> This is interesting, though I do not believe applies
> as readily to 
> jhana meditators, who emphasize cultivating these
> levels of vipassana 
> nana (combined with samatha) alternating with the
> jhanas, and usually 
> spend time outside meditation accumulating kusala
> (while of course 
> always applying sati in daily life).

sounds like a pretty tall order to me...!! 
> 
> But to
> hell with the 
> writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever.
> What I know is 
> that this tactic works extremely well from my own
> experience,

Is this the same 'Erik' who was urging us all to find
specific references just a couple of weeks ago, I
wonder??? Maybe it was that iced coffee with Cybele
that made the difference!

 that 
> this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful
> states of mind 
> and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such
> is in 100% accord 
> with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in
> the final 
> analysis, is all that matters.

Last night I was reading the long introduction by
R.E.Iggleden to the PTS translation of Vibhanga, 'Book
of Analysis'. I'd like to quote from it here because
he writes a lot better than I could and I'm sure you
will agree with what he says:

'Why then is it that the Buddhist Scriptures contain
such an enormous amount of highly analytical material
with theoretical examination of the minuite points of
psychology, and what might almost be called
hair-splitting degrees of examination of mental
factors, word meanings, causal relations and minutiae
of behaviour?  The reasons are plain, easy to
comprehend and logical in argument.  Whatever it is
one wishes to do- and paticularly in the case of the
ataining of Nibbana which to the beginner can be only
a concept- it is very helpful to have a guide as to
what course should be taken and as to what is the
meaning of this or that, otherwise one works only on a
basis of trial and error.

It is all very well to say, 'I know what is right and
what is wrong'.  The fact is, very few people do know
when it comes to the precision of moral behaviour
essential to correct development toward release.  It
is this exactitude of behaviour; mental, verbal and
physical, and the consequences thereof, that the
Scriptures elucidate in detail.....

.....However, scholastic and analytic knowledge just
for its own sake is worse than useless, it is a
burden.  the aim is to gain understanding of causes
and effects so that practice may be guided and
fostered along the very very difficult path to
emancipation from suffering.  The purpose of close
study of the scriptures is not to make oneself a mine
of technical information, this will probably stimulate
pride and egotism.  It is to use all the vast mass of
invaluable information as a guide, a corrective and as
a means by which, when coupled with incesssant right
practice, the whole concept of 'I', 'me' and 'Mine'
may disintegrate utterly.'<end quote>

Rob, there are also interesting parallels drawn
between the suttas and abhidhamma and somewhere (can't
find it now) he emphasises how instead of being a
later addition, the abhidhamma is the foundation which
the suttas were developed from....well worth reading
imho.

He also stresses how 'it should always be remembered
that at the time of the Buddha, India stood at a very
high level of civilization, and that its philosophers
were specialists to a supreme degree in matters of
analysis, logic and argument.......the terminology he
used, therefore, needed to be precise in statement,
exact in definition and capable of being expressed
within whatever framework of classification it was
necessary to use to show what was Right View
Sammaditthi) and what was False View (Micchaditthi).'

I've rather lost my thread, so I'll leave it here!

Sarah




 
4696 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan)

 
  Sarah,

Thanks for the really excellent quotation.

mike


 
4697 From: Antony 
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 8:01pm
Subject: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Hello meditators...

oops sorry, wrong list!

Well I've been so busy I can hardly get to a computer to log on. but 
here I am. I have been following the threads as much as I can: 
Vissudhimagga is online, watch out for the copyright on it, deal with 
your akusala as best you can, develop skillful means I think the 
Buddha said about it didn't he. Oh yes photo's of Buddhas tooth, that 
is pretty wild.. is there any verification that shows it might be HIS 
tooth? And then I discover that Buddhism is tainted by Hinduism. 
WHAT!! Of course it is, in america it's tainted by americana, in 
Japan those japanese people have tainted it considerably with 
japanese thinking. It is the Buddhist and author Stephen Batchelor 
who has said that this is the reason buddhism has come to us in such 
a good condition, and it is the thing that will allow it to survive 
into the future. 

Oh yes and Pali. Whereforeart thou pali? I have come across this 
term "Bramhi". It is the script used, i read, on the ashokan pillars. 
Should I take this to mean that Bramhi is the langauge or is it an 
older script for pali?

Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing 
off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list 
called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a 
tatooed bikie woman. cool hey?  

Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion?


antony
sydney, it's getting colder, australia.



--- "cybele chiodi"  
wrote:
> 
> Dear Sarah and all
> 
> Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral infection and 
therefore I am 
> still here. I should start working in a pub to pay off my expenses, 
I can 
> hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at all but sure I 
can't 
> complain about boredom.
> I met some members of the list as well and that VERY warm hearted 
American 
> couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very much; they send 
regards.
> I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my friends here are 
Irish or 
> foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with Victoria, so nice 
and 
> sweet.
> I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I am stuck here 
in London 
> and probably will miss him.
> Please if there are other London members listening, please contact 
me - I 
> would like to meet you in real life if you are interested, my virus 
is not 
> contagious promise!
> 
> Sarah wrote:
> >We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of
> >bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality
> >that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day
> >with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and
> >efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go
> >which made it all easy...>
> 
> Wow Sarah he must be my soul mate, if I ever come to Australia I 
have to 
> arrange and meet him; a buddhist not 'limpwristed and mummy style' 
and very 
> 'dynamic' and perhaps 'even warm hearted'.
> Don't worry Antony I am so far away, I am not going to threaten 
your virtue!
> Dear Sarah enjoy your trip and hope to meet you somewhere, somehow 
in my 
> crazy life!
> 
> Lots of love
> Cybele
> 

 
4698 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 8:17pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Hi! Antony,

Great to hear from you!!!  How's your cat, by the way, any adventures 
to share with us?  He's not the one that does 'sitting meditation' 
with you?  

Pali, pali pali pali discussion sounds interesting too!

Hope to hear from you again soon,

Amara


> Hello meditators...
> 
> oops sorry, wrong list!
> 
> Well I've been so busy I can hardly get to a computer to log on. but 
> here I am. I have been following the threads as much as I can: 
> Vissudhimagga is online, watch out for the copyright on it, deal 
with 
> your akusala as best you can, develop skillful means I think the 
> Buddha said about it didn't he. Oh yes photo's of Buddhas tooth, 
that 
> is pretty wild.. is there any verification that shows it might be 
HIS 
> tooth? And then I discover that Buddhism is tainted by Hinduism. 
> WHAT!! Of course it is, in america it's tainted by americana, in 
> Japan those japanese people have tainted it considerably with 
> japanese thinking. It is the Buddhist and author Stephen Batchelor 
> who has said that this is the reason buddhism has come to us in such 
> a good condition, and it is the thing that will allow it to survive 
> into the future. 
> 
> Oh yes and Pali. Whereforeart thou pali? I have come across this 
> term "Bramhi". It is the script used, i read, on the ashokan 
pillars. 
> Should I take this to mean that Bramhi is the langauge or is it an 
> older script for pali?
> 
> Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing 
> off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list 
> called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a 
> tatooed bikie woman. cool hey?  
> 
> Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion?
> 
> 
> antony
> sydney, it's getting colder, australia.
> 
> 
> 
> --- "cybele chiodi"  
> wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Sarah and all
> > 
> > Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral infection and 
> therefore I am 
> > still here. I should start working in a pub to pay off my 
expenses, 
> I can 
> > hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at all but sure 
I 
> can't 
> > complain about boredom.
> > I met some members of the list as well and that VERY warm hearted 
> American 
> > couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very much; they send 
> regards.
> > I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my friends here are 
> Irish or 
> > foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with Victoria, so nice 
> and 
> > sweet.
> > I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I am stuck here 
> in London 
> > and probably will miss him.
> > Please if there are other London members listening, please contact 
> me - I 
> > would like to meet you in real life if you are interested, my 
virus 
> is not 
> > contagious promise!
> > 
> > Sarah wrote:
> > >We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of
> > >bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality
> > >that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day
> > >with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and
> > >efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go
> > >which made it all easy...>
> > 
> > Wow Sarah he must be my soul mate, if I ever come to Australia I 
> have to 
> > arrange and meet him; a buddhist not 'limpwristed and mummy style' 
> and very 
> > 'dynamic' and perhaps 'even warm hearted'.
> > Don't worry Antony I am so far away, I am not going to threaten 
> your virtue!
> > Dear Sarah enjoy your trip and hope to meet you somewhere, somehow 
> in my 
> > crazy life!
> > 
> > Lots of love
> > Cybele
> > 


 
4699 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Erik)

 
  Erik,

> > I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the
> > Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more
> > kusala.  In essence, he taught the development of
> the
> > understanding that leads to the eradication of
> > ignorance.  It is ignorance that must be overcome
> if
> > all akusala is to be eradicated.  
> 
> I do consider the treatment on kusala and akusala
> more valuable in 
> most instances for most people. For most people--and
> by this I mean 
> those who are nowhere near the level of true
> insight--this is more 
> important than developing vipassana nana.

My comments were directed to the question of what is
meant by satipatthana and vipassana.  I am saying
that, correctly understood, satipatthana and vipassana
are about the development of awareness and
understanding of the nature of the reality arising at
the present moment, in order to dispel the ignorance
we have about that reality.  Is this a fair summary,
would you say?

 You
> mention the nivaranas. 
> Those nivaranas will prevent any deep vipassanana
> nana from arising 
> if they are not pacified, as you noted.

As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must be
pacified if jhana is to be attained.  As far as
vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due
course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely
pacified;  and they are eradicated by the very
understanding that is being developed.

 It is also
> extremely 
> important to have accumulated large stocks of merit
> if one has any 
> hope for the arising of magga & phala nana.
> Accumulating kusala is 
> the only way I know of to effect this, excepting in
> those cases there 
> is already enough merit and wisdom present from
> previous activities.

And a moment of satipatthana is the highest level of
kusala that can be experienced at any ordinary moment.

...

> Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations
> of Mindfulness 
> (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta):
> 
> "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in &
> of itself? There 
> is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion,
> discerns that 
> the mind has passion. When the mind is without
> passion, he discerns 
> that the mind is without passion. When the mind has
> aversion, he 
> discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind
> is without 
> aversion, he discerns that the mind is without
> aversion. When the 
> mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has
> delusion. When the 
> mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind
> is without 
> delusion."
> 
> That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that
> observing mental states 
> is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha.

The mind is one of 4 'foundations' which between them
cover all realities as object of awareness.  The
'emphasis' given to the mind is thus no more that the
emphasis given to rupas or to feeling or to mind
objects.

But more to the point of our topic (Dealing with
akusala), the passage clearly indicates that mind with
lobha, dosa or moha is to be known as mind with lobha,
dosa or moha, nothing more.

 But to
> hell with the 
> writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever.
> What I know is 
> that this tactic works extremely well from my own
> experience, that 
> this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful
> states of mind 
> and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such
> is in 100% accord 
> with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in
> the final 
> analysis, is all that matters.

There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what you
say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma
taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its early
commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy books'.

Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who
have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' to
think that they no longer need the texts as their
guide.  This belief, which is probably fostered by
certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous
conceit, in my view.  I am not saying that you fall
into this category, but there is something of this
idea in what you have just said.  I think it is
essential to stick to the texts as one's touchstone.

Jon



 
4700 From: McCall 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 1:25am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear Amara,
I don't know how else to try and explain myself to you, but once 
again please bare with me sir, You cannot learn something that is 
already inside you, one can only rediscover the Dhamma---that is 
exactly what had occurred to the lord Buddha. Nobody taught the 
Dhamma to the Lord Buddha. All the Dhamma that was ever spoken, 
written, implied, whispered, hinted, shouted, is inside us. (if you 
are well read you will realize who uttered these words)

I apologize if this post may seem rude it was not meant to be.

With respect always
Buddha Dhamma Sangha
Marlon McCall
Singapore
PS PLEASE PLEASE AMARA my name is Marlon not Malcolm


--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > To Understand the Dhamma requires comprehension of the contex of 
> Lord 
> > Buddhas intent and intention. Please use this ability for other 
> > aspects of daily life and not only when devoted to Dhamma 
reading. 
> > Please try to Live Buddhism and not only practice it. All the 
Dhamma 
> > ever written is in all of us. We only have to find ourselves and 
we 
> > found the Dhamma. You cannot learn the Dhamma. 
> 
> Dear Malcolm,
> 
> The Buddha would not spend 45 years of his life, indeed over twenty 
> hours of each day of those years teaching the dhamma if he did not 
> know that others could in deed 'learn the Dhamma'.   
>

 
4701 From: Joe 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:03am
Subject: pitaka gurudom

 
  Hi Jonothan et al

As usual I've been following this list very much as a lurker -- hey 
I'm better at lurking than just about anything else, I do it for a 
living after all! -- and this point about the pitakas being the 
ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth examining beyond 
the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know what works for me" 
kind of dialog I often see here. 

At essence is the question "Can we say that the pitakas are 100% 
infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and forgive me if I 
misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only insofar as we verify 
their contents through our own experience," and your response, 
Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much room for individual 
interpretation of Buddhadharma.

I've been studying, intermittently over the last 20 years or so, the 
history of the development of Buddhism in Asia as background for art 
history research, and now that I know a bit more about this history, 
e.g., how many different pitaka versions exist (the Tibetans and the 
Chinese, for example, claiming to have 'lost' Sanskrit chapters , 
etc), I've become almost fond of the rough spots we all seem to be 
rubbing against, as a genre worthy of investigation in and of itself.

I'm not talking about one's personal experience of pitaka contents, 
or that of one's venerable teachers, but rather the question of 
whether there is anything we can conclusively say about the validity 
of the generally accepted Pali canon (not to mention the widely 
varying translations of the Kalama Sutta, for example, one sees). 
This applies irrespective of how well you may know the Tripitaka, 
e.g., how many verses you can quote, etc, or what epigraphic evidence 
you might be able to present. How, in fact, do you know whether the 
teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are valid? In answering this 
question can you logically use the texts to justify the texts? If 
not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there be an independent 
judge of the fruits of your practice?

The Sikhs had a lineage of nine great gurus, of whom the last 
and 'final' one was, and still is, their set of holy books, the Guru 
Granth Sahib. The latter have in essence become their eternal 
teacher. 

It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for some Buddhists, 
even where the latter insist they do not follow gurus. I'm not 
suggesting that this is your personal stance, Jon, but it's one that 
bubbles up from time to time on this discussion list. 

There are Christians and Muslims who similarly claim to derive all of 
their faith directly from reading the Bible or the Koran. Many have 
formed their own fundamentalist sects, each claiming to offer the 
correct interpretation of the Book. Their interpretations often 
differ, even contradict one another. Yet each says, very much as I 
sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever you want about the 
way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you don't understand it 
the way we do, then you're not really following the Bible/Koran, 
you're not really following Jesus Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.'

Thus I can understand why some practitioners might place unwritten 
dharma transmission  -- person to person transmission, as in Tibetan 
or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins (those who follow 
this or that living teacher) -- above written transmission, 
especially when the latter can be complicated by differing 
translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' sutras, Sanskrit vs 
Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of undefined Pali 
terms, etc. 

Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact same Pali canon, 
e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can come up with two 
rather different interpretations.

Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on written or 
spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one could argue that one 
is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha, but from 
intermediary sources. This will always remain a tactical conundrum 
for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may argue that the 
Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you have the only 
correct interpretation of it. 

If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth or set of truths, 
one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths might be self-
evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they can be understood 
through a text or set of texts, then one might argue this is a sort 
of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that depend on 
language and on a consensual understanding of language -- 
a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam Chomsky. A logical 
loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.

On the other hand one might be tempted to think that Buddhadharma 
goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the Tripitaka in fact 
a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life or perhaps 
innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On cracking the code, one 
tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or is the language 
a reflection or a trace of something else that might be accessed in 
other ways? 

I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma. For me it goes back to a 
much earlier discussion we got involved in (or was that Triple Gem? I 
forget) about whether Buddhism can be considered truly 'scientific'. 

I'm not offering any resolutions myself (sorry!), but rather am 
presenting the problem with the intention of finding a bridge across 
the apparent gap between the logo and anti-logo stances. 

When the entanglements unravel, right view will arise. Until then 
hearing all the possibilities and opinions is stimulating and often 
challenging. 

Sorry if this is an over-long post, or if it covers ground already 
well trampled. 

Looking forward to lurking behind further discussions, as always.

from Chiang Mai, 

Joe

--- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Erik,
> 
> > > I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the
> > > Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more
> > > kusala.  In essence, he taught the development of
> > the
> > > understanding that leads to the eradication of
> > > ignorance.  It is ignorance that must be overcome
> > if
> > > all akusala is to be eradicated.  
> > 
> > I do consider the treatment on kusala and akusala
> > more valuable in 
> > most instances for most people. For most people--and
> > by this I mean 
> > those who are nowhere near the level of true
> > insight--this is more 
> > important than developing vipassana nana.
> 
> My comments were directed to the question of what is
> meant by satipatthana and vipassana.  I am saying
> that, correctly understood, satipatthana and vipassana
> are about the development of awareness and
> understanding of the nature of the reality arising at
> the present moment, in order to dispel the ignorance
> we have about that reality.  Is this a fair summary,
> would you say?
> 
>  You
> > mention the nivaranas. 
> > Those nivaranas will prevent any deep vipassanana
> > nana from arising 
> > if they are not pacified, as you noted.
> 
> As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must be
> pacified if jhana is to be attained.  As far as
> vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due
> course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely
> pacified;  and they are eradicated by the very
> understanding that is being developed.
> 
>  It is also
> > extremely 
> > important to have accumulated large stocks of merit
> > if one has any 
> > hope for the arising of magga & phala nana.
> > Accumulating kusala is 
> > the only way I know of to effect this, excepting in
> > those cases there 
> > is already enough merit and wisdom present from
> > previous activities.
> 
> And a moment of satipatthana is the highest level of
> kusala that can be experienced at any ordinary moment.
> 
> ...
> 
> > Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations
> > of Mindfulness 
> > (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta):
> > 
> > "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in &
> > of itself? There 
> > is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion,
> > discerns that 
> > the mind has passion. When the mind is without
> > passion, he discerns 
> > that the mind is without passion. When the mind has
> > aversion, he 
> > discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind
> > is without 
> > aversion, he discerns that the mind is without
> > aversion. When the 
> > mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has
> > delusion. When the 
> > mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind
> > is without 
> > delusion."
> > 
> > That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that
> > observing mental states 
> > is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha.
> 
> The mind is one of 4 'foundations' which between them
> cover all realities as object of awareness.  The
> 'emphasis' given to the mind is thus no more that the
> emphasis given to rupas or to feeling or to mind
> objects.
> 
> But more to the point of our topic (Dealing with
> akusala), the passage clearly indicates that mind with
> lobha, dosa or moha is to be known as mind with lobha,
> dosa or moha, nothing more.
> 
>  But to
> > hell with the 
> > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever.
> > What I know is 
> > that this tactic works extremely well from my own
> > experience, that 
> > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful
> > states of mind 
> > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such
> > is in 100% accord 
> > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in
> > the final 
> > analysis, is all that matters.
> 
> There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what you
> say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma
> taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its early
> commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy books'.
> 
> Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who
> have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' to
> think that they no longer need the texts as their
> guide.  This belief, which is probably fostered by
> certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous
> conceit, in my view.  I am not saying that you fall
> into this category, but there is something of this
> idea in what you have just said.  I think it is
> essential to stick to the texts as one's touchstone.
> 
> Jon
> 


 
4702 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:15am
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Erik)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:

Hi Jon,

> My comments were directed to the question of what is
> meant by satipatthana and vipassana.  I am saying
> that, correctly understood, satipatthana and vipassana
> are about the development of awareness and
> understanding of the nature of the reality arising at
> the present moment, in order to dispel the ignorance
> we have about that reality.  Is this a fair summary,
> would you say?

I would word it differently because this definition is not as 
inclusive, being mainly geared toward sukhavipassika practitioners. 
What I was pointing out is that another modality exists, one in which 
this approach to practice is not emphasized, there being other 
practices considered more effective for people with certain 
accumulations. What is emphasized in my schools is cultivating 
vipassana in union with samatha in jhana meditation.

> As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must be
> pacified if jhana is to be attained.  

This does not accord with my understanding. As far as I know each of 
the five rupajhanas act as antidotes for the nivaranas, specifically 
in the following order:

1. vitakka/thina & middha
2. vicara/vicikicca
3. piti/vyapada
4. sukha/udaccha & kukuccha
5. samadhi/kamachanda

> As far as
> vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due
> course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely
> pacified;

Of course. No Buddhist would ever imply otherwise. But you have to 
pacify them first before concentration becomes strong enough for the 
deepest levels vipassana nana. This is one point I was making.

>  But to
> > hell with the 
> > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever.
> > What I know is 
> > that this tactic works extremely well from my own
> > experience, that 
> > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful
> > states of mind 
> > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such
> > is in 100% accord 
> > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in
> > the final 
> > analysis, is all that matters.
> 
> There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what you
> say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma
> taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its early
> commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy books'.

The ultimate source of the Dharma is what is realized by application 
of the Buddha's prescription. There is no inconsistency. And even if 
there were, some inconsistency is hardly a problem when discussing 
Dharma, given the Buddha contradicted himself all over the place in 
the Suttas (if one merely looks at what he said; not at what he 
actually meant, that is).

> Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who
> have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' to
> think that they no longer need the texts as their
> guide.  This belief, which is probably fostered by
> certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous
> conceit, in my view.

My very presence here directly contradicts this idea. And just to be 
clear, the Tibetan Geluk lineage is hardcore about scholasticism and 
deep study, and in my totally unbiased opinion puts to shame every 
other linage I've yet encountered in terms of its rigorous scholastic 
approach to analysis and hermeneutics. The training program for 
Geshes (Doctors of Buddhist Philosophy) runs 22 years of intensive 
study covering everything from the Prajnaparamita literature to 
debate, logic, and Abhidharma. The entire lineage is defined by this 
approach, so I am certain you can't be referring to either myself or 
any of my teachers here! :)

> I am not saying that you fall
> into this category, but there is something of this
> idea in what you have just said.

I'm glad you qualified this. And there is an even greater danger as I 
see it: becoming too enamoured of the words of texts themselves, and 
forgetting those words are simply maps for what we are supposed to be 
actualizing in our direct experience. Unless direct experience is the 
primary emphasis, then study itself degenerates into a sterile 
intellectual exercise. I'm not saying you fall into this category, 
but it is just as great a danger--getting so enamoured of the fingers 
that one forgets to look where those fingers are pointing.

Quick note to Sarah, asking if I've CHANGED from the time I was 
writing Cybele?! Now, what sort of a Buddhist would as such a silly 
question!!! :) Seriously, my opinion on the primacy of direct 
experience hasn't changed since then, not one iota. When I work with 
scriptural references I am honoring the tradition in Tibetan Debate 
(actually from Dharmakirti's Pramanavartika) that forces one to refer 
to definitive sources accepted by all parties. One cannot use sources 
not accepted by everyone.

Anyway, great stuff!

(Got any ideas for better Pali sign-offs other than anumodhana? :)
Erik

 
4703 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:47am
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thank you for your reply. I am always marvelling at and grateful for 
the wisdom in your speech (typing :-). I am sure I must come across 
harshly, I do try, but sometimes forget that there are more ways to 
express the truth than with a bulldozer.

I appreciate the lack of flaming on this site, and the way that the 
list members will resort to wisdom and compassion or even silence 
(wisdom and silence are not mutually exclusive) before they embark on 
a reply.

I have promised myself that I will not reply to the recent rocket 
attack on "the Jains" until I know that I know that I know that I am 
not sitting in my bulldozer.


--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Herman,
> 
> Your active participation and posts are most welcome,
> even though I don't always agree with all your
> comments.
> 
> --- Herman wrote: 
> > 
> > The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by
> > adherence to human 
> > social conventions.
> 
> nor by non-adherence.....

This is a good point. Thank you for making it. I guess the key is 
awareness.
> > 
> > It is more difficult for a person attached to
> > property of any kind to 
> > develop insight than just about anything else.
> 

Sorry, but I did say attached to property, not just having property.

> Does having property of any kind necessitate having
> more attachment to it? Can we measure the attachment
> by the objects? What about wrong view and ignorance?
> 
> May I quote from the Sigalovada Sutta (DNiii 187) from
> the section on Friends:
> 
> 'On four grounds the friend who is a helper is to be
> reckoned as sound at heart:- he guards you when you
> are off your guard, he guards your property when you
> are off your guard; he is a refuge to you when you are
> afraid; when you have tasks to perform he provides a
> double supply (of what you may need).....'
> 
> Of course it is the second ground I had in mind.
> Although I agree in your other post that we only have
> 'temporary use, temporary benefit of all that is given
> us', this doesn't mean we shouldn't respect others'
> property or unwisely give ours away.
> 

I agree with you entirely. They say that property is 9/ 10ths of the 
law. I guess that could indicate that sometimes it is a little bit 
hard to determine who owns what, or that property tends to be the 
subject of way too much attention.

I think it is an excellent compromise to allow some chapters of the 
Viss.....gga to be shared on the Internet

> Best Rgds,
> 
> Sarah
> 
> p.s missing that cold surf already...;-) 
> 
>
We are having a very warm autumn, between 26 and 28 degrees every 
day, and that's slightly west of the mountains. Sydney would be 
almost hot, I'd say

All the very best

Herman
 
 


4704 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:55am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thank you so much for the reply. Sorry to disappoint, but I found 
nothing controversial in it:-). Thank you for the time and effort in 
replying to this, and for the effort in maintaining the list.

Kind regards


Herman

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Herman,
> 
> Excellent questions....let me share what I understand
> as Jon may delay as he is collecting quite a few posts
> to reply to!
> 
> --- Herman wrote:
> >  
> > > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not
> > the
> > > same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> > > appears at the present moment.  This is a
> > difficult
> > > proposition to accept, but one well worth
> > considering
> > > sometime.
> > 
> > Jon,
> > 
> > What is targeting if there is no self? What is
> > studying if there is 
> > no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very
> > difficult 
> > proposition to express. The targeting mind, the
> > studying mind. What 
> > about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses
> > not to act, or 
> > inhibits an action already starting.  Thought
> > without corresponding 
> > verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of
> > future 
> > potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it?
> > To feel anger, and 
> > yet act compassionately? What is the name for that?
> > What is the name 
> > for choice, decision?
> 
> -targeting in this context sounds to me like thinking
> with view of self that can direct an object for sati
> 
> -studying/being aware is sati of satipatthana (even if
> at a very beginning level for just an instant)
> 
> -the mind that sees its impulsions is panna (rt
> undestanding) that accompanies citta (consciousness)
> and recognizes the akusala (unwholesome) mental state
> for an instant (with or without undestanding of not
> self depending)
> 
> - chooses not to act is cetana (intention) which
> arises at every moment. There can be intention not to
> act one moment and yet acting the next...so anatta
> (not self).Or yes unwholesome intention and starting
> to act followed by wholesome intention and stopping
> the act.
> 
> -thought (what thinking thinks about) is a concept,
> pannati. Thinking is real and can be wholesome or
> unwholesome, thinking about any concepts there are
> conditions to think about. Different moments of
> thinking with dosa, thinking with compassion and so
> on.
> 
> -choice, decision- again I stress is cetana
> (intention). This is a universal mental factor which
> means it arises with every citta. It's conditioned at
> this moment to be just the way it is. It cannot be
> changed or altered by wishing it another way.
> 
> None of this means that it isn't helpful to take a
> cold swim or whatever else we find useful when
> overwhelmed with dosa. If there are conditions to take
> the cold swim, we'll do it anyway. What the Buddha has
> taught us is to understand these different realities
> more and more precisely, deeper and deeper while
> screaming or while taking the plunge in order to
> detach from the idea of self that can control them. 
> 
> Look forward to your different views,
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 

 
4705 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:58am
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  Jon,

Thank you for the reply , and the time and effort that has gone into 
it (in a conventional sense, of course :-) . I gathered from a recent 
post that you have no children. Well, you have plenty of dhamma kids, 
and I do not doubt that these can be a bit trying at times. Thank you 
for your patience.

--- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Herman
> 
> Some earlier posts of yours were next on my list to
> reply to, but this latest post seems to call for a
> prompt response, so here goes.
> 
> > > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is
> > better
> > > implies that there is something we can do about
> > the
> > > akusala that has already arisen.  I would prefer
> > to
> > > say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala,
> > 
> > This I understand.
> > 
> >  and we
> > > should get to know more about each by being aware
> > of
> > > the characteristic of it as it arises. 
> > 
> > And this I do not understand. What is this
> > "shoulding"? How 
> > does "shoulding" arise? I think mixing Abhidhamma
> > modes of expression 
> > and conventional modes of expression is fatal to
> > understanding.
> 
> I'm sorry about any confusion or lack of clarity.  Let
> me try again. Kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala,
> and the characteristic of each can be known--this is
> the path taught by the Buddha.
> 
> By chance, what I was trying to say is explained in
> the passage from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta quoted in
> Erik's post.  If I may paraphrase that passage,
> whether the citta is kusala or akusala, there can be
> awareness of the citta as it is, as kusala or akusala.
>  There is no support there for a need to 'deal with'
> the akusala cittas arising.
> 
> >  There is no
> > > need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it
> > is
> > > just another reality to be known.
> > 
> > If fazing arises , isn't it just so, nothing more
> > nothing less?
> 
> Yes, that is so, but if we hold the view that certain
> akusala arising is a hindrance to the development of
> the path and needs to be dealt with, then we'll be
> fazed a lot more that if we understand, even if only
> at an intellectual level, that the akusala is just
> another reality, nothing special.
> 
> > Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your
> > opinion, there can be 
> > directed effort towards a goal?
> 
> Well Herman, here it is, for what it's worth.
> 
> In a conventional sense, of course there can be
> directed effort towards a goal.  I expect there's no
> argument about this.  In an absolute sense, though, I
> would say there cannot be.  My understanding of the
> teaching on this is as follows.  
> 
> 'Goal' is a concept and so, in this sense, is 'effort'
> (the cetasika that is effort does not equate to effort
> as conventionally referred to).  'Directed effort
> towards a goal' is a conventional mode of expression
> which is used to describe a whole series of processes
> of cittas (moments of consciousness) and their
> accompanying cetasikas (mental factors).  Each of
> these cittas arises for a moment with its accompanying
> cetasikas to perform its function and then falls away.
>  Because of our ignorance, the reality of these
> processes and their multitudinous conditioning factors
> is invisible to us, and so we form the concept of
> directed effort towards a goal.
> 
> The same applies to choice or decisions (a question
> raised in an earlier post of yours).  There is no
> absolute reality that is choice or decision, these are
> concepts used to describe a certain series of cittas
> which think about which one to choose, which way to
> go, whether to do A or B etc.  The reality of these
> moments is just different kinds of thinking.  There is
> nothing absolute about a decision or choice until the
> relevant act (through body, speech or mind) is done,
> so of itself it means nothing.  Even in conventional
> terms, we know that no decision is 'final' in the
> sense that it cannot be changed, and it often happens
> that it does change, sometimes against our conscious
> wish.
> 
> Herman, I would be equally interested to hear your
> thoughts on this question.

Thanks for the invite. I'll give you a bit of an introduction.

I came to this group via Nina van Gorkoms site. I read some stuff on 
there which made steam come out of my ears. It was a discourse which 
basically said that to direct attention anywhere was no good etc etc 
etc. I think the discourse is called "Be here now".

Then I joined this list and found very similar sorts of expressions, 
even to the point where it started to sound like being was a lottery, 
you are in samsara because of a lottery, every now and then another 
lottery is drawn and awareness of  being in a lottery arises for a 
short moment, then more conditions conditioning further conditions. 
Nibbana arises only after you have won the lottery a million times in 
a row, and then you probably were asleep when that happened, and had 
to start from scratch again. All very disheartening really. I was 
probably reading it all wrong.

I do believe effort can be directed.

Allow me to give a conventional example, a true life story.

I have been off work for the last few days because my body has broken 
out in rashes, from head to to toe I am a maze of wilts , hives and 
red splotches. Very itchy, very uncomfartable, very sore. I am 
suffering. The doctor and I believe it is an allergic reaction to 
something and that I am still exposed to the something as the 
reaction is not abating. Through a process of elimination the doctor 
and I now have to work out what has caused this allergic reaction. So 
I need to , one by one, eliminate things from my diet and environment 
that have only recently been added, to see if my skin clears up. We 
don't know what to remove first, but just by trial and error we start 
somewhere. You get the drift. And if after eliminating all different 
possibilities I am still a splotchy mess, I'd better get used to it :-
)

There is free will and choice in this conventional example. Spurred 
on by my awareness of my suffering, I am looking for the cause of 
suffering, so that it may be eliminated.

I believe this free will and choice is available at mind level as 
well. This is what it says in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha CHAPTER III -
 Miscellaneous Section.

"This javana stage is the most important from a ethical standpoint. 
It is at this psychological stage that good or evil is actually done. 
Irrespective of the desirability or the undesirability of the object 
presented to the mind, one can make the Javana process good or bad. 
If, for instance, one meets an enemy, a thought of hatred will arise 
almost automatically. A wise and forbearing person might, on the 
contrary, harbour a thought of love towards him. This is the reason 
why the Buddha has stated in the Dhammapada (V. 165)

 

"By self is evil done,

By self is one defiled,

By self is no evil done,

By self is one purified." 

True indeed that circumstances, habitual tendencies, environment, 
etc., condition our thoughts. Then the freewill is subordinated to 
the mechanistic course of events. There is also the possibility to 
overcome those external forces and, exercising one's own freewill, 
generate either good or bad thoughts. 

A foreign element may be instrumental, but we ourselves are directly 
responsible for our own actions."

I have found my greatest freedom to consist of not-acting, not-doing, 
to direct my effort towards silence.

I hope that at least some of the above makes sense.

Wishing you all that is good

Herman


> 
> > Kind Regards
> > 
> > Herman
> 
> Thanks for your perceptive observations and questions.
> 
> Jon
> 

 
4706 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:37am
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  Thank you , Joe, for a very well written post.

Kind Regards



Herman

 
4707 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:42am
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  --- Antony wrote:
> Hello meditators...
> 
> 
> Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion?
> 
> 
> antony
> sydney, it's getting colder, australia.
> 
Hi there Antony,

I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're 
having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's getting 
colder.

Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-)


All the best


Herman

 
4708 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:50am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  > Dear Amara,
> I don't know how else to try and explain myself to you, but once 
> again please bare with me sir, You cannot learn something that is 
> already inside you, one can only rediscover the Dhamma---that is 
> exactly what had occurred to the lord Buddha. Nobody taught the 
> Dhamma to the Lord Buddha. All the Dhamma that was ever spoken, 
> written, implied, whispered, hinted, shouted, is inside us. (if you 
> are well read you will realize who uttered these words)
> 
> I apologize if this post may seem rude it was not meant to be.
> 
> With respect always
> Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> Marlon McCall
> Singapore
Ø PS PLEASE PLEASE AMARA my name is Marlon not Malcolm


Dear Marlon,

First I am very sorry I keep addressing you with the wrong name, it 
must have been very irritating, thank you for having the patience to 
remind my middle aged brain in such a nice manner, I really 
appreciated it.

This post of yours seems the opposite of rude to me, your style is as 
usual rather direct and hard, but the message is very polite and 
considerate, especially after the disagreement we have had.  Thank you 
again for separating the issues.

I must say our differences of opinion remain, as from my studies only 
the Buddha could become self enlightened, and there could be only one 
Buddha at a time, whereas the pacceka Buddha could arise in groups or 
singly.  But no Buddha could arise when the sasana is still extant, 
only when Buddhism has completely disappeared to the last word and 
there is an intermittent period of complete ignorance could another 
Buddha or Pacceka Buddhas become self enlightened.  All others, even 
the greatest disciples, become enlightened through a Buddha's 
teachings.  Although the Pacceka Buddhas also teach, they could never 
enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a Buddha could have all 
the powers to do that, according to the texts.

Most people who do not study the Tipitaka/Commentaries would think 
that all a Buddha had to do is to meditate under some tree and all the 
knowledge would pop into his mind and he would become omniscient.  The 
greatness and uniqueness of being a Buddha is not accumulated in a 
short lifetime or even ten, but as I wrote in message 2926 in our 
archives, and I paste the relevant part here:

The Buddha had accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields 
through 4 assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he 
was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself.  His 
great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, in         
comparison, from the time of their individual predictions.  You can  
read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for his    
Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.

(end quote)

I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes 100,000 kappa.  

Things do not happen out of the blue, even with the teachings 
established, from which we could learn how to accumulate panna.  One 
no longer lives in an era where those who have accumulated great 
panna, ready to become enlightened with a single word from the Buddha, 
would arise.  Twenty-five centuries and more separate us from the 
supreme teacher and his great disciples.  We could study or sit 
forever and not gain enlightenment if we did not know that our 
attachment to the concept of 'attainment' could block the path to 
panna.  

Panna must be accumulated as such, to know things one has never known 
before, to know the truth of things as they really are, nama 
(intelligence, reality that experiences or knows, consciousness, the 
difference between us and a dead person with the very same physical 
attributes), and rupa (everything else, not only visible objects but 
tangible, audible, etc, including energy, invisible gasses, and outer 
space).  In short you are right to say that all we need to become 
enlightened can be found inside us, once the Buddha had told us where 
to look.  

We are all composed of nama and rupa, in fact all that exists are only 
nama and rupa.  Yet we take this as a whole, us, our selves.  In 
reality we could never have the memory of our I without the six senses 
and the physical attributes, it is through the six senses that we 
experience anything at all.  Could you think of any other way you 
could learn anything save through these senses?  Then the feelings or 
emotions one derives from these dvara (ways, sense doors) and our 
accumulations from an eternity of past lives make us want more of the 
experiences: we want to continue to see, to read more messages, to see 
people we like, friends and family.  

We still want to hear more of the wind whispering on the mountain top, 
the sound of recitals and bells in the distance, the voices of people 
we like, if not music and such.  We travel to certain places just to 
experience or re-experience desirable objects to our senses, according 
to the demands of our 'selves' and memory of our experiences and 
thoughts as accumulated in 'our' memories.  Without memory, or the 
wrong memory since what is merely nama and rupa is taken for us, we 
would have much less clinging.  

Right memory could be cultivated with the study of things as they 
really are.  In the Tipitaka innumerable references are made to the 
eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, their impermanence and 
the reason why we should not cling to them.  Right now there is 
seeing, and visible objects, arising from conditions to make us feel 
that we see.  No matter how we look at it, it is still us who see, our 
computer, our messages and reasoning.  Actually what appears right now 
is just color and shapes, and the reality that sees, their 
characteristics so different from sound and the reality that hears, of 
the tactile objects at the fingertips and the experience of the chair 
we sit on.  All ever changing according to conditions, none 
controllable by anyone, you could not choose not to read this since it 
is already done, according to conditions.  In all this nama and rupa, 
where does the self reside, if we do not think about it?

This is the truth within ourselves that can enlighten us, but only 
when the Buddha had rediscovered it and taught it to us.  He also 
tells us it has to be developed, to be accumulated by studying 
realities as they arise and appear, as much as possible at all times, 
to gain knowledge of their true characteristics of the tilakhana, the 
universal characteristics of all things; as impermanent, ever changing 
and not the self.  The reason it takes the omniscience of a Buddha to 
discover this because nama and rupa arise and fall away so fast it 
seems permanent and lasting, our computer and desk is still there.  
Where is the falling away?  But we know the screen is composed of tiny 
dots of light and color, and even the desk is in fact particles of 
matter, of quarks and atoms, always changing even as we sit here.  But 
this is only intellectual knowledge, we can only theorize according to 
modern explanation.  

The Buddha on the other hand teaches us to prove his teachings about 
ourselves by accumulating panna (right understanding of things as they 
really are) from the development of satipatthana, studying all 
realities that arise and appear to experience their true 
characteristics, through all the dvara they appear through.  The 
accumulated panna, from these tiny instants of experiences, would 
gradually grow, until the moment it is strong enough to show us 
realities, proving to the teachings, according to the level of panna.

Whether we want the knowledge or not, once panna is strong enough the 
corresponding nana would arise and manifest that level of nana to us 
and eliminate any uncertainty of that level of knowledge forever.  
This is the first weak step towards the first level or enlightenment, 
according to the texts.  The sixteen nana would have revealed very 
precise knowledge of things as they really are, before we arrive at 
the elimination of uncertainty about the teachings, and the self, 
permanently, as the sotapanna.  There is no mistaking the nana once it 
has happened, much less the sotapanna attainment, after which the five 
precepts will be permanently pure, automatically.

This is why it could take many lifetimes to accumulate the knowledge 
to become enlightened, even when what we need to study and know are 
inside as well as all around us at all times.

Once again, anumodana with all those who study,

Amara

 
4709 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Erik)

 
  Erik

Thanks for your reply, and for taking my comments in
the constructive spirit in which they were intended. 
The training of your lineage is obviously a real asset
when it comes to discussion on contentious issues.

> > My comments were directed to the question of what
> is
> > meant by satipatthana and vipassana.  I am saying
> > that, correctly understood, satipatthana and
> vipassana
> > are about the development of awareness and
> > understanding of the nature of the reality arising
> at
> > the present moment, in order to dispel the
> ignorance
> > we have about that reality.  Is this a fair
> summary,
> > would you say?
> 
> I would word it differently because this definition
> is not as 
> inclusive, being mainly geared toward sukhavipassika
> practitioners. 
> What I was pointing out is that another modality
> exists, one in which 
> this approach to practice is not emphasized, there
> being other 
> practices considered more effective for people with
> certain 
> accumulations. What is emphasized in my schools is
> cultivating 
> vipassana in union with samatha in jhana meditation.

Yes, but putting aside the question of samatha or no
samatha for a moment, I would be interested to know
what you understand by the term ‘vipassana’.  In my
view, this is the single most important thing we could
be discussing on this list.

> > As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must
> be
> > pacified if jhana is to be attained.  
> 
> This does not accord with my understanding. As far
> as I know each of 
> the five rupajhanas act as antidotes for the
> nivaranas, specifically 
> in the following order:
> 
> 1. vitakka/thina & middha
> 2. vicara/vicikicca
> 3. piti/vyapada
> 4. sukha/udaccha & kukuccha
> 5. samadhi/kamachanda

Yes, but as a temporary antidote only.  The nivaranas
are suppressed but not eradicated.

> > As far as
> > vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due
> > course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely
> > pacified;
> 
> Of course. No Buddhist would ever imply otherwise.
> But you have to 
> pacify them first before concentration becomes
> strong enough for the 
> deepest levels vipassana nana. This is one point I
> was making.

A contentious point, Erik!  Do you have any textual
support for the proposition that the nivaranas must be
pacified by concentration before they can be
eradicated by panna?

> >  But to
> > > hell with the 
> > > writings found in holy books, from gurus,
> whatever.
> > > What I know is 
> > > that this tactic works extremely well from my
> own
> > > experience, that 
> > > this leads to the arising of wholesome and
> skillful
> > > states of mind 
> > > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as
> such
> > > is in 100% accord 
> > > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that,
> in
> > > the final 
> > > analysis, is all that matters.
> > 
> > There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what
> you
> > say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma
> > taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its
> early
> > commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy
> books'.
> 
> The ultimate source of the Dharma is what is
> realized by application 
> of the Buddha's prescription. There is no
> inconsistency. And even if 
> there were, some inconsistency is hardly a problem
> when discussing 
> Dharma, given the Buddha contradicted himself all
> over the place in 
> the Suttas (if one merely looks at what he said; not
> at what he 
> actually meant, that is).

But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika
represents the ‘best evidence’ of the Teachings?

> > Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who
> > have gained a some experience in 'formal practice'
> to
> > think that they no longer need the texts as their
> > guide.  This belief, which is probably fostered by
> > certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous
> > conceit, in my view.
> 
> My very presence here directly contradicts this
> idea. And just to be 
> clear, the Tibetan Geluk lineage is hardcore about
> scholasticism and 
> deep study, and in my totally unbiased opinion puts
> to shame every 
> other linage I've yet encountered in terms of its
> rigorous scholastic 
> approach to analysis and hermeneutics. The training
> program for 
> Geshes (Doctors of Buddhist Philosophy) runs 22
> years of intensive 
> study covering everything from the Prajnaparamita
> literature to 
> debate, logic, and Abhidharma. The entire lineage is
> defined by this 
> approach, so I am certain you can't be referring to
> either myself or 
> any of my teachers here! :)

Thanks for pointing this out, and I am glad to have
this information from someone who knows the position
at first hand.  I do remember Nina Wimuttikusol, who
lurks on this list, mentioning many years ago the
strong study/abhidhamma background of the Tibetan
tradition, and your lineage would seem to exemplify
this.

> > I am not saying that you fall
> > into this category, but there is something of this
> > idea in what you have just said.
> 
> I'm glad you qualified this. And there is an even
> greater danger as I 
> see it: becoming too enamoured of the words of texts
> themselves, and 
> forgetting those words are simply maps for what we
> are supposed to be 
> actualizing in our direct experience. Unless direct
> experience is the 
> primary emphasis, then study itself degenerates into
> a sterile 
> intellectual exercise. I'm not saying you fall into
> this category, 
> but it is just as great a danger--getting so
> enamoured of the fingers 
> that one forgets to look where those fingers are
> pointing.

Absolutely.  Wrong view is incredibly sneaky, and mana
is never far from the surface.  And even if we remind
ourselves of the proper reason for doing what we are
doing, this is no guarantee that our motives are
indeed the right ones.  That is why every instance of
recognition of one’s own wrong view for what it is is
a victory of sorts.

> (Got any ideas for better Pali sign-offs other than
> anumodhana? :)

Nope.  Which is why I usually don’t bother with
sign-offs, using as my excuse the argument that email
is more akin to a face-to-face conversation than to a
formal written exchange.

See ya.

Jon


 
4710 From: Joe 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 0:07pm
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  It's kind of you to say so, Herman. 

--- Herman wrote:
> Thank you , Joe, for a very well written post.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> 
> Herman

 
4711 From: Joe 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: best evidence

 
  PMJI:

> But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika
> represents the `best evidence' of the Teachings?

Sez who? I don't see general agreement among Buddhists on this. 
Certainly many Zen Buddhists wouldn't agree. Even in the Theravada 
tradition, it could be argued that the existence of 
arahants/sotapannas is the best evidence. Certainly the text itself, 
sitting there on paper or palm leaves, is meaningless unless you have 
the ability and inclination to read it. Even then it is only via 
human interpretation -- under the guidance of a teacher or teachers --
 that it becomes meaningful. And the meaning thereby obtained is not 
always consensual (in fact quite the opposite, otherwise we wouldn't 
be having dhamma study discussions). 

ps speaking of interpretation, I'm sure you meant tripitaka, not 
tripitika?

Joe

 
4712 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:24pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> teachings.  Although the Pacceka Buddhas also
> teach, they could never
> enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a
> Buddha could have all
> the powers to do that, according to the texts.

This is an interesting tidbit.  Why can't someone listening
to a Pacceka Buddha become enlightened?  It seems to make
sense that if one accumulating enough pacaya may be
enlightened listening to an enlightened one.  After all, not
all the Ariya disciples became enlightened listening
directly from the Buddha himself.

Do you know which part in the tipitaka mentioned this
phenomenon?

kom

 
4713 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:39pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear K. Amara,

Sorry to reply twice to the same message here...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 

> I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes
> 100,000 kappa.

What I have heard was:
1) For maha-moggalana and sariputta, it took them 1
assankhaya 100,000 kappas from the point of being predicted
by another Sammasam-buddha.
2) For other great disciples, it took some of them 100,000
kappas from the point of being predicted.
3) For Pacceka Buddha, I don't remember the number, but I
believe it takes in the order 2x what it took maha-moggalana
and sariputta, and much much longer than 100,000 kappas.  It
took a longer accumulation and greater parami to become a
pacceka buddha than even the greatest disciple of a Buddha.

> Actually what appears right now is just color and shapes

I think it is just color/visible objects.  Shape is
kanna-pannatti.

kom

 
4714 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear all, 

Before anyone notices another mistake in my last post, I apologize for 
another careless mistake:



> The Buddha had accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields 
> through 4 assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he 
> was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself.  
His 
> great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, in    
> comparison, from the time of their individual predictions.  You can 
> read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for his 
> Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section 
of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.
> 
> (end quote)
> 
> I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes 100,000 kappa.  

It takes ONE assankhaya of kappas for the Pacceka Buddha.

Maybe I should stop writing before I exasperate everyone with my 
terrible sanna!!!


Dear KK,

> > teachings.  Although the Pacceka Buddhas also
> > teach, they could never
> > enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a
> > Buddha could have all
> > the powers to do that, according to the texts.
> 
> This is an interesting tidbit.  Why can't someone listening
> to a Pacceka Buddha become enlightened?  It seems to make
> sense that if one accumulating enough pacaya may be
> enlightened listening to an enlightened one.  After all, not
> all the Ariya disciples became enlightened listening
> directly from the Buddha himself.
> 
> Do you know which part in the tipitaka mentioned this
> phenomenon?

If I remember correctly we deducted it from the fact that nothing in 
the Tipitaka indicated otherwise, much like the fact that no sotapanna 
has ever been reborn on earth after having attained that level that 
was mentioned in the Tipitaka.  Also KS confirmed about the Pacceka in 
one of our recent discussions, as she did some time ago about the 
sotapanna's rebirth on earth not ever being in the Tipitaka.

Some sources as I remember translate the word 'pacceka' as 'silent' 
which is I think gives false impressions since it implies they don't 
teach at all, although they must have since they apparently had 
followers and people who appreciated their great panna.  But some 
commentaries state that they did not have the parami of the 
Sammasambuddha to teach to the level of enlightening people, 
apparently they are compared to a mute who had fallen asleep and 
dreamt, who are therefore unable to tell anyone about what they had 
experienced with any detail, if at all.

It might also be the conditions for the Pacceka Buddha and others of 
their time that are such that even though there are Buddhas around 
their panna were not ready to attain anything at that time, otherwise 
they would have been no distinction between a Buddha and a Pacceka 
necessary.  Of course some of this is merely 'circumstantial evidence' 
but personally I feel that the Tipitaka is the only one, unlike the 
Bible Koran and other religious texts that science has not been able 
to rewrite as in other religions, and the more knowledge we have the 
more things in there are proven as true instead of negated:  the earth 
as flat and the centre of the solar system has long since been proven 
wrong, etc, etc.

Amara

 
4715 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:10pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear KK,

I guess I was writing the reply to this just as you were sending it! 
By now you must have seen it, what do you think?

Thanks for not letting any illogical statements pass for the dhamma, 
which must be more than logical to the last minutest analysis to be 
worth the study to my mind, unlike just mere FAITH as required by most 
religious teaching.

Anumodana to those who study and not just memorize,

Amara


> > I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes
> > 100,000 kappa.
> 
> What I have heard was:
> 1) For maha-moggalana and sariputta, it took them 1
> assankhaya 100,000 kappas from the point of being predicted
> by another Sammasam-buddha.
> 2) For other great disciples, it took some of them 100,000
> kappas from the point of being predicted.
> 3) For Pacceka Buddha, I don't remember the number, but I
> believe it takes in the order 2x what it took maha-moggalana
> and sariputta, and much much longer than 100,000 kappas.  It
> took a longer accumulation and greater parami to become a
> pacceka buddha than even the greatest disciple of a Buddha.
> 
> > Actually what appears right now is just color and shapes
> 
> I think it is just color/visible objects.  Shape is
> kanna-pannatti.
> 
> kom

 
4716 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] best evidence

 
  Joe

Great to have your active participation on the list. 
Am hoping to reply to your blockbuster on Pitaka
Gurudom shortly.

--- Joe wrote: 
> PMJI:

[This is a new one on me]
 
> > But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika
> > represents the `best evidence' of the Teachings?
> 
> Sez who? I don't see general agreement among
> Buddhists on this. 
> Certainly many Zen Buddhists wouldn't agree. Even in
> the Theravada 
> tradition, it could be argued that the existence of 
> arahants/sotapannas is the best evidence. Certainly
> the text itself, 
> sitting there on paper or palm leaves, is
> meaningless unless you have 
> the ability and inclination to read it. Even then it
> is only via 
> human interpretation -- under the guidance of a
> teacher or teachers --
>  that it becomes meaningful. And the meaning thereby
> obtained is not 
> always consensual (in fact quite the opposite,
> otherwise we wouldn't 
> be having dhamma study discussions). 

But points about interpretation aside (just for the
moment, because they are important ones), would you
agree that the Tripitaka is the best evidence we have
of the words that were spoken by the Buddha?
 
> ps speaking of interpretation, I'm sure you meant
> tripitaka, not 
> tripitika?

Thanks for the sp correction.  I should have realised:
Pali 'Tripitaka' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidok'
Not:
Pali 'Tripitika' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidik'
 
> Joe

Looking forward to seeing you in Bkk, if you'll be
there.

Jon


 
4717 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:17pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> > This is an interesting tidbit.  Why can't
> someone listening
> > to a Pacceka Buddha become enlightened?  It
> seems to make
> > sense that if one accumulating enough pacaya may be
> > enlightened listening to an enlightened one.
> After all, not
> > all the Ariya disciples became enlightened listening
> > directly from the Buddha himself.
> >
> > Do you know which part in the tipitaka mentioned this
> > phenomenon?
>
> If I remember correctly we deducted it from the
> fact that nothing in
> the Tipitaka indicated otherwise, much like the
> fact that no sotapanna
> has ever been reborn on earth after having
> attained that level that
> was mentioned in the Tipitaka.

1) I know that there is some explicit text refuting the
existence of another samma-sam buddha when the Buddha alive.
2) It has been mentioned to me many times that Pacceka
buddha cannot arise while the sasana is extant.  Although I
haven't seen the text myself yet, I am convinced that this
must be in the text somewhere.
3) I have heard a story that the Buddha mentioned that once
becoming a sotapanna, one cannot be born lower than a human
janitor / garbage collector.  This is, of course,
contradicted by the birth plane of all the sotapanna
mentioned in the tipitaka.  I am uncomfortable with the
deduction that Sotapanna cannot be reborn as a human.

kom

 
4718 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:19pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear K. Amara,

I don't think the numbers that we posted match up yet!

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:10 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on 
> the Defense of Buddhism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear KK,
> 
> I guess I was writing the reply to this just as 
> you were sending it! 
> By now you must have seen it, what do you think?

 
 
4719 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:56pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  > 1) I know that there is some explicit text refuting the
> existence of another samma-sam buddha when the Buddha alive.
> 2) It has been mentioned to me many times that Pacceka
> buddha cannot arise while the sasana is extant.  Although I
> haven't seen the text myself yet, I am convinced that this
> must be in the text somewhere.
> 3) I have heard a story that the Buddha mentioned that once
> becoming a sotapanna, one cannot be born lower than a human
> janitor / garbage collector.  This is, of course,
> contradicted by the birth plane of all the sotapanna
> mentioned in the tipitaka.  I am uncomfortable with the
> deduction that Sotapanna cannot be reborn as a human.


Dear KK,

If memory serves someone on this list posted something about a world 
where the five precepts are kept with purity by the whole society.  
Since only the sotapanna would be born keeping the precepts naturally, 
it appeals to my imagination that they might be born there, if such a 
world exists or is mentioned in the Tipitaka?  If you ever find 
evidence of that in the texts I would appreciate it if you told me, 
and I will do the same if I can check it out somehow!!!  Perhaps this 
Saturday, unless I forget!!!  Again!!!

By the way I will be away tomorrow but I think I will be back for the 
discussions on Saturday.

Amara

 
4720 From: Joe 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:31pm
Subject: Re: best evidence

 
  Jon

Great, I look forward to your learned response. No rush.

Rereading my quick post on 'best evidence', by the way, I hope I'm 
not giving the impression I didn't think that the Tripitaka isn't 
part of 'the evidence'. It's the matrix within which Buddhism's 
pedagogical dimension has developed, even in its most Zen-like 
permutations. It may be the best historical evidence we have. Living 
Buddhism is the best present evidence -- that's what I mean. Buddhism 
may not exist independently of the pitakas (yet again it may), but 
neither can the pitakas exist independently of their human (and 
perhaps divine) guardians. 

The proof is in the pudding, not in the cookbook, one might say. 

Hope to see you in Bangkok. I have a pretty vivid mental image of a 
man's head that I associate as being you. That image became all the 
more vivid recently when I came across a 1977 photo of that same 
person on the set of The Deer Hunter, where that person was working, 
like me, as an extra at the time. Best evidence. If you weren't an 
extra on The Deer Hunter than the textual evidence evaporates.

Joe

--- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Joe
> 
> Great to have your active participation on the list. 
> Am hoping to reply to your blockbuster on Pitaka
> Gurudom shortly.
> 
> --- <> wrote: 
> > PMJI:
> 
> [This is a new one on me]
>  
> > > But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika
> > > represents the `best evidence' of the Teachings?
> > 
> > Sez who? I don't see general agreement among
> > Buddhists on this. 
> > Certainly many Zen Buddhists wouldn't agree. Even in
> > the Theravada 
> > tradition, it could be argued that the existence of 
> > arahants/sotapannas is the best evidence. Certainly
> > the text itself, 
> > sitting there on paper or palm leaves, is
> > meaningless unless you have 
> > the ability and inclination to read it. Even then it
> > is only via 
> > human interpretation -- under the guidance of a
> > teacher or teachers --
> >  that it becomes meaningful. And the meaning thereby
> > obtained is not 
> > always consensual (in fact quite the opposite,
> > otherwise we wouldn't 
> > be having dhamma study discussions). 
> 
> But points about interpretation aside (just for the
> moment, because they are important ones), would you
> agree that the Tripitaka is the best evidence we have
> of the words that were spoken by the Buddha?
>  
> > ps speaking of interpretation, I'm sure you meant
> > tripitaka, not 
> > tripitika?
> 
> Thanks for the sp correction.  I should have realised:
> Pali 'Tripitaka' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidok'
> Not:
> Pali 'Tripitika' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidik'
>  
> > Joe
> 
> Looking forward to seeing you in Bkk, if you'll be
> there.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 

 
4721 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Hi Antony and Herman,
I hope Herman is right - I'm coming down from Queensland to the Blue
Mountains in a couple of weeks for a retreat.  I'll bring the winter woolies
just in case!
Metta,
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: <Herman>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 1:42 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.


> --- Antony wrote:
> > Hello meditators...
> >
> >
> > Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion?
> >
> >
> > antony
> > sydney, it's getting colder, australia.
> >
> Hi there Antony,
>
> I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're
> having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's getting
> colder.
>
> Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-)
>
>
> All the best
>
>
> Herman
>


 
4722 From: McCall 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:59pm
Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  Dear Amara, and all fellow Buddhists

-----With respect to all others reading, I will omit any Pali 
terminologies in this, and as I have in all other posts and it will 
be in common English(American) for the benefit of all reading. For 
the Pali literate my website http://www.buddhism.per.sg./ In this site 
I have included other thesis I have written on other related aspects 
of Buddhism and they are all available with the necessary Pali-
perfect inclusions. This is only my personal choice of approach to 
the whole aspect of Buddhism and should not apply to anyone else.----

This is not a sermon but only my concept of Buddhism:---

-----What ever it takes to awaken the minds of present day Buddhists 
is deemed acceptable as long as the intention and final direction is 
pure and beneficial to Buddhists and the Continuance of the Dhamma, 
in is conceptual use and application is its resultant.-----

My respect for a fellow learned Buddhist like yourself and others has 
always been without doubt on a different plane. I might seem slightly 
intolerant at times to persons of unsound and wavering loyalty who 
call themselves Buddhists. I value absolute respect on only one 
aspect of Buddhism and that is to the Master Lord Buddha and his 
Dhamma. We can debate with absolute freedom on any other aspect of 
Buddhism but the integrity and respect for the Master Lord Buddha and 
his Dhamma is beyond reproach. I am quite certain you have this very 
same philosophy. This is the cornerstone of Buddhism and without a 
common respect to the Teacher and his concept; we should not call 
ourselves Buddhist. To know the Buddha is to know the Dhamma and vise 
verse.

To clarify your supposition of my Buddhist belief, I am always in 
preponderance in calling myself Theravadan or Mahayanian. For the 
Lord Buddha these two do not exist. Mankind segregated Buddhism for 
his own selfish needs and requirements. The Buddha left no successor 
but for the Dhamma to rule. As the years pass a massive dilemma 
unfolds in Buddhism in regards to the Dhamma, as to what was actually 
said and what was unsaid, as you see man could not leave perfection 
alone he had to pollute what was pure.. 

The easy way out is to conform to the masses and accept one. This in 
my opinion is an unfaithful path to take. The answer lies in 
Meditation and as many have said the truth lies here. We can all find 
the truth here as it has been lying so clear for centuries, all it 
takes is to still our minds. The knowledge of centuries lies in us 
and not outside in some printed text. 

If we keep telling ourselves and contemporaries that, only the Lord 
Buddha because of his so called destined preordained path is the only 
one capable of seeing the Dhamma, we are in fact blinding our selves 
so as not to see. This aspect of human nature is prehistoric in 
concept and does not belong to the thinking analytical mind of the 
Buddhist. Many present day conformers use this excuse to cover their 
own inadequacies in meditation. They can't see so others should also 
be blind------

In the midst of this massive Dhamma confusion which has divided 
Buddhism past present and future, springs out the words of the 
Master, 
""Do not accept any concept of his without fully contemplating on 
it.""
This statement alone throws present day concepts off balance. And 
what you have quoted in your beautiful and eloquent rendition of 
Tipitaka is the resultant?

I offer an alternative to your eloquent rendition. Simply put, don't 
take any thing without contemplation (meditating) on its factual 
conformity with the very basic concept of Lord Buddha teachings and 
build your mind slowly from there. A few well-perceived thoughts are 
better than a dustbin full of garbage. Meditate Meditate Meditate

With respect always
Buddha Dhamma Sangha
Marlon McCall
Singapore
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Dear Marlon,
> 
> First I am very sorry I keep addressing you with the wrong name, it 
> must have been very irritating, thank you for having the patience 
to 
> remind my middle aged brain in such a nice manner, I really 
> appreciated it.
> 
> This post of yours seems the opposite of rude to me, your style is 
as 
> usual rather direct and hard, but the message is very polite and 
> considerate, especially after the disagreement we have had.  Thank 
you 
> again for separating the issues.
> 
> I must say our differences of opinion remain, as from my studies 
only 
> the Buddha could become self enlightened, and there could be only 
one 
> Buddha at a time, whereas the pacceka Buddha could arise in groups 
or 
> singly.  But no Buddha could arise when the sasana is still extant, 
> only when Buddhism has completely disappeared to the last word and 
> there is an intermittent period of complete ignorance could another 
> Buddha or Pacceka Buddhas become self enlightened.  All others, 
even 
> the greatest disciples, become enlightened through a Buddha's 
> teachings.  Although the Pacceka Buddhas also teach, they could 
never 
> enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a Buddha could have 
all 
> the powers to do that, according to the texts.
> 
> Most people who do not study the Tipitaka/Commentaries would think 
> that all a Buddha had to do is to meditate under some tree and all 
the 
> knowledge would pop into his mind and he would become omniscient.  
The 
> greatness and uniqueness of being a Buddha is not accumulated in a 
> short lifetime or even ten, but as I wrote in message 2926 in our 
> archives, and I paste the relevant part here:
> 
> The Buddha had accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields 
> through 4 assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he 
> was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself.  
His 
> great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, 
in         
> comparison, from the time of their individual predictions.  You 
can  
> read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for 
his    
> Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section 
of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.
> 
> (end quote)
> 
> I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes 100,000 kappa.  
> 
> Things do not happen out of the blue, even with the teachings 
> established, from which we could learn how to accumulate panna.  
One 
> no longer lives in an era where those who have accumulated great 
> panna, ready to become enlightened with a single word from the 
Buddha, 
> would arise.  Twenty-five centuries and more separate us from the 
> supreme teacher and his great disciples.  We could study or sit 
> forever and not gain enlightenment if we did not know that our 
> attachment to the concept of 'attainment' could block the path to 
> panna.  
> 
> Panna must be accumulated as such, to know things one has never 
known 
> before, to know the truth of things as they really are, nama 
> (intelligence, reality that experiences or knows, consciousness, 
the 
> difference between us and a dead person with the very same physical 
> attributes), and rupa (everything else, not only visible objects 
but 
> tangible, audible, etc, including energy, invisible gasses, and 
outer 
> space).  In short you are right to say that all we need to become 
> enlightened can be found inside us, once the Buddha had told us 
where 
> to look.  
> 
> We are all composed of nama and rupa, in fact all that exists are 
only 
> nama and rupa.  Yet we take this as a whole, us, our selves.  In 
> reality we could never have the memory of our I without the six 
senses 
> and the physical attributes, it is through the six senses that we 
> experience anything at all.  Could you think of any other way you 
> could learn anything save through these senses?  Then the feelings 
or 
> emotions one derives from these dvara (ways, sense doors) and our 
> accumulations from an eternity of past lives make us want more of 
the 
> experiences: we want to continue to see, to read more messages, to 
see 
> people we like, friends and family.  
> 
> We still want to hear more of the wind whispering on the mountain 
top, 
> the sound of recitals and bells in the distance, the voices of 
people 
> we like, if not music and such.  We travel to certain places just 
to 
> experience or re-experience desirable objects to our senses, 
according 
> to the demands of our 'selves' and memory of our experiences and 
> thoughts as accumulated in 'our' memories.  Without memory, or the 
> wrong memory since what is merely nama and rupa is taken for us, we 
> would have much less clinging.  
> 
> Right memory could be cultivated with the study of things as they 
> really are.  In the Tipitaka innumerable references are made to the 
> eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, their impermanence and 
> the reason why we should not cling to them.  Right now there is 
> seeing, and visible objects, arising from conditions to make us 
feel 
> that we see.  No matter how we look at it, it is still us who see, 
our 
> computer, our messages and reasoning.  Actually what appears right 
now 
> is just color and shapes, and the reality that sees, their 
> characteristics so different from sound and the reality that hears, 
of 
> the tactile objects at the fingertips and the experience of the 
chair 
> we sit on.  All ever changing according to conditions, none 
> controllable by anyone, you could not choose not to read this since 
it 
> is already done, according to conditions.  In all this nama and 
rupa, 
> where does the self reside, if we do not think about it?
> 
> This is the truth within ourselves that can enlighten us, but only 
> when the Buddha had rediscovered it and taught it to us.  He also 
> tells us it has to be developed, to be accumulated by studying 
> realities as they arise and appear, as much as possible at all 
times, 
> to gain knowledge of their true characteristics of the tilakhana, 
the 
> universal characteristics of all things; as impermanent, ever 
changing 
> and not the self.  The reason it takes the omniscience of a Buddha 
to 
> discover this because nama and rupa arise and fall away so fast it 
> seems permanent and lasting, our computer and desk is still there.  
> Where is the falling away?  But we know the screen is composed of 
tiny 
> dots of light and color, and even the desk is in fact particles of 
> matter, of quarks and atoms, always changing even as we sit here.  
But 
> this is only intellectual knowledge, we can only theorize according 
to 
> modern explanation.  
> 
> The Buddha on the other hand teaches us to prove his teachings 
about 
> ourselves by accumulating panna (right understanding of things as 
they 
> really are) from the development of satipatthana, studying all 
> realities that arise and appear to experience their true 
> characteristics, through all the dvara they appear through.  The 
> accumulated panna, from these tiny instants of experiences, would 
> gradually grow, until the moment it is strong enough to show us 
> realities, proving to the teachings, according to the level of 
panna.
> 
> Whether we want the knowledge or not, once panna is strong enough 
the 
> corresponding nana would arise and manifest that level of nana to 
us 
> and eliminate any uncertainty of that level of knowledge forever.  
> This is the first weak step towards the first level or 
enlightenment, 
> according to the texts.  The sixteen nana would have revealed very 
> precise knowledge of things as they really are, before we arrive at 
> the elimination of uncertainty about the teachings, and the self, 
> permanently, as the sotapanna.  There is no mistaking the nana once 
it 
> has happened, much less the sotapanna attainment, after which the 
five 
> precepts will be permanently pure, automatically.
> 
> This is why it could take many lifetimes to accumulate the 
knowledge 
> to become enlightened, even when what we need to study and know are 
> inside as well as all around us at all times.
> 
> Once again, anumodana with all those who study,
> 
> Amara

 
4723 From: Antony 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:15pm
Subject: herman pali and the weather

 
  hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should be period, 
but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days have been 
pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly cooler.

Know anything about the history of pali Herman?


--- Herman wrote:> > 
> Hi there Antony,
> 
> I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're 
> having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's 
getting 
> colder.
> 
> Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-)
> 
> 
> All the best
> 
> 
> Herman

 
4724 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:26pm
Subject: Re: herman pali and the weather

 
  Hi again,

--- Antony wrote:
> hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should be 
period, 
> but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days have been 
> pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly cooler.
> 
> Know anything about the history of pali Herman?
> 

Not a sausage, I'm afraid. 

How would you translate into Pali : "Get a mullet up ya"  :-) 

It would be a pretty cool way to sign of any post, anywhere, I'd 
reckon.


Catch ya later on


Herman
> 
> --- Herman wrote:> > 
> > Hi there Antony,
> > 
> > I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn 
we're 
> > having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's 
> getting 
> > colder.
> > 
> > Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-)
> > 
> > 
> > All the best
> > 
> > 
> > Herman

 
4725 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:31pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Hi Christine,

--- "CHRISTINE FORSYTH"  
wrote:
> Hi Antony and Herman,
> I hope Herman is right - I'm coming down from Queensland to the Blue
> Mountains in a couple of weeks for a retreat.  I'll bring the 
winter woolies
> just in case!
> Metta,
> Chris

Going to Blackheath? Winter woolies won't go astray, I'd say.


All the best

Herman


 
4726 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: best evidence

 
  Joe,

Cool! So you were movie stars as well as dhamma
pudding tasters together! A reunion after 25yrs will
be fun to watch.

hope to see that picture one day!

S.

--- Joe wrote: > Jon
 The proof is in the pudding, not in the cookbook,
> one might say. 
> 
> Hope to see you in Bangkok. I have a pretty vivid
> mental image of a 
> man's head that I associate as being you. That image
> became all the 
> more vivid recently when I came across a 1977 photo
> of that same 
> person on the set of The Deer Hunter, where that
> person was working, 
> like me, as an extra at the time. Best evidence. If
> you weren't an 
> extra on The Deer Hunter than the textual evidence
> evaporates.
> 
> Joe



 
4727 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  hi marlon et al....

i've been lurking since i got back from the states (greetings all! amara:
i'll be in touch over the weekend!), and i've been following many of the
recent threads with silent enthusiasm...marlon, i am quite intrigued by
your last statement/exhortationre:

At 09:59 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote:
> Meditate Meditate Meditate

indeed! meditate....and how are we to go about doing this?

bruce

 
4728 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Hi Herman,
Blackheath?  I think it's Medlow Bath.  But thanks for the weather warning.
I'm more worried about the trains though.  It'll be an adventure just
getting there.
metta,
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: <Herman>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.


> Hi Christine,
>
> --- "CHRISTINE FORSYTH" 
> wrote:
> > Hi Antony and Herman,
> > I hope Herman is right - I'm coming down from Queensland to the Blue
> > Mountains in a couple of weeks for a retreat.  I'll bring the
> winter woolies
> > just in case!
> > Metta,
> > Chris
>
> Going to Blackheath? Winter woolies won't go astray, I'd say.
>
>
> All the best
>
> Herman

 
4729 From: Antony 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:57pm
Subject: Re: herman pali and the weather

 
  my dear herman

did they have mullets in Buddhas time?

perhaps our friends don't know what a mullet is. I hope youare not 
reffering to the hairdo because it has a human head in it. 

I would think that our learned friends could translate 'get a' 
and 'up ya' into pali and perhaps fish would do for mullet.


anyway herman I hope you get a bit of pali into ya because it might 
help us all.

I'm interested in the Pali question because I keep reading 
conflicting things about it. Is it a written from of spoken sankrit, 
or is the the written form of maghadi which the buddha probably spoke 
and where does brahmi fit in.

--- Herman wrote:
> Hi again,
> 
> --- Antony wrote:
> > hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should be 
> period, 
> > but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days have been 
> > pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly cooler.
> > 
> > Know anything about the history of pali Herman?
> > 
> 
> Not a sausage, I'm afraid. 
> 
> How would you translate into Pali : "Get a mullet up ya"  :-) 
> 
> It would be a pretty cool way to sign of any post, anywhere, I'd 
> reckon.
> 
> 
> Catch ya later on
> 
> 
> Herman


 
4730 From: McCall 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:06pm
Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE

 
  Dear Bruce,
Nothing comes easy, even the middle path, entails effort on your 
part. Don't expect to be led by the hand. Nobody promised you a free 
ride, especially the Lord Buddha, and lastly me, wake up friend, what 
form did you taken all this lives. The path takes effort and only few 
will succeed. I hope this wakes you up fully. Good, now be serious 
with yourself and seek the knowledge. You will be proud of yourself 
when you achieve the slightest improvement to your character.  

With respect always
Buddha Dhamma Sangha
Marlon McCall
Singapore

--- bruce  wrote:
> hi marlon et al....
> 
> i've been lurking since i got back from the states (greetings all! 
amara:
> i'll be in touch over the weekend!), and i've been following many 
of the
> recent threads with silent enthusiasm...marlon, i am quite 
intrigued by
> your last statement/exhortationre:
> 
> At 09:59 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote:
> > Meditate Meditate Meditate
> 
> indeed! meditate....and how are we to go about doing this?
> 
> bruce

 
4731 From: Antony 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:23pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Hey there Amara,

Oh remember it wasn't my cat it was someone elses, I'm not a pet 
keeper type myself.

As you can see no one wants to become involved in the pali discussion.

Well my only recent adventure was meeting Sarah and Jonathon, in 
public of course, you can't trust these buddhists can you.

Oh the other adventure I found out about today was that I might be 
seconded from my current job to work somewhere else doing something 
which is way beyond my confidence in myself. That will be an 
adventure where  only stopping and looking deeply will help me.

I hope things are well with you.


--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> Hi! Antony,
> 
> Great to hear from you!!!  How's your cat, by the way, any 
adventures 
> to share with us?  He's not the one that does 'sitting meditation' 
> with you?  
> 
> Pali, pali pali pali discussion sounds interesting too!
> 
> Hope to hear from you again soon,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> > Hello meditators...
> > 
> > oops sorry, wrong list!
> > 
> > Well I've been so busy I can hardly get to a computer to log on. 
but 
> > here I am. I have been following the threads as much as I can: 
> > Vissudhimagga is online, watch out for the copyright on it, deal 
> with 
> > your akusala as best you can, develop skillful means I think the 
> > Buddha said about it didn't he. Oh yes photo's of Buddhas tooth, 
> that 
> > is pretty wild.. is there any verification that shows it might be 
> HIS 
> > tooth? And then I discover that Buddhism is tainted by Hinduism. 
> > WHAT!! Of course it is, in america it's tainted by americana, in 
> > Japan those japanese people have tainted it considerably with 
> > japanese thinking. It is the Buddhist and author Stephen 
Batchelor 
> > who has said that this is the reason buddhism has come to us in 
such 
> > a good condition, and it is the thing that will allow it to 
survive 
> > into the future. 
> > 
> > Oh yes and Pali. Whereforeart thou pali? I have come across this 
> > term "Bramhi". It is the script used, i read, on the ashokan 
> pillars. 
> > Should I take this to mean that Bramhi is the langauge or is it 
an 
> > older script for pali?
> > 
> > Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me 
signing 
> > off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a 
list 
> > called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a 
> > tatooed bikie woman. cool hey?  
> > 
> > Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion?
> > 
> > 
> > antony
> > sydney, it's getting colder, australia.
> > 


 
4732 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE

 
  hi marlon

thanks for your quick response....what you say below is all very well and
good, but general "just-do-it!" exhortations aside (i won't mention the
swipe at *my* past lives, and thanks for your concern about my
character!... :-), you didn't answer my question. i know that others on the
list would like to know more about HOW one should meditate....what do *you*
do, what do you recommend other do?...i'm always open to pointers, methods....

bruce

At 11:06 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote:
> Dear Bruce,
> Nothing comes easy, even the middle path, entails effort on your 
> part. Don't expect to be led by the hand. Nobody promised you a free 
> ride, especially the Lord Buddha, and lastly me, wake up friend, what 
> form did you taken all this lives. The path takes effort and only few 
> will succeed. I hope this wakes you up fully. Good, now be serious 
> with yourself and seek the knowledge. You will be proud of yourself 
> when you achieve the slightest improvement to your character.  
> 
> With respect always
> Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> Marlon McCall
> Singapore
> 
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > hi marlon et al....
> > 
> > i've been lurking since i got back from the states (greetings all! 
> amara:
> > i'll be in touch over the weekend!), and i've been following many 
> of the
> > recent threads with silent enthusiasm...marlon, i am quite 
> intrigued by
> > your last statement/exhortationre:
> > 
> > At 09:59 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote:
> > > Meditate Meditate Meditate
> > 
> > indeed! meditate....and how are we to go about doing this?
> > 
> > bruce

 
4733 From: McCall 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:57pm
Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE

 
  Dear Bruce 
In asking a question only the question belongs to you, the answer is 
totally mine. You cannot demand something that is not yours to 
possess. Anyway I hope I made myself clear in my last post to you. I 
guess I have to repeat myself again, but only for this very last 
time. 

I make it a point to disassociate myself from so called Buddhists 
with moronic behavioral patterns, whenever I stumble across them. 
Though this happens very seldom it still occurs, like now.

 Try using your initiative, join a Meditation group, become a monk, 
use your imagination, I certainly am not willing to assist you now or 
in future.

The swipes I took at you was designed to wake you up and bring you to 
reality. If you brought up points which I consider valid for 
discussion when addressed to me specifically you would have been 
treated totally differently. Concerning your character I am sure what 
I said would work. 

Marlon McCall



--- bruce  wrote:
> hi marlon
> 
> thanks for your quick response....what you say below is all very 
well and
> good, but general "just-do-it!" exhortations aside (i won't mention 
the
> swipe at *my* past lives, and thanks for your concern about my
> character!... :-), you didn't answer my question. i know that 
others on the
> list would like to know more about HOW one should meditate....what 
do *you*
> do, what do you recommend other do?...i'm always open to pointers, 
methods....
> 
> bruce
>

 
 
4734 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:06pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  > -----With respect to all others reading, I will omit any Pali 
> terminologies in this, and as I have in all other posts and it will 
> be in common English(American) for the benefit of all reading. For 
> the Pali literate my website http://www.buddhism.per.sg./ In this 
site 
> I have included other thesis I have written on other related aspects 
> of Buddhism and they are all available with the necessary Pali-
> perfect inclusions. This is only my personal choice of approach to 
> the whole aspect of Buddhism and should not apply to anyone 
else.----
> This is not a sermon but only my concept of Buddhism:---

Dear Marlon,

I have been asked by some of our new young members of the group who 
are having trouble learning the Pali but would like to keep up with 
the discussions to provide some translations as I write, which is why 
I juxtaposed my interpretation of the terms.  I hope you won't mind my 
continuing to do so for their benefits, and thank you in advance for 
your patience.

> -----What ever it takes to awaken the minds of present day Buddhists 
> is deemed acceptable as long as the intention and final direction is 
> pure and beneficial to Buddhists and the Continuance of the Dhamma, 
> in is conceptual use and application is its resultant.-----
> 
> My respect for a fellow learned Buddhist like yourself and others 
has 
> always been without doubt on a different plane. I might seem 
slightly 
> intolerant at times to persons of unsound and wavering loyalty who 
> call themselves Buddhists. I value absolute respect on only one 
> aspect of Buddhism and that is to the Master Lord Buddha and his 
> Dhamma. We can debate with absolute freedom on any other aspect of 
> Buddhism but the integrity and respect for the Master Lord Buddha 
and 
> his Dhamma is beyond reproach. I am quite certain you have this very 
> same philosophy. This is the cornerstone of Buddhism and without a 
> common respect to the Teacher and his concept; we should not call 
> ourselves Buddhist. To know the Buddha is to know the Dhamma and 
vise 
> verse.

I am happy to say we are in complete agreement here, and may I add 
that the more one studies the more one is able to see his boundless 
benevolence and his supremacy in all areas.  

> To clarify your supposition of my Buddhist belief, I am always in 
> preponderance in calling myself Theravadan or Mahayanian. For the 
> Lord Buddha these two do not exist. Mankind segregated Buddhism for 
> his own selfish needs and requirements. The Buddha left no successor 
> but for the Dhamma to rule. As the years pass a massive dilemma 
> unfolds in Buddhism in regards to the Dhamma, as to what was 
actually 
> said and what was unsaid, as you see man could not leave perfection 
> alone he had to pollute what was pure.. 
> 
> The easy way out is to conform to the masses and accept one. This in 
> my opinion is an unfaithful path to take. The answer lies in 
> Meditation and as many have said the truth lies here. We can all 
find 
> the truth here as it has been lying so clear for centuries, all it 
> takes is to still our minds. The knowledge of centuries lies in us 
> and not outside in some printed text. 
> 
> If we keep telling ourselves and contemporaries that, only the Lord 
> Buddha because of his so called destined preordained path is the 
only 
> one capable of seeing the Dhamma, we are in fact blinding our selves 
> so as not to see. This aspect of human nature is prehistoric in 
> concept and does not belong to the thinking analytical mind of the 
> Buddhist. Many present day conformers use this excuse to cover their 
> own inadequacies in meditation. They can't see so others should also 
> be blind------
> 
> In the midst of this massive Dhamma confusion which has divided 
> Buddhism past present and future, springs out the words of the 
> Master, 
> ""Do not accept any concept of his without fully contemplating on 
> it.""
> This statement alone throws present day concepts off balance. And 
> what you have quoted in your beautiful and eloquent rendition of 
> Tipitaka is the resultant?

I would not say that I am able to summarize the contents of the 
Tipitaka, that is very much beyond my abilities.  There is so much 
there even though the Buddha said what he taught is only the leaves he 
holds in his hands, compared to what he knew which is compared to the 
leaves in the entire forest.  There are things that he tells us are 
imponderables, that would render the normal human mind mad if one is 
obsessed by it and not just know it for panna's sake.  Then there is 
the knowledge of the kind that conditions panna to arise and grow to 
the point where it could eradicate kilesa.  

I am glad you brought up meditation, samadhi is an important part of 
his teachings, and we should know at least in theory what it is and 
how many kinds there are.  Other than the two kinds, samma and miccha 
samadhi, there are according to the texts, (I hope you will regard 
this as a revision since you must be familiar with all this already, 
but it would establish some common grounds to our discussions.):

1. Khanika samadhi, the concentration of the ekaggata cetasika on a 
certain arammana (object of the citta) that arises with each citta, to 
different degrees of steadfastness- the imperceptible kind in daily 
life even as you see the screen now, to the very high degree of the 
jhana.  Then there are the moments of nana that not only is steadfast 
in the arammana but because at moments of attainment when the nana has 
nibbanna as arammana, the nature of the arammana itself renders the 
samadhi even more steadfast and able to eliminate kilesa permanently 
according to the level of panna at the moment of attainment.

2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to the 
steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the object 
in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous 
streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the bhavanga 
(life continuum).  None of the other senses arise through any dvara, 
the concentration of the citta on the arammana would shut them all and 
the akusala they could bring out at that moment.

3. Appana samadhi, complete absorption as in the jhana citta, when the 
citta could be trained to do extraordinary things, according to the 
levels of the jhana and personal accumulations, and the purity of the 
citta is such that it could bring birth in the brahma worlds if the 
jhana arises at the moment of death, more precisely in the marana 
sanna vithi or the process of citta that performs the function of 
leaving that life.  Unless that person had also attained arahantship 
through the development to vipassana as well, the person must be 
reborn again, since only panna arising from vipassana could eradicate 
kilesa.

Which is why, although samadhi existed long before the Buddha was 
born, none of the practitioners were able to attain nibbana, even the 
great teachers of the Buddha, Utaka- and Alara-tapas, who were 
searching for the path to eradication of kilesa, were still reborn in 
the highest Brahma world of arupabrahma where they are at this minute, 
without ears or eyes to be able to learn the dhamma from the Buddha.  
He had thought of them first after his enlightenment, but they had 
passed to the brahma bhumi, according to the Tipitaka, lost for an 
eternity in time since they would still remain in that perfect bliss 
after many a Buddha have arisen and left the universe where we are.  
After which they would have to start everything over again.

But all this has reminded me how great our kilesa could be in spite of 
the attainment of the jhana that could repress kilessa for an eternity 
of time, yet not eradicate it completely.  The Buddha's cousin who was 
ordained and had heard his teachings and yet from jealousy and other 
lobha, dosa and moha accumulations was conditioned to plot against the 
Buddha's life from within our own sasana, something not even the Jains 
were able to do.  Devadata not only attained the jhana but the 
abhinna, the high jhana which was able to perform supernatural feats 
or miracles, which impressed one of the kings so much that he was 
convinced to do foul deeds under the bhikkhu's guidance.  

Obviously meditation without the panna developed to the degree where 
it is able to eradicate kilesa could not prevent us from having 
akusala citta to the point of plotting against the Buddha, even 
through the bond of blood relations.  Doesn't that put the Jains and 
Hindus and all the bad Buddhists into the proper perspective?  Of 
course after all the sufferings in the lowest hell for eternity on 
eternity, he was predicted by the Buddha to become a Pacceka Buddha 
one dayint the impossibly distant future.  So one should never be 
daunted by the thought that one might have done anything improper in 
this or any past life, which one must have, since even the Buddha did, 
as he recounted himself on occasion.  

What the Buddha taught that eradicated kilesa was vipassana which 
encompasses samadhi, although the reverse is not true.  But as this is 
getting to be a really long letter I would like to ask you to read 
about it in <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> of  which I am webmaster.  I 
have visited your website with pleasure, and would like you to take a 
look at ours and give us your opinion/advice, please.  At least please 
start by read the chapters on 'Samatha Bhavana' and 'Vipassana' in the 
'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section and tell us what 
you think.  I am confident I will have straightforward and sincere 
critique in your comments, whether for or against, something I value 
very greatly whatever you might say.

I would like to tell you also that I will be away for the day from 
tomorrow morning and will not be checking in again until perhaps the 
next evening.  I will be looking forward to your replies this evening 
or when I return, on Saturday evening.

Thank you for your great correspondence, and anumodana in your kusala 
cetana and faith in the Tiratana,

Amara


> I offer an alternative to your eloquent rendition. Simply put, don't 
> take any thing without contemplation (meditating) on its factual 
> conformity with the very basic concept of Lord Buddha teachings and 
> build your mind slowly from there. A few well-perceived thoughts are 
> better than a dustbin full of garbage. Meditate Meditate Meditate

 
4735 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: herman pali and the weather

 
  Dear Antony,
I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about
the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi
and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for
some reason I forget why., There is a very learned article by
narada thera of sri lanka that was published in the WFB about
15years back that had many refernces showing why pali(maghadi)
was the language used by the buddha. When it was written down it
was written in whatever script was commen in the area. So in sri
lanka the script was different from the one asoka used (brahmi)
but the pronunciation of the words was essentially the same.
When I go to thailand next I will visit the WFB and try to find
the article . I wrote to them a while back asking for a copy but
they said they were too busy to look. 
robert
--- Antony wrote:
> my dear herman
> 
> did they have mullets in Buddhas time?
> 
> perhaps our friends don't know what a mullet is. I hope youare
> not 
> reffering to the hairdo because it has a human head in it. 
> 
> I would think that our learned friends could translate 'get a'
> 
> and 'up ya' into pali and perhaps fish would do for mullet.
> 
> 
> anyway herman I hope you get a bit of pali into ya because it
> might 
> help us all.
> 
> I'm interested in the Pali question because I keep reading 
> conflicting things about it. Is it a written from of spoken
> sankrit, 
> or is the the written form of maghadi which the buddha
> probably spoke 
> and where does brahmi fit in.
> 



 
4736 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:19pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  > (greetings all! amara: i'll be in touch over the weekend!)

Dear Bruce, 

Looking forward very much to it!!!  By the way will be sending 
something off list, please look for it,

Amara

 
4737 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:34pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  > Oh remember it wasn't my cat it was someone elses, I'm not a pet 
> keeper type myself.

Dear Antony, 

Sorry!  I just remember it was a nice story, in the midst of peta, 
metta and brahma vihara- maybe we should add that series to the 
website's Q&A!  What do you think?

> As you can see no one wants to become involved in the pali 
discussion.
> 
> Well my only recent adventure was meeting Sarah and Jonathon, in 
> public of course, you can't trust these buddhists can you.
> 
> Oh the other adventure I found out about today was that I might be 
> seconded from my current job to work somewhere else doing something 
> which is way beyond my confidence in myself. That will be an 
> adventure where  only stopping and looking deeply will help me.
> 
> I hope things are well with you.

Sounds great!  Bravery and cheefulness to you in the dhamma as in 
'conventional' life!!!  (Can you really 'stop' anything?  Only panna 
can, in the end!)  I'm having another busy month, but then where can 
you go (or stay!) where the six senses don't keep you really busy?  

Do keep us posted on your adventures,

Amara

 
4738 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Dear Christine,

I hope it's not another memory lapse of mine to think you are a 
new member of our group, even though you already know a number of us, 
and to welcome you to the group!  I hope you find it enjoyable as well 
as useful,

A fellow subscriber,

Amara

 
4739 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  Dear Herman,
I hope you don't mind that I join in the conversation with Jon.
One point about your quotation from the Abhidhammattha-sangaha
You realise that that entire quotation came NOT from the actual
Abhidhammattha-sangaha but from Venerable Narada , a sri lankan
monk who translated the book, and died a few years back. It is
his ideas not those of the Anuruddha thera.
 
You write that "I believe this free will and choice is available
at mind level
> as 
> well. This is what it says in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha
> CHAPTER III -
>  Miscellaneous Section" and you cite The venerable Narada 
"This javana stage is the most important from a ethical
> standpoint. 
> It is at this psychological stage that good or evil is
> actually done. 
> Irrespective of the desirability or the undesirability of the
> object 
> presented to the mind, one can make the Javana process good or
> bad. ""

I wonder if there are other ways to look at this. The javana
process is going very fast - it has gone before we can really
decide to make it good or bad. I think that only by conditions
good or bad arises. Not us who can choose.


I have been intending to write more about the six sense doors as
I think if anyone can learn to study, say, seeing and colour
that any doubts they have about why we stress awareness at any
time will naturally go. If one learns to develop awareness even
when one is tired or worried or just walking to the shop then
the way different objects are uncontrollable become gradually
more apparent, I think. 
Anyway sarah wrote that basics are basics and anatta should be
stressed - and I can't argue there.
 So here we go. Those who have heard it all before won't want to
be subjected to another robert harangue so push 'delete' now.

You said you felt discouraged to learn that awareness can't be
directed .
I don't think you need to feel discouraged. The texts mention
that simply throwing out the dregs of a cup in the hope that it
might benefit the minute creatures in a pond will result in
riches in thousands of lives in the future. The development of
panna (wisdom) at whatever level is kusala of much higher merit.
And understanding of anatta only occurs during a buddha sasana.
If we learn that control and free will is an illusion that will
bring great good fortune and it also should lead towards
correct, direct understanding of the dhammas at the 6 doors; and
that, so I believe, leads out of samasara altogether. I used to
plan and hope for big results in this life, but that was all
self. Just learning about conditions in theory and a little
directly is satisfying enough now; even this brings directly
visible benefits in that the obsession of self is reduced and so
life is lived more in accord with the way things are rather than
ideals we have of how things should be


In some ways it seems we can direct awareness. If I think about
seeing now  that tends to condition an investigation of seeing
or visible object. Or when we were talking much about dosa on
the list recently: hearing about how dosa can be an object for
sati may condition a degree of study of dosa when it arises. 

It is good to know about the different levels of awareness,
though, as  we might overestimate just how much awreness there
was. It is all changing so fast. When there is some study of the
characteristic of dosa this is mostly in a vague way - seeing it
directly a little but much of it is still thinking about it.
What I call thinking in the present moment. This level shouldn't
be scorned as it has to be like this - as far as I can see- we
can't jump to direct, deep experience where nama is separated
from rupa. 

At this level, when one is still thinking and studying in the
present moment, I think one tends to still favour certain
objects and so for some people sound becomes a little clearer,
for others seeing, for others feeling.  Colour is clearer than
seeing for me but for others it may be different. There  needs
to be investigation of many dhammas, though, and the reason
there is/seems to be some degree of "choice" is due to
deeprooted self view.
 And so while there is study of dosa there shouldn't be neglect
of the visible object or sound or feeling that is also arising
quickly in between moments of dosa. However, if we just try to
"let go" and be aware of whatever dhamma arises this too can be
a type of attachment where one is trying to run after different
dhammas - it doesn't work. 

Also if there aren't enough conditions for awreness it can't
arise. I think this is crucial to accept otherwise we might be
manufacturing some sort of distorted vision that we think is
awareness. Or we might feel dejected if awreness doesn't arise
often. Sati is simply a conditioned phenomena and seeeing that
should lessen attachment to it. If it doesn't arise much that is
because there are not so many conditions for it. The reason
lobha is so dominant in our lives is because there are strong
conditions for that particular dhamma- but by studying it we
learn a little more each time; it is an object for satipatthana,
and it is awreness that investigates lobha.

Always it is a balance - we can go to other extremes and not
even consider or study dhammas at all- thinking that it will all
just somehow happen if we listen and read Dhamma books. 


Studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way different
objects present themselves should weaken the idea of control.
Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it
seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or
sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions
that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast.

In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph
564 it says “In respect of the classification of the
Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place
in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to
supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one
consciousness and with others feeling etc.” 
As the quote
from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati
takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We
will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to
certain objects does not lead to detachment from the
idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just
a cetasika, itself conditioned by various factors, and so
ephemeral.

 If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know
that each moment is conditioned by  different
conditions and that not even one of those conditions
is controllable even for an instant
The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the
DhatuKathu (PTS)
xxvii writes  about this: “Because the
functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of
continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise:
1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a
deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has
to be taken while the deed is being performed to its
completion  and this leads to the subsequent ideas
3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four
imaginary characteristic functions of being have
bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.
But the elements have not the time or span of duration
to carry out such functions” .

This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world
appears to me. And the world can only be understood by
dissecting the whole into its component parts. We can't come to
profound understanding if we think about concepts - then it
still seems that "I" can choose this or that. 
Thus while I can write about, say, 'giving special attention to
dosa' (especially if it is prolonged and if one habitually
avoids awareness of it), it depends on understanding, mine and
the listener, as to what is meant. One person takes it to mean
that one can choose at the deepest level to have sati just by
attention and effort(ie a level of wrong view). Another knows
that only at the conventional level is there any choice.
Fundamentally there can be none because there is no self. 
This helps one to read the pali texts including the Dhammapada
in a clearer way also. 
One may think dosa should be the object when one is upset - but
feeling may instead present itself to awareness; Or the nature
of seeing could be clearer: how painful feeling or dosa is not
present at the actual moments of seeing. I find it is all very
interesting and thus only discouraging if one is set on goals
and ideals. 
robert






 
4740 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE

 
  well!  thank you marlon!

bruce


At 11:57 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote:
> Dear Bruce 
> In asking a question only the question belongs to you, the answer is 
> totally mine. You cannot demand something that is not yours to 
> possess. Anyway I hope I made myself clear in my last post to you. I 
> guess I have to repeat myself again, but only for this very last 
> time. 
> 
> I make it a point to disassociate myself from so called Buddhists 
> with moronic behavioral patterns, whenever I stumble across them. 
> Though this happens very seldom it still occurs, like now.
> 
>  Try using your initiative, join a Meditation group, become a monk, 
> use your imagination, I certainly am not willing to assist you now or 
> in future.
> 
> The swipes I took at you was designed to wake you up and bring you to 
> reality. If you brought up points which I consider valid for 
> discussion when addressed to me specifically you would have been 
> treated totally differently. Concerning your character I am sure what 
> I said would work. 
> 
> Marlon McCall
> 
> 
> 
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > hi marlon
> > 
> > thanks for your quick response....what you say below is all very 
> well and
> > good, but general "just-do-it!" exhortations aside (i won't mention 
> the
> > swipe at *my* past lives, and thanks for your concern about my
> > character!... :-), you didn't answer my question. i know that 
> others on the
> > list would like to know more about HOW one should meditate....what 
> do *you*
> > do, what do you recommend other do?...i'm always open to pointers, 
> methods....
> > 
> > bruce
> > 


 
4741 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:09pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] pitaka gurudom

 
  Dear Joe,

Thanks for this well written post.  I would like to make a
contribution to it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe [mailto:Joe]
>
> At essence is the question "Can we say that the
> pitakas are 100%
> infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and
> forgive me if I
> misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only
> insofar as we verify
> their contents through our own experience," and
> your response,
> Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much
> room for individual
> interpretation of Buddhadharma.

I think that Buddha dhamma is ultimately sacca dhamma: it is
provable to our own experiences, if we have the necessary
tool (panna) to discern the truth.  I also think of the
dhamma as both profound and subtle and the subtleties are
truly hard to discern.  Would we have known that kilesa,
akusala dhamma, constantly arises in our daily life has it
not been for the Buddha's teachings?  I wouldn't.  On the
same token, if we are set on the view that because "I"
experience this, therefore this must be right.  Or because
the venerable Ajahn said this, this must be true.  Taking
this apprach, I think we are more likely to fall into the
trap of subtle and not-so-subtle lobha about wrong practices
and what the path is.

It is important to stick to the text from the standpoint
that as it is the most comprehensive record of the Buddha's
teachings, it is most likely to be correct on many, if not
all, of the subtleties.  Although it is true that each
individual comprehends the teachings according to his
accumulation, but this is true to any methods of teachings
regardless if it is oral, written, or practice traditions.
I am sure Robert and Jon comprehends dhamma differently from
each other.  I am also sure that Mahasi Sayadaw's students
comprehend differently of what sacca dhamma is.

> How, in fact, do
> you know whether the
> teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are
> valid? In answering this
> question can you logically use the texts to
> justify the texts? If
> not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there
> be an independent
> judge of the fruits of your practice?

The texts are valid because they are ultimately provable.
However, at the level except maybe at the most subtle level,
the texts are also self-referenced: they reinforces one
another.  The question then becomes, do we understand the
teachings (not knowing all the quotes and verses) that can
be verified in the texts beyond the point of saying that the
texts cannot provide answers to our doubts and questions?  I
think the differences in opinion about what the four noble
truths, particularly the path which maybe is the most
important and most fundamental knowledge, clearly indicates
that this is not so.

> It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for
> some Buddhists,
> even where the latter insist they do not follow
> gurus. I'm not
> suggesting that this is your personal stance,
> Jon, but it's one that
> bubbles up from time to time on this discussion list.

The buddha is clearly our guru, and the tipitaka is the
closest to his teachings of all the available sources.

>
> There are Christians and Muslims who similarly
> claim to derive all of
> their faith directly from reading the Bible or
> the Koran. Many have
> formed their own fundamentalist sects, each
> claiming to offer the
> correct interpretation of the Book. Their
> interpretations often
> differ, even contradict one another. Yet each
> says, very much as I
> sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever
> you want about the
> way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you
> don't understand it
> the way we do, then you're not really following
> the Bible/Koran,
> you're not really following Jesus
> Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.'

This is naturally to be expected.  Wouldn't it surprise you
that this is not so?  I think one of the methods that we can
go about determining whether what we understand may have a
chance of being valid is to reference it against the
tipitakas.  (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great
References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]).   Therefore, in picking
a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most
consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using
the texts as references rather than one that consistently
injects what they believe in.  As long as one is not an
ariya, one still has micha-ditthi.  Wouldn't you be
uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you
may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well?

> Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the
> exact same Pali canon,
> e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> come up with two
> rather different interpretations.

I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali
cannon.  Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka,
the whole tipitaka, more than the other?  I would argue so.
Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except
for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect
things sometimes or another.  How do you know what they
teach is correct?  At the basic and fundamental level, I
think I would reference tipitaka.  Eventually, this is
obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to
have the right tool.

> intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> tactical conundrum
> for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> argue that the
> Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> have the only
> correct interpretation of it.

There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the
Buddha spoke of.  My life's most worthwhile task is to find
what the truth is.  I think I am more likely to find it,
depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for
the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own
views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi
in countless life.

> If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute
> truth or set of truths,
> one might be forgiven for thinking that these
> truths might be self-
> evident.

These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right
tool (panna) to discern it.


> If the truths only exist insofar as they
> can be understood
> through a text or set of texts, then one might
> argue this is a sort
> of referential truth, a truth or set of truths
> that depend on
> language and on a consensual understanding of language --
> a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> Chomsky. A logical
> loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.

The words we hear and read are referential, but are
referential to the truths rather than referential to
something that is untruth.  Again, it depends on one
accumulations whether this referential truth conditions the
arising of the different levels of panna to allow seeing of
the truth for ourself at a finer and more subtle levels.

>
> On the other hand one might be tempted to think
> that Buddhadharma
> goes beyond language and referential truths. Is
> the Tripitaka in fact
> a sort of code that one must spend one's entire
> life or perhaps
> innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> cracking the code, one
> tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message?
> Or is the language
> a reflection or a trace of something else that
> might be accessed in
> other ways?

If one understands the truth without being taught, then one
can become self-enlightened.  This is the accumulation of
sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only.  There is only one
truth, how do you find it?  The (right and wrong) answers
depends on one's accumulations.

I obviously think (doesn't everyone?) that I am right.
However, I fully accept that I may be completely
off-tracked, again, depending on my accumulations.

kom

 
4742 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:21pm
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 

  Dear Robert,

   What a wonderful post you have here!  Thank you very very much for 
your compassionate guidance.

> Studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way different
> objects present themselves should weaken the idea of control.

   And from understanding that things are uncontrollable, anatta is 
understood.

> Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it
> seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or
> sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions
> that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast.

   How true!

> In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph
> 564 it says "In respect of the classification of the
> Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place
> in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to
> supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one
> consciousness and with others feeling etc." 
> As the quote
> from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati
> takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We
> will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to
> certain objects does not lead to detachment from the
> idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just
> a cetasika, itself conditioned by various factors, and so
> ephemeral.
> 
>  If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know
> that each moment is conditioned by  different
> conditions and that not even one of those conditions
> is controllable even for an instant
> The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the
> DhatuKathu (PTS)
> xxvii writes  about this: "Because the
> functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of
> continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise:
> 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a
> deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has
> to be taken while the deed is being performed to its
> completion  and this leads to the subsequent ideas
> 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four
> imaginary characteristic functions of being have
> bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.
> But the elements have not the time or span of duration
> to carry out such functions" .
> 
> This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world
> appears to me. And the world can only be understood by
> dissecting the whole into its component parts. We can't come to
> profound understanding if we think about concepts - then it
> still seems that "I" can choose this or that. 
> Thus while I can write about, say, 'giving special attention to
> dosa' (especially if it is prolonged and if one habitually
> avoids awareness of it), it depends on understanding, mine and
> the listener, as to what is meant. One person takes it to mean
> that one can choose at the deepest level to have sati just by
> attention and effort(ie a level of wrong view). Another knows
> that only at the conventional level is there any choice.
> Fundamentally there can be none because there is no self. 
> This helps one to read the pali texts including the Dhammapada
> in a clearer way also. 
> One may think dosa should be the object when one is upset - but
> feeling may instead present itself to awareness; Or the nature
> of seeing could be clearer: how painful feeling or dosa is not
> present at the actual moments of seeing. I find it is all very
> interesting and thus only discouraging if one is set on goals
> and ideals. 
> robert

Thank you,
Alex

 
4743 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:26pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:Sign-offs (Erik)

 
  Hi Erik,

> -----Original Message-----
> (Got any ideas for better Pali sign-offs other
> than anumodhana? :)
> Erik

If one is not careful, sign-offs, even one externally
kusala, may be a result of akusala (conceit, maya, etc.).
Better say what you mean (with good intention) rather than
following a potentially conceited practice.  The disclaimer
here is of course, I am not implying that you are such and
such person!

How about: May the dhamma be with you?  It is sort of
catchy, not very original (from both contents and
structures!), but requires perhaps weaker level of metta and
panna to say this truthfully!  Saying Anumoddhana implies
one has to be able to discern whether or not the other
person is doing something kusala; this is definitely harder
to figure out.

kom <- a sign-off that potentially conditions the view of
self and ownership.

 
4744 From: Num 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Hi,

Well, just one brief question or comment.  I will be pretty busy the rest of 
the month.

<<<<<3) I have heard a story that the Buddha mentioned that once
becoming a sotapanna, one cannot be born lower than a human
janitor / garbage collector. >>>>>>>

Just curious, what's the problem of being a janitor or gabage disposer. I 
think it's an honest work and way living as well.   I don't think the Buddha 
supported the cast system nor discrimated people by their birth, thier origin 
or thier work.  But sometimes when I read Tipitaka, I feel like there are 
some degree of categorization or compartmentalization people.  I do agree 
with samma-ajiva way of life.  

Have to go.

Num



 
4745 From: McCall 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 0:58am
Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  Dear Amara,
Thank you for introducing your Web site. It is one of the most 
Beautiful sites dedicated to Buddhism I have ever seen. Your content 
and graphics are exemplary in all manner and form. You should be very 
proud of your effort and I truly commend you and anyone connected 
with its construction and maintenance. It is a tribute to the Master 
Lord Buddha. 

As for reading chapters on 'Samatha Bhavana' and 'Vipassana' it is 
superbly written. I commend you on its articulate detailed structure. 

I am a practical person, so to me everything must have a reason for 
being there. What is the intent of highlighting every expected flow 
of Vipassana if it hinders the meditator. We are here to help 
meditators progress in meditation. Amara it is very nicely laid out 
but I assure you this is the problem. When you have pupils under you 
who are starting on Vipassana and you lay out all the expected 
sequence of progress, it stays in the mind and expectations will 
cause no improvement in Meditation. Pupils tend to try and memorise 
and imagine progress when progress is not present. This is counter 
productive. Since you are Thai, emphise the great old Thai Masters 
like Ajahn Sao's approach it is the best for this state humanity is 
in. No questions asked just Buddho. I have yet to find a meditation 
master that will follow the written text and try to implement it as a 
guide to progress.

The more we put in our mind the more difficult it is to remove during 
meditation.

It is either you are a master of words in meditation or you are a 
master in Meditation, never both. Which are you my friend Amara, I am 
neither my friend

With utmost respect
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall
Singapore.

Ps: As for Meditation I practice vipassana, My meditation Master is 
known in India as Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar, Mahaparinibbana 
Main  Temple, Kusinara,UP,India.

 
4746 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear Num,

--- Num wrote:
> Just curious, what's the problem of being a janitor or gabage
> disposer. I 
> think it's an honest work and way living as well.   I don't think the
> Buddha 
> supported the cast system nor discrimated people by their birth,
> thier origin 
> or thier work.  But sometimes when I read Tipitaka, I feel like there
> are 
> some degree of categorization or compartmentalization people.  I do
> agree 
> with samma-ajiva way of life.  

There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint.  From vipaka,
which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a
result of higher kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha obviously
did not support caste system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize
people in that manner.   Would you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna
janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
king?

I think the text reflects the traditions/customs of the time and it is
sometimes hard to separate what the Buddha teaches and the customs.  On
the other hand, if you think of Paramatha characteristics and
associated properties, you may find things more palatable.  For
example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes people into:
1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad people (I am translating
badly from Thai )
2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people
3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad people
4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people.

Obviously, this doesn't depict the caste system.  Furthermore, if you
think of paramatha characteristics (especially panna), it makes perfect
sense.  

kom



 
4747 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Kom,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Would you rather be a
> poor/depraved sotapanna
> janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but
> with Micha-dithi,
> king?

(Did you really mean 'depraved' here, or 'deprived'?)

> For
> example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes
> people into:
> 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad
> people (I am translating
> badly from Thai )
> 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people
> 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad
> people
> 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people.

This is interesting--can you cite the source?

Thanks...

mike


 
4748 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 2:00am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  > Thank you for introducing your Web site. It is one of the most 
> Beautiful sites dedicated to Buddhism I have ever seen. Your content 
> and graphics are exemplary in all manner and form. You should be 
very 
> proud of your effort and I truly commend you and anyone connected 
> with its construction and maintenance. It is a tribute to the Master 
> Lord Buddha. 

Dear Marlon, 

Thank you very much for your commendation, I am very glad that you 
found our efforts worthy of representing Buddhism.

> As for reading chapters on 'Samatha Bhavana' and 'Vipassana' it is 
> superbly written. I commend you on its articulate detailed 
structure. 
> 
> I am a practical person, so to me everything must have a reason for 
> being there. What is the intent of highlighting every expected flow 
> of Vipassana if it hinders the meditator. We are here to help 
> meditators progress in meditation. Amara it is very nicely laid out 
> but I assure you this is the problem. When you have pupils under you 
> who are starting on Vipassana and you lay out all the expected 
> sequence of progress, it stays in the mind and expectations will 
> cause no improvement in Meditation. Pupils tend to try and memorise 
> and imagine progress when progress is not present. This is counter 
> productive. Since you are Thai, emphise the great old Thai Masters 
> like Ajahn Sao's approach it is the best for this state humanity is 
> in. No questions asked just Buddho. I have yet to find a meditation 
> master that will follow the written text and try to implement it as 
a 
> guide to progress.

Don't you think that the Buddha and the ancient masters who wrote the 
Tipitaka/Commentaries from which all the information was taken would 
know better than we do what to teach people?  Because that is what we 
try to do, present what we found in the Tipitaka to whomever is 
interested in a language they could comprehend, with as little 
distortion as we could manage.  

> The more we put in our mind the more difficult it is to remove 
during 
> meditation.

It is true that at the actual moment of study of realities all 
theoretical knowledge should be set aside as thoughts would interfere 
with the direct experience of realities, but at least the basics 
knowledge must be intellectually introduced so people could understand 
what panna is and how to acquire it, and to what purpose, I think.  In 
order to understand this there are several factors at play, first and 
foremost being the accumulations of the person, I think.  As the 
Buddha taught, some people could understand from just a few words 
while others would need much explanation, comparisons and contrasts to 
understand something.  The problem is that only the Buddha could 
really tell the exact dosage of information needed for maximum effect, 
therefore we have decided to present as much as we could and hope that 
the student will find their individual saturation point somewhere.  

> It is either you are a master of words in meditation or you are a 
> master in Meditation, never both. Which are you my friend Amara, I 
am 
> neither my friend

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but thank you for what 
I take as a very kind compliment, whether I truly deserve it or not, 
from another dedicated Buddhist and a friend.  

> Ps: As for Meditation I practice vipassana, My meditation Master is 
> known in India as Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar, Mahaparinibbana 
> Main  Temple, Kusinara,UP,India.

Thank you for this as well.  Our group is going to visit India in  
October, perhaps we may offer him some books in English?  We would be 
very happy to have the opportunity to accumulate merits, and thank you 
in advance. 

I was very glad to have caught your post just as I was signing off, 
and look forward to further discussions soon, anumodana in all your 
kusala cetana,

Amara

 
 
4749 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 4/19/01 1:28:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Num,
> 
> --- Num wrote:
> > Just curious, what's the problem of being a janitor or gabage
> > disposer. I 
> > think it's an honest work and way living as well.   I don't think the
> > Buddha 
> > supported the cast system nor discrimated people by their birth,
> > thier origin 
> > or thier work.  But sometimes when I read Tipitaka, I feel like there
> > are 
> > some degree of categorization or compartmentalization people.  I do
> > agree 
> > with samma-ajiva way of life.  
> 
> There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint.  From vipaka,
> which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a
> result of higher kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha obviously
> did not supp?rt caste system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize
> people in that manner.   Would you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna
> janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
> king?
> 
> I think the text reflects the traditions/customs of the time and it is
> sometimes hard to separate what the Buddha teaches and the customs.  On
> the other hand, if you think of Paramatha characteristics and
> associated properties, you may find things more palatable.  For
> example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes people into:
> 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad people (I am translating
> badly from Thai )
> 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people
> 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad people
> 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people.
> 
> Obviously, this doesn't depict the caste system.  Furthermore, if you
> think of paramatha characteristics (especially panna), it makes perfect
> sense.  
> 
> kom
> 
===============================
       I would like to make a couple comments with regard to your statement: 
"There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint.  From vipaka, which 
is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of higher 
kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha obviously did not support caste 
system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that manner. Would 
you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual 
belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
king?". 
       I specifically would like to make two points which I think are in 
agreement with your statement: (1) Being born a prince might be less 
favorable from a Dhammic standpoint, because a prince might be far more 
involved with worldly pleasures and with worldly responsibilities than a 
janitor who might have more time and inclination to practice the Dhamma, and 
(2) Not all conditions are kammic consequences; a person might, to paint an 
extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, who because of greedy 
investments lose all their wealth, and then, in order to recoup their status, 
commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child then being homeless and without 
guidance is an innocent victim of his parents' greed, but eventually, due to 
*favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a position as janitor. My point here is 
that events occur due to causes, but not necessarily due to one's volitional 
actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, the web of kamma is far too 
complex for us to infer that a particular status is the result of "good" or 
"bad" kamma.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4750 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Kom,
> 
> --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> > Would you rather be a
> > poor/depraved sotapanna
> > janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but
> > with Micha-dithi,
> > king?
> 
> (Did you really mean 'depraved' here, or 'deprived'?)
Must have meant deprived!!

> > 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad
> > people (I am translating
> > badly from Thai )
> > 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people
> > 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad
> > people
> > 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people.
> 

OK.  I don't remember reading the English version of this (otherwise,
the translation might have been better).  This will require some
searching...

kom


 
4751 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 4:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Dear Num

You will be promptly informed about the 'capolavoro', do not fear! ;-)
Thanks for the kindness much appreciated.
Good to hear from you too; you are always heartening, thanks.

Love and respect
Cybele

>
>Hi Sarah and Cybele,
>
>Just a short mail.  Can you guys put me on the list of persons to notify 
>when
>the book come out?   Should be a fun reading :).  Sound like it should be a
>good book for bookclub.
>
>Good to hear and see you back in action, Cybele.
>
>Num
>


 
4752 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 4:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Dear Antony


>>Hello meditators...
>
>oops sorry, wrong list!

Well Antony I am a dynamic meditator but I don't reject the formal tradition 
at all. Still in the right list!


>Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing
>off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list
>called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a
>tatooed bikie woman. cool hey?

Dear Antony believe me or not I have got sixteen tattoos all over my body 
'made in Chiangmai, Thailand' and not at all regretted.
Most probably, my karmic mess allowing I will be in Sidney in June/July to 
meet another Antony, buddhist and Australian friend of mine from another 
buddhist list therefore if you will be there and not too busy we can link 
up.

>>antony
>sydney, it's getting colder, australia.

don't complain, I am in London and it's snowing, brrrr.....

love and respect

cybele



 
4753 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 4:49am
Subject: Why "Pali"

 
  > I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about
> the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi
> and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for
> some reason I forget why.

"Pali language" means "text language". (This is in the introduction to 
Nyanamoli's Visudhi magga, I believe.)

 
4754 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  Dear Amara,
Thank you for your welcome.  Not your memory lapse, but mine. I am
relatively new to this list (a few weeks), and should have introduced myself
earlier - my apologies..  A few details - I am a mature-age woman living on
10 acres south of Brisbane, Queensland.  I work as a Social Worker at the
local hospital. I have been attending a weekly group which practices
Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw, but who have been
without a teacher for nearly a year. (Not quite 'the blind leading the
blind', but difficult at times.)
I have found this list to be of great assistance, inspiration and support.
metta,
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Amara 
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.
>
> Dear Christine,
>
> I hope it's not another memory lapse of mine to think you are a
> new member of our group, even though you already know a number of us,
> and to welcome you to the group!  I hope you find it enjoyable as well
> as useful,
>
> A fellow subscriber,
>
> Amara


 
4755 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 6:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism

 
  Dear Howard,

I would like to expand what you say a little bit further to see whether
or not we agree.

--- Howard wrote:
> "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint.  From
> vipaka, which 
> is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of
> higher 
> kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha obviously did not support
> caste 
> system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that
> manner. Would 
> you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich,
> full-of-sensual 
> belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
> king?". 
>        I specifically would like to make two points which I think are
> in 
> agreement with your statement: 
> (2) Not all conditions are kammic consequences; a person might, to
> paint an 
> extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, who because of greedy 
> investments lose all their wealth, and then, in order to recoup their
> status, 
> commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child then being homeless and
> without 
> guidance is an innocent victim of his parents' greed, but eventually,
> due to 
> *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a position as janitor. My point
> here is 
> that events occur due to causes, but not necessarily due to one's
> volitional 
> actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, the web of kamma is far
> too 
> complex for us to infer that a particular status is the result of
> "good" or 
> "bad" kamma.

You are, of course, right on this at the very minute details.  When we
conventionally say something is a result of a kamma, it usually means a
whole load of stuffs---more than just a single moment of citta.  This
conventional saying is valid up to a certain point, as Kamma
contributes so heavily in what we see, hear, smell, taste, and touch.  

At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can safely say that each vipaka
citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has
previously-arisen (could be a long long time ago) cetana(s???) as
Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many pacayas.   Since there
are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting from bad kamma, and vipaka
resulting from good kamma, then either bad kamma or good kamma has to
be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya.

Categorizing what we experience to be good vipaka or bad vipaka can be
very hard.  Unless one can differetiate the vipaka arising to
experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes virtually impossible to
identify that something we experience is a result of bad or good kamma.
 But what we experience through the 5 senses are results of kamma
(except the appropriate cittas including panca-dvara-vajana, votappana,
javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless.

As for your example, I can still contribute many of the experiences as
results of kamma.  Being born (patisandhi) citta in a birth plane, in
the situation where either bad or good vipaka is tipped to give more
results than the other, is definitely a result of kamma (patisandhi is
also vipaka).  The minute vipaka moments that the child suffer as a
result of having no parents are also results of kamma; the parents have
their own kamma.  We may be born by the result of a very high level of
kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be constantly troubled by the
results of other akusala.  

kom




 
4756 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 6:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  --- Alex T wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> 
>   Dear Robert,
> 
>    > 
> > Studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way
> different
> > objects present themselves should weaken the idea of
> control.
> 
>    And from understanding that things are uncontrollable,
> anatta is 
> understood.

Thank you alex. just to be pedantic (and I know you know this
already). Seeing that objects change so rapidly and are
uncontrollable does demonstrate anatta. However, this is not the
same as the advanced stages of vipassana where the dhammas are
directly  seen as anatta - that can only come after the stage of
seperating nama from rupa.
robert


> 
> > Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is
> it
> > seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or
> > sound that just arose? It is all happening because of
> conditions
> > that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very
> fast.
> 
>    How true!
> 


 
4757 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:49am
Subject: Kamma (to Kom) [ Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism]

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 4/19/01 6:07:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> I would like to expand what you say a little bit further to see whether
> or not we agree.
> 
> --- Howard wrote:
> > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint.  From
> > vipaka, which 
> > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of
> > higher 
> > kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha obviously did not support
> > caste 
> > system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that
> > manner. Would 
> > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich,
> > full-of-sensual 
> > belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
> > king?". 
> >        I specifically would like to make two points which I think are
> > in 
> > agreement with your statement: 
> > (2) Not all conditions are kammic consequences; a person might, to
> > paint an 
> > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, who because of greedy 
> > investments lose all their wealth, and then, in order to recoup their
> > status, 
> > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child then being homeless and
> > without 
> > guidance is an innocent victim of his parents' greed, but eventually,
> > due to 
> > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a position as janitor. My point
> > here is 
> > that events occur due to causes, but not necessarily due to one's
> > volitional 
> > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, the web of kamma is far
> > too 
> > complex for us to infer that a particular status is the result of
> > "good" or 
> > "bad" kamma.
> 
> You are, of course, right on this at the very minute details.  When we
> conventionally say something is a result of a kamma, it usually means a
> whole load of stuffs---more than just a single moment of citta.  This
> conventional saying is valid up to a certain point, as Kamma
> contributes so heavily in what we see, hear, smell, taste, and touch.  
> 
> At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can safely say that each vipaka
> citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has
> previously-arisen (could be a long long time ago) cetana(s???) as
> Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many pacayas.   Since there
> are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting from bad kamma, and vipaka
> resulting from good kamma, then either bad kamma or good kamma has to
> be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya.
> 
> Categorizing what we experience to be good vipaka or bad vipaka can be
> very hard.  Unless one can differetiate the vipaka arising to
> experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes virtually impossible to
> identify that something we experience is a result of bad or good kamma.
> But what we experience through the 5 senses are results of kamma
> (except the appropriate cittas including panca-dvara-vajana, votappana,
> javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless.
> 
> As for your example, I can still contribute many of the experiences as
> results of kamma.  Being born (patisandhi) citta in a birth plane, in
> the situation where either bad or good vipaka is tipped to give more
> results than the other, is definitely a result of kamma (patisandhi is
> also vipaka).  The minute vipaka moments that the child suffer as a
> result of having no parents are also results of kamma; the parents have
> their own kamma.  We may be born by the result of a very high level of
> kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be constantly troubled by the
> results of other akusala.  
> 
> kom
> 
================================
       I'm really not sure how much we are in agreement here or not. Your 
earlier comments in the post are technically beyond me. As far as your last 
two paragraphs are concerned, while they are not technically beyond me, I'm 
still not too clear on whether you are saying that all experience is the 
result of kamma or merely that one's kamma frequently is a factor. If the 
former, then we are in disagreement for two reasons: (1) In the suttas, the 
Buddha explicitly denied that claim, and (2) The notion that all experience 
is the result of kamma vitiates the very idea of kamma; if person B does what 
he does to person A because A's kamma requires it, then B had no choice, and 
should not incur a kammic debt himself. In fact, volition goes right out the 
window if all events are kamma vipaka. My point here is that kamma being all 
powerful is self-contradictory. But perhaps you do not mean that all 
experience is the result of kamma.
       There are, of course, two significant ways in which kamma does 
*generally* condition one's experience: (1) The realm and context into which 
one is born is kammically determined, and (2) What one tends to notice is 
conditioned in part by one's interest, and what interests one is kammically 
determined. But not *all* things that happen to one are the result of one's 
own kamma.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4758 From: Alex T 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:56am
Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  Dear Robert,

   Do you know that you just gave me a good dose of lobha?  It seems 
we are studying vipassana with patience waiting for panna to be 
developed, aren't we?  Well, may I ask a very ... stupid question:  
How long shall I reach the advanced stages?

   Just teasing!  I know that I have to be patient, like the one with 
a deformed foot praying to God constantly for a good one (in the 
novel Of Human Bondage (?)).  He might have to wait for a long time 
before God gave him any answer.

   Thank you for the information.

With Appreciation,
Alex

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> 
> However, this is not the
> same as the advanced stages of vipassana where the dhammas are
> directly  seen as anatta - that can only come after the stage of
> seperating nama from rupa.
> robert

 
4759 From: Alex T 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 10:03am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism--Kom

 
  --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
Dear Kom,

   You are wonderful.  Anumodana to your skill of explanation, and 
your spirit of sharing with us.

   Thank you, Kom.  I've been reading your posts with joy. 

Anumodana,
Alex
=====================
> There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint.  From 
vipaka,
> which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a
> result of higher kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha 
obviously
> did not support caste system---there is no dhamma reason to 
categorize
> people in that manner.   Would you rather be a poor/depraved 
sotapanna
> janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
> king?
> 
> I think the text reflects the traditions/customs of the time and it 
is
> sometimes hard to separate what the Buddha teaches and the 
customs.  On
> the other hand, if you think of Paramatha characteristics and
> associated properties, you may find things more palatable.  For
> example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes people into:
> 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad people (I am 
translating
> badly from Thai )
> 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people
> 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad people
> 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people.
> 
> Obviously, this doesn't depict the caste system.  Furthermore, if 
you
> think of paramatha characteristics (especially panna), it makes 
perfect
> sense.  
> 
> kom
> 

 
4760 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 0:38pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism (Mike)

 
  Dear Mike,

It is from MN(5).  Majhimma Nikaya, Mulapannagga, Anangana
Sutta.  There isn't a reference on Access To Insight.

In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation, the bad
person is translated "inferior" person and the good person
is translated "superior person".  It is confirmed that
Venerable Sariputta is the one who said this.



kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: m. nease 
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:39 AM
> This is interesting--can you cite the source?

> For
> example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes
> people into:
> 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad
> people (I am translating
> badly from Thai )
> 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people
> 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad
> people
> 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people.

 
4761 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:41pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Dear Howard,

Thank you for your patience in reading through my
pali-ladden post.  I would like to establish a frame of
reference (also pali-ladden) so I can illustrate what I
meant.

All arising cittas and cetasikas are divided into 4 jati:
1) Kusala
2) Akusala
3) Kiriya
4) Vipaka

What we call "kamma" is the cetana (voilition) cetasika.
Each and every citta co-arises with Cetana cetasika: they
mutually condition each other (for arising and for support)
in many different ways.  Two of (but not only) the ways that
cetana cetasika conditions the citta are:
1) Saha-jati-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions
the co-arising (and co-falling) citta by "directing" it to
do the citta's function.
2) Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions
a post-nascent citta after the cetana has fallen away.  The
kind of condition is what we conventionally call as kamma.
A cetana that conditions the arising of the citta may have
fallen a long long time ago and many many lives away.

Note that while a vipaka citta is arising, an already-fallen
cetana MUST condition the vipaka citta to arise; otherwise,
the vipaka citta CANNOT arise.  However, the already-fallen
cetana is NOT the only dhamma that conditions the vipaka to
arise.  There are many other dhammas that condition the
citta in many different ways.  However, by definition, a
vipaka citta cannot arise unless there is a past cetana
(kamma) that is giving a result while the resultant citta is
arising.

Note that many Buddhists mistake the word Kamma as results
while in fact, this is the definition used in the texts:
kamma =~ deeds
vipaka = result of that deed, restricting to Citta and
cetasikas only.

9 groups of rupas can also have kamma as conditions.  They
include:
1) Eye sense
2) Ear sense
3) Smell sense
4) Taste sense
5) Touch sense
6) Being male
7) Being female
8) Heart base
9) Jivit-dhindariya (brahma plane only?)

The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a serie of 14
different cittas including:
1) Panca-dvara-vajjana
2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing)
3) Sampatichanna
4) Santirana
5) Votatappana
6) Javana
7) Javana
8) Javana
9) Javana
10) Javana
11) Javana
12) Javana
13) Tatalampanna
14) Tatalampanna

In order for one to see, one MUST have such a citta serie;
otherwise, seeing is impossible (except for the supernatural
[abhinna] sight).  The process of sensing at the other 4
sense dvaras incurs similar series of cittas with 2) being
replaced with ear-vinnna, smell-vinnana, taste-vinnana, and
touch-vinnana.

For a person and a ariya person (not an Arahant), the 14
cittas are divided by jati into the followings:
1) 5) = Kiriya
2) 3) 4) 13) 14) = vipaka
6) 7) 8) 9) 10) 11) 12) = kusala OR akusala: the same serie
must be of the same jati.

Again, all vipaka cittas, by definition, are conditioned by
kamma (Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya) as ONE of the conditions.
Please see other comments below (if you don't already have
enough!)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard 
>
> Hi, Kom -
>
> > Dear Howard,
> >
> > I would like to expand what you say a little
> bit further to see whether
> > or not we agree.
> >
> > --- Howard wrote:
> > > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna
> standpoint.  From
> > > vipaka, which
> > > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born
> a prince is a result of
> > > higher
> > > kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha
> obviously did not support
> > > caste
> > > system---there is no dhamma reason to
> categorize people in that
> > > manner. Would
> > > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna
> janitor or a rich,
> > > full-of-sensual
> > > belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
> > > king?".
> > >        I specifically would like to make two
> points which I think are
> > > in
> > > agreement with your statement:
> > > (2) Not all conditions are kammic
> consequences; a person might, to
> > > paint an
> > > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents,
> who because of greedy
> > > investments lose all their wealth, and then,
> in order to recoup their
> > > status,
> > > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child
> then being homeless and
> > > without
> > > guidance is an innocent victim of his
> parents' greed, but eventually,
> > > due to
> > > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a
> position as janitor. My point
> > > here is
> > > that events occur due to causes, but not
> necessarily due to one's
> > > volitional
> > > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover,
> the web of kamma is far
> > > too
> > > complex for us to infer that a particular
> status is the result of
> > > "good" or
> > > "bad" kamma.
> >
> > You are, of course, right on this at the very
> minute details.  When we
> > conventionally say something is a result of a
> kamma, it usually means a
> > whole load of stuffs---more than just a single
> moment of citta.  This
> > conventional saying is valid up to a certain
> point, as Kamma
> > contributes so heavily in what we see, hear,
> smell, taste, and touch.
> >
> > At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can
> safely say that each vipaka
> > citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has
> > previously-arisen (could be a long long time
> ago) cetana(s???) as
> > Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many
> pacayas.   Since there
> > are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting
> from bad kamma, and vipaka
> > resulting from good kamma, then either bad
> kamma or good kamma has to
> > be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya.
> >
> > Categorizing what we experience to be good
> vipaka or bad vipaka can be
> > very hard.  Unless one can differetiate the
> vipaka arising to
> > experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes
> virtually impossible to
> > identify that something we experience is a
> result of bad or good kamma.
> > But what we experience through the 5 senses are
> results of kamma
> > (except the appropriate cittas including
> panca-dvara-vajana, votappana,
> > javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless.
> >
> > As for your example, I can still contribute
> many of the experiences as
> > results of kamma.  Being born (patisandhi)
> citta in a birth plane, in
> > the situation where either bad or good vipaka
> is tipped to give more
> > results than the other, is definitely a result
> of kamma (patisandhi is
> > also vipaka).  The minute vipaka moments that
> the child suffer as a
> > result of having no parents are also results of
> kamma; the parents have
> > their own kamma.  We may be born by the result
> of a very high level of
> > kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be
> constantly troubled by the
> > results of other akusala.
> >
> > kom
> >
> ================================
>        I'm really not sure how much we are in
> agreement here or not. Your
> earlier comments in the post are technically
> beyond me. As far as your last
> two paragraphs are concerned, while they are not
> technically beyond me, I'm
> still not too clear on whether you are saying
> that all experience is the
> result of kamma or merely that one's kamma
> frequently is a factor. If the
> former, then we are in disagreement for two
> reasons:

By the above definition, then clearly the latter is the
case.  Not all cittas are conditioned in the way of
Nana-kannika-kamma.  Cetana to kill, I can assure you, is
NOT conditioned in the way of Nana-kannika-kamma.

> (1) In the suttas, the
> Buddha explicitly denied that claim, and (2) The
> notion that all experience
> is the result of kamma vitiates the very idea of
> kamma; if person B does what
> he does to person A because A's kamma requires

Again, I stress, a good part (the vipaka), but not all, of
what A is experiencing (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting,
feeling hot or cold, hard or soft, tactile) are the results
of kamma.

> it, then B had no choice, and
> should not incur a kammic debt himself. In fact,

While B is doing what he is doing, cetana cetasikas are
arising (in Javana, being kusala or akusala, see above) that
will become nana-kannika-kamma pacaya for his future vipaka
cittas.  However, the cetana is this serie are not
conditioned in the way of nana-kannika-kamma pacaya.

> volition goes right out the
> window if all events are kamma vipaka. My point
> here is that kamma being all
> powerful is self-contradictory. But perhaps you
> do not mean that all
> experience is the result of kamma.

I think we agree up to a certain point.  You are making a
similar (same?) point by a logical/sensible explanation.  I
am making an argument based on the study on the Abidhamma
and is (so far) supported by the Suttas, and of course, this
makes sense as well.

>        There are, of course, two significant ways
> in which kamma does
> *generally* condition one's experience: (1) The
> realm and context into which
> one is born is kammically determined, and

This one we are in agreement.

> (2)
> What one tends to notice is
> conditioned in part by one's interest, and what
> interests one is kammically
> determined. But not *all* things that happen to
> one are the result of one's
> own kamma.

This one it's unclear that we are in agreement/disagreement.
What one tends to notice is conditioned by one's
accumulation (pakatupa-nissaya-pacaya, another kind of
condition).  What one is interested in is the same way, and
definitely not kammically determined.

An example to this is that:
1) My interests in dhamma are not conditioned by
nana-kannika-kamma pacaya, but is based on most likely many
lives struggling to understand it.
2) My having access to dhammas and good friends are results
of good kammas that have been done in the past.

kom

 
4762 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:46pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism--Kom

 
  Dear Alex,

I am happy that we all have the opportunity to learn dhamma
even though we are from mny places.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex T [mailto:Alex T]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:03 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on
> the Defense of
> Buddhism--Kom
>
>
> --- Kom Tukovinit
>  wrote:
> Dear Kom,
>
>    You are wonderful.  Anumodana to your skill of
> explanation, and
> your spirit of sharing with us.
>
>    Thank you, Kom.  I've been reading your posts
> with joy.
>
> Anumodana,
> Alex

 
4763 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 2:46pm
Subject: Queensland Welcome

 
  Dear Chris,

I'd also like to belatedly give you a warm welcome
here. 

Thankyou for sharing these details with us. An old
friend, Azita, who is also lurking on the list, comes
from Qld too...maybe you'll meet up. We also have very
dear Buddhist friends in the Blue Mts (who, like
Azita, also go back to those early days in Bangkok).
Unfortunately they're away at the moment, otherwise
we'd have spent time with them there on our recent
trip and I'd be putting you in touch. 

I'm so glad to hear you're finding this list useful.
Do let us know if you have any questions or comments
and perhaps, between us, we can help fill the vacancy
your teacher left!

Hope the trains connect and you have a good stay in
the Blue Mountains (just outside Sydney for those less
familiar with the landscape).

Look forward to hearing any of your views on Buddhist
practice too.

Best wishes,

Sarah

--- CHRISTINE FORSYTH  wrote: >
Dear Amara,
> Thank you for your welcome.  Not your memory lapse,
> but mine. I am
> relatively new to this list (a few weeks), and
> should have introduced myself
> earlier - my apologies..  A few details - I am a
> mature-age woman living on
> 10 acres south of Brisbane, Queensland.  I work as a
> Social Worker at the
> local hospital. I have been attending a weekly group
> which practices
> Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Mahasi
> Sayadaw, but who have been
> without a teacher for nearly a year. (Not quite 'the
> blind leading the
> blind', but difficult at times.)
> I have found this list to be of great assistance,
> inspiration and support.
> metta,
> Chris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amara 
> > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:46 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here
> pali, pali pali pali.
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > Dear Christine,
> >
> > I hope it's not another memory lapse of mine to
> think you are a
> > new member of our group, even though you already
> know a number of us,
> > and to welcome you to the group!  I hope you find
> it enjoyable as well
> > as useful,
> >
> > A fellow subscriber,
> >
> > Amara
> >
> 



 
4764 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 2:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Dear Herman.

Just briefly to say thanks for your kind words and to
reassure you that (as far as i'm concerned) you never
come across harshly...quite the contrary.

I like the 'bulldozer' idea and appreciate any
reminders about sitting in it.....In reality, the
cittas (moments of consciousness) are very mixed,
aren't they? It's so helpful to be honest and get to
know to know to know them better!!

Thanks for sharing your keen interest in the dhamma.

Sarah



--- Herman wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I am always marvelling at
> and grateful for 
> the wisdom in your speech (typing :-). I am sure I
> must come across 
> harshly, I do try, but sometimes forget that there
> are more ways to 
> express the truth than with a bulldozer.
> 
> I appreciate the lack of flaming on this site, and
> the way that the 
> list members will resort to wisdom and compassion or
> even silence 
> (wisdom and silence are not mutually exclusive)
> before they embark on 
> a reply.
> 
> I have promised myself that I will not reply to the
> recent rocket 
> attack on "the Jains" until I know that I know that
> I know that I am 
> not sitting in my bulldozer.



 
4765 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman)

 
  Dear Rob,

> If one learns to develop
> awareness even
> when one is tired or worried or just walking to the
> shop then
> the way different objects are uncontrollable become
> gradually
> more apparent, I think. 
> Anyway sarah wrote that basics are basics and anatta
> should be
> stressed - and I can't argue there.
>  So here we go. Those who have heard it all before
> won't want to
> be subjected to another robert harangue so push
> 'delete' now.

For myself, I find it useful to hear the 'basics' over
and over and over again. What K.Sujin used to stress
to me when I first knew here was that now there is
seeing, visible object and the other realities which
should (Herman, please read 'it's incredibly useful
to') be known. When I spoke to her the other night, it
was just the same. When I read the Tipitaka this is
what I read and understand too.

Far from considering your messages (like this one) as
another 'harangue' to be zapped, I consider them as a
wonderful opportunity to hear, consider and be
reminded of what is most useful at this moment and
what our lives that seem so very compicated and
'messed up' really consist of. As you quoted recently,
this is the way to conquer!

Thanks as always,

Sarah



 
4766 From: Antony 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:32pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  I just remember it was a nice story, in the midst of peta, 
> metta and brahma vihara- maybe we should add that series to the 
> website's Q&A!  What do you think?

Add it away if you think it's useful



> but then where can 
> you go (or stay!) where the six senses don't keep you really busy?  
> 
> Do keep us posted on your adventures,
> 
> Amara

What you say is so true "senses working overdrive" was a song by the 
english group XTC, that soubds like us...

antony's senses and the rest of him.

 
4767 From: Antony 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:34pm
Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali.

 
  yes let me know and we can link


--- "cybele chiodi"  
wrote:
> 
> Dear Antony
> 
> 
> >>Hello meditators...
> >
> >oops sorry, wrong list!
> 
> Well Antony I am a dynamic meditator but I don't reject the formal 
tradition 
> at all. Still in the right list!
> 
> 
> >Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing
> >off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list
> >called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a
> >tatooed bikie woman. cool hey?
> 
> Dear Antony believe me or not I have got sixteen tattoos all over 
my body 
> 'made in Chiangmai, Thailand' and not at all regretted.
> Most probably, my karmic mess allowing I will be in Sidney in 
June/July to 
> meet another Antony, buddhist and Australian friend of mine from 
another 
> buddhist list therefore if you will be there and not too busy we 
can link 
> up.
> 
> >>antony
> >sydney, it's getting colder, australia.
> 
> don't complain, I am in London and it's snowing, brrrr.....
> 
> love and respect
> 
> cybele
> 


 
4768 From: Antony 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Why "Pali"

 
  Yes I am familiar with both these things but I don't think the whole 
thing adds up for me. If it was text language it wasn't spoken 
maghadi it was what they wrote down. It leaves open the possibility 
that this was not the language Buddha spoke but some derivative of 
it. If that is so then tripitaka is not the words of the Buddha but 
something close to them. What is Brahmi... have you heard of that. I 
understand that the script on the Asokan pillars are in Bramhi.

antony his senses and all those objects trying to pretend they're his 
self.


--- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> > I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about
> > the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi
> > and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for
> > some reason I forget why.
> 
> "Pali language" means "text language". (This is in the introduction 
to 
> Nyanamoli's Visudhi magga, I believe.)

 
4769 From: Antony 
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:44pm
Subject: Re: herman pali and the weather

 
  Hey there robert thanks.

I didn't see your post till after i replied to Dan's. It sounds like 
a great article that might even shut me up on the subject. But if you 
don't ask you never never know. I have heard of the links but not 
seen any real evidence and I like a bit of evidence, just a little 
will do. 

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Antony,
> I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about
> the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi
> and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for
> some reason I forget why., There is a very learned article by
> narada thera of sri lanka that was published in the WFB about
> 15years back that had many refernces showing why pali(maghadi)
> was the language used by the buddha. When it was written down it
> was written in whatever script was commen in the area. So in sri
> lanka the script was different from the one asoka used (brahmi)
> but the pronunciation of the words was essentially the same.
> When I go to thailand next I will visit the WFB and try to find
> the article . I wrote to them a while back asking for a copy but
> they said they were too busy to look. 
> robert
> --- Antony wrote:
> > my dear herman
> > 
> > did they have mullets in Buddhas time?
> > 
> > perhaps our friends don't know what a mullet is. I hope youare
> > not 
> > reffering to the hairdo because it has a human head in it. 
> > 
> > I would think that our learned friends could translate 'get a'
> > 
> > and 'up ya' into pali and perhaps fish would do for mullet.
> > 
> > 
> > anyway herman I hope you get a bit of pali into ya because it
> > might 
> > help us all.
> > 
> > I'm interested in the Pali question because I keep reading 
> > conflicting things about it. Is it a written from of spoken
> > sankrit, 
> > or is the the written form of maghadi which the buddha
> > probably spoke 
> > and where does brahmi fit in.
> > 
> > --- Herman wrote:
> > > Hi again,
> > > 
> > > --- Antony wrote:
> > > > hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should
> > be 
> > > period, 
> > > > but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days
> > have been 
> > > > pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly
> > cooler.
> > > > 
> > > > Know anything about the history of pali Herman?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Not a sausage, I'm afraid. 
> > > 
> > > How would you translate into Pali : "Get a mullet up ya" 
> > :-) 
> > > 
> > > It would be a pretty cool way to sign of any post, anywhere,
> > I'd 
> > > reckon.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Catch ya later on
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Herman

 
4770 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Best evidence, Dearhunter connection

 
  Joe

Just a quick thought on this thread.

--- Joe wrote: > Jon
> Rereading my quick post on 'best evidence', by the
> way, I hope I'm 
> not giving the impression I didn't think that the
> Tripitaka isn't 
> part of 'the evidence'. It's the matrix within which
> Buddhism's 
> pedagogical dimension has developed, even in its
> most Zen-like 
> permutations. It may be the best historical evidence
> we have. Living 
> Buddhism is the best present evidence -- that's what
> I mean. Buddhism 
> may not exist independently of the pitakas (yet
> again it may), but 
> neither can the pitakas exist independently of their
> human (and 
> perhaps divine) guardians. 
> 
> The proof is in the pudding, not in the cookbook,
> one might say. 

I find it useful when discussing this area to identify
clearly whether we are talking about the actual text
(in Pali) that we know as the Tripitaka, on the one
hand, or the validity of the teaching/doctrine
expounded in the Tripitaka, on the other.

As to the former, I am not aware of any claim to there
being a more authentic record of the Buddha's words
than the Tripitaka, and I don't think you are
suggesting there is.

As to the latter, this is not something that is
capable of verification by any objective criteria, and
of course no-one has ever said is was or should be. 
The Buddha described his teaching as being verifiable
each person for himself, and that is as far as it can
be taken.

> Hope to see you in Bangkok. I have a pretty vivid
> mental image of a 
> man's head that I associate as being you. That image
> became all the 
> more vivid recently when I came across a 1977 photo
> of that same 
> person on the set of The Deer Hunter, where that
> person was working, 
> like me, as an extra at the time. Best evidence. If
> you weren't an 
> extra on The Deer Hunter than the textual evidence
> evaporates.

This indeed makes it very likely that you have the
right person.  Yes, I was an extra in that film
although I think a fair percentage of rest of
Bangkok's farang community of our age and disposition
(ie. not part of the business expat set) would have
been there too.

Does the person in the photo have a beard (of sorts)? 
I have just remembered that I was a problem for the
production team becasue they couldn't decide whether a
US soldier in Viet Nam (my character)could have had a
beard.  Consequently, I was sent back and forth and
no-one seemd to want me!  In any event, I think my
scene ended up on the cutting-room floor (maybe
because of the unwanted beard).  So much for my one
chance at stardom.

Jon


 
4771 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 7:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Queensland Welcome

 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:46 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Queensland Welcome


> Dear Chris,
> 
> I'd also like to belatedly give you a warm welcome
> here. 

 Dear Sarah,
Thank you  :-))
metta,
Chris

 
4772 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 8:45pm
Subject: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine),
I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi
confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the
web.
He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from
Visuddhimagga on your 
website." I'll let mary know this too.

And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great
and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution:
"Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group.
However, where 
I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not
even have
mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a
solar-energy
system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far
as I've
advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice
a week 
to
respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote


robert




 
4773 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Dealing with Akusala Again?

 
  Kom,

Excellent--thanks very much.  Here's a passage from
it, from
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm:

Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with blemish,
who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish
in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to
dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled
mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a bronze
bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered
with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food in
it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust and
as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more dusty
and stained. In the same way this person with blemish,
who would not know, as it really is, there is blemish
in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to
dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled
mind with greed, hate and delusion. 

This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing with
akusala'.  I wonder how this passage can be reconciled
with the frequently stressed impossibility of control?
 
Thanks again Kom,

mike

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> 
> It is from MN(5).  Majhimma Nikaya, Mulapannagga,
> Anangana
> Sutta.  There isn't a reference on Access To
> Insight.
> 
> In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation,
> the bad
> person is translated "inferior" person and the good
> person
> is translated "superior person".  It is confirmed
> that
> Venerable Sariputta is the one who said this.
> 
> kom


 
4774 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: herman pali and the weather

 
  Dear Antony and Dan,
Pleased if I can help Antony. I really want to find the article
as I know it is a common question and gets under the skin of
people. If I find it it will be going on my web page too.
 And thank you Dan for your help here.
robert

--- Antony wrote:
> Hey there robert thanks.
> 
> I didn't see your post till after i replied to Dan's. It
> sounds like 
> a great article that might even shut me up on the subject. But
> if you 
> don't ask you never never know. I have heard of the links but
> not 
> seen any real evidence and I like a bit of evidence, just a
> little 
> will do. 
> 



 
4775 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again?

 
  --- Dear Mike,
I don't know if this quite fits with the sutta but anyway:
One can't control but if there are the right conditions kusala
must arise. Isn't it true how much more we know about our
"blemishes" now than before we heard Dhamma. When I began
Buddhism I couldn't even see good reasons to respect my parents.
I thought they owed me for being their son!
And the refined akusala such as subtle clinging when drinking a
glass of water was something I  never dreamed of. This
understanding continually grows and it means that there is more
tendency to turn away from akusala. Not by trying to control but
because the dirtiness of akusala is seen. 
It is slow process - this natural turning away- but very real. 
There are other ways too. We can try to control and make our
lives very strict but it depends also on accumulations and
conditions whether one can live that way (even if we think we
should).
I think we make right efforts when we learn about akusala and
kusala. By investigating akusala we learn about its dangers. In
the beginning we might see the danger of attachment to alcohol,
later to attachments to people, or food. But if we stop there it
is not enough and we should see how dangerous the attachment to
view is also. 
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Kom,
> 
> Excellent--thanks very much.  Here's a passage from
> it, from
>
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm:
> 
> Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with blemish,
> who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish
> in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to
> dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled
> mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a bronze
> bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered
> with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food in
> it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust and
> as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more dusty
> and stained. In the same way this person with blemish,
> who would not know, as it really is, there is blemish
> in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to
> dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled
> mind with greed, hate and delusion. 
> 
> This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing with
> akusala'.  I wonder how this passage can be reconciled
> with the frequently stressed impossibility of control?
>  
> Thanks again Kom,
> 
> mike
> 



 
4776 From: Jain History   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 0:59am
Subject: Bhagwan Mahavir & Goutam Buddha

 
  Dear Friends,
Jai Jinendra!

An interesting article about Bhagwan Mahavir and Goutam Buddha written by 
Ratnanam Matar is uploaded at:

http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/research.html

Please have a look.

I am waiting for your valuable remarks and suggestions about the site.

Mahavir Sanglikar

 
4777 From: craig garner   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 3:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bhagwan Mahavir & Goutam Buddha

 
  Dear all,
             Hello  I am Craig and I am very interested in all of Buddhas
teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain, Originaly from Sydney. I am
more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this sangha, and learn as
much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to all.
                                               Craig

 
4778 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 2:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi, Kom -

       Thank you very much for this detailed clarification. It helps a lot. 
There is much too much here for me to respond to point by point. It does seem 
that we are not in total disagreement on this issue. (How is that for a 
circumlocution?! ;-))
       Still, we do differ. Your final example, for example, "bothers" me. 
You write: "My having access to dhammas and good friends are results of good 
kammas that have been done in the past." It seems to me that this may or may 
not be so. Your interest in the Dhamma has directed you to the internet, 
where for a variety of causes involving other people, there are Buddhist 
e-mail lists. Your coming into contact kalyana mittas may simply be due to 
the abilities and compassion of others, and be quite independent of your (I'm 
certain) considerable good kamma. Of course, your interest plays an important 
role as well, but you have said that interest is not kammic.
       What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal presence 
(and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I 
understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just makes me 
a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The Buddha 
has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is due to 
one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be the 
Abhidhammic understanding. To back up my claim about the suttas, consider, 
for example, the following sutta taken from Access to Insight:
       
Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21



Moliyasivaka Sutta



To Sivaka

Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera

For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
From <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html">Contemplation of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303)
</A>, translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication 
Society, 1983). Copyright ©1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with 
permission. Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove 
Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya 
Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous 
and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, 
revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: 
'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or 
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what 
does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) 
bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can 
be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by 
(disorders of the) phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by change of 
climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by the results of Kamma -- 
(through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this 
happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. 
"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 
'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or 
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they 
go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the 
world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and 
brahmins." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: 
"It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered 
Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him 
as long as life lasts." 

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 4/20/01 2:26:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> Thank you for your patience in reading through my
> pali-ladden post.  I would like to establish a frame of
> reference (also pali-ladden) so I can illustrate what I
> meant.
> 
> All arising cittas and cetasikas are divided into 4 jati:
> 1) Kusala
> 2) Akusala
> 3) Kiriya
> 4) Vipaka
> 
> What we call "kamma" is the cetana (voilition) cetasika.
> Each and every citta co-arises with Cetana cetasika: they
> mutually condition each other (for arising and for support)
> in many different ways.  Two of (but not only) the ways that
> cetana cetasika conditions the citta are:
> 1) Saha-jati-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions
> the co-arising (and co-falling) citta by "directing" it to
> do the citta's function.
> 2) Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions
> a post-nascent citta after the cetana has fallen away.  The
> kind of condition is what we conventionally call as kamma.
> A cetana that conditions the arising of the citta may have
> fallen a long long time ago and many many lives away.
> 
> Note that while a vipaka citta is arising, an already-fallen
> cetana MUST condition the vipaka citta to arise; otherwise,
> the vipaka citta CANNOT arise.  However, the already-fallen
> cetana is NOT the only dhamma that conditions the vipaka to
> arise.  There are many other dhammas that condition the
> citta in many different ways.  However, by definition, a
> vipaka citta cannot arise unless there is a past cetana
> (kamma) that is giving a result while the resultant citta is
> arising.
> 
> Note that many Buddhists mistake the word Kamma as results
> while in fact, this is the definition used in the texts:
> kamma =~ deeds
> vipaka = result of that deed, restricting to Citta and
> cetasikas only.
> 
> 9 groups of rupas can also have kamma as conditions.  They
> include:
> 1) Eye sense
> 2) Ear sense
> 3) Smell sense
> 4) Taste sense
> 5) Touch sense
> 6) Being male
> 7) Being female
> 8) Heart base
> 9) Jivit-dhindariya (brahma plane only?)
> 
> The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a serie of 14
> different cittas including:
> 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana
> 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing)
> 3) Sampatichanna
> 4) Santirana
> 5) Votatappana
> 6) Javana
> 7) Javana
> 8) Javana
> 9) Javana
> 10) Javana
> 11) Javana
> 12) Javana
> 13) Tatalampanna
> 14) Tatalampanna
> 
> In order for one to see, one MUST have such a citta serie;
> otherwise, seeing is impossible (except for the supernatural
> [abhinna] sight).  The process of sensing at the other 4
> sense dvaras incurs similar series of cittas with 2) being
> replaced with ear-vinnna, smell-vinnana, taste-vinnana, and
> touch-vinnana.
> 
> For a person and a ariya person (not an Arahant), the 14
> cittas are divided by jati into the followings:
> 1) 5) = Kiriya
> 2) 3) 4) 13) 14) = vipaka
> 6) 7) 8) 9) 10) 11) 12) = kusala OR akusala: the same serie
> must be of the same jati.
> 
> Again, all vipaka cittas, by definition, are conditioned by
> kamma (Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya) as ONE of the conditions.
> Please see other comments below (if you don't already have
> enough!)
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Howard 
> >
> > Hi, Kom -
> >
> > > Dear Howard,
> > >
> > > I would like to expand what you say a little
> > bit further to see whether
> > > or not we agree.
> > >
> > > --- Howard wrote:
> > > > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna
> > standpoint.  From
> > > > vipaka, which
> > > > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born
> > a prince is a result of
> > > > higher
> > > > kusala than being  born a janitor.  Buddha
> > obviously did not support
> > > > caste
> > > > system---there is no dhamma reason to
> > categorize people in that
> > > > manner. Would
> > > > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna
> > janitor or a rich,
> > > > full-of-sensual
> > > > belongings, but with Micha-dithi,
> > > > king?".
> > > >        I specifically would like to make two
> > points which I think are
> > > > in
> > > > agreement with your statement:
> > > > (2) Not all conditions are kammic
> > consequences; a person might, to
> > > > paint an
> > > > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents,
> > who because of greedy
> > > > investments lose all their wealth, and then,
> > in order to recoup their
> > > > status,
> > > > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child
> > then being homeless and
> > > > without
> > > > guidance is an innocent victim of his
> > parents' greed, but eventually,
> > > > due to
> > > > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a
> > position as janitor. My point
> > > > here is
> > > > that events occur due to causes, but not
> > necessarily due to one's
> > > > volitional
> > > > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover,
> > the web of kamma is far
> > > > too
> > > > complex for us to infer that a particular
> > status is the result of
> > > > "good" or
> > > > "bad" kamma.
> > >
> > > You are, of course, right on this at the very
> > minute details.  When we
> > > conventionally say something is a result of a
> > kamma, it usually means a
> > > whole load of stuffs---more than just a single
> > moment of citta.  This
> > > conventional saying is valid up to a certain
> > point, as Kamma
> > > contributes so heavily in what we see, hear,
> > smell, taste, and touch.
> > >
> > > At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can
> > safely say that each vipaka
> > > citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has
> > > previously-arisen (could be a long long time
> > ago) cetana(s???) as
> > > Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many
> > pacayas.   Since there
> > > are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting
> > from bad kamma, and vipaka
> > > resulting from good kamma, then either bad
> > kamma or good kamma has to
> > > be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya.
> > >
> > > Categorizing what we experience to be good
> > vipaka or bad vipaka can be
> > > very hard.  Unless one can differetiate the
> > vipaka arising to
> > > experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes
> > virtually impossible to
> > > identify that something we experience is a
> > result of bad or good kamma.
> > > But what we experience through the 5 senses are
> > results of kamma
> > > (except the appropriate cittas including
> > panca-dvara-vajana, votappana,
> > > javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless.
> > >
> > > As for your example, I can still contribute
> > many of the experiences as
> > > results of kamma.  Being born (patisandhi)
> > citta in a birth plane, in
> > > the situation where either bad or good vipaka
> > is tipped to give more
> > > results than the other, is definitely a result
> > of kamma (patisandhi is
> > > also vipaka).  The minute vipaka moments that
> > the child suffer as a
> > > result of having no parents are also results of
> > kamma; the parents have
> > > their own kamma.  We may be born by the result
> > of a very high level of
> > > kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be
> > constantly troubled by the
> > > results of other akusala.
> > >
> > > kom
> > >
> > ================================
> >        I'm really not sure how much we are in
> > agreement here or not. Your
> > earlier comments in the post are technically
> > beyond me. As far as your last
> > two paragraphs are concerned, while they are not
> > technically beyond me, I'm
> > still not too clear on whether you are saying
> > that all experience is the
> > result of kamma or merely that one's kamma
> > frequently is a factor. If the
> > former, then we are in disagreement for two
> > reasons:
> 
> By the above definition, then clearly the latter is the
> case.  Not all cittas are conditioned in the way of
> Nana-kannika-kamma.  Cetana to kill, I can assure you, is
> NOT conditioned in the way of Nana-kannika-kamma.
> 
> > (1) In the suttas, the
> > Buddha explicitly denied that claim, and (2) The
> > notion that all experience
> > is the result of kamma vitiates the very idea of
> > kamma; if person B does what
> > he does to person A because A's kamma requires
> 
> Again, I stress, a good part (the vipaka), but not all, of
> what A is experiencing (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting,
> feeling hot or cold, hard or soft, tactile) are the results
> of kamma.
> 
> > it, then B had no choice, and
> > should not incur a kammic debt himself. In fact,
> 
> While B is doing what he is doing, cetana cetasikas are
> arising (in Javana, being kusala or akusala, see above) that
> will become nana-kannika-kamma pacaya for his future vipaka
> cittas.  However, the cetana is this serie are not
> conditioned in the way of nana-kannika-kamma pacaya.
> 
> > volition goes right out the
> > window if all events are kamma vipaka. My point
> > here is that kamma being all
> > powerful is self-contradictory. But perhaps you
> > do not mean that all
> > experience is the result of kamma.
> 
> I think we agree up to a certain point.  You are making a
> similar (same?) point by a logical/sensible explanation.  I
> am making an argument based on the study on the Abidhamma
> and is (so far) supported by the Suttas, and of course, this
> makes sense as well.
> 
> >        There are, of course, two significant ways
> > in which kamma does
> > *generally* condition one's experience: (1) The
> > realm and context into which
> > one is born is kammically determined, and
> 
> This one we are in agreement.
> 
> > (2)
> > What one tends to notice is
> > conditioned in part by one's interest, and what
> > interests one is kammically
> > determined. But not *all* things that happen to
> > one are the result of one's
> > own kamma.
> 
> This one it's unclear that we are in agreement/disagreement.
> What one tends to notice is conditioned by one's
> accumulation (pakatupa-nissaya-pacaya, another kind of
> condition).  What one is interested in is the same way, and
> definitely not kammically determined.
> 
> An example to this is that:
> 1) My interests in dhamma are not conditioned by
> nana-kannika-kamma pacaya, but is based on most likely many
> lives struggling to understand it.
> 2) My having access to dhammas and good friends are results
> of good kammas that have been done in the past.
> 
> kom
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


 
4779 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Dear Howard,

Thanks for the reference.  If you remember the previous post, the
process of seeing (14 cittas) through the eye door is produced by both
kammic conditions and non-kammic conditions.  With that explanation, in
generality, this sutta doesn't contradict the abhidhamma explanation,
i.e., neither sources claim that feelings (vedana cetasika rising with
EVERY citta) are ALWAYS results of kammic forces.

On the other hand, there are specific issues that I cannot yet
reconcile.  This I have to study further to see if there is any
reconciliation.  Maybe Jon, Robert, Sarah, or K. Amara will help out
here...

I will get back to you on this again...

kom

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Kom -
> 
>        Thank you very much for this detailed clarification. It helps
> a lot. 
> There is much too much here for me to respond to point by point. It
> does seem 
> that we are not in total disagreement on this issue. (How is that for
> a 
> circumlocution?! ;-))
>        Still, we do differ. Your final example, for example,
> "bothers" me. 
> You write: "My having access to dhammas and good friends are results
> of good 
> kammas that have been done in the past." It seems to me that this may
> or may 
> not be so. Your interest in the Dhamma has directed you to the
> internet, 
> where for a variety of causes involving other people, there are
> Buddhist 
> e-mail lists. Your coming into contact kalyana mittas may simply be
> due to 
> the abilities and compassion of others, and be quite independent of
> your (I'm 
> certain) considerable good kamma. Of course, your interest plays an
> important 
> role as well, but you have said that interest is not kammic.
>        What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal
> presence 
> (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I 
> understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just
> makes me 
> a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The
> Buddha 
> has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is
> due to 
> one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be
> the 
> Abhidhammic understanding. To back up my claim about the suttas,
> consider, 
> for example, the following sutta taken from Access to Insight:
>        
> Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21
> 
> 
> 
> Moliyasivaka Sutta
> 
> 
> 
> To Sivaka
> 
> Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera
> 
> For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
> From <A
>
HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html">Contemplation
> of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303)
> </A>, translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist
> Publication 
> Society, 1983). Copyright ©1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used
> with 
> permission. Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the
> Bamboo-Grove 
> Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering
> ascetic, Moliya 
> Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of
> courteous 
> and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said:
> "There are, 
> revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and
> view: 
> 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or 
> neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.'
> Now, what 
> does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of
> the) 
> bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this
> happens, can 
> be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.
> Produced by 
> (disorders of the) phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by
> change of 
> climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by the results of Kamma
> -- 
> (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings.
> That this 
> happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as
> true. 
> "Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view
> that 
> 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or 
> neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,'
> then they 
> go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true
> by the 
> world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these
> ascetics and 
> brahmins." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering
> ascetic, said: 
> "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the
> revered 
> Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge
> in him 
> as long as life lasts." 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 



 
4780 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:14am
Subject: Another Welcome & a few LINKS

 
  Dear Craig,

--- craig garner  wrote: > 
>  Dear all,
>              Hello  I am Craig and I am very
> interested in all of Buddhas
> teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain,
> Originaly from Sydney. I am
> more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this
> sangha, and learn as
> much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to
> all.
>                                                
> 

Thank you for joining us and to give us an
introduction without prompting! It's interesting and
helpful to know a little about new members.

That's rather an unusual move..usually we Europeans
move TO Sydney, rather than the other way round, but
at least you still have some nice sun :))

Please ask any questions, give any comments or shout
if you need clarification. As we've had a few new
members joining recently, I'll add some links below.
(Kom, just hoping I get them right!!)

Best regards,
Sarah

TO ALL NEW MEMBERS
1. For help with pali terms:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm

2. For very helpful links and bookmarks:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links

3. For copies of a small selection of useful posts
from the dsg archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm

4. DSG back-up archives and good search engine:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links

click on Escribe link. Enter 'dsgarchives' and then
for password, 'metta'.

5. To check the guidelines anytime:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup%20Guidelines.htm

6. To check options for handling in-coming mail:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Delivery%20Options%20for%20your%20DSG%20Messages.htm



 
4781 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:54am
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Kom -

>        Still, we do differ. Your final example, for 
example, "bothers" me. 
> You write: "My having access to dhammas and good friends are 
results of good 
> kammas that have been done in the past." It seems to me that this 
may or may 
> not be so. Your interest in the Dhamma has directed you to the 
internet, 
> where for a variety of causes involving other people, there are 
Buddhist 
> e-mail lists. Your coming into contact kalyana mittas may simply be 
due to 
> the abilities and compassion of others, and be quite independent of 
your (I'm 
> certain) considerable good kamma. Of course, your interest plays an 
important 
> role as well, but you have said that interest is not kammic.
>        What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal 
presence 
> (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I 
> understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just 
makes me 
> a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. 
The Buddha 
> has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one 
is due to 
> one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be 
the 
> Abhidhammic understanding. 

Howard, once again you raise a very interesting point. Perhaps 
someone will tell me I've read this wrong, but I understand all 
vipakacittas to be either kusala or akusala, and that that all the 
dva-panca-vinnana are all vipakacittas. 

For this reason I agree the Abhidharma appears to contradict the 
Buddha in this sutta. Why do I say this? Because there is nothing 
that can arise in outer experience that is NOT impinging on these ten 
vipakacittas. To wit, the experience of a falling brick landing on 
your head would HAVE to be vipakacitta, because there is no other way 
to experience the hardness dhatu impinging on kaya-vinnana. And all 
kaya-vinnana is vipakacitta. There is no citta there to experience 
paccaya OTHER than kamma-vipaka, in other words, so the Abhidhamma 
implies here that there is no experience apart from kamma-vipaka 
possible. If that brick feel due to paccaya other than kamma, then it 
would not be possible to experience that falling brick if all 
vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka. If this is so, vipaka is 
only a small part of the equation in any experience.

 
4782 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 4:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi, Kom -

In a message dated 4/20/01 7:27:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom
writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> Thanks for the reference.  If you remember the previous post, the
> process of seeing (14 cittas) through the eye door is produced by both
> kammic conditions and non-kammic conditions.  With that explanation, in
> generality, this sutta doesn't contradict the abhidhamma explanation,
> i.e., neither sources claim that feelings (vedana cetasika rising with
> EVERY citta) are ALWAYS results of kammic forces.
> 
> On the other hand, there are specific issues that I cannot yet
> reconcile.  This I have to study further to see if there is any
> reconciliation.  Maybe Jon, Robert, Sarah, or K. Amara will help out
> here...
> 
> I will get back to you on this again...
> 
> kom
> 
==============================
       I look forward to hearing from you again on this issue (and others). 
Meanwhile here is another quote on the topic, this time from Buddhism in a 
Nutshell, by Narada Mahathera:

       "We reap what we have sown. What we sow we reap somewhere or some 
when. In one sense we are the result of what we were; we will be the result 
of what we are. In another sense, we are not totally the result of what we 
were and we will not absolutely be the result of what we are. For instance, a 
criminal today may be a saint tomorrow. Buddhism attributes this variation to 
Kamma, but it does not assert that everything is due to Kamma. If everything 
were due to Kamma, a man must ever be bad, for it is his Kamma to be bad. One 
need not consult a physician to be cured of a disease, for if one's Kamma is 
such one will be cured. According to Buddhism, there are five orders or 
processes (Niyamas) which operate in the physical and mental realms: 
> i. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable 
> acts produce corresponding good and bad results. ii. Utu Niyama, physical 
> (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. iii. Bija 
> Niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice 
> produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The 
> scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins 
> may be ascribed to this order. iv. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic 
> law, e.g., processes of consciousness (Citta vithi), power of mind etc. v. 
> Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at 
> 

Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing 
five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Kamma is, therefore, 
only one of the five orders that prevail in the universe."

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         






 
4783 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Dear Erik,

--- Erik wrote:
> Howard, once again you raise a very interesting point. Perhaps 
> someone will tell me I've read this wrong, but I understand (1) all 
> vipakacittas to be either kusala or akusala, and that that (2) all
the 
> dva-panca-vinnana are all vipakacittas. 

(1) is technically inaccurate.  Vipaka is a RESULT of kusala or
akusala, and is NOT kusala or akusala.  As also mentioned in the
previous post, the cittas can be categorized into four categories only:
kusala, akusala, vipaka, and kiriya.  For discussion ease, kusala
vipaka and akusala vipaka are often used; however, the two terms refer
to the same jati: vipaka.

(2) is correct.

> For this reason I agree the Abhidharma appears to contradict the 
> Buddha in this sutta. Why do I say this? Because there is nothing 
> that can arise in outer experience that is NOT impinging on these ten
> vipakacittas. To wit, the experience of a falling brick landing on 
> your head would HAVE to be vipakacitta, because there is no other way

Again, if you re-read my previous post, not all the cittas in the
panca-dvara are vipaka cittas, but they experience the SAME paramatha
arammana.  

> to experience the hardness dhatu impinging on kaya-vinnana. And all 
> kaya-vinnana is vipakacitta. There is no citta there to experience 
> paccaya OTHER than kamma-vipaka, in other words, so the Abhidhamma 
> implies here that there is no experience apart from kamma-vipaka 
> possible. 

Abhidhamma implies here that if you are experiencing an aramana through
one of the five dvaras, then some, but not all, of the cittas rising to
experience that aramana MUST be vipakas.  The citta that sees
(jakkhu-vinnana) must be vipaka, but the javana cittas in the
jakhu-dvaras may be dosa-mula (anger), and this is NOT vipaka.

Also, the mano-dvara vithi cittas that rises after the panca-dvara
vithi cittas (separated by a few bhavangha) also experience the SAME
paramattha aramana as the citta in the panca-dvara vithi.  MOST (except
1 kiriya, and 2 vipkas in the kama planes) cittas in the mano-dvara are
kusala and akusala, and again, not Vipaka.

> If that brick feel due to paccaya other than kamma, then it
> would not be possible to experience that falling brick if all 
> vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka. If this is so, vipaka is
> only a small part of the equation in any experience.

I hope the explanation above already explains the above question.  When
there is hardness impinging on the kaya-dvara, there are other cittas
besides Vipika that experience that hardness.  

Just to further nit-pick here, saying "vipakacittas can experience is
kamma vipaka" is also technically inaccurate.  A vipaka citta
experiences an aramana.  The aramana can be rupa, citta, cetasikas,
nibhanna, (and pannatti???).  The aramana MIGHT not have been
conditioned via nana-kannika-kamma, but the Vipaka itself must be
conditioned by nana-kannika-kamma.

kom




 
4784 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:12am
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  >        What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal 
presence 
> (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I 
> understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just 
makes me 
> a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The 
Buddha 
> has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is 
due to 
> one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be 
the 
> Abhidhammic understanding. 
Abhidhamma matches well your reading of the suttas on this point. More 
on this later...

 
4785 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bhagwan Mahavir & Goutam Buddha

 
  Dear Mahivir,
I am impressed that you would put this article on your Jain site
as it clearly puts the Buddha in a more favourable light than
Bhagwan Mahavir. So honest of you!
I hope Marlon will appreciate this too.
robert
--- Jain History  wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> Jai Jinendra!
> 
> An interesting article about Bhagwan Mahavir and Goutam Buddha
> written by 
> Ratnanam Matar is uploaded at:
> 
> http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/research.html
> 
> Please have a look.
> 
> I am waiting for your valuable remarks and suggestions about
> the site.
> 
> Mahavir Sanglikar
>




 
4786 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Dear Howard,
I'm not sure where all your objections are coming from here. kom
has explained that kamma is not the only condition, although it
is one of the conditions, for vipaka citta - and that in a
series of cittas there are many other cittas that are not
conditioned by kamma.

You see the Abhidhamma is vital to understand the world. We tend
to live in concept and story. But the Abhidhamma, when it is
applied in the moment shows us the world as it really is - only
namas and rupas.
Just a simple example from the commentary to the Patthana.
If one has a warm, soft dogshit in his hand and looks at it you
might think this is all bad. However, the direct perception of
this through the bodydoor is kusala kamma vipaka (good resultant
through the body sense because of the warmth and softness).
Through the eyesense it is akusla kamma vipaka - because of the
ugliness. Through the nose door - again akusala kamma vipaka(bad
resultant) because of the bad odour. All of these dhammas are
alternating (and so many others that are not vipaka-resultant)so
rapidly and if one still thinks in terms of concepts rather than
studying and experiencing paramattha dhammas as they appear
through the 6doors there can never be deep understanding of
these matters. 
Nowhere does the abhidhamma indicate that all vinnana has kammic
conditions.
robert
W

> >        What particularly concerns me is the claim to the
> universal 
> presence 
> > (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment
> (vi~n~nana). I 
> > understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But
> that just 
> makes me 
> > a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the
> Abhidhamma. The 
> Buddha 
> > has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that
> befalls one is 
> due to 
> > one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show
> to be 
> the 
> > Abhidhammic understanding. 



 
4787 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Dear Erik,
The abhidhamma nowhere says that falling bricks, the wind, trees
falling down etc. etc. is due to kamma.
The Abhidhamma does say that the brief moment of vipaka through
the bodysense is partly conditioned by past kamma. 
robert

--- Erik wrote:
> --- . 
> 
> > For this reason I agree the Abhidharma appears to contradict
> the 
> Buddha in this sutta. Why do I say this? Because there is
> nothing 
> that can arise in outer experience that is NOT impinging on
> these ten 
> vipakacittas. To wit, the experience of a falling brick
> landing on 
> your head would HAVE to be vipakacitta, because there is no
> other way 
> to experience the hardness dhatu impinging on kaya-vinnana.
> And all 
> kaya-vinnana is vipakacitta. There is no citta there to
> experience 
> paccaya OTHER than kamma-vipaka, in other words, so the
> Abhidhamma 
> implies here that there is no experience apart from
> kamma-vipaka 
> possible. If that brick feel due to paccaya other than kamma,
> then it 
> would not be possible to experience that falling brick if all 
> vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka. If this is so,
> vipaka is 
> only a small part of the equation in any experience.
> 
> 



 
4788 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 6:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 4/20/01 9:45:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> Dear Howard,
> I'm not sure where all your objections are coming from here. kom
> has explained that kamma is not the only condition, although it
> is one of the conditions, for vipaka citta - and that in a
> series of cittas there are many other cittas that are not
> conditioned by kamma.
> 
> You see the Abhidhamma is vital to understand the world. We tend
> to live in concept and story. But the Abhidhamma, when it is
> applied in the moment shows us the world as it really is - only
> namas and rupas.
> Just a simple example from the commentary to the Patthana.
> If one has a warm, soft dogshit in his hand and looks at it you
> might think this is all bad. However, the direct perception of
> this through the bodydoor is kusala kamma vipaka (good resultant
> through the body sense because of the warmth and softness).
> Through the eyesense it is akusla kamma vipaka - because of the
> ugliness. Through the nose door - again akusala kamma vipaka(bad
> resultant) because of the bad odour. All of these dhammas are
> alternating (and so many others that are not vipaka-resultant)so
> rapidly and if one still thinks in terms of concepts rather than
> studying and experiencing paramattha dhammas as they appear
> through the 6doors there can never be deep understanding of
> these matters. 
> Nowhere does the abhidhamma indicate that all vinnana has kammic
> conditions.
> robert
> W
> 
===============================
       It is possible that Kom and I are approaching this matter at different 
levels, Kom at a detailed citta-by-citta level, and me at a more conventional 
level. My problem is with the notions that there is no experience that is not 
at least partly kammically induced, and that everything which happens to one 
is at least partly due to one's past volitional actions. My understanding 
from the suttas as well as from my own reasoning (less important) is that 
these notions are contrary to the Buddha's teachings. It may very well be, 
however, that these notions are not conventional consequences of the 
ultimate-level analysis presented by the Abhidhamma. This would please me 
greatly.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4789 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 11:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Thanks for the quick reply Howard,
I just woke up - went to our uni. shinwakai (beginning year
party) last night. Since I wrote my reply to you I read over the
rest of the correspondence between you and Kom.

 The Abhidhamma classifies cittas in different ways . As Kom
mentioned the 4 jatis of vipaka, akusala, kusala, and kirya.
Cittas are either one or the other. 

(We can talk about akusala or kusala vipaka but there is still
only the jati of vipaka. Whereas the jati of kusala is a javanna
citta as is the jati of akusala - not vipaka)

It is very helpful, necessary possibly, to learn more about the
different jatis directly. When there is painful feeling through
the bodysense that is vipaka - such a brief moment. But then
there are kiriya cittas and then a series of seven javanna
cittas which are either kusala or akusala. Often when there is
painful feeling through the bodysense the immediately folllowing
javanna cittas are akusala (aversion) but there can also be
kusala (if, for instance, there is patience with the pain or
direct insight into it).
On the quote from the sutta where the Buddha mentions that not
all we experience is kamma it may look like this is
contradicting the teaching about vipaka in the Abhidhamma. 
I would think it is not. There are far more suttas- just
consider the Dhammapada -or the 550 stories in the jataka where
the theme is  kamma and its results.
Still it does appear to contradict if we consider at the
conceptual level.If we take the case of someone stuffing
themselves with icecream and then experiencing painful feeling.
Is that the result of kamma? I think to an extent the painful
feelings are also conditioned by kamma but this  also shows that
other conditions are always needed for vipaka to arise. (kamma
can never be the sole condition for vipaka).
On this example my son can eat icecream until his stomach swells
while my daughter eats only a little and feels a bit ill. 
I don't have all the answers on this question of kamma. But I am
confident that the Abhidhamma is not wrong here. 
We can't know which kamma or when was a condition for any vipaka
(only a Buddha can know that). So it seems hard to prove such a
difficult matter. However studying the different jatis (I mean
directly) does help to illuminate the different characteristics
of cittas (as well as there similarities) and so break down the
situation more precisely. 
robert
 




--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
> In a message dated 4/20/01 9:45:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Robert Kirkpatrick writes:
> 
> 
> > Dear Howard,
> > I'm not sure where all your objections are coming from here.
> kom
> > has explained that kamma is not the only condition, although
> it
> > is one of the conditions, for vipaka citta - and that in a
> > series of cittas there are many other cittas that are not
> > conditioned by kamma.
> > 
> > You see the Abhidhamma is vital to understand the world. We
> tend
> > to live in concept and story. But the Abhidhamma, when it is
> > applied in the moment shows us the world as it really is -
> only
> > namas and rupas.
> > Just a simple example from the commentary to the Patthana.
> > If one has a warm, soft dogshit in his hand and looks at it
> you
> > might think this is all bad. However, the direct perception
> of
> > this through the bodydoor is kusala kamma vipaka (good
> resultant
> > through the body sense because of the warmth and softness).
> > Through the eyesense it is akusla kamma vipaka - because of
> the
> > ugliness. Through the nose door - again akusala kamma
> vipaka(bad
> > resultant) because of the bad odour. All of these dhammas
> are
> > alternating (and so many others that are not
> vipaka-resultant)so
> > rapidly and if one still thinks in terms of concepts rather
> than
> > studying and experiencing paramattha dhammas as they appear
> > through the 6doors there can never be deep understanding of
> > these matters. 
> > Nowhere does the abhidhamma indicate that all vinnana has
> kammic
> > conditions.
> > robert
> > W
> > 
> ===============================
>        It is possible that Kom and I are approaching this
> matter at different 
> levels, Kom at a detailed citta-by-citta level, and me at a
> more conventional 
> level. My problem is with the notions that there is no
> experience that is not 
> at least partly kammically induced, and that everything which
> happens to one 
> is at least partly due to one's past volitional actions. My
> understanding 
> from the suttas as well as from my own reasoning (less
> important) is that 
> these notions are contrary to the Buddha's teachings. It may
> very well be, 
> however, that these notions are not conventional consequences
> of the 
> ultimate-level analysis presented by the Abhidhamma. This
> would please me 
> greatly.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                



 
4790 From: Num 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi Kom,


> The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a serie of 14
> different cittas including:
> 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana
> 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing)
> 3) Sampatichanna
> 4) Santirana
> 5) Votatappana
> 6) Javana
> 7) Javana
> 8) Javana
> 9) Javana
> 10) Javana
> 11) Javana
> 12) Javana
> 13) Tatalampanna
> 14) Tatalampanna
> 

Just curious, why you start at pancadvaravajjana-citta.  The 3 bhavaga-cittas 
are also vipaka in nature as well, right?

 Num



 
4791 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 0:10pm
Subject: Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Thanks for revealing your "secret desires"  Alex. One of the bad
things of even mentioning vipassana nanas - and I think marlon
pointed this out too- is that it does condition lobha.
The reason we need to explain a little about is so that we don't
mistake some trivial undersatnding or strange experience for
deep insight. 
It can really distort the practice if we have this "goal" in
mind. Then we'll be looking for special experiences - and all
with lobha. It just shifts attention form the present moment.
It took me many years before I realised that that is just what I
was doing. I couldn't see that lobha is lobha - even for
nibbana. It was a layer of sticky delusion.
robert

--- Alex T wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
>    Do you know that you just gave me a good dose of lobha?  It
> seems 
> we are studying vipassana with patience waiting for panna to
> be 
> developed, aren't we?  Well, may I ask a very ... stupid
> question:  
> How long shall I reach the advanced stages?
> 
>    Just teasing!  I know that I have to be patient, like the
> one with 
> a deformed foot praying to God constantly for a good one (in
> the 
> novel Of Human Bondage (?)).  He might have to wait for a long
> time 
> before God gave him any answer.
> 
>    Thank you for the information.
> 
> With Appreciation,
> Alex
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > 
> > However, this is not the
> > same as the advanced stages of vipassana where the dhammas
> are
> > directly  seen as anatta - that can only come after the
> stage of
> > seperating nama from rupa.
> > robert
> 



 
4792 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 0:40pm
Subject: votthapana-citta

 
  Hi all,

The following is taken from

Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,  
by NYANATILOKA 

votthapana-citta: 'determining consciousness', is that mindelement 
(functioning independently of karma; s. Tab. I, 70). which in the 
process of sense-perception performs the function of determining the 
sense-object. It is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-
kicca, q.v.).

My understanding is that this citta is the first in the series that 
is not karmically determined. Surely this votthapanna-citta has a 
place in all the recent discussions about "dealing with akusala".

Regards


Herman

 
4793 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 8:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 4/20/01 10:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> Dear Erik,
> The abhidhamma nowhere says that falling bricks, the wind, trees
> falling down etc. etc. is due to kamma.
> The Abhidhamma does say that the brief moment of vipaka through
> the bodysense is partly conditioned by past kamma. 
> robert
> 
============================
       You put this wonderfully! It, indeed, puts matters into a different 
perspective for me. Thanks!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4794 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 1:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Howard,
I have to say again (as I said on d-l): you are one of those (a
rare species) who really considers what others say. 
I think I will send some of this thread to Nina van Gorkom for
her comments. As I said I don't have all the answers. And
perhaps, sarah: could you bring it up with Khun sujin while you
are in bangkok? It is a hard one.
robert
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
> In a message dated 4/20/01 10:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Robert Kirkpatrick writes:
> 
> 
> > Dear Erik,
> > The abhidhamma nowhere says that falling bricks, the wind,
> trees
> > falling down etc. etc. is due to kamma.
> > The Abhidhamma does say that the brief moment of vipaka
> through
> > the bodysense is partly conditioned by past kamma. 
> > robert
> > 
> ============================
>        You put this wonderfully! It, indeed, puts matters into
> a different 
> perspective for me. Thanks!
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                



 
4795 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 2:52pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Num)

 
  Dear Num,

I started there because it is the first citta that cognizes
the aramana through the dvara.  The 3 bhavaga-cittas prior
to the Panca-dvara-vajjana citta do not cognize the same
aramana as the Panca-dvara-vajjana, and only serves
(conventionally) to fill out the 17 moments of citta that
the rupa lasts.

The interesting tidbit (outside of this explanation) is that
for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it
through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14 moments (if the
process is complete).  In the Brahma planes, they don't have
the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12
moments.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Num [mailto:Num]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)
>
>
> Hi Kom,
>
>
> > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a
> serie of 14
> > different cittas including:
> > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana
> > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing)
> > 3) Sampatichanna
> > 4) Santirana
> > 5) Votatappana
> > 6) Javana
> > 7) Javana
> > 8) Javana
> > 9) Javana
> > 10) Javana
> > 11) Javana
> > 12) Javana
> > 13) Tatalampanna
> > 14) Tatalampanna
> >
>
> Just curious, why you start at
> pancadvaravajjana-citta.  The 3 bhavaga-cittas
> are also vipaka in nature as well, right?
>
>  Num

 
4796 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 5:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again?

 
  Mike

I hope you don’t mind my butting in here, since I am
the one who has been making all the provocative
statements about ‘dealing with’ akusala.

> Here's a passage from
>
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm:
> 
> Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with blemish,
> who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish
> in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to
> dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled
> mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a
> bronze
> bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered
> with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food
> in
> it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust
> and
> as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more
> dusty
> and stained. In the same way this person with
> blemish,
> who would not know, as it really is, there is
> blemish
> in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to
> dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled
> mind with greed, hate and delusion. 
> 
> This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing
> with
> akusala'.  I wonder how this passage can be
> reconciled
> with the frequently stressed impossibility of
> control?

I think others may also be wondering whether this
passage supports the view that the Buddha encouraged
us to ‘deal with’ akusala as and when it arises.

The answer depends on what is meant in the sutta by
‘making effort to dispel blemishes’.  Akusala can be
temporarily subdued by kusala that is of the level of
samatha bhavana, or it can be eradicated by the panna
that is developed in vipassana bhavana.

However, the temporary subduing of kilesa does not
lead to a person’s mind at time of death being be free
of kilesa, since the tendency to the kilesa remains. 
So my guess is that this is a reference to the
development of vipassana bhavana which when fully
developed finally eradicates kilesa.

It should I think be noted that in both instances, the
achievement (temporary subduing, final eradication)
comes only with the development of the appropriate
form of bhavana to the highest level.  Expectations
should not be set too high!

Jon


 
4797 From: craig garner   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 5:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Dear All,
             Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is cause
and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because of some cause and that wind
becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and this tree then falls on a
wall causing a brick to fall. We all share this wordily kamma for this
planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we choose to be reborn here
it is our kamma to live in the time and space with all its apparent major
and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or directly aimed at us(?)

With love and acceptance Craig.

 


 
4799 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 8:47pm
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  --- "craig garner"  wrote:
> Dear All,
>              Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is 
cause
> and effect.

Actually, kamma is synonymous with cetana, or volition. Kamma is 
not "cause and effect." Kamma is the act of willing something 
volitionally. In so doing you create "sankharas" (in the 
sankharakhanda) that ripen at some point as the experience of vipaka, 
which arises through the vipakacittas.

The heart of this question is whether or not this vipaka from willed 
intention defines 100% of experience or just part of experience. This 
is no small point. Some peoples' interpretations say everything is 
related back to kamma-vipaka. It appears (but Robert said otherwise) 
that the classification of vipakacittas is that they're not just 
there to experience vipaka, but can also experience the effects of 
other conditions apart from vipaka. This leads me to wonder why they 
are specifically called vipakacittas.

I consider this question important because of the apparently 
contradictory things I've seen in my own experience, in which 
sometimes it appears as if everything really is the result of kamma, 
and at other times things appear to happen at complete random, 
without any connection to previous deeds. I have seen what I would 
call "miracles," and seen other stuff that appears to be the opposite 
of "miraculous" and is just unaccountable nonsense having no apparent 
connection to any past deeds in this lifetime.

There is another reason for raising this. My own Madhyamika-
Prasangika school has as one of its tenets the idea that there is 
nothing in present experience that is arising apart from kamma 
because there is not a single facet of experience that is not arising 
as in 100% dependence on ripening sankharas. There would be no 
perception without these sankharas ripening in a continuous stream 
and creating our reality moment to moment. Also, that there is no 
fundamental difference between subject and object, that the 
appearance of "subject" is really a creation in our own sankhara-
conditioned minds, and this creation is the direct result of ripening 
vipaka.

 
4800 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: Welcome, Craig!

 
  >              Hello  I am Craig and I am very interested in all of 
Buddhas
> teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain, Originaly from 
Sydney. I am
> more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this sangha, and 
learn as
> much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to all.
>                                                Craig

Dear Craig,

Welcome to the discussions, you have come to the right place if you 
want to discuss the dhamma!  I have learned a lot from the discussions 
here and hope you will also find it useful.  I am also webmaster of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> where we have several articles and books 
from the beginning levels to advanced ones which might interest you if 
you have time, as well as some interesting short Q&As some of which 
are taken from certain posts from this list.  Please take a look and 
tell us what you think.

Where are you living in Spain?  Anywhere near Granada? Valencia? 
Cordoba?  While I was studying in Geneva, Switzerland, I went to Spain 
for summer courses twice, loved it!  One of my favorite countries!!!

Looking forward to further discussions,

Amara

 
4801 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Dear Alex and Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex.

Would you agree that one of the advantages of
vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a
perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa?  Or is
this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?!

mike




 
4802 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:00am
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Num)

 
  > I started there because it is the first citta that cognizes
> the aramana through the dvara.  The 3 bhavaga-cittas prior
> to the Panca-dvara-vajjana citta do not cognize the same
> aramana as the Panca-dvara-vajjana, and only serves
> (conventionally) to fill out the 17 moments of citta that
> the rupa lasts.

Dear KK,

This time I think K. Num is right to question you since according to 
KS in Citta Ch. 3 of 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced 
section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> a passage says:

For example, when taste arises in contact with the jivhappasada and 
the bhavanga, as the atita-bhavanga, falls away, the bhavanga-jalana 
arises in continuation and falls away, and the bhavangupaccheda 
follows suit, then the panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises to perceive or 
know the arammana that is in contact with the jivha-dvara but still 
does not experience the taste yet.  Parallel to the moment we know a 
visitor is at the door but cannot yet see the guest thus we do not 
know who it is.  We only know that there is someone there.  

(end quote)

Which means that they are not there just to fill up the 17 instants 
but are the actual moments after the initial contact, but because of 
the extreme speed the vithi citta can't begin their process 
immediately.  It is the tadalambana that is there to fill up the 17 
instants, if I remember correctly, in the case that the arammana has 
not fallen away already.

> The interesting tidbit (outside of this explanation) is that
> for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it
> through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14 moments (if the
> process is complete).  In the Brahma planes, they don't have
> the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12
> moments.
> 
> kom

This is an interesting detail, I don't think I've heard that before, 
why is that, can you explain?  Thanks in advance,

AA

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Num [mailto:Num]
> > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:04 PM
> > To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013098152150172
> > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)
> >
> >
> > Hi Kom,
> >
> >
> > > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a
> > serie of 14
> > > different cittas including:
> > > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana
> > > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing)
> > > 3) Sampatichanna
> > > 4) Santirana
> > > 5) Votatappana
> > > 6) Javana
> > > 7) Javana
> > > 8) Javana
> > > 9) Javana
> > > 10) Javana
> > > 11) Javana
> > > 12) Javana
> > > 13) Tatalampanna
> > > 14) Tatalampanna
> > >
> >
> > Just curious, why you start at
> > pancadvaravajjana-citta.  The 3 bhavaga-cittas
> > are also vipaka in nature as well, right?
> >
> >  Num

 
4803 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:08am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig)

 
  Dear Craig,

Welcome, Craig!  I hope you take something in this board
away that is useful to you.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: craig garner 
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)
>
>
> Dear All,
>              Excuse my ignorance of all the
> scriptures but Kamma is cause
> and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because
> of some cause and that wind
> becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and
> this tree then falls on a
> wall causing a brick to fall.

It is true that all rupas (physical, unknowing
characteristics) arise because of conditions.  However,
there are plenty of rupas that are not conditioned by Kamma.
The wind blowing is not Kamma-conditioned, the tree falling
is not Kamma-conditioned.  If the tree falls on you, and you
feel the tree, the feeling of the tree falling on you is
partly kamma-conditioned.

> We all share this
> wordily kamma for this
> planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we
> choose to be reborn here

There are very few beings mentioned in the Tipitaka who can
choose to be reborn in a particular plane.  We are born here
because, for the most part, of our kamma.

> it is our kamma to live in the time and space
> with all its apparent major
> and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or
> directly aimed at us(?)

Kamma is not aimed.  We accumulate conditions (kamma) that
may give future results.  When the other conditions ripen,
Kamma can give the result.

kom

 
4804 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:40am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Num)

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 

> Which means that they are not there just to fill
> up the 17 instants
> but are the actual moments after the initial
> contact, but because of
> the extreme speed the vithi citta can't begin
> their process
> immediately.

I certainly like your explanation better than mine.  Speed,
rather than just filling...

> > The interesting tidbit (outside of this
> explanation) is that
> > for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it
> > through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14
> moments (if the
> > process is complete).  In the Brahma planes,
> they don't have
> > the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12
> > moments.
> >
> > kom
>
> This is an interesting detail, I don't think I've
> heard that before,
> why is that, can you explain?  Thanks in advance,

The explanation went like this (I didn't come up with this)
is that in the Brahma planes, the beings there, because of
their Jhana accumulation, are less inclined to consume the
5-sense-objects and therefore, the last 2 cittas in the
panca-vithi don't arise to consume the rest of the
rupa-life.  You may also be interested to know that, through
the mano-dvara-vithi, if the aramana is pannatti, the
tatalamppana cittas also don't arise, even for us the
humans.

There are many "interesting" details about Tatalamppana
cittas.  It's "interesting" because a lot (most?) of us
won't ever experience it in this life time, and are mostly
beyond being provable for us.  That's why Tan Ajan Sujin
rarely goes into such a detailed explanation.

kom

 
4805 From: craig garner   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig)

 
  Thank you all for your replys, I will have to learn all the pali text so
that I can join in properly, if not I fear I may offend with my ignorance.
Just one small question, if kamma is willfull ,does  that means we have a
choice?    A seed blown in the wind  was made by a plant´s will to
reproduce. What land it lands in if it does? it can not govern or determine,
but if it does land and grow it will be a plant.Ha ha         love to all
and thanks for your help!Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: Kom Tukovinit 
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig)


> Dear Craig,
>
> Welcome, Craig!  I hope you take something in this board
> away that is useful to you.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: craig garner 
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> >              Excuse my ignorance of all the
> > scriptures but Kamma is cause
> > and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because
> > of some cause and that wind
> > becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and
> > this tree then falls on a
> > wall causing a brick to fall.
>
> It is true that all rupas (physical, unknowing
> characteristics) arise because of conditions.  However,
> there are plenty of rupas that are not conditioned by Kamma.
> The wind blowing is not Kamma-conditioned, the tree falling
> is not Kamma-conditioned.  If the tree falls on you, and you
> feel the tree, the feeling of the tree falling on you is
> partly kamma-conditioned.
>
> > We all share this
> > wordily kamma for this
> > planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we
> > choose to be reborn here
>
> There are very few beings mentioned in the Tipitaka who can
> choose to be reborn in a particular plane.  We are born here
> because, for the most part, of our kamma.
>
> > it is our kamma to live in the time and space
> > with all its apparent major
> > and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or
> > directly aimed at us(?)
>
> Kamma is not aimed.  We accumulate conditions (kamma) that
> may give future results.  When the other conditions ripen,
> Kamma can give the result.
>
> kom
>


 
4806 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:57am
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Num)

 
  > The explanation went like this (I didn't come up with this)
> is that in the Brahma planes, the beings there, because of
> their Jhana accumulation, are less inclined to consume the
> 5-sense-objects and therefore, the last 2 cittas in the
> panca-vithi don't arise to consume the rest of the
> rupa-life.  You may also be interested to know that, through
> the mano-dvara-vithi, if the aramana is pannatti, the
> tatalamppana cittas also don't arise, even for us the
> humans.

Dear KK,

Thanks for the details, I had heard of the latter part too, but that 
was a good reminder!

> There are many "interesting" details about Tatalamppana
> cittas.  It's "interesting" because a lot (most?) of us
> won't ever experience it in this life time, and are mostly
> beyond being provable for us.  That's why Tan Ajan Sujin
> rarely goes into such a detailed explanation.
> 
> kom

More likely she did and I forgot; but of course I have not heard all 
of her teachings myself.  Thanks again!

Amara

 
4807 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again?

 
  Dear Joh,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Mike
> 
> I hope you don’t mind my butting in here, since I am
> the one who has been making all the provocative
> statements about ‘dealing with’ akusala.

Very glad you did.

> > Here's a passage from
> >
>
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm:
> > 
> > Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with
> blemish,
> > who does not know, as it really is, there is
> blemish
> > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort
> to
> > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a
> defiled
> > mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a
> > bronze
> > bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered
> > with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food
> > in
> > it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust
> > and
> > as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more
> > dusty
> > and stained. In the same way this person with
> > blemish,
> > who would not know, as it really is, there is
> > blemish
> > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort
> to
> > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a
> defiled
> > mind with greed, hate and delusion. 
> > 
> > This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing
> > with
> > akusala'.  I wonder how this passage can be
> > reconciled
> > with the frequently stressed impossibility of
> > control?
> 
> I think others may also be wondering whether this
> passage supports the view that the Buddha encouraged
> us to ‘deal with’ akusala as and when it arises.
> 
> The answer depends on what is meant in the sutta by
> ‘making effort to dispel blemishes’.  Akusala can be
> temporarily subdued by kusala that is of the level
> of
> samatha bhavana, or it can be eradicated by the
> panna
> that is developed in vipassana bhavana.

Surely--I certainly do accept this as a very basic
working hypothesis.
 
> However, the temporary subduing of kilesa does not
> lead to a person’s mind at time of death being be
> free
> of kilesa, since the tendency to the kilesa remains.

Right...

> So my guess is that this is a reference to the
> development of vipassana bhavana which when fully
> developed finally eradicates kilesa.

That's what I think it means, too.  My question was in
regard to the impossibility of control, or choosing to
act (due to anatta and the brevity of dhammas).
 
> It should I think be noted that in both instances,
> the
> achievement (temporary subduing, final eradication)
> comes only with the development of the appropriate
> form of bhavana to the highest level.  Expectations
> should not be set too high!

Understood.  (By the way, I don't think this is true
of temporary subduing).  But if 'we' can't control the
dhamma (citta, cetasika or whatever) of the present
moment, or choose to act in one way or another, how is
'development of the appropriate form of bhavana to the
highest level' to be accomplished?  How can 'we' 'make
an effort to dispel blemishes', or any other effort
for that matter?  Are vipassanaa and effort mutually
exclusive?

Thanks in advance,

mike

[bhaavanaa (f.) increase; development by means of
thought; meditation.]



 
4808 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members

 
  Dear Sarah

You must know that I keep regularly a diary that could be a very good source 
of material for a future book indeed.
The subjects are quite fascinating.
If I survive my predicaments, I will give it a try (if you promise me to 
correct the English grammar and ortograph ;-)
For now more than enough if I stay afloat dear friend.

Love
Cybele

>>
>Dear Cybele,
>
>>
>So hope you get over your sickness. Perhaps we can
>help you with a 'bestseller' to pay off your expenses.
>Amara and I are already helping another member do the
>same. Here are some suggestions for yours:
>
>THE DYNAMIC AND PASSIONATE MEDITATOR
>
>Ch1- Life as Statue or Mummy is not for me!
>
>Ch2- Thawing out the Frozen AngloSaxon List Members
>
>ch3- Chauvanist males with Warm Hearts
>
>Ch4- Abhidhamma takes a New Turn in my life
>
>Ch5- Meetings with the wierd and wonderful List
>Friends
>
>Ch6- Applying the Teachings to Close Encounters
>
>Ch7- My Brains on a Golden Platter
>
>Ch8- Sorting the Mess and Paying the Bills with a big
>smile ;-)))
>
>That's it for now. When you've finished Ch8, I'll add
>more! I need to look at some of the more serious posts
>now!
>
>I'll check with Joe to see if he's in Bkk when we are
>and see if he needs a warm-hearted investigator for
>research in some exotic location!
>
>Take Care, Cybele,
>Sarah
>


 
 
4809 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 3:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi, Erik (and Craig, and all) -

In a message dated 4/21/01 8:49:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Erik writes:


> --- "craig garner"  wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >              Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is 
> cause
> > and effect.
> 
> Actually, kamma is synonymous with cetana, or volition. Kamma is 
> not "cause and effect." Kamma is the act of willing something 
> volitionally. In so doing you create "sankharas" (in the 
> sankharakhanda) that ripen at some point as the experience of vipaka, 
> which arises through the vipakacittas.
> 
> The heart of this question is whether or not this vipaka from willed 
> intention defines 100% of experience or just part of experience. This 
> is no small point. Some peoples' interpretations say everything is 
> related back to kamma-vipaka. It appears (but Robert said otherwise) 
> that the classification of vipakacittas is that they're not just 
> there to experience vipaka, but can also experience the effects of 
> other conditions apart from vipaka. This leads me to wonder why they 
> are specifically called vipakacittas.
> 
> I consider this question important because of the apparently 
> contradictory things I've seen in my own experience, in which 
> sometimes it appears as if everything really is the result of kamma, 
> and at other times things appear to happen at complete random, 
> without any connection to previous deeds. I have seen what I would 
> call "miracles," and seen other stuff that appears to be the opposite 
> of "miraculous" and is just unaccountable nonsense having no apparent 
> connection to any past deeds in this lifetime.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       In a sense, I agree that all experience is the result of kamma. What I 
contend is that that not all of one's experience is due to one's *own* kamma, 
except in a very general sense. My take on things is a phenomenological one. 
To me, all that there "is" is what is experienced or experienceable - in the 
sense of conditionality: Should this be (caused to be) experienced, then that 
will be experienced. One's own kamma conditions the realm of experience into 
which one is born. But the nature of any realm of experience is that it is a 
shared, intersubjective realm, created in a complex manner by the 
interactions of the volitional actions of (at least) all those sentient 
beings associated with that realm. So I do agree that ultimately, all that 
one experiences falls back on kamma, but not completely on one's *own* kamma. 
The kamma of multitudes of beings is what determines the "shape" of the 
"world" in which they exist. But a brick falling on my head, to use a 
previous example, may or may not be completely independent of my own previous 
intentions and intentional actions, except for the fact that had my kamma 
been sufficiently different, I might not even have been in this realm at all. 
Our own kamma, compared to that of any other single individual, is probably 
the weightiest influence on the moment to moment details of our life as well 
as on the general "setting" of our life. But, on the whole, our own kamma is 
just a drop in the bucket of worldly cause and effect. As a very pedestrian 
example, it is not my previous deeds (except in a very minor way) that made 
Long Island, where I live, look the way it looks! ;-))
---------------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> There is another reason for raising this. My own Madhyamika-
> Prasangika school has as one of its tenets the idea that there is 
> nothing in present experience that is arising apart from kamma 
> because there is not a single facet of experience that is not arising 
> as in 100% dependence on ripening sankharas. There would be no 
> perception without these sankharas ripening in a continuous stream 
> and creating our reality moment to moment.
> 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Well, in a sense I agree with this view. Were it not for the ripening 
of kammic traces, we would have no perception of objects at all. And when all 
sankharas are uprooted, at the death of an arahant, then discernment becomes 
unmanifestive and there is no longer any "person", not even a liberated 
"person". There is just "that".
----------------------------------------------------------------
   > fundamental difference between subject and object, 
> that the 
> appearance of "subject" is really a creation in our own sankhara-
> conditioned minds, and this creation is the direct result of ripening 
> vipaka.
> 
> 
================================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4810 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Dear Mike,
Yep,  it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana. 
One good think about this type of craving (for stages of
insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning
about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and
also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily. 
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Alex and Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex.
> 
> Would you agree that one of the advantages of
> vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a
> perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa?  Or is
> this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?!
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 



 
4811 From: Antony 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Well done Robert that is fantastic, and I hope you can pass on my 
heartfelt thanks to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is a great 
thing, 'information about the Dhamma wants to be free'.

antony


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine),
> I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi
> confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the
> web.
> He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from
> Visuddhimagga on your 
> website." I'll let mary know this too.
> 
> And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great
> and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution:
> "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group.
> However, where 
> I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not
> even have
> mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a
> solar-energy
> system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far
> as I've
> advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice
> a week 
> to
> respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote
> 
> 
> robert
> 


 
4812 From: McCall 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  Dear Fellow Buddhists
I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web 
site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am 
very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully meant) 

As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!

For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India 
and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the preservation 
of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself.  I do have a little 
knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from 
BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
(Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider 
my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have a 
Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian 
mother), 

((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism to 
Buddhists.))

My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG
One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know of 
their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain organization like 
other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning the 
globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, very 
powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in India 
with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. They are 
a thriving business empire with very strong clan like attachment and 
very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not against 
their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the expense of 
often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a 
strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are overly 
passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious affairs. They 
tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity.
The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of Buddhism. 
You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation of 
dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up now, we 
condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify your own 
who have the vision to see. They must be rolling with laughter at the 
love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes a few 
stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so what's 
wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be 
annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and Sisters 
to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically wrong. 
I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day Buddhist. 
Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for 
societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, if we 
put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true Dhamma. 
This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, vicious, vile, 
evil, Mara, rabid dog  etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and provoking me 
is a futile waste of your time.  Speech and written words, are only 
guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted (sometimes by 
the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is actually a 
prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners know what 
I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste 
precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when  we all 
could have meditated. 

""A useful tip for the Month""
Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative ---
These benefits are only realized the next day----

 Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are always 
failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is HUMANLY 
(Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very sensitive 
on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled after 
posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego still 
present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try again 
before naming the site.


With Utmost Respect always
Buddha Dhamma Sangha
Marlon G McCall

 
4813 From: Chris 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:48am
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  --- McCall wrote:
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India 
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the 
preservation 
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. 
Marlon,
I am not familiar with the term Aggamaha - I presume it is a title.
Putting it in a Google Search brought up 38 references, most to 
different people.  To whom were you referring and what position does 
the person hold?
metta,
Chris

 
4814 From: nama rupa   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka?

Metta.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Antony>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:20 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line


> Well done Robert that is fantastic, and I hope you can pass on my
> heartfelt thanks to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is a great
> thing, 'information about the Dhamma wants to be free'.
> 
> antony
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> > Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine),
> > I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the
> > web.
> > He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from
> > Visuddhimagga on your
> > website." I'll let mary know this too.
> >
> > And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great
> > and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution:
> > "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group.
> > However, where
> > I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not
> > even have
> > mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a
> > solar-energy
> > system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far
> > as I've
> > advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice
> > a week
> > to
> > respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote
> >
> >
> > robert
> >
> 
>

 
4815 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear nama rupa (love the name),
Yes, he still lives in kandy.
robert
--- nama rupa  wrote:
> Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka?
> 
> Metta.
> 
> 


 
4816 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert and Marlon

 
  Dear Marlon,
Thanks for the note. 
You have an interesting way and that is good. I think Buddhists
often try to fit into a model of how they think they should be.
In the west this is sometimes  just a little on the wimpy side,
with perhaps a vegetarian flavour -( not that there is anything
wrong with that model.) But I think we should learn about our
real accumulations and learn to live in accordance with those -
hopefully developing insight as we go. I suspect you would be a
great companion in fun times and hard times - if you are around
Bangkok in early August lets meet?
In fact your disdain for the Nagas - of which jains aparently
developed from- was shared by at least some laymen in the
Buddhas time. There were 2 friends - one worshipped the Buddha
another the nagas. The naga follower kept trying to convert the
Buddhist. Finally the Buddhist invited the Nagas for lunch. he
had his servants dig trenches filled with shit and when the
nagas came had tricked them into falling in (his friend had said
they could read minds - and this proved they couldn't).
 
I'm not sure if you read the article by Matar, though, as he
takes a sutta from the Majjhima nikaya which shows the Buddha in
a favourable light compared to the Jain leader. It doesn't seem
that this is bad for Buddhism? The article gives a url  back to
www.accesstoinsight where many Buddhist suttas are kept. Any
jains reading it might become interested in Buddhism? 

I don't know how many Buddhists convert to Jainism but I think
it is not common in the west. I have yet to meet a Jain
personally - the note from Matar is the first contact I've ever
had. In india perhaps it is more serious so I bow to your
knowledge on this area.

In the texts there is a sutta that says the true Dhamma will
only start to die when a counterfeit Dhamma, under the name of
the triple gem, comes into being. It seems that this is the
greatest danger.
Another sutta:
Anguttara NikayaN, PTS Volume 3, Chapter 8, paragraph viii (88)
A.iii.90 
The Elder
Monks, possessed of five qualities, the way of an
elder monk is not to the advantage of many folk, is
not for the happiness of many folk, is not for the
good of many folk; it is to the harm and ill of devas
and men.  Of what five?
There is the elder, time-honoured and long gone forth;
well-known, renowned, with a great following of
householders and those gone forth; a receiver of the
requisites; the robes, alms, lodgings and medicaments
for sickness; who is learned, has a retentive and
well-stored mind, and those Dhammas, lovely in the
beginning...are by him fully understood in theory; but
he is a wrong viewer with perverted vision.  He turns
away many folk from Saddhamma and sets them in what is
not Saddhamma.  Thus though he be an elder,
time-honoured and long gone forth, through him they
fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be
well-known, renowned, with a great following of
householders and those gone forth, through him they
fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be
a receiver of the requisites...through him they fall
into the way of wrong views; though the elder be
learned and has a retentive and well-stored mind,
through him they fall into the way of wrong views.

Robert


--- McCall wrote:
> Dear Fellow Buddhists
> I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the
> Jains web 
> site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar.
> I am 
> very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully
> meant) 
> 
> As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!
> 
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in
> India 
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the
> preservation 
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself.  I do have a
> little 
> knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs
> from 
> BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
> (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I
> consider 
> my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I
> have a 
> Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and
> Indian 
> mother), 
> 
> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending
> Buddhism to 
> Buddhists.))
> 
> My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG
> One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know
> of 
> their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain
> organization like 
> other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning
> the 
> globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large,
> very 
> powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in
> India 
> with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India.
> They are 
> a thriving business empire with very strong clan like
> attachment and 
> very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not
> against 
> their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the
> expense of 
> often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a
> 
> strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are
> overly 
> passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious
> affairs. They 
> tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity.
> The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of
> Buddhism. 
> You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation
> of 
> dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up
> now, we 
> condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify
> your own 
> who have the vision to see. They must be rolling with laughter
> at the 
> love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes
> a few 
> stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so
> what's 
> wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be
> 
> annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and
> Sisters 
> to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically
> wrong. 
> I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day
> Buddhist. 
> Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for 
> societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental,
> if we 
> put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true
> Dhamma. 
> This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude,
> vicious, vile, 
> evil, Mara, rabid dog  etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and
> provoking me 
> is a futile waste of your time.  Speech and written words, are
> only 
> guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted
> (sometimes by 
> the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is
> actually a 
> prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners
> know what 
> I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste 
> precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when  we
> all 
> could have meditated. 
> 
> ""A useful tip for the Month""
> Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative ---
> These benefits are only realized the next day----
> 
>  Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are
> always 
> failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is
> HUMANLY 
> (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very
> sensitive 
> on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled
> after 
> posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego
> still 
> present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try
> again 
> before naming the site.
> 
> 
> With Utmost Respect always
> Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> Marlon G McCall
> 




 
4817 From: Alex T 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:09am
Subject: Re: Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Dear Robert and Mike,

   Thank you, Mike, for asking a good question.  And thank you, 
Robert, for the clear answer.

Alex

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> Yep,  it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana. 
> One good think about this type of craving (for stages of
> insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning
> about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and
> also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily. 
> robert
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Dear Alex and Robert,
> > 
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex.
> > 
> > Would you agree that one of the advantages of
> > vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a
> > perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa?  Or is
> > this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?!
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > 
> > 

 
4818 From: Alex T 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:23am
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  > ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism 
to 
> Buddhists.))
> 

   Dear Marlon,

   The above statement is ironic, isn't it?   :-)))

   Thank you for your protective spirit.  

Best regards,
Alex

 
4819 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)

 
  Hi, all -

       Just a slight clarification. In a message dated 4/21/01 7:30:13 PM 
Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes:


> And when all 
> sankharas are uprooted, at the death of an arahant, then discernment 
> becomes 
> unmanifestive and there is no longer any "person", not even a liberated 
> "person". There is just "that".
> 
===============================
       Here, where I say "person" I mean "conventional person". Whether 
sankharas or even defilements remain or not, there is no person at all in the 
*ultimate* sense.

With metta.
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4820 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  Dear Marlon,

Do you live in the real world, or in a world of words?


--- McCall wrote:
> Dear Fellow Buddhists

Who, what is a Buddhist? What qualifies me as a Buddhist? I might be 
on this list, but surely your mind is more discriminating than that?

> I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web 
> site

Who, what is a Jain? What qualifies them as Jains? If there is any 
overlap between a Jain and a Buddhist, what will you call them? Will 
you still find them deserving of your aversion?

 and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am 
> very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully 
meant) 
> 
> As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!

Things that are weak and feeble require protection.
Perhaps you see your Buddhism as being under threat. Time to 
reevaluate. Time to see.

> 
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India 
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the 
preservation 
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself.  I do have a little 
> knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from 
> BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
> (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider 
> my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have 
a 
> Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and 
Indian 
> mother), 
> 

If I said "Marlon McCall, good name for a basketball player" , this 
would be about as discriminating a statement as any statement you 
have made about these alleged "Jains".

> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism 
to 
> Buddhists.))

The wonderful reality is that you don't have to do anything.
And happily, neither do I. So I am going to stop. But I would 
encourage you to find a Jain, a really bad one if you dare, and hug 
him/her. And give them my best regards.


Herman

 
4821 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 4:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pitaka gurudom

 
  Joe

Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
well-written post.  I'm afraid I'm not much good at
theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
 pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
post).

--- Joe wrote: > Hi Jonothan et al
> 
> As usual I've been following this list very much as
> a lurker -- hey 
> I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> I do it for a 
> living after all! -- and this point about the
> pitakas being the 
> ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> examining beyond 
> the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> what works for me" 
> kind of dialog I often see here. 

I am not sure that there is much difference between
these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
concerned.  Both would claim that their practice is
based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
'ultimate authority'.  The difference is rather in the
understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka. 
The fact that there are these differences is not
surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
lives.

> At essence is the question "Can we say that the
> pitakas are 100% 
> infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and
> forgive me if I 
> misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only
> insofar as we verify 
> their contents through our own experience," and your
> response, 
> Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much room
> for individual 
> interpretation of Buddhadharma.

I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
applied to the pitakas.  Again, I would put the
question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.  Erik and I
would agree I'm sure that the teachings are verifiable
through one's own experience, and that the
understanding of realities is to be acquired through
he application of the teachings, not by mere academic
study of them.

> I've been studying, intermittently over the last 20
> years or so, the 
> history of the development of Buddhism in Asia as
> background for art 
> history research, and now that I know a bit more
> about this history, 
> e.g., how many different pitaka versions exist (the
> Tibetans and the 
> Chinese, for example, claiming to have 'lost'
> Sanskrit chapters , 
> etc), I've become almost fond of the rough spots we
> all seem to be 
> rubbing against, as a genre worthy of investigation
> in and of itself.
> 
> I'm not talking about one's personal experience of
> pitaka contents, 
> or that of one's venerable teachers, but rather the
> question of 
> whether there is anything we can conclusively say
> about the validity 
> of the generally accepted Pali canon (not to mention
> the widely 
> varying translations of the Kalama Sutta, for
> example, one sees). 

I do not believe that there can ever be any
independent, objective confirmation of the *validity*
of the pitakas, since the validity of the Buddha's
message can only be appreciated through understanding
developed in accordance with the teachings.

> This applies irrespective of how well you may know
> the Tripitaka, 
> e.g., how many verses you can quote, etc, or what
> epigraphic evidence 
> you might be able to present. How, in fact, do you
> know whether the 
> teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are valid?
> In answering this 
> question can you logically use the texts to justify
> the texts? If 
> not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there be
> an independent 
> judge of the fruits of your practice?

I don't believe so.

> The Sikhs had a lineage of nine great gurus, of whom
> the last 
> and 'final' one was, and still is, their set of holy
> books, the Guru 
> Granth Sahib. The latter have in essence become
> their eternal 
> teacher. 
> 
> It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for
> some Buddhists, 
> even where the latter insist they do not follow
> gurus. I'm not 
> suggesting that this is your personal stance, Jon,
> but it's one that 
> bubbles up from time to time on this discussion
> list. 

My own approach is to test any expression of view
against the Tipitaka.  To me, this is essential
because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
unreliable and therefore dangerous guide.  I don't
feel the need to make any apology for this approach
(nor are you suggesting that I should).  But the fact
is, the teaching on any particular point can be
exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.

> There are Christians and Muslims who similarly claim
> to derive all of 
> their faith directly from reading the Bible or the
> Koran. Many have 
> formed their own fundamentalist sects, each claiming
> to offer the 
> correct interpretation of the Book. Their
> interpretations often 
> differ, even contradict one another. Yet each says,
> very much as I 
> sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever you
> want about the 
> way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you
> don't understand it 
> the way we do, then you're not really following the
> Bible/Koran, 
> you're not really following Jesus
> Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.'

Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
example from the archives of anyone on this list
making a similar claim!  While it's true that some
people assert their views about the dhamma in a
dogmatic manner, it's unlikely that anyone on this
list would pay any attention to those views anyway.

> Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> place unwritten 
> dharma transmission  -- person to person
> transmission, as in Tibetan 
> or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> (those who follow 
> this or that living teacher) -- above written
> transmission, 
> especially when the latter can be complicated by
> differing 
> translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> sutras, Sanskrit vs 
> Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> undefined Pali 
> terms, etc. 

That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
than written transmission?

> Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> same Pali canon, 
> e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> come up with two 
> rather different interpretations.

Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
think. Wrong view abounds!  Access to and 'knowledge'
of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.

> Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> written or 
> spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> could argue that one 
> is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> but from 
> intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> tactical conundrum 
> for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> argue that the 
> Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> have the only 
> correct interpretation of it. 

The approach taken by most people in my experience is
that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
discussion.  I agree that there are times when
different views are robustly expressed, but this does
not seem a bad thing to me.

> If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> or set of truths, 
> one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> might be self-
> evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> can be understood 
> through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> this is a sort 
> of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> depend on 
> language and on a consensual understanding of
> language -- 
> a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> Chomsky. A logical 
> loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.

Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
- fits the truths of the dhamma.  The description that
comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
experienced, each person for themself.

> On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> Buddhadharma 
> goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> Tripitaka in fact 
> a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> or perhaps 
> innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> cracking the code, one 
> tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> is the language 
> a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> be accessed in 
> other ways? 
> 
> I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
a struggle!

 For me
> it goes back to a 
> much earlier discussion we got involved in (or was
> that Triple Gem? I 
> forget) about whether Buddhism can be considered
> truly 'scientific'. 

It wasn't this list, I believe.

> I'm not offering any resolutions myself (sorry!),
> but rather am 
> presenting the problem with the intention of finding
> a bridge across 
> the apparent gap between the logo and anti-logo
> stances. 
> 
> When the entanglements unravel, right view will
> arise. Until then 
> hearing all the possibilities and opinions is
> stimulating and often 
> challenging. 

Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
discussion.  I'm afraid my response does not do
justice to the work that has gone into it.

> Sorry if this is an over-long post, or if it covers
> ground already 
> well trampled. 
> 
> Looking forward to lurking behind further
> discussions, as always.
> from Chiang Mai, 
> 
> Joe

Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
and in grand style, too.  You are now truly in the big
league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!

Jon


 
4822 From: Antony 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: karma kamma calmer

 
  I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very 
interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be 
something much different than is actually useful.

i think in some of the posts important and useful statements were 
made. Good work. 

Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and work out 
your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how did I 
become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of the 
processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load.

I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable. 

antony

 
4823 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] karma kamma calmer

 
  Dear Antony,
Good points. We cannot know our past kamma; some people get very
concerned to know this and try different things. It stresses
them and leads nowhere. Or some are very worried about the
results of kamma that will come in the future - again an
imponderable which just leads to worry. 
As you said, it is by learning about the processes as they
happen now that doubts about kamma and vipaka (result) are
overcome. 
Then we forget the past and future and develop kusala (of
different types), confident that this is the best that can be
done.
Last time I was in bangkok Shin's little dog bit Betty. Khun
sujin immediately said "better to have the vipaka(result) now,
than in the future". This knowledge of kamma and vipaka is
exceedingly calming the more we realise it. It becomes easier to
accept any moment and learn from it. (of course, we all forget
quite often)
Even my chidren love to hear about it when they get hurt - as I
explain that if they are patient with pain they are making good
kamma now that leads to future happiness. And that the pain is
only vipaka- the result of past kamma.
robert
--- Antony wrote:
> I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very 
> interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be 
> something much different than is actually useful.
> 
> i think in some of the posts important and useful statements
> were 
> made. Good work. 
> 
> Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and
> work out 
> your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how
> did I 
> become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of
> the 
> processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load.
> 
> I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable. 
> 
> antony



 
4824 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:17pm
Subject: Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)

 
  I wrote to Nina van Gorkom about the recent thread on knowing
dosa and other akusala.
I showed her what I had written and she said it was basically OK
but she stressed how even when it seems we are aware of say
dosa(aversion) that this is still mixed up - with feeling, rupa,
citta and other cetasikas. It is like that in the beginning (my
level)and it is good to know this. It isn't wrong it is just the
way it is.

She wrote briefly:

"There cannot be  awareness of dosa, before the first stage of
insight,
knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When there is
dosa, we 
take
all realities together, as a whole. But there is citta, citta 
experiences
the object in the unwholesome way, there are cetasikas, dosa,
and 
unpleasant
feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas conditioned by
dosa, 
but,
it is very hard to distinguish between these realities, it is
most
intricate. This should not discourage us, it is understanding
which 
starts
to realize more of realities. We may not notice that there is an
idea 
of my
dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think with
understanding 
about
what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the moments of
thinking 
pass
immediately, there are so many of them.""endquote

robert




 
4825 From: McCall 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Marlon McCall to Robert, Herman Hoffman, Chris and ALL

 
  Dear Robert, 
Thankyou for your gentle ref : to Anguttara Nikaya the Elder
Very beautiful Sutta but I've always preferred to associate it with 
the time in Lord Buddhas's life when Devadatta after failing previous 
attempts, decided a new approach and that was to split the Sangha in 
two by asking the Buddha for the imposition of five stricter rules on 
all members of the Sangha :--
1.	The monks should live only in the forest.
2.	The monks should eat only alms-food.
3.	The monks should dress in robes made of rags they collected 
themselves.
4.	The monks should no longer sleep under a roof but under trees.
5.	The monks should be strict vegetarians.

and culminating in Devadatta managing to persuade 500 newly ordained 
monks from Vesali to join him and they followed him out to Gayasisa.

Robert, I assure you my goal is not to divide present day Buddhism in 
two by giving false doctrine, on the contrary my life's goal in 
Buddhism is stop further such false doctrines which are causing 
segregation in Buddhism and in fact re-unify all these myriad sects 
Back into the original Dhamma-vinaya as when the Lord Buddha was 
alive. I must not and will not fail. The consequences are dire. We 
have diversified way too much, in 2500 years, it is time for us to 
consolidate and reabsorb ourselves. Buddhism now, has too much of a 
cultural influence and dominance in its practice and henceforth  the 
implementation of Dhamma application tends to be culturally biased 
and warped to an extent. Some of you have mentioned pertaining""the 
false triple gem"" I think the time has already arrived. This topic 
is really to sensitive, just too much for a web posting so I will 
stop here.

Robert you mentioned Nagas (Naagas)
""In fact your disdain for the Nagas - of which jains aparently
developed from- was shared by at least some laymen in the
Buddhas time. There were 2 friends - one worshipped the Buddha
another the nagas. The naga follower kept trying to convert the
Buddhist.""

Robert historically speaking this is totally and absolutely false the 
Naagas were devoted Buddhists and this has been proven without a 
doubt (by K. Jamanadas) and others.The addition of the popular 
episode of Muchalinda's extraordinary way of protecting the Exalted 
One during the seven days of untimely rain was a direct result of 
Naagas influence to Buddhism. This is what I mean when I say cultural 
influences have distorted the True Dhamma, nobody now knows, the said 
word from the unsaid word.


Robert since you love Suttas try these two:-

""How to recognize authentic teachings""
"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to 
dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being 
fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-
aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not 
to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being 
unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely 
hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's 
instruction.'"
""Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53""
Gotami SuttaTo Gotami

""Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi""
Good friendship, in Buddhism, means considerably more than 
associating with people that one finds amenable and who share one's 
interests. It means in effect seeking out wise companions to whom one 
can look for guidance and instruction. The task of the noble friend 
is not only to provide companionship in the treading of the way. The 
truly wise and compassionate friend is one who, with understanding 
and sympathy of heart, is ready to criticize and admonish, to point 
out one's faults, to exhort and encourage, perceiving that the final 
end of such friendship is growth in the Dhamma. The Buddha succinctly 
expresses the proper response of a disciple to such a good friend in 
a verse of the Dhammapada: "If one finds a person who points out 
one's faults and who reproves one, one should follow such a wise and 
sagacious counselor as one would a guide to hidden treasure" (Dhp. 
76). 
""Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay26.html
With Utmost Respect always
Marlon

From: Herman
Dear Marlon,
Do you live in the real world, or in a world of words? Who, what is a 
Buddhist? What qualifies me as a Buddhist? I might be on this list, 
but surely your mind is more  discriminating than that? Who, what is 
a Jain? What qualifies them as Jains? If there is any overlap between 
a Jain and a Buddhist, what will you call them? Will you still find 
them deserving of your aversion? Things that are weak and feeble 
require protection.
Perhaps you see your Buddhism as being under threat. Time to 
reevaluate. Time to see.The wonderful reality is that you don't have 
to do anything. And happily, neither do I. So I am going to stop. But 
I would encourage you to find a Jain, a really bad one if you dare, 
and hug him/her. And give them my best regards.-Herman 

Mr HermanHoffman, 
(( consider yourself fortunate that I am replying to you this time ))
I always advocate, never to think out loud, it only shows the world 
your ignorance. It is better to have silence and contemplate with 
your mind, and not with your mouth.
The harsher you perceive my words are, the stronger you should take 
my advice.
((This time I will not let you get away with rubbish, next time I 
will let you live with it))
With respect always
Marlon

To CHRIS Chris
Hi Chris,
I am referring to Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar  from Kushinara (the 
place of Lord Buddhas Parinibbana) Paul has all the other Details-off 
web is easier.
With respect always
Marlon

Thank you, everyone its 6.30 pm now in Frankfurt and I have to leave 
for New York tomorrow early morning, I have to end it for today.
With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall
Frankfurt

 
4826 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:24pm
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  > Dear Fellow Buddhists
> I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web 
> site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am 
> very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully 
meant) 
> 
> As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!
> 
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India 
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the 
preservation 
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself.  I do have a little 
> knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from 
> BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
> (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider 
> my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have 
a 
> Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian 
> mother), 
> 
> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism 
to 
> Buddhists.))
> 
> My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG
> One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know of 
> their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain organization like 
> other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning the 
> globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, very 
> powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in India 
> with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. They 
are 
> a thriving business empire with very strong clan like attachment and 
> very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not against 
> their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the expense of 
> often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a 
> strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are overly 
> passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious affairs. 
They 
> tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity.
> The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of Buddhism. 
> You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation of 
> dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up now, we 
> condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify your own 
> who have the vision to see. 

Dear Marlon,

Perhaps you are right in telling us that the Jains intend to make 
their fame and fortune at Buddhist expense and it might even be that 
some Buddhists would contribute to their cause, but I must say that 
the choice is up to the individual.  In fact when the majority of the 
people were converted to Buddhism many other ascetics who depended on 
them for essentials to live were neglected and the Buddha was asked by 
some lay people if they should continue to give dana outside Buddhism, 
he said they should continue to do so, even if they might no longer 
wish to give them dana of the same quality as before.  Dana is dana 
since it is performed in order to attenuate our own clinging to 
objects as well, and our karuna in wishing others might benefit form 
things we could donate.  Of course the best dana is still dhamma dana 
so when the occasion arises we might try to explain to the Jain some 
of our supreme dhamma as well, such as when they write about Prince 
Abhaya whom he sent to test the Buddha:

Then Prince Abhaya went to Nigantha Nataputta and on arrival, having 
bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Nigantha 
Nataputta said to him, "Come, now, prince. Refute the words of the 
contemplative Gotama, and this admirable report about you will spread 
afar: 'The words of the contemplative Gotama -- so mighty, so powerful 
-- were refuted by Prince Abhaya!'" 

"But how, venerable sir, will I refute the words of the contemplative 
Gotama -- so mighty, so powerful?" 

"Come now, prince. Go to the contemplative Gotama and on arrival say 
this: 
'Venerable sir, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & 
aisagreeable to others?' If the contemplative Gotama, thus asked, 
answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & 
disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any 
difference between you, venerable sir, and run-of-the-mill people? For 
even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & 
disagreeable to others.' But if the contemplative Gotama, thus asked, 
answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & 
disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, venerable 
sir, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for 
destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an 
eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at 
those words of yours.' When the contemplative Gotama is asked this 
two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or 
spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut [1] were stuck in a man's 
throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the 
same way, when the contemplative Gotama is asked this two-pronged 
question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."

This is not to ask for information but to try trick him into saying 
things that could be proven false.  Such simple strategies did not 
confuse the Buddha in the least and made the prince declare himself a 
Buddhist as well, so in fact it must have been the person who sent him 
who would have loved to take back his plan as well as his follower in 
the end.  In fact even such intentions as showing the Buddha to be 
less intelligent than he turned against him, because he not only 
failed but lost a follower.  In fact if I remember correctly he 
finally lost his favorite or closest adept to the Buddha in the end, 
which made him vomit blood to death, but I am sure you are familiar 
with this detail, so wouldn't it seem that he was the one that choked, 
even if not on a ' two-horned chestnut' but his own anger and blood?

> They must be rolling with laughter at the 
> love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes a few 
> stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so what's 
> wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be 
> annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and Sisters 
> to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically wrong. 
> I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day 
Buddhist. 
> Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for 
> societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, if we 
>put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true Dhamma. 

Again I think the times are such that Buddhism is on the decline and 
those with better accumulations than we have since followed the 
Buddha's path far ahead of us.  Sometimes I have the feeling that we 
are trying to make 'the last flight out' as best we can, which is why 
we try to preserve and present the dhamma as best we know how, and the 
rest depends on the individual accumulations to find it.  And although 
it was predicted to be something of a lost cause in the long run, I 
think there are still many people who still benefit from the 
teachings.  After all the sasana was predicted to disappear in over 
2400 years, so this is not the time to give up in the studies and 
preservations as we are able.  The best method is still to study and 
apply the knowledge in daily life, in my opinion.

> This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, vicious, 
vile, 
> evil, Mara, rabid dog  etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and provoking me 
> is a futile waste of your time.  Speech and written words, are only 
> guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted (sometimes by 
> the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is actually a 
> prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners know what 
> I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste 
> precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when  we all 
> could have meditated. 

I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, 
rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps. 
 And anger according to the teachings hurt the person who has it more 
than others, which is why it is better to know that each person has 
his own kamma and like Nigantha, who was never punished on earth for 
his plotting the murder of Mahamoggalana, is now in the hell worlds 
whether we wish him harm of wish his sufferings to end.

> ""A useful tip for the Month""
> Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative ---
> These benefits are only realized the next day----
> 
>  Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are 
always 
> failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is HUMANLY 
> (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very sensitive 
> on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled after 
> posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego still 
> present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try again 
> before naming the site.

I must say it has happened to me also, whether someone intentionally 
pulled mine or not, that is their problem and the akusala citta is 
theirs alone.  Sometimes I think it is also the server at fault, but 
all technical things have glitches, I think, otherwise their free 
service has been of great benefit to me, I have learned a lot from the 
list and look forward to more correspondence with you as well,

Amara

 
4827 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Hi! Nama Rupa,

Just to say welcome to the discussions, 

Amara


--- "nama rupa"  wrote:
> Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka?
> 
> Metta.
> 

 
4828 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> One good think about this type of craving (for
> stages of
> insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before
> learning
> about Buddhism. 

Interesting point!

> Consequently if it is truly seen as
> lobha and
> also recognised as counterproductive it drops away
> easily. 

True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG
gone...

mike


 
4829 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer

 
  --- Antony wrote:
> I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very 
> interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be 
> something much different than is actually useful.
> 
> i think in some of the posts important and useful statements were 
> made. Good work. 
> 
> Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and work out 
> your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how did I 
> become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of the 
> processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load.
> 
> I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable. 
> 
> antony

Dear Antony,

I think he said to try to find the specific kamma to the specific 
vipaka, such as the seeing now, is imponderable, of all the kamma we 
have performed in the endless samsara.  But to know kamma through its 
operations is very useful knowledge indeed, each person should never 
blame anyone else or a god for what happens (or does not happen) to 
him.  In fact have you seen our very good article, 'Kamma, the Answer 
to Life' in the intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >?
It might answer many of your questions!!!

Enjoy,

Amara

 
4830 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  Dear KK,

I was reminded by someone that I owe an amendment for the statement 
below:

> 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to the 
> steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the 
object 
> in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous 
> streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the 
bhavanga 
> (life continuum).  

In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would 
interpose, would it?

Sorry for another careless mistake, everyone!

Amara

 
4831 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Dear Mike,
I think I should be more specific here. When I said "it drops
away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it also doesn't
tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense objects -
which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). I wasn't sure
if that was clear.
 All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly anyway -
'long gone'- and that is a good point. 

In fact, it  may rearise at anytime for all of us but it becomes
a little easier to detect the more it is seen as lobha and not
(samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look like). It is
good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us out of the
present moment. It is sort of a special one that sincere
buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya -sacca,
cause of dukkha).
This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka.
robert

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > One good think about this type of craving (for
> > stages of
> > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before
> > learning
> > about Buddhism. 
> 
> Interesting point!
> 
> > Consequently if it is truly seen as
> > lobha and
> > also recognised as counterproductive it drops away
> > easily. 
> 
> True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG
> gone...
> 
> mike
> 



 
4832 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> I think I should be more specific here. When I said
> "it drops
> away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it
> also doesn't
> tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense
> objects -
> which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). 

This concurs with my experience, too.

> I
> wasn't sure
> if that was clear.
>  All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly
> anyway -
> 'long gone'- and that is a good point. 
> 
> In fact, it  may rearise at anytime for all of us
> but it becomes
> a little easier to detect the more it is seen as
> lobha 

True--it does keep coming back but it has to sneak
back in and runs when recognized...The idea that
supplants it is usually 'the desire for progress is an
insurmountable obstacle to progress'.

> and not
> (samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look
> like). 

I used to think it was 'dhammachanda'--this notion had
been encouraged by someone, somewhere along the
line--but it surely did (still does sometimes)
condition effort--definitely of the 'wrong' variety.

> It is
> good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us
> out of the
> present moment. It is sort of a special one that
> sincere
> buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya
> -sacca,
> cause of dukkha).
> This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka.

I had the same thought.  I really should print those
out, put them up on my wall and read them every
morning...

mike


 
4833 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks both for your comments and for the Nina
quotation--all excellent and observably true.

mike


 
4834 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  Hi, Amara and Marlon -

In a message dated 4/22/01 9:25:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, 
> rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps. 
> 
==========================
       It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the same 
posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4835 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  > Hi, Amara and Marlon -

Hi! Howard!

> > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, 
> > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, 
perhaps. 
> > 
> ==========================
>        It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the 
same 
> posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech.

Wow! Really???  

Thanks for telling me! (as usual!)

By the way have you read the article on Kamma in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> ?  It's in the intermediate section, do 
tell us what you think,

Looking forward to your opinion,

Amara

 
4836 From: Indavati   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 0:27am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
interpose, would it?

Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means
that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
apanna

Indavati

 
4837 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 0:43am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
> 
> Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of 
bhavanga means
> that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has 
become
> apanna
> 
> Indavati


Hi and welcome, Indavati!

According to the Commentaries it is already so steadfast as to shut 
out the bhavanga, but the jhana is not yet attained, though.  It is 
the jhana citta that is of the apana level.

Good to hear from you, even if we don't agree!

Amara

 
4838 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 4/22/01 12:00:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> Hi! Howard!
> 
> > > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, 
> > > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, 
> perhaps. 
> > > 
> > ==========================
> >        It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the 
> same 
> > posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech.
> 
> Wow! Really???  
> 
> Thanks for telling me! (as usual!)
> 
> By the way have you read the article on Kamma in 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> ?  It's in the intermediate section, do 
> tell us what you think,
> 
> Looking forward to your opinion,
> 
> Amara
> 
======================================
       I assume you are referring to the following article:

Kamma 
The Answer to Life 
by Annyamanee Mallikamas 
translated by Amara-Varee 
(This article was first published in the  
Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University Journal,  
vol. 13, no. 2, May-August 2000.) 
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------
Howard:
       The article is quite lengthy. So as to get back to you promptly on it, 
I merely skimmed it. It seems like a good, quite thorough, and basically 
non-controversial article on the topic. I do have only one minor nit to pick 
with it. ;-)) At one point in the article the author writes the following: 
Buddhism is a matter of causes and results.  Nothing ever happens out of thin 
air, or by chance.  Everything that arises has conditions that cause it to.  
The Venerable Assaji manifested the dhamma to the Venerable Sariputta, saying 
that 'All dhamma arise from causes,' which means that all are born different 
because each has performed distinct causes or kamma.  The kamma already 
performed would be causes for various physiques, features, and complexions, 
with certain good or bad characters.  These very kamma already done are the 
causes of good or bad fortune, good or bad social status, happiness or 
unhappiness, and praise or blame.
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       My problem with the forgoing is that it seems to suggest an identity 
between kamma and causality. Certainly, all kamma are conditions, but the 
converse is false. This may not have been the writer's intention, and, in any 
case, is a minor point. Overall, this seems to be a very "correct" and 
usefully detailed article.
       On the other hand, perhaps you are referring to the (much shorter 
article) that I herewith quote in its entirety: 
Kamma 
By Sujin Boriharnwanaket 
>
    Generally, when something happens one would say it is the person's kamma, 
which, to be perfectly accurate, one should say it is the result of the 
person's kamma.  It would make us understand more clearly which instants are 
the results and which are the kamma.  If we shorten the saying to "It's the 
person's kamma," those who are unfamiliar with the cause of the result of 
realities might misunderstand and mistake the vipaka for the kamma.  When one 
has studied and understood about citta being the reality where kamma-kilesa 
accumulates vipaka, one would understand realities as they really are.  
Without the dvara: eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, which are ways 
of perceiving the aramana, there would be no vipaka-citta in daily life 
arising to receive the results of kamma.  The instant of seeing is a vipaka, 
the result of kamma.  Even though one was not in an accident, or has not 
received fortune and fame, the instant of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
knowing bodysense contact in ordinary daily life is already the result of 
past kamma already accomplished.  Vipaka-citta is not only when there is 
illness, fortune or poverty, fame or degradation.  And sati is able to be 
mindful of realities that are vipaka when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, 
tasting, and knowing bodysense contact in daily life.  Vipaka-citta would 
arise as results of accomplished kamma-paccaya.  It is hard to know which 
past kamma caused the vipaka-citta that arises through each dvara.  For 
example, which kamma resulted in the vipaka-citta that hears children playing 
football.  Kamma is very difficult to know because it is acinteyya, or 
something one should not ponder.  Accomplished kamma which is the cause in 
the past even though very long ago in samsara-vatta is still paccaya for 
vipaka-citta to arise.  Therefore, if anyone ventured to guess which kamma 
resulted in seeing a certain thing, and which kamma caused that certain 
hearing, one would never be free from ignorance and frustration because one 
is guessing at something that one does not have the panna at the level to 
really know. Yet the vipaka which is the result of kamma is now appearing 
through eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense.  

--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       This article is excellent, I think, especially given its brevity. As I 
think about it, it becomes clear to me that kamma vipaka must participate in 
any act of perception. Were it not for previous kamma, we would not continue 
in the present realm of experience or, in fact, in any realm of experience at 
all. And the effect of that kamma cannot be achieved by some magical means or 
by some hidden "power". The effect could only be achieved via kammic traces 
which are propagated from mind-state to mind-state and must be constant 
participants in our perceptual activity.
============================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
 
4839 From: nama rupa   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Thank you, it is nice to be "here" wherever here is at the moment. :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Amara 
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:27 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line


> 
> Hi! Nama Rupa,
> 
> Just to say welcome to the discussions,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 


 
4840 From: Dan 
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 6:48am
Subject: Re: Why mention vipassana nanas?

 
  > Yep,  it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana. 
> One good think about this type of craving (for stages of
> insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning
> about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and
> also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily. 

How true! But seeing it as lobha is not so easy... Or is it just me 
that got fooled for several years?

 
4841 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 7:10am
Subject: More Welcomes

 
  Dear nama rupa and Indavati,

A big welcome to dsg! it's always good to have people
joining with an obvious interest in abhidhamma too.
I'm sure many people besides myself would like to hear
a little more about how you got 'here' (talking
conventionally, nama rupa) and about your interest in
Buddhism. How you got your names would be interesting
too!

Best wishes,

Sarah

p.s. rem. to cut-off unwanted parts of posts when
repying! Thanks.

--- nama rupa  wrote: > Thank
you, it is nice to be "here" wherever here is
> at the moment. :-)



 
4842 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric

 
  Dear Howard,

I must have just missed your post last night!  Thank you so much for 
your astute analysis, as always, I really appreciate it very much.  

I have another short one by KS that I meant to upload, about kamma and 
vipaka, but I have been having problems with the server for two weeks 
now, at first we could not even open the pages and now we still cannot 
upload anything.  I hope they will have fixed it by this afternoon, 
though, and once it is up I will report, thank you again!

Also, for those of us who can read Thai, the foundation is opening its 
Thai website on May 7, (in two weeks) Visakha Day.  The Url:
<http://buddhadhamma.org/>, I haven't seen it myself, but they have an 
excellent team on it!

Enjoy,

Amara


> ======================================
>        I assume you are referring to the following article:
> 
> Kamma 
> The Answer to Life 
> by Annyamanee Mallikamas 
> translated by Amara-Varee 
> (This article was first published in the  
> Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University Journal,  
> vol. 13, no. 2, May-August 2000.) 
> >
> 
> 
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> 
> -----------
> Howard:
>        The article is quite lengthy. So as to get back to you 
promptly on it, 
> I merely skimmed it. It seems like a good, quite thorough, and 
basically 
> non-controversial article on the topic. I do have only one minor nit 
to pick 
> with it. ;-)) At one point in the article the author writes the 
following: 
> Buddhism is a matter of causes and results.  Nothing ever happens 
out of thin 
> air, or by chance.  Everything that arises has conditions that cause 
it to.  
> The Venerable Assaji manifested the dhamma to the Venerable 
Sariputta, saying 
> that 'All dhamma arise from causes,' which means that all are born 
different 
> because each has performed distinct causes or kamma.  The kamma 
already 
> performed would be causes for various physiques, features, and 
complexions, 
> with certain good or bad characters.  These very kamma already done 
are the 
> causes of good or bad fortune, good or bad social status, happiness 
or 
> unhappiness, and praise or blame.
>     
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        My problem with the forgoing is that it seems to suggest an 
identity 
> between kamma and causality. Certainly, all kamma are conditions, 
but the 
> converse is false. This may not have been the writer's intention, 
and, in any 
> case, is a minor point. Overall, this seems to be a very "correct" 
and 
> usefully detailed article.
>        On the other hand, perhaps you are referring to the (much 
shorter 
> article) that I herewith quote in its entirety: 
> Kamma 
> By Sujin Boriharnwanaket 
> >
>     Generally, when something happens one would say it is the 
person's kamma, 
> which, to be perfectly accurate, one should say it is the result of 
the 
> person's kamma.  It would make us understand more clearly which 
instants are 
> the results and which are the kamma.  If we shorten the saying to 
"It's the 
> person's kamma," those who are unfamiliar with the cause of the 
result of 
> realities might misunderstand and mistake the vipaka for the kamma. 
 When one 
> has studied and understood about citta being the reality where 
kamma-kilesa 
> accumulates vipaka, one would understand realities as they really 
are.  
> Without the dvara: eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, which 
are ways 
> of perceiving the aramana, there would be no vipaka-citta in daily 
life 
> arising to receive the results of kamma.  The instant of seeing is a 
vipaka, 
> the result of kamma.  Even though one was not in an accident, or has 
not 
> received fortune and fame, the instant of seeing, hearing, smelling, 
tasting, 
> knowing bodysense contact in ordinary daily life is already the 
result of 
> past kamma already accomplished.  Vipaka-citta is not only when 
there is 
> illness, fortune or poverty, fame or degradation.  And sati is able 
to be 
> mindful of realities that are vipaka when there is seeing, hearing, 
smelling, 
> tasting, and knowing bodysense contact in daily life.  Vipaka-citta 
would 
> arise as results of accomplished kamma-paccaya.  It is hard to know 
which 
> past kamma caused the vipaka-citta that arises through each dvara.  
For 
> example, which kamma resulted in the vipaka-citta that hears 
children playing 
> football.  Kamma is very difficult to know because it is acinteyya, 
or 
> something one should not ponder.  Accomplished kamma which is the 
cause in 
> the past even though very long ago in samsara-vatta is still paccaya 
for 
> vipaka-citta to arise.  Therefore, if anyone ventured to guess which 
kamma 
> resulted in seeing a certain thing, and which kamma caused that 
certain 
> hearing, one would never be free from ignorance and frustration 
because one 
> is guessing at something that one does not have the panna at the 
level to 
> really know. Yet the vipaka which is the result of kamma is now 
appearing 
> through eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense.  
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        This article is excellent, I think, especially given its 
brevity. As I 
> think about it, it becomes clear to me that kamma vipaka must 
participate in 
> any act of perception. Were it not for previous kamma, we would not 
continue 
> in the present realm of experience or, in fact, in any realm of 
experience at 
> all. And the effect of that kamma cannot be achieved by some magical 
means or 
> by some hidden "power". The effect could only be achieved via kammic 
traces 
> which are propagated from mind-state to mind-state and must be 
constant 
> participants in our perceptual activity.
> ============================
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          

 
4843 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  --- <> wrote: 
> > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:23:49 +0800
> Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
> 
> 
> 
> May all Dhamma Friends be well and happy
> 
> Just picked up this egroups from the net.... thought
> might be a good idea to be
> in touch with the Dhamma. I am a buddhist living in
> Penang, Malaysia and I
> follow the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. Other than
> that... what else should I
> say but...
> 
> Brothers and Sisters of the Dhamma
> May all of you be well and happy always
> 
> Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu !
> 
> 
Dear Chai,

I'm just forwarding yr message from the dsg moderator
a/c where it somehow landed!

Glad you've found us..hope you find plenty of interest
and use. Pls ask questions and share your comments and
views and experience with us!

Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot
of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially
in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written
by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads
them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net
now? 

Look f/w to more contact,

Sarah

p.s Rob & Kom & Howard & others, I'm really behind at
the moment but from what I could see, the kamma thread
has been going really well.....of course if there are
any untidy ends, I'll happily bring them up w/K.S.




 
4844 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Welcome to the group, Chai!

Amara


> > Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > May all Dhamma Friends be well and happy
> > 
> > Just picked up this egroups from the net.... thought
> > might be a good idea to be
> > in touch with the Dhamma. I am a buddhist living in
> > Penang, Malaysia and I
> > follow the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. Other than
> > that... what else should I
> > say but...
> > 
> > Brothers and Sisters of the Dhamma
> > May all of you be well and happy always
> > 
> > Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu !
> > 
> > 
> Dear Chai,
> 
> I'm just forwarding yr message from the dsg moderator
> a/c where it somehow landed!
> 
> Glad you've found us..hope you find plenty of interest
> and use. Pls ask questions and share your comments and
> views and experience with us!
> 
> Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot
> of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially
> in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written
> by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads
> them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net
> now? 
> 
> Look f/w to more contact,
> 
> Sarah
> 
> p.s Rob & Kom & Howard & others, I'm really behind at
> the moment but from what I could see, the kamma thread
> has been going really well.....of course if there are
> any untidy ends, I'll happily bring them up w/K.S.
> 
> 
> 

 
4845 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:33pm
Subject: New 'Word' page

 
  Dear Howard and dhamma friends,

I was finally able to upload to <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> today!!! 
Have added a new page to the section 'A Few Words', entitled 'Kamma 
and Vipaka', please take a look and see if you find this one useful, I 
had wanted to upload it days ago!

And have added the information that the free book is temporarily out 
of stock, Rob, please check to see if it's OK.

And Des, thanks for the correction for the Abhidhamma Chapter 22, it 
was a typo, now fixed, I hope!

Thank you everyone, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site as much 
as we enjoy presenting it to you,

Amara

 
4846 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 0:41am
Subject: Re: New 'Word' page

 
  Dear friends,

I just checked the site out before signing off, it appears that our 
server is having problems again, I will have to call them tomorrow.  
Sorry for the note below,

A.



> Dear Howard and dhamma friends,
> 
> I was finally able to upload to <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 
today!!! 
> Have added a new page to the section 'A Few Words', entitled 'Kamma 
> and Vipaka', please take a look and see if you find this one useful, 
I 
> had wanted to upload it days ago!
> 
> And have added the information that the free book is temporarily out 
> of stock, Rob, please check to see if it's OK.
> 
> And Des, thanks for the correction for the Abhidhamma Chapter 22, it 
> was a typo, now fixed, I hope!
> 
> Thank you everyone, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site as 
much 
> as we enjoy presenting it to you,
> 
> Amara

 
4847 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:00am
Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick > sujin immediately 
said "better to have the vipaka(result) now,
> than in the future". 

Did she explain why this is so?

Thanks.

kom

 
4848 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:11am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to 
the 
> > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the 
> object 
> > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous 
> > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the 
> bhavanga 
> > (life continuum).  
> 
> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would 
> interpose, would it?

I haven't heard of this part either.  What I have heard is that the Uppana 
level cittas rise uninterrupted in Jhana.  I haven't heard about Upacara 
level cittas rising in a similar manner.

kom

 
4849 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:21am
Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick > sujin 
immediately 
> said "better to have the vipaka(result) now,
> > than in the future". 
> 
> Did she explain why this is so?

The way I'd explain it is that I've been taught that unripened karma 
grows in strength, compounding day by day until it ripens. I liken 
this to accumulating debt at extortionate interest rates, say the IRS 
(the US tax collection agency for non-Americans), for example. Even a 
small initial debt can grow to gargantuan proportions with this sort 
of daily interest accruing, and even a tiny initial debt can become 
the cause to have the government later come in and take everything 
you own and bankrupt you for not paying, as they do now.

(What can I say? Last week was tax week here in the USA. :)

 
4850 From: Num 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 0:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)

 
  Hi,

Just like to add, I think, almost the same quote from Milinda-panha, 
translated by Rhys Davids, 1925.


> :
> 
> "There cannot be  awareness of dosa, before the first stage of
> insight,
> knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When there is
> dosa, we 
> take
> all realities together, as a whole. But there is citta, citta 
> experiences
> the object in the unwholesome way, there are cetasikas, dosa,
> and 
> unpleasant
> feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas conditioned by
> dosa, 
> but,
> it is very hard to distinguish between these realities, it is
> most
> intricate. This should not discourage us, it is understanding
> which 
> starts
> to realize more of realities. We may not notice that there is an
> idea 
> of my
> dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think with
> understanding 
> about
> what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the moments of
> thinking 
> pass
> immediately, there are so many of them."

.............................................................................
Book 3, 16.

       The Elder said :" A hard thing there is, O king, which the Blessed One 
has done."
       "And what is that?"
       "The fixing of all those mental conditions which depend on one organ 
of sense, telling us that such is contact (phassa), and such sensation 
(vedana), and such idea (sanna), and such intention (cetana), and such 
thought (citta)."
       "Give me an illustration."
       "Suppose, O king, a man were to wade down into the sea, and taking 
some water in the palm of his hand, were to taste it with his tongue. Would 
he distinguish whether it were water from Ganges, or from the Jumna, of from 
the Akiravati, or from the Sarabhu, or from the Mahi?"
       "Impossible, Sir."
       "More difficult than that, great king, is it to have distinguished 
between the mental conditions which follow on the exercise of any one of the 
organs of sense!"
       "Very good, Nagasena."
..............................................................................

..


Have to go.

Num




 
4851 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)

 
  Outstanding, Num--thanks...

mn
--- Num wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Just like to add, I think, almost the same quote
> from Milinda-panha, 
> translated by Rhys Davids, 1925.
> 
> 
> > :
> > 
> > "There cannot be  awareness of dosa, before the
> first stage of
> > insight,
> > knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When
> there is
> > dosa, we 
> > take
> > all realities together, as a whole. But there is
> citta, citta 
> > experiences
> > the object in the unwholesome way, there are
> cetasikas, dosa,
> > and 
> > unpleasant
> > feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas
> conditioned by
> > dosa, 
> > but,
> > it is very hard to distinguish between these
> realities, it is
> > most
> > intricate. This should not discourage us, it is
> understanding
> > which 
> > starts
> > to realize more of realities. We may not notice
> that there is an
> > idea 
> > of my
> > dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think
> with
> > understanding 
> > about
> > what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but
> the moments of
> > thinking 
> > pass
> > immediately, there are so many of them."
> 
>
.............................................................................
> Book 3, 16.
> 
>        The Elder said :" A hard thing there is, O
> king, which the Blessed One 
> has done."
>        "And what is that?"
>        "The fixing of all those mental conditions
> which depend on one organ 
> of sense, telling us that such is contact (phassa),
> and such sensation 
> (vedana), and such idea (sanna), and such intention
> (cetana), and such 
> thought (citta)."
>        "Give me an illustration."
>        "Suppose, O king, a man were to wade down
> into the sea, and taking 
> some water in the palm of his hand, were to taste it
> with his tongue. Would 
> he distinguish whether it were water from Ganges, or
> from the Jumna, of from 
> the Akiravati, or from the Sarabhu, or from the
> Mahi?"
>        "Impossible, Sir."
>        "More difficult than that, great king, is it
> to have distinguished 
> between the mental conditions which follow on the
> exercise of any one of the 
> organs of sense!"
>        "Very good, Nagasena."
>
..............................................................................
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Have to go.
> 
> Num
> 


 
4852 From: <> 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  [snipped]

Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot
of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially
in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written
by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads
them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net
now?

btw... I see this Nina Van Gorkom name comes up  a few times in the web...
honestly I have never read any of her books or maybe I have... it is because
usually I read Dhamma books based on the titles rather than the author (though
rarely I do). Can you list some titles that she has written maybe I could recall
a bit...

Most of my dhamma readings are from books.... recently only I found out that the
Dhamma has spread extensively into the virtual world....

comparatively the web has developed rather rapidly the past ten years (in my
country) and also the web itself... and seeing the Dhamma in the Net is simply
wonderful and exhilirating.. no more searching books and get bored not able to
find any... or embarassed at sounding real stupid when you are about to ask the
teacher during Q&A...hhahah.....

nice to know all of you....

sarah... noticed that your email is from Hong Kong.. do you reside there or do
just register via yahoo's portal there ? please do tell me more of yourself..
thankyou in advance

 
4853 From: <> 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  thank you amara

 
 
4854 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:06pm
Subject: Kamma, Feelings, Jains, Suttas, Abhidhamma, Life's Work

 
  Dear Howard, Kom, Rob, Erik, Marlon, & Everyone Else!

I think we are now agreed that both the suttas and
abhidhamma discuss different kinds of feelings
(vedana) and that some are conditioned partly by kamma
and others are not.

Howard quoted the following sutta to make the point
(I'm just repeating a small part): Samyutta Nikaya
XXXVI.21

Moliyasivaka Sutta

To Sivaka

Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera

"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a
doctrine and view that 
'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain
or 
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by
previous action,' then they 
go beyond what they know by themselves and what is
accepted as true by the 
world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part
of these ascetics and 
brahmins." 

The view that ' whatever a person experiences....all
that is caused by what was done in the past',
according to the footnote (B.Bodhi trans) is 'ofen
referred to as pubbakatahetuvada.' In Maj Nik, 101
Devadaha Sutta, this view is ascribed to the Jains:

'....Bhikkhus, there are some recluses and brahmins
who hold such a doctrine and view as this: 'Whatever
this person feels, whether pleasure or pain or neither
pain nor pleasure, all this is caused by what was done
in the past. So by annihilating with asceticism past
actions and by doing no fresh actions, there will be
no consequence in the future.  With no consequence in
the future, there is the destruction of action.  With
the destruction of action, there is the destruction of
suffering.  With the destruction of suffering, there
is the destruction of feeling.  With the destruction
of feeling, all suffering will be exhausted.' So speak
the Niganthas, bhikkhus.....'

As Kom & Rob have explained quite clearly, I think,
the abhidhamma enumerates, in very precise detail,
which realities are conditioned by kamma paccaya
(amongst other conditions) and which are not. Feelings
accompany every citta and only those accompanying
vipaka cittas can be said to be conditioned by kamma.

Immediately following the Sivaka Sutta which Howard
quoted, in the same section 'the Theme of the Hundred
and Eight', the Buddha continues by describing the 108
kinds of feelings. These are in exact accordance with
analysis in the abhidhamma texts as far as I can see.

Kom wrote that his 'life's most worthwhile task is to
find what the truth is'. On the other hand, Marlon
said his 'life's goal in buddhism is stop further such
false doctrines which are causing segregation in
buddhism and in fact re-unify all these myriad sects
Back into the original Dhamma-vinaya as when the Lord
Buddha was alive'.

I would suggest that there always have been and always
will be different sects both within and outside
Buddhism. Like Kom, I think the best that can be done
is to study, consider and develop panna (right
understanding) at this moment with the help of the
Tipitaka as guide. At the moment of understanding a
reality, the benefit is apparent immediately as
ignorance disappears just for that instant.

At the risk of making this post over long (& maybe
embarrassing Mike) I'd like to sign off here by
sharing a post from the archives which I hope will be
seen as relevant(!):

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Veronica,

I can't give you an authoritative answer, but would
like to tell you 
what has caught my interest in abhidhamma.  For nearly
thirty years 
I've wandered around in various schools of Buddhism,
the last ten or 
so in the Theravada.  I was very glad when this
meandering led me to 
the sutta-pitaka.  I bought the PTS edition and read
all of it, some 
more than once or even twice.  Why I appreciate having
had the great 
good fortune of discovering this group (and with it
abhidhamma): MANY 
ideas I had developed individually, intellectually and
intuitively 
and with the help of others, good monks among them,
were simply 
mistaken.  So much was clarified in such a short time!
 And all of it 
from the same suttas I'd read and contemplated and
embraced.  Maybe, 
if I'd had the time, I would've figured out the
inconsistencies in my 
own understanding eventually, but I don't think so. 
The way this 
information has been carefully gleaned from the suttas
and laid out, 
cross-referenced and so on, is incredibly helpful. 
So, from my point 
of view, why re-invent the eight-spoked wheel?  I can
always measure 
my own intuition and reasoning against the abhidhamma
and the suttas 
and frankly, it's always the former, not the suttas or
the abhidhamma 
(which always agree), that come up short.

I hope that you won't pass up this opportunity to
investigate this 
wonderful material for yourself.

Mike 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks everyone, for all the good threads too,
Sarah

 

 
4855 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala  
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 395

 
  Dear Chai Liang Loke,
Welcome to the group. Nina van Gorkom is a wonderful writer and her
expositions of the Abhidhamma are one of the main sources for clear,
scholarly explanations of dhamma in English. Her books have enriched the
lives of more people on the path of dhamma than she probably can imagine.
She is from the Netherlands and has been a student of Acharn Sujin
Borihanwanaket here in Thailand since the 1960's, I believe. I finally had
the honor of meeting her and her husband Ludovic for the first time last
year when they came to visit Tan Acharn Sujin and we all went to Kanjanaburi
for 4 fabulous days of dhamma discussions.

You will find further information about ordering her books, and the
opportunity to download some of them as well at: www.zolag.com

Hope you find her writing as insightful as I have.

With metta,
Betty Yugala

 
4856 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala  
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: wrong address

 
  Sorry, that's www.zolag.co.uk  (not zolag.com)

Betty

 
4857 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:11:12 -0000
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara


> Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to 
> the 
> > > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the 
> > object 
> > > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous 
> > > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the 
> > bhavanga 
> > > (life continuum).  
> > 
> > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would 
> > interpose, would it?
> 
> I haven't heard of this part either.  What I have heard is that the Uppana 
> level cittas rise uninterrupted in Jhana.  I haven't heard about Upacara 
> level cittas rising in a similar manner.
> 
> kom
> 
Dear Amara and Kom,
I think uapacara jhana  (first jhana only )in buddhanusati,sanghanussati,caganusatti etc will have bhavanga interpose within the citta.The yogi have to restart their mind for many objects.But the upacara jhana for kasina ,anapanasati(to  8 jhana or four jhana)will not have bhavanga interpose.It is upacara,upacara,upacara .......after the citthavithi for attaining it.The will still have the same sankhara(mental factors) with the appana jhana but only can be easily drop into daily bhavanga.
From Teng Kee


 
4858 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  > Dear Amara and Kom,
> I think uapacara jhana  (first jhana only )in 
buddhanusati,sanghanussati,caganusatti etc will have bhavanga 
interpose within the citta.The yogi have to restart their mind for 
many objects.But the upacara jhana for kasina ,anapanasati(to  8 jhana 
or four jhana)will not have bhavanga interpose.It is 
upacara,upacara,upacara .......after the citthavithi for attaining 
it.The will still have the same sankhara(mental factors) with the 
appana jhana but only can be easily drop into daily bhavanga.
> From Teng Kee

Dear Teng Kee,

Can you name your sources?

Amara

 
4859 From: McCall 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:33pm
Subject: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Headless Chickens-----
Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of 
personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same 
defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them 
stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion 
with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental 
anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

The Fugitive------
Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. 
They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it 
has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most 
religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma 
without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety 
we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For 
Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used 
not just little pieces you fancy. 

Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying 
to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and 
dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a 
Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's 
entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views 
of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated 
after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern 
Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the 
Sutta's every word, relentlessly.

Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the 
commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not 
accepting it fully.

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. 
But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or 
to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata 
does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His 
knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being 
worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally 
destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not 
regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's 
knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being 
worth speaking to or admonishing." 

Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html

Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand 
the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's 
Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when 
nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in 
this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here 
like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage 
are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough 
is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. 

Now is Buddhism Clearer !
With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall

 
4860 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  > 
> Can you name your sources?


Dear Chai Lieng and Teng Kee,

Sorry if I sounded curt in my last message, I have come across this in 
the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Chapter 9, advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and am looking for further references, 
but it seems that you are both right:

Kilesa is not an easy thing to suppress because when we see, we take 
pleasure or are displeased.  But when there is appana-samadhi, the 
citta is a jhana-citta established steadfastly in the arammana through 
the mind-door.  There is no seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
knowing body sense contact.  While there is jhana-citta over any 
period of time, the bhavanga-citta does not arise in between at all 
unlike when there is kama-vacara-citta, which are very few and short, 
being paritta-dhamma.  


Therefore at the upacara level which is before the jhana arises, there 
must be bhaavanga! 

Thanks for the corrections,

Amara

 
4861 From: Alex T 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Dear Marlon,

   I understand that everyone finds Buddhism under his 
circumstances.  In fact, while the war was going on in my country, 
some of our young men became monks so that they were not drafted.  
However, after studying the Lord's Teachings, they were convinced and 
stayed in the Sangha sincerely.  

   If all of the debators or the escapees find some consolations in 
the Teachings, let it be.  Meanwhile, I think that we need to help 
everyone to understand what the Buddha taught.  Besides, it also 
helps us to understand the Teachings more.

Respectfully,
Alex

 
4862 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:45am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Dear Marlon,

I wondered if you expected a reply to this, since you would probably 
consider it 'analyzing and dissecting each individual word' But in 
this list as well as in the times of the Buddha words were the main 
means of communication, even the Buddha used concepts to convey the 
paramatthadhamma.  And to understand the meaning as a whole one has to 
listen to, as you said, the entire sutta, I would go further and say, 
if possible, the entire Tipitaka.  

> Headless Chickens-----
> Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of 
> personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this 
same 
> defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them 
> stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion 
> with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental 
> anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
> 
> The Fugitive------
> Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. 
> They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything 
it 
> has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most 
> religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma 
> without attempting to conform to the original message in its 
entirety 
> we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For 
> Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used 
> not just little pieces you fancy. 

I don't know why others became Buddhists but I was 'born' one and I 
began my studies first because I wanted to know what the teachings 
were and not just follow the rites and rituals, nor because I liked 
the looks of a 'god' which I knew the Buddha was not.  He is above 
being a God because we can prove his teachings where it concerned us; 
while gods demand blind faith and obedience.  I gained more and more 
confidence in the Buddha and his teachings because of the knowledge I 
learned in the course of my studies, panna of things as they really 
are, at least at the intellectual level, and which I am confident will 
bring me the ultimate eradication of kilesa, when accumulated to the 
realization level.  I don't mind learning about realities right here 
where I am in front of the computer, seeing colors and shapes, 
thinking about them, etc. through the six dvara, of which the Buddha 
said the knowledge would accumulate to show me the tilakhana, via the 
realization of the nana.  In fact I believe the Buddha when he says we 
all have our accumulations and no two people are alike. 

> Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
> Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying 
> to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and 
> dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a 
> Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's 
> entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse 
views 
> of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated 
> after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern 
> Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the 
> Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
> 
> Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
> Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the 
> commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not 
> accepting it fully.
> 
> "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take 
life. 
> But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or 
> to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the 
Tathagata 
> does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His 
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being 
> worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be 
totally 
> destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not 
> regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's 
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being 
> worth speaking to or admonishing." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
> Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
> 
> Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
> This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand 
> the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord 
Buddha's 
> Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when 
> nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in 
> this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept 
here 
> like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage 
> are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough 
> is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. 


My own accumulations is not to run away from the truth before me, but 
to study whatever appears, and accumulate panna about the present 
moment as much as possible.  I know that I am the reason why I have 
not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be 
able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level.  Panna would 
then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is 
'commitment that is required' of us or not.  To 'want' to do something 
without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather 
the opposite.  I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge 
in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a 
long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon 
voyage'! 

Amara

 
4863 From: craig garner   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Dear Marlon, I agree entirely with your comments and we all begin somewhere.
This is why pain is our guide towards Buddha from then on we must make our
best efforts with what we have learnt so far.
                                                       Best wishes to and
metta to all. Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:33 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism is not a Religion


> Headless Chickens-----
> Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
> personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same
> defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
> stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
> with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
> anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
>
> The Fugitive------
> Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
> They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it
> has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
> religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
> without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety
> we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
> Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
> not just little pieces you fancy.
>
> Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
> Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying
> to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and
> dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a
> Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's
> entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views
> of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated
> after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern
> Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the
> Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
>
> Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
> Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the
> commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not
> accepting it fully.
>
> "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life.
> But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or
> to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata
> does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being
> worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally
> destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not
> regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being
> worth speaking to or admonishing."
>
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
> Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
>
> Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
> This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand
> the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's
> Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when
> nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in
> this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here
> like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage
> are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough
> is you. Don't you want to escape and return home.
>
> Now is Buddhism Clearer !
> With Utmost Respect Always
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall
>


 
4864 From: craig garner   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Yes Alex so true are your words, those words in samsara speak the truth.
Thus samsara is disolved with those words.
                                                                       Best
wishes with metta Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: <Alex T>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:54 PM

 
4865 From: craig garner   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Dear Amara, yes indeed to know the complete writtings word by word and
realize them day by day or moment by moment.


Best wishes and Metta Craig

 
4866 From: David Kinney   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:35am
Subject: RA channel for

 
  Greetings All,

Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk shows
can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, do
you know if any are in English (maybe that's a stupid
question).  And if you all know of any other RA
channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
hear about them.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Dave



 
4867 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 4/24/01 12:46:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> Dear Marlon,
> 
> I wondered if you expected a reply to this, since you would probably 
> consider it 'analyzing and dissecting each individual word' But in 
> this list as well as in the times of the Buddha words were the main 
> means of communication, even the Buddha used concepts to convey the 
> paramatthadhamma.  And to understand the meaning as a whole one has to 
> listen to, as you said, the entire sutta, I would go further and say, 
> if possible, the entire Tipitaka.  
> 
> > Headless Chickens-----
> > Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of 
> > personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this 
> same 
> > defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them 
> > stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion 
> > with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental 
> > anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
> > 
> > The Fugitive------
> > Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. 
> > They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything 
> it 
> > has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most 
> > religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma 
> > without attempting to conform to the original message in its 
> entirety 
> > we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For 
> > Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used 
> > not just little pieces you fancy. 
> 
> I don't know why others became Buddhists but I was 'born' one and I 
> began my studies first because I wanted to know what the teachings 
> were and not just follow the rites and rituals, nor because I liked 
> the looks of a 'god' which I knew the Buddha was not.  He is above 
> being a God because we can prove his teachings where it concerned us; 
> while gods demand blind faith and obedience.  I gained more and more 
> confidence in the Buddha and his teachings because of the knowledge I 
> learned in the course of my studies, panna of things as they really 
> are, at least at the intellectual level, and which I am confident will 
> bring me the ultimate eradication of kilesa, when accumulated to the 
> realization level.  I don't mind learning about realities right here 
> where I am in front of the computer, seeing colors and shapes, 
> thinking about them, etc. through the six dvara, of which the Buddha 
> said the knowledge would accumulate to show me the tilakhana, via the 
> realization of the nana.  In fact I believe the Buddha when he says we 
> all have our accumulations and no two people are alike. 
> 
> > Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
> > Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying 
> > to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and 
> > dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a 
> > Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's 
> > entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse 
> views 
> > of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated 
> > after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern 
> > Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the 
> > Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
> > 
> > Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
> > Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the 
> > commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not 
> > accepting it fully.
> > 
> > "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take 
> life. 
> > But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or 
> > to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the 
> Tathagata 
> > does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His 
> > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being 
> > worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be 
> totally 
> > destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not 
> > regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's 
> > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being 
> > worth speaking to or admonishing." 
> > 
> > Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
> > Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
> > 
> > Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
> > This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand 
> > the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord 
> Buddha's 
> > Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when 
> > nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in 
> > this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept 
> here 
> > like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage 
> > are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough 
> > is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. 
> 
> 
> My own accumulations is not to run away from the truth before me, but 
> to study whatever appears, and accumulate panna about the present 
> moment as much as possible.  I know that I am the reason why I have 
> not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be 
> able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level.  Panna would 
> then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is 
> 'commitment that is required' of us or not.  To 'want' to do something 
> without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather 
> the opposite.  I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge 
> in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a 
> long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon 
> voyage'! 
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
===================================
       What you express here is very interesting to me. If I understand you 
correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating of 
sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly understood, in 
full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, eventually 
serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond 
at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and liberation. 
This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It strikes me as 
somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the samatha and 
standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does not imply 
being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, or did I 
misunderstand?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4868 From: Joe 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:20am
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  Kom

Everything you have written makes sense to me except one passage:

> I think one of the methods that we can
> go about determining whether what we understand may have a
> chance of being valid is to reference it against the
> tipitakas.  (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great
> References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]).   Therefore, in picking
> a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most
> consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using
> the texts as references rather than one that consistently
> injects what they believe in.  As long as one is not an
> ariya, one still has micha-ditthi.  Wouldn't you be
> uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you
> may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well?
> 
> > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the
> > exact same Pali canon,
> > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > come up with two
> > rather different interpretations.
> 
> I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali
> cannon.  Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka,
> the whole tipitaka, more than the other?  I would argue so.
> Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except
> for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect
> things sometimes or another.  How do you know what they
> teach is correct?  At the basic and fundamental level, I
> think I would reference tipitaka.  Eventually, this is
> obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to
> have the right tool.

If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a 
third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as examples. 
My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your 
teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your 
understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous 
conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be 
said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a theoretical 
compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's 
not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his 
demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!)

> 
> There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the
> Buddha spoke of.  My life's most worthwhile task is to find
> what the truth is.  I think I am more likely to find it,
> depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for
> the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own
> views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi
> in countless life.

Yes, I agree with this. But every one of us appears to need the help 
of others (not to mention our own evaluative resources, developed 
by 'accumulations' or conditioning) in interpreting the texts 
(otherwise none of us would be participating in this discussion 
group). 

> These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right
> tool (panna) to discern it.

The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that 
panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is 
making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma 
before panna knows that they represent same.

> If one understands the truth without being taught, then one
> can become self-enlightened.  This is the accumulation of
> sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only.  

Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you 
read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical 
loop that I'm trying to work out of. 

Thanks very much for your reasoned response.

Joe

PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not 
the 'virtual' one <g>)?

 
 
4869 From: Joe 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:53am
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  Jon

Thanks for taking the time to compose your response.

> Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
> well-written post.  I'm afraid I'm not much good at
> theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
>  pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
> Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
> post).

Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing 
with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning 
of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's 
theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested. 
If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is 
unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed 
theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
 
> > As usual I've been following this list very much as
> > a lurker -- hey 
> > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> > I do it for a 
> > living after all! -- and this point about the
> > pitakas being the 
> > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> > examining beyond 
> > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> > what works for me" 
> > kind of dialog I often see here. 
> 
> I am not sure that there is much difference between
> these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
> concerned.  Both would claim that their practice is
> based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
> Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
> 'ultimate authority'.  

I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I 
was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to 
hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued 
personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that 
point of view.

>The difference is rather in the
> understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka. 
> The fact that there are these differences is not
> surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
> penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
> lives.

Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one 
interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But 
there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one 
particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have 
discovered) is the correct one.

> I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
> applied to the pitakas.  Again, I would put the
> question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
> are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.  

Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question 
so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is 
infallible?

>Can there be
> > an independent 
> > judge of the fruits of your practice?
> 
> I don't believe so.

Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?

> My own approach is to test any expression of view
> against the Tipitaka.  To me, this is essential
> because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> unreliable and therefore dangerous guide.  I don't
> feel the need to make any apology for this approach
> (nor are you suggesting that I should).  But the fact
> is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.

And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly?

> Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
> example from the archives of anyone on this list
> making a similar claim!  

Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I 
could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that 
far.


> 
> > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> > place unwritten 
> > dharma transmission  -- person to person
> > transmission, as in Tibetan 
> > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > (those who follow 
> > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > transmission, 
> > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > differing 
> > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > sutras, Sanskrit vs 
> > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> > undefined Pali 
> > terms, etc. 
> 
> That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
> regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
> than written transmission?

Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.

> 
> > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> > same Pali canon, 
> > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > come up with two 
> > rather different interpretations.
> 
> Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
> think. Wrong view abounds!  Access to and 'knowledge'
> of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.

A very reasonable reply.

> 
> > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> > written or 
> > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > could argue that one 
> > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> > but from 
> > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > tactical conundrum 
> > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > argue that the 
> > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > have the only 
> > correct interpretation of it. 
> 
> The approach taken by most people in my experience is
> that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
> the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
> discussion.  I agree that there are times when
> different views are robustly expressed, but this does
> not seem a bad thing to me.
> 
> > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> > or set of truths, 
> > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> > might be self-
> > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> > can be understood 
> > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> > this is a sort 
> > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> > depend on 
> > language and on a consensual understanding of
> > language -- 
> > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> > Chomsky. A logical 
> > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.
> 
> Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
> so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
> - fits the truths of the dhamma.  The description that
> comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
> experienced, each person for themself.

I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I 
don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point.

> 
> > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> > Buddhadharma 
> > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> > Tripitaka in fact 
> > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> > or perhaps 
> > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> > cracking the code, one 
> > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> > is the language 
> > a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> > be accessed in 
> > other ways? 
> > 
> > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.

> I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
> a struggle!

Yep.

> Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
> discussion.  I'm afraid my response does not do
> justice to the work that has gone into it.

Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious 
treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is).

> Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
> and in grand style, too.  You are now truly in the big
> league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!

Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt. 
Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with 
or w/o me ...

Joe

 
4870 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  "Otherwise you're caught in the same logical
loop that I'm trying to work out of." [Joe]

Thanks for your honesty and insight.

with equanimity,
des




>From: Joe
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:20:55 -0000
>
>Kom
>
>Everything you have written makes sense to me except one passage:
>
> > I think one of the methods that we can
> > go about determining whether what we understand may have a
> > chance of being valid is to reference it against the
> > tipitakas.  (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great
> > References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]).   Therefore, in picking
> > a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most
> > consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using
> > the texts as references rather than one that consistently
> > injects what they believe in.  As long as one is not an
> > ariya, one still has micha-ditthi.  Wouldn't you be
> > uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you
> > may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well?
> >
> > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the
> > > exact same Pali canon,
> > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > > come up with two
> > > rather different interpretations.
> >
> > I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali
> > cannon.  Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka,
> > the whole tipitaka, more than the other?  I would argue so.
> > Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except
> > for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect
> > things sometimes or another.  How do you know what they
> > teach is correct?  At the basic and fundamental level, I
> > think I would reference tipitaka.  Eventually, this is
> > obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to
> > have the right tool.
>
>If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a
>third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as examples.
>My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your
>teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your
>understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous
>conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be
>said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a theoretical
>compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's
>not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his
>demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!)
>
> >
> > There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the
> > Buddha spoke of.  My life's most worthwhile task is to find
> > what the truth is.  I think I am more likely to find it,
> > depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for
> > the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own
> > views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi
> > in countless life.
>
>Yes, I agree with this. But every one of us appears to need the help
>of others (not to mention our own evaluative resources, developed
>by 'accumulations' or conditioning) in interpreting the texts
>(otherwise none of us would be participating in this discussion
>group).
>
> > These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right
> > tool (panna) to discern it.
>
>The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that
>panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is
>making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma
>before panna knows that they represent same.
>
> > If one understands the truth without being taught, then one
> > can become self-enlightened.  This is the accumulation of
> > sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only.
>
>Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you
>read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical
>loop that I'm trying to work out of.
>
>Thanks very much for your reasoned response.
>
>Joe
>
>PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not
>the 'virtual' one <g>)?


 
4871 From: Num 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma, Feelings, Jains, Suttas, Abhidhamma, Life's Work

 
  Hi all,

I told myself that I should better stay off the dsg this month b/c of my 
really tight schedule this month.  I have just given up.  It's hard to get 
away from interesting and fascinating dhamma.  It haunted me :) !!  May be I 
better say it in more paccaya term, sahajatadhipati paccaya 
(conascent-predominence)-chanda, viriya, citta and vimamsa.


> As Kom & Rob have explained quite clearly, I think,
> the abhidhamma enumerates, in very precise detail,
> which realities are conditioned by kamma paccaya
> (amongst other conditions) and which are not. Feelings
> accompany every citta and only those accompanying
> vipaka cittas can be said to be conditioned by kamma.

Sarah, I agree with you that Kom and Rob have explained it very well.  But I 
still have some doubts. You talked about kamma paccaya and vipaka paccaya.  
Let me put part of Kom's quote and some from Dhammastudy.com, together and 
then follow by my conventional curiosity, ignorance and some questions.

Here is a quote from Dhammastudy.com

<<<<<<<<<<<

Kammaja-rupa
There are 9 rupa that arise specifically from kamma as samutthana, never from 
other samutthana:

1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa 2. Sotappasada-rupa 3. Ghanappasada-rupa 4. 
Jivhappasada-rupa 5. Kayappasada-rupa 6. Itthibhava-rupa 7. Purisabhava-rupa  
     
8. Hadaya-rupa 9. Jivitindriya-rupa

..............................................................................

.....................

11 functions of vipaka-citta : 1. Patisandhi-kicca is the function of 
continuity after cuti-kicca. 2. Bhavanga-kicca is the function of life 
continuum, keeping that lifetime. 3.  Dassana-kicca is the function of 
seeing. 4.  Savana-kicca is the function of hearing. 5. Ghayana-kicca is the 
function of smelling. 6. Sayana-kicca is the function of tasting. 7. 
Phussana-kicca is the function of knowing bodysense contact. 8. 
Sampaticchanna-kicca is the function of receiving arammana from the 
davi-panca-vinnana 9. Santirana-kicca is the function of examining arammana 
appearing through the five dvara. 10. Tadalambana-kicca is the function of 
knowing the arammana in continuation from the javana-citta.  11. Cuti-kicca 
is the function of leaving that being, that lifetime.

There are 3 functions of citta which not run by vipaka-citta 1.Avajjana-kicca 
is the function of adverting to the arammana in contact with the dvara. 
2.Votthabbana-kicca is the function of determining the arammana to make one 
of the kinds of javana-citta arise through the panca-dvara. 3.Javana-kicca is 
the function of running through the arammana or absorbing the arammana.

......................................................................


Kamma can be paccaya for citta, cetasika and some rupa as a quote above.  I 
don't think kamma is a paccaya for outer rupas, sound, smell, flavor 
hard-soft-heat-cold-tension and color are pretty much utuja-rupa, rupa that 
arise from utu as samutthana.

I still doubt that which rupa is a result of kamma. Here are my questions.

QUES. 1. Is hair, eye, or skin color is result of kamma.  Or when it's said 
that to be born with good looking appearance is a result of kamma.  If kamma 
can be cause of only 9 kammaja-rupa as above, how you explain it?   In 
tipitaka, there repeatedly mentioned about praise for skin color, I wonder is 
that result of kamma or just plain genetics or something else.

QUES. 2. Twins, esp identical twins, look very similar in their appearance, 
hair, eye, skin color. I agree that even we call them identical twins, they 
are not exactly the same.  Their vipaka-citta, esp. sense-organ base, are 
definitely different.    The book says that animals and men are all different 
in their appearance b/c kamma.  To me, even the trees are all different.  No 
two apples are exactly identical. Tree does not has kamma or vipaka as 
paccaya.  So I think we cannot say that men are all different only b/c of 
kamma.   Twins have tendency to have similar disease, not always.  So when 
someone say that sickness is a result of kamma, I still doubt about it as 
well.  Disease can be result of many things, may be kamma as well.

QUES. 3. When I got call in middle of the night (work related).  Well, I can 
agree that hearing the beeper sound is vipaka, but irritability of being woke 
in middle of the night is not vipaka. I don't know how exactly to 
differentiate between akusula and kusula sota-vinnana-vipaka or even when I 
see something which one is akusula and kusula chakku-vinnana-vipaka. From my 
reading with chakku-sota-kana-jivha vinnana, both kusula and akusala are 
accompany by upekka-vedana, only kaya-vinnana has to be dukha- or 
sukha-sahagatam kaya-vinnana.  So by what standard that we classify kusula 
from akusula-vipaka??    After I heard the sound or saw the color, at time 
pleasant feeling comes, at time unpleasant feeling and at time I like what I 
heard and saw, at time there were some degree of aversion. 


Num






 
4872 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for

 
  Greetings, Dave,

These were available for a time and I lost track of
the schedule.  I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun
Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a response.
 I'd very much like to find this out myself.

By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I
recall, some WERE in English--not certain though.

mike
--- David Kinney  wrote:
> Greetings All,
> 
> Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> shows
> can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> do
> you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> stupid
> question).  And if you all know of any other RA
> channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> hear about them.
> 
> Thanks for your time and consideration,
> 
> Dave



 
4873 From: Antony 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:13am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  most people generalize to a high degree

 
4874 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:02am
Subject: Happy birthday

 
  Birthday greetings Howard! 
best wishes on the auspicious occasion of your 61st birthday.
Robert
(I hope I got the day and age right?)


 
4875 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 4/24/01 9:05:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:


> Birthday greetings Howard! 
> best wishes on the auspicious occasion of your 61st birthday.
> Robert
> (I hope I got the day and age right?)
> 
> 
==================================
       Wow!! Thanks so much for the kind wishes and for remembering. Quite 
remarkable, I must say! 
       The day is tomorrow, the 25th, and the age is exactly right. I had my 
main celebration yesterday with the whole family, including my older son and 
his wife who were visiting from Dallas. We don't get to see them very often, 
so this birthday celebration was a real treat. Thanks again for thinking of 
me, Robert. you are most kind.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4876 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:41am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy birthday?


Happy birthday Howard.


Rgds





[vimutti saaraa , sabbe dhamma]

 
4877 From: Num 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Happy Birthday to you too, Howard.

Wish you health and cheerful with dhamma.

Num

 
4878 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:21am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  >        What you express here is very interesting to me. If I 
understand you 
> correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating 
of 
> sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly 
understood, in 
> full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, 
eventually 
> serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond 
> at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and 
liberation. 
> This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It 
strikes me as 
> somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the 
samatha and 
> standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does 
not imply 
> being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, 
or did I 
> misunderstand?
> 
> With metta,
> Howard




Hi! Howard,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MY FAVORITE CRITIC!!!

May you benefit from all the Buddha intended in teaching the Dhamma to 
the world!

I know you like KS's writings (actually taken from her talks), have 
you read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapters on 'Samatha' 
and 'Vipassana'?  In the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >  I think the site is up again otherwise 
please tell me and I'll send the chapters as email attachments to you 
off list!  There are also some short Q&As that might interest you, 
such as no.s 6, 8, 10, for example. 

By the way have you seen the new 'Word'?  Thanks again for the 
extremely rapid analysis of the articles I asked you to look at, I did 
not think you would oblige so quickly!  Please have a look at the 
great chapters above, I really look forward to your comments on them. 
 (In fact if you have time I would like to recommend you start at the 
very beginning and read it through, it is sort of my personal bible!), 
I'm sure you will find many interesting things to consider.

I believe things arise from conditions, kamma (for intelligent things) 
or others.  And one of the conditions for panna of the kind that 
experiences things as they really are, which at the most powerful 
degree can eradicate all defilements, must be to know what panna is, 
at the intellectual level.  Then how to accumulate panna, if it 
weren't already done in some past lives.  That presupposes some 
knowledge of what the citta and cetasika are, and how sati and panna 
works.  Otherwise one might mistake things like desire or 
concentration for panna.  All of which you will find in the book 
above, which I know you will enjoy,

Once the book, which is being prepared for printing, is ready for 
distribution, may I send one to you as another birthday present from 
one of the translators?

Amara

 
4879 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Howard,

I was just planning to send you a note off-list with
some recycled photos (thanks Amara and Jim < the
latter is another member of the Bull-headed League w/
a b'day just gone>).

A very happy extended Birthday from Jon and myself
too....we'll economise on ink and share a message!
What you have to realise is that some of have been on
the 25th for quite a few hours already..we can't help
it if you guys are a little behind...

May I also take this opportunity to thank you for all
your inspiring and well-considered posts to this list
over the last several months. You have added a
maturity and class and consistency which we've much
appreciated!

I'm glad you've been having fun with your family,

best wishes,
Sarah

p.s hope you get the photos 



 
4880 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  >  Dear Amara, yes indeed to know the complete writtings word by word 
and
> realize them day by day or moment by moment.


Dear Craig,

That would be the ideal thing wouldn't it?  However for me it would 
remain only an ideal, I'm afraid!

Amara

 
4881 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  "Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing
with theoretical constructs" [Joe]

Can't agree with you more, Joe.

with equanimity,
des


>From: Joe
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:53:52 -0000
>
>Jon
>
>Thanks for taking the time to compose your response.
>
> > Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
> > well-written post.  I'm afraid I'm not much good at
> > theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
> >  pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
> > Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
> > post).
>
>Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing
>with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning
>of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's
>theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested.
>If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is
>unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed
>theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
>
> > > As usual I've been following this list very much as
> > > a lurker -- hey
> > > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> > > I do it for a
> > > living after all! -- and this point about the
> > > pitakas being the
> > > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> > > examining beyond
> > > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> > > what works for me"
> > > kind of dialog I often see here.
> >
> > I am not sure that there is much difference between
> > these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
> > concerned.  Both would claim that their practice is
> > based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
> > Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
> > 'ultimate authority'.
>
>I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I
>was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to
>hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued
>personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that
>point of view.
>
> >The difference is rather in the
> > understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka.
> > The fact that there are these differences is not
> > surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
> > penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
> > lives.
>
>Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one
>interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But
>there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one
>particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have
>discovered) is the correct one.
>
> > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
> > applied to the pitakas.  Again, I would put the
> > question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
> > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.
>
>Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question
>so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is
>infallible?
>
> >Can there be
> > > an independent
> > > judge of the fruits of your practice?
> >
> > I don't believe so.
>
>Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?
>
> > My own approach is to test any expression of view
> > against the Tipitaka.  To me, this is essential
> > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide.  I don't
> > feel the need to make any apology for this approach
> > (nor are you suggesting that I should).  But the fact
> > is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
>
>And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly?
>
> > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
> > example from the archives of anyone on this list
> > making a similar claim!
>
>Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I
>could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that
>far.
>
>
> >
> > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> > > place unwritten
> > > dharma transmission  -- person to person
> > > transmission, as in Tibetan
> > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > > (those who follow
> > > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > > transmission,
> > > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > > differing
> > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > > sutras, Sanskrit vs
> > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> > > undefined Pali
> > > terms, etc.
> >
> > That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
> > regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
> > than written transmission?
>
>Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.
>
> >
> > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> > > same Pali canon,
> > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > > come up with two
> > > rather different interpretations.
> >
> > Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
> > think. Wrong view abounds!  Access to and 'knowledge'
> > of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.
>
>A very reasonable reply.
>
> >
> > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> > > written or
> > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > > could argue that one
> > > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> > > but from
> > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > > tactical conundrum
> > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > > argue that the
> > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > > have the only
> > > correct interpretation of it.
> >
> > The approach taken by most people in my experience is
> > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
> > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
> > discussion.  I agree that there are times when
> > different views are robustly expressed, but this does
> > not seem a bad thing to me.
> >
> > > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> > > or set of truths,
> > > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> > > might be self-
> > > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> > > can be understood
> > > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> > > this is a sort
> > > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> > > depend on
> > > language and on a consensual understanding of
> > > language --
> > > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> > > Chomsky. A logical
> > > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.
> >
> > Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
> > so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
> > - fits the truths of the dhamma.  The description that
> > comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
> > experienced, each person for themself.
>
>I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I
>don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point.
>
> >
> > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> > > Buddhadharma
> > > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> > > Tripitaka in fact
> > > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> > > or perhaps
> > > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> > > cracking the code, one
> > > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> > > is the language
> > > a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> > > be accessed in
> > > other ways?
> > >
> > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.
>
> > I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
> > a struggle!
>
>Yep.
>
> > Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
> > discussion.  I'm afraid my response does not do
> > justice to the work that has gone into it.
>
>Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious
>treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is).
>
> > Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
> > and in grand style, too.  You are now truly in the big
> > league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!
>
>Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt.
>Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with
>or w/o me ...
>
>Joe
>


 
4882 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:53pm
Subject: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  Dear Num, Mike & all,

I've been meaning to add something on chanda & viriya
in particular for sometime and I ralise now that I've
put it off because it's not so simple...

Just to summarise some of the questions that I made a
note of:

1. Num asked about the difference between lobha and
chanda

2. Mike raised the point about chanda, esp. dhamma
chanda, right effort and lobha

3. Mike also asked recently whether vipassana and
effort are mutually exclusive and 'how can 'we' make
an effort to dispel blemishes, or any other effort'.

Actually there have been several helpful replies to
these questions as they've arisen, but still I'd like
to consider a little more according to my
understanding (of course) and I may refer to
'Cetasikas' by Nina VG, too. As we saw in Num's
excellent quote recently from Milinda-panha, it is a
hard thing to 'fix' all those 'mental conditions'....

To bring the discussion back to the present moment and
what is being experienced now, let's talk about lobha
first and foremost! 

As we all know pretty clearly by now, the citta
(moment of consciousness) which sees at this moment,
sees a visible object. Without getting too technical,
lobha (attachment) 'attaches' to that object which has
just been seen instantly. The lobha 'enjoys' or
'savours' the object. Of course, lobha only arises
with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) and
then only those with lobha as hetu (root). For
example, it doesn't arise with dosa (aversion). The
texts remind us that it has the function of
'sticking', like 'meat put in a hot pan'. Need I say
more ???

Chanda (zeal, wish-to-do), on the other hand, arises
with kusala as well as akusala cittas and with vipaka
(result of kamma) and kiriya (neither cause or result)
cittas.

It 'desires' to act and has the function of 'scanning
for an object'. if we come back to this moment of
lobha for the visible object, then chanda looks for
the pleasant object and obtains it. Lobha cannot arise
without chanda, even just at this moment of attachment
to visible object when it seems nothing is 'obtained'.
It also accompanies dosa (aversion), helping the dosa
to find its object,too and with all kinds of kusala.
At a moment of metta (loving kindness) there is
chanda, helping the metta be loving to the object even
when there is no plan to have it (the metta) or one
has never heard of it.

When it comes to the development of sati (awareness)
and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to confuse
lobha for kusala chanda. When there is wishing to have
sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. It is
different, of course, from when there is a moment of
sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, chanda
arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object
for sati to be aware of.  Chanda may be predominant
when kusala is developed, but I think it's more
important to understand chanda at this moment of
lobha, or if we're lucky, at this moment of kusala.

Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the 4
jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
accompanying citta and cetasikas).  It arises with all
akusala cittas. So if we return to this moment of
lobha again, it arouses or supports or energises the
lobha and the other accompanying cetasikas and citta.
Without viriya, the lobha, chanda and the rest would
collapse. It really has very little to do with effort
as in 'making an effort'.

When it accompanies any kusala citta, again it
supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to
perform their tasks. Dare I call it the 'cheer-leader'
urging on the other players? If there is metta, it is
urged on and supported by this ever-present
cheer-leader.

Samma vayama, as we know, is the right effort which
accompanies the other factors of the eight-fold path.
By now it should be clear, that it is not a prelude to
awareness or the other factors, but the energy and
support that facilitates their functions in a similar
way in which it facilitates, supports or 'cheers on'
the lobha at the same instant they arise. Of course,
its nature is very different from the akusala viriya
accompanying lobha, but the function of supporting is
the same. 

When it is developed, it becomes an indriya or
controlling factor and 'strengthens' or 'supports'
more 'powerfully'. In the Atthasalini (1. part 1V.
Ch1, 121) it describes how: 'From its overcoming
idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of
predominance' like the 'pillars' of a house.

Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi (wrong
view) in.  Usually when lobha clings (and of course
chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their
tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just
clings, whether to the visible object or (the concept
of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha ditthi
which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that
there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's
possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware at
the next moment or in the future, for example. 

Hope this doesn't sound too dogmatic, Joe.  Please
shout if it does!

Sarah, (getting ready with lobha for Bangkok
tomorrow!). 



4883 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Dear Chai,

--- <> wrote: > 

Yes, jon and I have lived in Hong Kong for the last 2o
years and jon lived in Bangkok for 8 years before
that. We first met in Sri lanka after both studying
with khun sujin for a few years and she was the
'mtch-maker' later!! so, we're pretty 'Asian' by now
and hope to meet you somewhere in the region.

In addition to Zolag which Betty mentioned, you'll
find links to the other excellent websites which hve
most Nina's books if you zap here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links

Look forward to hearing more from you and thank you
for the info.

Nice to know you too!

Sarah> 

> btw... I see this Nina Van Gorkom name comes up  a
> few times in the web...
> honestly I have never read any of her books or maybe
> I have... it is because
> usually I read Dhamma books based on the titles
> rather than the author (though
> rarely I do). Can you list some titles that she has
> written maybe I could recall
> a bit...
> 
> Most of my dhamma readings are from books....
> recently only I found out that the
> Dhamma has spread extensively into the virtual
> world....
> 
> comparatively the web has developed rather rapidly
> the past ten years (in my
> country) and also the web itself... and seeing the
> Dhamma in the Net is simply
> wonderful and exhilirating.. no more searching books
> and get bored not able to
> find any... or embarassed at sounding real stupid
> when you are about to ask the
> teacher during Q&A...hhahah.....
> 
> nice to know all of you....
> 
> sarah... noticed that your email is from Hong Kong..
> do you reside there or do
> just register via yahoo's portal there ? please do
> tell me more of yourself..
> thankyou in advance
> 
 
 


 
4884 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for

 
  Dave,

I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the
ground'...

In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes
of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go
down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get
lost):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm

Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a
little more about your interest in dhamma and how you
know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'...

Rgds,
Sarah

--- David Kinney  wrote: >
Greetings All,
> 
> Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> shows
> can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> do
> you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> stupid
> question).  And if you all know of any other RA
> channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> hear about them.
> 
> Thanks for your time and consideration,
> 
> Dave
> 
> 


 
4885 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: moderators' akusala cittas

 
  Warning: this post is a little 'naughty' ;-)

dear Amara,

--- Amara  wrote: 

. This topic
> is very sensitive 
> > on one site and I have had a similar Post on
> Meditation pulled after 
> > posting. Must have driven home the point too hard.
> Big ego still 
> > present-----that's why big problems with
> meditation. Will try again 
> > before naming the site.
> 
> I must say it has happened to me also, whether
> someone intentionally 
> pulled mine or not, that is their problem and the
> akusala citta is 
> theirs alone.  

Are you suggesting that moderators of internet lists
that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala
cittas than ones who don't????? ;-)

>Sometimes I think it is also the
> server at fault, 

...maybe the akusala cittas of those pesky servers!

>but 
> all technical things have glitches, I think,
> otherwise their free 
> service has been of great benefit to me, I have
> learned a lot from the 
> list and look forward to more correspondence with
> you as well,

We all learn a lot from you, too....See you tomorrow!

Sarah


 
4886 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  Dear Joe,
--- Joe wrote: > Jon

> Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk
> more than spurt. 
> Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively
> and voluminous with 
> or w/o me ...

..run out of time to give any meaningful comments, but
may I just put in an order for the 'with you' option?
Thanks in advance!

Sarah


 
4887 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  Dear Indavati,
Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
anumodana.

----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati 
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara


> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
>
> Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
means
> that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> apanna
>
> Indavati
>

 
4888 From: Wafik 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:18pm
Subject: Hello from a new member

 
  Hello everybody in this Group,

I really appreciate all the messages posted and the wide knowledge of 
Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages.

For about a year now I've been reading a lot about Theravada Buddhism 
and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a meditation retreat in 
Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably you can give me 
some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a Myanmar embassy via e-
mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so far.

with metta

Wafik

 
4889 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:59pm
Subject: Re: moderators' akusala cittas

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Warning: this post is a little 'naughty' ;-)
> 
> dear Amara,


> Are you suggesting that moderators of internet lists
> that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala
> cittas than ones who don't????? ;-)


Dear Mod.,

Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong enough to produce 
the act itself!!!  Or don't you agree?  =^_^=


> >Sometimes I think it is also the
> > server at fault, 
> 
> ...maybe the akusala cittas of those pesky servers!
> 
> >but 
> > all technical things have glitches, I think,
> > otherwise their free 
> > service has been of great benefit to me, I have
> > learned a lot from the 
> > list and look forward to more correspondence with
> > you as well,
> 
> We all learn a lot from you, too....See you tomorrow!
> 
> Sarah

Looking forward very much!!!

A.

 
4890 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a new member

 
  Dear Wafik and David,

Welcome to the discussions!  Looking forward to your participation, 
and hope you get the information you want,

A fellow subscriber,

Amara



--- Wafik wrote:
> Hello everybody in this Group,
> 
> I really appreciate all the messages posted and the wide knowledge 
of 
> Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages.
> 
> For about a year now I've been reading a lot about Theravada 
Buddhism 
> and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a meditation retreat in 
> Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably you can give me 
> some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a Myanmar embassy via 
e-
> mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so far.
> 
> with metta
> 
> Wafik

 
4891 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:25pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the excellent post, but I'd like to ask for clarification 
on a few points.

Sarah:
> When it comes to the development of sati (awareness)
> and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to confuse
> lobha for kusala chanda. 
I would certainly agree with you here.

>When there is wishing to have
> sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. 
Of course I can't speak about your experience, but I'd question 
whether chanda for sati is necessarily lobha. For example, doesn't 
chanda accompany muncitu-kamyata-ñana (knowledge of desire for 
deliverance)? The object of this ñana is not precisely sati, but the 
chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana. Does it become lobha 
when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana fades?

>It is
> different, of course, from when there is a moment of
> sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, chanda
> arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object
> for sati to be aware of. 
I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but doesn't it also arise 
before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of scanning for an 
object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps bring about the 
establishment of sati?

> Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the 4
> jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> accompanying citta and cetasikas).  It arises with all
> akusala cittas. 
Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted in lobha?

Yikes! I have already spent too much time on dsg, and there are so 
many more things to think about here!

Dan

 
4892 From: Indavati   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:34pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point

Indavati



-----Message d'origine-----
De : selamat 
Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara


Dear Indavati,
Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
anumodana.

----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati 
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara


> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
>
> Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
means
> that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> apanna
>
> Indavati
>



 
4893 From: David Kinney   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't locate
file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't you hate
when that happens? :-)

My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a
Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up putting
the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" before
having even the most basic understandings). So, I have
regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of the
Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP.  Robert K. has
befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..

I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this list are
WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use of Pali
terms.  But a seed here, a seed there, Robert encourages me
to just have patience and take it for what I can get out of
it.

Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai Forest
tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail. So, I am
relying on media and the internet for now.

Best Wishes to All,

Dave



--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the
> ground'...
> 
> In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes
> of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go
> down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get
> lost):
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm
> 
> Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a
> little more about your interest in dhamma and how you
> know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'...
> 
> Rgds,
> Sarah
> 
> --- David Kinney  wrote: >
> Greetings All,
> > 
> > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> > shows
> > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> > do
> > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> > stupid
> > question).  And if you all know of any other RA
> > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> > hear about them.
> > 
> > Thanks for your time and consideration,
> > 
> > Dave
> > 


 
4894 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:57pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  > When it [viriya] accompanies any kusala citta, again it
> supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to
> perform their tasks. Dare I call it the 'cheer-leader'
> urging on the other players? If there is metta, it is
> urged on and supported by this ever-present
> cheer-leader.
I think of viriya as more quietly doing its job when arising in kusala 
cittas. When it gets to feeling like a cheer-leader, I recognize 
lobha.

> Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi (wrong
> view) in.  Usually when lobha clings (and of course
> chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their
> tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just
> clings, whether to the visible object or (the concept
> of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
> Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha ditthi
> which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that
> there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's
> possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware at
> the next moment or in the future, for example. 
Well put! But again, it depends on what you mean by "control". The 
word is not necessarily associated with wrong view. The word could be 
used in reference to conditions in which kusala cittas (including 
with sati) arise frequently and strongly while akusala cittas do not.

 
4895 From: David Kinney   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for

 
  Thanks to all who answered my request for information about
Khun Sujin's tapes and auio programs.


--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Greetings, Dave,
> 
> These were available for a time and I lost track of
> the schedule.  I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun
> Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a response.
>  I'd very much like to find this out myself.
> 
> By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I
> recall, some WERE in English--not certain though.
> 
> mike
> --- David Kinney  wrote:
> > Greetings All,
> > 
> > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> > shows
> > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> > do
> > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> > stupid
> > question).  And if you all know of any other RA
> > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> > hear about them.
> > 
> > Thanks for your time and consideration,
> > 
> > Dave
> > 
> > 


 
4896 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:10pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Ditto, Howard,

A very happy birthday, sir!

mike
--- Gayan Karunaratne  wrote:
> 
> 
> May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy
> birthday?
> 
> 
> Happy birthday Howard.
> 
> 
> Rgds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [vimutti saaraa , sabbe dhamma]
> 
>  


 
4897 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Hi, Gayan -

In a message dated 4/24/01 9:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Gayan writes:


> May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy birthday?
> 
> 
> Happy birthday Howard.
> 
> 
> Rgds
> 
============================
Thank you! And my best wishes to all other springtime babies!! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4898 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Hi, Num -

In a message dated 4/24/01 9:54:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Num 
writes:


> Happy Birthday to you too, Howard.
> 
> Wish you health and cheerful with dhamma.
> 
> Num
> 
===========================
Thank you! My very best to you as well!!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4899 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for

 
  Dear Dave,

Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky
note...I think i'll hve to ask kom, my technical
adviser, to help sort it out as I've really got to get
ready for an early flight tomorrow. (Kom, would you
mind coming to the rescue on or off-list as
appropriate, thanks in advance!)

thank you so much for this helpul intro....if I put in
the link to the pali glossary, you may get another
oops, so I'll let Kom do this too.

let me tell you, that many of the discussions, even
ones I participate in, are also 'over my head', but
slowly the 'jigsaw pieces' begin to fit together....it
is hard when you first arrive, into the deep end, so
please follow Rob's advice and just go slowly and
patiently. you may wish to pass over the technical
posts at first...the great thing about a list like
this is that you cn zap away a you like without
causing any offence!

I really believe that if one participates in the
discussions and asks the odd question or gives the odd
comment, it makes it easier to follow...what do you
think?

look forward to hearing plenty more about your
interest and understanding.

Very best rgds for now and hopefully we'll get the
'oops' sorted out!

Sarah

--- David Kinney  wrote: >
Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't
> locate
> file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't
> you hate
> when that happens? :-)
> 
> My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed
> a
> Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up
> putting
> the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic"
> before
> having even the most basic understandings). So, I
> have
> regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core
> of the
> Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP.  Robert K. has
> befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
> 
> I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this
> list are
> WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use
> of Pali
> terms.  But a seed here, a seed there, Robert
> encourages me
> to just have patience and take it for what I can get
> out of
> it.
> 
> Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai
> Forest
> tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail.
> So, I am
> relying on media and the internet for now.
> 
> Best Wishes to All,
> 
> Dave
> 



 
4900 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for taking the time for this thorough response.
 More later...

mike
--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:
> Dear Num, Mike & all,
> 
> I've been meaning to add something on chanda &
> viriya
> in particular for sometime and I ralise now that
> I've
> put it off because it's not so simple...
> 
> Just to summarise some of the questions that I made
> a
> note of:
> 
> 1. Num asked about the difference between lobha and
> chanda
> 
> 2. Mike raised the point about chanda, esp. dhamma
> chanda, right effort and lobha
> 
> 3. Mike also asked recently whether vipassana and
> effort are mutually exclusive and 'how can 'we' make
> an effort to dispel blemishes, or any other effort'.
> 
> Actually there have been several helpful replies to
> these questions as they've arisen, but still I'd
> like
> to consider a little more according to my
> understanding (of course) and I may refer to
> 'Cetasikas' by Nina VG, too. As we saw in Num's
> excellent quote recently from Milinda-panha, it is a
> hard thing to 'fix' all those 'mental
> conditions'....
> 
> To bring the discussion back to the present moment
> and
> what is being experienced now, let's talk about
> lobha
> first and foremost! 
> 
> As we all know pretty clearly by now, the citta
> (moment of consciousness) which sees at this moment,
> sees a visible object. Without getting too
> technical,
> lobha (attachment) 'attaches' to that object which
> has
> just been seen instantly. The lobha 'enjoys' or
> 'savours' the object. Of course, lobha only arises
> with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) and
> then only those with lobha as hetu (root). For
> example, it doesn't arise with dosa (aversion). The
> texts remind us that it has the function of
> 'sticking', like 'meat put in a hot pan'. Need I say
> more ???
> 
> Chanda (zeal, wish-to-do), on the other hand, arises
> with kusala as well as akusala cittas and with
> vipaka
> (result of kamma) and kiriya (neither cause or
> result)
> cittas.
> 
> It 'desires' to act and has the function of
> 'scanning
> for an object'. if we come back to this moment of
> lobha for the visible object, then chanda looks for
> the pleasant object and obtains it. Lobha cannot
> arise
> without chanda, even just at this moment of
> attachment
> to visible object when it seems nothing is
> 'obtained'.
> It also accompanies dosa (aversion), helping the
> dosa
> to find its object,too and with all kinds of kusala.
> At a moment of metta (loving kindness) there is
> chanda, helping the metta be loving to the object
> even
> when there is no plan to have it (the metta) or one
> has never heard of it.
> 
> When it comes to the development of sati (awareness)
> and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to
> confuse
> lobha for kusala chanda. When there is wishing to
> have
> sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. It is
> different, of course, from when there is a moment of
> sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati,
> chanda
> arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object
> for sati to be aware of.  Chanda may be predominant
> when kusala is developed, but I think it's more
> important to understand chanda at this moment of
> lobha, or if we're lucky, at this moment of kusala.
> 
> Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the
> 4
> jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> accompanying citta and cetasikas).  It arises with
> all
> akusala cittas. So if we return to this moment of
> lobha again, it arouses or supports or energises the
> lobha and the other accompanying cetasikas and
> citta.
> Without viriya, the lobha, chanda and the rest would
> collapse. It really has very little to do with
> effort
> as in 'making an effort'.
> 
> When it accompanies any kusala citta, again it
> supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to
> perform their tasks. Dare I call it the
> 'cheer-leader'
> urging on the other players? If there is metta, it
> is
> urged on and supported by this ever-present
> cheer-leader.
> 
> Samma vayama, as we know, is the right effort which
> accompanies the other factors of the eight-fold
> path.
> By now it should be clear, that it is not a prelude
> to
> awareness or the other factors, but the energy and
> support that facilitates their functions in a
> similar
> way in which it facilitates, supports or 'cheers on'
> the lobha at the same instant they arise. Of course,
> its nature is very different from the akusala viriya
> accompanying lobha, but the function of supporting
> is
> the same. 
> 
> When it is developed, it becomes an indriya or
> controlling factor and 'strengthens' or 'supports'
> more 'powerfully'. In the Atthasalini (1. part 1V.
> Ch1, 121) it describes how: 'From its overcoming
> idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of
> predominance' like the 'pillars' of a house.
> 
> Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi
> (wrong
> view) in.  Usually when lobha clings (and of course
> chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their
> tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just
> clings, whether to the visible object or (the
> concept
> of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
> Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha
> ditthi
> which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that
> there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's
> possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware
> at
> the next moment or in the future, for example. 
> 
> Hope this doesn't sound too dogmatic, Joe.  Please
> shout if it does!
> 
> Sarah, (getting ready with lobha for Bangkok
> tomorrow!). 
> 
> 
> 


 
4901 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: moderators' akusala cittas

 
  --- Amara  wrote:
 
> > Are you suggesting that moderators of internet
> lists
> > that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala
> > cittas than ones who don't????? ;-)
> 
> 
> Dear Mod.,
> 
> Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong
> enough to produce 
> the act itself!!!  Or don't you agree?  =^_^=
> 

Why so??? Would a web master who accepted any article
to his/her website have less akusala than one who was
selective???? Would a Dhamma Book publisher who
rejected certain articles and books necessarily do
this with akusala cittas?? Could they not do so with
concern or consideration or metta for their readers?? 

We'll probably be chatting live before we get this
sorted out!

Sarah


 
4902 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:51pm
Subject: Re: RA channel for

 
  --- David Kinney wrote:

> My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a
> Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up putting
> the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" before
> having even the most basic understandings). 

I've seen this. And the concomitant "rebound" effect this can 
engender. The temptation is to skip the basics and to go straight for 
the advanced stuff. But that will never work, as it appears you have 
discovered.

I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that temptation for 
me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been well-established in 
the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be "vajrayanic." It is 
either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. You can't choose 
it; it chooses you. Just curious, but which tradition?

> So, I have
> regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of the
> Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP.  Robert K. has
> befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..

The very best place to spend one's time, IMO, and if you are one of 
those "chosen" by Vajrayana, you are still best served this way. 
Tantra, for example, requires this foundation be firmly established--
and in particular that one understand emptiness/anatta very well 
first.

My approach has always been very eclectic. I take from all the major 
traditions of the Buddhadharma. Each system has a unique angle, and I 
have found comparing these angles to be a very effective way to 
discover what is being pointed at, because they're ALL pointing at 
the same thing. This is a favored approach of many Indian panditas 
because it can illuminate many things one might have otherwise 
missed, and is also a central pedagogical strategy in the Tibetan 
Geluk school, where you study several other schools' interpretations 
and perform hermeneutical analysis on the texts to unravel their 
meaning.

For me, this is also an exercise in forging my own version of the 
Dharma, because I am unsatisfied with all the major schools in some 
dimension--at least as vehicles for my own accumulations. I have as 
much affinity for Theravada as I do for Tibetan, and my wish is to 
unify these two major currents of Dharma into one in my own 
understanding (though keeping them well-separated too, given the very 
different strategies each employs).

Erik

 
4903 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 4/24/01 11:23:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:

> >        What you express here is very interesting to me. If I 
> understand you 
> > correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating 
> of 
> > sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly 
> understood, in 
> > full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, 
> eventually 
> > serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond 
> > at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and 
> liberation. 
> > This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It 
> strikes me as 
> > somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the 
> samatha and 
> > standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does 
> not imply 
> > being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, 
> or did I 
> > misunderstand?
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi! Howard,
> 
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MY FAVORITE CRITIC!!!
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thank you! Please intend 'critic' to mean "analyst", however, as 
opposed to "criticizer"! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------

> May you benefit from all the Buddha intended in teaching the Dhamma to 
> the world!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thank you, and may it be so with you as well!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I know you like KS's writings (actually taken from her talks), have 
> you read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapters on 'Samatha' 
> and 'Vipassana'?  In the advanced section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/ >  I think the site is up again otherwise 
> please tell me and I'll send the chapters as email attachments to you 
> off list!  There are also some short Q&As that might interest you, 
> such as no.s 6, 8, 10, for example. 
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I have dipped into the "Summary" from time to time. I will make it a 
point to do so again, and with greater thoroughness.
----------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> By the way have you seen the new 'Word'?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       If you are referring to the "Kamma and Vipaka" article, yes I have, 
and it is excellent - very rich for such a short piece!
-------------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks again for the 
> extremely rapid analysis of the articles I asked you to look at, I did 
> not think you would oblige so quickly!  Please have a look at the 
> great chapters above, I really look forward to your comments on them. 
> (In fact if you have time I would like to recommend you start at the 
> very beginning and read it through, it is sort of my personal bible!), 
> I'm sure you will find many interesting things to consider.
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I will do exactly that, which will take a bit of time. I want to do 
the material justice by not rushing through it.
---------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> I believe things arise from conditions, kamma (for intelligent things) 
> or others.  And one of the conditions for panna of the kind that 
> experiences things as they really are, which at the most powerful 
> degree can eradicate all defilements, must be to know what panna is, 
> at the intellectual level.  Then how to accumulate panna, if it 
> weren't already done in some past lives.  That presupposes some 
> knowledge of what the citta and cetasika are, and how sati and panna 
> works.  Otherwise one might mistake things like desire or 
> concentration for panna.  All of which you will find in the book 
> above, which I know you will enjoy,
------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I am not one of those people who thinks that intellectual knowledge of 
the Dhamma is of little importance. While I think that direct knowing is 
primarily attained by calming the mind and turning it towards direct and 
mindful observation, I surely do recognize the immense usefulness of 
understanding the Dhamma indirectly, through medium of the intellect.
------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Once the book, which is being prepared for printing, is ready for 
> distribution, may I send one to you as another birthday present from 
> one of the translators?
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       What a lovely offer! It will be a wonderful gift. Yes, indeed, thank 
you so much! Please let me know when the time arrives, and I'll send you my 
address. Very kind of you, Amara!
-------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
============================
With metta and appreciation,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4904 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- Howard wrote:

Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE 
HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)

That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at 
parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for 
an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically 
no death.

 
4905 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Than you for this sweet message! In a message dated 4/25/01 12:21:21 
AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes:


> 
> Howard,
> 
> I was just planning to send you a note off-list with
> some recycled photos (thanks Amara and Jim < the
> latter is another member of the Bull-headed League w/
> a b'day just gone>).
> 
> A very happy extended Birthday from Jon and myself
> too....we'll economise on ink and share a message!
> What you have to realise is that some of have been on
> the 25th for quite a few hours already..we can't help
> it if you guys are a little behind...
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thanks for the warm wishes.
------------------------------------------------------------


> May I also take this opportunity to thank you for all
> your inspiring and well-considered posts to this list
> over the last several months. You have added a
> maturity and class and consistency which we've much
> appreciated!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Wow! These words are a great birthday present!! Thank you so much. I 
have gained and continue to gain much from all of you!!
-------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> I'm glad you've been having fun with your family,
> 
> best wishes,
> Sarah
> 
> p.s hope you get the photos 
> 
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I look forward to them!
===============================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4906 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: moderators' akusala cittas

 
  > > Dear Mod.,
> > 
> > Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong
> > enough to produce 
> > the act itself!!!  Or don't you agree?  =^_^=
> > 
> 
> Why so??? Would a web master who accepted any article
> to his/her website have less akusala than one who was
> selective???? Would a Dhamma Book publisher who
> rejected certain articles and books necessarily do
> this with akusala cittas?? Could they not do so with
> concern or consideration or metta for their readers?? 
> 
> We'll probably be chatting live before we get this
> sorted out!
> 
> Sarah


When they pull MY relatively harmless messages, I think so, perhaps if 
there were ones that were really harmful or akusala filled invectives 
and such, I agree with you that it could be good... Have we ever had 
any of those?


Amara

 
4907 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE 
> HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)
> 
> That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at 
> parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for 
> an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically 
> no death.


Dear Erik,

On the contrary, technically there is nothing but death: on the very 
last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' ends with the three 
kinds of death:

The khanika-marana 	is the arising and falling away of all 
sakhra-dhamma.

The sammati-marana 	is death in a world, a lifetime.

The samuccheda-marana 	is the parinibbana, the death of the arahanta 
after which there is no more rebirth.

Only after the death of the arahanta would there be no more death 
since there would be no more rebirth possible.

Amara

 
4908 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- Erik wrote:
> > --- Howard wrote:
> > 
> > Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO 
MORE 
> > HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)
> > 
> > That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at 
> > parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta 
for 
> > an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is 
technically 
> > no death.
> 
> 
> Dear Erik,
> 
> On the contrary, technically there is nothing but death: on the 
very 
> last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' ends with the 
three 
> kinds of death:
> 
> The khanika-marana 	is the arising and falling away of all 
> sakhra-dhamma.
> 
> The sammati-marana 	is death in a world, a lifetime.
> 
> The samuccheda-marana 	is the parinibbana, the death of the 
arahanta 
> after which there is no more rebirth.
> 
> Only after the death of the arahanta would there be no more death 
> since there would be no more rebirth possible.

Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything 
regarding "death" about an arahant. Arahats don't die, rather their 
mind-body continuua cease. Conventionally we can say that the mind-
body continuum of one designated arahant has ceased, but applying the 
term "death" to an arahant is a logical absurdity, because they have 
eradicated avijja, and all the subsequent links in paticca samuppada 
including old age and death. How can arahata, who have permanently 
abandoned avijja, ever know death, as death depends on the presence 
of avijja?

 
4909 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  > Howard:
>        I am not one of those people who thinks that intellectual 
knowledge of 
> the Dhamma is of little importance. While I think that direct 
knowing is 
> primarily attained by calming the mind and turning it towards direct 
and 
> mindful observation, I surely do recognize the immense usefulness of 
> understanding the Dhamma indirectly, through medium of the 
intellect.

Dear Howard,

From my studies as well as personal experience, at moments of dana, 
sila and bhavana the citta is exempt from lobha dosa and moha, 
automatically.  Moments when realities are studied, even now if there 
is mindfulness of the characteristics of realities that appear through 
the eye, ear, etc. sati is accumulating right understanding of them as 
what they really are, just colors and shapes and light and shades, 
all visible objects that can appear only through the eye, as opposed 
to sounds and hardness and motion and taste, and lots of thinking; not 
us at all in the end.  

Sati and panna at these moments of right understanding are bhavana, or 
mental development, with which samadhi of the khanika samadhi arises. 
 At those instants the ekaggata cetasika of the right kind only 
arises, since panna only arises with kusala citta and the samadhi 
automatically would be samma samadhi.  No matter where we are or what 
we are doing, if the conditions are right and kusala, sati could arise 
and accumulate panna, by the tiniest instants, gradually building up 
the right understanding of things as they really are in their 
tilakhana.  Bhavana in daily life, at each instant of citta possible 
when there is mindfulness.

The book is full of explanations of how it is developed, complete with 
references you can check with the Tipitaka/Commentaries, and when it's 
printed I will remind you about the address, in the meantime I'm 
afraid you will have to visit my website for a while, in fact even 
after you have the book I will be asking you to continue to do so, as 
my favorite critic still!

Amara

 
4910 From: selamat   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara

 
  Dear Indavati,

Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence
of bhavanga means that it is still upacara."

I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala
nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta.

metta,
selamat
----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati 
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara


> it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
> But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point
>
> Indavati
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : selamat 
> Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37
> Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> Dear Indavati,
> Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
> anumodana.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Indavati 
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> > interpose, would it?
> >
> > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
> means
> > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> > apanna
> >
> > Indavati
> >
>
>

 
4911 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything 
> regarding "death" about an arahant. 


Amara says that only things that are alive, ie with the citta arising 
and falling away, could die.  Rocks and trees don't die, all living 
things do, with the two kinds of death, never the third, which is the 
arahanta's final and absolute death, they do not come back to be 
again.


> Arahats don't die, rather their 
> mind-body continuua cease. 

Everyone's does, but they arise again because of conditions.

> Conventionally we can say that the mind-
> body continuum of one designated arahant has ceased, but applying 
the 
> term "death" to an arahant is a logical absurdity, because they have 
> eradicated avijja, and all the subsequent links in paticca samuppada 
> including old age and death. How can arahata, who have permanently 
> abandoned avijja, ever know death, as death depends on the presence 
> of avijja? 

How is avijja present except in the citta?  When the citta arise and 
fall away, doesn't the avijja?

When the citta falls away without the conditions to arise again, how 
would avijja arise?

Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no more 
avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after nibbana 
but prior to parinibbana.  They continue to have citta arising and 
falling away, to see, hear, but all their kusala and akusala turn to 
kiriya and therefore without vipaka possible, but they have no more 
avijja from the instant they aceive arahantship already.  It does not 
mean they cease to have the citta after all their kilesa have been 
eradicated.

Right?

Amara

 
4912 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday

 
  Oddly inspiring, thanks Khun Amara...

mike

--- Amara  wrote:

> technically there is nothing but
> death: on the very 
> last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'
> ends with the three 
> kinds of death:
> 
> The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away
> of all sakhra-dhamma.
> 
> The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime.
> 
> The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death
> of the arahanta after which there is no more
rebirth.
> 
> Only after the death of the arahanta would there be
> no more death since there would be no more rebirth 
> possible.


 
4913 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:14pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Oddly inspiring, thanks Khun Amara...
> 
> mike


My pleasure, Sir Mike!

Would you care to elaborate?  Love to hear your view!

Thanks in advance,

A.


> --- Amara  wrote:
> 
> > technically there is nothing but
> > death: on the very 
> > last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'
> > ends with the three 
> > kinds of death:
> > 
> > The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away
> > of all sakhra-dhamma.
> > 
> > The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime.
> > 
> > The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death
> > of the arahanta after which there is no more
> rebirth.
> > 
> > Only after the death of the arahanta would there be
> > no more death since there would be no more rebirth 
> > possible.
> 

 
 
4914 From: David Kinney   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: RA channel for

 
  > Just curious, but which tradition?

New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by
Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm
afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land,
received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It was
exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the Dharma
for a while.

Thanks for sharing your views, Erik.

--- Erik wrote:
> --- David Kinney
wrote:
> 
> > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a
> > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up
> putting
> > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic"
> before
> > having even the most basic understandings). 
> 
> I've seen this. And the concomitant "rebound" effect this
> can 
> engender. The temptation is to skip the basics and to go
> straight for 
> the advanced stuff. But that will never work, as it
> appears you have 
> discovered.
> 
> I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that
> temptation for 
> me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been
> well-established in 
> the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be
> "vajrayanic." It is 
> either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. You
> can't choose 
> it; it chooses you. Just curious, but which tradition?
> 
> > So, I have
> > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of
> the
> > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP.  Robert K. has
> > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
> 
> The very best place to spend one's time, IMO, and if you
> are one of 
> those "chosen" by Vajrayana, you are still best served
> this way. 
> Tantra, for example, requires this foundation be firmly
> established--
> and in particular that one understand emptiness/anatta
> very well 
> first.
> 
> My approach has always been very eclectic. I take from
> all the major 
> traditions of the Buddhadharma. Each system has a unique
> angle, and I 
> have found comparing these angles to be a very effective
> way to 
> discover what is being pointed at, because they're ALL
> pointing at 
> the same thing. This is a favored approach of many Indian
> panditas 
> because it can illuminate many things one might have
> otherwise 
> missed, and is also a central pedagogical strategy in the
> Tibetan 
> Geluk school, where you study several other schools'
> interpretations 
> and perform hermeneutical analysis on the texts to
> unravel their 
> meaning.
> 
> For me, this is also an exercise in forging my own
> version of the 
> Dharma, because I am unsatisfied with all the major
> schools in some 
> dimension--at least as vehicles for my own accumulations.
> I have as 
> much affinity for Theravada as I do for Tibetan, and my
> wish is to 
> unify these two major currents of Dharma into one in my
> own 
> understanding (though keeping them well-separated too,
> given the very 
> different strategies each employs).
> 
> Erik
> 



 
4915 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala  
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 396

 
  Dear Marlon,
Yes, it is true that one might turn to Buddhism because of adverse
circumstances in one's life. But to translate that into Buddhist terms, it
means that conditions have led one to begin to realize the nature of dukkha,
the unsatisfactoriness of life. Impermance and Anatta are harder for the
total beginner to see at first than dukkha. There are many ways in which
dukkha manifests for each of us. While for some, tragic circumstances, or
being in a rut as you call it, may be the condition which might lead one to
begin the path, for others the conditions might be totally different. But
for all, it is a beginning realization that life is dukkha, so what, if
anything, can be done about it? This is in no way a negative thing. Rather,
it is the first step, the realization that something is wrong. It is also
the first step on the 8 Fold Path which BEGINS with that first bit of
understanding. Such a realization is not a wrong frame of mind or wrong view
by any means. Look at the life story of the Buddha: he began to feel that
same sense of dukkha, unsatisfactoriness, on his first trip outside his
palace where, for the first time, he saw old age, sickness and death.

Also, we each have lots of conditions from countless lifetimes, so the
cumulative growth of panna for each of us will be different as well.
However, it is the rise of panna in each of us, when the conditions are
right for it, that will ultimately confirm for us the truth in the Tipitika
as nothing else can.

With metta,
Betty

__________________________
>
> Headless Chickens-----
> Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
> personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same
> defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
> stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
> with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
> anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
>
> The Fugitive------
> Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
> They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it
> has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
> religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
> without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety
> we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
> Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
> not just little pieces you fancy.
>
>

 
4916 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything 
> > regarding "death" about an arahant. 

> Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no 
more 
> avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after 
nibbana 
> but prior to parinibbana. 

I was just going by the teaching that when there is no avijja there 
can be no old age & death. Unless that should be qualified with the 
idea that the existing process still has to run its course, though it 
will never arise again. This seems to be getting closer to what you 
said, and makes more sense to me. Sorry for that little digression 
into near-speculation on my part. I don't know why I'm bothering with 
stuff like this when I have much bigger fish to fry--invloving lobha 
and dosa--at the moment.

 
4917 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- Amara  wrote:

> Would you care to elaborate?  Love to hear your
> view!

Well, really just a not-particularly-wholesome liking
for things that smack of cessation, I guess--probably
some kind of vibhava tanha.  Nothing much to
elaborate, really!

mike


 
4918 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 
> > > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything 
> > > regarding "death" about an arahant. 
> 
> > Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no 
> more 
> > avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after 
> nibbana 
> > but prior to parinibbana. 
> 
> I was just going by the teaching that when there is no avijja there 
> can be no old age & death. Unless that should be qualified with the 
> idea that the existing process still has to run its course, though 
it 
> will never arise again. This seems to be getting closer to what you 
> said, and makes more sense to me. Sorry for that little digression 
> into near-speculation on my part. I don't know why I'm bothering 
with 
> stuff like this when I have much bigger fish to fry--invloving lobha 
> and dosa--at the moment.


Please don't apologize, we do it all the time, and it was interesting. 
 We can discuss anything with chandha and some kusala, to learn about 
the truth, which is always beneficial.  Sometimes speculations could 
lead to a different perspective of the same teachings, and I really 
thank everyone who has ever asked me dhamma questions, whether I knew 
the answers or not!

A.

 
4919 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> --- Amara  wrote:
> 
> > Would you care to elaborate?  Love to hear your
> > view!
> 
> Well, really just a not-particularly-wholesome liking
> for things that smack of cessation, I guess--probably
> some kind of vibhava tanha.  Nothing much to
> elaborate, really!
> 
> mike


Very sobering, Sir Mike,

Thank you again,

Amara

 
4920 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 0:15am
Subject: Re: RA channel for

 
  --- David Kinney  wrote:
> > Just curious, but which tradition?
> 
> New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by
> Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm
> afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land,
> received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It was
> exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the Dharma
> for a while.

Just FYI, I have strong reservations about what is being taught under 
the guise of the Dharma at the various NKT centers. There has been 
much controversy about the NKT and its approach, and I wouldn't go 
near that organization given its history and some of the totally 
unacceptable statements made by the NKT's main preceptor regarding 
the Dalai Lama--totally out of line with every teaching from the 
Buddha on down on sammavaca, and dangerously close to fomenting a 
schism in the Sangha. I find this chapter of my own lineage's history 
very sad, and something best left in medieval Tibet.

There is also the danger of going in to tantra unprepared, which it 
sounds like you experienced. There has been a tendency for teachers 
to hand out abhishekhas like candy, and this is a grave error, 
because as it is said teachers who grant such abhishekhas to those 
lacking the appropriate prerequisites are like oxen yoked to their 
sudents: when the student goes off the cliff, so does the teacher.

As you know, tantra is nuclear-fusion-powerful but also extremely 
dangerous medicine, and without the proper preparations, it is 
possible one will experience all sorts of nasty side-effects. For 
example, if you kick open the Kundalini without the appropriate 
foundations in place, you can be in for an very rough ride. Once it's 
open, you no longer have any choice but to deal with it, and best, 
hitch your wagon to it, and this is the domain of tantra. Don't know 
if that happened for you or not, but sounds like you experienced some 
real frustration and feel shortchanged.

As you may be aware, even WITH the proper preparations this is a 
difficult path. In my experience "brutal" is more appropriate. Tantra 
may be the "short path," but given there are no shortcuts with the 
Dharma, EVER, you just get all your akusala crap coming out all at 
once, which can at times be excruciating (though you do get stuff 
over with more quickly this way).

I am only mentioning this because you had the accumulations to 
connect with this system at one point, and there may come a time when 
you will be forced back into it due to physiological changes arising 
from your own spiritual practice. I don't know your situation; I am 
only suggesting not tossing the baby with the bathwater. Tantra, 
properly applied, can accelerate progress like nothing else I've come 
across in my own experience, and is particularly well-suited to a 
materialistic world and to lay practitioners living in "barbarian" 
culture.

 
4921 From: David Kinney   
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 0:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: RA channel for

 
  I agree with much of what you are saying. There is a big
danger in the Western world with regards to Tantra; it is
advertised and looked upon as the MacDonald's of
enlightenment. We see, "quick path" and we think, yup,
that's the path for me, screw this "countless lifetimes"
stuff, I want to be enlightened NOW!!! Too late do we
realise that's not how it works and not at ALL what "quick
path" really means.

I've accepted that I will have to deal with the karmic
results of the practice, so I'll weather that storm when
the time comes--or not...

And yes, it is one approach to deal with the world in its
current form, but as you so importantly pointed out, NOT
without the proper fundamental training first.

Thanks for your insight,

Dave

--- Erik wrote:
> --- David Kinney
wrote:
> > > Just curious, but which tradition?
> > 
> > New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by
> > Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm
> > afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land,
> > received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It
> was
> > exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the
> Dharma
> > for a while.
> 
> Just FYI, I have strong reservations about what is being
> taught under 
> the guise of the Dharma at the various NKT centers. There
> has been 
> much controversy about the NKT and its approach, and I
> wouldn't go 
> near that organization given its history and some of the
> totally 
> unacceptable statements made by the NKT's main preceptor
> regarding 
> the Dalai Lama--totally out of line with every teaching
> from the 
> Buddha on down on sammavaca, and dangerously close to
> fomenting a 
> schism in the Sangha. I find this chapter of my own
> lineage's history 
> very sad, and something best left in medieval Tibet.
> 
> There is also the danger of going in to tantra
> unprepared, which it 
> sounds like you experienced. There has been a tendency
> for teachers 
> to hand out abhishekhas like candy, and this is a grave
> error, 
> because as it is said teachers who grant such abhishekhas
> to those 
> lacking the appropriate prerequisites are like oxen yoked
> to their 
> sudents: when the student goes off the cliff, so does the
> teacher.
> 
> As you know, tantra is nuclear-fusion-powerful but also
> extremely 
> dangerous medicine, and without the proper preparations,
> it is 
> possible one will experience all sorts of nasty
> side-effects. For 
> example, if you kick open the Kundalini without the
> appropriate 
> foundations in place, you can be in for an very rough
> ride. Once it's 
> open, you no longer have any choice but to deal with it,
> and best, 
> hitch your wagon to it, and this is the domain of tantra.
> Don't know 
> if that happened for you or not, but sounds like you
> experienced some 
> real frustration and feel shortchanged.
> 
> As you may be aware, even WITH the proper preparations
> this is a 
> difficult path. In my experience "brutal" is more
> appropriate. Tantra 
> may be the "short path," but given there are no shortcuts
> with the 
> Dharma, EVER, you just get all your akusala crap coming
> out all at 
> once, which can at times be excruciating (though you do
> get stuff 
> over with more quickly this way).
> 
> I am only mentioning this because you had the
> accumulations to 
> connect with this system at one point, and there may come
> a time when 
> you will be forced back into it due to physiological
> changes arising 
> from your own spiritual practice. I don't know your
> situation; I am 
> only suggesting not tossing the baby with the bathwater.
> Tantra, 
> properly applied, can accelerate progress like nothing
> else I've come 
> across in my own experience, and is particularly
> well-suited to a 
> materialistic world and to lay practitioners living in
> "barbarian" 
> culture.
> 


 
4922 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday

 
  Thanks, Mike! All these birthday wishes are becoming almost an embarrassment 
of riches.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 4/25/01 7:10:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mike nease writes:


> Ditto, Howard,
> 
> A very happy birthday, sir!
> 
> mike
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4923 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 4/25/01 7:54:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard 
writes:


> Howard:
>        Thank you! Please intend 'critic' to mean "analyst", ho